Trump's Trials - Unpacking the latest controversy surrounding Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth continues to find himself in controversy. He shared details with his wife and brother minutes after being updated on the Yemen strikes by a senior military official. NPR's Tom Bowman has the story.Support NPR and hear every episode of Trump's Terms sponsor-free with NPR+. Sign up at plus.npr.org.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Support for NPR comes from the PsySims Foundation since 1985, supporting advances in science, education, and the arts towards a fairer, more just, and civil society. More information is available at psysimsfoundation.org. I'm Scott Detro and you're listening to Trump's Terms from NPR. We're going to be doing all sorts of things nobody ever thought was even possible. It's going to be a very aggressive first hundred days of the new Congress. Unpredictable, transformative next four years. The United States is going to take off like a rocket ship. Each episode, we bring you NPR's coverage of President Trump acting on his own terms.

And that means sometimes doing things that no American president has tried before. NPR is covering it all in stories like the one you are about to hear right after this. Support for NPR comes from the PsySims Foundation since 1985, supporting advances in science, education, and the arts towards a fairer, more just, and civil society. More information is available at psysimsfoundation.org. I'm Elsa Chang, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth had another unauthorized chat on Signal last

month. The New York Times first reported this and NPR has confirmed that Hegseth used his personal cell phone to provide his wife, brother, and lawyer with classified information about imminent airstrikes on Houthi targets in Yemen. This was on the same day that Hegseth provided similar information in a signal chat with senior U.S. officials, as well as a journalist who was mistakenly added to that group. All of this has raised questions about Hegseth's viability in the position, and Piers Tom Bowman joins us now. Hi, Tom. Hey, Elsa. Okay, so much has piled up here, as we just mentioned.

Last month, Jeffrey Goldberg, the editor of The Atlantic, was added to a signal group where Hegseth provided minute-by-minute updates on plans for airstrikes that were about to happen. And, and Tom, what we are talking about now, just so I understand, is a totally separate, different signal communication, yeah? Yeah, that's right. I'm told he used his Pentagon cell phone for the first call and at the same time used his personal cell to send the same information to another group chat that included his wife, brother, and his lawyer. The information was highly classified, included flight times for US warplanes, bombing targets, weapons to be used, minute-by-minute details. He was getting through secure communications from senior military officers with Central Command. And those on this call did not have clearances to get this

information, which is closely guarded. Usually, also such details of pending airstrikes are not even shared with Capitol Hill until the attacks are finished. Right, because if an adversary were able to intercept that signal communication, they could alert the Houthis about the attacks, right? No, that's right. An adversary could possibly intercept such information on this non-secure signal, check and pass it on to the Houthis. You know, already the Houthis have shut down two US Predator drones, so you can imagine the threat here. I know the New York Times interviewed F-18 pilots

after reports of that first signal chat last month, and they were pretty upset about this lack of security awareness. One pilot told the Times, you don't want to telegraph that we're about to show up on someone's doorstep. That puts the crew at risk. Now, after the first signal chat, I had retired military officers reach out to me, and they

were just stunned that this could happen and said, if others did this, they would at least lose their clearances and maybe be criminally charged. Well, what's been the response from Hegseth and from the White House? Well, Hegseth was at the White House Easter egg roll today and did not address the second signal chat directly, but instead said anonymous sources, disgruntled former employees were behind this. He said they, quote, slash and burn people

and ruin the reputations. President Trump, at the same event, praised Hegseth and called the story false. Let's listen. Pete's doing a great job. Everybody's happy with him. We have the highest recruitment numbers story falls. Let's listen. Well we know the first signal chat was not fake news because a journalist was mistakenly placed on that chat by a White House official and put out some details of what they were talking about. Now the

Pentagon Inspector General is looking into that one and will likely add this second chat to the investigation. And I am told by a source that the White House is considering replacing Hegseth, but White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt denied our report. When Hegseth is blaming, quote, disgruntled employees there, who is he talking about exactly? Well, several employees were fired and they said they don't know why. And finally, another employee, John Oliot, who left, wrote in Politico that this month has been total chaos, a major distraction for the president, and it's hard to see Hegseth

remaining much longer. But of course, that's up to President Trump. That is NPR's Tom Bowman. Thank you, Tom. You're welcome. Before we wrap up, a reminder, you can find more coverage of the incoming Trump administration on the NPR Politics Podcast, where you can hear NPR's political reporters break down the day's biggest political news with new episodes every weekday afternoon.

And thanks, as always, to our NPR Plus supporters who hear every episode of the show without sponsor messages. You can learn more at plus.npr.org. I'm Scott Detrow. Thanks for listening to Trump's terms from NPR. Support for NPR comes from the Psi Sims Foundation since 1985, supporting advances in science, education, and the arts towards a fairer, more just, and civil society. More information is available at PsiSimsFoundation.org.