Trump's Trials - The man who helped roll back abortion rights now wants to 'crush liberal dominance'

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

Trump's Trials is now Trump's Terms. Each episode, host Scott Detrow curates NPR coverage of the incoming Trump administration.Leonard Leo was a key architect of the conservative supermajority on the Supreme Court that rolled back the federal right to an abortion. Now, he anticipates to exert more conservative influence on the judiciary under a second Trump presidency. NPR's Steve Inskeep spoke to Leonard Leo and NPR's Carrie Johnson. Support NPR and hear every episode sponsor-free with NPR+. Sign up at plus.npr.org.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

I'm Scott Detro and you're listening to Trump's Terms from NPR. We will have really great strong people. Donald Trump is unstoppable. Make America healthy again. The future is going to be amazing. Each episode we bring you NPR's latest coverage of the incoming Trump administration and the people who will run it. Cabinet secretaries, political advisors, military leaders, NPR is following their agenda

and their path to power to bring you stories like the one you're about to hear right after this. The marketing for the movie Wicked has been inescapable. There's all the green and pink merch and Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo have been everywhere, but does the movie live up to the hype? We know you've been waiting for this one. We've seen Wicked and we have thoughts and we'll get to them all, including some weirdly heated opinions on Defying Gravity. Listen to the Pop Culture Happy Hour podcast from NPR.

Thanksgiving was a national holiday created in the middle of the Civil War to unify a country that was split in two. Learn about the origins of Thanksgiving and how the unity and division that we see at our Thanksgiving tables was there from the very beginning. Listen to the Throughline podcast from NPR. It's almost Thanksgiving. And if you're hosting this year, how well do you know how to cook the main event? A turkey in the grand scheme of things, not actually that hard. There's just a couple

little things you have to keep in mind. It requires a little bit of planning ahead. On a new episode of Life Kit, we talk turkey. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Steve Inskeep. We've been talking with one of the activists who played a big role in the first Trump administration and is preparing for a second. Leonard Leo is a household name among people who follow the conservative effort to reshape the Supreme Court. And he now hopes to extend his influence into other power centers across society. Our justice correspondent, Kerry Johnson, is on the line and we are going to listen together to an interview with Leonard Leo. Hey there, Kerry.

Hey, Steve. How did this man become so influential? Well, Leonard Leo spent more than 25 years at the Federalist Society. That's a conservative organization that's now got a presence and scores and scores of law schools around the country. And it's devoted to fostering conservative principles and a conservative pipeline of lawyers who can become government officials and judges. Leo also has been a massively successful person at fundraising, taking in what we believe

to be billions of dollars for conservative judges and causes. And of course, he's been super influential at the Supreme Court. He's befriended, shepherded, and advocated for many of the conservative justices now on the court. And of course, now the president who appointed three of those justices comes back for another term.

President-elect Trump is determined to increase presidential power and effort that could also depend on those same justices. So there's a lot to talk about here and that's the backdrop as we called up Leonard Leo. Let's listen together. What's the opportunity you see for the judiciary in this new administration? Well, as in the first administration, President Trump has an opportunity to put more individuals on the bench who are committed to interpreting the Constitution as it's written and as it was understood by the founding fathers.

You know, there aren't as many vacancies as there were in the first term, but there are a few on the courts of appeals and some pretty important parts of the country, probably about five or six of those. And you never know, there's always the possibility of a Supreme Court vacancy. So it's an opportunity for the president to sort of further solidify an originalist, constitutionalist approach to the law in the federal courts.

Are you assuming that there will be some justice who will at least think about retiring in the next few years? I think it's probably unlikely, just given where the court currently is and the ages of the justices and their respective help, but you never know. It's always a possibility and every administration I've ever known has always prepared for that contingency just to make sure. I want to note for people, you speak a lot about the rule of law. You're interested in the rule of law.

The president elect has appointed judges and justices whose view of the law you very much like, but also tends to decide for himself what he thinks is illegal or proper, and also wants to punish his critics. Are you concerned about the rule of law in this moment? Well, fortunately, we have a constitutional system that protects against any rash or unhastey action by presidents or by other public leaders. The separation of powers helps a lot in that regard, and an independent judiciary,

and so do the checks and balances between Congress and the executives. So there's always that risk in any system of government, but it's the best system of government I think we've ever seen in the world in terms of really making it hard for those things to happen. The president's critics, as you know, feel that there are a number of justices and judges that ruled in his favor again and again, in a number of these criminal cases that he has faced.

Do you believe that the justices that you did so much to bring to the Supreme court would in fact rule independently of the president who appointed them in the years ahead? I think the conservative justices of the court have consistently shown that they rule independently. In 2020, during the earlier election, uh, the Supreme court and the lower federal courts ruled

in the election cases, the way Court and the lower federal courts ruled in the election cases the way they thought and that was mostly not consistent with at the time President Trump's views. And there are lots of other instances where his appointees and others on the court have made decisions that he hasn't been entirely thrilled with. So I think they've shown their independence reasonably well. I know lots of people disagree with some of the decisions they've made, but my own view is that they, uh, they are calling them the way they've

seen in accord with the constitution and all. Mr. Leo, I want people to know about something called the Teneo network. If I'm pronouncing it correctly, there's been some reporting on this and effort that you're involved with to bring conservative influence to businesses, Wall Street, Silicon

Valley, Hollywood, in the same way that you've brought more conservative influences to the judiciary. Will you help me understand what you're doing there with judges? You identified young law clerks, young lawyers to try to promote them into the judiciary. What are you doing with say Hollywood?

It's very important in my view to create pipelines of talent and networks of very driven strategic people in all sectors of American life if you want to introduce the Western cultural tradition and traditional values. So in the case of Hollywood, see for example, the idea is to recruit and identify talented young professionals who have a knack for content creation and other aspects of the production of entertainment, people who believe in sort of family-centered entertainment where there's a high demand,

and Hollywood recognizes that, and then really helping them find opportunities to use their skills to create that kind of entertainment in the Hollywood space and beyond. And there are a lot of young professionals in entertainment and in journalism and in business and finance who are looking for opportunities to inject their traditional values and the Western cultural tradition into other aspects of American social and cultural life. ProPublica obtained a video of you promoting this project and saying you wanted to quote

crush liberal dominance. Is that what you want to do? Yes. And the reason, Steve, and I would really call your attention to the words I use. Okay. I want to crush liberal dominance. In other words, I want to make sure that there's a level playing field

for the american people to make choices about the lives of the one have in our country i'm perfectly happy having world where people can make choices between various kinds of things but what i don't want you to system where are are entertainment system or a world of news media or our business and finance worlds are heavily dominated by left ideology that chokes out, that either chokes out other ways of thinking about things or that just creates a system where

sort of inappropriate political or policy decisions are being made in places where politics and policy don't really have a proper place. It sounds to me like you are doing something very analogous to the judiciary. You've identified what you feel are power centers where liberals have great cultural power and you want to change them and get people who are on your

side further up into them. Is that correct? Yes. No, that's a very fair characterization of what I think the Teneo Network is trying to achieve. And that's why I'm very supportive of it. Do you see this as a multi-decade project rather like the project for the judiciary has been?

Oh, I think these kinds of changes do take time, although I have to say I am impressed by how quickly the Teneo Network has been able to build a pipeline changes do take time although I have to say I am impressed by how quickly the Tanao network has been able to build a pipeline to talent in these spaces and I am also very impressed with how quickly you're seeing for example in the journalism and entertainment spaces the standing up of new production studios and news platforms very impressed with the speed with which the debate about ESG has kind of flipped and changed.

Um, and so, uh, yes, these things do take a long time, um, but I, I am, um, struck by the speed with which some of this has occurred, uh, in the past two or three years. And I can't explain why it is, um, but it does seem to be faster than what I saw in the law. ESG, environmental, social and governance, the idea of having socially responsible investing.

That's a thing you want to change you're saying. Yeah, that's the other area where we've seen some really quick changes, right? You know, we'll walk back from companies and finance firms we're doing. And again, it's a speed of change that we really right, you know, real walk back from companies and finance firms for doing. And again, it's a speed of change that we really didn't see in the law.

So again, I can't explain why that is, but it does seem to be that there's a slightly different dynamic in play when you see these other networks building up in these other sectors of American life. Leonard Leo, it's a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Steve. It's a pleasure being on the show. Leonard Leo, who did a lot to shape the modern Supreme Court

and who is now looking for new centers of power to influence. Our justice correspondent, Carrie Johnson, was listening to that whole conversation and is still on the line. Carrie, he talked about judicial nominations in a second Trump term. How important are they likely to be? I think they're gonna be very important. Trump may not have as many opportunities to nominate judges this time around, but they were his most enduring legacy in his first term.

Remember, these judges serve for life and they'll do things, important things, far beyond Donald Trump's being in the White House. And some of the things that they may do may involve ruling on actions of the Trump administration. Now, Leonard Leo expressed confidence that judges and justices appointed by Trump will rule independently.

They sometimes, though not always, have ruled against Trump. What are a few big questions that may end up in court? I think there are going to be a lot of them, Steve. Donald Trump comes into his second term in office promising basically to break the back of our federal institutions, starting with the government, and he really is going to push his limits.

And all of that, or a lot of it, is likely to get to the courts. First show all the possibility that he'll use recess appointments if the Senate won't confirm some of his nominees. There's also the issue of the immigration methods he may seek to pursue to do what he calls mass deportations. And then finally, Steve, there's this whole issue of impoundment, whether he might refuse to spend money Congress has appropriated. Those are really clash of powers questions that would get through the federal courts and maybe all the way up to the Supreme Court in the coming year or two. NPR justice correspondent, Carrie Johnson, will be helping us to cover any legal battles that do come up, as well as battles within the Justice Department itself.

Carrie, thanks so much for the insights. My pleasure. And before we wrap up, a thank you to our NPR Plus supporters, who hear each show without sponsored messages and of course who help protect independent journalism. If you are not a supporter yet, you can visit plus.npr.org to find out how you can get a ton of podcast perks across dozens of NPR shows, like bonus episodes, exclusive merchandise, and more. Again, that's plus.npr.org.

I'm Scott Detro. Thanks for listening to Trump's Terms from NPR. stressful, especially if you're dealing with family baggage on top of your actual baggage. I'm going home. I'm going to revert back to old family roles that are stressful. And so this traffic jam is the straw that's breaking the camel's back. But don't worry, we're here to bring you some relief. Listen to the Life Kit podcast. We'll help you out this holiday season. NPR meets you where you are in a lot of different ways. Now we're in your pocket. Download the NPR app today.