TrueLife - Words Between Worlds: Psychedelics and Inner Cartography

Episode Date: December 8, 2024

One on One Video Call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_US🚨🚨Curious about the future of psychedelics? Imagine if Alan Watts started a secret society with Ram Dass and Hunter S. Thompson… now open the door. Use Promocode TRUELIFE for Get 25% off monthly or 30% off the annual plan For the first yearhttps://www.district216.com/Luke JensonIn the heart of the Sacred Valley of Peru, where the ancient meets the cutting edge, a new frontier of understanding is emerging. Luke Jensen stands at the intersection of neuroscience, anthropology, and the mystical realm of plant medicines. As a neurofeedback practitioner and researcher, Luke has embarked on a groundbreaking journey to map the human brain during one of the most profound spiritual experiences—the use of Huachuma, or San Pedro.For the first time in history, Luke’s work captures the brain’s enigmatic dance through EEG and QEEG imaging before, during, and after encounters with this sacred cactus. His research not only pushes the boundaries of neuroscience but also ventures into the depths of human consciousness, trauma, and the soul itself.Luke’s work reveals a fascinating paradox: while every brain responds differently to plant medicines, they all seem to heal and move toward balance, as if guided by an unseen hand. With inspiration from his mentor, Dr. Richard Soutar, and an unwavering curiosity about the mysteries of the mind, Luke is helping to uncover how plant medicines transform the brain and perhaps even the essence of what it means to be human.Today, we dive into the questions his work raises: How does trauma store itself in the brain? What happens when plant medicines begin to heal these wounds? And what can this research teach us about consciousness itself? It’s a privilege to welcome Luke Jensen, a pioneer at the edge of science and spirit, to the show.🎙️🎙️🎙️Oli Genn-BashAloha and welcome to a conversation that promises to weave together threads of science, philosophy, and the profound mystery of nature. Today, we’re joined by Oli Gen-Bash—a pioneer in the intersection of human consciousness and the enigmatic world of fungi and plants. With a deep-rooted passion for psychedelic exploration, Oli has not only spoken at groundbreaking events like Breaking Convention and Product Earth, but also cultivated a community of curiosity and collaboration as the Founder of The Fungi Consultant and Head of Mycology at Product Earth.A politics postgraduate with a focus on philosophy, mysticism, and critical thinking, Oli approaches the complexities of human experience with the precision of an analyst and the creativity of a musician. As the co-founder of the University of Kent Canterbury Psychedelics Society—now the longest-running student psychedelic society in the UK—he has helped catalyze a movement of open inquiry and connection, even hosting the inaugural Breaking Convention conference in 2011.Oli’s fascination with mycelium is no mere metaphor; he embodies its principles of interconnection and resource-sharing, bridging diverse perspectives to inspire collaboration and empowerment. Whether he’s exploring the symbiotic relationship between humans and nature, or harmonizing the realms of politics and mysticism, Oli brings a rare blend of analytical rigor and creative innovation to every endeavor.Prepare yourself for a dialogue that traverses the fertile ground where nature, philosophy, and consciousness converge. Let’s dive into the mycelial network of ideas with Oli Gen-Bash.Luke http://linkedin.com/in/luke-jensen-658454262Olihttps://thefungiconsultant.com/http://linkedin.com/in/oli-genn-bash-817a65a1 One on One Video call W/George https://tidycal.com/georgepmonty/60-minute-meetingSupport the show:https://www.paypal.me/Truelifepodcast?locale.x=en_USCheck out our YouTube:https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPzfOaFtA1hF8UhnuvOQnTgKcIYPI9Ni9&si=Jgg9ATGwzhzdmjkg

Darkness struck, a gut-punched theft, Sun ripped away, her health bereft. I roar at the void. This ain't just fate, a cosmic scam I spit my hate. The games rigged tight, shadows deal, blood on their hands, I'll never kneel. Yet in the rage, a crack ignites, occulted sparks cut through the nights. The scars my key, hermetic and stark. To see, to rise, I hunt in the dark, fumbling, fear. Hears through ruins maze, lights my war cry, born from the blaze.

The poem is Angels with Rifles. The track, I Am Sorrow, I Am Lust by Codex Serafini. Check out the entire song at the end of the cast. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Live podcast. I have got a stellar show for you guys today. I think you're going to love this. I am going to, I'm hitting a few more buttons here, ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much. So in the heart of the sacred valley of Peru, where the ancient meets the cutting edge, a new frontier of understanding is emerging.

Luke Jensen stands at the intersection of neuroscience, anthropology, and the mystical realm of plant medicines. As a neurofeedback practitioner and researcher, Luke has embarked on a groundbreaking journey to map the human brain. during one of the most profound spiritual experiences. For the first time in history, Luke's work captures the brain's enigmatic dance through EEG and QEEG imaging before, during, and after encounters with this sacred plant medicine. His research not only pushes the boundaries of neuroscience, but also ventures into the depths of human consciousness, trauma, and the soul itself. Luke's work reveals a fascinating paradox.

While every brain responds differently to plant medicines, they all seem to heal and move towards balance, as if guided by an unseen hand. With inspiration from his mentor, Dr. Richard Sautur, and an unwavering curiosity about the mysteries of the mind, Luke is helping to uncover how plant medicines transform the brain and perhaps even the essence of what it means to be human. Today we dive into the questions of his work raises. How does trauma store itself in the brain? What happens when plant medicines begin to heal these wounds, and what can this research

teach us about consciousness itself. It's a privilege to welcome Luke Jensen, a pioneer at the edge of science and spirit to the show. Luke, thanks so much for being here today. How are you? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. That was a great introduction.

I appreciate it. Well, I appreciate what you're doing down there, man. And I can't wait for the people today to learn more. And it seems like this might be the year of Luke Jensen, man. You're exploding down there. You got all kinds of cool stuff going on. I want you just give us a little snippet of maybe a little bit of background. and what's going on today in your world?

Yeah, so 10 years ago, I visited Prud for the first time after deploying Afghanistan. I was in the Marines. I found a lot of healing through plant medicines, ayahuasca. It really opened me up to another world. And then soon after that, a friend brain map me, the QBG brain map. I learned about neuroscience and it's called another realm. And, you know, for me, it was such an empowering thing. She does this brain map because, oh, you have a pattern for PTSD and you can train that away.

So for me, this is really cool. It wasn't like talk therapy, which, you know, was a tough marine. I didn't really want to do that. It wasn't prescription medication, which I was, you know, into natural health back then. So I wasn't into that route. But, oh, you just train this brainwave. And then I started researching this technology and I realized there's tons of spiritual implications. because, you know, our body, our brain, our nervous systems, a seat of consciousness.

So you learn how to control that, you can control meditative states, deep states, spiritual states. So it was my idea to combine these two modalities together. I showed up to a conference. I met my mentor there named Dr. Richard Suter. And he goes up and waiting a meet someone like you, I'll train you. So that was about five years ago now. I've been working with them very closely for five years. And so part of what I do is research.

I study plant medicines with QUG brain mapping in an unique way, I would say. I published two studies in this last year. Since last December, I published two studies. One on ayahuasca pre-imposed brain maps, which I think is the only study to ever do this, to track changes over time. Other studies will take a brain map during the experience. but no one's tracking change,

what I think is very interesting. And then I also published a study in Wachuma, which is the first study to ever brain image Wachuma. So no one's actually ever done that before, at least published it. So that means MRI, spec scans, QEGs, EEGs, EGs, no one's actually ever measured it in that way. So that was also really cool.

So all that, all those things happened within the last year. We started running on retreats, which we combine. Well, this is kind of inspiration, I want to do a long time. And, you know, things come together. I don't know if I was ready for it yet. But a friend came, like, is, hey, I'm welcome to Peru and run a retreat. Like, okay, we'll make it happen.

And our retreats do pre and post brain mapping. So everything that comes through, they can see the change in their brain. After three ayahuasca ceremonies, I don't watch auma ceremony. It's a very validated experience because you can show them, like, anxiety is lifting, depression, lifting. And, you know, like, oh, okay, this. This wasn't just in my head. There's like new neural pathways happening. And it really validates the experience and shows them something to happen.

So it's been a really interesting time. And now, yeah, we have a documentary coming out soon. We just finished it. And we did a couple local showings with it. We don't have an exact date yet. But it's all been a really wild ride this last year, I would say. Man, I wish I had the, did you, I wish I had the map of your brain before all this it happened and then the map afterwards. I bet you it's off the charts man.

Well, you know, when he started getting into brain mapping and get into the science, I wish I had brain maps all throughout my life, you know, before the core, after the Marine Corps, you know, what was my childhood brain like, you know? But yeah, so since I started doing this, I probably have done like 15 brain maps, you know. And the beautiful thing about what I do is I do the brain mapping, but also do the neurofeedback. So I train states. So I train the brain. There's really no upper limit on that.

And there's really no limit of learning. So I'm constantly trying different mythologies. I have my core neurofeedback methods I use on myself. And the people are close to me that I'm working with all the time. But there's really no upper limit to the brain. You can train it forever. And just like a meditator can get new depths of meditation 30 years later. The brain is a similar thing.

There's no limit. And when you're training the brain, those neural pathways are strengthening. Everything's getting stronger. You're more resilient. And, yeah, it's been a very powerful process for me and the people I work with. What does that look like when you're training the brain? Like, are you watching the, do you see the, like, what does that look like? When you see the neural feedback, is that a set of lines that come in waves?

And if so, when you look at those waves, you just try to reimagine the state that you were in to continue to have that particular pattern. How do you train it? That's a really good question. So how we train the brain? So it looks differently from the person that's training the brain. I'm interfacing with the brain through my computer, right? So I can, on my computer, I see their brain waves live. But the person that's training it on their brain, it's either eyes closed or eyes open.

and there's a reward system it's opera conditioning so if the eyes open um the screen will get lighter or darker depending on the right brainwave or not so say someone has ADD the classic pattern is a high theta pattern we can't focus so and then we want like a low beta pattern relax focus one train that up so when they get the right brainwave the screen it's lighter and awards them when the wrong state it gets darker so rewarding a healthy pattern and And in this case, it's a really good analogy that it's a mirror in front of the brain. The first time the mirror is a reflection of itself. So the brain wants to become more healthy.

So the brain is doing millions of calculations a second that you can't do consciously, but it's doing in itself because you just show it the path and it wants to become more healthy. So that's the eyes open training, the eyes closed train, you'll hear a tone. So we do eyes close for more relaxing states, meditative states, deep states, megotic states, and it rewards you the tone, and you'll slowly go into deeper states as you hear the tone more. So say a meditator,

it takes a meditator, maybe years to learn meditation because they have to figure out that brainway for themselves. But with this technology, we can reward that exact brainwave. The brain is like, oh, okay, this is where I need to go. So in that situation,

the reward with the tone, and on my end, I can see their brain. brain waves. So I can see them moving in a healthy state or I can see the brain regulating. So it's very interesting. It's the only modality I know of where I can see actually trauma lifting from the body because I can see the brain become more healthy. And that's the beautiful thing about plant medicines. I love plant medicines, but it's sometimes hard to tell. Like, well, how far have I progressed? What is it done for me?

And that's why I integrate the two because I can directly see what's happening in the brain. Yeah. And I think it sort of is beginning to bridge that gap between quantified. and unquantifiable because it seems like that's one of the things that's missing from clinical trials is his ability to really okay well Where's the results can you show us the results? You know well I can show you that my husband's less of an asshole I can show you these tears of joy for someone that doesn't have this addiction anymore people are like yeah, I got it But I want to see the actual results man, you know what it sounds like that's kind of what some of the things you're doing might be able to prove well yeah i agree um so if people use plant medicines they have that subjective experience which is very very powerful they know that something amazing happened um but you know science uses

observation and we're a culture of science or a culture of a scientific method so how do you reach those people right and my objective is not to explain away consciousness itself um i think this deepens that like i never will explain the way someone's visions you know i think some people worry about that when i first talk about science like no i'm that's not my objective i'm my objective to see like to understand deeper how the healing works and what we do is with our studies we'll have a questionnaire study that's you know really related to um neurophysology and then we'll have the brain mapping so we're the first studies of this kind i know of we're tracking questionnaire and the brain maps at the same time pre-imposed.

So the both can validate each other. So, for example, we had one person in their ayahuasca study that had really strong symptoms of self-report for ADD. That's a report on this questionnaire. And his brain pattern showed the classical high theta pattern for ADD, like this dissociation can't focus. After three ayahuasca ceremonies, that pattern was gone, the self-report symptoms were gone.

So I believe it was a first person to report on this for ADD, but this gives us insight and healing, right? So wait, what does that mean about ADD? Maybe if the trauma response, maybe that person's dissociation not to fill trauma. So we're getting new insights into trauma itself, a mind works, how psychology works, and who we are as conscious beings.

So I think a lot of retreats will say we change a person, we'll change the world one person at a time, but if we create the science, the data, this is how you change a culture. society, you're doing the civilization because you built these data sets and no one can argue with it. Like, hey, these are pre-post brain maps with like 100 people or 1,000 people. And that's our goal to keep building those data sets up and have larger analysis.

Yeah, it seems like one of those things, the more you have, the more concrete the evidence. Like, especially we start talking about patterns, right? Like if you, if you have a, you know, there's that, um, the logical fallacy of a small representation set, but the bigger set you have, the more difficult it is to argue against, right? Yeah, so our initial studies are small data sets, and that's really good for exploratory research. Our goal isn't, you know, the double-blind, you know, classical, you know,

gold standard, as they say it. But we're getting this data that one else has received, you know, and, you know, as we get, you know, hopefully maybe get grants or something like that, we can start connecting more studies. But just the way we do, at doing retreats, you know, we're building that data set up. So eventually, you know, as we get to a higher percentage, like, you know, how many brain maps do people need to see? We're like, wait, there's something going on here for sure, right?

Yeah. And that's really my goal is to build the data set to say, like, hey, we have preimposed data maps for, say, like, 100 people or 200 people or more, you know, as the years go on. And if we see these distinct trends, you know, what does that mean? Like something's going on. And I think many people and, you know, are still stuck. in this mindset or that this is just some kind of like hippie stuff or it's just some kind of hallucination that people are having well even that's true i don't think that's true but even if that is true it's obviously changing people's lives right i think this should be interesting because some

people come back and maybe get married or maybe get divorced or maybe start a hobby or maybe like you start singing or music or painting like something's happening and i think it's um our job is human beings to be bold and try to figure that out. Yeah, I couldn't agree. I couldn't agree more. I think it speaks to the world of integration as well, too. I know a lot, I get to speak to a lot of really cool people who have these really interesting techniques about helping people not only make changes in their life, but maintain those changes. And it seems to me with sort of the neuro network, the biofeedback, the biofeedback.

or the brain mapping, like that's a pretty powerful tool for people to see that resonates with them. Like, oh, I can see the changes. I can feel the changes and I can see them. That sounds like something that could be a huge part of integration. No, I mean, yeah, that's one of the things I really focus. I'm glad you brought it up because, you know, for me personally,

everyone's different. For me, I had a really bad PTSD. I came down to Peru for the first time. I had a really powerful experience, like three months, For three months after that, that was great. I was feeling awesome. And then old thought patterns came back. And all things like that came back, anxiety just came back.

And the same thing would go back down again, do ayahuasca, and then the same thing would happen again. So for me, the neurofeedback was the daily practice that really got me where I wanted to go. The ayahuasca gave me insight and neurofeedback complimented perfectly. Because I couldn't do ayahuasca every day, if I could train these deep states and keep releasing, and trauma. So actually, one of our main modalities is using integration with neurofeedback. So people go home and I can send them a home training unit. They can keep training and progressing. It doesn't have to stop after doing it, the YWASC that you can keep progressing and have insights and

training spiritual states. So I send people home. I can send people home with a device after they visit Peru, but also I can train anyone in anyone in the world who hasn't done in plan. medicine say I'm not ready for that yet I'm not sure if I'm ready for Peru yet and they can pair for ayahuasca say with neurofeedback or just do their own work spiritual work without neurofeedback you know or without ayahuasca and just use the spiritual training to the neurofeedback training to reach spiritual states so I have some people that work with that never been to Peru and they just want an edge or some people might have head trauma or some people might have anxiety or some people have ADD so we can train the brain it can be so

so many different things. Yeah. I like, I keep going back, in my mind, I keep going back to this idea that you said a few moments ago about putting a mirror in front of the brain. And I can't help but think of the states, the psychedelic states, at least for me, allow me almost like a third person point of view. And it's so meta to start thinking about a mirror in front of your brain. Like that's, you know what I mean on some level?

it blows my mind because it's a great way to change your awareness. It's a great way to think in almost another dimensionality. And that's where real changes can be made outside the ideas of shame, outside the ideas of guilt, outside the ideas of self. You can really get to look at yourself in a way that is non-judgmental. And that's where real patterns can be observed and changed, it seems like to me. No, what you say is huge because my forgiveness, it really blew my mind because all of a sudden, my brain is doing the work and I'm not. What does that mean? What's that imply for mind?

What's that apply for consciousness? And just like what you're saying, the observer effect that maybe Eastern religions are talking about for a while, then we're bringing us back through science, right? We're seeing it right here. So, yeah, I think it adds a depth to everything you're saying right there. Yeah, it blows my mind. I got a question coming in. It says, is the balance and healing observed in the brain under the influence of plant medicines evidence of a deeper universal intelligence within us? Well, yeah, I think it speaks to a lot of things.

I think it speaks to intelligence within the plants. How is, really, how is this happening? You know, like, what's that imply? And I think it speaks to intelligence within us. and that intelligence that allows those two things to link. There's something going on. I think there's a lot of mysteries to be explored. But yeah, that's exactly what's being demonstrated by these things.

Yes, the essence mirrors are a way to reflect in the moment. Yeah, I've never even heard that term essence mirrors before, but it's out there, I guess. Have you heard that term before, Luke? Essen or a scene? A scene, I'm sorry, a scene mirrors. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm not exactly sure, but it wasn't towards the scenes, like a spiritual movement in the desert?

I don't know. So I'm not sure. I want to look it up here. We've got another question coming. It says, does your research suggest that the brain itself holds a map to spiritual awakening? Or is the process driven by something beyond the physical? Yeah. So the beautiful thing about mapping is that it does allow a path, right?

Because say just standard neurofeedback, I can take a map as somebody where they're disregulated. I have an idea where I want to go, where they want to go, to become healthy, right, to relieve anxiety, depression. And those things are spiritual. If someone's operating less out of anxiety, less out of trauma, more from their heart, right, more from their soul. That's spiritual itself. And then we can train these deep states. We know how to get to them. And as far as brain mapping goes, we can see meditation all the way up to Satori.

We can't see past that. So there's probably something going on at a quantum level or these micro networks that we can't see. But we can see a lot of it. It's very interesting. So. Yeah. It makes me wonder, do you think we could tell a lot about culture about if we use neurofeedback? I would imagine that if you were to map someone's brain.

who lives in Southern California was born and raised there versus someone who lives in the Sacred Valley. I bet you they have a different set of brain waves going on, right? And is that reflective of culture on some level? Yeah, I think so. My mentor talks about this because he's in the field for three or four decades now. I mean, you know, I think around that time, but he has seen patterns change over time. So the pattern we're seeing a lot now is what we call perseverance or a busy mind that can't slow down. And I think this has a lot to do with technology.

People always look at their iPhones and distractions. So we're seeing that their brain patterns reflecting back. So I think at different points in times, different cultural constructs, we'll see different patterns for sure. Yeah, it's interesting to think about what that means for us. I think that once you get good at looking at, once you get good at sort of understanding the data, then you can begin to see not only patterns like ADD,

but just mental illness and mental wellness as well, right? Yeah, I mean, we have a natural homeostatic state that our body desire to be in. I think in ancient times was much easier, but with modern diet and stresses and all these things, it's created a situation where it's harder to achieve that. But it's to acknowledge that it really opens it up for that healing. and healing the natural process for human beings.

We just allow ourselves to do it. Yeah. So you got a new documentary coming out in the next few months. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that, man. That sounds amazing. Yeah, no. So, yeah, where life takes you. I didn't think I'd have a documentary coming out.

I met a friend in Jiu-Jitsu. And it turns out as a documentary filmmaker, And now, the people you meet in Peru sometimes. He was, he's from Spain, but he worked for the London Real. He was in London, making big time productions. And then he's kind of fell in love with plants and plant medicines. I was living in Peru. And I'm like, well, hey, I'd love you to make a documentary for me.

And at the time, like, we're both poor. I don't really have any money because we're living in Peru, just, you know, get by. And I mentioned to my mentor, Dr. Richard Suter, his company, knew my technologies. and he said he'd sponsor it, which is a huge, huge deal for me to be sponsored by someone. And he said he sponsor it. So we did a retreat last March,

I had a good friend that came down. He actually had seen for like 10, 15 years before that. He was my unit. And before that, he wrote a book of a dog that he had that, that changed his life. This dog had cancer. So he took this dog around the States for six months for the last months of its life and had this beautiful moments with his dog and had this huge social media following. Even went on Today Show and wrote a book.

I'm like, well, hey, come down here. Let's have another adventure. So the documentary tracks his story of plant medicines and healing his trauma. His brother died in Iraq, actually. And then my story and then how the neurofeedback and plant medicines come together. So there's a really beautiful story arc and there's a really powerful way to, explain how plant medicines and brain map and neurofeedback can be applied to go together and how this benefit to my friend at a personal level so it was really powerful nice allie thanks

for joining in man we got luke jensen on the line over here luke this is allie this is luke i'm so stoked you're both here uh ollie how's it going man we're just talking about some some neural feedback and psychedelics man amazing thanks so much george nice to meet you luke um yeah great to join you guys. I know, fascinated to hear, hey, yeah,

really fascinated to hear about neurofeedback and psychedelics. I know a little bit. I, uh, chatted to my friend Heather Hargraves, quite a bit about neurofeedback.

Um, don't know if you've heard of her. I've had experience neurofeedback done, uh, used the, the helium hardware. And yeah, really fascinated to hear more,

you know, because I've got such limited experience. I mean, cool. Yeah, I mean, I haven't probably reading books about neurofeedback for like 10 years now because I was so fascinated with it, but professionally for five. And it's one of those fields that you'll always be learning because it's the brain, the mind. And then how they, and you bring plant medicines, like the soul consciousness. So, yeah, I mean, it's been really amazing. We were just talking, Ollie, about how it gives an individual something visceral,

to look at. So many of the psychedelic states seem to be subjective. Even though they're full of powerful, profound changes, a lot of it is subjective and science seems like we want something to grab onto. Do you think neural feedback could be that sort of link that we're looking for to really sort of have something to look at to match up these subjective states? Yeah, it's a really interesting question. For me, my experience was of this interface in a way that you're you're talking about almost a standardized interface. I was engaging with some hardware and some software and it was quite clear and I had headphones and a muse headband on. So there were very tangible things that I was engaging with. So in that sense, it prepped the system,

I think, so to speak, which might be a bit different to psychedelics. You know, people often talk about psychedelics as a form of technology, which I think is a really interesting way of talking about them, my friend Darren Labarron, who's an expert mushroom cultivator, speaks a lot about mushrooms as technology. I still think we're a little bit behind that in terms of our actual experience of them as technology, and it's really useful having these interfaces that can standardize a model or a program to help us engage. And that's what I found so profound. with my neurofeedback experience was almost this disbelief that someone could say to me, you're going to engage with this, this is the intention.

And if you do these things, this is essentially what you'll achieve. And I was like, okay, I went in open-minded. I was really calm about it. And I think I started crying during the experience because it was just that, that feeling of knowing of where to hold it, where to hold that resonance and how easy it was to drop out of that resonance, but also how easy it was just to go back into it. And it was almost like a warm hug or something, someone telling me, hey, you can do this. It's okay. You almost have a choice of how to resonate. And that for me was so powerful. And I think, you know, it was without language.

Okay, the person who directed me was speaking in English, but the actual experience was a non-linguistic experience. It was an energetic resonance experience. That's the only way I can describe it. And I guess, you know, it is that entrainment. It's that self-regulation of the brainwaves that you're doing to yourself and realizing how powerful the human brain is, but using the technology, it's almost like using the digital

as a useful interface to engage with the physical neurobiological stuff that's going on. Yeah. What do you think about when you hear that, Luke, when it comes to your mind? Well, yeah. I mean, I think it's really interesting. My mentor calls neurofeedback electronic yoga because this is what the yogi is. It's interesting to think about because, like, to have these altered states of consciousness, takes training, right?

Often psychedelics are these beautiful thing or plant medicines, but it's often like a shortcut. The meditators, they've actually built those structures in the brain over years and years of training. So those structures are strengthened. And neurofeedback's doing the same thing. So yoga is in preparation for altered states of consciousness that are in a healthy way for the individual.

So neurofeedback is doing that same thing. It's that training. So you combine that training with plant medicines. I think we're opening interesting doorways and we're going interesting ways, interesting paths. Yeah. Did you have something to add, Ollie? I just wanted to ask what you found to be,

when you talk about plant medicines, do you find that there are some which have more potential to be used in combination with neurofeedback than others? Well, I think we're still at early stages. I think these are like questions we'll research more. I have a feeling as we go through this, the one thing I've mentioned to people is that I will see different plant medicines may be effective for different things. Some might be good for PTSD. Some might be good for head trauma.

So, so, you know, it depends. I kind of have heard peripherally from people that the mushrooms and alpha theta might be a good protocol to do together. I remember this woman, she's like the head of the NFL concussion program. That's what she works with as athlete. She goes, if you looks at me, She goes, yeah, like I have PTSD. I do mushrooms and alpha theta. So she goes in these deep states on mushrooms. And I have to talk to her again to see what that dose she uses. So right now it's a lot of like self-expermentation.

And I know like modern 21st century, I don't know, I guess self-expermentation is kind of frowned upon. But if you look at the early 20th century in late 19th century, everyone did this. It was like Huxley, but also everyone else with mescaline. They're all self-experimenting back then. And that was considered good science to go out there and try. try it out and figure it out. So I think that we're in that stage again kind of this new area where like we're going to try these things out and figure it out. Yeah. It's interesting. Haven't you recently written two papers, Luke, on Wuchama and San Pedro? And what is different

in those two substances versus ayahuasca when you're doing the, when you're doing the neurofeedback? Well, so we, yeah, we brain map both. For the ayahuasca, we had pre-maps and post-brain maps. And in Wachuma, we had pre-dural during and post and um how our brain mapping system works which i think is really cool it comes out of the field of neurofeedback so it's basically been ignored by mainstream neuroscience mainstream psychology mainstream science in general so how we look at the brain is different than them so how a neurologist looks at the brain they're looking at brain waves mostly to see like head trauma or epilepsy or patterns like this but with with qdg brain mapping as it's

done by my mentor's company, me, my technologies, and other neurofeedback companies, we can see emotional state, right? So we can see, like, when trauma is in the system. And what I think we're seeing, which is most profound, is that plant medicines have a way of reducing trauma in the system. So a brain compartmentalizes trauma in certain ways. Some people have a busy mind perseverance. Some people have ADD disassociation. Some people worry. Some people the future, some people think of the past. These different mechanisms are ways, subconscious mechanisms for the brain to criminalize trauma. And so what we're seeing is both with ayahuasca and whatchuma, that those ways, those trauma

mechanisms are reducing in the system. So that the brains are becoming more regulated. Now in the future, I think we'll take more time to see maybe the differences between the two, but both, both plant medicines, both ayahuasca and whatchuma, both seem to move in a healthy direction, move the brain. So an overactive brain will quiet. An underactive brain might gain more power, might speed up. Someone has a busy mind or someone has like ADD, that will come related.

So both plant medicines seem to move the brain a healthy direction, which I think is really cool because you think of a pharmaceutical drug, it just moves everyone in the same direction. And there's nothing really like this in the world, so maybe adaptogens. So I think this is really going to give us a whole new model on trauma once this is widely understood. And this will give us a whole insight into healing, right? How does healing happen?

And then once we understand that, we'll be able to engage that mechanism much, much more effectively. Yeah. For me, it brings up this question of, are there different, I don't know if this is possible, but when you look at brainwave activity, is there a difference between healing and optimization? You know what I mean?

Because sometimes we get stuck in these words. We want to be healed, but some people want to be optimized. And if you think of optimization, maybe you think of like an athlete that's trying to get to the next level or a businessman that wants to conquer the one. I don't know. But are those two things the same thing? Yeah, no, I think they're definitely the same spectrum.

I think you're definitely the same thing. So, for example, when there's trauma in the brain, There's a famous book called The Body Keeps a Score. It's about trauma in the body. And our body holds on the trauma physically. And there's trauma in the brain as well physically. So you start healing the brain, everything starts coming online better. Their memory starts working better.

Because the reason memory is not effective or not where it should be because when trauma is in the system, the system compartmentalize, the brain compartmentalizes that trauma. And then since the memory uses so many different sections of the brain, memory affected. So it's all on the same spectrum. So as you heal, that's peak performance. And then there's no one ever really that's totally healed from trauma. It's always a thing you're kind of working on unless you're like a lighten Buddha.

But then, for example, say like with neurofeedback, like, okay, I've done a lot of work healing their trauma. Like, what do they want to specialize in? Like, what do they really want to work on? So I can, like, if it's an athlete, I can train the motor cortex for them to be better in that way. There's some people that, like, train opera singers, for example, with neurofeedback. They just train that part of the brain. So it's all kind of part of a spectrum. But I would say as you heal trauma, that's a healthy performance.

And then after that, you can start working specifically on where they want to go, even more so. Ollie, what do you think about that? What's your take? I mean, I think it's really fascinating. You know, when I think about the brainwave states, I'm drawn to these ideas of oscillations. And I was speaking to my friend who's a neuroscientist, and he's looking really deep into the actual sine waves

within the oscillations to, you know, look at it on this micro level. And do you think there's something there where, we can really fine tune the oscillations within a certain state and maybe reconceptualize how we're feeling or how we are or what's happening as a state rather than I have depression. It's I'm experiencing a depressed state or I am in an anxious state. And that's okay. And it's something you can work with.

But it's not the defining characteristic. It's not necessarily you. You are not your thoughts. your brainwave is in a state and it needs to be more regulated. Do you think it can be, I guess, standardized, fine-tune to this point where, you know, you will get that optimal result? Yeah, no, I think that's a really powerful insight we were saying. Because I had that same insight.

So when I had my first brain map, she goes, you have a pattern for PTSD, insomnia, and anxiety. that took this onus off me like oh like something wrong with me and like oh i have this brain pattern i have this state like you were saying and my job was to train it right so it took this it was hugely empowering for me so then sometimes i'll train like i'll do a brain app to someone like hey you might have trouble focusing you of that brain pattern like oh i thought that was just me that's a brain pattern you know so it's so empowering for people to hear like no that's not you that's not you're not your thoughts like you said like and you can you can change that's you can change you know you can

these things and it gives people such a level empowerment and that's the really beautiful thing because all this technology is to empower people and then going into like the subtleties of the brain waves like I think there's so much to explore so much to learn when you see brainwaves going across the screen it's really it's really like a zen like experience when you know what you're looking at because this is literally the life force of you going across your screen and within that you see everything about a person and the true genius in the field can look at your raw brain waves and see everything about you and it's something that it's like learning the sanskrit learning

your own language from the brain so yeah i think there's so much to learn i think there's lots of people interested in gamma waves for example and there's these little brain waves that write other brain waves and what do those mean and some people you know those associate like peak experiences and meditation and and some people say if you train these gamma waves like we can train like energy healers can become more powerful or psychic people more powerfully trained the gamma waves, you know? So we don't know where all this goes, but I think we're, yeah, it's definitely that peak potential and then there's also like that empowerment that we're not our state, like you said, we're not our thoughts, that we can train these things.

When I start hearing about that, I think of a tuning fork. And I think of that old analogy of like, we are the receivers and we radiate outwards on some level. And then I start thinking about, wow, it's interesting to hear about people sitting and ceremony together. And is this contagious? And we've all been around people that's like, wow, this person is fun to be around or this person's like an energy vampire. Are these states that are going on in our mind? Are we a tuning fork? Are we radiating outwards this energy? And it's singing up with other people's brains. And maybe we're getting on that next level with

them. It seems like there's so much there. Yeah, no, I think that's exactly, there's so much to go in with that. But yeah, I think we are these tuning forks. One, I think there's a lot of people that say that our body, the physical, is a tuning forth for our consciousness. We're like a receiver for consciousness itself. And then we're in the physical. We're actually tuning in to other people. So, you know, I think if you look at a shaman and like an apprentice, that shaman apprentice, their brain leaves are sinking. If you look at a whole room full of people, like their brain names are sinking, but their heart waves.

You know, their heart energy is probably sinking. And there's probably a quantum level. we can't measure yet, that's probably syncing up. And this idea of synchronicity and everything is syncing up, I think it's for sure going on. I think I remember reading once that one person used to hook up married couples for marriage counseling and sink their brainwaves up. And they had these really powerful experiences because they were synced up,

their brainwaves are synced up. So, yeah, like, what are the limits? What are the potential is this? I don't know anything we even know yet. I think it's very interesting. I remember you recently just mentioned adaptogens. I remember a conversation I was having with someone where we were talking about adaptogens, nootropics, functional mushrooms, and wondering, okay, you've got loads of situations,

whether it's a workplace situation or a family situation where there's disagreements or misunderstandings or things just aren't quite working properly. People aren't resonating. They're not vibing on the same level. the communication is really problematic. And we were wondering, hey, if you could get, you know, a whole workplace using, you know, the same dose of Lyonsmain or Rishi or cordyceps or a family doing that, would you be able to finally tune it, you know, so that people are resonating on a similar level

with something which has possibly less, you know, potential for adverse effects, like psychedelic, something that you could maybe easily integrate a bit more in terms of predictability, I think. So wondering, I don't know, have you explored what's happening to people's brains when they're taking things like Lions Main? Or is it more the psychedelics that are showing more promise at the moment? Well, psychedelics of my primary research because I'm in Peru, I have a free ring right down there. Actually, I'm in the States right now. My family for Thanksgiving and Christmas. But in Peru, I've trained research psychedelics.

It's been my primary research. But I've actually researched other things like tobacco. People go on tobacco diettas. And I was kind of surprised because after two weeks of tobacco dieta, I saw really powerful changes in the brain as well. So as far as adaptogens, I love adaptogens. I think they're great. I think I can definitely see.

what you're talking about and the potential to that and just from my insight okay what would adapt to do they really help out stress right it helps the body like in stressful situations with physical stress or mental stress helps that out but say mental stress if everyone's stress level is reduced and everyone can adapt in a certain way they can adapt to each other in a much better way they can adapt the situations in a certain way and they won't be operating out like the stress response. So I think definitely, I think there's a lot of hope to what you're talking about. Sometimes I wonder too, being where you're at, Luke, it seems to me that a lot of people

come down there with leverage on themselves. You know what I mean by that? Like they're ready for change. And so they have made that change. And now they're in this new environment. What role do you think that, or can you see those changes in brainwaves when someone just moves into a new environment, that seems like a big part of it is if someone wants to break patterns, the first thing that they might want to do is find a brand new environment to be on. No, I think that's huge. This is my personal life. I've been a veteran, like going to the jungle, living in the jungle, before I even did ayahuasca,

it was such a powerful experience. I remember when I first went down, it was four days in the jungle. I talked to this pre-facilitator. I'm like, wow, this is great, this amazing experience. And then she gives me a little, like, rice smile. She goes, wait till they try ayahuasca, you know? But, like, really,

just the experience of being down there is so powerful. I know many veterans that live in, like, foreign countries because, like, you can be closer to nature. You can live on a beach for a lot less expensive. You can live in the jungle. And for me, like, just being in the country of Peru, and, like, you know,

especially the jungles throughout my nature, like, that is healing. And I haven't done researches to myself. I know other people have. I think there's this book called, like, the three-day experiment, where people go in nature for three days and their brain is dramatically more relaxed. They're just in nature, you know.

So I think an environment is critical. And I think that especially Americans and Westerners, we live in these concrete jungles and cities and stuff. So whatever we can do to like change things up or even bring in some plants inside and stuff like that can be really powerful. Yeah, I agree. What do you think? What's your thoughts on that, Ollie? It's a really fascinating one because, you know, particularly with, psychedelics. I've personally had a lot of experiences by myself and at times the environment hasn't been

so important depending on the nature of the experience depending on the strength of the experience. It might just be something where I'm needing to really go within and the external environment isn't that important and actually you know there's other people around me that can maybe create, I don't know, an experience that might not be so pleasant depending on whatever the other person's going through. And I think as well, you know, it's great that you are in a place like Peru where you've got this freedom. I think in, you know, and the US as well, where there is more of that freedom in a place like the UK where things aren't necessarily so ordained, things are really underground. It's,

It's difficult to find these kind of experiences. So a lot of it is doing it on your own without necessarily a whole lot of guidance or a lot of those spaces provided. And like the UK, I think, is the most concreted country in Europe. So, I mean, I'm quite fortunate. I live on the edge of a national park. And I've got that ability, literally, you know,

not even five minutes walk. and I'm on beautiful downland with lots of views and it's not the same for a lot of people in this country. There's a lot of people who are in quite difficult situations that, you know, they can't afford to go to somewhere like Peru or go to somewhere where it's allowed to take psychedelics. And on top of that, their environment is a concrete jungle and there's all the other things going on, like systemic inequalities and stress and all of this going on. So it's, you know, I'm always intrigued as to how we can create more accessible experiences to, yeah, give people that, that respite, put people in different environments where,

you know, it does create that change. I mean, I've never taken ayahuasca. I have been to Ekeitos. I just, when I was in South America, I was like, I just want to go to Ekeitos and check out this city that's, you know, a lot. of a million people in the middle of the Amazon. It's like insane. I just wanted to soak up a lot of the energy there. And like I got so, I've never been somewhere where I was just got this buzz, like being on reserves or just meeting different people and really feeling this energy of

ayahuasca meeting so many people that are talking about ayahuasca. And I had a very different experience in Kusco where I took part in a San Pedro ceremony. And that, It strangely kind of felt a bit like more like home. I was up on a mountain. The scenery was like, oh yeah, it kind of looks a bit like Scotland or Wales. There was this ruggedness about it that I,

I resonated with. And it was actually, in a way, less of a powerful experience than being in the Amazon on no psychedics. After that San Pedro experience, I felt a little bit, I wouldn't say cheated, but I felt a little bit like,

oh, that was, you know, that was so gentle. It was so calm. I was on a mountain. It kind of felt like I was in Scotland, you know. And then afterwards, the integration of it, it turns out it was one of the most profound, beautiful experiences in my life. But yeah, just being in the Amazon,

it's wild. Being on the Amazon River, going to see pink river dolphins and just sitting on a boat, you're not moving, you're just taking in that stillness and you catch a glimpse of this, you know, pink thing going to the water, and you're like, wow, what was that? And you realize it is this place of magic.

And I can't imagine, well, you know, heard so many stories and so many people I know tell me about the, especially the audible experience of being in the Amazon under the influence of ayahuasca. If you've never been in a jungle, if you come from a city and then you go to the Amazon and you've got all these insects and creatures that you've never heard before, it must be. I mean, I've lived on farms in Tasmania. where, you know, I'm on, maybe like smoked a bit of weed and there's all the different things going off, all the frogs, all the different insects. I'm like, this is wild, you know. So, yeah, it's a really special place. And I, you know, I find that with like the UK with a lot of the pagan sites and standing stones and laylines and areas of significance, you pick up that energetic resonance.

Again, you know, it's coming back to this idea of resonance, I think, which is really important. Yeah, I love that. It's, in some ways it makes me think of this other question that I had written out here. And since I have both of you experts with me here, I'm curious to get your guys' opinion on this one. Fungi embody principles of interconnection and resource sharing. How do these natural principles challenge the philosophical concept of individualism in human society? Anyone want to take that one first? Yeah, I mean, this is something I'm thinking about.

on a daily basis and community. I'm currently collaborating shout out to Mycelium Hub in Sweden. They're a really interesting group of people that I've just started talking to, but they're looking at principles of mycelial interconnectedness and how that can help people, I guess, who have been in the corporate space for a long time and feeling burnt out and feeling a lack of purpose, have put all of their time and energy into working, whatever, 70-hour weeks for a lot of money

and realizing that that way of doing things hasn't necessarily, you know, been the end goal and they're looking for other ways to connect. And, you know, I think if we can find ways to replicate what's going on in nature, this idea, as you said, resource sharing, even when you've got two different species of fungi and nature, they won't it's not competition in the same way that we think of competition it's not trying to get one over on the other it's you know this acknowledgement and respect hey okay you can take those resources there i'll take these there but we're all a part of of the forest it's it's not this top down way of doing things it's not a CEO coming into a boardroom saying i've got these targets and

you've got to hit these targets by the second quarter and you know if you don't everyone's fired It's like a mushroom would probably laugh at that way of doing things, I think. Yeah. Luke, did you find, when you initially went down to Peru, did you find not only the act of moving into a new location that was geographically much more diverse than you were used to, but also the culture of like, this is how things are done here. Did you find that to be something that was healing? Yeah. So like, there's like, in a Western culture, with like this sense of control or everything has to be controlled and and um down there's that's that's not

something of a big deal it's kind of everyone's kind of going with the flow and life does kind of happens and you know for the for a lot of Westerners like it really challenging at first you know because maybe things won't get done they want to get done and things like that oh yeah try try trying try getting a bus in uh in Bolivia yeah but yeah i really i really appreciate how like yeah how like yeah how things are done differently you know we always have a thing that our way is the best way and but there's other ways too and um and i really appreciate like um so sometimes i go and i drive around my motorcycle in the mountains and i'll see some peruvians they'll wave me down they call chicha it's like a corn drink an alcoholic corn drink and making corn they invite me over and like around noon they all start

drinking chicha where they're working so they're kind of drinking and things start slowing down I don't know how much work it's done. Like I'll sit talking for a half an hour. Like what kind of crops are growing. And I just kind of sit around and look at this like, wow, this is not bad life. You know, I'm always like rushing around doing stuff all the time. But they're always very much in the present. So I really enjoy that.

Yeah. It's it's mind-blowing to me to think. You know what it kind of gets me going down this road of is this idea of why we have trauma in the first place. And sometimes especially this is a great question. I've heard you talk about this earlier, Ollie, in a previous talk. When we look at so much of the psychedelics, at least to where I'm looking at, it seems that the military veterans are at the forefront, like PTSD, heroic hearts. There's all these veterans groups that are finding ways to deal with trauma. My friend Doc Askins wrote a book called The Anti-Hero's Journey, and he talks about things that

happen to them. But there does seem to be sort of a lack of talk about anti-war in the world of the veterans groups. I heard you speak about this, Ollie. And I would love, maybe you could introduce that, Ollie, and then I could get your response on that, Luke, just to see what your thoughts are on that. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah, I mean, thanks, thanks for the question. You know, I think I want to caveat this by saying that, you know, obviously there is a serious issue going on with veterans committing suicide. look at the statistics of people killed in active combat versus, you know, killing themselves. It's horrendous what's going on and we need ways to help people. I think with, you know, with everything with any desperate situation, health situation,

we need ways to help people. And for me, you know, I really do you see the benefit of MDMA particularly in helping with PTSD. I know people that were practitioners, underground practitioners in the 80s. who were treating veterans from the Gulf War, the first Gulf War, and there's a real lot of promise. But for me, I guess the difficult thing is when the narrative gets spoken about in terms of this net zero trauma, which is an acceptance that, okay, we can't get rid of the sources of trauma like war,

so we just have to find ways to mitigate them. And I suppose the psychedelic hippie idealist within me is still hammering home this point of like, hey, come on, togetherness, oneness, love and peace. Like, what's going on? You know, when I sat and, you know, had psychedelic experiences and thought about, you know, I'm in a very peaceful country relatively, you know, in the UK. And I think I try and kind of meditate on being in a war situation.

And it's impossible, you know, it's impossible to even conceive of a bomb dropping on your house. as impossible to think of being in combat. It's like my mind can't get there. So for me, it just naturally draws forward. So this is horrendous. How do we stop it? Yeah, I think it's a huge, huge topic, right? War, why do you mean the Gaginal War?

What is this all about? I think there's a massive political component to it. I think the modern mind has a way of blocking it out and don't think about what's going on. I think the United States, if you look at post-war II, let's just start there. You know, before that, we had a Department of War,

and now we have a Department of Defense. I think by any kind of stretch of information, we're war at war anywhere in the world, you know? And it's supposed to be like a defensive thing, right? So we had these illusions and games we played with ourselves and denied that reality of war even really happening or existing. And I think, most people at some level know there's a problem with veterans but it feels very far away

because I think the veteran population is fairly small I mean maybe bigger I don't I don't know any I don't know any veterans you see I had this conversation probably for the first time with some people in the psychedelic space and I was like do you guys actually know any like you know the people we're connected to in the US but in the UK I was like do you guys actually know any veterans. I can't find anyone I know who knows any veterans in the UK. Yeah, I know. And I think I met someone from Canada is the same thing. Like, you were the first veteran I met, you know? And so it's it's for in the United States, for example, you know, there's a few states that contribute the most military manpower to all

four branches, you know. So and so often you, there's, those, those, States might have that idea in the community, but most states don't, and they're a large military basis. The general population has a whole lot interaction with that. And then people come up back with PTSD. It's often natural with any kind of trauma to isolate. So they'll isolate and not be around people, you know. And then just like everything in Western society, like our denial with death, you know, death has always kept very far away at a hospital and things like that. Same thing with war, you know, like, either the American war machines all around the world

doing all kinds of crazy stuff. And the average person has no clue, no clue about it. And it's like you're talking about trying to imagine a bomb dropping your house or trying to imagine a war situation. Most Americans, unfortunately, never even tried to figure that out. It's just something on a screen, like a video game. And they can, you know, I think it's really sad. because you know like in ancient cultures you know war happened but it was very

visceral and no one could really deny it what was happening but and today like we have this denial of it and yeah I guess that's part of the question I'm not even sure how we like you said this this problem of war I think is something we definitely should talk about and work on I look at as much a very much a spiritual sickness when we have these wars going on and no one like talks about it kind of just the same thing with like the opiate epidemic right like we have these huge crises happening and the media like totally distracts us with something that's you know relatively irrelevant compared to war i think the war is the most important issue of our age and and no one even realizes that so

I'll say a few people actually think about it like you think about it, you know, think about what it means. I mean, really, people should think about what it means for a bomb to drop in their house, you know? And then you think of like American drone pilots dropping bombs and wedding parties and some far off country, you know, like, or even just having drones fun every country on a daily basis dropping bombs. Like, how would that make an American feel if that was happening to his country, you know? I think there's a important thing to think about it. Yeah. I think so many of us wish that things could change in like a leap of faith, but it's more like a slow unraveling.

You know what I mean? Like we're slowly sort of waking up with like one eye. Like this is painful, man. I was going to go back to sleep. You know, what about Billy the water skiing squirrel over here? Let's look at that for a minute. That's a little bit nicer, you know? But I think that perhaps like what we saw in the 60s, you know,

If past relevant behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, people beginning to wake up and be like, you know what? I don't think we should do this anymore. Wait, you know what? I have a lot of friends that are committing suicide. You know what? This ruined my relationship. You know, this ruined my kid's life or so-and-so just committed suicide. Like when it gets to this level where you can't ignore it anymore, that seems to be a time when people at the top get pretty nervous.

They're like, let's put this thing back, man. Let's get this genie back in the bottle. We got this guy Luke putting documentaries out. He's got this EEG machine. He's doing brain patterns. We got Ollie in the UK speaking about this. Like, you know, do you think that this sort of waking up is something that is, can cause people in positions of authority like insurance executives, politicians to become more nervous and start wanting to put psychedelics back in the bottle? Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I have personally been. reprimanded over LinkedIn from certain people for being too vocal, for commenting on people's posts. And, you know, particularly with the Israel-Gaza situation. And it was a thing where it was like very quickly, okay, I have to learn where the right audience is and understand that there's a lot of people in, you know, certainly in the UK where we have these power structures related to like the land of gentry, aristocracy, royal family that is in ties with, you know, British colonialism and the army and all of that stuff where, you know, we have a lot of wealthy landowners, like 1% of the landowners in the UK own 50. percent of the land. So it's like when you start to talk about these things, starting to talk about, you know, things which challenge certain power structures which people are connected to. People do get nervous and people, you know, I see a lot of gleeful talk about psychedelics in the UK and, you know,

critical inquiry can sometimes not be welcome in certain circles, particularly where we have got such an establishment, you know, whatever you want to call it, ruling class, this social class system that's so heavily entrenched, people often feel like you're ruffling feathers too much. And there's a lot of self-censorship that happens in the UK. You know, we get really worried, really nervous about saying the wrong thing, upsetting the wrong kind of people, having whatever opportunities taken away and you know some people just want to still have their seat at the table which is is fair enough and i i guess you know for me personally i've existed somewhat on the fringes and been a bit of a renegade i guess um me and a couple of friends

we started a psychedelic society at our university before there were any students psychedelic societies. So there was, you know, there's always this sense of like, hey, come on, we've got to press whatever the issue is. And now that psychedelics have become more normalized and mainstream, okay, what are the pressing issues within this normalized paradigm? It is actually how, you know, we look at these ideas of oneness and togetherness that everyone espouses. And ultimately, if it makes some people feel uncomfortable, you know, I think possibly it's gone too far to maybe put the genie back in the bottle, but certainly it's being regulated in, in certain ways, a certain ways of accessing things that people would prefer, you know, so we have, for example,

the organisation's psilocybin access rights in the UK. It's not called magic mushroom access rights. You know, there's certain narratives in certain ways that people want to steer things in order to understand how are we going to access them. And if you rock the boat too much, you know, I mean, I went along to, like, a swanky event with Paul Stamets, and I started talking about mushrooms and aliens, and people are like, you know. I would love to hear about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's that, yeah, that's maybe a conversation for another time, but, you know, yeah.

Yeah, I think, like, well, there's always been power structures throughout history, right? And I think if you look at like there's a cycle of civilizations where that power structure starts becoming corrupt, decadent, and non-responsive to the people. And the people are like, hey, this is an interesting thing. Something's going on here. And yeah, it's very easy for like, even if you look at like 1984 in the Brave New World, like give people so much. and which might be alcohol and sports and things like this. You take a psychedelic and like, wait, you start wondering things. Every one time I took one and like, what are these things called mortgages?

It's ridiculous. Why would I pay this $120 for one, you know, paid to a bank? You know, it's a silly. It's a thought. But I'm like, when you start thinking about like, this is kind of ridiculous, you know, like what's going on here? And enough people start thinking about that. And, you know, the power structure might get started really worried.

like what people stop paying their taxes or you know because it's a small minority ruling over a much larger majority and in the end all their power is really illusion it's really the masters of illusion where they trick us with different kinds of methods and they you talk about like thoughts like some things are allowed to say and some things are not allowed to say so we self-censor ourselves because they have this illusion of power and we even have a sense of things we're not supposed to say think about that right like thinking about that power structure we're like we're self-censoring what we're saying and our thoughts like wow that's that's a lot of power and i think that you know some people might even go on conspiracy theories like this is this is a thing that's developed

over a long time but i think we just look at this i didn't even need that like this is something like um you know it's not healthy for us to will not speak our minds and i think that the more we do who empowers us. And for people that wonder, I think the power system is very, very concerned. It has been for a long time. If you look at like Jay Edgar Hoover, like he was wired to happen everybody, you know,

like the FBI United States. Like, you know, like there's no one he didn't try to like observe and see what they're doing. Like extreme paranoia, what the masses are doing. And like, you know, for them like anti-war activists and civil rights leaders. And I think that same paranoia exists in power structure today. and their constant effort to divert people's attention to things that they can control, right?

So I mean, I find that. Yeah. Yeah. Just the last thing. So say for like the abortion issue in the United States, and I might really say one thing or another, but like if you have everyone focused on that issue, you might not be watching what the CIA is doing in this country

and the bombs are dropping here, here, here, which they're okay with that. right they don't want you to know about that issue right so when their media's talking always be thinking of what they're not talking about that's what I try to do yeah it's a great point what were you going to say allie I mean I think you know just going on from your point about power structures and control and I think it's interesting to see where psychedelic culture has gone and certainly in terms of you know my personal interest into psychedelics was through music, was through the kind of, you know,

that hippie culture that is bit out there and quite creative and not necessarily that controlled. And now it feels like the overwhelming focus is on psychedelic science or therapeutic applications or speaking in quite limited terms and almost like psychedelics have. have been disarmed somewhat. It's almost like they're a little bit boring, they're a little bit lame,

you've now got DARPA talking about, you know, can we create psychedelics that don't give people a bad trip? And it's like, you know, people I know, bad trips can be really useful. It's really useful moments that teach you a lot

and help you understand your mind and give you that real power over your mind is having that difficult experience. And if we want to just carefully control and make it all, nice and fluffy and marketable into a product. And I feel like it's going to just get really dangerous. And there'll be some snapback.

There'll be some, I don't know, spirit of the psychedelics will come back and bite people in the ass, maybe. Yeah. I see it. I think it's so key with this thing. Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead.

Carry on. Just that whole thought, like, I forget sometimes, because I haven't, you know, prove. the time and in the jungle doing like ayahuasca the shaman I forget like people talk about like yeah we'll just put this thing in a pill and then like don't have a bad trip I'm like whoa like this is wild like I mean I think it takes away the whole essence of it because like especially

shamanism right like you are going to be like part of psychedelics and shamanism especially you will be challenged as part of the experience you will be challenged and by far some of my best experiences have been my most challenging because that's been learning about yourself the most. And I think some of it's just the Western culture. We want to put a thing in a little pill. You just take it. I mean, they might even want to put like the compound of the pill.

So there's no psychedelic effect just so you can supposedly heal from it. You know, this really misses the point of healing at a spiritual level because healing at a spiritual level, it looks at a really a shamanic level. You have to face your demons. You have to face your challenges. You might have to face sides by yourself that you do not like. And if the Western model tries to avoid that, then the healing won't take place.

That's all the Western model does is try to avoid that. Like, they're like, we would like the, like, experience, but without any of the negative kind of things. Like, have you guys seen some of the research where they're trying to take, like, the difficult parts of the trip out of the pill? Like, you have people studying this to, like, we want the transformative effects. We're not so much interested in the hallucinogenic effects. Can we figure this out? And you have people spending millions of dollars on this. And I remember researching and being like, what the hell are you talking about?

Like you can't separate these two things. But I guess on the underlying part of it, they're like, well, what about people that are, you know, that are on their deathbed or maybe that's not even the excuse. It just seems absurd to me to try and eliminate the difficult part of the trip out of the trip. That's like saying I want to have the ability to grow without any trauma. Can you fix that for me? And then you start looking at like nepotism and our leadership and how that kind of echoes. I was going to put my kid involved over there. Like in some ways, it echoes the world that we live in.

And maybe you could say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Like we don't want people to get hurt. We want them to have the best possible life without getting hurt. But when you try to nerve everything and protect people, you're really limiting who they can be. You're really limiting them from fighting their. demons and seeing their potential and moving forward. On the topic of of where psychedelics are today, I want to give you my thoughts and then hear what you guys have to say. I feel like we're in the late 50s, early 60s. Like this thing is trying desperately to be contained in this medical container.

And there's some people that are like, man, if we can wrap our arms around it centralized, we can make a lot of money, man. This would be awesome. But you already see like the birth of the new merry pranksters with people like Dennis Walker coming out and like making these Instagram accounts and blowing up to like 10,000 people and then getting shut down coming back getting 5,000, 8,000. Like there is this culture emerging out of it. And I think that maybe in the next 10 years, it's not obtuse to think that maybe you have these day glow Tesla school buses rolling around with new electric Kool-Aid acid tests happening. And you already see the protests on college campuses. Like it's already bursting at the seams. I don't know. Is that too far out?

What do you guys think about this world of psychedelics, beginning to blow up into a 60-style sort of creative experience? Yeah, I mean, I've noticed it being a psychedelic musician in the UK, being in the, I guess, the wider genre of psych, of psychedelic rock, which is really is one of the, you know, massive growing genres in the UK at the moment. There's a lot of, there's a franchise. going around called Syke Fest, which takes place in different cities. So there's this explosion and there's a crossover happening of the heavy metal scene with the psych scene. So there's

people getting into psychedelics in a cultural sense in something of like a visceral sense. You know, the festival scene is quite big in the UK. And I think that has come hand in hand with the academic stuff, but maybe through kind of like convergent thinking. Because I, you know, I said, there's not necessarily those people that I meet in the music scene that are also going to psychedelic conferences. But, you know, I know a lot of people who are trippers who are heads, you know, that are very much into their psychedelics and almost like the trickle-down legitimization that has happened, I think has had some useful effect.

Whilst also kind of pigeonholing the research into science, it's also helped like people to have more conversations with their families. And I can quite comfortably talk to my family, be like, yeah, I'm in a psychedelic rock band, you know, and it's like, cool, you know. Yeah, what do your thoughts, Luke? Yeah, I think it's very, there's a lot of being parts to it, right? So in Peru, I tried Iowa to go the first time, like, over 10 years ago. And I was 28 the time.

I was like one of the oldest people in the group. And it was all like young adventurers that were going down. And now we have, like, doctors and lawyers and, you know, people and the like looking for meaning. It's much more widespread now. So I think it's a good thing because more people have access to it. But it's also kind of like people are often not engaging with it in the same way. So now we have like before I went down, like you kind of just were on your own. You had to figure things out.

And I have these huge ayahuasca retreats. They're like luxury resorts. And people almost look at it as kind of like, yeah, I'm going on vacation. I'm going to do this thing. And it's kind of like I don't even call it, but it's kind of lifestyle choice, right? Instead of like I'm going down to be like challenge or something. that like no one even knows about right because no one even knew about it horribly when I went down and now you hear in a pop culture a lot um so I think you kind of like this tension between two

different things that are happening at the same time and the same time you have this legal fight for it happening but it's been very much um put in the psychological model and the mental health model which I think has this legitimacy but it's taken away from the real shamanic model and traditional model and tribal model like our ancestors would have it. So you put it in a mental health model and psychologize it, I think we're missing out on the true nature of shamanism, the true nature of consciousness, because we're more than psychological beings.

We're also spiritual beings. And for me, plant medicines and shamanism is so intertwined for me that I've seen such amazing things and amazing change and really this the magic of the world like comes to life like clearly like all the universe comes alive and I think it's a lot different thing like oh this guy's got to take mushrooms for his trauma you know like our ancestors even think of trauma in that way and I think you be careful how we from my perspective I like keeping that traditional a traditional way of doing things and I think the modern I think there's this tendency because the modern culture

just psychologizes everything. It's just kind of how it's done. I think we all keep in like that spiritual aspect, the magical aspect, and realize we don't know everything. You know, realize that we don't know all the answers. So I see these tensions on both sides,

but I'm really hopeful, and I'm really excited about the future because I think it's, I think it will continue that way. I think you'll have the one side that medicalizes it, and the other side that's kind of like the artists and the people that are, doing mushrooms in their lawn looking for UFOs and you know like like doing for adventure i mean

i think we have to have like that like that open heart and that mind of children and realize like this universe is so beautiful and we have to go into and that with that kind of yeah the lightness the lightness of heart i think that's what to describe it that's a really um interesting point because often i've found myself grappling with ideas of psychedelic gatekeeping and where, you know, you said this, this, the way in which people are engaging with it, you know, it doesn't feel like they're engaging with it in these ways which, on the traditional aspects of psychedelics. And then, you know, it's this whole thing of, does everyone need to take psychedelics? Does everyone need to actually have this direct experience in order to have that,

healing you know if on like a societal level could there be enough of us taking psychedelics that it it tips the scales and then changes these different structures and it seems like it's very much this capitalist way of like no I've got to go and do it I don't believe you unless I've had it and it's you know funny when you mentioned it like a holiday when I was in Akitos and I was at a hostel and someone literally just off a list yet we're going to a reserve for three nights then we're going to see the river dolphins, and then we're going to take ayahuasca.

And I was like, and they were, you know, they're like early 20s. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. I was like, have you taken ayahuasca before? They're like, no, no. I was like, you know, brilliant. I hope you have a beautiful experience. But yeah, it just, it didn't seem this like,

you know, I'm going to take ayahuasca and, you know, it's going to be, it was just like, yeah, you know, let's go. all right fucking oh all right more oh okay for it but

and that's the thing it's like I don't want to get into that because you get into that and then you start to become judgmental you get into ego state where you're just like do you not

do not know the veracity of the experience are about to undertake little girl you know and it's like well you need to really check that stuff and be like

people are going to have the experiences they're going to have and and ultimate you know when I've been interacting with some people from the corporate space you kind of have corporate burnout. It's like they see the magic, you know,

they see that spark and they're like, oh, what is that? You know, I really want some of that. And maybe historically, you know, I guess like hippie subculture is just like, yeah, whatever square, you know, go away in your suit. And that's not useful because it just creates more division and it's like, as you said,

how can we come at it with that open heart? you know, for me, the Wachuma experience was so profound because it, it was that heart opening experience that allowed me to be less cynical and realize that, yeah, okay, if you've been in the world of finance for 30 years, that's, that's not you. That's the thing that you've been told that you need to do. And actually you, your spirit is this like holy, amazing, wonderful thing that needs to be nurtured. and, you know, doing stuff like inner child work and coming at situations where it's like, hey, if I was, you know, the inner child within me is meeting the inner child within you,

that kind of egoless expression where you just want to connect. It's almost like that pre-egoic state where you see, you know, like four-year-old kids and they're like, hey, you're a kid, I'm a kid, let's be kids and play. And we really do forget that because we've got to be serious adults, doing the things, paying the mortgages, all this stuff. And, you know, the beauty of psychedelics is that, that wonder, that connection. And if we can bring other people into that wondering connection, then it's like, yeah, come on, let's get everyone on board.

And then hopefully it's like the people who are, have a lot of influence and an ability to make change and resources. Like, let's get them on board as well. And hopefully it will kind of expand. Yeah. In some ways, it sounds like a giant right of passage ceremony. You know what I mean by that? it seems like, like we spoke about adaptogens earlier, but perhaps the people that find themselves called the psychedelics through whatever means become changed in a way and then they become the

catalyst for change for everybody else. You know what I mean? And like if you just look at it as sort of this ritualistic that happens every maybe hundred years or something like that, you know, we do have this significant group of baby boomers that are this giant generation that are dying in a way that's kind of unprecedented. Like there's such a large group of baby boomers. You could argue that so much of the trauma that's happening are the unrealized dreams of these people dying, just scratching for one more, one more term in office. You know, if I can just get this, if I can just get this part right to pass, man, I will

fulfill my destiny. And then you have this younger generation. It's like, I don't care about any of that. That's stupid. Why are we funding your stuff? Like, haven't you guys done enough? And it's sort of this tension between these generations that's happening. And I can't help but think the absence of.

rituals and rites of passage is something that's been gutted from at least a western world like you know when i hear luke talk about some of these ceremonies like i i find it like wow i wonder what it's like to watch the elder pass down knowledge to somebody else in this ritual ceremonial setting and we have so many people and it seems to me that in the western world we have people that are refusing to pass down information like that's a recipe for war and destruction right could it be a ritual ceremony on a bigger level that we're going through this this this this this right of passage maybe or is that too grand of an idea yeah i think right to passage are huge i think it was like the first time in history we even had them i think it's extremely damaging um so many ways because

we all fundamentally need that i think like people often will do it in the wrong ways um you know i mean i think i went to the military for my own right of passage and it was what it was but i think you often like get into like real destructive behaviors to try to like So you haven't had this right of passage. And so you look at your ancient traditions, they always had this right of passage. And I think it's interesting because you're talking about like how to like change this happen. And can a small group change the bigger group? I'm reminded of the story I read.

I forget which book, but all these women took LSD to like Eastern Coast, like East Coast establishment women. And they won't LSD and they realized they want to stop the Vietnam War in the 60s. So their goal was this group of women is to marry like powerful. politicians in generals and get them to try LSD so they would wake up the follies of Vietnam and you have this idea we can just get this out there because the right people we can do it and you talk about like well you know if enough people do this we need everybody I don't think we need everybody and in fact I don't think everyone should do these things I always say people should be called to it and a person in the jungle that was just kind of dry like a tour I'm like well you know like

this person might be really challenged. And if you're not prepared mentally for that, they can be a lot of, you know, they can have like big challenges. And I know people that prepare for it the most, like a year. I've met people to prepare for a year for the first ayahuasca, and they get some of the most things out of it. And this kind of going on to the same thing.

The Temple of Lusis in Greece was around for a thousand years. I'm not sure what the ceremony was, but there's some kind of psychedelic event. But anyone knows anyone, ancient world, went there to do it. So like Cicero and Plato and so it gives you a whole insight I think of like these historians

that write about the ancient world but have no clue that all these people had a psychedelic experience and that gives you a whole different insight into that world and who these people were and if that historian has never had a psychedelic experience, he's missing a whole big thing of what happened.

And yeah, I think this culture and this intermerion and I think it's very fascinating. What's your thoughts on that, Ollie? Yeah, I mean, I've been getting into this stuff a bit. It's such a kind of complicated thing. You know, I think a lot in terms of this country in the UK where, you know, the sense of indigenous connection to the land is quite tenuous.

and we've had, you know, the Romans, the Vikings, the Anglo-Saxons, all these different cultures come in, and then we've had a royal family that has, you know, taken away the land and prevented access to, you know, sacred sites in this country. So we really lack a right of passage. I think it's why the UK might historically have so many problems with drugs. and alcohol and violence and this need to establish itself. And, you know, there's a lot of men in this country who have a lot of anger and emotional problems and real problems with alcohol and drugs. And, you know, I've met men who have real kind of issues with absent fathers

and have found, like, you know, getting into gang violence or just general, you know, getting, you know, to street fights and this kind of thing, it does become a right of passage. And I see a lot of those men, those types of men ending up in men circles where they're looking for that spiritual connection, where they're looking for something which is in line with nature because they're realizing that like this whole thing of being a man, the macho bravado, that's not it. that's, you know, they're looking for something that is like that. And we really lack that. And I think I'm seeing more of these types of people entering into the psychedelic space

who come from quite tough, you know, macho backgrounds, where the right of passage might have been going to something like the army or, you know, joining a boxing gym or something like this to prove themselves as a man. and I think it's, you know, there are ways in which we can do the rights of passage, which aren't necessarily about like proving yourself as a man, but actually about engaging with the land and honoring it. And then in doing so, you respect it. And hopefully then you create better systems which work for everyone

because you've all had this initiation into something, whatever it is, you know. It's interesting that you bring up. Yeah, go ahead, Luke. No, I was just saying that's kind of what I tell people too, like, hey, come challenge yourself with, so we have a retreat, we have martial arts, we have hiking, like come challenge yourself with ayahuasca and a hike in the Andes Mountains. And, you know, like this is a way to like healthily challenge yourself instead of like drugs or gangs or different things where people can get into. And I think, you know, you know, boxing the military are probably the healthier some of that things they can get into. I mean, but yeah, like really, if you you have a spiritual challenge. Most initiation, traditionally were a spiritual challenge. We become part of that group,

part of the tribe, part of the community. Like you were, you're reborn into a full being as an adult, as a man or woman, to have an initiation, the transformation process. So it's something to think about importantly

that it's that that we need that. I agree. So, you know, when I think about initiation, I think about storytelling. And like, you know,

you can look back at, you know, choose your mythos mythology of the hero's journey or, you know, the sirens calling Odysseus to the rocks or Luke Skywalker, whatever your story might be, you know, there's these great stories that have happened throughout time. And it seems that we're at a time where storytelling has turned into story selling. And when I think about like all that narrative out there, it's like a profound lack of meaning and purpose. And of course there's going to be anger. If you're doing something that's

meaningless or purposeless. Like, you know, if I work at a job for 26 years and when I got to the top of the corporate ladder, I realized I was against the wrong wall. You know, what do you do? I look over the wall and I'm like, this is bullshit. This is not what it was said. You know, there's the meaning. There's the purpose.

And when you lose that, when you, now you're talking about losing identity. Like what now you really need that spiritual nature. Then you're searching like, holy cow, man, I'm in a crisis right now. Like, you're at this particular age. Where is? where do I find it? Like I feel like that on some level is, is what psychedelics can be about.

And if people can learn that through psychedelics at an earlier age to find purpose and meaning in life, we're way ahead of the game. Like I feel like we're in a crisis of meaning and, and story, lack of stories. Like, what do you think? Luke, like you've had one foot in both worlds, like living in this story of the Western world

and then moving down and participating in the story of transformation. and how does that what I said resonate with you? Well, I think it's a really great insight. I many things to say on that. If you look at ancient traditions like the gods or D.S. Like these are stories to emulate and to immodel souls out there. It gave us a firm idea of like who we were. And those stories reached out to the past because those stories were 12

for generations that linked us from our ancestors to the present. So it gives a huge identity of who we are. These stories gave us. identity, these stories. Now we have like mass culture, popular culture, which totally takes away those stories. And also I think it makes us

easy to control. When we don't have a story, we don't have a background, we're just kind of consumers. The power structure, it's much you just control people that don't know your people who they are. Yeah, I think the power of story is so important to existence.

More things I was going to say that I forget. But But yeah, it's a really great point. Yeah, the crisis and narration, Ollie, what do you think? I mean, you know, that's a real, you know, I've been speaking to people more in terms of, you know, doing psychedelics with a view to honoring ancestors to honoring that story to finding that link. And, you know, I found personally when, I am going through a challenging experience and I might be emotional, there might be floods of tears. Sometimes I wonder, well, is that necessarily my trauma?

Is it trauma from my family or the ancestors or the land or whatever it is? And finding a way to weave my experience into a wider narrative, into a story, then it allows that sense of belonging. It allows that sense of safety, almost that like you are held by the wider narrative, you are held by the ancestors and the spirits. It allows you to then connect with the land. You know, it's, you know, there's people I know that have a favourite tree, you know, and they go and they sit

with their favorite tree and it's like these ways of conceptualizing where we actually are, weaving ourselves into this wider tapestry, I think just makes us nicer people. It makes us, it makes us step out of ourselves. We're less wound up energetically. We're actually expanding ourselves. We're tapping into the like ancestral worldwide web. Probably, you know, it's like, that's probably what the mycelium are doing. The mycelium are tapping us into this wider narrative. and for me, you know, it hammers home that point of, of this oneness of, it is all you, you know, this intersubjective experience of the one cosmos, you know,

and then honoring that, again, it just allows me to be a lighter person, having a softer ego, being able to engage with anyone and everyone, you know, And that's where I find, like, the benefit of psychedelics. And then, you know, as you say, Luke, it's like you, you, you aren't so easily controlled because you're not, you're not lost. You're not like, oh, well, if I, you know, fill my life with X, Y, Z of all the things that are, you know, preordained by the capitalist society, then, then everything's fine. And actually, if you can weave that narrative of, like, hey, what's the significance of this,

you know, 150 year old oak tree or something like that that's being. here and it's seen all of these things and it's and it's still here like what's the significance of the resilience what can we learn from these different aspects of that tapestry and like I'm very jealous of the Aboriginal educational system in Australia where it looks at things in this Aboriginal dream time it's not it's like you're telling a story and through that story you're gaining so much knowledge, it's not this didactic, sitting in a class from, you know, oh, I know that because the teacher told me so, it's more I know this because I am woven into the tapestry of the ancestors. And if I engage with the plant and fungal medicines,

you know, that is the technological interface by which I can talk to the ancestors. And, yeah, I find that belonging. Yeah, I think story has like this, um, it's the most powerful way to communicate anything in the human consciousness. We're designed for oral communication. This was done for millennia upon a millennia before the written word. So there's something in us, that's the most powerful way to transfer information is to a story. It's the most powerful way. And I remember what I was going to say, too, is to talk about these stories have these deep archetypes inside of us.

And Carl Young really revolutionized our thought when we think about this. So these stories reoccur over and over again, the hero's journey and these myths, like these myth idea of myth, we have no idea where myths come from and we kind of use it as like an ad hominem today, oh, the myth, but like myth with a capital M, like your deep structures to who we are.

And you mentioned Star Wars, I kind of chuckle because I think Star Wars used the archetypes. The original Star Wars movies used the archetypes very effectively and it resonating with people. And then when modern media or modern Hollywood deviates those archetypes, those movies flop and people like, what the heck is that? But if you stick with those archetypes, even a new model, even a new story, it resonates to the human soul.

It resonates with who you are. And I think Star Wars is actually a really good example of that. Yeah. Yeah, I think it speaks to the idea of mysticism, too. You know, when you sit under an old tree and you begin to imagine how long that tree has been there, what it's seen, the lessons it's learned, you can almost begin to learn the lessons from that tree. You think about, whoa, I bet you this has had some drought.

I wonder what it did. Well, it obviously survived. How did it survive? Well, these other plants around there. Like, you start seeing the story unfold in front of you in ways that are just earth-shattering. It's almost like there's this bigger language desperately trying to communicate to us. And I can't help, but when I

talk to both of you guys, get this sort of admiration for the mystic tradition. I know that you have both have your own relationship with it. And I thought maybe we could talk about that a little bit. All right, let's start with you. You've got a background in mysticism. What do you think?

Yeah, so, I mean, I think that's, you know, really interesting in terms of like the, the mystical connection. And with that, I, spirit, I guess. I've studied a little bit of Nosticism. And I come from a Jewish background. and I've recently been reading some stuff connected to Judaism, which is more similar to the Gnostic traditions of this idea of the godliness within. You know, when we talk about the entheogenesis, it's actually it's not just you are taking something and experiencing God,

but actually you are bringing the godliness into the situation. and, you know, some of the traditional prayers in Judaism where you're blessing the bread or blessing the candles and the English translation might say, thank you God. It's actually, you know, the Hebrew is more about, it's like, blessed be, the godliness of the situation that is occurring right now and actually the eminence, you know, as you were talking about that tree, you know,

I was picturing it. I was thinking I was really visually just like, yeah, I was there, you know, in the English countryside, just sitting under an oak tree. And with these kind of experiences which can be infused, you know, more powerfully with plant medicines, it does hammer home that engaging with the spirit that's infused with it, you know, I've explored the Shinto traditions, which are really like, it's not just like general spirit, but it's like there's the oak tree spirit, there's the river spirit,

there's the little forest spirits, then there's the grand spirit of the forest, which is like the overarching spirit. And these really useful ways of engaging with it and honoring it, which I think are really powerful. They are powerful. It's,

it begins to think about the ideas of, before I go up on some other round, let me push it over to Luke here. Like you have, You have an incredible relationship with shamanic learning and being around shamanism and the mystic tradition. Like, what do you think about when we start talking about the word mysticism and mystical? Well, I think there's so many good points to bring the Shinto tradition, this idea that everything's alive around you, an animism. This is the natural state for human beings through forever that the river has contested this, that the trees have consciousness, that there's elementals and spirits all around us.

And with a modern mind, we kind of dismissed that. But if everyone believe that all around the world for all of history, is that so ridiculous? You know, and maybe there's a lot more to that than we think. And, you know, I'm from a northern European background, so I'm really into the ruins and the old gods. And the ruins mean mystery. They mean esoteric. They mean a secret knowledge. And we study these ruins, like there's so much to them.

You know, like the idea of exploring mystery. history that esoteric is this beautiful thing it's beautiful um life endeavor to do and you know i think of a token who bar you borrowed from like well you read he's immersed in the old sagas and myths and the edas and everything else it came through in his work and then you read i read token and i'm like wow yeah speaks to me a certain level and then i'm in the jungles in the amazon i think to myself man if Bill or Frodo kept going a thousand miles south, there'd be where I'm at with pink dolphins on the Amazon river. I'm a shaman, you know?

And yeah, I really think that the mystical is really around us all the time. And then like the our job or maybe the job of like certain individuals, each tribe has that connection to see beyond that veil, to see the double meaning. Like that might be. rock or that might be a sun and then at the same time to realize like that has a spirit to it and that has something special to it and to understand that and when you're sitting there's that tree like to realize that tree is fueling your energy and you're feeling his energy and just like we do

with humans that there's a exchange going on there so yeah just for me it's about joining the journey and join the mystery of all of it yeah i love that it's interesting to just take a moment and realize how therapeutic it can be, especially when we're overwhelmed to realize that we're part of the whole. You know, it's so difficult sometimes when our personal problems become so overwhelming that you just want to break down. And sometimes all that's left is just to give it to the tree outside. You know what I mean?

Well, it's been there for 120 years. I can't get through this, you know. But like there's something so profound about how beautiful that. is because our journeys can become overwhelming when we start carrying the weight of the uncertain nature of the future like that's a lot for anybody to try to hold on so i'm going to try to let me just try to wrap my arms around this uncertainty principle here like it's it's crazy i feel like we're we're at this crisis and i'm so thankful to get to pick your guys brains on it and stuff i got another question coming in from the chat it says what can the principles of mycology teaches about building a

political system that prioritizes symbiosis over competition. Why don't you take that one to start off, Ollie? Yeah, I mean, this is, you know, an amazing question. I think really, just to be quite blunt, we would need to develop systems that are based on anarchistic principles, where we don't have a centralized point of authority and power, where we, you know, we understand where, you know, if we think about the concept of grains which are inoculated and then put into a substrate, then everyone in there, you know, if we were to have a system of governance that was based on mycelium, then it wouldn't be, you know, we would have to totally reimagine the political structure where it's not top down, where we have more

trust and openness and honesty. and yeah in feeling that okay people can be these inoculated pieces of grain in different areas of the substrate and if we are all operating on this open level then we can find ways where we communicate and we're sharing resources so I think you know in terms of devolution into local governments that kind of thing would be really useful but you'd need to be quite careful, I think, in terms of, in terms of resource. I think, yeah, non-hierarchical structures where you're not, you're not restricted by a certain time goal. I think this is the thing.

You know, when you're growing mushrooms, when you've got mycelium in a cupboard and you're colonizing some grain, you're, if you keep looking or you ask, oh, how long is it going to take? And it's like, it would take as long as it takes. Now, if you had that in a, you know, a cabinet meeting in the UK and someone's like, we've got these targets, we need to hit them by 2027. And the person goes, yeah, I don't know about that. It will just take as long as it takes, you know, because of the way in which, you know, the class structure is where it's all dependent on results and key performance indicators, how do we know if we're doing well? Well, we've achieved this by this time, you know, net zero by 2030 or whatever it is.

So I think if we can get rid of this idea of target driven goals and look at what is the, what is, look more in terms of, um, systems and outcomes, you know, like if we look at the, the slime mold, which was put into a model of the Tokyo subway system and found out the most efficient way to do it. And that's what the Tokyo subway system is, is modeled on. So it's like, if we can start modeling systems. you know, there might be ways we can really do this in practical ways, looking at resources when it comes to food and energy and, yeah, try and create like literal physical structures and government departments which are replicating these principles. I mean, it's a really big question and I think has many layers,

but I think certainly the principles in terms of energetic sharing of resources and even when there's competing ideas, you know, as I mentioned before, with the competing strains of fungi, you don't necessarily all have to agree on the same thing politically or philosophically. You can just realize that, hey, we are all this organism and actually all this stuff surrounding politics

and philosophy and identity politics is a distraction. It's not really necessary. It's kind of stuff we've been holding on to for edges. If we can get rid of some of that and try and form new identities into this collective, you know, as we've been talking about that therapeutic realisation of becoming part of the whole and try and maybe get our political leaders, I don't know, taking Lions Main and Cordyceps and not feeling so stressed out. You know, I really do think like, you know, especially in the UK where we have so many

stressed out leaders that come from these, you know, upper class. systems where they would have gone to boarding school and not had connection to their parents and really, you know, they're coming from places of trauma, you know, and it's like, how can we help our leaders to say, you know what, it's all right and not feel like there's this scarcity, you know, coming into these ideas of abundance and being able to share and then we don't have to fight wars because actually there is enough to go around. Yeah, it's, it's really well said. I look at the political structure over here in the United States, and I have so many of the similar ideas,

and you can't help, but, I mean, you get angry, but then for me comes empathy of like, man, these are just human beings. There's just people, and I don't know what kind of cards they've been dealt. I have no idea what's going on in their family life. It doesn't look too good from this angle over here. You know, maybe, Luke, you have done,

I think both of you have done incredible things. One thing that I noticed about you, Luke, is that you have found a place, to bloom. Like, you've, you've came to this new location and you found not only who you are, but what you love. And it's thriving, man. I know it wasn't easy to set up and start doing, but do you think that that's an answer for some people is like, hey, look, if you're not satisfied with this particular area, you can go somewhere and make it your home and begin to bloom where you're planted out there. Is that, is that a strategy that you used, or is that something

advice you would give to people who may be searching? Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, talking about these political systems, I kind of felt the United States was oppressive to me, just the political system and just, you know, like, it's how everyone thinks and sprawling suburbia and this idea of a 95 job and, you know, all these things to just take for granted and like, I just want to do something else.

I just, like, want to figure something else out. And for me, I was looking for deep healing because my PTSD was so bad, so I tried ayahuasca. But in that experience, I'm like, wait, why do I try to live down here and just figure it out, you know? That seems much more healthy for me. I felt better, you know, more connected to the earth, more people than the land, more freedom in a different place.

So I made that work. So I think for a lot of people, just traveling, experience different cultures, just even a little bit. I think most Americans only have passports. So if you just like travel a little bit, to see a little bit of the world, it'll give you a whole different perspective. And then for me, yeah, I felt like I was in a world I could remake myself and make something that was never really done before. I didn't have the constraints of the political system like the United States or UK or psychedelics are illegal, especially at the time.

You know, and all of a sudden, like, oh, I can start doing research in this part of the world, right? And then I can start, you know, doing studies and getting this out there, get this knowledge out there. I think that kind of anarchist philosophy that all he was talking about like, you know, we have this idea that we have to have these governments and these superstructures and there's like all of a sudden like you guys say like millions of bureaucrats and I'm going to, I don't know they do, you know, but we think we have to have this system because we had for so long, but maybe we don't need these systems and maybe we should be free to do what we want and all of a sudden like a healthier system can like naturally emerge from the ground up. I think these are like conversations,

maybe we should start having because to be honest all western systems aren't sustainable right now they're all extremely in debt every politician borrows from the future and the future children are to pay for these things this is nuts and this is like the tip of the iceberg or what's happening in these political systems and like you i can have sympathy for these for these people in this power structure because i think they're bored into it in the same way but also i think that it's kind of concerning when you consider that uk united states russia china all these like mass nuclear arsenals right and one little off thing and one of these leaders heads can like one little thing one little psychological disturbance can lead to a really terrible situation to say the

least so i think we should be open to all possibilities and yeah why not you know like i can talk about fungree for all the but why not you know look at what something else is doing why not you know like maybe that maybe that is a good idea who's to say it's not um i think we should just be open-minded everything Yeah, I agree. Both of you gentlemen, I have a fascinating, this is such a good time, and I feel like we just barely scratched the surface right here. Two hours flew by like it was nothing. Like it was two minutes. And I have, I probably have like another 25 questions in here, but I got hard out coming up.

So maybe we can come back and do it again. Like, I really am thankful for both of your guys' time. And while we have a little bit of time left, let's start with Luke. Luke, would you be so kind is to tell people where they can find you, what you have coming up and what you're excited about, and then we'll shift to Ollie after that. Go ahead, Luke. Yeah, so just this last year, we're running retreats in Peru with ayahuasca and Machuma and brain mapping and kind of adventure, because I love the ideas, have an adventure with retreat. I stay at the same space. We do mountain hiking and stuff like that.

So the best way to reach me, I have two websites. One's called T.WAS Awakening, T.Waz, as in the Rune, the Nordic Rune. And another one called Neuroenlightenment, which is kind of more stresses the neurofeedback side of things, the brain training, TWA's awakenings are adventure retreats. And both those emails, TWA's Awaken and Neuro Enlightenment. And the big thing we have coming up with on an exact date, we have a documentary that's finished, and it's an amazing work. I'm really happy about it.

And it'll be probably released here in the next couple months. So thank you. Yeah, fantastic. Ollie, you have got some incredible speeches that you've been given. You've been doing quite a bit of touring. And I was hopeful that maybe you could shed some light on what you're excited about, where people can find you and what you've been up to, man. Yeah, thank you.

So I'm doing a talk tomorrow night online for the psychedelic society, which is a UK institution on the topic of psychedelics and social justice. So I'm going to be doing more talks on this topic and also engaging more within mycelial structures and ways of thinking. So collaborating with different organisations, like I mentioned, Mycelium Hub in Sweden, to be doing some events with them, holding some retreats next year and doing some intensive kind of emergence events. So bringing people together at mycelium hub and, you know, finding ways to mirror this mycelial way of working and see what arises naturally. And I'm working with trades associations in the UK, liaising with different functional mushroom companies.

So I do consulting for functional mushrooms, helping organizations and individuals understand how functional mushrooms can benefit them. So looking at things like the functional mushrooms, of the workplace, but also looking at the functionality of the human system. So you can find me at the fungi consultant.com and also Oli at the fungi consultant. Also my link tree, which is link tree for slash Olly Gembash. And you can find articles and talks that I've done, music as well. As I said, I'm a psychedelic musician.

So that's really exciting. We've got a new album coming out next year, my band Codex Seraphini, which is all intertwined with topics surrounding the spirit, the new mar, the things which are connecting us to our inner nature. And we, you know, we like to express ourselves within this wider psychedelic context and be champions, I guess, for kind of more wilder psychedelic expression, and psychedelic culture, you know, trying to draw conversations more towards that artistic, creative side of things where it's not just, you know, scientists.

So, yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, gentlemen, hang on briefly afterwards. I want to talk to you both, but to everybody within the sound of my voice, I know I got tons of other podcasters to listen to you, Doc.

This, gosh, damn. Clint, Doc, reach out to both these guys. incredible individuals. Ladies and gentlemen, within the sign of my voice, go down to the show notes. Check out both of these gentlemen. Reach out to them. If you have any questions, if you enjoyed it, reach out to them. And that's all we got for today. Ladies and gentlemen, Aloha. Thank you.