Trump's Trials - In Georgia a resignation, in New York a delay

Episode Date: March 15, 2024

This week on Trump's Trials, host Scott Detrow is joined by Justice Correspondent Carrie Johnson and Georgia politics reporter Sam Gringlas.Judge Scott McAfee ruled Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis can stay on the Georgia election interference case but only if she removes special prosecutor Nathan Wade. Wade later resigned in a letter to the district attorney.Willis and Wade had come under fire for having a relationship that Trump and his co-defendants argued was a conflict of interest. Judge McAfee said in his ruling that the defendants did not meet the burden of proving the relationship was a conflict of interest but found "a significant appearance of impropriety" in the prosecution team. And in New York, the judge overseeing the hush money case officially delayed the start of that trial to mid-April. Jury selection was originally set to begin on March 25. Topics include: - Nathan Wade resigns - What decision means for the case and Willis- Delay in New York hush money caseFollow the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for new episodes each Saturday.Sign up for sponsor-free episodes and support NPR's political journalism at plus.npr.org/trumpstrials.Email the show at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Drop charges, drop prosecutors, dismissed motions, and delays. From NPR, this is Trump's Trials, I'm Scott Detrow. This is a persecution. He actually just stormed out of the courtroom. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. On another week where an actual Trump trial once again receded a little more into the distance, you might be forgiven for thinking there isn't much news to talk about. Well, you would be wrong.

It was another newsy week in trial land with Georgia leading the way. On Friday, Judge Scott McAfee ruled Fulton County District Attorney Fonny Willis could stay on the case only if Special Prosecutor Nathan Wade would step down. And hours later, Wade did just that. Willis, as a reminder, is leading a sprawling RICO case against former President Donald Trump and others for their alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. Allowing Willis to stay on the case is a win for the prosecution, but the judge did not hold back on his condemnation of Willis. He repeatedly criticized her judgment and actions.

And remember, Willis has now spent the past two months having to defend herself and the outcome of this case. The whole situation has been a blow to the case's reputation as well as to her own. Also earlier this week, Judge McAfee decided to drop six charges facing Trump and his 14 co-defendants. Three of those charges are specifically against Trump. They could be refiled, but we'll have to wait and see if that actually happens. So for now, Trump is facing 10 criminal counts in Georgia, not 13. Plus, just when you thought one of Trump's cases was going to trial, think again. A New York judge has now delayed the start of the Hush Money case. This is coming after a request from the prosecution, not the defense.

So the trial will not start March 25th, as we've been saying. It will now start mid-April at the earliest. We will explain why the prosecution wanted that sudden delay. We will get into all the details in Georgia. Stick around. We'll talk about it with NPR justice correspondent Kerry Johnson and WABE politics reporter Sam Gringlis. This message comes from NPR sponsor SAP Concur. Stuart McLean, CFO of Brother UK, shares how SAP Concur's audit and expense tool supports their work across multiple offices.

Across Europe, we have a presence in 17 countries, which obviously involves 17 different tax regulations, 17 different fiscal authorities, you know, and this makes life complicated for us. But actually with SAP Concur, we're able to configure the system correctly for each of those countries. We're able to configure the the system correctly for each of those countries. We're able to configure the audit rules correctly for each of those countries. So actually it gives us a lot of efficiency and good governance as well. So actually for us, a solution like SAP Concur makes life so much easier. Otherwise we'd be forever checking back to regulations, checking back to documentation.

Those are automatically updated in the system for us. So that's, you know, it's a big tick in the box from a governance perspective and an efficiency perspective as well. Visit Concur.com to learn more. So, Carrie, let's start with you. Can you explain the judge's ruling and what stood out to you? This was a decision from Judge Scott McAfee. He said that lawyers for former President Trump did not meet the burden of proving an actual conflict of interest in this case. But the judge said that even though that relationship ended, people might wonder as this case moves along whether there is some ongoing financial relationship between the two or even whether the romantic relationship has resumed. And as long as Wade remains on the case, that perception is going to persist. So Carrie, on one hand, Willis gets to stay. On the other hand, this ruling was pretty harsh and detailed when it came to characterizing her conduct.

Scott, there's so much harsh and critical language here. The judge said this was a tremendous lapse in judgment by Willis, that her testimony before him on these matters was unprofessional, that she had made bad choices repeatedly. made bad choices repeatedly. And he even called into question whether Willis and Wade testified honestly before him about the timing of their relationship. The judge wrote, an odor of mendacity remains about that. Really rough stuff. And then he went on to say, one of the points Trump's lawyers had made was a speech, about a speech that Willis gave around Martin Luther King Jr. Day. The judge said that was probably improper too, and he might consider at some later point a gag order. How does losing Wade affect the case? How easy is it to replace a lead prosecutor and keep moving

forward? My sense is that the bulk of his work was done during the grand jury process, which extended for a long time. Fonannie Willis and the DA's office have enlisted other experts to handle a lot of the trial matters and to advise on that underlying RICO racketeering statute that's at issue against many of these defendants. So the bulk of Wade's work may already have been done. And Sam, you've been covering this in Georgia. What do we know about Judge Scott McAfee who made this ruling? Judge Scott McAfee is 34 years old. He was sworn in just about a year ago after an appointment by Republican Governor Brian Kemp. And this year, McAfee will be on the ballot himself. He's up for election. He's a former federal prosecutor who once worked under

Fawnie Willis in the Fulton DA's office. And Scott, reading this ruling and others from McAfee, you can really tell he is writing for multiple audiences, not just the lawyers in this particular case. Here's Georgia State University law professor Anthony Michael Christ. And so what Judge McAfee has done twice this week now has been to be very careful in explaining the choices that he's making, what the law commands, and to explain it in a way that the public of Fulton County, the public of Georgia, the entire nation and the world can digest the exact thought process that he's had. Scott, I've sat in Judge McAfee's courtroom for many, many hours at this point, and it is clear

to me that he is respected by both sides. And he's also been very even keeled on the bench, including during some really tense moments, like when Willis's testimony on this topic got so heated, he had to call for a recess. I mean, Sam, you've been in the courtroom, you've been covering this, I do have to ask this awkward and unusual dynamic of the fact that Willis was once McAfee's boss. How has that played out at any point? So this is something that has been raised on, I'd say, right wing corners of the internet. Some posters on social media also dug up that McAfee at some point had donated to Willis's first election campaign. This was well before he

was a judge on the bench. But you know But the legal community here in Atlanta is so tight, especially when you're talking about attorneys who are working on these very high profile cases. Everyone really seems to know each other. I mean, for example, the defense attorney who first brought these allegations in the first place, Ashley Merchant, she was good friends with Nathan Wade before she unspooled these accusations that have really disrupted his life and career. So Sam, you are not only covering this legal proceeding, you are covering an election in the incredibly important state of Georgia. How has the public reacted to all of this drama surrounding Willis and surrounding the case? So this story has dominated headlines for

weeks at this point. And these conversations have been embarrassing and fraught. I mean, they're focusing on sex, divorce, race, gender, money. Add to that a reprimand from the judge, as Kerry mentioned, for a tremendous lapse in judgment. And I've been wondering if all of this could shape how potential jurors see this election case when it gets to trial. I put that question to Professor Kreis. People have a very short memory. We are looking at a very late 2024, perhaps even early 2025 trial. And there's a lot of daylight between now and the beginning of a trial here in Fulton County. Still, there could be political ramifications for Willis. She is facing re-election

this year and has challengers from the left and the right. And while I would be surprised if she doesn't win that election, there will still be a chance for voters to weigh in directly. One of the interesting dynamics all along, though, Sam, was that early on and for a long time as Willis pursued this case, high profile conservatives in Georgia like Governor Kemp had really sidestepped directly attacking her in a way that Republicans across the country had been doing. And that changed as soon as these allegations came forward and as soon as this case became about her personal life and her personal decisions. How do you think this is this is playing out going forward for Willis specifically? I mean, among other things, the state Senate has already started a committee to look into what happened here, to look into Willis. Yeah, I mean, Republicans still have a number of avenues to continue investigating and pursuing

DA Willis. There's that Senate committee with subpoena power that you mentioned. State Republicans have also just begun to implement a new oversight board with the power to remove elected DAs for misconduct. Republicans in Congress in Washington, D.C. are also trying to investigate the DA. And of course, these allegations will continue to be fodder for Trump as he runs for re-election. I mean, just last week, Trump was in Georgia mocking Willis and Wade during a rally in North Georgia.

And Kerry, this comes just a few days after the judge dropped six counts against Trump and his co-defendants in this case. Is this case weaker now? Is that a fair thing to say? I don't think it necessarily is weaker. The judge left open the possibility that prosecutors could go back, do more work, and refile those charges. But of course, that would contribute to the delay in any trial in this case. You know, the fact remains that the government has former President Trump on tape with Georgia's Secretary of State demanding more votes and a number of other bits of evidence, including some cooperation from Trump's one-time lawyer, bits of evidence, including some cooperation from Trump's one-time lawyer, Jenna Ellis, and others. Carrie, I feel like I'm preemptively hiding behind my computer screen before I ask you this next question, but what does this do to the timeline of this case? My favorite question to ask

you. Well, the timing becomes the substance after a while when you're talking about a former president and the presumptive Republican nominee to return to the White House. And so Trump's attorney today said he respected Judge McAfee's decision in Georgia, but he left open the possibility they might appeal. And I think certainly between that and the dismissal of some other charges this week, we should expect additional delays in this case. It was already a really sprawling case against, you know, over a dozen defendants. And this thing is not going to trial anytime soon, for sure. And speaking of delays, speaking of delays, we had that one trial we were sure of. We knew it was going to happen this year. It was going to happen in a matter of weeks.

The New York hush money trial set for March 25th. The Trump's trials podcast team had tickets. We were ready to go. It has now been delayed. The judge has issued an order now delaying it at least a month. Carrie, the surprising thing here is this request came from the prosecutors. What was going on? What's going on here is that they got additional pages from the U.S. attorney's office in Manhattan, the Southern District of New York, some of which relate directly to this case, but most of which do not. It involves tens of thousands of pages. Last year, the district attorney, Alvin Bragg, asked the Southern District for any relevant information.

Remember, that's the office, the Southern District, that prosecuted Michael Cohen, Trump's former fixer and maybe the star witness in this case in Manhattan that's going to trial. And so some of those materials surfaced. And then in January of this year, Donald Trump's legal team issued a broader subpoena seeking a lot more information. And the Justice Department, the Southern District of New York, turned over a lot more pages. That's what's at issue here. And it's an issue really of fairness to Donald Trump. His lawyers need time to sift through this material. Even though prosecutors say most of it is not relevant to the case, he does need a bit of time to find potential inconsistencies and accounts by Michael Cohen and other possible witnesses. And is that second more recent request why this is coming so late? Again, I think a lot of people saw this headline and they thought this investigation was years ago. What was going on here? Yeah, I think it relates to Trump's decision to subpoena prosecutors for more information in January. And there are tens

of thousands of pages. Trump apparently now has all of those materials, according to new filing from the district attorney today. So, Sam, again, you're in Georgia, one of the six or seven states that's going to decide whether or not Donald Trump goes back to the White House. Do you have any sense of how important it is for voters to get resolution in these criminal trials before they go to the polls? So Scott, after Trump was indicted in Fulton County last summer, I spent an afternoon at the farmer's market in Alpharetta. It's this wealthy suburb in Fulton County last summer. I spent an afternoon at the farmer's market in Alpharetta. It's this wealthy suburb in Fulton County that used to be pretty Republican, but has been more fickle in the age of Trump. And while I heard a lot of the partisan divide you might expect on this topic,

you know, the desire to see Trump face consequences, or on the flip side, the feeling that these charges are a political witch hunt, I also heard from so many people who even doubted back then that there would be a resolution before the 2024 election. I think it's also important to remember that reporters and the politically active who are really tuned into this story are tuned in in a way that I think most voters aren't yet. That, of course, could change if Trump is on trial as the election heats up later this summer. But you know, in all the elections I've covered here so far, what happened in 2020 is still very much animating how people are thinking about their vote, whether it's people who still tout false conspiracy claims, or people who fear their

vote might not count at all should Trump make another attempt to subvert the results here. Sam, you're not suggesting that most key swing voters do not host weekly podcasts about Donald Trump's criminal trials, are you? You know, it's an important reminder for us, I think. I forget sometimes until you go out and talk to voters and they're like, wait, Biden, Trump, what are you talking about? That's WABE's political reporter Sam Gringless, along with NPR justice correspondent Kerry Johnson. Thanks to both of you. Happy to do it. Thanks, guys.

We'll be back next week with another episode of Trump's Trials. Thanks to our supporters who hear the show sponsor free. If that is not you, still could be. You can sign up at plus.npr.org or subscribe on our show page and Apple podcasts. This show is produced by Tyler Bartleman, edited by Adam Rainey, Krishna Dev Kalamar, and Steve Drummond. Our executive producers are Beth Donovan and Sam Yannigan. Eric Maripoti is NPR's vice president of news programming. I'm Scott Detrow. Thanks for listening to Trump's Trials from NPR. Thank you. ready to take on whatever the market throws at you next. Learn more at Concur.com. On NPR's ThruLine. Bread, freedom, and national dignity. It was time for the regime to fix itself.

That's why I was going out. Remembering the Arab Spring. Find NPR's ThruLine wherever you get your podcasts.