Trump's Trials - Former fixer Michael Cohen takes the stand in Trump's criminal trial

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

For this episode of Trump's Trials, All Things Considered host Ailsa Chang speaks with NPR's Andrea Bernstein and attorney Andrew Weissmann.Donald Trump's former personal attorney and "fixer" Michael Cohen gave an extended, first-hand account of what happened in the turbulent months at the end of the 2016 campaign.At the New York criminal courthouse, Cohen said that then-presidential candidate Trump directed him to negotiate an agreement with adult film actor Stormy Daniels. Topics include:- What Cohen said on the stand- If Cohen's testimony is necessary in this case- A preview of the defense's strategy for cross examination Follow the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for new episodes each Saturday.Sign up for sponsor-free episodes and support NPR's political journalism at plus.npr.org/trumpstrials.Email the show at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

It's Trump's Trials from NPR. I'm Scott Detro. We love Trump! This is a persecution. He actually just stormed out of the courtroom. We love him! Innocent to proven guilty in a court of law. Our regular episodes come out every Saturday, but there's some news in one of former President Trump's cases today.

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Donald Trump's former personal attorney, Michael Cohen, says that then presidential candidate, Donald Trump, directed him to negotiate an agreement with adult film actor Stormy Daniels. At the New York criminal courthouse, Cohen gave an extended firsthand account of what happened in the turbulent months at the end of the 2016 campaign. NPR's Andrea Bernstein was there and joins us now. Hi, Andrea. Hey, Elsa.

So I take it this was another dramatic day of testimony. Indeed it was. I followed Michael Cohen closely and I thought I knew what he had to say. But Cohen said very clearly today when it came to the hush money negotiations, quote, what I was doing, I was doing at the direction of and for the benefit of Mr. Trump. Cohen gave new context for many things that have been in the public record and more specifically in the record in this trial. Okay, new context. Like what?

I think most people understand Trump's what's the details. Today, Cohen described how it was his job to keep Trump up to date on everything. Plus, he said he wanted to get credit. And in this case, there's backup for that idea. When former Trump Communications aide Hope Hicks testified, she said she didn't think Cohen would pay money to Daniels out of the kindness of his heart. Cohen was the kind of person, Hope Hicks said, who, quote, wanted credit. Interesting.

Okay, so what new things did we learn about the Daniels negotiations? The details behind the story. According to Cohen, Trump told him after the release of the excess Hollywood tape quote, this is a disaster, a total disaster. Women will hate me. Guys may think it's cool, but for women, this is going to be a disaster. Cohen repeatedly says he discussed each step of the negotiations with Trump. For example, Cohen said that Trump told him directly about the $130,000 payment, quote, just push it out until after the election because if I win, it won't be relevant. If I lose, I don't care.

Huh. Okay. Well, that strategy to not pay until after the election obviously was a failure. So what did Cohen say about that? He says Daniel's threatened to bolt and take her story to the Daily Mail. Cohen says he told Trump and Trump told him he'd been advised by some very smart people.

It's $130,000. You're a billionaire. Just pay it. No need to keep this thing out there. Just do it. Just go meet with Allen Weisselberg, the CFO, and figure this thing out. And Cohen did.

So it's still just Cohen and Trump in a lot of these calls and meetings, right? Yes, but throughout the day, prosecutors put up phone records between Cohen and Trump, Cohen is Stormy Daniels' lawyer, and they lined up these phone records with the times and dates that Cohen was making the agreement and wiring the money. Okay, what about the business deal at the heart of this case? There's testimony about that too. Cohen says right before Trump left for the inauguration, he met with Trump and the chief financial officer, Allen Weisselberg at Trump Tower, and they promised to pay him $420,000,

which was the Stormy payment, another $50,000 for some tech services, $60,000 for a bonus, plus some extra to cover taxes. Cohen says Trump approved it, then said, this is going to be one heck of a ride in DC. Well, how did Trump's team react to all of this today? Surprisingly quietly. Trump let his eyes droop, he slouched, his lawyers rarely objected. They've not gotten to cross and we expect them to lean into Cohen's own felony convictions for lying. One defense they've said over and over, Cohen's own felony convictions for lying.

One defense I've said over and over, Trump's concern wasn't the election, it was Melania. But Cohen said that Trump allegedly told him he wasn't thinking about Melania. This was about the campaign. That produced a reaction with Trump vigorously shaking his head. His lawyers will get to cross-examination tomorrow. That is NPR's Andrea Bernstein. Thank you so much, Andrea. Thanks, Elsa. MUSIC

Michael Cohen was one of the most anticipated witnesses in this case. For more on the importance of today's testimony, we're going to bring in now attorney Andrew Weissman. He's co-author of the book The Trump Indictments. He was also a lead prosecutor in the Mueller investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election. Welcome back to All Things Considered. Nice to be here. Nice to have you. Okay, so even though this is the first time that Michael Cohen has testified in this trial, the jury obviously has already heard a lot about him Cohen has testified in this trial. The jury obviously has already heard a lot about him and his involvement in this case. What would you say were the key

things you were listening for directly from Cohen? Well, I think it was sort of on two different planes. As somebody who used to be a prosecutor and a defense lawyer, I was very focused, obviously, on the proof and sort of so many direct conversations that he had with Donald Trump. I lawyer, I was very focused, obviously, on the proof and so many direct conversations that he had with Donald Trump. It was things that I think we knew from other witnesses must have happened, but there's a difference between something that's proved by circumstantial evidence and then hearing it directly from the person who was really inside the tent. But there was also something which I didn't quite expect,

even having done a lot of trials, which was the personal dynamic of understanding just how much love and respect and how much Michael Cohen's sort of whole life and seemed like his whole, sort of at least his work life, his reason for being was really tied up in his relationship to Donald Trump. And that I think came out very loud and clear during the testimony where at one point he was asked, how did you feel when Donald Trump would sort of compliment you on, you know,

something you had done for him? And he said, I felt like I was on top of the world. Wow. And it was really had that of, it was such a touching moment of understanding how far and how broken that relationship now is. Yeah. Well, you know, even though Michael Cohen

is a central figure in this whole alleged arrangement to pay Daniels, you have argued that calling Cohen as a witness in this case might not have been all that necessary. Can you explain why? Sure. I think what I was trying to say in a New York Times op-ed that I wrote for today is that you could really, I think it was surprising to me just how strong the case was.

And all of the different people who had testified, David Pecker, the head of the National Enquirer, talked about direct conversations and the scheme that he had with Donald Trump as the other principal. Hope Hicks had very damaging testimony. And then there were notes that were taken by the CFO, the chief financial officer and the controller at the Trump Organization that sort of detailed the payment, the sort of the cover-ups or the alleged cover-up scheme. So there was just a lot of evidence that had come in.

There was a real edifice to both corroborate Michael Cohen, but also to sort of independently prove the charged crimes. So then why call him at all? Like, what do you think prosecutors are trying to do here by calling Cohen to the stand? I think that a lot of times a jury, even if they sort of know what's going on and it's established through some direct and a lot of circumstantial evidence, hearing it from somebody who was there on the inside, even if it's a very flawed witness, can be invaluable. And a lot of times what I've seen in trials is a jury comes back and convicts and then says with respect to that problematic

witness, we either didn't need him or didn't believe him, even though what they're really saying is, yeah, we believe to him it's just sort of was unnecessary. We sort of knew already. But I think it would be hard when you have somebody who's an insider to just not let the jury see what that person has to say about so many key events, especially when we're talking about somebody who is the former president of the United States. Well, let me ask you though, do you think Cohen delivered value for the prosecution so far?

I know he still has another day of testimony because he is someone with obvious credibility problems, right? This is a man who claims he lied to a federal judge. He's been in prison. What do you think? Was this a value add? I do. I think that, of course, I was in the courtroom,

I heard him on direct examination. I found a lot of what he had to say, it made a lot of sense. It was a narrative that, frankly, I haven't heard an alternative narrative that accounts for all of the other evidence in the case, which people say trials are about alternative narratives and there so far hasn't been an alternative that's been offered to explain all of the evidence, whether it comes from Michael Cohen or from many other witnesses

and documents. But cross-examination hasn't started yet, and so it still remains to be seen whether this was sort of a net positive. And of course, none of us know how it's being assessed by a jury. And what do you think the defense's strategy will be and how they will frame Cohen's testimony on cross? Well, you know, he has a significant amount of baggage and by that I mean he has committed crimes both for Donald Trump but also other crimes not for Donald Trump that were in his own interest.

Those crimes include false statements and perjury. And so, you know, any witness with that amount of baggage, any juror would want to see that that person is highly corroborated. So the defense has a lot to work with in terms of bringing out all of the reasons why you should be very, very careful in assessing his testimony. And I think that's fair. I think that's a fair point. Attorney Andrew Weissman, law professor at NYU, thank you so much for joining us again.

You're welcome. Thanks for listening to Trump's Trials from NPR. Keep an eye out for more episodes like this whenever big news happens. And we'll be back later this week with our regular show on Saturday. I'm Scott Tetreault. This message comes from NPR sponsor Organic Valley, a co-op of small organic family farms. Dairy farmer Tyler Webb shares how he and his family work with nature to manage challenges on the farm. When I think of land stewardship, it's taking the opportunity to like slowly walk through

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