Trump's Trials - Trump goes all in on immunity

Episode Date: January 9, 2024

For this bonus episode of Trump's Trials, guest host Sacha Pfeiffer is joined by NPR Justice Correspondent Carrie Johnson. The DC Circuit Court of Appeals heard oral arguments from federal prosecutors and former President Donald Trump's legal team on the question of whether Trump is immune from criminal prosecution for his actions on January 6th and attempts to overturn the 2020 election.Topics include:- Arguments over the scope of presidential immunity - Possible decision outcomes - Political implications - What comes next Follow the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for new episodes each Saturday.Sign up for sponsor-free episodes and support NPR's political journalism at plus.npr.org/trumpstrials.Email the show at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

You're listening to Trump's Trials from NPR. I'm Scott Detrow. This is a persecution. He actually just stormed out of the courtroom. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. And we're here with a bonus episode. A federal appeals court in Washington, D.C. heard oral arguments today over the question of how far presidential immunity goes. Remember, former President Donald Trump is arguing that he is

immune from criminal prosecution for all actions taken while he was in office. And that includes his actions involving January 6th and his attempts to overturn the 2020 presidential election. We'll get into all of that and more on our regular Saturday show. But first, we wanted to share the story with you that just aired on NPR today, right after this. This message comes from NPR sponsor SAP Concur. Global Head of Sales Ryan Demarey shares how SAP Concur solutions can help solve specific problems and support long-term growth. We have a travel booking tool, we have an expense tool, and we have a vendor invoice tool. We very much so take the approach of we want to meet businesses where they're at.

You can start with a piece of it and grow. Maybe you have a very specific business problem that you need to solve for today before you can move forward. Maybe you only have 10 expense claims. You're going to try this out as a proof of concept for a division of your team. That's really what we focus on with customers as they begin their relationship with Concur. It's what do you need to solve for today? And how can we show you immediate value by solving that problem and then grow with you over time? Visit Concur.com to learn more. And now, here's Sasha Pfeiffer. Former President Trump himself was in attendance at the D.C. federal courthouse,

where his lawyer, John Sauer, made the argument that Trump should be immune from criminal prosecution. For more on this, we have NPR justice correspondent Kerry Johnson, who is in the courtroom for oral arguments. Kerry, if the appeals court agrees with Trump, it would mean this case related to January 6th would end. Is that correct? That's right, yeah. So then how did Trump's arguments go over with the judges? You know, all three judges at different points pushed back. I think that's because the implication for finding that a former president cannot be prosecuted for federal crimes, those implications are pretty huge. Here's one of the judges,

Florence Pan. In your view, could a president sell pardons or sell military secrets? Those are official acts. Could a president order SEAL Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? And Trump's lawyer, John Sauer, basically said former presidents cannot be charged with crimes unless they're impeached and convicted first. Trump, of course, was impeached by the House, but not convicted by the Senate after the siege on the Capitol. Another judge, Karen Henderson, basically said presidents take an oath to faithfully execute the laws. So the idea that a president could get away scot-free with violating those same laws just didn't make sense to her. This was Trump's first time back

at the courthouse since his arraignment last August. What did he say or do? Donald Trump entered the courtroom only a few minutes before the argument began. He just said one thing he asked his lawyers, is this where I sit? And Trump took notes. Sometimes he passed them to members of his legal team. The former president didn't say anything after the hearing, but he spoke afterward at a local hotel, arguing his prosecution is politically motivated, even though there's no evidence, none, that the current President Joe Biden played any role in this case. The man leading the prosecution, Special Counsel Jack Smith, also showed up at the courthouse. What did his team argue? James Pierce made the argument for the Justice Department and the special counsel team. Here's a bit of what he had to say. The president has a unique constitutional role, but he is not above the law. The former president enjoys no immunity

from criminal prosecution. Pierce said it would be a frightening future if a former president could avoid criminal sanctions only because he wasn't impeached and convicted by the Senate. So, Carrie, play this out for us. What are the different ways the judges might rule here? First, they could rule it's not the right time for Trump to appeal that he needs to wait until after any trial happens, though both the Justice Department and Trump want the court to decide this now. Second, the court could side with the Justice Department and Trump want the court to decide this now. Second, the court could side with the Justice Department and pave the way for Trump to file yet another appeal, perhaps eventually getting all the way to the Supreme Court. And finally, these judges could agree with Donald Trump, and that would bring an end to this case,

and potentially the case from the district attorney in Georgia, too. But the clock is ticking. We're now less than one week away from the Iowa caucuses, and voters are only weeks from heading to the polls in many more states. So when might the court issue a ruling on Trump's immunity, and why does that matter? Yeah, the appeal court could rule at any time right now. This D.C. trial, which was supposed to start March 4th, is on pause. What's at stake is whether this trial or any of the Trump trials will happen before the presidential election. That's NPR's Kerry Johnson.

Kerry, thank you for following this. My pleasure. Thanks for listening to Trump's Trials from NPR. Keep an eye out for more episodes like this whenever big news happens. And we'll be back later this week with our regular show on Saturday. I'm Scott Detrow. Thank you. With SAP Concur Solutions, you'll be ready to take on whatever the market throws at you next. Learn more at Concur.com. All that sitting and swiping, your body is adapting to your technology.

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