Trump's Trials - Trump's defense team grills Michael Cohen in cross-examination

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

For this episode of Trump's Trials, All Things Considered host Juana Summers speaks with NPR's Andrea Bernstein and attorney Kim Wehle.Donald Trump's former fixer Michael Cohen spent a second day on the witness stand testifying against his one time boss. Cohen mostly testified about purposefully mislabeling checks, false receipts and his previous loyalty to Trump. Cohen was aggressively cross-examined by Trump's defense team over social media statements he's made about Trump and whether he wants to see Trump in jail. Cohen is expected to be the final witness for the prosecution then defense will present their case to the jury. Topics include:- Cohen testimony - Cross-examination of CohenFollow the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify for new episodes each Saturday.Sign up for sponsor-free episodes and support NPR's political journalism at plus.npr.org/trumpstrials.Email the show at [e-mail] more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

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Donald Trump's defense team began cross-examining former Trump attorney Michael Cohen today by asking him about his memory and his credibility. It's Cohen's second day on the stand. NPR's Andrea Bernstein joins us from outside the courthouse. Andrea, Michael Cohen has stuck to his story that Trump was in on the hush money payments and the false records every step of the way. How did the defense team handle that? Right off the bat, the defense tried to hit Cohen in the same way it tried to discredit Stormy Daniels by saying Cohen had an animus towards Trump. The defense quoted statements like when Cohen called Trump a cheeto-dusted cartoon villain

and showed how he sells t-shirts showing Trump in an orange jumpsuit. And also that Cohen essentially wouldn't shut up. He kept talking about this investigation despite pleas from the DA's office to remain quiet. The implication is that Cohen is helping the DA's case for the money or the fame or both. Cohen said he made about $3.4 million from two books he'd written about Donald Trump. Right. Okay. Did they get to the specifics of Cohen's testimony about how Trump was in on the hush money payment as well as the reimbursement scheme? Not so much. The defense did not talk about Cohen's testimony about Trump's role in directing the hush money

payments, did not get to the specifics of what Cohen testified to just this morning. The 11 checks, eight signed by Donald Trump himself with stubs that said they were for a quote, legal retainer. There was no legal retainer, Cohen said over and over today, just an agreement to reimburse him for the hush money. Andrea, when we spoke with you yesterday, you told us that Michael Cohen was calm. So what about today? How did he hold up on cross-examination? So it's certainly true he didn't remember the details of his anti-Trump utterances with the clarity. He remembered the events of 2016 to 2018, but he kept a

hold of himself on Cross. The emotion of the day came earlier on direct examination when Cohen described the events of 2017 when he was iced out of Trump world in many ways, but still continued his role as protector, lying to Congress about a Trump-Tower Moscow deal, misleading the Federal Elections Commission and lying to reporters by saying he alone authorized the hash money payment to Stormy Daniels. But then in April of 2019, it all caught up with him when the FBI raided his living quarters and his offices.

And then came the emotional moment when Cohen talked about speaking to Trump for what would be the last time. Cohen said Trump called him and said, don't worry, I am president of the United States. There's nothing here. I'm going to be staying in touch with you and you're going to be okay. Cohen said he felt reassured. Cohen was speaking directly to the jury at this point and they were looking right back at him.

Okay. But as we know, Cohen did not end up staying loyal to former President Trump. What did he have to say about that? Cohen said he was approached shortly after the raid by a lawyer who was close to the Trump team who told them he had friends in high places and could sleep well. But Cohen caught him sketchy. Four months later when presented with potential indictment Cohen said he decided to plead guilty to lying to banks, tax evasion and violating campaign finance laws. This last crime Cohen said he did on the behalf of and for the

benefit of Donald Trump. We also learned today Cohen's the last prosecution witness. The defense case starts next week and will be brief unless Trump testifies, which he still might. That is NPR's Andrea Bernstein outside the courthouse. Andrea, thank you. Thank you, Wanda. It was another heated day in the Manhattan courtroom where former President Trump's

hush money trial is being held. This afternoon, Trump's defense team began questioning Trump's once close ally and former fixer, Michael Cohen. The defense attempted to paint Cohen as an unreliable witness who would personally gain from Trump being convicted. To break down today's testimony, we've called up University of Baltimore law professor Kim Whaley. Welcome. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. So Kim, before the defense got their chance to question Cohen, the prosecution finished their direct questioning and they addressed Cohen's criminal history. In your view, was his testimony for the prosecution able to overcome his less than flattering

resume? Well, this is the fourth week of trial and there's been a lot of evidence sort of laying the groundwork for Michael Cohen's testimony through other witnesses that don't have his credibility issues as well as documents and even an audio recording of Donald Trump talking about the payment to a different person, Karen McDougall, not Stormy Daniels. So the government really was putting him on

to talk about direct conversations with Donald Trump as directing this hush money scheme. But I don't think his testimony standing alone was necessarily a problem given his credibility because of the prior evidence that's already been submitted. Do you think that Michael Cohen's testimony sufficiently tied Trump to the alleged falsified business records? Well, that will be, of course, for the jury to decide. But beyond a reasonable doubt, of course, it's the government's burden. But what that means is doubt for which the jury could give a reason.

And I think in this moment, the problem with the defense is there really isn't an alternative narrative other than that this was part and parcel of a bigger scheme and Donald Trump was probably behind it given again that they heard his voice talking about Karen McDougal and the Stormy Daniels payment was on the heels of the Access Hollywood tape and even Hope Hicks, one of his closest advisors testified the campaign was on fire, worried about the impact of loading on that particular issue. And so I think the rationale here is that adding on an extramarital affair could have tanked the entire campaign.

The defense began their cross-examination of Michael Cohen today and their job was to undermine his credibility. Do you think that they achieved that? Well, we're not done. I think given, you know, Michael Cohen has not been shy about his view of Donald Trump. I mean, his books are called Disloyal and Revenge, right? And that's what they tried to paint him as having an ulterior motive.

But I think the government's position is, you know, when he lied before, he was under the thumb of Donald Trump and Donald Trump sort of threw him under the bus, didn't bring him into the White House, didn't pay him his bonus and sort of left him out in the cold and he's done time, criminal time for a similar crime. That is, you know, he was, he pled guilty to federal crimes relating to this same hush money payment. So the jury has to ask themselves, why would he come forward in this moment and lie and not have lie and somehow told the truth before.

So but we'll have to see. I just it sounds like from people inside the courtroom, he was credible and the cross examination was a bit meandering. But again, they'll have a day off and then they'll be able to come in on Thursday. Right. As you mentioned, they've got a day off and then they'll be able to come in on Thursday. Wrap it up. Right. As you mentioned, they've got a day off. They come back on Thursday. What do you think we can expect there in about 30 seconds?

What do I think that we'll expect to see on Thursday? We will see this is the last witness, right? So the government will finish its case in chief. And then after we hear the additional cross-examination of Michael Cohen, whether they can really poke holes in those conversations he had, that's really a linchpin of the government's theory, then we'll see what the defense team brings on, including whether Donald Trump will testify, which I think is unlikely. SONIA DARA, D Kim Whaley, Kim, thank you. Thanks for having me again. Thanks for listening to Trump's Trials from NPR. Keep an eye out for more episodes like this

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