Trump's Trials - What Trump's pick for chief of staff reveals about women who work for him

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

Trump campaign manager Susie Wiles will be the first woman to serve as White House chief of staff. Annie Karni of the New York Times tells NPR's Steve Inskeep what her selection reveals about women in Trump's inner circle — and why they sometimes fare better than men.Each episode of Trump's Terms, host Scott Detrow curates NPR coverage of the incoming Trump administration. Support NPR and hear every episode sponsor-free with NPR+. Sign up at plus.npr.org.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

You're listening to Trump's Terms from NPR. I'm Scott Detro. We will have really great strong people. Donald Trump is unstoppable. Make America healthy again. The future is gonna be amazing. Yeah! Each episode we bring you NPR's latest coverage

of the incoming Trump administration and the people who will run it. Cabinet secretaries, political advisors, military leaders. NPR is following their agenda and their path to power to bring you stories like the one you're about to hear right after this. I'm Steve Inskeep. We're following President-elect Trump

as he begins to staff his administration. One of the first appointments was of Susie Wiles, the campaign manager, soon to be the first woman to serve as White House Chief of Staff. Big job. So how involved will women be in a second Trump administration? New York Times congressional correspondent Annie Carney covered Trump's first term and she's on the line. Good morning. Good morning, Steve. Okay. So early in the first administration, you wrote about how men were constantly quitting or being fired. Anthony Scaramucci, Reitz Priebus, all these guys, while some women seem to be survivors. Why would that be?

That's right. The women, the Kellyanne Conways, the Sarah Sanders, the Hope Hicks, Ivanka, these people stayed the whole time or left on their own terms. And I think the top line reason is that Trump didn't see them as direct competition in the same way he might have seen not like in the caricature of Steve Bannon pulling the strings from behind the scenes and him just being Steve Bannon's puppet. That was never how any of these women positioned themselves when they worked in the White House. And that kind of level of direct competition is not something that serves someone well working for Trump.

I don't want to psychoanalyze here too much. But you know, if you're a guy trying to be a strong manly man, does a man just automatically seem like more of a threat to you? I mean, possibly, yes. And these women who survived there kind of play along with him. There's no evidence that they challenged him or wanted to be seen as kind of the main player. They were oftentimes obsequious to him. Like I remember at the inaugural

ball when he called out Kellyanne Conway, she smiled and curtsied. Ivanka famously laughed along when Trump back in the day said if she wasn't his daughter, he'd want to date her. They are willing to play the role that he wants them to be in, and that allows them to survive and actually have great power in his circle. He's also someone who like way back to his real estate days

has actually considered himself a professional promoter of women. Barbara Rez was a senior person at the Trump Organization in his real estate world, who at the time it was really rare to have a woman at that level, and his father, Fred Trump, vehemently disagreed with his decision to promote her. So he has long thought of himself as kind of an equal opportunity promoter. Well, this is very interesting. Should, should this then complicate the idea of Trump and women, uh, that is discussed among Democrats, of course.

Well, the women who are loyal to Trump absolutely think so. They like to point to their own experiences with him saying, you know, he, Kellyanne Conway says I rose farther in Trump world than I did in a career in Republican politics. Ivanka Trump says, he treated me exactly the same as he treated my brothers. And they always point to their own experiences with him, which is not, that's fine, but it doesn't mean that he's not,

hasn't been found liable for sexual abuse. It doesn't mean he doesn't regularly make sexist attacks. It doesn't mean that his policies are good for women. They lean on just their personal experiences to defend him, which is a very weak argument for defending someone's record on women. The bottom line is that both things can be true. He can be liable for sexual abuse and have treated a few women in his circle with respect. Where does Nikki Haley fit into all of this?

She endured the first administration, then ran against him and has been told she will be out of this administration. Yeah, I think she's a great example. She's someone who endured the first administration. She left on her own terms. She left, he gave her an Oval Office press conference where they sat side by side in chairs and he praised her.

She called Jared Kushner a genius, I remember in that press conference and left like a star. Then she challenges him and he has said, there will be no place for Nikki Haley in my administration. She offered herself as a surrogate on the campaign trail and he never wanted that even though people around him were concerned that he's not doing enough to reach out to women. There is no place for women in his circle if they go against him. I mean, that might be true for men and women alike, but she's out. She is no longer considered loyal. And we hear there's news this morning that he has appointed or he wants to appoint

Elise Stefanik, the House representative from New York, who's been a loyal Trump defender to be UN ambassador. Oh, interesting, which is Haley's position. Let me ask before we go about Susie Wiles, the new chief of staff, what do you make of that appointment? This is a little different. First of all, this is the first time a woman in his West Wing has the top job.

And she's someone who actually is seen as the obvious person to take this job. It's only a benefit to him that she's a woman. That will help look like he's promoting women. But this is just someone who I think detractors and supporters alike think is the right person for this job. A professional who's been able to deal with them. Annie Carney of the New York Times, thanks so much for your insights. Thank you.

And before we wrap up, a thank you to our NPR Plus supporters, who hear each show without sponsored messages and of course who help protect independent journalism. If you are not a supporter yet, you can visit plus.npr.org to find out how you can get a ton of podcast perks across dozens of NPR shows, like bonus episodes, exclusive merchandise, and more. Again, that's plus.npr.org. I'm Scott Detro. Thanks for listening to Trump's Terms from NPR.