Trump's Trials - Unease at DOJ as Trump threats get even more blunt

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

President Trump is openly directing the Justice Department to go after his political adversaries, adding to a sense of unease inside the department about job security and ethical obligations. NPR's Carrie Johnson reports. Support NPR and hear every episode of Trump's Terms sponsor-free with NPR+. Sign up at plus.npr.org.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

You're listening to Trump's Terms from NPR. I'm Scott Detrow. We're going to be doing all sorts of things. Nobody ever thought was even possible. President Trump has brought back string to the White House. We can't just ignore the president's desires. This will be an entirely different country in a short period of time. Every episode of Trump's terms, we bring you NPR's latest coverage of the 47th president.

With a focus on actions and policies he is pursuing on his own terms and in the process, taking the presidency into uncharted territory. Today's story starts right after this. I'm Mary Louise Kelly in Washington. President Trump is openly directing the Justice Department to go after his political adversaries. In recent days, Trump singled out a New York state official, also a California senator, and a former FBI director as targets for prosecution. That is adding to a sense of unease inside the department. as in Pierce Carey Johnson has been fighting as she tracks this story. Hi, Carrie. Hey there. What does President Trump seem to want here?

The president posted on social media that he wants to see justice served. He wrote, quote, We can't delay any longer. It's killing our reputation and credibility. And he mentioned former FBI director Jim Comey, New York Attorney General Tish James, and Adam Schiff, the Democratic senator from California, all of them prominent Trump critics. Trump posted a day after the top prosecutor. Virginia left his job under pressure. That federal prosecutor concluded he would not pursue criminal charges that Trump had wanted against Tish James. So Trump's installed a new lawyer, Lindsay Halligan. She has no experience as a prosecutor. Most recently, Trump asked her to remove what he calls improper ideology from the Smithsonian Museums. How are these demands going down at the Justice Department? Not so well. Traditionally, the DOJs operated with a measure of independence from the White House.

That is not happening now, and people inside justice are afraid. Stacey Young used to work there. Now she runs a group to help Department of Justice employees called Justice Connection. This Attorney General sent a memo on day one that made it clear that Justice Department lawyers were the president's lawyers. And we are now seeing how that's playing out and how dangerous it is. After all, Stacey Young says, if the president's willing to fire a prosecutor for not pursuing his enemies, anybody at the Justice Department could get fired and some lawyers have

already quit because they're worried about crossing ethical lines and about how DOJ is being used as a weapon against Trump's enemies. But at the White House today, the press secretary Caroline Levitt said Trump was understandably frustrated with lawmakers and state officials who had investigated him. She said, we're not going to tolerate gaslighting from anyone in the media or anyone on the other side who's trying to say that it's the president who's weaponizing the DOJ. I'm thinking, Carrie, about the history here. This is not the first time the Justice Department has been found itself in a hard place. Is this different?

Well, yeah, it is, I think. Certainly in the Nixon years, public servants at DOJ really felt a squeeze between what President Nixon wanted and what the law required. But even Nixon was not so clear and open about what he wanted to happen like Trump is now. I reached out to Professor Stephen Salzberg at George Washington University Law School for his take. I think the president's announcement about what he wanted. he wants his Department of Justice to do is so out of line with our history of promoting equal justice under law. Salsberg says it looks like the Trump White House is insisting that career prosecutors use their power to make life hell for people who challenge Donald Trump and on the

other side of the coin to drop investigations or pardon people who support the president like the people who rioted at the Capitol four years ago. Briefly, Carrie, what are the remaining outside checks on the Justice Department? Now, there are grand juries and judges we've seen some of them check the DOJ in terms of the federal occupation here in D.C. the last few months. Some of that atmosphere may carry over into other cases as some of these targets of Trump make claims of selective or vindictive prosecution. We'll have to see how judges take those cases. And here's Carrie Johnson. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

And before we wrap up, a thank you. A thank you. you to our NPR Plus supporters who hear each show without sponsored messages and of course who help protect independent journalism. If you are not a supporter yet, you can visit plus.npr.org to find out how you can get a ton of podcast perks across dozens of NPR shows, like bonus episodes, exclusive merchandise, and more. Again, that's plus.npr.org. I'm Scott Detrow. Thanks for listening to Trump's terms from NPR. Thank you.