Trump's Trials - 'Truly unprecedented:' Ex-DOJ prosecutor on 'weaponized' Justice Dept.

Episode Date: October 10, 2025

A federal grand jury indicted New York Attorney General Letitia James Thursday. The charges, which include bank fraud, come after pressure from President Trump to prosecute his political foes. NPR Justice correspondent Ryan Lucas explains the case, and what comes next. And Elie Honig, a former federal and state prosecutor, tells NPR why the DOJ's action is 'truly unprecedented.' Honig is the author of When You Come at the King: Inside DOJ’s Pursuit of the President, from Nixon to Trump.Support NPR and hear every episode of Trump's Terms sponsor-free with NPR+. Sign up at plus.npr.org.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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New York Attorney General Letitia James was indicted Thursday on bank fraud and false statement charges. This comes after the same office indicted former FBI director James Comey. President Trump replaced the top federal prosecutor there with one of his former lawyers, and that's the person who secured this indictment. NPR justice correspondent, Ryan Lucas, joins us now. Ryan, so what more can you tell us about the charges against James and the prosecutors who are bringing this case on? Well, as Lela just mentioned, James faces two charges here, one kind of bank fraud, one kind of false statements to a financial institution. And the indictment alleges that James bought a house in 2020 in Norfolk, Virginia.

But prosecutors say she falsely claimed it as a second residence to get better terms on her mortgage. And the indictment says with those more favorable terms, she would have saved a total of almost $19,000 over the life of the loan. Okay. Now, the indictment was handed up by a grand jury in the Eastern District of Virginia. So that's the same place where the former FBI director, James Comey, was indicted just a few weeks ago. That's right. And there's been a huge amount of turmoil in that U.S. Attorney's office there in the past few weeks because of the Comey case and this case against James. The career DOJ attorney who had been the top prosecutor there had basically concluded after lengthy investigations that the evidence in the separate cases against Comey and James was too weak to bring charges. The White House didn't like that. They pushed that prosecutor out. his place, President Trump installed Lindsey Halligan, an insurance lawyer who had once served as Trump's personal attorney, but she has no prosecutorial experience. Days later, Halligan secured the indictment against Comey, and now a few weeks on, she presented the case yesterday

against James to the grand jury. Now, these two indictments against Leticia James and James Comey came after President Trump publicly called on the Justice Department to prosecute them, and that has alarm bells ringing, that Trump is using the Justice Department, weaponizing it, to target his perceived political enemies. Now, nationwide, people might know who James Comey is, but maybe not Letitia James as much. So what is Trump's issue with Letitia James? So when James campaigned to become New York's Attorney General, she vowed to investigate Trump. Once she was in office, she did exactly that. Ultimately, she sued Trump and his company for inflating the value of some of their assets. She won that case in court, a massive $450 million judgment, although that financial penalty was

later tossed out on appeal. But Trump has repeatedly lashed out at her during the presidential campaign last year, for example, he said that she should be arrested and punished. And then in a social media post last month, Trump urged the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, to go after James and other political foes saying that they were guilty and that justice must be served. Has James said anything in response to all this? She put out a video on social media. She called the indictment a continuation of Trump's weaponization of the justice system. She also said this. These charges are baseless. And the president's own public statements make clear that his only goal is political retribution at any cost. James said she's being targeted because she did her job as New York State Attorney General. She said she stands behind her office's investigation in the civil fraud suit against Trump. And she said she's not afraid and that she is going to continue to do her job. That's MPR justice correspondent. Ryan Lucas. Ryan, thanks. Thank you.

For more, we turn to Ellie Honig. He's a former federal prosecutor and author of the new book, when you come at the king inside DOJ's pursuit of the president from Nixon to Trump. Good morning. And thanks for being on the program. Graham. Thanks for having me, Leila. So how big of a victory is this for Donald Trump? Well, I guess it depends entirely on how you define a victory. If one defines victory as we got an indictment and we will get to March Letitia James into a courthouse and have her sit at the defendant's table, then it's a victory. If you mark victory by upholding the standards of independence of the Justice Department, it is certainly not that. And if you define victory as ultimately obtaining a conviction, that remains to be seen. I mean, I guess I want to know how unusual it is for the president to openly call for the prosecution of his perceived political enemies, urge the Justice Department to do that.

When a prosecutor doesn't do it, replace them with their own lawyer. I mean, how unprecedented is all this involvement? Well, I think we tend to overuse that word unprecedented, but I can affirm for you, this is truly unprecedented. My book, which you just alluded to, goes back every month. modern investigation back to Watergate. And we've never seen. We've never seen a president overtly explicitly publicly declare, I want these people by name, Letitia James is now the second person on that list who has been indicted joining Jim Comey. I want these people charged. And it's overtly political. And that's the line that's crossed here. I mean, this case, sure, it's about whether

Letitia James lied on her mortgage applications, but much bigger picture. It's about the powers of the presidency and the limitations on that power when it comes to the independence of the Justice Department. You hear often from the White House, from Republicans, well, the Democrats started it. They came after us. I mean, Letitia James successfully went after Trump in court. What's the difference between what James' prosecution of Trump was and what Trump and the DOJ's now case against James is?

Well, there's some truth to that. The Democrats did start this. I mean, Leticia James did start this. She overtly explicitly promised and fundraised throughout her 2018 campaign for Attorney General. Essentially, vote for me and I will nail Donald Trump for something. At times, she said she'd indict him. It would be money laundering. It would be something with his real estate business.

She did end up bringing a civil lawsuit against him, not a criminal prosecution. It was ultimately, I would say, not successful. I mean, she got a verdict from a judge and a massive fine attached to it, but a New York State Appeals Court throughout the entire fine, the end result. of that is a zero dollar judgment. So I think it's a mixed verdict at most. That said, none of that justifies the president of the United States weaponizing his own justice department to seek retributive justice. I mean, I think we have to be clear here. Both of those things are true. Latisha James absolutely targeted Donald Trump in her campaign as attorney general. Donald Trump is absolutely

targeting her now as payback. Neither of them is okay. And I would argue what the president is doing because he is the president is worse and more corrosive. What are the dangers of breaking down the barriers between the Department of Justice and the White House? And are there ways to put the guardrails back? It's a great question. There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution. There is no law passed by Congress that says DOJ must be or should be independent. Rather, that is the result of a decades and really centuries-long tradition and understanding and best governmental practice.

was at DOJ, half the time under a Republican president, half the time under Democratic president made no difference. That is the essence of what DOJ is and has been. And when we break that down, when a president says this wall of independence, I'm just taking it down, that is incredibly dangerous because no other entity within the federal government has the ability to deprive civilians of their liberty. Only DOJ has that. When you politicize that and make it subject to the whims of the president or any other powerful person, we're going down a very dangerous path. Ellie Honig is a former prosecutor, author, and CNN analyst.

Ellie, thank you. Thanks very much. And before we wrap up, a thank you to our NPR Plus supporters who hear each show without sponsored messages and, of course, who help protect independent journalism. If you are not a supporter yet, you can visit plus.npr.org to find out how you can get a ton of podcasts, perks across dozens of NPR shows, like bonus episodes, exclusive merchandise, and more.

Again, that's plus.npr.org. I'm Scott Detrow. Thanks for listening to Trump's Terms from NPR.