TrueLife - Voyage of Initiation - W/Jessica Tracy & George Monty

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Voyage of Initiation 2GEORGE:I’m George Monty—a voice from the borderlands,where psyche meets spirit and the ego dissolves into symbol.I’ve wandered the architecture of dream and shadow,not to escape—but to retrieve the gold buried in grief.I do not guide—I provoke.I am not here to teach—I am here to remind.That your suffering is a cipher,your madness—a map.And somewhere in the ruins of reason,your soul is still whispering.JESSICA:And walking beside me is Jessica Tracy—a soul-listener,a witness to the sacred unraveling.She stands at the threshold of grief and grace,where trauma is not a diagnosis,but a doorway to deeper knowing.Jessica has walked with death,and returned with the scent of the eternal on her skin.She holds space the way a tree holds lightning—still, rooted, radiant.Not to fix, not to save,but to remember what the soul has always known.TOGETHER:This is The Voyage of Initiation—a ritual of return.A remembering of the soul’s paththrough psyche, symbol, shadow, and star.Here, we do not numb the ache.We kneel beside it,until it speaks.Absolutely. Below is a set of talking points for Voyage of Initiation — designed to be not only unique and powerful but esoteric, unforgettable, mythopoetic, and soul-resonant. These are more than conversation starters; they’re portals to profound dialogue. Each one is a point of initiation itself, inviting guests and audiences alike to walk through the fire.https://www.jessicathejungian.coach/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scar's my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark. fumbling, furious through ruins

maze, lights my war cry born from the blaze. The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Kodak Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. But this is just in the True Life podcast. Today, we have episode two of Voyage of Initiation.

I am George Monty, a voice from the borderlands where psyche meets spirit, and the ego dissolves into symbol. I've wandered through architecture of dream and shadow, not to escape, but to retrieve the gold buried in grief. I do not guide. I provoke. I am not here to teach. I'm here to remind that your suffering is a cipher. Your madness, a map. And somewhere in the ruins of reason your soul is still whispering.

And walking beside me is Jessica Tracy, a soul listener, a witness to the sea. A witness to the sacred unraveling. She stands at the threshold of grief and grace where trauma is not a diagnosis, but a doorway to deeper knowing. Jessica has walked with death and returned with the scent of the eternal on her skin. She holds space the way a tree holds lightning, still, rooted, and radiant. Not to fix, not to save, but to remember what the soul has always known. Together this is the voyage of initiation, a ritual of return, a remembering of the soul's path

through psyche, symbol, shadow, and star. Here we do not numb the ache. We kneel beside it until it speaks. Jessica, thanks for being here for this voyage of initiation. Episode two, how are you? Thank you. I'm doing great. I'm super excited.

Yeah. This is exciting. It is exciting. You've been up to quite a bit of things over on your side. Been traveling around quite a bit. Maybe you could help the listeners who want to keep up to date with some of the things you're doing. What have you been up to? Sure.

Let's see. So not too long ago, I spent some time in Peru. And in Peru, I was actually spending time to work with the San Pedro medicine, Wachuma. And I know we talked a little bit about that last time. I also had an opportunity to spend some time working with the shamans and learning from the quero shaman as well as the medicine woman and music man that was there as well. So that was an incredible experience. Quite a journey. So obviously going there, not only for my own emotional healing and just like really eye-opening experiences, and we can talk about this morning. I know we talked a little bit about last time about my acupuncture experience. But just such incredible learnings from working with these wonderful people. So that was a really beautiful experience. I recently had the opportunity to go to work with a Celtic shaman, actually, as well. And that was in Winnipeg, Canada, out of all places.

She just so happened to be traveling from Ireland, where she normally teaches, to hold a workshop in Winnipeg. And that's about 15 minutes from my parents, or my partner's parents' house. So I said, wow, this is another very unique synchronicity happening right now. So I need to be here and learn from this woman. I've been studying under her for quite some time with her books. And, yes, that was a beautiful experience.

and obviously doing my work with Youngian coaching, blending all of the kind of practices that I'm learning from these different healing traditions into the coaching modality. And actually through that unique experience that I had in Peru with the acupuncture, I've now actually taken on a new initiative to now train in acupuncture as well.

One of the things I really came to realize is, and obviously we always know this, how much trauma is stored in the body and how much we carry it. And to develop and have tools to help individuals, you know, move and let go of that physical trauma that could get stored in the body, you know, after we go through and explore what's going on in the unconscious mind was really important to me. So that and then doing some work with psychedelics as well.

So I have a psychedelic retreat coming up in the next two months. and then also, of course, doing the work with Enthia, where we're helping employers and unions to cover psychedelic medicine for their employees. And that's been, you know, really rewarding as well to help people get broader access to these medicines. So just that they're tough of mind right now. Shout out to the great Sherry Reyes, who's co-piloting over there with you. And a great team, by the way.

You guys are doing amazing things. You know, when I heard you bring up some incredible words that always get me thinking. and it's like trauma, tools, experience. And the question that comes to me, Jessica, and I can't wait to get your opinion on this, is that the trip is easy. Like so many of us, we can do the trip. The trip is easy.

The return is holy. I'm sorry. I kind of flat that question. The trip is easy. What do we know about coming back? It seems to me coming back from the trip is like the difficult part. Whether you want to call it integration or whatever you want to call it, like going out and taking.

it, yeah, it takes courage to take a big dose or it takes courage to go somewhere and be part of a ceremony. But the coming back from the trip seems to be the hard part. What are your thoughts on that? Oh, I agree. I mean, you're coming back a new person. You know, when you go and you work with these medicines, a part of you is going to die, like this guaranteed. A part of you is going to die. And, you know, I think that that's a new experience for many people. And when you come back, you need to learn, okay, now how do I show up in this world, you know, my work, as this new version of myself where some of those aspects that maybe I leaned on, maybe I relied on, maybe it was just habitual, whether I liked it or not, it was just habitual, are no longer there.

And it can feel uncomfortable and it can be a bit difficult. And we know that the true transformation really happens in the work that you do after. You are, of course, going to have a mystical experience, you know, through the medicine. and there will be some change in some shift that happens. But if you don't do the work, you will end up kind of like shifting back into your old ways. So it can be difficult, I think, to come back as this new version of yourself and just really try to understand, well, how do I show up now? How do I want to show up now? And how do I maybe adjust some things about myself to integrate the learnings, the lessons, the teachings that I receive?

from the medicine. So it definitely can be challenging, I think also too. I think sometimes you can maybe see that a lot of what you had worried about or cared about or put a lot of stock into perhaps doesn't have the same level of meaning for you anymore. And that can be maybe a bit confusing to understand. and also perhaps some of the people, places, and things that you once engaged with no longer feel the same. They may feel different or off or maybe not fully aligned. And perhaps, you know, you could also feel a bit lost because now some of the things that you thought or believed in

or held true to some extent before, you know, no longer fit into this new version of yourself. So while I say like all of these things can be challenging and uncomfortable, it's also an incredible spot to be in. It's a beautiful spot to be in. And it's a spot that many people don't have the opportunity to sit in. And it's just an opportunity for just you to really take a look at, you know, what's true for you. What are your knowings? and who are you truly underneath of all the programs, you know, kind of everything that we've learned or been told the shoulds and shouldn't?

So who are you underneath it all? So it's this really incredible opportunity to pause and start to like peel back the onion, unlearn mostly, and then relearn things that are true for you. Find a path that is aligned for you. So while difficult, it's also a really big. beautiful and opportunity that most people don't have the benefit of sitting in. I like the way you put that. But it brings up a question to me.

And the question is, don't we all have, like, I think, at least in my opinion, I think we all have that opportunity. It's just whether you're willing to sit with it. Maybe you don't have time. Like if you work in 60 hours a week or 50 hours a week and you got a family, have all these things that are begging for your attention, it's very difficult. to sit with yourself and try to figure out how to unlearn these patterns that you're submerged in.

That sounds pretty accurate, right? What do you see from a youngian lens from that perspective? Yeah, I agree 100%. And thank you for clarifying that. Because, yes, we always have that opportunity to sit and just evaluate where we're at. Is it right for us? Is it our truth? I think sometimes there's just so much going on in our lives, in the world.

There's so many distractions. really purposefully so. There's so many distractions that don't allow us to be able to sit with ourselves. And I shouldn't say don't allow us, right? Because we always have the choice. But perhaps kind of blind us from our ability to sit with ourselves and to do this deep exploration that is needed to really get under the hood and kind of like see what's going on and just get a greater awareness of what actually is happening and what you want to do about it.

Yeah. It's really well said. It brings up a question I have on the screen up here, and it's, who benefits from you staying exactly as you are? That's a pretty big question to think about, but what are your thoughts on that? Nobody. Nobody, right? Nobody. I mean, even if, like, let's say you try, like, you know, let's say you have a truth. Okay. This is something, you know, from a personal experience a long time ago. Let's say there's a truth and maybe that truth might hurt somebody. So you don't want to share that truth to protect somebody else. Okay. So you might think like at that time, I thought I was doing the right thing by holding on to that truth because it might protect the other individual. But then I, realized, and I've had some great teachers too, to help me also explore this further, then I realize, like, that doesn't do anybody any good. You know, one, it holds my truth in, and two, the person on the other side doesn't have the opportunity to grow and evolve

through that truth, right? Because that was a truth for them as well, that they needed to hear and they needed to see. And by having access to that truth that I had to share, they then could take that information and use it as part of their own evolution. And by holding that back, by me thinking on protecting someone, is actually hurting them and it's hurting me. It's such a brilliant answer, especially when you start looking at it through different generations. Like I know that a lot of people, myself included sometimes,

like I looked at my parents and I'm like, I can't believe they did this, you know, or maybe you have an elder, or maybe you're a parent, you're looking at your kid, like on the opposite spectrum, but we can all be teachers. You don't have to be an elder to really be a teacher. Sometimes it's the youth. Sometimes it's your child that brings this question to you. Why did you do that? This is how I felt about that. And those are the thorny topics you're talking about. Like something maybe happened. Maybe the kid got molested or maybe something happened. And you're, you are trying to hold that truth in because you don't want to hurt your family or something like that. But you're denying your family the evolution to move forward and yourself the idea to move forward. if you hold in your own truth. What are you thoughts? Absolutely. I mean, I know this too from like, you know, a lot of family struggle with,

with like the health disorders. And how do you talk to mental health disorders that run in the family? And I know, you know, many families that might keep that close and might not share it with even others in the family. And again, I believe that once you share that information, that is information that the other person is supposed to have so that they can know what to do. about it and how to maybe perhaps change the trajectory of the lineage by having access to that information. So it's super powerful. And I believe everyone is a teacher. Everyone is a student and

everyone is a teacher at all times. There's never anybody who's just a teacher or just a student. And we're always playing these roles interchangeably throughout our life. So yeah, absolutely. Children are amazing teachers. And we are teaching them, but they are teaching us every single day. Nature is an incredible teacher, you know, just sitting outside and looking at nature, you're giving gifts all the time from nature as teachers. I mean, that happens to me in crew. There was this really, like, unique experience where I was sitting there and this hummingbird flew over me, really big hummingbird. One of the largest types of hummingbirds. And she just flew over me and she just stayed there, stay there, stayed there, right? And there was a small, tiny hummingbird

that I could see out of the corner of my eye, and it was over here. And what I was, you know, kind of came to me is that I had this opportunity, and I couldn't really see the other hummingbird, right? But I had this opportunity to watch this, like, masterpiece in front of me. That was just like staying here for me to see, just, you know, staying there, and I had the opportunity to see and experience her. And if I looked away, then I might lose the opportunity. And I did it for a while and then I looked away.

And as soon as I looked away at the distraction, gone. You know, it's just like such a simple, such like a beautiful moment to remember. Like, presence is so incredibly important. And to not get caught up in the distractions of life. Because when you do, you can miss a really unique and beautiful opportunity to engage or see something that you otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity to. It's so well said. I think that that same sort of moment happens in time of crisis.

You know, crisis are sort of like psychedelics or altered states of awareness in that it strips away all the distractions. Because now you're present in the moment, whether it's something that happened in your family or something to a loved one, all of a sudden, all these things that you were worrying about, all these distractions about like, well, I'm going to pay that bill or am I going to get that thing done? All those things fall away. And now you're just here with the present moment. And there's some real clarity that happens in those moments. People can live a whole lifetime in a moment. You know, it's interesting to think about the language there and just being present. Absolutely.

Yeah, I mean, you know, some of the most challenging situations in challenging times in people's lives, most traumatic times in people's lives are where the most growth and transformation happens. And it's not easy and it's devastating sometimes. But, you know, I think that you can always look back with gratitude and understand perhaps that was, you know, what was needed for. my evolution, you know, they say we come into this life with agreements with other people. You know, we already have kind of sole contracts and agreements with others. And we, when people come into our lives or, you know, sometimes it's, they're only meant to be in our lives for a certain period of time,

right? And those people are teachers and students at the same time. And, you know, sometimes we have these really traumatic and challenging situations where we may lose people or people may move out of our lives and for whatever reason, but they're only meant to be there for a certain period of time because they are our sole contract. And there is, you know, this agreement of you need to come into my life for this part of my evolution. And then, you know, for whatever period of time. And sometimes we have the opportunity to have people that we love and care about in our lives for a long period of time. And sometimes it's short. But there's always a reason. And sometimes it's hard to understand, you know, while we're in it.

When I think about a soul contract, is that Youngian or are those two related? Or how does that relationship work? You know, that's a good question. I mean, I've just, I've explored this mostly, like, within just, like, kind of spiritual context, sole contracts and soul agreements. You know, I think maybe you could tie, connect it with, like, synchronicities and patterns, perhaps. And also like the process of individuation that others are going to come into our lives to help support our process of self-realization and individuation because we can't do it on our own. You know, like, for example, relationships are super challenging.

You know, they're never, they're never smooth sailing 100% easy. They're always, no matter what, no matter how much you love someone, they're always going to be a challenge. But they are your greatest teachers, whether it's an intimate relationship or a relationship with your children, a relationship with, you know, a close friend. Those are those connections that we need because ultimately they're mirrors of ourselves. And if we don't have that mirror in front of us or that person to point out or pour salt on our wounds or to, you know, shed light on the, the, trauma or what we're still carrying, we can't do the work. You know, sometimes it's, it's easy to think, well, if I'm just not here, then I don't have to feel this way. I don't have to experience, you know, that's maybe like just kind of, do I really have to work through this one? You know,

is it really necessary, but the reality of it is. If you're, if you're here to, you know, I do believe we are here to, one, learn and two, to be able to become like the fullest expression of ourselves because we have so much to offer that can help other people. you know, not only here to above ourselves, but to offer our gifts to each other in community. And the only way to really do that, I think, is to keep coming into more and more and more yourself. And to do so, you do have to go through this evolution process of just inner exploration, self-exploration, you know, looking at those wounds and learning from them. because most of the time when they happen,

we're kind of so in the trauma that it's hard to really learn from it. You are learning. But oftentimes it's kind of later that you can look back and see, oh my gosh, now I understand. Like look at me now because of the situation. I love it. It reminds me. I heard a quote a while back and I can't attribute the quote to the person that said it.

So I will just say that I heard this quote somewhere. And it's along the lines of that initial. initiation isn't walking through the flame it's understanding that you are the flame and i think that that speaks to the idea of like yeah you're going to burn people you know and when you come through the initiation maybe you have a sense of righteousness but what do you think about that like instead of walking through the flame becoming the flame hmm i almost thinking of it as you're both right it's constant dance between being the flame yeah yeah it's i think that you're in partnership with the flame I think that you are, it's like that maybe you're like an amiss, right?

It's like we need, we need to be doing both. We need to be walking through the flame and we also are the flame for other people. And again, like, that's that like triggering that we're going to do for other people and other people are going to do for us. And it's super frustrating and challenging. But that is what helps us to see what is inside that needs some further exploration. So, yeah, I would say that we're both, really. Yeah.

Yeah, it's such a beautiful frame because when you think of the flame, you think of the light. You also think of the heat. You know, you also think of the potential to see your way in the dark. I don't know. When I think of initiation, it's just, I can't help but see that frame of the flame. You know, initiation is such a deep word, and it means so much to different people. How do you, when you think of initiation, when I say the word initiation, what do you think of? I think initiation is coming into.

It's coming into. It's becoming. It is a rite of passage. It is a birthing. It is it is almost like a claiming of who you really are. I find it to be like very ancestral as well. You know, kind of

this initiation of just like awakening to who you truly are. what you're here to do or to be and how can you kind of carry forth your lineage and and help spread whatever you're you're here to offer to the world. I love it. It's interesting to think about how initiation seems to come with an ordeal. Maybe that's the flame we were talking about. But I think the ordeal is something that a lot of people are afraid to go through. Maybe it's a tragedy, but I really like the word ordeal. And I see it in the psychedelic experience. And a lot of the times I see the lack there of the ordeal.

You know what I mean by that? Like you can go and take a class or you can go and sit in a classroom and learn about the ordeal. But it's a whole different world when you have to go through that ordeal on some level. What are your thoughts on that? You have to be it, right? You have to look for this. It makes me think of the word embodiments, right? You can just, like you said, you can learn things in a book.

But without fully, I think, like experiencing just like the magic of life, the tragedies of life, you're not fully embodying all that you're meant to endure in order to become. and shift into this new version of yourself. You know, and we talk about like energy, right? We are ultimately energy. And part of this kind of evolution process is shifting into different levels of energy or different types of energy. And sometimes these, you know, catastrophic experiences

or challenging tragic experiences for ordeal experiences are what's going to help shake you to see, like, where you're at right now and how does this feel for you? And are you meant to be here, or is there something more and greater for you? And I think, you know, they, for example, like grief, right? They talk about grief, obviously is extremely, extremely challenging. But something that I saw, and I know this very much to be true, is that it also allows you to connect to authenticity, which is ultimately, you know, kind of the highest form of evolution is to be fully authentic.

And, you know, some would say it's enlightenment, but, you know, I've seen others say it's authenticity, and I think that that's true. And grief allows you to really set in when you can fully, fully, fully let go into it. It allows you to fully, fully embrace your authenticity of what you're experiencing and to fully settle into that. And I think it's these types of experiences that allow us to connect to aspects of us that

we wouldn't otherwise have the ability to touch, to see, to experience, to live, to turn on. Like, we are such, like, incredible creatures, you know, that have so many different facets to us. And literally, so many different aspects of us are ourselves to really, like, explore and engage. And of course, the goal is to always like harmonize and come to this, this wholeness. But that is part of understanding and tapping into and connecting and seeing and knowing all parts of us. So I believe that these experiences allow these other parts to awaken, to turn on, to perhaps integrate. Yeah. So I think that it helps us to connect to touch, see, feel, in body become more alive as well.

Yeah, it's a great point. Grief is such a good teacher. I want to do a little thought experiment, Jessica. I'm going to try something out here. So for you, myself, and everybody in the listening audience, I want everyone just to close their eyes for a minute and think of something you're ashamed of. Just take a moment to think about something.

We've all done it. Don't pretend like you haven't done something. Everybody's done it. So just take a moment to think about something that maybe you're ashamed of. Okay. Now, come back for a minute. What role does that play, Jessica?

We've all done this experiment. We've thought of something shameful that we've done or ashamed of. What's the purpose of that? What's the role of shame in our lives? What can we learn from it? I mean, I think shame can teach us another. There's like so many aspects to this question, so many angles to this question. You know, I think when we think about shame, it's often something that we've stuffed deep down

into our shadows. It's our shadow side. And our shadow has often been there to protect us. And perhaps that we've done things or said things or not done things that we feel ashamed of, right? But at that point, for whatever reason, there was a reason that you did, said, thought, whatever it might be, that thing. And that feeling of shame, I think, can teach you, one, is that the person that I truly am? Perhaps. Is that the person that, and if not, then who do I want to be?

Is this, did this happen because there's some level of protection or some need that wasn't being met? that needed attention. And perhaps maybe that's a sign that like, well, maybe I wasn't giving to myself in the way that I needed to. You know, if there was some sort of like thing that someone did out of survival, perhaps, it's always showing up for you to say, well, what happened in that moment? What did I need in that moment?

Why did I choose that specific thing to do? in that moment or series of moments, whatever it is, situation. And why did I choose that? How did it make me feel? Would I have done something differently or chosen something differently if I were to look back on it now? Who did it make me become? Who did I choose to become after the fact?

And then is there anything that is still needed due to that situation that has happened? So it's just an incredible opportunity to explore yourself. Sometimes there's like, you know, if you think about shadow, it's repressed desires. It's suppressed emotions. It's suppressed needs. It's repressed memories that still need attention. So all of these things are going to sit in your psyche. And if not explored, you might perhaps act out of that shadow.

And sometimes like acting out of that shadow, could be a call from your psyche to say, hey, there's something that is needed in here that you're not providing to me. Or there's something that needs further exploration or needs healing that you're not providing, that you, you know, self is not, is not giving enough attention. So I think there are always just like opportunities to kind of explore the what, why, how to figure out how to best move forward and what to learn from it. That's a brilliant answer. Thank you.

That's a tough question to answer on the spot right. I think they did a great job about it. You know what's an interesting feeling too is like when you feel these emotions, be it grief or shame and then you get in the presence of the person with whom you may be ashamed, whatever happened. You know, and now you have like this shared experience of shame or grief. And it's, do you think that, I don't think there's a question. I think the other person can feel it, but sometimes it's a mystery of whose shame it is.

You ever get into that situation with someone and it's really uncomfortable because something happened between you and you don't really know how that other person feels, but you feel a certain way? It's an interesting dynamic to be in the presence of someone else who may also hold shame. Like, how do you interpret that? Like, what do you do in those situations? What do you think is going on there? Yeah, well, I think that we're always going to be, you know, depending on like how, how connected you are to your own personal energetic field and how, I guess, like, sensitive

or in tune you are to other people's energies, you're going to feel that to a greater or lesser degree, you know, depending on where you're at. But I think in general, like, most people will be able to experience and know that. And it's probably something that feels like quite uncomfortable. And I always think personally, like the best path there is always just transparency and honesty. It's always, it's always the way. You know, you have to trust yourself to make sure, like, is that the right path? Is that, you know, right at this time? Is perhaps comfort needed? Perhaps like just being open and asking questions. But always starting with honesty, I think is oh and integrity is always going to be the best path forward to just maybe bring up like hey

this is how I'm feeling and and I wanted to also just check in on you to see how you're feeling but I think always just like open honest dialogue is always going to be the best part best place to start yeah it's it's interesting too I think sometimes when we find ourselves beginning to walk in a new form of awareness. We can really pick up on other people's feelings or other people's the way they feel. And sometimes that can be pretty confusing too. I know that you have felt that on many ways. How do you deal with that? For someone who maybe is starting to come to this new sense of awareness, like there seems to be an awakening happening everywhere I look and people are kind of coming into this new understanding of, hey, maybe it's not me that feels. Maybe it's this person that

feels that way. How would you help someone navigate that sort of new awakening or that new sense of awareness? Great question. I just thought of something. Before I answer that question, I think the shame is really important to talk about too because like oftentimes it's something to actually be shameful about. You know, sometimes like we're carrying the shame. But it's more of like I should have done this or I shouldn't have done this. But when you really explore the situation with like love and compassion for yourself, you know, almost as you would, as kind of like if you are parenting a child, right? And if you are your parent and you are looking at yourself in that situation. And, you know, perhaps that shame is not fully

warranted. It's something that we naturally carry, you know, because of societal norms, should and shouldn't, like just culture, everything. But perhaps like that shame isn't, I shouldn't say it's fully warranted. Obviously, your feelings are always warranted, but maybe the level of shame that you're caring yourself is not necessarily aligned with what actually happened. So I think talking through things and being vulnerable and transparent and honest is really important. One, it's important for the shadow self to transition from shift or transcend from darkness into light. It's also the process where all of the lessons, you know, a lot of the lessons will start to like birth and come into form as you kind of start to let go of some of that shame and talk about it and be open about it. You'll start to, I think, gain lessons through that experience, like wisdom through that experience.

And I think also one thing that we have a really hard time or maybe perhaps lacking in sometimes is self-compassion. And again, like if we were, we are so hard on ourselves, we beat ourselves up so often and in like pretty brutal ways, you know. And if these things that we are ashamed of, if we share that with like, again, if it was your, if you were a child talking to your parents, what would be given back to that child is, is like, you know, you have to just learn from it. you know, what did you learn from it? How will you do things differently now? How will you go back if there was anyone else involved? How can you like make things right or just now be, you know, loving, kind of, loving and as possible in a situation?

And then, and so just like provide compassion to the individual going through the experience. So oftentimes we don't do that for ourselves and we don't tell anybody else. So we just beat ourselves up and hold that. and it just kind of gets darker and bigger in our shadow. And then it starts to react in all different ways that we don't intend to and don't even realize it sometimes. So I think that, you know, kind of having self-compassion and trying to find the learning and the lesson

and transform that into wisdom. And then also maybe there's something that you can do better moving forward. I think that's really what's most important out of those scenarios. And then to go to the back to the question now, yes, I experienced this quite often, actually, and it was really confusing for me at first because I would, you know, I would be feeling pretty intense emotions. And they would be quite overwhelming. And perhaps I would feel as though I wasn't reacting as fully, like I was more reactive or not being like fully myself. different aspects of myself that might be arising or coming up that maybe I wouldn't normally

be expressing. And what was really helpful for me to, one, realize what was going on was to, like, fully step out of the situation. And for me, it was actually going to the woods. So going to the woods and walking in nature, sitting by a river, by a stream of water, sitting by the trees. And when I did that, a lot of, I guess, what wasn't mine would clear. It would leave. And then I would experience who I truly am without all of the other energies kind of in my field. And then I could like kind of get this foundation of what is my energy. How do I feel?

So then when I would go back into these situations and I would start to feel these pretty intense emotions or energies, then I could start to discern, okay, perhaps this isn't mine. I'm picking up on somebody else's and maybe what can I do in the situation? What do they need? Or how can I now better understand the other person based on what I'm feeling right now? It's like, you know, it's challenging, but it can also be super beneficial to know, okay, maybe I can be a little bit more caring, a little bit more gentle or a little bit more, like, curious right now in this situation.

but there's this process to like really discern that it's really hard actually to be able to do to discern and then also to like then not like react from that place when you're experiencing those emotions pretty intensely at the same time yeah it's really well said it and it brings up so much that's happening in this world I was at a recently I was at a PTA meeting of sorts and one of the parents got up and they they said listen my child has a real problem with anxiety the really anxious all the time. And it got me thinking about what you would just answer it is that we are feeling the emotions, the system, all of these societal pressures are just weighing down on us. And a lot of them are shame and grief of not being enough. And when we have those feelings and we bottle

them up, we transmute them to our kids and our kids are feeling that on some level. There's not a whole lot of education about there. Like, what is the purpose of grief or what is the purpose of guilt? And one of the best answers I heard to that was a mentor that I had. I remember I was feeling really guilty about my life and not being enough. And I was telling my friend Ed about it. And he goes, George, you're misunderstanding. Guilt is not there to make you feel bad. Like it's not there to make you sit in it.

Guilt is an emotion that comes up so that you can be aware of to do something again. And once you realize that, you don't have to hold it anymore. But you don't see that education out there. Like might that be something that we could be teaching in school? about the purpose of guilt or the purpose of shame, sort of like you're explaining now. All of this. I mean, we should be teaching about just,

this is like emotional intelligence, right? Yeah, right, totally. It's not taught. How are we not taught emotional intelligence? How are we not taught about mental health? You know, right now it's just like everything's a label. You know, I'm seeing this, like with children, everything's the label.

So, you know, kids are walking around saying, oh, I have ADHD. Like, it's a bad of honor. Like, because it's something that they can say, like, or I have anxiety. There's a song, you know, that's out that my, that I'm hearing where kids are saying like, my anxiety, it's my anxiety.

And it's like spelling, you know, putting in their heads and they're singing these words. So there's no education around, around emotional intelligence, around mental health for children. And there absolutely needs to be. Because if we can, if they can better understand emotions,

and especially like when kids are, you know, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, their emotions are super intense at that time and they don't have the tools to understand how to navigate them and, you know, they'll lash out or they'll get, you know, maybe super quiet into themselves. But I think that this is something that school is absolutely just like even the most baseline things, like what is it? And, you know, perhaps it's not, you know, using terms like anxiety or ADHD. it's it's just explaining like how you will feel and then what can you do about that feeling to help express and to help perhaps move it through the body because right now it's so much of just like put it away it's not allowed put it away right but how can we like experience these emotions learn from the emotion and learn how to express the emotion creatively or express the emotion in a healthy way that will just change so much for

our future, you know, like generations. But it's not, it's not taught at all. Yeah, it's really well said. And it kind of reminds me of two myths, Jessica. I think you're going to like this one. So there's the myth of the scapegoat and the sacrificial lamb. And I think the sacrificial lamb came first and then the scapegoat came after. But it sounds to me like what we're doing with these labels is we're providing a scapegoat when what we really need is a sacrificial lamb. We have the scapegoat of giving a label. You have anxiety. You have ADHD. That's the scapego.

Now you can just let that go and you don't think you have to deal with it again. But what you really need to do is sacrifice that lamb and teach kids like, hey, we got to stop this. We got to have this sacrificial lamb about ADHD or the language in there. Like the language is so important on that. What are your thoughts? Yeah, well, then it's just like, what are we setting these children up for? Right? Farm app.

Right? Because as soon as I see, I see this on my kids' iPads, it's like they have ads coming up in front of them. And it's, I mean, it's, it's really, like, it's, it's devastating what I'm told them as soon as I saw. Like, it is this, it was this boat thing where it says, like, nobody can solve this. What to say? It was only, oh my gosh, only psychopaths can solve this was how it started. And then it said, if you can solve it, you have ADHD. Like, it was this prize to win. And it was the most simple thing to do, but it showed the person doing it wrong. Like, how messed up is that? Right. And then they're going.

getting ads. So then they're told they have these, these conditions, and then they're getting ads for pharmaceuticals, like, who knows at what age that, you know, questions that happen through on these iPads. I mean, it's just, it's devastating. It's truly devastating. So if we can arm children with information around, like, again, it doesn't, it's not necessarily labels, but it's how does something feel in your body? And then how do you talk about that feeling? How does that connect to thoughts that are going on in your mind? What are different tools that you can, do to express, perhaps it's through words, perhaps it's through drawing, perhaps it's through music, perhaps it's through dance. What are different tools that you can tap into or use now to

regulate? I think the self-regulation is so, it's not taught as well. Well, right? Because now we have iPads and phones that people can just, that kids can just grab onto and they can just use that to kind of distract themselves. And again, it's now we're teaching like distractions. And it's not intentional. It's just the state of where we're at right now that we have to be like super cognizant of like what's actually happening. And I think kids just need, they're going to need a lot more tools around self-discipline, self-regulation, just like greater education around distractions and how to like stay focused as well. And then also how to engage. in the world off of the screen.

Yeah. Yeah, it sounds so much like self-care, like self-love, self-respect, all these things about the self. What about, I think this is a good place for symbols, Jessica. What are the symbols that reflect that? Can we use some sort of, is there a symbol for self-love that you're aware of? Well, I think there's a lot of symbols. That's true.

Self-love. Well, I think, I mean, obviously going back to like the natural of like um i think like uh let me say i've got some yeah let's see no i think the symbols of of self-love i think are kind of just like symbols of of self right it's self and psyche so you know this is kind of like psychic equilibrium right here just kind of like alignment you know within across ourselves these are some of my my young and so too hard. But even something like this, this is psycholibito,

and this is the harmonization of the anima and the animus. You have to harmonize and find unity between your masculine and your feminine, I think, in order and fully love all aspects of yourself. Let me see what else I have here. Yeah, those are awesome cards, but what are those? Those are young Ian cards, or what are those? Yeah, so the Youngian Coaching School that I went to, the International Youngian Coaching School, which was founded by Dr. Abie Bourne, he invented Youngian Coaching. And he came up with these cards that are ultimately, you know, just kind of like representations of or symbols of archetypes of the collective unconscious.

So there are ways that, you know, when we're in our sessions, oftentimes we'll look for symbols intuitively that make. come through for a dilemma or a situation. But sometimes it's good to have cards in front of you so that you can, when you're working on the dilemma and I share these cards, your psyche is going to say, for whatever reason, this one is super interesting to me right now. I don't know why, but something just like sparked up inside of me when I saw this card. And then we can explore this card and this is the trickster card. So something within your psyche is telling you that, okay, the trickster needs to come out and play

or the trickster could be, you know, a potential resource here for you to engage with. And, you know, there's some words on the back here, instinctual, manipulative, artistic, clever. And, you know, something like that. Like, if I looked at that and I said, it's called manipulative, that's something that's going to give me pause and I'm not going to want to go there because obviously manipulation is like really upsets me. And so that word could perhaps, like, bring up a past experience or a wound that needs healing that I would have never, like I might have asked a question about, I don't know, the rain. And then all of a sudden it's like manipulation. And all of a sudden something like fires up inside of me or burns inside of me.

I'm like, I don't want to go there. Past experience, no. But then all of a sudden, now we have to deal with it. So it's like, but the psyche is what your intuition is what will, out of all these cards in front of me will say, for some reason, this one, and then all of a sudden, once you see some of the words, you're like, oh, damn it. Yeah. No, I know why. Yeah, I was so excited.

I'm like, yeah, the trickster. And then I'm like, oh, wait a minute. Manipulet. Yeah, yeah, it's there. It's there. It's interesting to see. This would be awesome. Like, on some level, this kind of education could be brilliant for kids because it would really get them in tune with the different archetypes and help them understand on some level that,

hey, look, we play all these different roles. It's interesting to think about the role of roles and growing up on some level, right? Yeah. What I see this, too, with my kids, like, I see different aspects of them come out. Yeah, of course. All of a sudden, it's like the lover, like, full on, so cuddly, so loving, you know, then, like, they need something so the trickster comes out to play. Then all of a sudden the magician is here because they, like, magically, like, you know,

want to do something. And then all of a sudden, it's like this dark side that comes out, and it's like, oh, Jesus, how are we going to do it this thing? you know and then other times it's like ego because like you know see me see me see me see me I need to be seen and I think what happens is like we all have like kids very much expressed like the I think the variety of archetypes that we all have within our collective unconscious and like some show more intense some some some don't some you know maybe span across a lot of them some they only like show others or maybe that changes over age but I think like

to understand that that that, hey, you know, these are all aspects of you. You get to choose, you know, when to utilize these aspects. When is it right for you to utilize these aspects? And, you know, kind of create and become self, yourself, you know. So perhaps you are more comfortable being more dominant in, you know, the trickster archetype. Maybe that's your, for my, it's the child, the innocent. And when I saw that, I was like, what?

And then I remember, like, when I was younger, my math teacher always, you would always say, just, you're so naive, you're so naive. And I was like, should I be offended? I'm not sure. But, like, the, you know, that I think we, and I think as I got older, through experiences, I lost some of that innocence, and I lost some of that, that naivitate, however you said that word, not yet. And I think when I realized that, I was like, wow, like,

that actually is a part of me that I really, I think, suppressed in order to protect myself. You can't be naive. You can't be innocent because it'll get taken advantage of. And I think that if I had a better understanding of these different aspects of myself, then perhaps I would have protected that aspect of me in a different way and maybe found more honor around that aspect of myself, not saying, oh, this is. is like babyish or childish and needs to get stuffed away when you're younger. And then it becomes when you're older, okay, now how do I integrate these parts and you back into who I am now?

Because obviously that's a core element that needs to be integrated. That's part of my work or my mission here. Yeah, it's a great point. Being naive on some level is it's so beautiful because I think it speaks to the idea of you seeing the world, in a way that is harmonious. And it may not be true, but like it protects us on some level from living, from becoming to, to the right word I want to use.

It protects us from sliding into just some dark spots sometimes. It's, I think we all do it. I want to bring in the audience right here because I got some questions stacking up for us, Jessica. The first question comes to us from Eric O. Eric O., Eric O. says, what is the lie you were born into and how do you escape it? Oh, the lie I was born into and how do I escape that? Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is anxiety. I think that anxiety is that, like, that's a way of life.

And I think understanding how I was living in an anxious state. and to be able to understand that like that wasn't the way I needed to live and needed to be and to like understand why I was so anxious all the time, what was underneath the anxiety and who was I without the anxiety. So I think for me like the lie I was, I guess, born into would be this anxious state of fear. So maybe it's fear and how much like, and I think that I've taken that to say, okay, well, when something is fearful, when I am experiencing fear for a situation, obviously there's some things that you fear that you should stay away from. And, you know, we have our radar for that.

But other things where it might bring up anxiety or fear, perhaps there is some, that's something that we should be walking towards and finding courage to go deeper and go further in that. So I've used it as it's something that I experience. pretty tremendously if you're in anxiety over, you know, my young life, my teenage life and my young adult life. And it's been at the same time as it was such like a maybe a detriment, it's also been such a blessing at the same time. So I think any like any of these kind of things that I was born into obviously was for me to understand and overcome, but I benefited from

anxiety. So like, you know, maybe it was a lie, you know, that like I didn't have to be living that way, right? I didn't have to be living in fear and anxiety. But at the same time, like, that pushed me so far. And, you know, I think coupled with perfectionism, it's like to like a whole other realm. And, you know, who knows what I would have done if I wasn't dealing with that. But, you know, I look back now and all the kind of experiences and things that I've learned, it's been super beneficial for me. And it's allowed me to now be able to like do the work and offer what I can in the work that I do that otherwise I wouldn't have had the ability to. Yeah, it's a great answer, right? When I start peeling back the onion, Eric, I started thinking

the lie that we were born into is like we're doing it all wrong. Like especially, think about what you're born into. For a guy, when a baby, a lot of the times when a male is born, the first thing they do is like genital mutilation. Like you come right out into this world and they're like, we got to get rid of this. Like, wait a minute. What if I need that? You know, like, we're doing it all wrong on so many levels. You come into this clinical place with like these crazy white lights beaming down on

you. Like, what does that do to a kid's psyche? And the first thing they do is like, we got to get rid of this. But it's more than that. Like you're kind of born into fear. Maybe that's part of an initiation too. It's like, okay, now you're here. Here it comes.

Like, we're just thrust into this world where there's so much, you know, uncomfortableness. and pain and it's crazy to think about being born into a system like that, right? Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. I mean, we're right. We are fed a bunch of lies around how we're living, what's, you know, the right way to live, what's the right way to work, how much time should we dedicate to the purpose living, how do we heal ourselves, you know, how to, well, I guess we're taught that we can't heal ourselves, right?

We're taught that here's medicine or here's a pill for that. Yeah. Yeah, I think everything. thing is like from my experience a lot of the things that I learned was like pretty ass backwards you know totally all the things that I thought I should be should be doing was like pretty detrimental and actually like harming me in very many ways and yeah I think that we're definitely fed this this lie um this program of how things are supposed to be and and it's it's just not true and that's that kind of like unlearning and trying to figure out like who you underneath all

of it that's maybe that's part of it just going to be like the first 40 years like the first 35 years are learning to do everything wrong. And then people hit it at different ages, but maybe that's what, you know, the right of passage and the initiation is you have to go through all these things until you finally had enough and you start seeing things clearly. And only you as an individual. You get to choose when your initiation is you get to choose when you start seeing things. You get to choose when you finally had enough.

And that's where you start walking through that flame. What are your thoughts? Yeah, I agree. I mean, Carl Young says you're up until 40, you're just doing research, right? And like, I think, like, too, like the way it comes like our life is structured by the time people get, like, sometimes people are just sober now between family life and work life and, and traumas and struggles that they're dealing with, like, people are sober now and they can't wait to get to retirement. And often people, this doesn't happen always, but a lot of times by the time people get to retirement, they're so tired. And then once they're retired, like their health and everything. starts to decline, right? Because they haven't like really kind of like found something else to really live for. Like you're living for your kids, you're living for your job, right? And I think

that's all backwards. Like how are we supposed to know like who we are and who we're here to be? You know, we have all of that going on. So by the time you get to 40, like your life is really just starting. You have like an incredible opportunity to like just thrive, I believe, from here drawn out. You've learned so many incredible lessons. You have so many experiences now. You've had an opportunity to see, like, feel like what feels right, what doesn't feel right? What have I done that I've liked? What have I done wrong or that I haven't liked? And then I think you start to realize, too, like how much you have the ability to, like, truly create your own reality. And once you, like, really kind of tap into like that power that we all have to, to create our own reality, then, you know, where you take it is, is

entirely up to you. And then it's like just kind of like creating your own dream. It's like lucid dreaming, you know, to really just start to like shift, to start to like put your attention towards, put your energy towards, start to make choices that are all aligned with where you want to be and where you see yourself in the future. And yeah, I mean, by 40, your life is like really just beginning. Like there's so much life ahead of you. Yeah, it's a brilliant point.

And it's. It's so easy to just put everything on hold. And it starts at a young age. Like, oh, I can't wait until I'm a teenager. Oh, I can't wait until I turn 18. Oh, I can't wait until I'm 21. I can't wait until I own a house. I can't wait until I have kids.

I can't wait until I'm in retirement. But if you keep putting it off and you, and it's easy to do because you have all these distractions, like, what am I going to do if I quit there? What am I going to do if I do this? But if you continually put it off, just taking that first step into becoming the very best version of yourself. And it takes courage.

It takes a lot of courage to do. You might have to leave a relationship. You might have to leave a job. But if you keep putting it off, the only one you're really doing a disservice to is yourself. And then, of course, all your relationships, right? Don't you think? Yeah.

And you're not coming into, like, who you're meant to feel. Like, even for your relationships, for your relationship with yourself, relationship with partner, kids, friends, family. Like, the more of you that you can come into, the better for you and everyone involved. If you are just holding yourself back and staying the same, you know, your other people are missing out on their ability to evolve by you staying the same

as well as your ability. So I always encourage, like, if there's anything like you've ever wanted to do or experience or explore, but you felt like, oh, I don't know, that's weird. Maybe it's not for me. Like, I don't know. Just do it. Just go do it. Like, literally, if there's, like, I picked up the harp two and a half years ago,

why the hell did I do that, like, 48 years old, you know? Like, I've never, I've never read music. I, you know, I play the flute. I don't even know it. I was a little little kid. But it's been like just even like that experience alone has been super transformative. You know, now at 40 years old going back to school for acupuncture. Again, like that's, you know, sometimes they even quite like Jessica.

Again, like now you're going through something else. But like I know why I have the greater vision and it all makes sense to me. Right. And you have to make like these pretty significant shifts in your lives. And it not only impacts me, but it impacts other people. But again, like that's part of the journey. that's necessary. So I always say if there's anything you've ever been curious about or wanted to explore,

like just, just, I'll say, you know, dip your toe in, but I say just do it. At least take one little baby step and dip the toe in, but like,

just try it. Like if you wanted to sing, go sing. If you want to play an instrument, go play an instrument. If you want to play a sport, like go play. Like there's,

it's almost like these aspects of play too that like we stuff down, that we're not supposed to be doing these things because we're not kids anymore. Like we are like we just, like we are kids right we still have our inner child within us and and that still like always wants to live and be present and why not like that is the fun aspects of ourselves right but we're like oh no that's not allowed like you know I'm an adult now I'm a serious adult like no this is life have fun live you know let these different aspects of you come out to play because that is like your vitality that is your vibrance that is your uniqueness and I think that's what like allows

for creativity and like different aspects of yourself to like really kind of like shine through. And again, like, it doesn't benefit just you. It benefits everybody. Yeah. I love that word creativity. The idea of creativity seems to me to be an altered state of awareness. And everybody knows what I'm talking about. When you're doing that thing you love, like time just kind of flies by or you start having some different thoughts come up or maybe you have no thoughts at all. But like you're in this moment. You're really in the present moment. What are your thoughts on the idea of creativity and altered states? Oh, yeah. Well, Well, I think through creativity, like some of the, like, pretty magical experiences have happened to me.

I'll show you. Let me just grab some. Yeah, please. Let's see. So, okay, so here's something. So I always said, I'm not creative. You know, I'm a businesswoman. This was me before, you know, of course, I could have.

But business woman, you know, I'm in insurance and genomics. I wear business suits. Like, I'm not creative. But then once I, like, really start to, like, look back. Like, I was creative. I was just creative in a different way. I was creative with people, with relationship, with how I expressed. But anyway, I never thought I was creative artistically.

And then I started to paint. I started to engage in painting and in drawing. And I just really like, it really turned something on to me. So I was, wow, I actually am kind of good at painting and drawing. Like, what's good anyway? Everyone's good at it. Whatever comes through to you is good. You know, we just always compare to what somebody else puts out there, and that's how we say if it's good or not.

But anyway, so I've started to paint more, and I got a teacher to teach me how to work with oil paints. And we had some homework to do. And then I had two assignments, I'd like, you know, half hour to do it. And then all of a sudden, it was like, there was something I really wanted to paint. So I said, all right, I'm going to paint this. So I started painting this. And this is the tree with a bed inside of bed. So with a bedside, it's kind of like the safe space to go.

Lantern here. There's Ivy drawing all around. And this image of like this red bed came up. And I started drawing these little flowers too. I've never seen flowers like this. And it's a lot of red over red. So I'm like, why do I keep drawing this red over red? So anyway, I'm just like going with it.

I allowed it to, this vision that I need to get down on paper to come through. I allowed more of this red stuff to red flowers to come on. And then I finished it. And this is kind of like, you know, sometimes when I, would it get anxious or anything like that, my safe space is always like going into a trait. So fast forward. So I drew this. I was like, okay, it was a nice, quick little fun drawing that I did.

That felt good. And then fast forward, you know, a month later, I get to Peru for this San Pedro retreat. And all over this place, just in this retreat center, are these tiny little flowers that look like this that the hummingbirds sit. Whoa. So I was just amazed at just this kind of like visionary experience that came through, so I put this down on paper.

I did. It felt really good. And then to now go and see kind of the synchronicity of these flowers all around the Maloka where we were, you know, working with the medicine, as well as in some other places where I would just go sit and kind of integrate. So it was just such a beautiful experience to see, like, what your creativity, creativity is like beyond, you know, it's like, and it is, it's messengers. It's, it's teaching you about yourself, about yourself, you know.

It is allowing different aspects of yourself to come through and to be shared with the world. So I just find, well, one, we're all creative, right? It is our, like, innate nature. it's also something we're supposed to be doing. Like it is we're supposed to be living through creativity because it's an authentic expression of self. And authentic expression of self is what's really needed in in this world for ourselves and others. So it's medicine, it's, it's healing, it's, it brings joy. It helps to move emotions out. It helps to, you know, it's also really helpful for processing trauma and also like understanding what's going on within the unconscious.

I work a lot with art with my clients because it's helpful to explore your shadow. It's also helpful to get messages from your psyche to help you understand what's going on with a dilemma and to get like basically like little bits of wisdom from your psyche to come through in art to say, hey, here's some ideas on how. to move through this or how to move forward in this. I love it. It's so interesting to think about how the act of sitting down in writing or drawing or painting or creating at some level can manifest real change in your life and the way we understand information. There was a really cool study done a long time ago about people with epilepsy.

And they took these people that had epilepsy really bad and they cut the corpus callosum, which is the little strand that goes between the right and the left hemisphere. And what they found is that it stopped people from having seizures, but they found some really interesting evidence, too, that they did studies with these people that had their corpus callosum cut, and they would take the pin in their right hand, and they would ask them, what did you want to be when you were older? And they would write down, like, firemen or policeman or teacher, and they would put the pen in their left hand and ask them the same question,

and it would be, like, astronaut, artist, and they were trying to figure out, like, whoa, what's going on here? And they figured out on some level, like the two different hemisphere, and the way it thinks. But I think that that particular experiment speaks to the idea of creation. And sometimes we lose that idea of what we really want it to be or we think we lose it. But it's always there. It's back to the inner child.

And it comes back to drawing. And it comes back to maybe the shadow work and Carl Young on some level. It's pretty fascinating to think about, right? How it's always there. Yeah. It does need to be awakened. I think it does need to be nurtured too. It definitely needs to be nurtured.

And I think it's very easy, you know, especially in like the age that we're at with like social media and, and the phone and technology. Like there's so many distractions. So you think like, like, sometimes I'll be on here. It's like, okay, well, I'm consuming, right? I'm on social media consuming, right? I can be creating. And that was like a big shift for me just to, you know, if I'm sitting here and I'm consuming so much, like how does that feel versus me actually like creating something? But yeah, it's super important.

And if you see like little kids, they're creating all the time. They're constantly creating. And like, if you see like the joy that they experience through through that creation and like the light that comes on and like all the like really magical things that they end up bringing to life. But we can take that same, that same curiosity and activities into our adult lives. I mean, that's where some of like the most, you know, remarkable inventions come forth. right? Young is a pretty good quote. I can't remember it right now,

but on how nothing really is invented without play. Like we're not going to get anything new or revolutionary if we're not playing. We have to play. And creativity, of course, is play.

Yeah, it's a great point. It makes me just think about how much time is often wasted through the structures of authority. Like, you got to do it this way or learn from this person or there. Like it's such a better method to go and experiment and have the lived experience of trying

something new and getting to see it different at so many different levels. Yeah. It's so stifling. Yeah, right? Under that type of like growing up and being in different roles, I've been under that type of management. And it is, it can be debilitating, to be honest. It's like you have to like fit into this mold of what someone else, the structure of

someone else deemed to be the appropriate way to sell or present or whatever it might be. And it's so stifling. Like if, you know, if you think about like employers. Yeah. You can, you know, teach your employees to be creative and to lead with creativity. Like, imagine what they could come up with if they're like celebrated around creativity, even if it's not, even if it's not something that you move forward with. Like I'm working with an individual at Enthia.

And he's a young, he's graduating college soon, so young students. And he's, you know, doing some work in sales with me in business developments. And I am using none of the traditional sales tactics or anything that, you know, I was taught through the books around sales. It's none of that. It's all around encouraging his creativity, encouraging him to be bold, encouraging him to be exploring him to be exploring. all, all, you know, with integrity and authenticity. That's the number one. I want you to be, I want you to be courageous and I want you to be bold and I want you

to be creative, but it has to be, you have to be authentic with everything you do. And with everything you do, you also have to carry, you know, a high level of integrity. And through that, he's been able to be pretty successful. And I find like his growth is happening. at a more frequent pace. You know, then my experience, when I was told, like, this is how you have to do it, I would get into these, like, situations or presentations, and I would feel like afraid that if I said the wrong thing or if I didn't do it the right way, then I was going to get in

trouble. And I think many people feel that, especially, you know, young coming into certain roles. But when I started to give myself the freedom, and I had the, this is, I think we have to do this, I want to start to give myself the freedom to, to, to mess up, to do it in maybe a non-traditional or non-conventional approach or maybe a way that, like, others wouldn't do it, but this was my way. When I really like started to lean into that, that's when things started to happen, right? Because then I'm in alignment. When I'm in alignment, I'm radiating at a different frequency and I'm creating more opportunities for myself

because I'm in a better, like a better energy that's going to, you know, attract. what's best and better outcomes. So I think that we do, you know, I think in conventional companies, sales is done like all wrong. You see it all the time with like the very like, you know, all the emails and spams you guys. It's like, finalize it first. And then you do this and then you do that.

And it's all junk. Yeah. It's interesting. I'm sure. I love it. I think it speaks volumes of where we're at today when you start seeing like all these layoffs and this rush to productivity. We've gotten it so wrong.

Like we're just, you're watching a system collapse because it's afraid of the change that needs to happen in order for it to become successful in so many levels. I feel like we are moving away, especially in media and sales, we're moving away from manipulation into meaning. And you just explaining this mentorship that you have with this gentleman, like, it's such a beautiful thing to see for many reasons, not only moving from manipulation to meaning, but also it's incredible to get to see someone. trying to help a younger version of themselves get to where you are faster. Like that's such an important part of it too on so many levels. Yeah, it is. And I am grateful for the opportunity to be able to offer that. And that's ultimately how I learn.

Like I invest from, I would network all the time. I would just reach out to people that I met or people on LinkedIn and just say, hey, can we have a quick chat? And I learned better, I think, sitting down and having conversations from people than any other book I ever read. Because I had the opportunity to learn from their experiences and to just see how it would touch them or change them or impact them and, you know, be able to get these really valuable lessons that they were willing to share with me. You know, it's like 20, 30, 50, 50 years, 60 years of life lessons that people are willing to share and offer to you is like, it's an honor to be able to receive that. So I always valued those networking discussions. And like even networking with someone younger than me or same age,

you know, everyone had something to offer. And I always spoke to be able to give something back to them too from whatever, you know, I was able to offer. But yeah, and I think it's important too because we have young people that are coming into this into the workforce. And, you know, to your point around like manipulation, like how are, How are we running these companies? How are employees, you know, running their own roles?

I know we've talked about this, you know, I think on a few other podcasts around like being the CEO of your own position or CEO of your own role. And when we're teaching employees values to lead by and to live by, but to allow them the ability to be creative and to try new things, I think that's where your company can transform because this individual or the employees have, I think that the belief is in them and the trust is in them. That as long as they're operating within the values of the company, that they have the ability to try new things or to come up with different ways versus like, oh, the CEO knows best

or the leaders and the executives know best because they're older and they've been doing this longer. Sometimes like young people, they have like really great ideas and we need to mesh and merge all this. Like the whole hierarchy system, I just think is just like, it's not beneficial. Like, there's no hierarchy. We're all in a community and a company is a community, like an employer, union, it's a community. It should be looked at as a community. Everyone has roles and everyone needs to be honored in their ability to shine in that unique role and like truly own it to the best of their ability and to show up in that fullness. Like that's where value should be

measured is how do you show up in your fullness in this role and responsibility that you carry? Without you, we can't move forward. Like, you are such an integral part. And for every, every aspect of the job or company has that level of importance in my view. I love that. It reminds me of a, there's a really cool story about the 60s moon landings when, I guess, Werner von Braun and some top brass were walking through like the halls of NASA, like at three in the morning one time.

And they've seen this guy that was like a janitor was there. And they're like, what are you doing here? It's like three in the morning. And he goes, I'm putting a man on the moon, sir. You know, but it just reflects like, look, we're in this together. And they're like, you're right, you are. Come on, you know. But it just reflects this idea of community that seems to be burgeoning again.

It's like finally the mycelium's coming together and we're seeing this fruit of community that's so necessary and so beautiful. And just rising to the surface as it should be in. Jessica, always, this is such, I always love talking to you. I love the way you handle questions. Like when I threw the shame question at you, it was a beautiful answer. It was a tough one. But that's the initiation, and that's what we're here. It's the voyage of initiation.

And as we're landing the plane here, where can people find you? What do you got coming up and what are you excited about? Sure, so you can find me. My website is jessica the youngian.com. You can find me on LinkedIn. Please connect on Instagram underscore Jessica Tracy underscore. Please connect there as well. And then Enthia is, we're doing some really cool work with insurance for psychedelic medicine.

So please connect and find us over there. My partner and I do have a retreat coming up as well in July in Colorado. So more to come, but feel free to reach out about that. Doing it exciting actually in a week and a half a week now, leading a shadow work workshop, incorporating the drum, incorporating the gong as well. So that'll be fun to experience. But I think for anyone that's interested in kind of incorporating any type of Jungian psychology, youngy modalities, shadow work archetype into their cooperation, into their own personal coaching

or, you know, leadership role, definitely feel free to reach out. But I'm always happy just to have conversations and talk about any of this or if you're, you know, about psychedelics. I'm kind of an open, open book, open door. I love it. Ladies and gentlemen, go down to the show notes, reach out to Jessica. If any of this hit home for you, reach out. She's got a free consultation down there where you can hit the link and talk to her yourself.

I always enjoy these conversations. Hang on briefly afterwards, Jessica, but to everybody within the sound of my voice and everyone who participated today, thank you so much. Have a beautiful day. Thank you.