Trump's Trials - Delays, delays, delays

Episode Date: January 27, 2024

This week on Trump's Trials, host Scott Detrow is joined by NPR Justice Correspondent Carrie Johnson. In this episode we take a step back to look at where the four criminal cases former President Donald Trump is facing currently stand. There's the classified documents case in Florida, the hush money case involving Stormy Daniels in New York, the Georgia election interference case and the Jan. 6th federal election interference case.Topics include: - Updates on all of Trump's criminal cases - Trial date speculation - What comes next Follow the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for new episodes each Saturday.Sign up for sponsor-free episodes and support NPR's political journalism at plus.npr.org/trumpstrials.Email the show at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

91 criminal charges, 4 indictments, but trial dates? They're uncertain. From NPR, this is Trump's Trials. I'm Scott Detrow. This is a persecution. He actually just stormed out of the courtroom. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Over the last couple of weeks, we have focused a lot on the January 6th federal election interference case. And this week, things have been a bit slower when it comes to all the legal cases that Trump is facing. Though a New York jury did order Trump to pay $83.3 million to E. Jean Carroll yesterday.

You can check out the last episode in your feed for more on that verdict and what it means. But since things were slower on some of these other cases we've been tracking, we are going to do something this week that a lot of you have asked for. We're going to take a step back and just check in on where things stand and more importantly, what the timeline looks like in all of the other cases that Trump is facing. Remember, there's the classified documents case out of Florida where Trump is facing 40 charges, including violating the Espionage Act. This is the case that centers around Trump taking classified documents to his Mar-a-Lago club slash residence and refusing to return them to the federal government.

In the Hush Money case out of New York, Trump is facing 34 state-level counts, all surrounding payments to the adult film star Stormy Daniels. These alleged payments centered around the 2016 election and Trump's attempts to hide the affair that he had with Daniels. These alleged payments centered around the 2016 election and Trump's attempts to hide the affair that he had with Daniels. Then there's also the Georgia election interference case where Trump is charged with 13 counts related to his efforts to overturn the election results. We've already seen four of his co-defendants plead guilty, but if you've been tuning into this podcast, you know that there's controversy brewing around the prosecution's team, and we will get

into that later. Finally, the federal election interference case. Trump is facing four counts related to his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. That case is at a standstill until we get a definitive ruling on presidential immunity, likely blowing the March 4th start date out of the water. We will talk about all of this, tell you what you need to know and what we just don't know at this point in time. After the break, we will talk it all through with NPR Justice Correspondent Kerry Johnson. S.A.P. Concur. Global Head of Sales Ryan Demarey shares how S.A.P. Concur solutions can help solve specific problems and support long-term growth. We have a travel booking tool, we have an expense

tool, and we have a vendor invoice tool. We very much so take the approach of we want to meet businesses where they're at. You can start with a piece of it and grow. Maybe you have a very specific business problem that you need to solve for today before you can move forward. Maybe you only have 10 expense claims. You're going to try this out as a proof of concept for a division of your team.

That's really what we focus on with customers as they begin their relationship with Concur. It's what do you need to solve for today? And how can we show you immediate value by solving that problem and then grow with you over time? Visit Concur.com to learn more. Joining us, NPR Justice Correspondent, Kerry Johnson. Hey, Kerry. Hey, Scott. So let's start with Florida, the classified documents case. Again, all about Trump taking classified documents from the White House all about Trump taking classified documents

from the White House to Mar-a-Lago. Since this happened after he left office, presidential immunity, we should start off with, is a non-issue, right? Mostly, although Trump might argue that some of this packing was done while he was still in the White House. That's to be determined. However, a lot of the conduct, including his refusal to honor the Justice Department's increasingly insistent request to return these materials, were post-White House for Donald Trump, for sure. And this has been at times a pretty dramatic case. This was the case where the FBI raided Mar-a-Lago, which really was a big moment of, wow, this is some serious stuff happening here. Remind us what the key issues are and what we need to remember about it, since, again, it's kind of been on the back burner lately. Sure. The Justice Department says that Trump had in his possession at Mar-a-Lago in really

unsecured rooms like a ballroom and a bathroom and all kinds of other places in this resort, which is crawling with members of the public and guests and members, materials as sensitive as nuclear secrets and war plans. These are some of the highest level security documents the United States owns. And Donald Trump doesn't own them, the Justice Department says. The government does. And when the FBI asked repeatedly for the return of these materials, Trump and his lawyers gave some of them back. But finally, when the FBI raided Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort, it found a bunch of additional documents, including some in a desk

drawer along with his personal passport. And of course, you mentioned the picture of the documents in the bathroom, which was this instantly iconic image from one of the court filings. Absolutely. And, you know, he's standing trial with two people. One, Walt Nauta, his valet, who's accompanied him all over the place on the campaign trail and even to other court hearings. And the second, Carlos de Oliveira. But interestingly here, the Justice Department does have a cooperator,

another person who worked at Mar-a-Lago who is apparently testifying about the refusal of Trump and others to give those papers back. What do we need to know about what's been happening in this case in recent weeks? A lot's been happening in the court docket, but none of it is super interesting, I'm afraid to say. What's happening here is a huge push and pull over classified information. Donald Trump wants access to all this information.

The Justice Department doesn't want to give him all the classified information. The Justice Department doesn't want to give him all the classified information. And the other point of debate is how much of the information will a jury potentially ever be able to see? This is a huge issue in all these national security cases. Defendants want to push the limits and try to prod the Justice Department into making material public that the intelligence community does not want to be made public. And ultimately, the decider here is going to be Judge Eileen Cannon. And she's set a series of briefings back and forth on this. And she's going to have a hearing in the case, I believe, March 1st. Any sense of the timing of when this trial could be? We don't know.

It's supposed to start May 20th, but most everybody involved in the case on either side thinks that's going to slip because of all these fights about the classified material. So we don't know. We don't know. We don't know. All right. Let's move to New York, where Trump is accused of falsifying business records to pay off adult film actress Stormy Daniels to keep quiet about their affair. This is the first of all these charges. This was the moment when a former president was charged with crimes for the very first time. Carrie, is there anything new in this case? Yeah, these are felony violations, but paperwork violations. If Trump, who has pleaded not guilty, is ultimately convicted, he's unlikely to face any jail time. Let's just say that straight out. And no major new developments here.

But we do expect a hearing in mid-February, February 15th, on whether this trial is going to happen in March or whether it's going to slip. And we know that District Attorney Alvin Bragg has said, hey, I'm happy to go second or third if one of these Justice Department special counsel cases goes first. That's cool. But we don't know for a fact that that trial is going to move yet. And as Bragg has said, that there's been a lot of political chatter of whether it politically makes sense for those who would like to see Trump convicted of some of these crimes to not have the seemingly more low level hush money case go first, opposed to these big consequential cases about overturning an election. Yeah. Allegedly paying somebody off in the weeks before the 2016 election is not the same magnitude as a fomenting violence at the United States Capitol. We can just put it that way. That's an accurate statement. I think you kind of already answered this question, but any general sense of timing for this trial?

This might be the case to go first, but we don't know. We're really invested in this question here at Trump's Trials. Well, you know, it is sort of the central point. Yeah. I'm going to move now to Georgia, which is a case we have talked a lot about recently due to the fact that Fulton County District Attorney Fonny Willis has been accused, again, without the clear-cut evidence at this point of having an improper relationship with the prosecutor she brought onto the case. Several of our recent episodes have have gotten into the details of this.

So check that out if you haven't heard them before. But Carrie, beyond that, beyond that glaring headline, there is to say, have there been any new filings or key rulings or decisions about where this one stands? Two new filings this week. or key rulings or decisions about where this one stands. Two new filings this week. You know, one of the defendants, Mike Roman, who worked with Trump, had sought to disqualify Willis and her entire office because of this alleged improper relationship with the special prosecutor, Nathan Wade. And this week, Trump's legal team joined in that motion.

Trump also wants to bounce the district attorney and the special prosecutor. They cite this alleged improper personal relationship between the two of them. And they also cite some remarks that the district attorney Willis made at a Martin Luther King Day celebration at a church in Georgia. They're alleging she basically is fomenting racial bias among the jury pool there, and they want her off this case. And then just today, Scott, one of these other defendants in this sprawling RICO case also joined the motion. So now we have three defendants trying to bounce the district attorney off the case, and we're waiting for her to finally file a written response to these allegations

February 2nd. And I'll just point out, yet another week has gone by without a formal clear-cut response or denial from Willis, other than that speech that she gave, which did not directly address the core question. She raised, as you said, the questions about racism and things like that, but didn't directly answer the question of whether or not there was truth to this. Yeah, we are waiting. We are waiting for Fannie Willis' side of the story. whether or not there was truth to this.

Yeah, we are waiting. We are waiting for Fannie Willis' side of the story. And in the interim, just about everybody and their brother who's a lawyer or legal adjacent has expressed an opinion. So that's where we are. Some of which have been featured in this podcast. So again, given all that, any sense of timing of when this trial could be? Fannie Willis wanted this trial to start in August. There is no way that

is going to happen with all these other ethical issues looming over the case. Can I ask about that? Because that is the furthest out possible trial date that we're talking about, even given the time between now and August. All of the things that need to be sorted now would push that back? I don't think that case is going to go in August, and I didn't think so even before these allegations against the district attorney. It's just too difficult to mount a case that big involving that many defendants, including the former president of the United States, in that amount of time. Okay. Lastly, the federal election case. We've talked a lot about that case because, first of

all, it was supposed to be first, and second, this has led to this big court challenge on the question of immunity, whether or not sitting presidents have criminal immunity. That is something that arguments were made in front of federal appeals court judges several weeks ago at this point. Still waiting for a ruling. Should we read anything into how long this ruling is taking? You know, more than two weeks ago, I sat in the appeals court and I listened as Judge Florence Pan tried to press Trump's lawyer about whether he could send SEAL Team 6 to assassinate one of his political rivals. And there wasn't a really satisfying answer from the Trump legal team. But this case is more complicated than that, right? I mean, among the things these three judges are trying to figure out is whether Trump can even appeal at this stage of the case or whether he has to wait until after the trial is over, whether presidents enjoy a complete shield from criminal prosecution for acts they take while in the White House. And if there is no complete shield, where to draw the line and whether Donald Trump crossed the line.

So those are complicated issues, right? That said, this entire case is on pause while we wait for the appeals court. And this three-judge panel ruling, which is not yet out, will not be the end of the story. We know the former president may ask the entire appeals court to hear this case and may want the Supreme Court to hear this case. And we are almost in February. This trial was supposed to start March 4th. There's no way it's starting March 4th. The district judge in charge of this trial, Tanya Chutkin, has now slated in another January 6th related defendant for trial in April. And so I have canceled my vacation for April and I expect to be on watch through the summer. But it's not clear to me we're going to have this

trial this summer either. But in the meantime, you can go somewhere tropical and remote in March and not have to worry about any updates. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Who knows? I'm not so sure about that because we might get some more court arguments in one of these cases between now and then. And in the meantime, we're going to have a U.S. Supreme Court hearing in just a couple of weeks on yet another key question, court hearing in just a couple of weeks on yet another key question, whether or not Colorado has the right to kick Trump off the ballot because of the 14th Amendment, which bars insurrectionists from holding federal office. So that's that. Carrie, I feel really unsatisfied without any clear-cut answers of when we're going to get these trials, but I guess that's not your fault. Thank you for not blaming me. If you make travel plans, make them refundable.

SINPR's Carrie Johnson. Thanks so much. My pleasure. Thanks as always to our supporters who hear the show sponsor-free. If that's not you, it could be. Sign up at plus.npr.org or subscribe on our show page in Apple Podcasts. The show is produced by Tyler Bartlam and edited by Adam Rainey and Steve Drummond. Our technical director is Kwasi Lee. Our executive producers are Beth Donovan and Sammy Yenigan. Eric Maripoti is NPR's vice president of news programming. I'm Scott Detrow.

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