TrueLife - Uprising - Cannabis, CounterCulture, & Germany

Starting point is 00:00:01 Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear, through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

Starting point is 00:00:39 The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini, check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody is having a beautiful day. I hope the sun is shining. I hope the birds are sitting. I hope the wind is at your back. I hope you got a nice cup of coffee, a cold drink,

Starting point is 00:01:20 or maybe you found a little bit of cannabis to roll up because we're going to get into this today. We're talking to the one and only Dr. Andy Mansfield. We may have our good friend Matt Richie joining us. So let me just welcome everyone to today's episode where we're going to dive into the evolving world of cannabis with two incredible guests. Joining us is Dr. Andy Mansfeld, a German-born U.S. race physician

Starting point is 00:01:41 whose journey has spanned continents and industries. After years of practicing medicine in Colorado, and he pivoted to the business side of healthcare, eventually co-founding a medical cannabis cultivation business in Portugal. His mission, who unlocked the therapeutic potential of cannabis and approved patient care worldwide. Also, who may or may not be joining us today, Matt, if you're out there jumping, you got the link.

Starting point is 00:02:03 Also with us could be Matt Richie, entrepreneur and founder of Inner Circle, a community dedicated to raising the standard of integrity in the cannabis industry. Matt's vision goes beyond business. He's creating spaces for leaders to grow, learn, and collaborate in an industry that's both rapidly expanding and facing unique challenges. Today, we will explore the intersection of medicine, business leadership, and the future of cannabis in a conversation filled with insight, speculation, and innovation.

Starting point is 00:02:29 Dr. Andy, thanks so much for being here today. How are you? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me again. How are you? I'm doing great, man. Thanks for asking. I just recently made this move from Hawaii to.

Starting point is 00:02:41 the Bay Area and it's been nothing short of spectacular in so many ways. It's such a growing experience. And when I think of growing, I think of cannabis, man. What's shaking on your side? I mean, I'm staying busy. I've got my company over here at EU Canada jobs where we are trying to job posts and recruiting for the cannabis industry in Europe. So we're busy. There's a lot happening in Europe. So a lot of companies are coming and either being started in Europe or trying to come over from North America over here. So definitely a lot of activity over here. How is it, you say there's lots of companies that are moving over that way to open up. Is that because of the fertile ground that the EU is for cannabis right now? Like, is it, is it a good time?

Starting point is 00:03:36 to start jumping over there? Is it, is it, you know, a sort of blue ocean over there? Or how come people are jumping ship and headed over your way? I wouldn't say it's a blue ocean as much as I wish I could. Right. Yeah, there's turbulent waters, but, you know, there's, there is more, more sunlight on the horizon than maybe, you know, in the recent past. So, like in Germany, for instance, cannabis has been illegal since 2017, but now just since April 1st of this year, we've had fully legal cannabis in Germany. You can't buy it anywhere, but you can grow it yourself at home and you can have it on your body, you can have it at home, and it's completely illegal. So, you know, there's a lot of stuff happening, a lot of other countries are opening up

Starting point is 00:04:36 opening up to medical cannabis and looking at different types of legalization on their own. Switzerland now has recreational sales in the form of pilot projects. And Germany's looking at that. Chavre Public is looking at it. So there's a lot going on. But there's a lot of politics, just like in the U.S. involved and all of this. So, Germany two years ago was saying, or three years ago, was saying they're going to come up with a full recreational market. And then the EU and internal politics got involved and kind of put a kibosh on that. So you've had this roller coaster ride like every country's cannabis journey is a roller coaster, it seems like.

Starting point is 00:05:27 And so that's what it's been here too. But I think for investors and companies, they're seeing that things have progressed to a certain point where they feel more comfortable starting to look at investing here again. Yeah. I'm sure it's multifaceted. However, what is it in government? Is it an idea of regulation? Is it an idea of commercialization? Is it all these things sort of tied together?

Starting point is 00:06:00 People are sort of trying to figure out where they fit into the supply chain. Is it all of it? Or is there something in particular that seems to be one of the biggest obstacles in the way of getting not only recreational but full legalization? Yeah, I mean, it's kind of funny and sad in a way. I mean, if you were to take out the difference in language and take out some of the names and you can just kind of make it a little bit. more generic, then the arguments and the stuff that people are saying would sound very similar from one country to the next country to the U.S., from one state to the next state in the U.S. You know, all these things that were being said 10, 20 years ago in the U.S. about if you legalize,

Starting point is 00:06:45 all the kids are going to be smoking pot everywhere. Everyone's going to be crashing their cars. They're so high. And everyone's going to turn into heroin addicts. And, you know, I can't even remember what else all this crap is that people are saying. All the same stuff is being said here. You know, and it's like, well, I mean, you've got two very large countries. Well, one very large country in Canada's population in Canada is not that huge.

Starting point is 00:07:10 But, you know, you've got North America with two large countries who have gone through this process. And I mean, the U.S. not as a whole, but on many different state levels. And you've got tons of data showing that less kids smoke pot then and less car accidents from drunk driving, less people dying from. overdoses on other drugs, both prescription drugs and other recreational drugs like heroin stuff. Yeah, so the data is out there showing that it actually is better for society, yeah. Yeah. Yet people over here are saying the same ridiculous stuff, you know, and it's like you have

Starting point is 00:07:48 to laugh at it, but it's sad, yeah. But one of the big arguments actually that, especially in Germany and now other European countries have been making is that in order to protect children, you need to have to hear of the black market. And that's one of the big arguments because, I mean, a dealer doesn't care if he's selling until a 15 year old or 30 year old. Either way, it's against the law, you know, and so they don't necessarily differentiate. Maybe if you do, but I think most don't. That and then the other big argument was that it's a health concern that an unregulated market, you know, the, the people are going to be using it and buying it from the black market you don't know how poisonous

Starting point is 00:08:31 this this cannabis is with uh whatever pesticides heavy metals whatever you know anything can be in it because once again it's illegal so they don't care you know the dealers and they don't care so that was the other big point is if people are going to be using it really it's a public health issue if it's not controlled somehow and regulate it um And that seems to have been an argument that many people could buy into, both in the public, both in the government, all the other governments in different countries are now, you know, they're all kind of saying the same thing now and the same, speaking from the same playbook, so to speak. And it makes sense, you know. In the U.S., I don't know, I don't know if those arguments were really made. I feel like in the U.S. it was more of a personal freedom and a financial thing, you know, that.

Starting point is 00:09:26 that look, we can get a bunch of tax money and fix all our government woes. Although, of course, you give more money to the government, they still going to need more money. This is a bottomless pit, you know. So, but, you know, I think there in the U.S. It wasn't a healthy address as an health thing, but more as a tax money and, yeah, personal freedom kind of thing. Yeah, it's, I'm excited for it. I think that, I think that there is plenty of room for everybody. You know, and I really wish that there could be more influence and that we could somehow,

Starting point is 00:10:14 I know there's a lot of argumentation about preexisting products on the market. Like, let's say alcohol is probably big alcohol, big farmers probably worried about this new thing coming in and elbowing out. some of the profits. However, there's plenty of room for everybody. Like, I don't see why some of the alcohol companies can't start getting behind cannabis infused drinks. I don't see why some of the medical or big pharma industry can't get their arms wrapped around some of these incredible experiments that are happening with epilepsy. Like, there's tons of applications for this, and there's enough for everybody. So if indeed the argument that big boys are trying to sort of crowd out the small guy, you know, I think that there's enough for everybody out there. And once we start

Starting point is 00:10:55 figuring that out. Once we start kind of coming from a place of abundance instead of scarcity, I think we're starting going to have more of an adult view of what this industry can be. And I think that we've seen it in Canada. I know that we're seeing it here in where I am in California in different parts of it. Yeah, there's some bumps along the way, but there's plenty for everybody. Like, what's your take on that? Is there, is there infighting going on between people or do you think we're going to start embracing the idea of sort of abundance when it comes to industries like psychedelics and cannabis. Yeah. I mean, here in Europe, you're not saying it yet because it's still very niche and quite small. But certainly you're seeing in the U.S. You know, I mean, the studies

Starting point is 00:11:36 are coming out now saying people are drinking less alcohol. Yep. And they have the data to show that people are saying, I'm drinking less alcohol because I'm using cannabis. You know, so first, people were saying, oh, you know, if it affects alcohol, you know, it won't be necessary because of cannabis. But now literally they have the surveys where people are, yeah, I don't drink as much or I drink quit drinking. I just use cannabis. I mean, that surprised me. A lot of things about cannabis have surprised me, including that it can be, it's being used for all kinds of mental health conditions and things. So, you know, that's where the power of studies and information comes, it is, is that

Starting point is 00:12:13 no one knows exactly where anything's going to end up. And until you look at it and collect data, and then you say, oh, that's surprising. So here you aren't seeing that yet. But I mean, I think, I think the whole, the way the whole world is built up on this system of you have to grow and always have to get more money in order to be considered okay. I mean, even society is built up on if your economy isn't growing, then it's the end of the world, which leads to this whole concept of everyone has to keep purchasing more crap. you know why can't we say you know i don't need a ton of new clothing every year i don't need to spend a ton of money every year buying things once i have my house it's full of furniture why do i need all this more stuff right you know what what do i really need more of i need more food i need more stuff to drink maybe more cannabis or other recreation or whatever but i mean

Starting point is 00:13:16 i don't need i need maybe more toilet bear but i mean i don't need why do i need three thousand dollars worth of new new clothing and furniture every year i mean then i have to throw away the old stuff but that's the way society is even built up and same with you know these alcohol companies are like well if we're not growing then we're out of business like well why not say okay we used to be a three billion dollar company but we're going to but the economy or economics isn't going to work that way anymore um so now we're going to be a two point five billion dollar company um But we're still going to be making a ton of profit. But they're like, no, if we lose market share, then somehow the world has ended for them.

Starting point is 00:14:01 Which, I mean, I'm not an economics person. And sure, some economics people are going to listen to this and say, you just don't understand the system. And I'm sure that's stuff I don't understand. But, you know, it's just like I used to make a ton more money being a doctor than I make now. So, you know, I mean, I mean. doesn't mean the end of the world. It just means I spend less money, you know. But that's not the way systems work, unfortunately.

Starting point is 00:14:33 I mean, if you look at hunter-gatherer tribes, they don't go gather more and more food. They're like, what do we need? Oh, we got what we need. Well, okay. They don't build bigger and more house. They're like, we all have a place to sleep. We don't need more than they have more free time to do whatever they want to do.

Starting point is 00:14:51 have their ceremonies or whatever, you know, but somehow the modern world is decided you have to keep accumulating crap. Yeah. And that's the same with the companies, you know. They don't want to split the pie. Yeah. Yeah. It makes perfect sense.

Starting point is 00:15:07 You know, I can't help but think about the relationship between cannabis and creativity. And what you're explaining to me seems to when we look at the world as it's kind of been for a while, especially in a world that runs on alcohol and caffeine. I think that what you're seeing is a world of mass consumption. Profit margins and companies are built on excess consumption, and the drugs we've been running on have been caffeine, a little bit of nicotine, and alcohol. These are perfect drugs in order to run a mindless society.

Starting point is 00:15:41 You know what I mean? Like you just get wasted and then you get some energy to finish making this widget at the widget shop. You come home and you pass out and you wake up and do it again. It's mindless. So is growth on that level. It's mindless. But I think you're in a very unique position where you are. And thank you for taking the leap of courage to live a life worth meaning by doing something you love doing. And when you look at EU Canada jobs, let's shift gears and talk about what EU Canada jobs is and maybe some of the opportunities and changes you see on the horizon. Maybe you can start off by defining what you're doing now, what EU Canada job is. And we can jump into that. Yeah, yeah, sure. Thanks. So EECAN. jobs we've been around three, four years, something like that. And like you mentioned at the

Starting point is 00:16:26 beginning, I was first involved in cultivation project here in Portugal and realized then that it was very difficult to find people to work in the cannabis industry here in Europe. And being familiar with a lot of big platforms in the U.S., I was like, well, this is a niche that is asking to be filled or a gap that's asking to be filled. And so started a U.C.C. jobs and we do two things we are jobs platforms where people can post their jobs for for a low amount just 50 euros a month per job which is really cheap you know and that allows startups and uh even bigger companies who are looking for entry level people a cheap easy solution to try and find workers um and then we also do recruiting you know for the top higher level positions and certainly right now in

Starting point is 00:17:15 cannabis um recruiting is quite important because There aren't that many candidates necessarily. So if a company is looking for a specific, more experienced, higher technical skilled person, tends to require having a recruiter who can go out and actively go, talk to, reach out to candidates, say, hey, I know you might not be looking right now, but, hey, would you consider switching jobs or companies? So I think right now, because it's such a new industry, that's important. And so that's what we're doing.

Starting point is 00:17:53 We're connecting companies with people who are looking for jobs or we're helping find those people for the companies. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I would love to hear about some of the opportunities you see on the horizon. One that I have seen recently is I talked to William Zorn, who's a younger guy, super smart. He's on the ball and he's sort of a Twitch gamer. And he's been working with the cannabis injury. On some level, you know, I think we're always on the lookout for what can evolve.

Starting point is 00:18:23 And one that I see that maybe no one, not a whole lot of people are talking about is the sort of relationship between gaming and cannabis. You know, like who hasn't had some cannabis and played a great video game? Like there's a big part of awareness that comes from ingesting some cannabis. Like maybe the colors are a little brighter. Maybe you think a little bit different. Maybe you're more creative. Maybe you're more intuitive. Like that's something that I see on the horizon.

Starting point is 00:18:48 And that could be a strategy for people to start looking into. So all my friends at Inner Circle, Matt Ritchie, I'm looking at you, man. What are you doing with cannabis and the gaming industry? But Andy, what else? Have you thought about that? And what are some other cool things you kind of see on the horizon? Yeah, I mean, I hadn't thought about that per se. But, you know, I think, I mean, a lot of it really depends on where the legal situation ends up going here in Europe.

Starting point is 00:19:11 So now we've got just as of July 1st in Germany, you've got cannabis social clubs, but they're just now starting to get licensed and stuff like that in a few places. But that doesn't create a ton of jobs. But if the recreational were to come through, then all of a sudden you're going to have dispensaries and more logistics and distribution people and all these different things, which would open up. And dispensaries would be amazing. because dispensaries are great for entry-level people.

Starting point is 00:19:44 Right. It's a great way for people to get into the industry and you know, you bust your butt and you're a salesperson somewhere else or your brand not even sales, but you can get into a dispensary and work your way up to dispensary manager and from there through the organization, all of a sudden you've got more and more opportunities because right now there's not a ton of entry-level stuff in cannabis. So that's one of the reasons I was really hopeful for dispensaries. I mean, despite not just the whole recreational aspect of it, but for jobs, it just opens up so much entry-level stuff for people, you know.

Starting point is 00:20:19 Yeah. Because it is, it can be so difficult for people to get into the industry right now. You know, but where, what kind of like innovative, interesting kind of stuff? I don't know if there's going to be, I mean, there always will be stuff that comes up that no one's not coming. I didn't see anything. But I don't know that Germany is going to have or Europe's going to have anything hugely innovative right now because we're going down this path of medical cannabis right now and following that path. And it's very regulated and a fairly straight path. There's not a lot of room in Europe right now to go off and do a lot of innovative work.

Starting point is 00:21:08 like even edibles are for the most part not allowed in most European countries due to novel food laws in the EU and things like that. A lot of the things that, a lot of the places where you had innovation or still have innovation in the U.S., you don't have the much room for. Here, I guess it would be the innovative part would be more on the extraction and formulation side. mode of transport mode of ingestion uh like inhaled products and things like that maybe um which is all interesting and stuff but these are then people who have a big background in medical devices and in pharma basically you know yeah so once again not necessarily a lot of room for for a lot of other people to jump in i would say yeah you know you know For guys like us who have seen the evolution of our relationship with cannabis.

Starting point is 00:22:16 You know, when we were young, you would go to Chewy down the street and get a bag of white widow, you know, or something crazy. You didn't really know what it was. Sometimes you got it's a cannabis. It's a sativa. You know, you didn't really know, man, but you got it. And your friend's buddy had it. Your friend's older brother had it. And now you have like these incredible apps with like a turp profile or, you know, that there's so much more.

Starting point is 00:22:38 know about the cannabinoid system and profiles and like it's maybe you could tell our listeners and our audience about some of the changes that you have seen because i'm sure they've been pretty profound where you're at in germany yeah well i mean i think like you said you know just the amount of knowledge that's out there and that that is just continuing it i mean the basic knowledge is exploding. When we were young, I mean, there was no one even, I don't even know when the term entourage effect came out, you know, but it wasn't around when we were young. You know, I mean, you were just high. You got high off of the heavens. And now it's like, oh, well, you're breaking it down and like you said chirping and minor can have been like, CHC and CBD and how it all interacts

Starting point is 00:23:29 to the entourage effect, it's like, huh? Yeah. And now, you know, one of the big questions is, are turpines a big part of the entourage effect or not? And people are really trying to do some of the basic science to figure this stuff out. And, I mean, I think that's really interesting. In the end, I think it's something that we're going to need AI to help us figure out. Yeah. You've got so, you've got hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands, probably, of different compounds at different levels to end up

Starting point is 00:23:58 with some effect at the end. And I think it's just so complicated that it's something that our little brains can't really figure out, you know. But I think the amount of knowledge that's out there on the basic science side is one the biggest changes now. Also, all these studies that are coming out, medical studies, where you're seeing, like I mentioned earlier, you know, mental health problems. I kind of always thought that it was clear to me it would be great for chronic pain,

Starting point is 00:24:28 maybe some other things for a long time. It's been looking like it would be good for epilepsy and children and things like that. For MS, muscle problems. But for me, one of the bigger surprises is that can help people with bipolar and schizophrenia and even depression and things like that. Because, you know, when we were younger, it was just common myth was that it makes you depressed and lazy and all these things, which has now also been shown through studies not to be the case. But I bought into it.

Starting point is 00:24:59 So I was like, well, it's not going to help your depression. We'll make your depression worse, which no, it's not the case. Yeah. So I think just all this knowledge that's coming out and information that is showing us that even what we believed, you know, it's not the case. And I think, you know, I think the world is a better place for it. Medicine, well, patients are in a better position for it. It'd just be nice to see society and governments and medicine as a whole actually look at the data and then make decisions based off of that versus off of fear mongering and the old myths, which have been disproven for the most part. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:46 It's really well said. And it kind of it brings up this question. It's not directly, I guess maybe it is directly related. in your opinion, and we're just two guys talking here, no one's prescribing anything, and we're not giving any medical advice or anything. However, I'm curious to get your opinion on some level. Isn't it weird, like the terminology we use?

Starting point is 00:26:06 Like, when you do, if you smoke cannabis or you do some mushrooms, like you get high. And when I think of being high, I think of getting my perspective changed. I think of seeing things in a different way, kind of looking down without a whole lot of the emotion, but seeing things clearly. And how much,

Starting point is 00:26:23 of the medical, like, effects of cannabis are from having a new perspective about your life. Like, it doesn't really make you depressed or lazy. It may make you upset about the life you're living, but that's different than depression. Like you may see, you may say clearly for the first time. When you get high, you have a perspective of like, holy shit, what am I doing?

Starting point is 00:26:45 I'm gonna get up and leave my family every single day to go make a handful of dimes from some guy that I hate in a job I don't like doing. What a hell am I doing? Like, that's enough to start changing your life a little bit. Like, how much of these particular plant medicines aren't causing problems, but just causing a shift in perspective to help us live a better life? Well, I mean, I think, you know, if you look at the medical side of cannabis, you know,

Starting point is 00:27:10 I think you don't even need to get high actually to get the benefits of medical cannabis. Right, well said. And, you know, it's quite the opposite, you know, probably for most conditions, and they more balanced CBD THC profile, it's probably better than super high THC where you're just super high. It's just typically, most of the times that's what studies are showing that,

Starting point is 00:27:35 yeah, being super high isn't what makes tango. It's the combination of all the materiality in it. But I think what's really interesting is all the information now coming out about psychedelics. And those, I think, those are more, you don't have to be super high on psychedelics, apparently, to get this change. But they, it's the change like you were describing, you know, the change in attitude or the way you view things.

Starting point is 00:28:04 Somehow, you know, the effects of the psychedelics kind of rewire your brain a little bit and let you see things from a different perspective. And that's what allows psychedelics apparently to really be helpful for PTSD and severe depression and these other things that are not being. that are not responding to any other treatments, but all of a sudden, this complete, like a rewiring of the brain or something, you know, allows people to make progress with these severe mental health conditions that up until then,

Starting point is 00:28:39 the people weren't making any progress with any of the traditional, you know, pills, basically. Yeah, that brings up an interesting point. You know, we spoke briefly about the cannabinoid system, and really not, because it's so complex, we don't thoroughly understand the mechanism of action. However, isn't that also true for the majority of science and pills people take? Like SSRIs, like, yeah, we know serotonin, we know this thing,

Starting point is 00:29:07 but we don't thoroughly understand the mechanism of action of what's happening in those particular compounds either, do we? No, for the most part, when mental health drugs, we don't know what the hell's going on. That's so crazy, right? I mean, like blood pressure pills and stuff, they're like, oh, we know almost down to where, which molecules are being affected to open up different pathways in each cell and blah, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff with blood pressure pills and things like that.

Starting point is 00:29:35 But yeah, for mental health stuff, it's like, oh, somehow it works. And that's about all we know, you know. And yeah, it's, it's crazy. It's scary in a way. But it's also why, I mean, that's also why we don't really understand to a large degree why some people respond to depression medicines and not to others. And even within the same group of SSRIs, you might try three different ones before you find one that works for someone, you know, even though technically there's, they're all doing the same thing in the body as far as we can tell. But then all of a sudden one works and the other's done. They actually have had genetic testing out for over a decade now where you can actually do genetic tests, which can help figure out which depressants will and will not work for you potentially, which is a step in the right direction, too.

Starting point is 00:30:33 But in the end, like you said, we don't really understand why most mental health medications work. So it's weird. And I think that this is the secret that so many people. are trying to to keep in the background. And I think psychedelics, cannabis, and just consciousness itself is, is sort of a threat to that. Like, the truth is we, we don't know what happens. And when you start showing like all these tests with cannabis, like, hey, here's this cannabinoaism. It's really complex. You don't understand it. Then you start thinking like, well, what the hell's up with SSRI? It's like one thought leads to the next. And I think that that is what a big part of

Starting point is 00:31:15 pharma and you know governments are afraid of is like listen man we've been running on a narrative for a long time you know a long time we've been lying to people about it maybe lying's not the right word maybe we've had great intentions to help people and we're trying to do that but we don't know and we don't want to tell people we don't know we're running away from like the very thing that would free us on some level i see the narrative seems to be the most important part of our drug policy. Is that too far out there? Do you think that maybe cannabis, maybe psychedelists expose this idea that we really don't know what we're doing. And a lot of these studies are our company science. I mean, I don't, I don't think it's that much of a conspiracy per se. I mean, I would say, yeah,

Starting point is 00:32:02 I would say, and also you're giving politicians a bit too much credit for being that smart. That's so true. You know, I mean, they all have their own motivations, most of which. which are not good and pure, let's put it that way. But, you know, the drug companies just want to keep making more money. They don't give a rest, that's about the patients at the end. You know, they're not part of the conspiracy with the government, except for, yeah, they're trying to tell the government to not allow cannabis,

Starting point is 00:32:30 but because they're like, oh, well, we're going to lose money. Because people will use that instead of buying our pills, so we don't want it. And then they give money to politicians and say, here, here's 50 grand or 100, grand or whatever for your election campaign just vote against cannabis yeah so i mean that's that's that's that is a conspiracy of sorts but i don't think it goes much deeper than that and then the politicians they're just like oh so it gave me a hundred grand to be anti-cannabis i'm anti-canamus yeah they don't even think about it they don't care yeah they just care that song gave them a check that or they've always been anti-canibus because it's the devil's weed and said they're going to

Starting point is 00:33:10 stay anti-cannabis, they don't care one bit what the evidence shows, you know, because they're a good person. They're against it. They're a good person, you know, and then they drink and drive and then they're white, you know, and they're a good person, and this week's about here as a bad person. And so, I mean, it's just the hypocrisy and stuff, but like I said, I think you're given too much credit to think that they're all in some complex thought process. about this. Yeah, they're just, they're just greedy, shallow people in the end, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, that's most then.

Starting point is 00:33:49 Which is actually giving them a compliment in a way. Yeah, it's classic. It's like the old George Carlin joke. Don't do, don't do their drugs. Do our drugs. You know what I mean? It's so funny to think about. But. Well, and you know, the whole concept that that a plant, that grows naturally is somehow so, so dangerous, but things that are completely created in the laboratory that have no natural precursor. Somehow that is safer and better for your health than taking a medication that literally grows on a plant in the sun. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:34:35 I mean, you know, that's, that's, that's the craziest part about it. How did that? It'd be like saying, you know, the super processed food is healthier than the whole vegetable. And it's like, it's actually people believe for a while too. Now people are finally turning back to, oh, we should eat whole grains and fresh fruits and vegetables and not stuff out of a can. Yeah. You know what? That's a brilliant point.

Starting point is 00:35:01 Isn't that interesting? Like we see these changes happening, not only in the cannabis industry, but in the world. Like, you're right. We are moving back. It seems like we've, on some level, at least yourself and me and Tazarello and all these people in the chat over here, it seems that we have figured out, okay, we've gone way too far down this road of processed foods, sheep garbage and consumption. Let's start pulling back. And we see it, like, let's do a little more farm to table. Let's maybe worry about the plant instead of them. Do you see this as maybe a generational shift that's happening? Or when you pan back and look at the big picture, is that what we're seeing, a change in attitude or a change in generations, like a generational shift towards something bigger. I think we are, and I certainly hope we are. I mean, you know, it was, you know, the baby boomers are the ones that, you know, kind of destroyed the world. My generation is kind of the generation that started opening our eyes, and now the generation that's a couple behind me, you know, the young people are the ones who are now saying,

Starting point is 00:36:04 you guys fucked us. Yeah. Fuck the world. We've fucked us. And we now we're inheriting a world that may not be around long enough for us to live out our natural life. And so as a whole, I think the younger generations are saying, you know, this can't keep going on. We can't, we don't need all this plastic. We need a place to breathe and grow food and stuff. So, I mean, it is a generational change, I think. Yeah. Is it too late? I mean, probably never too late, but certainly a lot of damage has been done, you know?

Starting point is 00:36:43 Yeah. It's interesting to think about. I have on a, on a similar vein of thought, I was recently speaking with Dr. Brad Stewart about palliative care and the role of cannabis and psychedelics in palliative care. You know, and isn't it interesting how. sometimes a trip or a high dose of cannabis, especially if you eat, it can definitely have the same effect. But it can help sort of ease the tension or ease the shame or ease the fear of death on some level. And whether it's a fear of you as an individual dying, a fear of your company dying, a fear of your ideas dying. Like, do you guys talk about that over in Europe, the use of psychedelics or cannabis towards end of life?

Starting point is 00:37:35 Yeah, I mean, it's definitely being looked at here and there's studies happening over here just like they have been in the U.S. I'm not really very familiar in touch with what's happening there. And part of that is, I mean, I'm very interested in it. But at the point, that's not a lot of jobs. being produced in that area and and although i want my company to be more involved in that area when yeah when it's time to start trying to fill positions um i don't want to get too distracted from what we're working on now you know because it's easy to right right to just get you know get distracted but it is there is a lot of research being done over here about that also and

Starting point is 00:38:18 it is very interesting um yeah and the studies about end of life stuff with psychedelics now um I'm paraphrasing, obviously, but basically that helps people lose that fear of death, you know, after they've used psychedelics. And I don't remember exactly what it was or what the people would describe, but basically, they had a trip, and then they're like, yeah, I'm not worried about dying anymore, you know. I'm fine with it. That's incredible, you know, because, I mean, obviously, that's one of the worst things about dying is the fear of it. Yeah. Yeah. That seems to me to be one of the biggest audiences or the biggest target markets for anything moving forward is like the aging group of baby boomers. And what like if you have this target audience with a little bit of disposable income, you know, you see so many of them clutching at the straws of longevity. Like, oh, if I can just get this, you know, I've been reading these studies about rapamycin or I've been reading these studies about metformia.

Starting point is 00:39:24 or you know what, I'm going to take this other thing. Like I think a really rich environment that would be really healthy for that age group or a young entrepreneur would be to equate the idea of cannabis and psychedelics. Because especially now, like you're talking about some genetic testing and turp profiles, I bet you there's strains that could be, you know, marketed towards people towards the end of life. Like, hey, just try this. Just try this a few times. I think you could really open up a world of ideas and comfort to an aging population if we could get some more research out there. What do you think? How does that sound for an opportunity for a young entrepreneur?

Starting point is 00:40:06 Yeah, I mean, I think that could be very interesting to look at. I mean, the irony is that that's the generation that gave us for war on drugs. Of course. You know, that's one of the issues that would have to be overcome is convincing them that. now they should take drugs, not just cannabis, but psychedelics, which is a much harder, you know, harder drug in their mind, I think, or in society's view. Yeah, so, um, fate loves irony, right? Fate loves irony.

Starting point is 00:40:41 Yeah, yeah. People who've created more on drugs and said everyone who does it as a horrible person going to hell, they're going to use it to feel better about their passing and going to hell. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, I mean, the baby boomer, the aging population, I mean, that's always always an area that's where entrepreneurs can look to see what, where are the opportunities there, for sure.

Starting point is 00:41:11 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it brings up a bigger point, too. Like, I think that we're lacking connection on some level. And I think that cannabis and psychedelics do that. I think that they bring about a new form of awareness. And I think that we're sort of missing rights of passage in our world. And if you look at what's happening, when we look at the baby boomers who are rapidly

Starting point is 00:41:32 approaching the end of the mortality experience, like they need an opportunity to give back. You know, instead of clutching at longevity, they should be teaching their wisdom to the next generation of people that are desperately thirsty for it. Like there's so many awesome boomers out there that have so many that have lived a life worth living, that have radical, beautiful experiences. And I wish that they would share that with the next generation, because I think there's a lot of young men and women out there that are thirsty to learn, but are just sick of these sort of certification programs.

Starting point is 00:42:05 And they're lacking the real connection that comes from learning from somebody that has that experience. I think cannabis could be a big role in that, man. What's your take on rights of passage and sort of aspect? I mean, certainly, I would say, you know, starting to drink beer. smoking cannabis. Those are typical rights of passage for young people, you know, totally are. Or, you know, either in high school or then college, you know, I mean, even politicians, you know,

Starting point is 00:42:36 famously, multiple famous politicians have famously said stuff along the lines of, you know, when they were asked when it was still taboo to admit that they've smoked cannabis, we're like, well, I mean, I did go to college, you know, either way. And yeah, yeah. Right. You know. So, yeah, I mean, that's just part of popular folklore, you know, that, yeah, when you're going to come up, you try cannabis.

Starting point is 00:43:03 Yeah, I think, you know, as far as for older people, though, I mean, I think it's, you're talking about, you know, the, what the older people, the stories they have to give. And if cannabis, I'm not sure how that would come together, you know, I mean, would it be a library program where the young people and the old people go and smoke a joint together and then just have a conversation or? I think it would be able to clubs you're opening up over there. Aren't you guys beginning to open up some social clubs? Yeah, yeah. But unfortunately, even though they're called cannabis social clubs. clubs. They're just a growth, they're really a cultivation of grow club where you're not allowed to consider.

Starting point is 00:43:54 Whoa. Yeah, they're very, very strict about it. So unfortunately, that's not happening the way it would, yeah, it's not like a coffee shop in Amsterdam where you can go in by your product and then sit there and use it. But I mean, I agree. You know, those types of things, that'd be a great idea, you know, where people can sit and meet new people and and, and, and, and, you know, Yeah, enjoy cannabis together would be great. Yeah, well, I mean, when I think about Europe, I think about the rich history and like, you guys give us, we got the Renaissance. We got all these great ideas. There's so many talented, incredible, fascinating people that see the world in such a unique way. You know, and it's, I can see that happening on some level.

Starting point is 00:44:39 Like I, I, whether it comes from the underground or whether it comes from some sort of festivals, I think that you guys are going to be at the forefront. Whenever there's that much oppression, it's like that balloon. Like you squeeze it, but then that bubble pops out. No matter where you squeeze it, something pops out. I have high hopes for the EU and cannabis and rights of passage, and maybe a new elucis emerging from over there. Yeah, I mean, definitely, yeah, it is the genie's out of the bottle, you know,

Starting point is 00:45:11 as far as cannabis goes in Europe. And you're not going to be able to stuff it back in. You know, people are definitely going to keep pushing for more liberalization of the laws. You know, it's just a question of time and where and when and how fast is really the only question. As far as going back to complete prohibition, as some countries are threatening, I mean, that's not going to happen. Right. Yeah. Nice.

Starting point is 00:45:41 It just creates a bigger underground. Yeah. Yeah, it's true. You know what? We got Dr. Sebastian Martin Cole. Maybe we'll have him jump in here in a minute. He says he's currently building a workshop based on his book, The Art of the High, for members of social clubs in Germany.

Starting point is 00:45:58 Sebastian, hang on, man. I'll try to, I'll shoot you a link, man. I would love to have you jump in here and shoot it with me and Dr. Andy here. So, so yeah, I will, I'll try to shoot this guy a link real quick. But he's got, Dr. Sebastian's, got some really cool ideas. The thesis that he wrote is phenomenal. He's got multiple books out there.

Starting point is 00:46:18 And I think he might have some interesting things to add to the conversation here. But yeah, let's, yeah, yeah, we're connected on LinkedIn too. Okay. Have you guys met before? Have I had introduced you guys before? I can't remember if we had a conversation or not. We were talking on LinkedIn. I can't recall if we actually were able to have a,

Starting point is 00:46:40 if you're not now. All right. So let me just, I'm going to fire off this link right here. In the meantime, what, what, what, have you been going to any sort of conventions? I know that, you know, it's the ability to travel around there is, is pretty awesome. And has there been some events that you have been to? And if so, what are people talking about right now in, in the heat of the moment over there? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot.

Starting point is 00:47:07 I mean, almost every week, it seems like there's a cannabis reliance. event somewhere in Europe and a lot in Germany and also in London. But I don't go to all the smaller ones just because time-wise and travel time, you know, it ends up being just too much. Right. But the three biggest ones are Spanibus in Barcelona, Mary Jane here in Berlin, and Cana Fest down in Prague, which is coming up actually, you know, about three weeks. And each of those has over 50,000 people, probably 60, 70,000 plus people attending over the course of three days. So they're really big more business to consumer events. But for the Canada jobs, they're good for us because we need to be talking to companies,

Starting point is 00:47:55 but we also need to be reaching out to candidates, potential candidates. So they're really good for us because we get to spend time talking with both sides there. And I mean, really the main topic this whole year, the last two years, has really been all about what's going to happen in Germany with legalization. Right. We finally got the first legalization stuff happening earlier this year, but now we get more. What's going to happen in Czech Republic because they're really pushing that envelope too. So it ends up really just being all the conversations pretty much are around the legal status and what do people think is going to happen. you know sometimes you get to meet people who have or have a little bit more inside knowledge

Starting point is 00:48:40 if it's always interesting but if that inside knowledge in the end can't always with politics gets involved all of a sudden even those insider tips turn into nothing you know yeah because one of the politicians can torpedo something that looked like it had had momentum then all of a sudden it does it anymore unfortunately yeah it's I think it's the same here in the States. Like we get to learn a lot from the people that have successful campaigns. We get to learn a lot about the people, you know, the goods, the pros, the cons, the good, the bad, and the ugly over there. Yeah, I think if history, if past relevant behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, does that make you optimistic for the

Starting point is 00:49:27 legalization or the decrim or cannabis moving forward? Yeah, I'm very optimistic. I mean, You know, we've got, it's now legal in Germany. It just aren't recreational sales. I'm not super optimistic that recreational sale is going to happen real soon, but certainly it's still possible that it could happen within the next year or so. Most people are saying it's not possible, but legally it is because the legal foundation is there. Just the expectation is at the end of the year when Germany has elections again, that the conservatives will be back in power and they're anti-cannabis.

Starting point is 00:50:06 The law is already on the books. So cities and states that are more liberal-leaning can take the existing federal law and say, well, we're going to move forward with it because it's legal. Right. So I think we might end up actually seeing more activity the next year or two on that front than what people are expecting. But once again, it's politics that you never know. But like said, you know, like we were both talking about, it's too late to put the genie back in the bottle.

Starting point is 00:50:35 You know, it's moving in that direction. It's going to continue to move in that direction around the world. Nice. Sebastian, what's up? Thanks for joining us. I'm so stoked you're hanging out and listening, man. Thanks for being here, man. How are you?

Starting point is 00:50:48 Yeah. Hey, Andy. Finally we meet and virtually meet. Yeah. Virtually meet. That's the best we can do these days, right? Right. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:50:59 Hi, George. Great to meet you again. I'm sorry, I didn't want to bash your meeting. I just wanted to write a comment. That's how George works. You know, you never know what's coming out of that. He's always good for lovely surprises. I am.

Starting point is 00:51:14 I mean, for three of us to be in this anyway, and it's just a different third version. Yeah, excellent. And representing the inner circle. Like, Sebastian, you have, you're an accomplished author. You're an accomplished writer. You're a philosopher. you and Dr. Andy have so many things in common.

Starting point is 00:51:34 I know you've kind of been listening a little bit to the conversation. What's your take on the status of cannabis in the EU right now? Oh, you got me cold there because I think Andy knows much better about the whole of the EU because I was really knowledgeable about what was happening in the EU when I was still responsible for a company for the EU a few years ago. but now I don't, for instance, in England, I'm really not up to date because I heard there's a lot happening out there now, but I haven't quite followed the other country. So I'm focused now on Germany and because I'm trying to make my way here.

Starting point is 00:52:15 And it's an interesting development and to really to just give you a short update on what's happening here. With the social clubs, it seems like we now have the social club model that's, start the law started in April this year and I was a bit skeptic skeptical about the social clubs coming online and getting their actual licenses but it seems like a few ones have got their licenses now and they're operating and one of the one of one social club in Berlin just told me they are going to harvest soon in November and I was like well you know let's let's see if they come through with all the testing etc. because the whole model for social clubs is a bit difficult for them because they can't hire people,

Starting point is 00:53:05 like for a lot of money. They can't really work with professionals. They have to grow basically themselves. They can't outsource that, et cetera. So we're all, you know, waiting to see what's happening with the social clubs. And I wish them luck, but it's tough for them. But it seems like some of them are coming in line. and I'm really enthusiastic about the whole social club thing.

Starting point is 00:53:32 And of course, we can home grow here. But it seems that the model projects, as we call them, so the sale of cannabis for the responsible adult use, that will probably delayed as far as I can see. That won't happen this year and probably not next. We'll see. So because that was basically the trick because of the international laws and the single narcotics convention law.

Starting point is 00:54:03 You cannot really legalize cannabis for adult use, but the way they did it here in Germany was because it's only allowed for medical use or for scientific usage. And so the model they are running here is that they say, we're going to run model projects, we're going to have places that sell, and they don't exactly know. which kind of places these are going to be.

Starting point is 00:54:28 But they're saying they can sell to adults. And it's going to be like a few 10,000, 100,000 people. It's not clear yet, I think, how many people in how many cities would or could participate. And then you have a study that follows up and, you know, how these people do in terms of quality of life, in terms of what driving, et cetera, et cetera, for a few years to just. to generate data. So the whole thing is kind of set up as a scientific study,

Starting point is 00:55:01 which makes it like a scientific thing. But basically it's about recreation, what they call recreational use. And I always say re-hyphen creating. Because to put that back in the term, because we always tend to think of recreational as something like, yeah, you know, it kind of makes you. days and confused and happy

Starting point is 00:55:25 and I think you can re-hyphen create you can recreate yourself and cannabis in various ways that I've been talking about a lot so far from my rant but not to not to take it to ours now

Starting point is 00:55:40 of my research but you know what I mean yeah I love it so here's if we shift gears for a moment like we've talked about some regulation but both of you I think have a rich background and entrepreneurship. So I'm going to start off with Dr. Andy and then I'm going to come back to you, Sebastian, is what like lessons from other industries? And like I said,

Starting point is 00:56:00 you both have unique experiences, but are there experiences in outside sectors like craft beer, global business and leadership communities? And Dr. Andy, what insights can you take or can we take from some of these outside industries that we could bring into cannabis that might help, you know, get the ball rolling a little bit. Well, I mean, I think, you know, you mentioned craft beer, and I think alcohol and tobacco, these other industries are highly regulated. I mean, people who are coming from those industries kind of have a leg up because they already understand somewhat how difficult it is, how long everything takes, how annoying and difficult

Starting point is 00:56:42 applications and working with the government is when it's highly regulated. And yeah, especially the timelines, you know, I mean, you think it won't take that long within six months later. You've barely made any progress because you're going back and forth about the most ridiculous points, you know, details. So I think just that highly regulated market is something that people with that experience at least they understand it. And I think that's one of those things that we need to understand who aren't from those types of industries. is the kinds of timelines that we're talking about. You know, they are not what most entrepreneurs are used to. When you think, oh, you can build this and then you do that,

Starting point is 00:57:30 and then you do that. And six months later, there you are sitting there with your prop of cannabis, your first crop. It's like, no, it's going to take you a year to build a GACP facility. It'll take you at least one year to build a GMP facility and probably a year to get a GMP facility actually certified and licensed.

Starting point is 00:57:47 You know, and a lot of people just don't understand these kind of timelines because when they look out on paper, they're like, no, you should be able to do it this quick. And then they come and look and then you get a piece of paper. And like, no. Yeah. So I think that's one of those, that's probably one of the biggest lessons is understanding the sheer difficulty of dealing or being in such a highly regulated market. Yeah. Sebastian, you as well, like you have been in the cannabis game for a long time and you've seen lots of different changes on there. Are there some strategies that you have seen implemented outside of cannabis that you're bringing in?

Starting point is 00:58:21 I know that you have worked closely with seed companies and beverage companies, but what do you see as far as bringing something from the outside into the world of cannabis that may help make it evolve in a more efficient and effective way or an exciting way? I think your point with craft beer is an interesting one because basically when you look at cannabis, I see it as, you know, there are two worlds right now. We're trying, especially in Germany, we're trying to squeeze it into the pharmaceutical model. Of course, that doesn't work for various reasons. It doesn't kind of, you know, it's difficult and Andy is not in.

Starting point is 00:59:03 You know, for various reasons. But the other thing is if you look at cannabis and if you look also for purely medical applications, The pharmaceutical model is kind of doesn't work because it doesn't account of the fact that cannabis, we are talking about an entourage effect or an ensemble effect or an orchestral effect or what I don't like entourage that much because it means that there's one thing, THC, which is leading the way and the entourage doesn't really matter. So it's more like a synergistic effect of a lot of compounds in cannabis. And we know from a lot of patients that they benefit a lot from having various varieties of cannabis with different chemotypes, etc. But then if you look at, and I had in-depth experience with what are the SOPs, the standard operation procedures of big companies in the pharmaceutical realm. And they are really good at, you know, making sure that there is no. E. coli in your plants and that there is, that there are no toxic substances like heavy metals,

Starting point is 01:00:21 et cetera, et cetera. But if you look at how they harvest and how they do the post-harvesting, harvesting, et cetera, and the terpennoids, they don't even care, you know, in the pharmaceutical world. They care about CBD and THC, and the rest is kind of like, yeah, you know. So, and you can see that the production doesn't work. Whereas craft beer brewers, or people from that world, they care about that, and they know how much it's, how valuable that is. And if you look in the history of cannabis production, you know, in places like India or in places like all kinds of places,

Starting point is 01:00:58 you know, they all had their various treatments of the plant, you know, how they would bury it in sand or, you know, in Morocco they would put the cannabis in the blazing African sun. And then other compounds come along. And so there is a whole art of crafting cannabis that we kind of lost, you know, in that process. And now we have the pharmaceutical process. But a lot of good things come from the pharmaceutical and from the new technologies, you know, of growing plants that. Because, for instance, if you vaporize cannabis and you don't have, you know, you are not rigid about really testing cannabis, you know, you can have like problems with.

Starting point is 01:01:43 with aflatoxins and stuff like that. So you want, with mold issues. So you can really damage your lungs. So you want to combine, and this is it. I think this is one of the most important things we need to think about is we want to synergy of tradition and what's coming online now. We have to think about,

Starting point is 01:02:08 we can't just go back to one industry or to one practice or we can't just deny everything that's happening in pharma. You know, we have to look at what's out there. We're doing, and this is how I did my research, interdisciplinary research. I try to get a lot of knowledge also from people who used it on the recreational market or, you know, in subcultures from that kind of knowledge,

Starting point is 01:02:32 but also from studies endocannabinoid system, the medical world experience from pharmaceutical studies, et cetera, and from evolutionary philosophy of my science, So I try to integrate all that kind of knowledge. And I think we shouldn't be too romantic and go back and be like, yeah, back in the days it was all natural. Because nature has very powerful toxic components too, you know. And it's not it's not all great only because it's natural. And but also we know that pharma has its big problems.

Starting point is 01:03:08 You know, I basically agree with most of what Andy said before. So I think we need to really think about how do we bring the best of each worlds together and come up with something. And it's going to be completely new. So you're asking really great questions. Where can we learn from? And I think we can learn from several industries. I mean, for instance, when it comes to bringing cannabinoids in a beverage or so, you know, we have to think about how can we make CBD water soluble, et cetera.

Starting point is 01:03:38 I have contact with people. We're doing that. it's a really interesting process also. But so I think we need to take it from a lot of sources and come up with something. And we got to be open to the idea that we need to come up with something completely new. And the regulations will lag behind. They need to be really intelligently done. And, you know, it's a complicated process.

Starting point is 01:04:04 And we're seeing that in Germany too. We made a step, but now where we stand it, now the regulations are a bit serious. but it's because you can only make so many steps with a population that is mostly against cannabis. So it's kind of hard in the whole political process with all those parties in there. Some of them are completely against them. You just need to open doors with some regulations. And then wherever you are, nobody is really satisfied. But that's the way we're going now.

Starting point is 01:04:36 Yeah. Yeah, it's, you know, with EU Canada job, Rob's Andy, like, maybe there's some real opportunity there. And Sebastian, this goes for you guys too. Like, are you guys aware of anybody, like yourselves included? Is anybody reaching out to these big alcohol companies? Like, hey, we got a giant opportunity, boys. Come on over here to shake some hands.

Starting point is 01:04:58 Let's meet some people. Is there any interest? Maybe the regulations are too stiff. Are you guys aware of any interest for like partnering with these big, you know, sometimes they're looking at as the bad guys. But is there any interest in partnering with these big guys? guys, whether it's pharma, whether it's the big alcohol or even tobacco on some level. Are you aware of any talks that are happening between cannabis and these guys?

Starting point is 01:05:18 And is there a way to get a first foot in the door? Ouch, I'm not sure if I want to respond to that. I work for a company that was swallowed by big alcohol. Is there all bad guys? Like, I mean, there's got to be some good guys in there that see this as an opportunity to change, like, the society, to change the fuel we're running on, right? Or is it just also money-oriented that it's not even worth it? Anyone to answer that?

Starting point is 01:05:45 I don't think it's all bad. I think what you've seen, you've seen a lot of people come from those industries into cannabis. And I mean, some of those people have, especially from pharma, have come into cannabis and done really good jobs being high up or running these things in your cannabis companies. So I think the individuals are not necessarily evil. I think the companies as a whole tend to be, yeah, I hate to use it or an evil, but just based on what you said, more on the evil side.

Starting point is 01:06:19 You know, like Sebastian said, yeah, this company he worked for that got swallowed up, you know, it sounds like not a beautiful process, you know. I think most of these big companies, because they have, they have a lot of money when they come in, they're looking to make money. They're not looking to do good. They're looking to make money. through their purchases or acquisitions and stuff. And so I think that's where you end up not having necessarily goodwill or having a good

Starting point is 01:06:49 outcome. But I think the individuals, you know, I mean, everyone who works in another industry is an evil. It's not like it's inherently evil industry. But you have to be careful what the motivations are for these companies coming in. I'd like to add that, you know, sometimes making money is not. not the problem. I mean, everybody wants to make a living. And if people do something meaningful, and if they produce a good medication, you know, they should make money. They should make a living

Starting point is 01:07:20 on that. They should be able to benefit from that. But, and, you know, in pharma, I have seen that, of course, for instance, even if a company is only interested in making money, they should, they probably start themselves, even though they are not, they don't. have to in the cannabis world I've seen that start pharmacovigilance program so they look for you know whether the side effects what can we get from our patients not because they care too much about patients but because you know they they want to make sure that they don't get too much negative feedback and that they inform the doctors how to treat patients etc so that they keep on making money you know and so here the motive of making money doesn't necessarily have to lead to something bad but of course in a

Starting point is 01:08:09 near liberal society and system where, you know, you under conditions of competitions where then the pressure is so brutal on many people, and I agree with you, and a lot of people in those companies are good people, they want to do good things. But then under that pressure, they start having to do things that are horrible, basically, you know, that are really horrible because the regulations are not there and so you have a lot of competition and if you don't comply with certain things they do or if you don't go you know certain ways then you just drown you know that's the problem in the pharmaceutical work and so I'd like at this point too I'm not sure if I mentioned that did I mention Tomas

Starting point is 01:09:05 pogged to you. He came up with a great a German philosopher and he came up with a great model a few years ago because he said basically his idea was that in the pharmaceutical world, if everybody runs on the paradigm of, you know, creating IP intellectual

Starting point is 01:09:20 property and patent patents and but most companies then have to look for, they don't look for generating cheap medicine for like millions out there because they, if they if you sell medicine in India and you can't you're not making money on like 10 million people who can't hardly afford

Starting point is 01:09:41 anything then you're not looking for something to cure you know something very mundane in India but you're looking for the goldenators and you look for immune suppressant for the goldenators in America because they want to go golfing so so this is what I'm talking about these are the financial pressures that companies there and of course you can go to the pharmaceutical company and say, hey, come on, do something meaningful. And they will tell you, yeah, I can do that. But then I'm going to drop. I'm going to go bankrupt if I do that, you know,

Starting point is 01:10:12 because the system kind of, it's built in the system that I have to do something that generates as much money so that I can, you know, maintain the whole structure and do the whole expensive testing, et cetera. So Thomas Pogger and I, I'm not going to go into that. That's going to lead too far. But he started to think about it. system how we could do a paradigm change in the pharmaceutical world. But having said that, you know, I think that a lot of people are stuck in a system,

Starting point is 01:10:45 not only in the pharmaceutical world, but in all kinds of areas. And we need to, at some point, we're seeing, I think, in the world generally, and that we come to a point where we need to just slip. We need to get out. We need to get out the system. We can't improve it here and there a little bit. Well, this brings up what Andy and I were talking about earlier is, and this question might be well suited to you. And feel free to jump in, Andy, if I get this question wrong or you have something to add to it.

Starting point is 01:11:13 But are we seeing right now, Sebastian, a giant right of passage? We were talking about boomers, end of life, and how psychedelics and cannabis can be something that could be a rich target audience for pharmaceutical companies. You know, this idea of an awakening awareness at the end of life. As a philosopher, is that kind of what's happening? This system is collapsing. We have this giant age of baby boomers moving on the mortality experience. Everything is shifting on some level. Is that too broad of a question?

Starting point is 01:11:44 Like, can that be what's happening right now? Are we seeing these new ideas finally being brought to the forefront because the generation is dying? I'll try to make it short because I don't know. I don't want to Isaac Andy's conversation. But yeah, I think you point to something really important, and I've been writing about that lately. I really do think that people are now looking, that we have a pressure for people to change their minds

Starting point is 01:12:17 with all the problems we now have in the world, and that radically and quickly. And of course, psychedelic substances and cannabis and other substances like ketamine or whatever, it won't be classified as psychedelic, but it's still mind-altering and psychoactive, and also meditation techniques and other techniques. I think there's a huge potential there.

Starting point is 01:12:39 And we as a society need to think about how to better use that potential, of course, and of course there are risks there too. So we need to look up to those people who know how to deal with those substances And again, we need to integrate and get conversations between scientists of the old world, old school science, so to say, or the pharmaceutical world and of shamans and others. And we need to actually bring a lot of people together to find how we can use those substances. Because I think the good old Timothy Leary tune in and drop out and just the idea of, You just give the population like a million LSD trips and everything's going to be fine.

Starting point is 01:13:31 I don't think it's going to work. You know, it needs to be embedded in sensitive and intelligent regulations, and we need to have a lot of education to steer the process. But it is a thing of absolute necessity, and I think it's the right time to do it now. Yeah. What do you think, Andy? What's your take? Yeah, I mean, I agree. Basically, you know, I think the society as a whole is looking to change, like we talked

Starting point is 01:14:05 about earlier, and psychedelics can definitely be a big part of that. And that's why in the U.S. and here in Europe, you're seeing all this experimentation with psychedelics for different mental health problems. And I think you're going to see more and more studies being done and more people trying to adopt or figure out how to adopt these substances for the benefit, for the medical benefit of many people. You know, that brings up an interesting question too, Annie. Like I know in the last go-around, cannabis and psychedelics, at some point in time, it seems to me, and I don't know for sure, But it seems to me that the medical container became, these particular substances were forced back. They tried to put the genie back in the bottle.

Starting point is 01:14:57 And they did that by seeing people like Artling Letters' daughter jump out a window. And there was all this sort of hubbub about this, all this power that went into demonizing these substances. Do you think, Andy, like that is something that could happen again, especially where you're sitting, where you're seeing, like, on the cusp of D.Crim, these social clubs kind of pop. do you think that there could be some events that get shined a light on that try to force this thing back into the shadows? I think people are already trying to, but I don't think it's going to work this time. And I think there's too much information out there that's readily available to people. I mean, when they first did the war on drugs, now we know that it was done by the U.S. government and it was basically a racist policy.

Starting point is 01:15:46 And people then, they just believed the propaganda that the government threw out there. People nowadays, they have other ways to look up this propaganda and say, that's BS. So I don't think that same technique of we're just going to do prohibition and tell a bunch of lies. And that's not going to work again. And, yeah, there's just too much knowledge. and too many people who are not going to accept that. Yeah. What do you think?

Starting point is 01:16:24 I wish I could share your optimism, Andy. You are right in a way because I think there is a lot of knowledge and it's a lot easier now for most of us to just get to knowledge and to look at to Google or AI something and put in there and get those sources. better. But if you see the developments in China and Russia and other places where they kind of, we always thought like a few years ago, everybody thought, okay, the global connection with the internet, everybody will have access, etc. But now they're shutting off and, you know, they're creating their own systems and they're going into propaganda. We also have in social media,

Starting point is 01:17:12 the problems that we have with people building their high. bubbles and you know with controlling message I mean I'm I'm a victim of of shadow banning I've been the victim for for 20 years now otherwise I think I could have sold a few books more because you know it's not only shadow batting but it's also because of the stigma because people don't want to share and of course that concerns you to George I mean the one thing is that you are kind of bad and you know you're not featured on platforms or you know You have that kind of shadow batting.

Starting point is 01:17:48 The other thing is that people on LinkedIn or so in your bubble, they share you, but they wouldn't share you outside of your bubble. So anyway, but I think Andy's right in a way, but I think there's a long fight ahead of us in that world too for democracy and for making sure that the message goes out because now we are in the age of noise. And those who control what's coming through are powerful people with interests. And they're not necessarily the interests we have. Yeah, it's interesting. I had a conversation with my friend Benedict, who is a psilocybin facilitator in Jamaica. And she's been doing it for a really long time. And in our conversation, she had told me, you know, George, it's interesting to see the explosion of certifications out there,

Starting point is 01:18:45 especially in the U.S. for these different types of coursework or microdosing or all like it. Like it's just like bloated on some level. And I'm like, as she's telling me that, I'm like, here we go. Here we go. You know, once it gets so big, you can't help but have like a Jim Jones or something like that. And like just look at what happened with MAPs and Likos. You know, I'm not saying, I'm not putting any blame on anybody there. But like that sort of seems to me to be a flavor that's beginning to erupt out there.

Starting point is 01:19:15 And like it just seems like that is what's coming on the horizon. When you have this explosion, this huge expansion, you can't help but have some bad apples out there. And I think that those bad apples may be what sucks all the oxygen in. And then people see that. And then it goes, okay, we're clearly not ready for this. Let's try to put this thing back. Is that kind of the road you've been going down to, Sebastian, thinking about? Yeah, I mean, you see it here in Germany also with a lot of players on the cannabis market.

Starting point is 01:19:45 that are dancing around the laws we have for advertising, the advertising laws. And so now a lot of patients in Germany, and I really know them, know a lot of patients here, they are afraid and representatives of patients' associations. They're afraid that they're going to suffer and they are already suffering, like they did in the states in a lot of in a lot of states where they legalize, where they legalized or, you know, for cannabis for recreational use, and suddenly, you know, the medical cannabis patients don't get their varieties anymore, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And here we have a similar problem, and we have really bad apples in the medical cannabis industry

Starting point is 01:20:32 who are trying to sell cannabis, who are actually advertising to people who are not patients to get online and get a prescription from a doctor online, you know, know, for, you know, with no real check, checking, et cetera, for telemedicine stuff. So, so, yeah, we're seeing that. And that's what I meant before when I said, sensible regulations. It's kind of difficult as a politician also to build regulations that prevent that. Because you have, you know, the cannabis market, there are so many people who know that this is a big market. They want to come online.

Starting point is 01:21:12 And there are a lot of criminals entering with the market. those who come from a criminal-minded from truck selling. Some of them are great. Some of them had a good ideal. And they were like, hey, it's illegal, but I have to grow it for my own medicine or so. Some of them were just like, no, yeah, it's illegal, but I give it. I put pesticides on it and sell it to kids. What's the problem?

Starting point is 01:21:38 You know, I give it. So you have those people too. Then you'll have criminals from, from a, more modern background where, you know, they just have no ethics at all. They just want to make money and they don't give a shit about, you know, if patients benefit from it or not or where that's going. And they don't care about laws or morals. You know, they make their money.

Starting point is 01:22:01 They're in and out. And, you know, they get busted for 100. They fine for like 100,000. They make 2 million. So they're like, yeah, that's a good equation for me, you know. So then and then, of course, the politicians take a look and the population takes a look and they say yeah see you know you you kind of take steps towards legalization and then that happens you know so there is there's uh in germany a lot of people are afraid that this is

Starting point is 01:22:25 going to go backwards because we know that our next government is going to be more conservative yeah that's what dr ani was talking about a moment ago like you know can the can the law already be on the books or i i guess that kind of speaks to the social i'm sorry good oh I was saying thing. But I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm less concerned than Sebastian that things are going to necessarily go backwards. Sure, I mean, around the world, you've got more far right, more conservative governments coming in. But that's part of the typical pendulum swing of politics and society anyway. You know, you'll go a little bit liberal, then you'll get a little bit more conservative,

Starting point is 01:23:16 but generally it still marches forward in a liberal direction. Maybe not in a place like Russia or China where you've got absolute control, but most societies are still progressing forward. And I think cannabis falls under that, just like racism and other LGBT rights and things like that. Certain things or education availability, health care, different things like that, I think tends to progress relatively linear towards better good,

Starting point is 01:23:50 if they have the swings back and forth. And the far right or the conservatives are also not going to be able to stop that. I think in the long run, you'll have your setbacks, you know, but overall still going to be in a progressive manner forward. Well, two comments on that, just one for Germany. Yeah, I don't think that the conservatives are going to stop that. that they're now shouting loudly again for prohibition. They're like advertising for prohibition,

Starting point is 01:24:23 but I just talked to political people who really know, and they said, no, they're not going to go backwards. Maybe they're going to torpedo. No, they're not going to go backwards in that. I just wanted to give you the perspective of my good friend and mentor, the late Lester Greenspoon, who I worked with for a long time. And he said, and you reminded me

Starting point is 01:24:46 that in the 70s in the States, in the U.S., there were a lot of states who had already kind of decriminalized cannabis to a largely, you know. And he told me that his friend Carl Sagan told him when you read his manuscript of his magnificent book, Marijuana Reconsider of Lesser's book that came out in 1970, Carl read the manuscript and said, hey, you say that the legalization. will come within, I think, 10 years or so, probably. And he said, that's very pessimistic, you know. And that's the only thing where I really strongly disagree.

Starting point is 01:25:26 That's going to happen soon because, I mean, it's, you know, it must happen. Look at what happens out there. So, and unless you're talking about, unless you're talking to me, it was like, and he said, look where we are now 40 years later. And that was like 10 years ago now where, you know, everything was still strongly prohibited. So, so, yeah. I'm optimistic as you are, Andy. I just want to remind people and make sure that they, in the process,

Starting point is 01:25:52 they don't take it as a given because I think that's the biggest problem we have that people are like, and the younger generations, they're like, yeah, you know, it's a given that we have LBG, TQ rights, and that we have those civil rights, you know, that we have equality and et cetera. And I think we need to be aware that it's going to be a fight right now. And we're going to have to take it up again. More than we have to be invested in that more than most of us have been before. I do agree.

Starting point is 01:26:28 Yeah, I mean, I think it's, sorry, I just want to say, I think it's very important that people. That's a very good point. These rights, even though they progress forward, they don't progress forward on their own. It's just people fighting for them. If you stop fighting and stop standing up for it, it will go away. Yes. You know, I can't help but sort of think about what would a contagious counterculture movement look like at this point in time. Like maybe a couple of a season guys here thinking about how the world could be better, you know, like maybe part of our responsibility should be, you know, creating a contagious philosophy that could sort of permeate the next generation.

Starting point is 01:27:12 You know, when we start looking around the world and seeing the, you know, the, for me in the U.S., I see these explosions of the unconsciousness happening on college campuses, this sort of, you know, revisiting. We've already brought up Leary and like, like on some level, is it the past knocking on our door and saying, hey, guys, why don't, where, where are the day glow school buses? Guys, where are the new bands? Like, maybe that's what we should be doing. And I think both of you on some level have already created a sort of large group of information and work that can help inform the next generation. But do you guys see that on the horizon? Like maybe that's what we should be talking about. Maybe we should be having conversations that influence the next generation of radicals.

Starting point is 01:28:00 Yeah, but the thing is, the next generation doesn't want to listen to us. That's just it. You know, I mean, they might take some of the information that our generation has created. But they're not going to listen to us. I mean, that's the whole point of counterculture, contagious counterculture type thing is they've got to come up with it. Well, the counterculture in the 70s and 60s, they listened to some people who were older,

Starting point is 01:28:29 to like oldest Huxley and people. So, yeah, you're right. They will have to come up with their own ideas. But I think we can still infuse some ideas and knowledge. And I agree with you, George. I think it's one of the most important questions for the whole world of people who are into psychedelics and meditation techniques and mind-altering techniques, etc. To think about how can we build in the existing societal structures. how can we build organizations, networks, how can we infuse something in the system so that we come up with,

Starting point is 01:29:22 and I think one of the most important things is to come up with an imaginative, long look at what's coming and to build futures, you know, because we're going to have, we have AI systems, we're going to have robots soon, and we're going to live in a society that's built on our. imagination more than anything else. And if our imagination is impoverished, then, you know, maybe psychedelic substances and cannabis can help. That's what I've been writing about a lot. But it is about building structures, and it's about showing and leading the way in creativity to build those structures and networks to go ahead.

Starting point is 01:29:59 But I think it's not one thing. It's not like one festival or one scientific organization. It's throughout society, it's going to be all kinds of things. think tanks, foundations of the medical cannabis, whatever therapeutic things you have out there in the medical world for psychedelics and other substances and it's going to come from all sides. And we're seeing it happening, but I think like you do, it's kind of still too disconnected and we're still need to have

Starting point is 01:30:34 bigger ideas of how to move along. But I see it happening. I see it happening. I see a foundation here in Germany, the Mind Foundation by Henrik Jung-Avelace, great organization and other organizations are coming online that are working on that future. Andy, at EU Canada jobs, like you have this incredible platform where you can connect people that are, you know, sort of building the next level of cannabis. What positions are in most demand over there? Like if you could just reach across the, reach across the aisle and grab anybody you wanted, or you look at it. for engineers? Are you looking for sort of like who are the people that you're really looking for over there? Yeah, I mean, it really kind of mirrors other industries. You know, the number one would be sales, number two would be marketing, then you've got IT. Of course, you've got everything

Starting point is 01:31:26 else too, but those are the three biggest kind of areas that makes sense. You know, I mean, if you're not selling whatever you're producing, that's your point in your business. And to be able to sell it, you got to market it. And in the end, you need IT. for to make anything happen nowadays. So it kind of makes sense that those are the big ones. But of course, you've got some cultivation things, you know, position, and then you've got your a lot of QA and logistics, which are very specific needs, you know, for cannabis.

Starting point is 01:31:57 So the highly regulated nature of it also kind of drives some of it too. But it's really extremely diverse kind of portfolio of jobs that people are trying to get filled. Yeah, it's interesting. I'm sorry, I have to grow up. I have to jump. My kids are banging on the door, and they want to have been.

Starting point is 01:32:24 Thanks for jumping in. Absolutely. Lovely to meet you, really. Yeah. You hope to talk to you soon at Georgia. Have a good one, my friend. I'll talk to you soon. Have a beautiful day.

Starting point is 01:32:35 Okay. You do. Thanks. Bye, Andy. Good evening. that's awesome thanks Sebastian for jumping in and thank you Dr. Andy for

Starting point is 01:32:44 letting uh you know having having more tints into the voice man it's such a it's such a cool unique experience when that happens and I and I don't really believe in Coincennes I think it's a good way to have the conversation continue to move forward man but yeah yeah it's cool to see

Starting point is 01:33:01 I hope that um anybody within the sound of our voice or or market is or or anybody that you need to jump on at you can as listening to our voice and can do it. I think that would be a cool, a cool thing for people to do. I would love to continue to do it. How are you doing on time?

Starting point is 01:33:16 Are you okay on time? Or you got something coming up? I should get going in a minute too. I have another meeting coming up too. Me too. But I mean. So much fun though, man. The last time we talked forever, too.

Starting point is 01:33:28 I love it. It's so, the conversation is so fun when we sit down and we just get going and we have other people join. And I think that's a, it was awesome. Thank you very much for all. your time today, all your insights, to everybody within the sound of my voice.

Starting point is 01:33:43 Go down to the show notes. Check out Andy's site. Check out Rick Papa over there. Go to EU Canada Jobs and take a look at what's happening in the market over there, especially if you're someone that is skilled in cannabis. Maybe the opportunity is lying across the pond over there. But before I let you go, Andy, where can people find you? What do you got coming up and what are you excited about?

Starting point is 01:34:00 Yeah. I mean, best place to probably follow us is on LinkedIn. And then also our website, eucanodotjobs.com. But on LinkedIn, you know, they can also then interact with us on our posts and, you know, that way have more or less direct conversations with us. They can also then email us either through, you know, send us direct messages on LinkedIn or email us through our website. I'm happy to chat with people.

Starting point is 01:34:28 If people are looking at coming across the pond over here, there definitely are opportunities. It's a lot easier than people think, actually. Of course, there's bureaucracy and all that crap, but in the end, plenty of people have done it. And with all the political turmoil in the U.S., it's not a bad time to get out. Regardless if you're a Democrat and Republic, it's nasty. It's nasty right there right now. So, you know, not a bad time to check out another part of the world for a while. But, yeah, I mean, thank you very much for having one again, George, and looking forward to our next conversation.

Starting point is 01:35:03 Yeah, absolutely. Let's have more of them. This is really fun. just briefly afterwards, but to everybody else, I hope we have a beautiful day out there. That's, oh, we got, Aloha.

TrueLife - Uprising - Cannabis, CounterCulture, & Germany

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