TrueLife - William Zorn - This is your brain on drugs & other lies they told me

Episode Date: November 17, 2023

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Aloha, cannabis enthusiasts and marketing mavens! Today, we have the pleasure of diving into the vibrant world of cannabis retail marketing, guided by none other than the maestro himself, William Zorn.As an expert in all things digital marketing and a wizard in the cannabis industry, William weaves a narrative where brands aren’t just logos; they’re an experience, a feeling that lingers with every thought of your favorite cannabis store. With a background steeped in management, copywriting, affiliate marketing, and event planning, he’s the maestro orchestrating the symphony of turning good brands into something downright extraordinary.But wait, it’s not just about marketing jargon and strategies – William is a community builder extraordinaire. He understands the heartbeat of social media and email marketing, transforming them into pathways that not only engage but forge lasting connections. And when it comes to branding, your logo is just the tip of the iceberg. It’s about crafting an emotion, a resonance that echoes in the minds of your customers.Your website, often the gateway to your brand, is where William weaves his magic to ensure that every click leaves a lasting impression. And let’s not forget the visual feast – high-quality photography that captures not just products but the essence of your brand, allowing the community to truly get to know you.As the driving force behind grnhouse, William has left an indelible mark on the cannabis landscape. Don’t just take our word for it; hear it from Shannon at Tokyo Smoke, Kyle from BOAZ, and Vish of Forever Buds. They sing praises of Will’s support, quick responses, and the magic he brings to pop-ups.And if that’s not enough, venture into the grnhouse blog, William’s personal nursery of cannabis marketing wisdom. Whether deciphering Flow-Through, navigating strikes in BC, or unraveling the secrets of Instagram for cannabis retailers, his insights are a treasure trove.So, join me in welcoming the cannabis marketing virtuoso, the wizard behind the grnhouse magic, William Zorn! Get ready for a journey where marketing meets cannabis, and every episode is a nugget of wisdom waiting to be rolled out.http://linkedin.com/in/william-zorn-18a1b4157https://grnhouse.agency/ One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Heirous through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life podcast. I hope everybody's having a beautiful day. Hope the sun is shining. Hope the birds are singing. I hope the wind is at your back.

I've got an incredible show for you today to piggyback on some of the interesting people I've been talking about. It's a topic that if you grew up the way I grew up or you're interested in altered states of consciousness or seeing the world a little bit different, I think you're going to love this show. We have the incredible William Zorn. And for all the cannabis enthusiast and marketing mavens out there today, William Zorn is an expert in all things, digital marketing and a wizard in the cannabis industry. He weaves a narrative that where brands aren't just logos. They're an experience, a feeling that lingers within every thought of your favorite cannabis store.

With the background steeped in management, copywriting, affiliate marketing, and event planning, he's the maestroating the symphony of turning good brands into something downright extraordinary. William Zorn, I'm stoked you here today, my friend. Maybe you can give a little bit more of a backstory than I gave there. I can flesh it out for people. Who you are? What you got going on? and the way you see the world.

Yeah, well, thank you, George, for that lovely intro. That was beautiful. Quite a wordsmith. Yeah, no, my name is William. I go buy hippie online. That comes back from my old days. I started out in cannabis before it was an industry that you were allowed to do so. I started in Legacy Market back in my hometown of Ottawa.

Shout out the 613 one time. You know, I was opening stores and working. and working in these legacy dispensaries, afraid that the cops are going to go ahead and kick in my door every single day. And somehow this beautifully transitioned into a legal job that I can go ahead and put on my resume and put it on LinkedIn,

which is where I'm at the lovely George. Yeah, I work for Greenhouse Agency. We are Canada's top digital marketing and in-person marketing, specifically for cannabis. It is a company with everyone who works with me, their background, is relatively similar to my own, people who really love the plant and want to elevate it a little bit further.

And then, you know, I'm also over on Twitch, where we kind of get a little bit less serious with it. And we talk about cannabis in the way that most people talk about cannabis, which is nice and stoned. I love it. I love it. On some level, you seem like such a bridge. to me. You know, it seems to me that you're bridging the gap between this new world that's

emerging about cannabis and the way in which it can be a plant medicine in which it can help us achieve a higher state of conscience and see the world differently. And this other branch, it's like gaming and using it in a way that is more than medical. It's more like, it's more than medical and beyond recreational. It's like, it's just new way it's emerging. It's sort of a lifestyle in a way. And it's without shame and without stigma. And for so many of us, for so long, it's had this stigma about it, whether it was Chi Chang or these guys are stoners, man, or, you know, people that use that are usually burnouts or something like that. But that's so not true. You know, so many people use cannabis that are highly effective and highly creative. And what do you think about this relationship

that has been changing with cannabis? How do you navigate those waters? It's tough. It's tough, right? Like you can only change your own. perception you can't change other people's like i you know similar background back in high school i was known as a stoner i didn't even smoke weed back then i didn't really start smoking weed till university i was dating a grower's daughter so naturally uh that was something that became in my wheelhouse but you know i was known as this uh as a stoner back of the day i had people coming up to like try to get weed from me all the time and i was like man i just have like long hair i just i looked like a burnout and i will absolutely uh wear that title proudly but you know the one thing i learned

from working in the legacy market. I worked in, I worked for weeds, glass and gifts primarily. And they were medical. They operated in that beautiful gray zone where it was the Supreme Court of Canada said medical cannabis patients have the right to access their medicine

in a physical location. It shouldn't just be through the mail. And then we kind of took that and we ran with it. And we're like, oh, you have a pill bottle? Yeah, no, absolutely. Like, come on in here. We'll allow that. But the one thing I learned is that,

like everyone smokes weed. I used to, in my old store, the one that I opened back in Ottawa, I had a first responders discount. That was my cheeky way to try to get the cops to like me. But I had paramedics and nurses, actual police officers coming in and buying cannabis from me. I was selling to people from the Ministry of Defense, even, like all these highly active people, and I saw the way in which people used cannabis. And yeah, some people used it in more of like what we would acknowledge as medical context.

Like, like, hey, I have like really bad pain. I have arthritis. I don't want to be using benzos and opioids. I want to use something a little bit more natural. So I saw that. But then what I saw with everyone else, and, you know, we talked about like more than recreational. Yeah. And not quite medical.

I think that all cannabis can be broken down as medical use. Like if you really, really think about it, especially. given like what health Canada says so like some of the things that I deal with daily are health Canada's uh health Canada's rules about marketing and they say well you can't promise this you can't promise that you can't promise you know better sleep like a lot of people just use weed to sleep yeah which is like the cool boring way to do it right like that's how everyone's mom does it like they smoke a joint and then they go to bed and like that's medical if you have a if you use it to just unwind after a long day in the way that I do well something

could say like that is dealing with anxiety and then that is a medical use too so like we're now that cannabis is legal and like everyone has seen that like okay society hasn't collapsed you know uh there's no there was a slight increase in traffic fatalities uh or in traffic accidents in regards to that but i would also argue we finally started measuring for it because it's legal and we kind of know what we're looking for you know like we saw society didn't collapse like everyone used it because everyone smoked weed before Everyone smoked weed. I remember my teachers in high school smoked weed. Shout out to Miss S. I won't say your full name. But she used to come in and do potlucks for us. We would watch movies in anthropology class. And she would be there with like a George Foreman grill and a flat top stove and make us burgers with the reddest eyes I have ever seen.

You know, like everyone smokes cannabis. And, you know, they're something to be said about responsible use and the way that we do it. but then a lot of people can smoke responsibly all the time. I'm a single guy. I go on dates now and I have to explain that. I get quite often when they learn what I do. They're like, are you high right now? And I have to be like, like a little, but I'm like always baseline a little high.

So I think this speaks to the idea of behavior in linguistics, which is something that happens in the world of marketing. And definitely the way we model reality, our language, the words, we use model the life we live, whether it's the inner dialogue we have. And it definitely changes our behavior. And so I'm going to get a little philosophical here. What do you think happens to the way you model reality and the linguistic use that you use when you're high? Does being high change the relationship you have to the world? And if so, how? Everyone's a little different with it, right? Yeah. We could smoke the same thing together in the same room, George.

And we could have like two wildly different experiences. Sure. Just like the way the body chemistry goes. But from what I've seen and anecdotal examples that I've come across, yeah, it changes the way that we perceive it. I find, and I can only speak really for myself, it slows me down. It makes me take a deeper look at things. You know, we're in the society where everything's like quick, quick, you know, order,

order food on your phone. It'll be there in 20 minutes. cannabis, at least a relationship I have, it makes me kind of slow down, take a step back, re-examine things, think about it a little bit deeper. And from angles that maybe I wasn't exploring before. And that can be attributed to a lot of things. I think with cannabis, a big thing is that it breaks down people's ego. It helps you put that to the back seat. As old hippies say, you know, you stop being a me, start being a wee.

You're part of the whole connected to the universe. I wouldn't go quite that far, but I would say that like it encourages different thinking. And that's why, you know, people have and will continue to use it in the way that we see it, right? Like a prominent example is the Beatles. The second we gave those like four nerdy British dudes like joints and drugs, the music changed so much because they were examining and they were seeing the world through a different light.

And they were, they were hearing sounds in a different way. it alters perception so so much at least for me and for everyone else that I see and you know there are the the daily stoners who smoke all day long the people who back when I was working in dispensaries like I've been smoking since you were a twinkle in your dad's eye maybe maybe their state isn't as altered but it changes something if it didn't change something we wouldn't do it right yeah yeah it's really well said and I I think that that that state that change in perception is what helps a lot of people in the medical field because a lot of times

when we talk about medicine, we talk about people that are facing anxiety, people that are facing depression, maybe people that are facing eating disorders. But all of those particular ailments can be helped out by changing the way you view yourself or changing the way you view your situation. And I think plant medicines do it, whether it's cannabis or psychedelics. I think that these particular medicines have a way of helping us see ourselves, helping us see confrontation, helping us model reality differently. And that's why I ask that question. I think it's that relationship to ourselves that the plants can help us change. And like so much of the problems we have in the world today are these ideas of perception. And what do you think about that? Do you think

that it helps us perceive ourselves and our position in the world differently? And maybe that's why it's such a medical benefit to us. Yeah, absolutely. I think he hit hit the nail right on the head there. It changes the way. Like I really like the example that you just gave of, you know, people with eating disorders. That was something that I saw regularly when I was working in medical dispensaries as well as recreational dispensaries because I'm going to be so honest with you.

That's the need that recreational dispensaries fill right now. People who are going there are shopping medically. They just need to alter their verbiage. So the 20-year-old bud tender doesn't get in trouble and doesn't have, you know, health Canada or my governing body here would be AGCO, doesn't have them breathing down their neck. You know, like with people with eating disorders especially, not only does cannabis go ahead and like stimulate appetite in a lot of way, I find it changes people's relationship with food while they might have this, very combative relationship with food before consuming cannabis.

Afterwards, they view it as fuel for them. They view it as something that they need. They view it as something to be enjoyed rather than to be something feared. And maybe when that high wears off, they go back to that other state of feeling about it. And they're their way that they perceive their relationship with food. But I find for a lot of people, it helps them keep that mentality moving forward. at least a little bit, right? You can you can only grow incrementally.

So, yeah, it changes perception. It changes our relationship, you know. It makes people more empathetic, I think. That's something that I really see with cannabis. Like I have a ton of friends. I have a liberal arts degree. So politics and philosophies or something that I was very used to speaking about. And, you know, you'd speak with these people when they're stone, cold, sober,

and their convictions are their convictions. They're like, this is it. No, no, no, you're wrong. You're an idiot if you don't see it the way I do. And then you like smoke a joint together. And they're like, yeah, you know what? Like, I can get how you're coming from that angle. Because, you know, you don't think you're the bad guy in this.

I don't think I'm the bad guy in this. We have our perceptions and reality often lies somewhere in the middle. Yeah, I love that. You know, when you look back at some of the indigenous ways when they would pass around a peace pipe, like there's an offering. There's a sacrifice that's made. And sometimes that sacrifice is putting your priest's, preconceived notions up here for a minute. Okay, I do have really strong feelings about that.

But I'm going to set those aside for a minute and actually listen to what you have to say. Because maybe in this moment, we can begin to influence one another. And I really think that there's something to be said about solving problems through a ceremonial setting. And often that comes with a plant medicine or at least the ability for people to set aside their preconceived notions. The purpose of an argument is not to win is to solve a problem. And it sounds to me that a lot of that can be done when we have this offering in front of us, whether it's a joint, whether it is maybe mushrooms or whether it is just a ceremonial setting. I really think that this is one way we can set the stigma aside.

Like plant medicines, be it cannabis or mushrooms or psychedelics, they still carry this giant stigma will. Like, what can we do about that, man? What do you think? It's honest conversation and exposure, I think, right? Like my father, God love the man. He hated plant medicine to start with. I remember I was 16 years old. I had a half gram of weed.

I had just smoked for the first time. I felt amazing. I got home. I hit it in my little bedside counter. I then spent an hour making sure nothing smelled like weed, a breeze everywhere, open windows. I heard the, as I laid down on my, on my bed to enjoy the high finally, I heard the garage door open. And I looked at the time and I was like, he's not supposed to be there.

And he came up and he's like, where is it? And I didn't even debate. I was like, yeah, all right, here you go. Here it is, man. And, you know, he was like, I'm going to call the cops. You're a burnout. You're a dumb ass. This and that and this and that.

And, you know, to get a little personal, you know, I, as a teenager, I really struggled with my mental health. I had a lot of shit going on, man. And I was on SSRIs. I was on, and this isn't me bashing conventional medicine. Sure. And listening there, conventional medicine works for some, but for some people, it doesn't. And for me, it just didn't work. And it made the problem so much worse.

So over time, I ended up myself seeking out a medical cannabis prescription and starting to use plant medicine rather than traditional forms of medicine. And I got better. I got a lot better. And I remember I was on the phone with my dad one day. and he's like, wow, you know, like you sound so different, you know, you're not in crises anymore. You're doing really well. What is it? And I was like, well, I stopped taking my meds.

And he freaked the fuck out. And he's like, oh, my God, are you okay? You shouldn't do that. And I was like, well, no, like, I'm using cannabis instead. Yeah. And he was like, oh, really? And he saw that, you know, I was in university. My grades had gotten better since I started smoking dope, as he would put it, smoking dope, such like an old school term.

Totally. Me too. But he saw them like my grades went up. My financial situation got better. I was having better relationships at work. My relationship with my family got a lot better. My relationship with myself got relatively fixed. There's as much as it ever can be with one person.

So like exposing people to those stories like that and being like, hey man, it's not just like Cheech and Chong. They're not just like pulling out like the giant join up on Parliament Hill screaming to legalize it. Like, no, like we're using it as part of a healthy and fulfilling lifestyle and a productive lifestyle. And people see that more and more. And the longer, you know, I'm blessed. I'm over here in Canada. It's federally legal now.

And, you know, I see that attitude shifting. You know, I see people come into pot stores that would have never felt comfortable doing so back in the day. I mean, like, I was part of the first three stores that opened in my city because there was a lottery system to get a license. which is ridiculous. So there was three pot stores in a city of over a million people. So I kind of see a lot of the city's residents. And, you know, the people who weren't comfortable with it before, like they really opened up because now this legal stigma's gone.

They don't need to worry about losing their job, losing their home, not being able to get a bank loan, whatever it is. You know, they're able to enjoy it and experience it. And I think that once people have that experience with cannabis themselves and they see like, oh, it's not re for madness. I didn't like see the devil and want to go stab someone. You know, like they they have a better perception and then pair this with people like myself who have who have these stories of medical use and it being really effective and it helping them to live happy productive lives. That stigma starts to disappear really, really quickly. Yeah, that's well said. I appreciate that story.

I think it is the vulnerability and the courage to tell the story about, look, I use this and it helps me. And I don't, I know people are going to be offended by that. And I'm sorry, but let me tell you my story. And then you guys can be the judge of it because so many people have been affected by it. And, you know, I love storytelling. And I love the stories we tell ourselves. And I love the people that are confident enough to share their vulnerability and their stories. because I do think that helps destigmatize things.

For a long period of time, the stories we told about it seem to be coupled with burnout. And then, you know, it's these basically propaganda, whether it's reefer madness or it is, you know, the five o'clock news where they put this giant bag of weed and then they show these guns and then they show these people's ruined lives. They get people to equate ruin lives with this plan. You know, but it's not true.

I'm not saying there's not elements of, truth to it. Like sometimes you can find people that have gone down the wrong path and they happen to be partnered with with psychedelics or they be partnered with with weed in some ways. But it doesn't mean that that's what led them to that path. And I do think it comes back to storytelling. And the stories we tell ourselves are the stories that shape our world. And as you and I were talking as we started the show, it's amazing to see the relationship with with these different plants. It's changing. You know, when we spoke about in the beginning of the show, it used to be you would buy a bag of Maui-Wa from your uncle's friend who had a, you know, a little hideout somewhere.

But now we have these turp profiles and we have personalized medicine and we have stories of people who have gotten better and gotten off hard drugs by using cannabis like that. What do you think about this maturing relationship that we have going on and the way that's performing and what maybe you could speculate into the future if we continue to see this relationship change in a positive, mature way. What can we look forward in the future? Yeah, I think, exactly as you said, storytelling is huge with it because everyone wants stats and,

you know, like solid figures and numbers. But I think that like once you hear these anecdotal examples, you know, I was just quickly typing to get the name so I didn't fuck it up. But like the story of Charlotte Figgie, you know, the child with epilepsy who nothing was working. And this family was so scared that they were going to lose their daughter that they were like, okay, you know what? Like, sure, we'll try weed. We'll try whatever it is. Yeah. And now we have like this beautiful medicine. You know, cannabis, cannabis is growing and evolving exactly as you said. You know, it used to be, do you want a bag of weed? Yeah. What is it? It's weed, man. Do you want it?

And now, you know, consumers, at least where where I'm at in the areas where it's becoming more acceptable, maybe that's legally, maybe that's, you know, public perception. Maybe it's both. You know, cannabis is changing. The way that people shop for cannabis is changing, you know, we've seen, you know, back in the day, legacy market cultivars were the biggest thing. Like, what is it Charlotte's Webb? Is it Maui-Wawi, as he said, you know, what are we looking for here? But now, now that it's legal, we're able to take a look behind it and we're like, oh, you know, a cultivar, if it's same seed or same clone, if it's in two different environments, it's going to grow differently. It's going to produce a different chirping profile, different minor and major cannabinoids. And you get into the nitty gritty of what is happening with it. Like I, you know, we're talking about what to look forward for the future. This is something to look forward to, but like also not for me. Like I always I always tell people now, I'm like, weed isn't cool anymore, man.

Like, it's not. You know, weed content back in the day was like some dude that you look like he was in like he was your friend's older brother, you know, that lived in the basement. And he's like smoking like two grams to shatter to the face. And now it's almost like wine mom content. Like that's what I've seen. Like that's the biggest change that has has come from it. And I think that the more knowledge we get, the more boring and normalized cannabis is going

to be. And like that's okay. Like we don't need to to really. hold on to certain elements of cannabis culture. What we do need to do is make this something that's easily digestible for everybody. So everybody can derive the benefits or at least see where the benefits are. You know what I mean? We isn't for everybody.

I will fight tooth and nail. I'm not one of those stoners who's like, oh, man, you just haven't tried the right strain yet, dude. My uncle grows some gas. It's going to work for you, dude. No, like that's an immature and a childish way to look at it. you know, one medicine isn't for everybody. If it was, we'd have this beautiful elixir that would heal everything, but we don't.

Everyone's body is different. The way that we interact with medicines, whether it's traditional pharmacopoeia or whether it is plant medicines, you know, it's a very individualized, personalized thing. So the larger, the longer we go into cannabis being in the mainstream, the more boring and normalized it's going to be, but that's what we need to fight the stigma. Yeah, I like that. It's growing up in a way where you get past this rebellious stage and then you sort of become part of the solution instead of being part of the problem. And I see it growing up in that way.

It's interesting to think about. But this kind of leads us into this idea of branding. We talked about stigma a little bit. And now we've talked about storytelling. And I think those two things sort of come together for a brand. You know, like how do we continue to keep this, this relationship going? Like, is there a place where it can flow into? Can it can cannabis permeate markets where it's acceptable, like gaming on some level?

Like, obviously there's already codes for game. Like you have to have a mature label. But, you know, you've got some interesting thoughts here. Maybe you can flesh that out for us a little bit. Yeah. No, the story storytelling is huge with any brand. Right. And if you're, if you're like me and you're in Canada, you're kind of kneecapped a little bit.

Health Canada's rules are extremely, extremely restrictive on what you can and what you can't say and how you can build a brand, you know, like packaging, for instance. Packaging is a huge part of a brand. And right now, cannabis is treated a little bit more like cigarettes and a little bit less like alcohol. But, you know, people are still fighting the good fight and we're working to do that. But, you know, I do work with people in America and see the American markets. And there are brands that are emerging and becoming winners and storytellers from it. There are these amazing marketing campaigns.

Like, I can't remember the name for the life of me, but Jay Z's cannabis brand did a really beautiful marketing campaign. And they, of course, you know, being Jay Z's label, they kind of lean into hip hop and a little bit of the renegade, rebellious side of things. but then they were also using that brand image to point out the inconsistencies in the laws that existed. So right along borders of states that were approved for cannabis and not approved for cannabis, they would have these billboards that would essentially say like, hey, wheat over here is like a five year sentence. But weed over here, you can go get it like Dave's, Dave's pot shop. Yeah. For instance, you know, brands are going to grow, but I think a challenge.

that Canadian brands find is that they feel very restricted by the marketing rules and regulations that exist right now. And they don't try to look outside of it. They're just looking at it dead on. They're like, okay, well, we can't do this. And everyone's trying to make a brand for everybody. That's not what brands are, right? Like, a brand shouldn't be for everybody. A brand, a satisfying cannabis brand should not be selling to the 90-year-old grandma who wants to use it to go to bed at night.

And me. You know what I mean? Different markets. Exactly. And everyone's trying to do that. But we're seeing specialization come in. You know, I'm working with brands right now who have these beautiful stories and ideas. So like, for instance, I'm working with a brand called Guyonica right now.

And they're addressing selling at the market that is a big problem. It's that like every edible right now is, you know, high fructose corn syrup, up gummies. Everyone likes their gummies here. And there's like all these different gummy brands. And they're all the same except for like one called censor edibles that is shaped like dicks and butts and boobs. That's like the most unique one there. So Gionica came in and they were like, well, like not everyone wants to eat gummies. Like there are more health conscious people. There are people who, you know, like they care about not just the cannabinoys that they're putting in the body, but what goes with it. So they've worked to make these, uh, they're almost like granola bars.

these natural fruit bars, you know, they do have sugar in them, but it's the natural sugar from the ingredients rather than something added in. So now they're hitting this market of people who are holistic and people who are a little bit more of a conscious consumer versus everyone who was like, oh, yeah, you just, we need to find a creative way to put 10 milligrams in a bag. Let's let's make the gummies shaped like some weeners, which, hey, great. And I love those products, censored edibles. I love you guys. No, no hate, no shade there. But I'm just saying that, like, Like, you know, becoming an interesting brand and, like, setting yourself aside isn't something that we're seeing right now. But as marketing regulations lift up and as the space gets more and more crowded, we're going to see people make these places and start to look outside of, you know, outside of the norm.

I love it. Let's dig into some behavior, Will. Like, here's an idea that, like, I was thinking about. And tell me if this is happening in your neck of the woods. And if it's not, people listening, you should get on this. You talk to Will and make this happen. But when I think of branding, I think of strategic partnerships. You know, and might there be some really creative ways for cannabis companies out there

to start making some strategic partnerships with different artists? You know, I know that maybe that bridge might be tenuous to cross, but, you know, the same way that like Grey Goose sponsors Kid Rocks Tour. I don't know if that's true, but, like, you know, there are certain companies that sponsor artists or that have a strategic partnership with them. Are you seeing anything on that strategic partnership front? Like it seems like artists and different companies would go hand and glove. Very rarely.

So right now there is a, as I said, those, those regulations really, really bite us all in the ass when it comes to marketing. And you're not allowed, legally you're not allowed to have celebrity endorsements. Ah, okay. Okay. But here's how some brands are getting away with it. They're making the celebrity, the owner. one one example which like I shouldn't really give as an example because it fumbled so we can learn from it we can learn but yeah Seth Rogan had a brand here in Canada he partnered

he partnered with Canopy and so did Snoop Dogg and they both had their own brands that that released here and because they were part owners they were able to speak to that involvement you couldn't say oh Seth Rogan loves the sweet and he sponsors this weed but you could say yeah Seth Rogan owns the company here he's part of it. Same with Snoop Dog. Snoop Dog, you know, Seth Rogan didn't learn from his fumble.

He just operates in the States. No shade Seth Rogan. Pineapple Express was a goaded movie. But, you know, he left the Canadian market and he was like, oh, but like Snoop Dogg just came back with it. And he has a new brand that the branding is super interesting. And it's one of those things where like, yeah, can you say like this is Snoop Dog's brand? Not really given the marketing thing.

but all of the imagery is like so congruent with it. And as when it comes to working with artists, like we are starting to see, uh, some brands take risks, right? I think that there's something to be said about a little bit of civil disobedience.

Like I always remind people like, hey guys, we didn't get weed legal by just waiting until the government said that we could do it. Right. It took a lot of arrests and people making points and demonstrating to get us to where we are today. So a little bit of civil disobedience is.

a little like it's okay it we should be doing it you're going to get slapped on the wrist with with some stuff but like whatever man like that's that's that's rock and roll that's weed baby um you know i i see a really prominent brand ghost drops uh ghost drops comes from legacy to legal market okay uh they're owned by uh the gentleman who founded king of the dot which is a really big uh hip hop battle rap community uh it's owned by him organic And, you know, he's a part of it. And everyone knows that. And people who, like, love the organic name go there.

But, like, because of this legacy connection that they still have, like, they're cool to smoke. And we're seeing, we're seeing them post artists that are holding their stuff. You know, I worked with, actually, I don't think I can say their name. But I worked with, I worked with a company. And they, that's what their focus was. They were trying to put cannabis into the hands of influential people. So like I saw like DeBaby smoking a legal cannabis brand from Canada. And I was like, oh, okay.

Sure. Yeah. That's cool. You know, so people are doing it. And while there might be these rules and regulations, when it comes to cannabis and cannabis people, we're really great at finding the gray zone in those rules and using them to our advantage. So yeah, we're seeing, you know, brands tied to certain celebrities.

Like we have Viola, which is Anthony Day. I'm not a sports guy. Right. He was a big, he was a big. sports guy, you know, but he has his brand. Snoop has his brand. Seth had his brand. And, you know, I think the longer that we go in the market and the more viable that

cannabis becomes as an industry and it is something that can make money rather than lose it, we're going to see more partnerships and celebrity brands coming to market in the same way that it happens with alcohol. Yeah, it's interesting. And, you know, it's also very, what's the word I'm looking for? there's a ton of opportunity when something is new because you can begin to create the future of it's like the future of what you will be thought as you know like the we sometimes you look at alcohol as like oh it's always built as like it's a good time you know you're going to have a good

time look at this party or you know sometimes cigarettes can be looked at as like someone's going outside and smoking and they're contemplating and you know a lot of writers use it and stuff like this you know with the medical container in Canada can the sponsorships could could there be cannabis coming is it sponsored like a jiu jitsu tournament like what are the rules there for as far

sponsoring something is that I mean you're not really saying like yeah we're doing this thing is that a no no in the medical world in Canada like sponsoring something like that they can and they do sponsor some events but the biggest thing is is the rule is that like that cannot be open. It needs to be in an educated environment.

If cannabis is going to be operating somewhere, it needs to be in an agated environment, which, hey, good rule. But at the same time, like, maybe we should, like,

apply this across the board for, you know what I mean? Like, there are all these, like, all ages shows and they're sponsored by Bacardi. And you're like, oh, okay.

Like, why can't Joe Blow's pot, like, be a part of this too? Like, we are seeing cannabis go in this direction. You know, companies are working along,

alongside, you know, events and venues to, to contribute there. But unfortunately, the thing that scares a lot of, a lot of these partnerships away is that that need to be agedated. And like once, once cannabis is tied to it, like all those communications need to be relatively educated. What does that mean, ageated? So it just needs to be in an environment that a minor would not see it. You know, there are all these rules about like what you can and can't do.

But the biggest thing and one of the, they. They identified, like, when they legalized cannabis, they identified, like, the three goals of it. And one was, like, to combat the legacy market. And one was to get it out of the hands of kids. It was, it was like, we can all agree adults should be able to smoke pot. Kids shouldn't. They, they, I'm sorry, if your brain isn't developed, like, don't smoke weed unless you're doing it with a doctor. And it's very carefully monitored.

So, so these age gates, you know, the way that we most often see them would be on websites, of that class, like, hey, put in your age here before you come and take a look at what's happening. And then, you know, for the physical venues, it's as much as having like a bouncer at the front door, like a lot of dispensaries here have someone who is working at the front door and they are checking IDs as people come in and making sure that they can't exist there. You know, I worked in a period where you would check IDs for everyone. Like me and you, like we don't exactly look like we're 16 anymore. You're aging better than I am. But like we don't exactly look like we're 16 anymore. But like they would still check our IDs.

Yeah. And if we didn't have them too bad, like too bad. So sad you're not getting it. And these rules have like lightened up a little bit. People are like, okay, if grandma's trying to go to the pot shop, she doesn't need her ID. But like, you know, we're making sure that kids can't get access to it. And that goes into events too. You know, if you're, if you as a cannabis company are sponsoring an event here in Canada,

you need to make sure that there's an age gate at it. So you can do these 19 plus venues and events. You can shit with nightclubs, concerts that are going to be age gated regardless. You can go ahead and do that. It's still like there are some risks. And before I would give a client any sort of green light to go ahead, I would examine, you know, the event. I would bring up the Cannabis Act, which is like bookmarked on my computer. And I would read through it again just in case because the stoners don't always have the best

memories for the rules and regulations. But no, like we're seeing it happening more and more. And hopefully through these, it will get normalized and eventually loosen up. It's interesting. I was unaware of all that. And I got to think on some level that it's competing with alcohol and cigarettes. And so that there would be an active campaign to try to keep that in its container as much as possible.

Is that accurate? You know, I can't speak steadily. on that I don't have all the information. So I can't give you a solid answer. What I will say is that a lot of alcohol and tobacco companies actually are now invested in cannabis. And they're working with it. And like, there's so regularly that I'll talk to someone and we're going through our background. I'm like, what's your background?

I'm like, ah, I worked at pot shops. And I've always been in this weed community. And I'm like, what about you? And they're like, oh, I was with Marlborough for 25 years. I was with Philip Morris. You know, they're invested in it. But at the same time, yeah, there's absolutely. behind the scene some lobbying efforts to

to have this contained. And like the biggest way that we're seeing it right now, in my opinion, is edibles. So here, you're only allowed to have 10 milligrams per package. You can't have those 100 milligram, thousand milligram shatter bars anymore

on the legal side, on the license side of things. So with that, like, you know, cannabis beverages are a huge emerging category, but they're being kneecapped by these regulations. So, you know, are people moving right now, there is a great change.org petition that is trying to get the government of Canada to re-examine these rules, to have Health Canada re-examine these rules and change the limit on potency. But absolutely, that's a part of it, because these alcohol,

alcohol primarily is what I'm going to source here. They don't want you to be able to go get a cannabis drink and be buzzed from that. They want you to go to the bar and have three or four drinks as well. You know, that's the same reason that we don't see infused beverages and foods for sale or available, you know, outside of a dispensary. And when they're in a dispensary, you know, it's, it's 10 milligrams in the package. You know, you're not really allowed to have like a bar that, yeah, they're going to serve, you know, alcohol cocktails, but maybe they're also going to serve like a cannabis cocktail with a measured standard dose because like we don't really have a standard dose yet.

Yeah, that's fascinating to think about. It's, it's, it's, I've, I've read some interesting literature too. I can't cite the source, but people can probably go online and do some, do some of their own investigating. But it seems to me that the same way our relationship with cannabis is maturing, our relationship with alcohol on some level is, is spoiling. Like I seem, maybe, maybe that's just the crew I hang out with or whatever. But, you know, why go out and get plastered and fall down drunk and be horrible the next day? So you're just like, oh, I can't even get a bed versus like it's much cooler to sit down and have like an introspective conversation with someone, you know, and spend your time listening to some music at the same concert with the same artist, but enjoying your time in a way. It's more fulfilling.

I think that that is something that is changing on the front lines. Have you noticed that sort of behavior change? Oh, yeah, yeah. And you'd see it like from the ground level in the dispensaries. There were so many people who came in and they were drinkers and then they transitioned away from drinking over to cannabis. You know, over here we have unhoused people who regularly sit outside of LCBO. That's the one place you can buy liquor in my province. You can't go to like a gas station or a convenience store.

Well, convenience stores now you can get like some beer, maybe some wine, depending of their license stuff, right? But like they used to wait outside the liquor stores. Now they're waiting outside the pot shops. And the ones who wait outside the pot shops are a lot fucking nicer than the ones outside of the liquor store. That's for sure. You know, you also see, you know, the consumers coming in.

They're saying like, hey, I'm replacing alcohol. I'm switching over from my nightcap over to something here. You know, I would never bash alcohol. I mean, humans have this long, amazing history with it. But we're also starting to become like cognizant of the issues with it. Like we're we're starting to understand like, oh, yeah. Like when someone drinks, like they're more likely to commit some crimes than the dude who goes and smokes a joint, you know. You're more likely to die from drinking than you are smoking a weed.

Thousands of people die. I want to say every day. I'm going to say every year just to be a little bit measured in my response. But, you know, thousands of people die from, you know, overconsumption of alcohol or even withdrawing of alcohol. Yeah. We don't have that happening with cannabis. So, you know, people are learning it.

And as our relationships with the substances we consume are changing and evolving, you know, I don't think we're ever going to stop drinking beer and having wine and I'm liking to go to a bar. But that being said, like the more substances open. up, we can now pair them and consume intentionally, right? Before when weed was illegal, you wanted to get a little fucked up with your buddies. All right, I guess we're going to do beer. And then you wake up the next day, you have a black eye because you got in a fist fight with someone over like what the best pizza topping was. You're like, oh, damn, I really regret that. But now you can be like, oh, cool, we're doing a cool kickback. Why don't we grab like some cannabis beverages instead

and, you know, have a good time, spin some records. Um, you know, other psychedelics too are coming more or the forefront. Like in the same way that we had, those gray market existing dispensaries for cannabis back in like 2017. We now have those with mushrooms where I'm at down the road for me. There's a mushroom store and I would pull out a bag of and see, look, it comes to this beautiful package. But like I totally, for legal reasons, I do not have that with me. I only consume legal products purchased from legal sources, of course.

Of course. But you know what I mean? Like people are getting more access to more substances and now we're learning like what the proper. pairing is, you know what I mean? You want to quiet night in? All right, smoke a joint. You want to go out and get rowdy with your fellas?

Okay, go have some beers. Like, go split a pitcher, do whatever you want to do. But yeah, no, that relationship is changing. It's evolving. I think we're going to continuously see it. I think we're going to see in the next 10 years, alcohol sales probably decline and cannabis sales continue to go up. Yeah, it's interesting.

Sometimes I like to look at our world through demographics. And, you know, there's such a large baby boomer, generation. And like that particular cohort of us ran on the drugs of alcohol, even though they had this romantic fling with psychedelics probably in the 60s. And some of them, a lot of people I know that are boomers still smoke pot, smoke cannabis or weed or whatever. But it seems to me, as the generations mature, so does the next generation's ideas about intoxication mature. You know, and I use that word because it seems to me that a lot of the create, the, the creative ideas, a lot of the business, a lot of our relationships, they run on intoxicants.

Like when you meet somebody new, it's intoxicating. When you have a relationship with alcohol, it's intoxicating. When you have a relationship with cannabis, it's intoxicating. And that which you are intoxicated by seems to be the catalyst with which you create things for. It's interesting to look at that relationship and what's coming out of it. And when I look at the older generation who fueled themselves on a lot of alcohol, you know, it's binge drinking in this particular type of alcoholic fuel, it seems like it led us into this world of linear thinking. We're like, you have to get up and go to this job every day that you hate so you can make just enough money to support your family that never sees you.

But now with these new intoxic, these new intoxicants, you're like, you're having. these epiphanies like, wait a minute, do we have to do it this way? I don't want to do that anymore. And that brings to the idea of, you know, maybe that could be one reason why there's a stigma against it. Maybe there's people in positions of authority that don't want you to run on this new substance that makes you create different things. I know that's, you know, if I put my tinfoil hat on, I can go down that road. But what do you think about the intoxicants people take and the output that comes from that. Yeah,

I think that they're definitely tied, right? I mean, like this generation, the generation of millennials are drinking less than, that any generation beforehand, right? Because we've seen the negative size of it.

We've seen, you know, dad comes home from the factory and he grabs his bottle and fucking smacks you up the head. And, uh, and we're like, oh,

damn, I don't want to be a part of that. And there's also like a conscious shift more so where people are thinking about health and wellness a different way. And, you know, well, yeah,

like consuming intoxicants and what we consume is becoming more normalized and we're getting a bit more variety too. I also say that we're normalizing not consuming for a lot of people. I know so many people that like just don't partake in alcohol. They don't partake in any sort of intoxicant. And like, God love them, man. You know, like they're cool people. As what we're saying about like creative outputs like tinfoil hack time. Like this has been this has been so we're so sure of it. like Nixon's war on drugs. Thank you. He wanted to arrest two people.

People of color and hippies. Those were the people that he hated. Why? Because they were bringing forward these radical new ideas of like, hey, like maybe like universal, like maybe if you're mentally ill or maybe if you have like a physical ailment, like you deserve to be able to live like controversial idea. And he's like, oh, oh, I can't have that.

Oh, fucking hippies. All right. Let's, you know, let's make it. let's make it all illegal. I mean, it's been proving that, you know, Nixon's war on drugs was for these nefarious purposes. That's why the term marijuana hits the public vernacular the way that it did. It's always been tied to Mexican consumption.

And the story behind the word marijuana is like so, so beautiful. It comes from this prohibition and their religious practices being needed to be hidden from the white man. And so they called it marijuana. But then Nixon, his administration, like, oh, where they call it? They're calling it, marijuana? Yeah, we can use all the anti-Mexican sentiment of the time.

We'll call it that. And then people are going to hate potheads, too, because they're going to tie them to Mexicans. Now we're in a place where, you know, racism's still a problem. I'm not saying we're better. But I'm saying, like, we're having these conversations more about how to be less problematic and how, like,

hey, no matter where you're born, you're still a fucking human being. you have these inherent rights and you deserve happiness. You deserve to be treated like a human being. You know, now that this is happening too, like, you know, the shift is happening. You know, I think the biggest shift that we've witnessed is the working from home. Like, as you said, like these nine to five jobs where you, you work, you sell your soul, you get home with barely any time to do anything.

My generation is working from home more and more. I know so many people, too, that I even identify as digital nomads. And they don't just work in a home office like I do. They travel, man. like doing it from like Tulum Mexico. They're over in Peru and they're living these like really beautiful artistic lives because like that zeitgeist of like, okay, you need to go to school, go to university, get a job right out of university, marry someone you fucking hate, work the job you fucking hate, and then you're locked in until you die. My generation is going like,

I don't want that. Yeah. I don't want that at all. Like, and we're choosing. And I think that the substances that we're consuming are helping change this, this mindset, right? Like people, people of my generation are very open about shroom consumption, about psilocybin consumption. And I find the more people I know that do psilocybin, they are more likely,

and this is just my anecdotal example, they are more likely to have those different priorities and those different values because they've seen shit that the other people can't. And they've examined aside that other people haven't examined So, you know, our relationship, that human being relationships with our intoxicants are shifting. They're ever-changing.

And, you know, as they shift and change, so will the thoughts and the cultures tied to them. I love it, man. You know, I'll take it one step further. I think on some level, like, I do a lot of psychedelics. And I've found that the way in which I interpret reality, it's almost like the earth is speaking to us through us. And it doesn't necessarily need to be psychedelics or cannabis.

It could be breathwork. But if you just take time to sit out in nature a little bit, it's the greatest teacher on the planet. Instead of going to Harvard, maybe you should go sit by a waterfall. Instead of going to Yale, maybe sit by a battered coastline and just watch what's happening there

because you can get a real education and understanding of how the world really works. You can see the relentless pounding of the waves just taking apart this giant mammoth coastline. Like, wow, that's what persistence is. If I just persist at this level, I will make my way towards something. You know, in some level, I think that the younger generation is really beginning to see the world differently than the last generation. And I think it's beautiful. I think it's poetic in so many ways.

I was a UPS job for 26 years. I met a lot of really cool people and I learned a lot of stuff there. But I really hope that Gen X is one of the very last generations that decides to live this lifestyle where you lease your life to a company for 30 or 40 years. While I made great connections to everybody listening to this, if you're younger than me, if you're at a job, look, you got to do what you've got to do. But here's what I've learned on some level is that I watch guys work 30 years, retire and then die the next year.

I watch guys work 30 years, have double shoulder surgery, and then the company be like, yeah, I don't think you did that here. You know, and then they lose everything. And then they get divorced. They start drinking. Their kids don't like them. And for me, I was like, oh, my God, this is the road I'm on. Like, I cannot, I refuse.

I refuse to do this anymore. And I see people, my age and older, starting to come to that idea as they approach this thing called retirement, whatever the hell that is. But I see the generation younger than me going like, yeah, man, I get it. I don't want that. And I hope that people begin to rally behind that. And I hope that cannabis, psychedelics, breathwork, being a digital nomad, having courage in yourself, you know, I think that all these things people can see to start living a better

life. I think that's what's emerging. And maybe that's why our relationship with cannabis or psychedelics is changing is because we've, for far too long, we have been. trapped in this world of that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You know, maybe we're looking for new meaning. And I think that that's what cannabis and psychedelics, too, is they provide a new meaning. What say you about meaning and cannabis and relationships?

I mean, it's tough. But yeah, that's quite a bit. That's quite a bit of tackle there. But no, like, as you're saying, you're talking about it, you know, it brings me back to that old, that old saying of the industrial revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race, man. Yeah. You know, as you said, like spending time in nature can be such a powerful teacher to someone.

And even pushing it further from that seeing the world, I think that, you know, one of the beautiful things that we have now that my generation is very entwined with is the internet. And because of this, while we might also be exposed to echo chambers and, you know, marketing and all these things, I think that we are exposed to a lot of different world views. You know, like they're back in the day and whatnot, you know, there would be that weird guy and he went and he traveled instead of going to university. And he was like the coolest person you'd know. He was like the old hippie. My reference for that would be I used to work at a retirement home. That was my first ever job. I would work.

And I met a lot of different people who lived these very storied lives and the coolest one of them. The nicest old man I ever met. His name was Mr. Powell, rest in peace, Mr. Powell one time. But he joined the Peace Corps right out of, right out of school. He got out of school and he joined the. Peace Corps and he traveled the world and he was able to get different perspectives from different people and because of that he was like the wisest old man I knew and his perspective about you know things like working and thing and the world around him was very different than everybody

else in that in that area but like my generation too like we're exposed to the internet we can talk to people from around the world instantly like one of my best friends in the world he lives in the UK. And I've met him one time in person. But that's my best friend. And, you know, that wouldn't be possible years and years ago. So, you know, we're exposed to people from different cultures and different backgrounds with different opinions in the same way that people who travel are. Yeah. Easier and easier. And with this, our thoughts are changing. Our priorities are changing. You know, there's there's some, there's some great things from that old mindset that I think need to be kept,

like the ability to work hard and to persevere. Like that's something that the older generation have that, you know, us damn kids today, us fucking millennials, like we don't have, uh, to the same degree,

I would say, but also too, like the, the millennial gen X, gen X, Gen Z. Yeah. Whatever that like more,

more open approach and more in tune with emotions and like going to therapy. Like everyone I know goes to therapy now. Like back, if you brought that up, like the 60s and someone like oh you go to the nut house once a week right oh crazy uh right but like no we're getting we're getting more in tune and in touch with stuff and i think with that and with these shifting priorities and world views that our relationship with substances are changing and

maybe maybe it's one changing the other maybe it's the other changing the one uh you know i i can't speak to that i can only speak to my experience and say that from my experience with psychedelics and with cannabis it has vastly altered my worldview and the way that I see and perceive those around me. And, you know, I hope that everyone can get that. And as you said, too, it's not even just in toxinians. It's things like breathwork and medication and time in nature. Like all these things that we were told, like, aren't important are like so important.

Like, we're not, I don't know if people who are listening know this, but like we're not designed to sit behind a desk for 40 hours a week. We're designed to be out in nature and be like hunting shit and to be interacting and building and solving problems. So, you know, do things that are outside of your wheelhouse and outside of your comfort zone and things that people might, might view as weird or kooky, whatever it is. Because it's going to grow you as a person and it's going to nourish who you are. And it's going to change things. It's just going to change things so much. I love it. Like, I love a lot of the language you're using. Like, you know, think of the contrast between digital and nomad.

Like you're building this bridge, a digital nomad. I know it's not your term, but I love the way you're using the language, growing and nourishing. And when you take from the planet, like if you take some mushrooms or you take some cannabis,

it's interesting that it acts like a magnet and it tries to pull you outside. It's like you're becoming part of the planet when you ingested and you're like drawn to it. You know, one of the best things to do for people that may not know is if you smoke some cannabis, you take some mushrooms,

go to the ocean. and like just be immersed back into the ocean on some level. And it's it's fascinating to think about what you consume pulls you towards it in some way. It's fascinating to think about. And as I'm talking about that, it makes me think of education. Here's another avenue we can explore that we haven't touched on yet is this world of cannabis, cannabis education and maybe medical devices that are working with cannabis. Here's another avenue that we could touch on. And I know a lot of people that are working with Canada or the UK and because regulations are coming out, they're spending a lot of time coming up with cannabis education.

Maybe you could speak to that a little bit. Like, what does that market look like? It's interesting, actually. I come from a bit of a background in cannabis education. I used to train teams and dispensaries. And I have helped different, which will remain unnamed organizations, develop training because I'm about to say some shit. I hear you. But I developed these training modules for people.

And I think that a certain level of cannabis education and training should be standard. Should be should be it. There should be a university course right now in in cannabis. They're selling like plant science. Yep. Whatever we want to, whatever we want to call it. There should there should be something for that for people to specialize in the same way that we don't just have regular engineers. We have aerospace engineers.

We have, you know, rocket engineers. Like, you know, we should be able to specialize. If you are really into biology and you're a nerd for the plant like me, like go ahead and learn and learn about cannabis. There should be a program for you. What I will say is that there's a lot of everyone's trying to be first to market, right? Like everyone wants to be the premier cannabis education. I have done countless cannabis education courses.

I am a twice certified cannabis small. And with this experience, what I'll say is that like there's no standard for it. Anyone. Any of you listening right now could go on like courses. Sarah and make a cannabis training course and say that you're going to give someone a certification. But like, and I'll push this further in one minute. Like, what does that certification mean? Like, there's no governing board over it.

There's no like pot council who are going to be like, yes, this is the right one. So everyone's doing it right now. They're selling knowledge that like realistically, you can just access on the internet. That's where they accessed it. Go find it. Just go read.

You don't need a fancy diploma, a fancy certificate saying that you are. whatever. I have a certificate that says I'm a master certified grower. I can't grow weed for the life of me, no matter how many times I try. I might have that science knowledge behind it. I can't grow it myself. It just doesn't work for me. But my boss, he doesn't have that same background in education, but he put his time in and he can grow some of the best weed. It was, we had a Thanksgiving dinner as a team recently. And the centerpiece was a, was a cannabis plant that he had grown and it was beautiful. It was like better than any centerpiece I've ever seen. But,

you know, pushing it further, you know, this isn't just me shitting on, on cannabis education courses and saying like that they're just trying to take your money. Some are. Some are, absolutely. But like, so are, so are universities, right? Like, you don't need, you can go and learn anything. We have the internet now, you guys. Like, you can, all of human information is, is on this accessible point where you can go and you can learn and you can go and read up. The need for certification, you might have it. Maybe your job requires it like a university degree, a college diploma. And, you know, there are a lot of courses in university and college that are really, really helpful. But there are a lot of them. What do they do, man? Like a philosophy major. I love

philosophy majors. I know a lot of them. But we could also just smoke weed and read can't by ourselves. We don't need a governing body, someone to be like, oh, yes, you think about philosophy. in a way that deserves a diploma versus you. Sorry, buddy, try again next year. That'll be another $40,000, please. You know, education is needed. It is needed for plant science. We need more research in cannabis.

But at the same time, the current courses that I see existing are not worth anyone's time. They're not worth your time. They're not worth your money because that at the end of the day is what they're trying to get. They're a business at the end of the day. They're not government funded, research focused. They're people trying to make money and carve out their own niche in the industry and be known as like the prince of pot. And name that every stoner has like given himself in the industry at a certain point. Right.

Like go ahead, learn. Go get knowledge. Go talk to people with different worldviews than you. Go see, you know, learn about cannabis from going and seeing fields and people who cultivate it and talk to them there. Go on the internet and read like the science behind it. But like, don't feel the need to chase a fancy certification. I should know. I have three of them and they have done nothing for my career.

If anything, they have slowed me down because then I got into a mindset that other people had taught me rather than thinking for myself and using the research to guide me in my opinions forward. It's fascinating to think about it. On some level, I think it echoes back to an earlier part of our conversation where certifications, I'll say it this way. When the instrument becomes an institution, that's when the corruption sets it. So if we look at cannabis as an instrument, and all of a sudden there's an institution behind it, a governing body, okay, well, now it no longer is sharp, no longer works, because now there's a controlled set of ideas around it. This is the right way to do it.

Well, who gets to say that? That's like saying the greater good. You know, it's these ideas that we contain everything in. And like you said, I do think there's a, clearly there's a, there's room for education. Clearly that there's room for, you know, particular soil samples and particular methods of growing. And maybe there's, there is room for education. But certification is a very tricky thing, you know, it's a very, especially when

you start getting a lot of money behind it, right? Because money tends to, tends to corrupt things in strange ways. you know, what about, here's another one I've been thinking about. What about medical devices? Are you aware of any sort of medical devices that are out there in the world of cannabis? Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of like medical side do. I mean, I can more so speak to the recreational. Over here in Canada, we only have one government-approved medical device.

And it's something that a lot of people might recognize the volcano, the Storzibicle volcano, is the only like health Canada approved medical device for consuming Canada. cannabis. And I think that like when it comes down to to medical devices, it's, it's really the shift from, from combustion into the other ways, right? People are using things like nano emulsification to create drinks that bind to the receptors a lot better. It can be absorbed under your tongue sublingually rather than waiting and going through the, I believe it's the liver like an edible would. So, you know, we're seeing a lot of innovation happen. I work with one company who will remain nameless for now just in case they don't want me talking about them.

But they make like the coolest infusions ever. Like I have over in my kitchen a bottle and it's 100 milligrams in the bottle and you can pour out and it perfectly doses you 10 milligrams every single time. And this can be taken like a shot. I don't think I, you know, people mix it in with drinks too. That's what I've been using it for. I've been making cannabis cocktails. I've been jokingly making with my friends weed lean. That's what we do.

We put it in some sprite and put like the two jolly ranchers in it. And now instead of consuming like an opioid drink, it's a little bit of THC and this is beautiful, beautiful thing. So yeah, we are seeing medical science get pushed forward a little bit in regards to cannabis. But I will say recreational has actually slowed down the process on medical because beforehand, that's why all these weed companies got into it. They did medical because that's the only way they could legally sell cannabis. And now that it's recreational, they don't need to give a fuck. Why would they go and target like the small group of people who are medical when instead they could target everybody and, you know, by proxy also the people who consume medically from a dispensary? So, you know, people are slowing down and that that focus on medical has really, really shifted away.

And it's a really sad thing to see because patients deserve, deserve choice and proper access and proper information. to be able to consume their plant medicines, but we're not seeing that as much. I thought when cannabis would be legalized, we'd see a boom of it. But in fact, it's gone the other way. Yeah, it's interesting. When you look at for-profit cannabis companies, they all seem to be losing market share on some level. What do you think? Maybe you could speak to the idea of, because you've been around in a long time.

And some people say that it's losing ground, like it's losing the luster that it had. What do you think about the commercialization of cannabis and what it's done to the industry? Oh, good question. I hate it. I hate it. But then again, my online name that I go by is hippie. I have, you know, I got called to that in dispensaries. That was my nickname working there, the name that I would operate under because it wasn't legal what I was doing.

So I have that old school hippie mentality with it. I think the commercialization is the bastardization of cannabis. I think that cannabis has this really beautiful. rich history of being for the outsiders, you know, whether that is like in San Francisco being used to treat people who are dying of AIDS and to give them a little bit of comfort. It was it was the outsiders thing, you know, I believe there was some some cannabis ties to stonewall. I don't want to, I don't want to get into that too much. I don't want to speak to that and come off like an idiot. But you know, it was this beautiful thing for the outsiders to have.

And then the way that the industry went is it pushed it into this rapid commercialization of it, where the people who had the industry on their back for years and took care of people and made sure that people had access to good, clean, reliable cannabis, they were pushed out of it, right? Like the company that I worked for was huge back in the day. You could find them in nearly every city. There was multiple in every city. You know, I think in Ottawa, we had like three or four of them and then competitors on top of that. I think they have one legalized cannabis store right now.

Those growers who used to provide really, really great medicines for people, well, they don't have the access to funds that big tobacco and big liquor has to go and get ACMPR certified and to build these multi-million dollar facilities. And then at the same time, everyone jumped in, all these big companies jumped into cannabis and we're referring to it as a green rush, which makes me want to vomit. That's so disgusting. But, you know, we had former cops. So a lot of these companies are owned by former police officers or have former former RCMP guys on their board.

And I'm not saying they're all bad, but also ACAB. They were part of the system that was criminalizing this for a long time, putting people in jail for just trying to feed their families off of cannabis. And now they're trying to make millions and millions of dollars off of it. And it's not happening because they are so disconnected, just disconnected from the. consumer. A popular phrase that I've heard from going to all these different cannabis exos and speaking at them is, well, I don't personally consume cannabis, but, and then they give it an explanation on cannabis. And while I don't think you need to be an active regular consumer, you don't need to be a stoner like me to be able to deserve a place in the industry, if you don't smoke it,

you have no idea what you're talking about. You are so disconnected from it. And that's why, you know, all these companies that got millions and millions of dollars of investment. So their stock prices were like like $20 a share. I own some cannabis stocks, but I do it as a meme because they're 10 cents. Right. Like cannabis stocks are like 10 cents. You can go own like a good chunk of a cannabis company for less money than like a Starbucks coffee these days. And that comes from these companies being disconnected, not understanding what people want and also not listening to feedback.

I'm really fortunate that I work with companies that are listening to the feedback that I provide and the feedback that my team goes and collects out in the field and makes calls based off of that. That being said, not everyone does it. They have this like old school boomer mentality. Nope, this is the way it's going to be. They're going to want it. Of course people are going to want to buy my overpriced mids. Like the thing that they forget too is they're still competing against legacy. Legacy didn't go away.

I have two stores right. I have two legal stores right by me and I have two legacy stores right. I mean, for legal reasons, I go, I shop at the licensed stores, but sure. The good weed exists and only one. I'm telling that, or no, they exist at both. There's a lot of good people on the market. Sorry, I'm being silly. There's a lot of great people on the market and a lot of great people making great cannabis,

but there is equal amount of bad actors and people who are just in it for the money. And if you're just in it for the money, I mean, look at the space right now. There's no money to be had. If you're getting into cannabis now, you better be doing it because you fucking love it because you're passionate about it. And same thing. If you have that passion, you know, speaking to what we said earlier about storytelling, that's going to come off to consumers. And that's going to come off in your brand. And you're going to be better received than the cop weed.

I'll tell you that much. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, in some ways, I feel like there's a new mythology around cannabis being born. and someone who was wise could harness that. Because earlier in the conversation, we talked about the power of buying a new string came from a story, like, oh, yeah, this is so-and-so, or this is this kind. And now it seems like there's an absence of a story. But nature abhor is a vacuum.

So a new story is rushing in. On some level, being able to tell the new mythology or create, as you go along could open up. And maybe that's why there's so many, you know, I got tons of friends that slaying on the side. And like, they're just as good as a dispatcher. You're not even better because it's the guy that grew it in his house. You know what I mean?

And it's like, oh, yeah, I know this guy. And you know what? I know his uncle and his uncle's been growing ever since he was a kid. And this guy, in some ways there's like a lineage there. You know, it harkens back to the ways in which things used to be grown. But now you can have that lineage and you can have the turp profile. You could send that into like a, you know, the Cult of Our Cup with Dominozio's gig.

And you know, you can figure out, you can have the best of both worlds. What do you, and then maybe this gets back to branding, what do you see emerging or do you see potential for a new story to be told about Canis? And what are you doing to harness that? Yeah, I think, I think a new story needs to be told right now. A big, a big issue that we have right now facing the Canadian industry is inflated THC values. Okay. So, so this has been a huge issue for a long time of, and this is,

And this happens because consumers have been cut off. Like how do you buy weed, right? Like you sniff it, right? Like you sniff it and you look at it. And maybe if you know the guy well enough, you got to touch the bud and really get a get this like full on experience with it. And that's how you chop by what smells the best. Yeah. Right now, because of cannabis packaging, you know, I have.

So like this is how a cart comes now, right? Like it's locked off from you. You can't see it. You can't look at it. You have no idea what you're getting. So what do people gravitate towards? They gravitate towards that THC label. Yep.

That automatic readout right there. And because of this, we have seen a race to the bottom occur in the cannabis industry where everybody doesn't care about producing great, beautiful cannabis in the same way that we used to. They're worried about THC values. So they're shopping. Not everybody, but a lot of brands are shopping around to different testing facilities that will inflate their test results. or they'll work to inflate their test results themselves by like all all that keef that like fell off the flower in in the trimming process they're for their lab samples are just rolling it in that keef and they're making sure it's covered so we're getting inflated THC labels of like 35% THC I've seen as high as 39% THC which from a genetic standpoint is pretty well impossible like that shit would kind of be like that shit would be crystalline it would look more like cracker

than cannabis at that point if it's 40% THC. So we're seeing this race at the bottom occur where everyone is just worried about THC because consumers have been cut off from the plant. So they're not able to shop in the way that they should be shopping. They can't shop by smell and aroma and by the vibe that they want. So they break it down to numbers. And it's like the cannabis equivalent of like going in and be like, I want a nice bottle of wine.

What has the highest alcohol percentage? Well, you're leaving with a bottle of Everclear. That's what you're leaving with. So there's room right now for cannabis brands to really be telling great stories. And I'm looking forward to a cannabis brand emerging and not giving a fuck about it. And saying, you know what? Instead of spending all this money shopping around to a lab that's going to say that we have the strongest stuff on the market, instead I'm going to put my marketing budget into making sure that every store has a display sample.

Like cannabis brands, fucking steal this from me, okay? Steal this from me right now. You don't need to pay me for this. Take your big beautiful buds that you're like, wow, I wish someone could see it. And case it in resin to make sure it lasts forever. And it doesn't go brown in a sensory jar and a dispensary. Because once cannabis has been exposed to like oxygen and light for a certain amount of period, it degrades. It doesn't look as good.

Do that. Invest in scratch and stiff stickers with that. So that way you can show someone the bud and be like, here is the bud that you're going to buy. This is what it looks like. It's beautiful, right? Perfect. Smell this. This is, you know, the terpenes.

extracted from it and this is the smell and kind of the flavors that you're going to get off of it because right now it's a race to the bottom because of THC so we need people to come in and find creative ways to market their flour we need to find people that don't give a shit and are able to communicate that hey good weed isn't a percentage that's never been what it's about and that should never be what it's about so like here's here's our cannabis here's our story behind it here's why we believe in our product here's who it's for And here's why it matters. I love it.

I'll give you, I'll give the cannabis industry one too. So someone out there take this idea. Create a strain that nobody can have. Like, this is a strain, but you have to read, you have to read this book before you can get it. And you could sell the book right there, like Carl Jung's Red Book or a philosophy book, since we're talking about philosophy. Why not have a strain of weed that, that, that, you could sell the book. corresponds to personality types. You know, like, why not, you have to read this book before you can have this

strain. No one can get it, but you have to read this book. You know, and then all of a sudden, people are like, why don't I read a stupid book to do it? Well, because if you want to understand what this does, you have to read this. Another way, and I think that's something that goes with that too is the idea of a personality test. We don't thoroughly understand how turpines affect different people. Like, we understand these different profiles, have different attributes.

But how do you measure that against someone's individual? individual DNA code. It's very difficult to measure all those variables. But what you could do is you can have people take a personality test, like the Briggs Myers or the disc, and then you can begin to match up those personality types with terpen profiles. And I think that now you're looking at something that doesn't have to do with THC content. You're getting away from these big boomer brands that want to put a big number on there. Like it's a sunscreen number, like SPF 50. You know, you're just making stuff up, man. Have something real. behind it. Oh, you're a, you're an IFNJ. Chances are you're going to like this particular Turpene profile. And here's why we think that. You know, now you have something tangible that you can measure against. And I think that that is the new way that stories evolve is like, wow, this is my character profile. Here is this personality test. Here is this thing I like. Well, I'm also that personality. And I also like that. Now you have this whole new avenue of creating your tying together behavior,

turpene profiles, and in the same way, you're creating a community of like-minded people. Like now you've got a whole community around it, instead of it just being, you know, it harkens back to the idea of a boutique and a product that comes with that boutique

instead of just some mass selling of THC. But I think that we've only begun to scratch the surface of storytelling, imagination, and what is possible in the cannabis industry. I think people like you and some of the real, thought leaders out there. My friend Alex would hate that I use the word thought leaders, but I'm sorry

Alex, I'm using the word. I can't think of anything else, Alex. So, but yeah, some of the thought leaders out there can really begin to create this new story. What do you think about personality tests and archetypes and cannabis being put together as a system? I think it's a very interesting idea. I think that it's something that like should be explored from a retail perspective as someone who's in the store. you're going to have a hard time getting people to do that man you're going to have a hard time

but i still think that that could be you know like oversimplify it right like that's what we need to do for a lot of these consumers right you even say the name turpine you say it turpine do like a lot of consumers and they're like what now what's that fancy tancent word you slanging at me boy i'm trying to get high and you're like yeah i know darrell i know you're just trying to get high but like i'm trying to help you have this experience right now i think that Yeah, taking that and making cannabis and choosing cultivars and and terpenoid profiles and cannabinoid profiles that match maybe experiences or how you want to feel might be a really smart way to go about it in the future. I think like a, and I think there's one cannabis company that's doing it right now. I think color does.

But they have color, color coordinated cannabis. They have every cultivar has its own color. and it stands out and a lot of a lot of like old school color theory just fun marketing stuff goes yeah right you choose it based on the color you see so like they have this really beautiful setiva called pedro sweet sativa and i believe it's in like a bright green container like this like a bright green bag so it stands out and it pops out and it's fun and then they have uh it's black sugar rose which is in a uh a darker like a maroon red one it has that more like calm vibe for it. I think too, though, that as you said, with personality types, that could be a really

great, like, culture piece that a brand could use to differentiate themselves. Like, put that on your website. Like, maybe don't have like a full on, like, don't make them like Myers-Brigg or whatever like that. But maybe like BuzzFeed it. You know what I mean? Like make a, like, choose what looks best to you. Choose what book looks most interesting to you. All of these things to get an idea of that consumer that is going to be consuming the product and then guiding them to a product that you think that they would really honestly enjoy. I mean, I've been, I've been workshopping my own brand for better part of two years now. I think I've been working on it for like three years like off and on, touch and go. I'm debating who I want to to sell it to right now because

I think the execution is going to be everything with it. But it's a brand that's that pushes people away and it's like no no no no this isn't for everyone this is I love it I love this person this is for this kind of person who's doing this kind of thing and then there's a little bit of like specialization and personalization in there but I think the problem right now and the one that we see is everyone's trying to make a brand that resonates with everybody and when you try to resonate with everybody you matter to nobody yes that's well said yeah it's I guess it comes back to that idea of people would rather have 1% of a thousand people or 1% of 100 people than 100% of one person. From a marketing standpoint or from a profit standpoint, I get it.

But I don't, if the name of the game is money, then it's not health. It's not becoming better. It's not moving forward. It's just money. And it's just extraction. And it doesn't, like, we can look at the world as a whole and realize that extraction on a mass scale just leads to more extraction. Like there has to be something behind it that moves it.

You know what? When I think back to wonderful marketing and I think back to the idea of the first Apple computer at the Super Bowl when they showed all these IBM guys like marching off a cliff like Lemmings, you know, I'm like here's this one guy that's like, I'm not going to sit in an office. Like how do you, how do you stand out from everybody else? Well, you have to be willing to piss people off. You have to be willing to turn your back on the crowd if you want to be the conductor. And that's where courage comes in and authenticity comes in.

And so much of these things that we're talking about instill that. And maybe that's why on some level, they're, maybe, like you said, maybe they're not for everybody. Maybe this is something that is best in a niche circle or sometimes good advice is kept to a handful of people because they know how to use it or they know how to wield it. Or even if you look at indigenous cultures, like you have to reach a certain age before you're even able to serve medicine. And you have to study behind somebody for a long time before you understand what's really happening out there. And when you give it to the masses, it sort of cheapens it a little bit. What do you think? Yeah, no, I think that's definitely it.

It's you need to find some specialization. You need to find, for better, lack of words, find your tribe, right? Like find the people who are going to resonate with your brand and appeal to them. I think a really beautiful example that we can take from, I'll say the rolling paper industry. say the cannabis industry, it might get these guys in trouble. But like raw. Like the story of raw is really beautiful. And I look to Josh Kesselman from that as like one of the smartest, like best marketers

of our time because he had this idea for a brand that he chased. And his idea was an all natural rolling paper. So just I'll tell everyone he has so many interviews online like maybe pause this. If you're listening to it after the fact, go listen to it. But if you're here with us live, I'll just reiterate it. in not as many floral words. He had the idea. He used to sell rolling papers.

He used to work in, um, he used to work in like head shops. He had his own thing of head shops in, I think it was Gainesville, Florida or, or Arizona. It was one of the two. I think it was Florida though.

Um, and because of this, he would order in rolling papers from all around the world for different people. And he would get really excited from that. Uh, because he had, he had such a passion for rolling paper. So he was already following his passion, which is like the first important thing.

But then one day he had a customer say, hey, there's this beautiful all natural rolling paper. I really want. Can you get it? And he got excited because he's like, whoa. Okay, yeah, I want an all natural rolling paper. And then he ordered it in and he was all excited. And it was bleached white. It was this white sheet of paper looking just like a zigzag.

And he was like, that's like that's not what natural is. Like, and you know, there's a. reason that rolling papers were white. It comes from back of the day of the fact that people used to smoke newspaper. Like that's how they would, there was original rolling papers. So the companies would come out and have a bleached white paper to be like, look, it's hygienic. It's, it's clean. There's no ink. You're not smoking heavy metals on it. So like it made sense then. But like as we move into a more and more natural thing, he was like, no, like that's not natural. That's not what we need. So he, you know, he went and he invested in himself and he got an order of it because he would go to.

all these big rolling paper companies and be like, hey, I want to do this natural rolling paper. You know, it'll look like this. It's unbleached. It's, oh, now I have my rolling paper. I'll screw up. I'll fold that back up later. But he's like, it's unbleached. It's beautiful.

It has a natural gum line. You know, like this is really natural. And they would joke to him and they would say, man, no one wants to smoke a paper bag. You kidding me? Like no one wants to. But he had this image in his mind of like, I think he said it was like a beautiful hippie girl. Smoky. He's like, I want to make the thing for her, for the, you know, the white girl with long dreads with like seashells gone into it.

And her dad might be like a big finance guy, but like she doesn't care. She's not, she's not a part of that. So he made the paper for those people. He made it for not for everybody. Yeah. And he started selling it. And it got passed around in the way that cannabis used to in cannabis products used to be able to be talked about. It not from marketing campaigns, not from, you know, ads.

on porn sites, which we're seeing more and more. But from circles, people would smoke together and someone would pull out a pack of raws and someone would be like, yo, what is that? Yeah. And they'd smoke it themselves. They'd have an experience with it. And they'd ask about it. So he made something that wasn't for everybody.

And now it's like arguably the biggest rolling paper company in the world. Like this is the one I see everybody smoke it. I see it in every dispensary. It's always handed out. Anytime someone offers me a joint, it is often enrolled in one of those unless they have like a weird preference. Maybe they want a flavored paper, whatever. So, you know, he went and he targeted a specific niche and then it became for everybody because of just the quality of the product and the vision behind the product. And maybe, maybe you weren't the hippie person with the long dreads

going down or the long unkept hair, but you'd see them smoking and you're like, oh, yeah, I want to be a part of that. That looks cool. I have my corporate nine to five, but maybe that's how I really feel. Right. So he was able to make this brand that resonated with a certain group of people and then resonated outside of that just based on quality. Cannabis were seeing the opposite happen a lot of time. People are trying to make something that resonates with everybody. And because of that, maybe some niche circles like it, but other than that, it's not growing. I love it. And I think on some level, it speaks to the idea of how easy it should be right now.

And I think it was von Klauschwitz who said that, you know, everything in war, everything in war is easy. The only problem is in war, even the easy things are incredibly difficult. What I mean by that is that when the market's saturated by normality, when the market is saturated by average, all it really takes is for someone to come in and see that diamond in the rough, whether it's the girl that has seashells or flowers in her hair or. and yeah I'm targeting that but in targeting that you're targeting this giant thing of beauty that you see that other people see but they don't really know that they want it now all of a sudden the people that want those they're buying that girl's image they're buying that circle

they're buying an hour of coolness they're buying the trip to the dead show without actually going to it they're getting some of that that story into them it's contagious in a way and I do think that I think when it comes to creating anything. You know, a great story about this too is there used to be a company

called Airwalk. And I remember coming up, like, did all the cool skaters had airwarks shoes, but there was two kinds of airwarks. There was like the cool airwarks. You could only get it like the surf shops and like some of the pro skaters were.

And then there was the airwarks that you could get like it seared or something like that. But everybody knew, you know, because it was a cool version and a not cool version. But that cool factor is something that marketing is drawn on forever. And it's just a matter of creating that cool fact. That cool factor is always out there.

It's just a matter of tying your product to that cool factor and then giving it to an audience. But if you give it to too big of an audience, it's not cool anymore. What do you is that, what do you think about the cool factor in that aspect? But that sounds like the raw thing in some ways. Is that similar? Yeah, I think it's similar. As I love to say to people, I'm like, cannabis isn't cool anymore when you get into a fully federal legal thing because it becomes for everybody, right? Like it's no longer something for the outsiders.

But like, that's okay too. and there's allowed to be cool things in it. You're allowed to have that. And there always is going to be that to exist. So like right now, like there are cannabis companies in Canada that like have that cool factor. Ghost drops is the biggest one. Man, they're cool as hell. I buy their stuff because I want to, I'm not a rapper.

I don't, I mean, I used to do a little bit of music, but I'm not anywhere like on that level. So, you know, I buy that because I'm like, I'm smoking the rappers weed right now. That's really cool. right um and i and i and i connect with that and as you said it's it's buying that experience for the hour um you know it's the same reason that like you see like these really cool like kind of niche coffee shops yeah and then dudes and suits are going on there because they're holding on to that little part of them right they're holding on to that yeah i'm going to go buy it from the cool little place i'm not going to starbucks or you have people like me who are going to starbucks i'm like oh look at me

i'm a big business yeah i existed this world now So yeah, like the cannabis cool factor is, is dying, is nearly dead. But like there are going to be brands that, that target on that. There are going to be brands that carve it out for themselves. You know, ghost drops is one great one. Another great brand who doesn't make quote unquote weed for everybody. Ministry of Sativa. I did an article about them forever ago.

And they were like, we're just growing sativa. Fucking Indica. Fucking Indica dominant hybrid. We are growing setivas. We are hunting for land race because we're going to be. for the Sativa people. It's okay to not like Sativa dominant products, but then this isn't for you.

And because of that, the people who love Sativa love their products. And I see it get adopted, you know, very often. So yeah, people, you know, just don't, don't worry about what other people are doing. Like have, have an image in your head, chase that image and find that, like, bit of, bit of story that is authentic to you, because if you do that, people are going to resonate with it. They might not be a rapper, but they love rap music and they kind of want to feel like one for a little bit, you know? Yeah. Authenticity is contagious, especially in a world where in a world of sameness, authenticity is contagious. And I think that that is a roadmap for people

to follow. I like it. And it's, it's, there's something to be said about it. It seems like there's so much homogenization that's constantly trying to happen. There's McDonald's on every corner. You go to anywhere in the world to get a same cheeseburger. And that's cool. You go to a Starbucks and get the same kind of coffee. And that's cool. Consistency is awesome. But there's something to be said about that edge, that little bit of dangerousness.

Like, wow, this person's going against the grain right here. This is different, you know, and you get to be part of that difference. You know, I like that part. I really think that that's industry. Do you think that what do you think about transparency in the cannabis industry? Is that something that has become greater, normalcy or is that something that's kind of been shrouded? It's something that's shrouded now.

I mean, it's always been a certain level of shrouded, right? Because you're buying a legacy market and people are protecting their sources. But that came from a protection standpoint, right? That's a, hey man, you could be a narc and this is a like a family grower and we don't want them to like

lose their family farm. Now it comes from like that corporate side of it, right? I'm just like, oh, they don't need to know. They don't need to know that. And like fair enough. you know, no one, no one needs to know everything, but like, there's shrouding of it. And like, one of the biggest things is like companies changing the names of their products,

which is fair. If you, you know, every, every grow of a cultivar is going to be a little bit different. Right. But, you know, we have like so many wedding cakes on market right now. And then people are going ahead and they're like changing the name a little bit to stand down. But that's not what that is anymore. Right.

It's like taking a Pinot Grigio and calling it, uh, the Pinot best. Grigio of all time ever. You're like, okay, that's like I can see kind of baseline what that is, but like that's not it. Like people are hiding a lot of information. And they shouldn't be like they should be opening transparent and find people who resonate with that. And I'm fortunate in that my company, we are choosy about who we work with.

We're now at that point where like we have said no to people because they didn't fit what we wanted to do and the goals that we have in the industry for marketing. we find those people who are really trying to do great things. And hey, regardless of anyone here listening, feel free to hit me up, we can have a conversation, right? But, you know, that being said, you know, we find those people that resonate with it and that understand kind of where the industry is now and how to guide it to where we want to get it. Right. And a big thing with that is transparency. Like with all of the brands that I work with, you better be ready to show me a COA.

If I have a group of people going into dispensaries and talking about how your flower is like over 30%, cool. I want a C-O-A to back that up. Yeah. And I want that to be from a reputable lab or it's not even worth me having. If it's from like Joe Blow's basement, uh, basement pharma, it's not going to help or, you know, there's, there's some names in the industry that everyone kind of knows. They're like, oh, yeah, those don't trust those COAs. Like those are inflated. Um, right?

So like, I'm like, hey, man, got to have those C-OAs ready because people are going to want it. you're selling something over 30% THC, which isn't impossible, especially with the right cultivar and the right growers and the right conditions. Like you can do it, but it's really tough and you better be ready to prove that on the market. Because consumers are are getting more discerning. They're sick of the bullshit. They've went and they've got a 35% THC product and they're like,

this hits like the 18% I got. But that being said, THC isn't everything. There's other cannabinoids. There's other substances that you are, breathing in. There's turpines. There's, you know, everything guides it. So, you know, people, there needs to be new transparency, a certain level in the industry. You don't need to volunteer every bit of information, but if you're touting your product is this, you better

be ready to back it up. Yeah, it's interesting. There's a lot of, there's a lot of people exploring the, I might, sometimes I say this wrong, but the cannabinoid system, like the cannabinoid, you know, you start to hear a lot of people talking about it. But it seems, really complex to me. It seems like there's so many variables in there and how do we measure that? What? But then again, I read a lot of research. You'll read some papers. You'll talk to some people that

you know, you really respect and you understand that, wow, this is, you know, ananamide is lighting up this neurotransmitter system and it's interesting to think about all the work that's around that. What's your take on on that whole sort of emergence of the cannabinoid system and how it might affect the industry going forward? Yeah, like the focus on the ECS system right now is

something really great and I think that, you know, it should be talked about. Yeah. Is it the way that I want to sell cannabis personally? No, I think, I think the way to sell cannabis and to really resonate and to do well is to bring it back to the old school because that's what people want, man. People, people want, I hate to say it, but people want to go into a dispensary and buy weed from a guy that looks like me who's like covered in tattoos, looks like it has a bit of a bad attitude.

Right. Right. Like people kind of want that experience. They don't want, like, I've seen, I've seen, I've gone to stores, man. and people are in like full on suit and ties. I'm like, what the fuck? You're going to narc on me, man. I know it's legal, but you're a narc.

Like if I've ever seen one. You know, like people want that experience. And I think that I personally think that it should be brought back to the old way. Yeah, you should be talking about the cannabinoids that you want to do. And there should be all your products should be tested, you know, so you should understand what is in that product before you sell it. But, you know, like sell it based off the beauty factor. Sell it off of how rich those buds are and how they smell and how frown. and how fresh it is.

That's the way that I want to see the industry grow. Speaking about the way the industry is and how it will realistically grow, I think, yeah, like conversations about the ECS system like need to be had. And like the sad thing is that it goes down to the budtenders to do it because brands are going ahead and they're labeling, oh, this is a CBG product. This one has CBN. This has CBD, you know, like they're labeling it with that. And now these like underpays.

retail workers are the one that have to explain complex biology to people like twice their age. So like there needs that, you know, we're talking a little bit about education. There needs to be more education in the industry, not only for the people who are working in it, but for the people who are consuming it. Like we need to just normalize some conversations about it and be like, hey, man, like, here's what it is. And will every consumer take part in that? No, right?

Like there's always people that go into the liquor store. And they just grab like whatever looks good off the shelf first. Yeah, absolutely. But then there are also those people that go in there and they want to talk about the typicity of the wine. And then I'll talk about the region that it was grown in and where it was produced. And we should be ready to have those conversations and to nurture those conversations in a retail environment.

But I think the biggest thing that needs to happen there is that weed workers, you guys need to, we all need to unionize. We need to unionize. We need to demand better pay. And yes, some stores are going to fall to the wayside. But at the same time right now, unfortunately, we're at a point where people are selling their labor very cheap. You know, when I worked at a dispensary right at the start of the market,

I was making $20 to $25 an hour. That's how much I was making. Then I moved on to salary. But then, you know, I've seen that average wage go down more and more to where now if you work at a dispensary, you're earning around minimum wage here in Canada. And that being said, you know, there's an old expression. And I love to take minimum wage, minimum effort, man. Right?

If someone's earning minimum wage and you can't expect them to have the knowledge of an expert. You can't have an expert making beginner wage. That's just not how capitalism is supposed to work. I don't exactly love the system, but it's the one that we're stuck operating under. So let's like, let's be consistent with how we apply it, right? But there's a race to the bottom happening with prices, with THC labels going up. and with how underpaid can these workers be? And it's really, really sad to see because that's, man, I, as I said, I'm, I'm from

legacy. I used to go into stores every day and risk my freedom. That's what it was because I believed in it. When I called my old man, the same guy who was going to call the cops on me for a P5 as a teenager, it was still illegal. I had just been let go from a job. I was a manager at a candy store. And I went into my dispensary when I was handing out resumes because I was like, I need to

fucking joint for this walk home. I just lost my job and this sucks. And I talked to my now amazing friend and my, my former regular bartender brett. And he said, Hey, man, do you want to work here? I was like,

yeah, let me, let me just, and I lied. I had my resume with me. I was like, let me go get it. I went out to decide to call my old man because I was like,

oh, he's going to fucking kill me if I do this. I'm going to bring it by him anyways, right? So I called him and I said, hey, man, I think I found a new job. And he's like, where is it? And I said,

it's at a dispensary. And he paused and he said, do you believe in what you're doing? And that's the first time that old man had ever asked me my opinion on anything. He's a stubborn bastard. God love him. And I said, yeah, I do. And he said, then I'll support you fullheartedly. And then I went into there. And I was risking my freedom every single day.

And it wasn't for for workers to get exploited and for our industry to be simplifies and bastardized and turned into a consumer packaged goods, man. I did it because this is an amazing plant. This is produce that if handled correctly, not only can change the people who are consuming it and give them these amazing experiences, but can also make you a lot of money. That's what the corporate people listening to here want to know. They want to know that it's going to make money. And you can do that with authenticity,

with honesty, transparency, with showing and just growing good products. You can do it. It's tough. It's a crowded market, but guess what? If you're embodying all those values and you're in cannabis because you love it, you already have a leg up on the competition. Yeah, that's well said. And I think that that translates to life.

If you're doing something you love and you're passionate about, you're ahead of the game. It takes a lot of courage to, it takes a lot of courage to see, you know what? I love this thing and I'm going to do it regardless of the consequences. And I believe in it. Maybe you got a set of time. I'm going to do it for a year and see what happens. I'm going to reeval.

I'm going to do it for six months. But to anybody listening to this that I would encourage you that find something you love to do and work towards it. Take some baby step towards it. And I think that your relationships will get better. The stories you tell yourself will get better. The way you model reality will get better, whether it's in cannabis or whether it's being a mechanic. If there's something you love in life, work towards it and your world will get better, man.

And that's how you, that's how you become an expert, I think, in something is by finding your passion and finding something you love and playing with it, toying with it, experimenting with it. You know, I'm hopeful that that's the way we move forward. But yeah, I love to hear that it's possible and to understand the late. Sometimes you've got to understand where you came from to know where you're going, right? You got to use history to guide it. And what I will say, just growing up what you're saying is like, find a passion. Yeah, but don't feel the need to monetize it. That's this gross mentality that we all have these days.

You don't need to get fulfillment from work is what I learned. I stream in my off time. And I'm super, I'm lucky that I have two things I'm very passionate about that just so happen to get me paid. I turned being a stoner into a career. Somehow I did it. And then I also turned being a guy who likes to play video games and smoke into something that like earns me income and has built me a community.

and guess what? It doesn't pay all the bills, but I love it, and I do it because I love it. And just having something in your life that you do, that you're like, I'm doing this for me, man. I'm doing this because I want to do it, not because someone told me to, not because it's maybe the right thing to do, but because I have a genuine passion and an interest, man, you're going to succeed. You're going to succeed with it. I never thought I'd get paid any sort of money to play video games. I remember being a kid and be playing video games in the basement. My dad would come down.

you're never going to make money playing video games get up there and study and now i remind him all the time i'm like hey man i just paid like part of my rent by like getting really stoned and playing call of duty last night and he's like he's like yeah you were right man i hate to say it i'm like yeah sometimes you're right man chase those passion chase your gut instinct i i always tell people your gut instinct uh is always going to be the right one always how did that happen like maybe can you tell us like what that journey was like you're just all of a sudden you're playing you're like I'm going to start streaming this stuff. And all of a sudden people start checking out your style or how do you go from from that from playing the game smoking some weed to getting paid to do that?

It's crazy. I'm still trying to figure it out myself really what happened. I it started for me at the start of quarantine. I got locked inside. I was I was living with a with a partner at the time. And you know, we were trapped inside. And they didn't really like the fact that I was a gamer. I would like game all day because like that's all I could do.

I'd like look for jobs and whatever and then I would game. And they were like, okay. And I was like, well, maybe like maybe there's something there. And I started watching other Twitch creators, big ones too that I like pay money wubby is a really great example. He's a lovely guy too. I have I end up meeting him. He's so funny. And as he put it when I told him the story, he said, I was like, I was watching you.

And he's like, and then you realized that this dumb ass could do it, you could do it. And I was like, yeah. Yeah, that's it. I wouldn't use those words. I wouldn't call you that. But, you know, like I've always been passionate about about gaming content and about gaming. And I think that it's silly, but it offers up a distraction. And it's something that just engrosses you in the time.

Watching someone else play a video game, it brings me back to being a kid and like sitting in my buddy's basement. And he's doing a really hard level. And he's screaming and throwing the controller and whatnot. And I was like, oh, like, this is, this is fun. And, you know, I started doing it. And for a long time, there was nobody. I was streaming to nobody. I was in my living room.

I was sitting on an old barber's chair, streaming off my PlayStation, and I had a, what was it? I had, like, just a lamp from IKEA that I would, like, put it behind me. So, like,

my lighting was fucked up. And I did that there. And it grew slowly and slowly. And eventually I got a new computer. I, I needed a new computer. I was editing for a company I used to work for. And it wouldn't render out.

They're like, oh, we can help you get a new computer. And I was like, all right, cool. And I sent them a gaming rig. Yeah, this will be good for editing. And they're like, oh, yeah, perfect. Yeah, we'll buy that for you.

And I was like, oh, what the fuck? Okay, I didn't think that would work. So I got this tank of a PC and I started doing it. And, you know, it's that thing of like, find your trap. Don't try to be for everybody. My stream is very specific. It's me being a dumbass. It's me like making jokes that, like, I'm mortified when people from my real life here.

In fact, I, I've been seeing a woman lately. And she was like, oh, yeah, I saw a little bit of it. And I was like, I am mortified. I am so sorry for what you have witnessed. But, you know, I started doing it and, you know, a community started forming around me. And I don't have the biggest community. You know what I mean? There are people on Twitch with hundreds of thousands of views, tens of thousands of views, whatever.

Like, that's not me. But I have the people that connect with what I do and like what I do. And they're there every single week, three days a week. And we have a good time. Like, we get silly. We get goofy. Like I, you know, it's not just playing video games. We like to, we play one game where I let them control my Tinder.

I get the dating apps up and I left them vote for me and I'm like I can't dude I shouldn't be controlling my own love life like I'll let you guys give it a chance to mixed results awesome to very mixed results but you know like little things like that it's just you know it it's something I was passionate about I grew up with a controller in my lap

there's videos of me I was so young I couldn't hold my head up but I was in my dad's lap playing a World War II flight simulator and he's like William pull up on the joystick and I'm pulling up right so like I got that instinct. I was born a gamer. I'm really, I'm really fortunate. Me and my father were able to share that passion together. You know, some people's dads bring them out to play catch in the backyard. My dad would pick up the newest call of duty. He was like, all right, let's get going, my boy. Let's get going. Let's rank up, my dude. So, no, it's been something that's always been in my life.

And, you know, I started doing it exactly as you said. I was like, hey, man, I'm just going to do this for like six months to a year. And if it doesn't come in anything, then you know what? At least I tried. At least I gave it an effort. And I hit affiliate, which is where you can start monetizing your channel. You need to have, and I think it's like the top 5% of streamers. You need to be in there to get an affiliate five to 15% right. Like not everyone gets it. The average viewership on Twitch, when it's broken down from those like tens of thousand channels to the people who are streaming to nobody,

the average viewership is two or three people. So it's beating that and doing it there. And I was able to do that within my first month of streaming, even though I didn't have the setup. even though. So I just, I just went for it and it worked out. And now it's something that, like, I'm so, so passionate about. I do it three days a week. My boss watches my stream. He comes in there. He catches me streaming sometimes when I shouldn't be. But yeah, no, I've had a couple times where he's like, hey, man, aren't you supposed to be working on a contract right now? And I'm like,

it's getting done. Don't worry. This is me. This is me just relaxing. I'm fighting for freedom right now. Thank you very much. Yeah, exactly. Dude, I'm in the pits of Russia right now, fighting for my goddamn life. I have a gun from 1891 and there's a dude with like a modern setup laying down solid fire at me, man. I'm trying to survive right now. I'm trying to live. Yeah. Contract.

It doesn't matter when I'm fucking dead. That's so funny. No, but it's been a lovely journey. I love it. Shout out to my Twitch family. Shout to the Goblin gang. I got a little Gigi there for them. They've given me so much.

happiness in my life. And it's really funny because this community has stuck around longer than all the girlfriends that were telling me it wouldn't be anything. So you know what? Who's laughing now, Janet? No, that's not her. That's not. That's so awesome, man. Oh, it's beautiful. William, I love this conversation, man. I feel like I've gotten to learn not only a lot about the cannabis industry, but I've gotten to learn a lot about who you are and what makes you tick and why you see things the way you do. And in doing that, I get, I get to see this authentic, authentic person. And I've heard a lot of good people say cool things about you, Mark Davis and, you know, I've spoken. Yeah, that guy's amazing. Thanks, Mark, for all the work that you do, man. You're doing a lot of

cool stuff out there. And I bet you, a lot of the people with whom I speak have been affiliated with him or he's giving him good, good advice or partnering him with people. He's like, the unsung hero of like the cannabis and the psychedelic industry doing so much cool stuff out there so shout out to him and yeah it's interesting to see the connections that are being made in this industry and online and streaming and i really think that there's a future for all of us that are steeped in this community and i'm looking forward to being part of it and seeing how it happens but before i let you go my friend where can people find you what do you have coming up what you're excited about what's what's the twitch channel what what you got going on and where people can

find you. If you are in need of any cannabis marketing help at all, go to Greenhouse.agency. That is our website. You can you can contact me there. I'd love to talk about your brand, your idea for a brand or what you're doing in the industry. Although, if you work with me in that context, don't go ahead and check me out on Twitch over at Twitch.tv.tv.com. H-I-Z-O-R-N. I'm there three nights a week, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, from about 420 p.m. EST until late.

We'll play some video games. We'll have a chat. We'll have a smoke. We'll have a good time there. You can also find me under the same handle on YouTube, as well as TikTok and Instagram as well. It's all hippies on. Fantastic.

Well, hang on briefly afterwards. Well, I'd like to spark to you briefly afterwards. But ladies and gentlemen, I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Go down to the show notes. Check it out. Check out the Twitch channel. Do yourself a huge favor. And if you're looking at cannabis as a brand or you know someone that is, check out what we'll ask to say. The guy's a leader in the community in the space. And he's got some unique ideas that nobody else has. So thank you very much, everybody, for checking us out. That's all we got for today. Aloha.