TRUNEWS with Rick Wiles - TruNews Classic - Gordon Thomas - Author of "Seeds of Fire - China and the Story Behind the Attack on America"

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

TruNews Classic: Rick Wiles interviews Gordon Thomas - Author of "Seeds of Fire - China and the Story Behind the Attack on America" (January 29, 2002)Rick Wiles, Doc Burkhart. Airdate 5/23/23 You can partner with us by visiting TruNews.com/donate, calling 1-800-576-2116, or by mail at PO Box 690069 Vero Beach, FL 32969. It’s the Final Day! The day Jesus Christ bursts into our dimension of time, space, and matter. Now available in eBook and audio formats! Order Final Day from Amazon today! https://www.amazon.com/Final-Day-Characteristics-Second-Coming/dp/0578260816/ Apple users, you can down the audio version on Apple Books! https://books.apple.com/us/audiobook/final-day-10-characteristics-of-the-second-coming/id1687129858 The Fauci Elf is a hilarious gift guaranteed to make your friends laugh! Order yours today! https://tru.news/faucielf

This is True News, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help us God. I'm Doc Burkhart, sitting in for Rick Wiles. Rick is not here today, but don't worry, you're not going to miss any of Rick because we're going to be airing an interview that Rick did many years ago that you're going to find extremely fascinating as it talks about many of the current events today and the involvement of China and its connection to Israel. We'll tell you more about that here in just a moment. Before we get started, Rick is at the National Religious Broadcasters Convention today, and we'll be back in this chair tomorrow. So he's only going up there for one day.

It's very difficult when you do a daily newscast to be able to go to some of these events that are very, very important to be at. And he has some very high level meetings that he needed to attend. And he asked me to sit here and tell you a little bit about an interview that he did back in 2002. And Rick, over the years, over the 25 years of this ministry, has done over 5,000 interviews. It's hard to even comprehend. Many of you have listened along the years and have joined with us in hearing some of those fascinating interviews. One of the most prolific guests that Rick had the opportunity to speak to on a regular basis was an author by the name of Gordon Thomas. Now, Gordon Thomas was the

author of a number of books, including Gideon Spies and a few others. But the interview we're going to be sharing with you today was first aired January 29th, 2002. And it's based on this book by Gordon Thomas called Seeds of Fire. And this is one of the few copies that are available now. And it talks about China and the story behind the attack on America. Some fascinating connections that Gordon Thomas, a deep researcher and with so many connections in the intelligence community around the world, provides documentation that shows the connection between what was going on in September 2001 with Osama bin Laden and his connections not only to the U.S. but also to China and the connections over the years between China and the Mossad.

Fascinating book. And the interview itself is one that you're going to sit back and say, I wish I'd known that information before. So here is this interview, Rick Wiles with author Gordon Thomas, author of the book Seeds of Fire from January 29, 2002. Gordon, welcome to the program. I'm delighted to be here, Rick. Thank you for inviting me. Well, I'm very honored to have you as a guest.

I've got to tell you this, Mr. Thomas, I read a lot of books. A lot of books are sent to me every week at this office, and this is one of the best books I have read in my life, Seeds of Fire, China and the Story Behind the Attack on America. I can't put this book down. I have been just absolutely engrossed in this book. You have done an incredible task in putting together just mind-boggling information covering everything from Red China to September 11th terrorist attacks of Salman bin Laden, the Israeli Mossad, MKUltra.

This is a breathtaking book. Well, I don't know what to say, but thank you. I see the book really as a wake-up call for every American who cares about the future of this country, because essentially the focus of the book really as a wake-up call for every American who cares about the future of this country, because essentially the focus of the book is to show that we are facing a major threat from China, both an economic and intelligence threat, but above all, possibly a nuclear threat. You know, one of the things that pleased me, though, when the book was published, I thought, well, the CIA will say nothing. But they were so stunned that I had obtained the documentation.

By the way, the book contains over 100 pages of never-before-seen documents. But the CIA actually confirmed the existence of one of the most important documents in the book, which is the briefing paper for President George Bush when he came into office and subsequently by George Tenet, the Director General of the CIA. And perhaps the best thing I can do is to quote from it directly. It says, China by 2015 will have deployed tens to several tens of missiles with nuclear warheads targeted against the United States. It will also have hundreds of shorter-range ballistic and cruise missiles for use.

Some of these shorter-range missiles will have nuclear warheads. Most will be armed, of course, with conventional warheads. And it goes on to say that this is going to come between 2015 and now. Twenty-four hours after the book was published, the CIA issued a public stating, very rare for them, I think, if not unheard of, to confirm this was so. And this appeared, of course, across every newspaper, I think, in America at the time. Now, what the book does is to examine not just China's attitude towards the United States, which itself is pretty important to understand. But secondly, it deals with the shift of emphasis and relationships between Israel and the United States. After all, Israel has been a key player for the U.S. in the Middle East,

and the building relationship between Israel and China. And I think, again, one significant event epitomizes that. It is the story of how after the U.S. spy plane was shot down or downed over the South China Sea, the first people who had access

to it, outside the Chinese intelligence, of course, were Mossad, the Israeli secret intelligence service. And the reason for this was twofold. One, Israel had originally had an understanding that the order which they placed and which President Clinton had approved of to obtain one of these spy planes for their own use would be confirmed by President Bush when he came into office.

President Bush canceled that order. China said, well, no problem. When that spy plane was brought down, it said, we'll make it available to you. And so Mossad sent a team of its own experts plus scientists from the Israeli scientific community to actually de-gut that plane. Now, Israel now knows as much as it needs to know about how that plane works and what its capability is. And that wouldn't have happened not so long ago, but there is a change in mood in Israel. And that mood is something that Seeds of Fire does explore, because central to that mood, of course, is this somewhat desperate attempt by former Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu, who is, of course,

trying to become Prime Minister of Israel, to have the greatest traitor, without a doubt, that America's ever had, which is Jonathan Pollard, released from his lifelong sentence. Now, as we speak here, Mr. Netanyahu is preparing to go and lobby George Bush in the White House to have him released. He's due in Washington again this week for that very purpose, this weekend coming. I want to stop you at this point. You say that under President Bill Clinton, the Clinton administration had promised Israel that they would get an American EP-3 spy plane. Was that information ever published?

No. I've been writing about intelligence for 25 years. And my background, very simply, on terms of knowing Israeli affairs, I spent two and a half years preparing my film about Mossad and my book, Gideon Spies, which deals with Mossad. It's the first time that Mossad, through the prime minister himself,

allowed me access to his directors, his field agents, and so on. It took me two and a half years to put it together. The film is called The Spying Machine. It was shown on PBS last year. It's been shown pretty well everywhere in the world now. But it did give me fairly unique access to them. But long before that, of course, I had worked with other intelligence services.

My own late father-in-law was a senior MI6 officer. That's the Overseas Service of British Intelligence. My great pal was William Buckley, the former station chief in Beirut, who was captured by the Hezbollah, cruelly tortured and executed. I knew people like William Colby. I've interviewed most of the directors of the CIA, from Colby, Casey, Richard Helms, and so on. So I'm fairly well-versed in understanding the intelligence work, and most of the stuff in Seeds of Fire, like those 100 pages of documents, has not surfaced before. And I think this is just one of the elements of the story of the spy plane.

But there's just so much in there. I mean, I've just been looking at the links between Israel, why it needs those links, why it feels that America isn't playing the game it wants to play. And only recently has there been a slight softening of position because twice Premier Sharon of Israel canceled trips to see Mr. Bush because he didn't feel it was suitable, in his view. Now, of course, President Bush is supporting the hard line against terrorism in Israel, particularly because of the suicide bombers. Let me ask you, why is there such a strong connection

between the Israeli Mossad and the Chinese intelligence agency? Well, the Chinese intelligence service, I mean, as I've indicated in the book, in effect, if you go to bed with a Chinese dragon, you're likely to get burnt alive in your bed. And the Israelis need to establish, because Israel survives more than any other state I know on the superior art of its intelligence. When the door was closed on it partly, and this can be particularly pinpointed very much when George Tenet, the CIA director, went to Israel last year, he was coolly received, and they didn't think he was up to much, to be honest with you, in terms of what they wanted.

Now, by then, Israel had already looked around, and the Chinese are always ready to step in anywhere where they feel the United States may be losing control. And when they saw there's an opportunity to move in with the Mossad, and Mossad welcomed this because it welcomes contact with all these intelligence services. And you have to, again, look what's in Seeds of Fire. Seeds of Fire details in great detail, backed by the documents and everything else,

how Mossad pulled off with the Chinese the greatest intelligence operation we know, they'd previously removed the stealth bomber secrets and things like that, but that was small compared to what they did at Los Alamos. And I devote a huge amount of space and time to explain exactly when we talk of the theft from Los Alamos of all our America's worthwhile nuclear secrets, which in fact is the West's worthwhile nuclear secrets. They were stolen in an operation which, for an operation, is breathtaking.

Its implications are stunning for the future of our security. And those documents and that stuff was stolen from Los Alamos, and it came to Israel, and from there it was given to the Chinese as a joint operation. This is terrifying because what I've tried to explain, again, in Seeds of Fire, is how Israel recruited a figure who in his own lifetime was a legend, that's Robert Maxwell, a newspaper tycoon, who owned New York newspaper, published in Empire, like the Macmillan Publishing Company and so on in New York.

He was one of the prime Mossad agent assets. And through him, Los Alamos was originally penetrated. And it was done through this piece of software, which was developed by a small company in Washington called Insul. They developed this piece of software, which is a tracking device. It is perhaps the most sophisticated tracking device still in existence. Mossad, using Rafi Aytan, its deputy director of operations. And by the way, I interviewed Aytan. He's proud of it, what he did. He says it's a brilliant operation.

What are you complaining about? Are you talking about the software is the promise software? Yes, I am Itan. He's proud of it, what he did. He says, it's a brilliant operation. What are you complaining about? Are you talking about the software is the promise software? Yes, I am, yes. Itan lifted that with the help of people like, well, Ed Meese is identified in my book, and I've yet to hear from Mr. Meese who wishes to sue about this.

He's welcome to try. Earl Bryan, who is in prison at the moment, he's coming out in a few months. A whole stack of people, which leads us right into the Reagan White House, were involved in this. Some unwittingly, some not. And what happened, Israel obtained this. Initially, they parted with it to the Soviets, the Russians. Indeed, in the hope of retrieving Jews out of the Soviet Union.

Then they had teamed up by then also with the Chinese, and the Chinese had this, they deconstructed it, that means took it apart, the software, rebuilt it again to their purposes, and improved it, no doubt, over the years. And they used this to penetrate Los Alamos. And this is what happened in the late 1990s when that poor old Dr. Wu was picked up

and accused of being the spy master of all time out of Los Alamos. He was nothing but a patsy for the operation. The operation was run entirely out of Beijing. Again, I identify that in the book. Are you talking about Dr. Wenho Li? Yeah, I am, yes, Winho Lee. And this operation, you know, included, of course, setting this up

was, as I said, Jonathan Pollard. Now, Pollard is, as we know, is sitting in North Carolina, in prison. Two weeks ago, he was secretly visited by Benjamin Netanyahu, and Bibi told him, and his wife has confirmed this, told him, you won't have to wait here forever, Jonathan. You'll be free soon. Now, if that's going to happen, I can tell you,

the ructions within the U.S. intelligence community right now is already considerable about this, but George Tenet has made it clear that if Pollard is released, it will be a resigning matter. I look at that, but, you know, that's another element of the book I look at. But perhaps I think the most interesting element is the relationship between Osama bin Laden and China. This is something that I've developed out of the book, and it's worthwhile discussing as well, because it raises very interesting questions about China. Three times last year, bin Laden visited China.

He went to Beijing twice, and he went to Shanghai once. The first time he was to Beijing was to meet with the PLO. He met with their senior generals and their planners. And the second, and that was to discuss the possible providing arms for the Taliban. That first meeting was in February 2001. The second meeting was when he went to the Shanghai First Military Hospital in late May. As we know, bin Laden suffers from a kidney complaint,

and he was advised that he needed treatment, but he said no, he couldn't. The third time he went to China was in August, around about the 14th or 16th, we cannot be more precise than that at the moment of last year, just nearly less than a month before 9-11. And he went to firm up a deal, which would be signed in Kabul, Afghanistan, almost on the hour that the twin trade towers were falling. Now, at that meeting was a high-level Chinese delegation from Beijing. They were led by army generals, scientists,

members of three of the biggest corporations in China. And the intention was, of course, to provide the Taliban with a whole host of military equipment, like an early warning system, a satellite tracking system, and so on. And I have the, I'm looking at the document here now. I have it in my hands. And the company was the Huawei Technologies Corporation, ZTE, who were going to provide the phone system, the advanced warning system. And, of course, we should remember that Huawei was the one Chinese firm that was involved in helping Iraq bolster its own air defenses by selling Saddam Hussein communications equipment in the run-up to the Gulf War. Now, this deal was worth a billion.

The Chinese signed it. Luckily for us, it was not ratified because, of course, for once China had miscalculated our response, the West's response, and they were so horrified they backed off, didn't sign it. But here's the thing. What is China's attitude towards us today? Well, while we were celebrating New Year just now, the Chinese were also celebrating, but they had a very different version of their celebration.

They were putting out tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, I think, if you want to, of videos, DVDs, books, and so on. These had been produced by the Xinhu Information Agency, Beijing Television, and China Central Television, all of which, of course, are controlled by the government anyway. And these were extraordinary. I have a copy of one of them here. And this shows scenes from Hollywood films which have been spliced between shots of 9-11, and of course, including these scenes from Hollywood film, are footage from the remake of Godzilla

in which a monster destroys New York buildings. And as Godzilla is attacking the buildings, you mix through and you see these horrific real-life images of what is happening in New York on that day. And you hear the commentator say words to this effect, watch this now as a humbling blow against an arrogant nation. And then the commentary goes on as we see the Twin Towers falling and people running understandably through the streets of New York. The commentary says, quote,

Look at the panic in their faces as they wipe off the dust and crawl out of the strong buildings. Now just a heap of rubble. We will never fear these people again. They have shown themselves to be soft-bellied paper tigers. Now, when I spoke to the Beijing government about this, I said, why are you doing this? What do you think you're going to achieve in terms of our relationship with you? And they said, well, we're a democracy.

I mean, you've got to laugh at that, haven't you, when you see this? Gordon, you're saying that the Chinese communist government, I mean, when we talk about the news media, it's all the same in China. You're saying that after September 11th, the Chinese Communist government cranked out videos telling the Chinese people to look at the fear and panic of the American people running from the rubble of the World Trade Center? Mm-hmm. The videos are available. I have one copy of it here.

And they have put this out, and this was put out on New Year's Eve. This was only a month ago, less than a month. And another piece from the commentary, and this again shows pictures showing the Pentagon and the Twin Towers collapsing.

And it says, this is America the whole world has wanted to see. Blood debts are being repaid in blood. America has bombed other countries and used its hegemony to deny the natural rights of others without paying the price. Who until now has dared to avenge the hurt inflicted by unaccountable Americans? Unquote. until now has dared to avenge the hurt inflicted by unaccountable Americans, unquote. Now, that is from the commentary of official video put out by Beijing television. I mean, this is how they feel about it. So I think it's very important that people should understand this, you know, because they are clearly boasting that China will someday attack the United States of America and that the Americans can be taken.

No question. Why have we not heard about this? I mean, I already know the answer to this question, but I like hearing people like yourself confirm it. Why haven't we heard about this from the mainstream news media? Why are no U.S. senators or public officials in the United States talking about this from the mainstream news media. Why are no U.S. senators or public officials in the United States talking about this video? The short

answer is I think there's a simple thing here, two words, invested interest. You know, big business in America is what's made America what it is big. I spent a year in China, and I can tell you, it is packed with American businessmen trying to do business all the time,

led by, well, when I was there, I was there during Tiananmen Square, first of all, and I saw what happened. And just to give you an idea, in the week before Tiananmen Square, we were getting, we being correspondents like myself, were getting daily briefings out of the U.S. Embassy in Beijing. And we were shown satellite photographs taken by U.S. satellites showing the city being encircled by a number of Chinese armies who were poised to deal with the students. I remember asking the public affairs officer, well, shouldn't we be telling these kids, these only kids in the square are four,

you know, young students, to get the hell out of there? And they said, no. We didn't get it. They got into it. They get out of it. We don't have to do anything about this. Also, I was told by a member of Kissinger,

Henry Kissinger, of Kissinger Associates, that, you know, we're here to do business with China. We're not here to support these children and their rather radical ideas. And those radical ideas are summarized in one word, which you won't find in Mandarin. The word, of course, is the children of the month, and one word only put life into it. The word is democracy. And I remember the night of the final attack on the square, that June night, very warm, beautiful night. The Statue of Liberty was standing there, which the children and the students had made out of papier-mâché and what have you, and suddenly there came the sound of gunfire coming up towards the square. And then came the tanks. There were eight

abreast and hundreds and thousands of troops, hundreds, maybe thousands initially, we could see behind them. And they were advancing like something out of an old-fashioned war movie. They would kneel, fire, advance, kneel, fire, advance. Well, most of us took for cover. I remember I was with, well, Dan Rather was near me at the time, the CBS correspondent. He had had all his lines cut. Of course, they cut all forms of outside communication in that last hour of the massacre. And I was a print media reporter then, and so I could still scribble on my notepad and also get some sounds on my portable tape recorder.

But the thing that sticks in my mind forever, and the book has pictures of this, as you may have seen, it shows the, I have a tank, I saw tanks advancing to form squares. They'd form, four tanks would form a square surrounding a group of people, then the tanks would advance on each other, and then they'd pull square, surrounding a group of people. Then the tanks would advance on each other. And then they'd pull back. And those people became people who'd been crushed under the tracks of those tanks. This, to me, for my long time in this business, I'm now 69 nearly, a long time in this business, I've seen nothing more horrific, nothing more frightening than to see these young people crushed ruthlessly.

And then, of course, they were shooting at everybody. You know, they're Chinese. And so I headed, like everybody else did, for the Beijing Hotel. And there from the roof, I watched the final end of that massacre, which was helicopters swooping in and picking up the remains of these poor students and taking them out to huge funeral pyres burning in the western hills outside Beijing. And I tell you, the smell of scorching flesh, wow, it just spread over the city for days. And that's my own eyewitness testimony. But I stayed on in China.

I've got to tell you, I mean, it's just, I'm just mesmerized by your experiences and the information that is in this book. I think what you witnessed in Tiananmen Square is a foretaste of what is coming to most of the Western world if we do not wake up to the threat of red China. These people are ruthless, and they will conquer unless they're stopped uh gordon in the in the uh early sections of your book you talk about win holy in the las alamos yeah uh theft of our our nuclear secrets you've got a totally different spin on this story than anything that we've heard through the mainstream media.

You're speculating that Dr. Lee may have been working on a project called Project HP, Holographic Portal. That's right. Tell us about this. Well, this is part of the work going on in what is known as Area 51.

Now, I think that before we get into that just briefly, I think it's worthwhile telling you something about this place. You know, we've recently been hearing a great deal about anthrax and the scare it has to America. We've heard all about it. Do you know where the biggest anthrax manufacturing center is in the world? It's in close to Area 51. It's in Nellis Air Force Base, which is cut off now from anywhere, any touch with the outside world.

I finally persuaded Ari Fleischer, who is, as you know, President Bush's spokesman, to reluctantly confirm to me, which he did early in January, that this center does exist. It's called Camp 12. It is where we have manufactured more types of anthrax. There's 43 altogether different versions of anthrax, but we've manufactured them all in the U.S. And it's very important to understand.

He said, I said, why are we doing this, Mr. Fleischer? He said, well, we need to know how terrorists would react to this, how they would do it. Now, it now transpires from my own inquiries, there's a strong possibility that we know that the anthrax, almost certainly now, does not come from bin Laden and his terror group, Al-Qider, that almost certainly comes from what Mr. Fleischer described, I think, with considerable accuracy. He said this is almost a demented scientist who, Dr. Strangelove, who may have taken umbrage with the establishment.

So the proposition is that he suggests, and I believe it to be very feasible, is that the anti-fracture has caused such terror in the United States, of course, has been spread from within. Now, that's just to set the scene about Area 51. My information in Area 51 comes from a respected source. It's Dr. Boylan, who is an expert in this field. He's studied this for some time. He lives out near Sacramento, California, and he is a very careful researcher. And I've talked, he's talked to me via email

and sent me a great deal of stuff. But what is going on there is so amazing. Whenever you try to even get near the place, you just cannot get into the area at all. But as a result of my inquiries into MKUltra and what goes on, because this center, what's happening out in Area 51, is without little doubt involved in a continuation of MKUltra. Now, people would say, well, that's a long time ago, MKUltra, wasn't it?

Wasn't that in the 50s when we were concerned that the Chinese and the Koreans and the Russians maybe had solved the answer to brainwashing because of those American pilots who stood up and made these abject confessions in the North Korean War? Soon after the shot down. Yeah, that's perfectly true. That's how MKUltra came about. But as I show in the book, and I quote from one remarkable lady called Kathleen Sullivan, whose affidavit I reproduced, she says that long after MKUltra started, she was being trained by the CIA to be, in effect, a brainwashed assassin. Now, she says she was trained to go on black ops and kill people. She lives today in Tennessee. She is a remarkable woman. And, you know, I have to be careful to

protect her because she's still very scared. But she did prepare that affidavit, which is reproduced in Seeds of Fire. And it really is a shocking document. It really is a frightening document of one young woman who was recruited by the Central Intelligence Agency. And there are plenty like her, from what I've discovered. Gordon, her description in your book is absolutely bone-chilling. If what she told you is true, to me this is beyond the capability of human beings doing this to another human being. It really is demonic.

I know it is demonic. And when I first heard the story, I'd been in touch with Kathleen for some years. And when I first heard the testimony, I thought, no, this can't be true either. I thought this was incredible. absolutely too much to take in. But then I remember I felt that too when I went to Montreal, first of all, to follow up the trail of that extraordinary doctor, Dr. Ewan Cameron, who began his unusual life by being sent by the American government in 1945 to decide whether Rudolf Hess was sane or not. He was a psychiatrist, Dr. Cameron, to decide whether he was sane or not to stand trial at Nuremberg.

He decided he was sane. And then Dr. Cameron set off on his own one-man mission to discover how to brainwash people. He was encouraged to do this by the CIA. He made what I can only term as a Faustian bargain with the CIA, that in return for unlimited funds from the secret slush fund of MKUltra, he could do what he liked. And what he did at perhaps the most prestigious hospital in Canada,

and one of the most in the whole of North America, which is McGillivray University Hospital, at the Allen Memorial Institute, which is a hospital at the time for the mentally ill, he took a huge number of his patients and subjected them to the most terrifying ordeals much of which unknown to miss Sully you know a Kathleen Sullivan she had an encountered the same thing as she couldn't know what I knew at the time

when I began to investigate her therefore I began increasingly that Kathleen Sullivan is telling the truth about this because at the McGill Allen Memorial Institute, Professor Cameron, then promoted to full professorship, built in the basement of his own hospital what he thought a Chinese interrogation center would look like. And in this center, he subjected his patients to the most terrifying ordeals. He suggested they were put to sleep for weeks, and they were force-fed, they were starved, they were kept in total sensory deprivation conditions.

One woman describes how she was shot in the eye repeatedly with blasts of hot air to see how she'd react to that and so on now you see if you say it's really true well let me tell you I was the only witness called by the survivors of these terrible experiments way back there's 20 15 years ago I was called to give evidence against the Justice Department in Washington. And the Justice Department settled on the steps of the court with these survivors, there's nine of them.

Their story is coming from another book of mine I'm doing, finally at Long Pass, I'd tell that story too. The whole story of MKUltra. Is it minefield? Yeah, minefield. It is minefield. I'm going to ask, when is this book going to be finished? We hope to have it ready later this year.

It's been a huge journey for me because it's also been a journey into even the darkest side of the Central Intelligence Agency. Its whole involvement in germ warfare, biological warfare, and so on. And this has taken me a long time to put together. Years. You see, I tend to take time. Firstly, the China, the story of Seeds of Fire. I originally wrote it just as an account of tenement. Then I thought, no, that's not going to work for me. And I put it aside because the memories are too fresh

of all those children going down and all those students. I wanted to bring to the straightforward objectivity. I don't want to, you know, I don't like to be, I don't think you should be emotionally involved in horror in the sense that you don't need to love the story, it just sits there, it just needs to be told as it was, exactly. And I suppose, in a way without boasting unduly, I suppose the only, oh God, will you hold on a second? Yes. You'll have to call me back. I'm on the radio. I'm on the radio. Let's call you back.

Sorry about that. That's another call. Hello? That happens here, too. Oh, I'm sorry, but I can't deal with that now. I have to. Can we pick up on this one? Yes Let me, for the sake of our listeners, let me read from your book, from the affidavit from Kathleen Ann Sullivan. This is a woman who says she was a victim of the CIA MKUltra experiments. She said, the CIA sought to break the minds and wills of their subjects and to create altered states of consciousness that they could then train and control.

I was one of their subjects. The experiments were all too successful in my mind and life. Some of the things that they did to me to break my will and control my mind and life were forced druggings, including opium, hallucinogens, experimental drugs, electrical shocks, and torture, including bare live wire, stun guns, stun belts, and several series of ECTs designed to shatter my personality and fragment my memories, forced harm to animals, light probes done in darkened rooms, occult ritualized torture, and sensory deprivation, sometimes combined with drugs, including in padded rooms, buried coffins, large black boxes, saltwater tanks, drownings and resuscitations, hangings and resuscitations, threats made against myself,

my pets, and the lives of my loved ones, starvation, isolation, false imprisonment, hypnosis, being put in small crates or cages, some electrified. And it goes on to describe other just horrible things that she was subjected to. Gordon, I mean, I don't even think the mafia would do this to their own people. But of course, some of the mafia were recruited to do this in some of the cases. Some of the horror, some of the brutal horror. The reason I can say that again with, I hope, credible authority is this. The evidence I've uncovered between the links between the CIA and its use of organized crime, in a sense, to do its dirty work for it is quite remarkable.

I interviewed a man in Montreal. His name is Alexandre Legault. He's a former U.S. Naval intelligence officer who says he cannot return to the United States because he's in fear of his life because of what he knows. He was involved in the MKUltra project. He was involved in the kind of work that Kathleen Sullivan has described. He says that the only reason he stays alive is because he holds enough documentation in a secret place, that's his words, not mine, which if they hauled him back would, of course, he would reveal. But the thing is, I've talked to the Galt at least 20 times two years ago and late last year. And, you know, it's very hard to believe he's not telling the truth. I've spoken to a number of other MKUltra survivors who have never heard or met Kathleen and Sullivan, and yet they too recount similar stories.

So, you know, on the border of credibility, I would say she's very high up there on the scale. She's really telling what I believe to be the truth. I have documents here from her, which is just incredible. I mean, they're just a stack of stuff which she sent me. I've also got a video, which is the testimony of 23 other women and two men who had been subjected

over the years to similar experiments. They live all over North America. Some live out on the Hawaiian Islands. And I'm finding it very hard to believe they'd all got together to concoct this video. They'd just been put together by one person. They said, talk to me in your camera at home

and then send me what you have. And this has been all put together as one video. And it's an astonishing video. And it's astonishingly frightening to watch it. Who produced the video? Who produced it? Kathleen. She wanted it. She wanted it to watch it. Who produced the video? Who produced it? Yes. Kathleen.

She wanted it. She wanted it to come out. And she sent it to me and said, if you want to use this, use it. And I said, I will. Yep. What's happening, in fact, I am now working with two European filmmakers

who want to do this. One is David Monaghan, who is an award-winning filmmaker with some very prestigious awards behind him, who has done his own investigation separate from mine. He says, look, I've concluded these people are telling the truth, absolutely.

And he's put it together for the BBC and with German television as well. So, you know, the evidence is there. The question is, why doesn't it come out? Well, the question is, why doesn't it come out? Well, the question is, why doesn't it come out? Because people want to cover things up. You know, one of the things I've learned in my quarter of a century or more

writing about intelligence, there is an unelected government, and never more so than in the United States, which is so open otherwise. But there is a behind that open government in Washington. There's a very unelected government, which is the government of secret intelligence. The intelligence community is what it is, a closed community. And to get in there and to get the truth out of that is a pretty powerful thing to try and do.

And I spent years putting this together. And that's why so far I've had no complaint. A few rumbles that this is going to cause problems sometime. But my only hope is to get the story out now. Get it out. Get it into public debate.

Get people talking about it. Get them to buy the book and make their own judgment. Gordon, is there a Nazi connection to the MKUltra experiments? Absolutely. You mean, were the Germans doing it? Yes, of course they were. They were trying to do it, not very successfully because they were too brutalized. You see, the great thing, if that's the word great, it's not the right word, the particularly

horrific thing about MKUltra was, of course, its sheer sophistication. They used doctors of great skills, psychiatrists, therapists, analysts, chemists. All these people worked in some 23 major hospitals in the U.S. alone. And what shocked me particularly, which I deal with, it was difficult for me. One of my good friends was a man called Dr. William Sargent, who was the author of Battle for the Mind, a great expert on brain, of mind control in the Chinese world. And William, I knew him well when I was a BBC producer, and I used him to do a number of programs. And he was fascinating. But what I didn't know until a very brave young woman called, she's now a medical professor herself,

called Anne White. She works in Canada. She came forward and told me, by sheer chance, she had heard what I was doing. She said, you know, I understand you have a high regard for the late Professor Sarge. I said, yes, I do. She said, says, you know, I understand you have a high regard for the late Professor Sargent. I said, yes, I do. She said, well, then you better look at this evidence, what he did to me. And when I read it, I died nearly, because here she was setting out

her own medical record showing how Dr. Sargent had conducted similar MK-Ultra experiments at one of the great teaching hospitals of London, St. Thomas' Hospital in London. And he had done this as secretly as Dr. Cameron had done it in McGill University, Montreal, Canada. And I began to realize, my God, where does this end?

There's a web here. It goes on. Then from Sydney, Australia, a doctor contacted me and said, I was involved in this in a very low capacity here in Sydney and you know I just wonder we talk about Nazi experiments we talk about Russian experiments all true they have done these terrible things and the Chinese particularly but we have a huge lot of things to answer for and it's those answers I've tried to explore again in Seeds of Fire, both the MKUltra area and everything else. But I'm saving most of the MKUltra stuff for the book that's coming called

Minefield, and that I think will cause, I hope, another wake-up call for Americans. But right now, I think, you know... Gordon, one more question regarding MKUltra, and then I want to move on to some of the other subjects. But regarding the Nazis, did the CIA export the German Nazis into the U.S. to become part of this program? They did indeed. I have a whole string of evidence which is linked to that. They had a program to bring them into Mary. Alan Walsh Dulles, with the help of his brother John Foster Dulles, agreed to that. They had a program to bring them into marriage. John Foster, Alan Walsh Dulles, with the help of his brother John Foster Dulles,

agreed to this. They brought out whole stacks of Nazis, scientists, doctors, what have you, who were then given new identities, their backgrounds scrubbed clean, and they have been allowed to operate for years within the U.S. community. And it is terrifying. You know, it's really frightening what goes on.

And I'm dealing with that at great length and producing the documents again and so on. But to go back to Seeds, which is, you know, I think it's the story of the current wake-up call threat that we should be paying attention to here. If the book has any relevance today, it is to make people sit up and say, oh my God, I better do something about this. And the first thing they can do is to ask their congressman, senator, why aren't you doing something about the situation with China? Why aren't you raising these important issues? Why aren't you even challenging the book? I don't mind them challenging me if they want to have an informed debate because I am certain of my

ground and I'm well prepared for them. That may be why they don't want to challenge me. How serious do you think the threat is right now to the United States of America from Regina? Well, it's getting closer every day. There's no question about it.

One of the things I've tried to do again in SEEDS is to explore the subtext of that threat, which goes with the way China, as well as closing up to Israel, and the Israelis maybe are certainly aware of this, but they're prepared to take a chance, I think, in that respect. China is preparing Iraq, Iran, and there's something

we have overlooked, because we keep on thinking of Russia now as being our pal, and Putin has been a nice man, even though his background is less clean. But we have a situation here where China and Russia have entered into a pact, the first pact in 20 years, to a mutual assistance pact. And at this moment, Russia is providing the Chinese with a huge amount of technological input, which they've also stolen from the U.S., which they've also obtained from Israel. Because, you see, Israel, I suppose, to go back to Israel for a second, to me it was all summed up by David Kimshie, the former head of the think tank at Mossad. When I asked him to synthesize the whole attitude of Mossad's role in our secret world of

intelligence, he said it's very simple. It's Israel first, last, and always, always. Now, never forget that what we do is for Israel, because I raised with him the question of assassinations and so on, and he said, these are not assassinations like you talk about as murder. These are approved state, approved executions, And I thought, really? Is that how you see it, David? He said, I do, yes. And shortly afterwards, I was sitting in the Mossad headquarters during my two and a half years I spent doing my research. And I'm sitting in this room, and we're talking, a number of people.

And I brought up the subject again of how do they go about deciding who is to die and not to die without a fair open trial. And they explained these are terrorists and so on, and we have a list of them here, and we examined their background, we examined all the intelligence, and when we decide they cannot be brought to trial, then a decision is taken that they will be terminated. And I said, but isn't that really murder? And they said, no, because they pointed down to a door at the end of the room. You see, beyond that door sits the man who we are answerable to.

And I said, well, who is that exactly? And they said, that is the prime minister of the day. And almost on cue, almost like a terrible bad function duty show, in a sense, the door opens and around Dixie's head is Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu, who, of course, has authorized a number of executions, as we know, and he admits it. And they see it as a necessary way of dealing with terrorism. Now, recently, George Bush has also agreed that the CIA, which had been stopped from conducting these terminations, assassinations, under the edict of President Ford, who was horrified at what was going on, he has more or less indicated that the time has come to also take the leash off the CIA.

Now, the problem with that is this. The CIA, the current batch of CIA operatives, are not really trained up to speed in that area of Mossad and executions. So they're going to have to depend on Mossad to do the work for them. So when we read about executions of certain people who might be a threat to America, we might also wonder who actually carried that out. And Mossad inside the

United States may be one of our biggest enemies. And you're saying RCI is going to be relying on Mossad to do the work. Well, this is it. This is the problem, you see, because the point is, beggars can't be choosers, as I've often said in my lectures on this subject.

And it is a problem because the Israelis are so well entrenched in terms of intelligence gathering in the U.S. They have a... Mossad is a very small organization. It consists approximately of 1,200 plus a little more than 50

1,250 say full time staff but it has what are close to a million signing they call them signing and these are that's the word for helpers and these are people

who provide assistance to the CIA and they're scattered everywhere these are people some are bankers if you want money people who provide assistance to the CIA. And they're scattered everywhere. These are people, some are bankers. If you want money, the bank will open for you through them. If you're by any chance hurt or wounded or want some medical help, a doctor's available to you, and so on.

If you need an urgent flight ticket, you haven't got one, you've lost something, that's open to you. Even if you want a travel document, in other words, a passport, that's open to you. These people are all very well chosen and placed. And in my book, Gideon Spies, which is the result of my two and a half years researching and writing about Mars man, I detail exactly how that works. I give examples, I explain why it works, how it can work, and so on. And Seeds of Fire explains perhaps the greatest operation of all, how Mr. William Hamilton and his nice wife Nancy Burke Hamilton are sitting in their offices one day in Washington.

They get a phone call. There's arrived in Tel Aviv a Dr. Orr. And Dr. Orr is, in fact, he says, a public prosecutor, and he believes that he would like to have a look at what Inslaw are doing because they've developed this, at that time, quite advanced, but still not advanced enough for them, program called Promise. And so Dr. Orr turns up, and he's shown around, and he gets, it's a very cold February day, and he gets cookies and coffee and all that stuff.

What they didn't realize that Dr. Orr was really Rafi Aytan, the deputy director of operations for Mossad, and with brilliant sleight of hand, with the help of Earl Bryan, with the help of some of his well-placed friends in the Justice Department, the promised software ends up in Mr. Eitan's hands. He spirited off to Israel, where it's deconstructed by his own specialists. It's reconstructed in a way that has given it a trapdoor. This trapdoor is a technical phrase for whoever uses the software. By sitting in Tel Aviv, a TAM specialist can hear what they're doing, hear it electronically, doing here electronically,

so to speak, not here physically, and can track what they're doing and know exactly how it's working. And then Mossad have this ideal weapon at their disposal to penetrate U.S. intelligence and so have you. But in the meantime, they're selling a reduced version of this software through Robert Maxwell, newspaper tycoon, Mossad spy. I've referred to him frequently as the caviar and champagne spy because that's exactly what he was. Before we get into Robert Maxwell, you mentioned, did I hear you say Earl Bryan? Yes. Okay, is hear you say Earl Bryan?

Yes. Okay, was this Dr. Earl Bryan who was a brain surgeon? No, this is Earl Bryan who was involved in the California political scene. And Earl Bryan had this wonderful mad scheme. He went to Ronnie Reagan, his great pal, president, before he was governor, Reagan then, and said, you know, I think I'd like to take, introduce Iran to Medicare. And Reagan said, memorably, well, if you can persuade Iran to accept Medicare,

you can do anything. And off he went. He didn't persuade him, of course, but he worked. He then met up with Mossad. He met up with ITAN. And the whole scheme is almost like a Le Carre thriller or something that Bond would get into. Or, you know, Freddy Forsythe might write,

except every word in the book, the whole section that deals with the theft of promises, is documented, supported by never-before-seen documents. And it really is the most incredible story. Gordon, just in the last, I guess in the last month here in the States, Fox News Channel had several reports about the Israeli intelligence operation in the United States regarding two telephone telecommunication companies. Yes.

Was it Amdocs? I think it was one. I forget the name of the other one. I noticed that suddenly Fox News stopped the reports, and all the reports were quickly removed from the Fox News website. Do you know anything about that? And the two reporters haven't worked since, I don't think. That is the power of what I term,

without in any way being misunderstood, as the powerful Jewish lobby in Washington. And it reaches all the way up through the Fox network, and it stopped there. Now, one of the things that fascinates me is this, that Rupert Murdoch, of course, who owns the Fox Network, amongst everything else he seems to own, has huge interest in China.

And right now, it is not in his interest to have this story come out because the story about the links that Fox had began to unearth leads all the way back to China again. And this is something that Mr. Murdoch doesn't want to come out, so the Fox broadcast guys are just chopped off at the knees. Just the other day I was watching Fox News early in the morning, and Geraldo Rivera was doing a live report from Afghanistan, and he was talking about the recent car bombing in Lebanon

where the Lebanese commander was taken out. Is it Habayka? Yes, Habayka. And so Gerardo Rivera was doing this live report. It was maybe 7, 7.30 a.m. here in Texas. And he began to mention that there was speculation that the Israeli Mossad had been involved in the car bombing. At that very

instant, the screen went black. And the Fox News... I can tell you why, because Rivera was sticking his neck out too far. But I can tell you a story. It's quite an interesting story. I only publish a story in my weekly newspaper review for Europe on this.

The story is this. Habayka last Saturday would have appeared in Brussels in a court with all the documents he has that shows that Prime Minister Sharon, currently Prime Minister of Israel, was directly linked to the two

refugee camp massacres which he was commander of the army there at the time, but he's directly linked. And Habayka had, he was no clean hands guy at all. Habayka has a career stained in blood. But what happened? He had said finally, don't just blame me alone. Let's blame some of the real people involved here.

I was there, and he described it. Now, I had only spoken days before to the public prosecutor in Belgium about this, and he said, you should come over and see what Mr. Habayka is going to tell us. We know what he's going to tell us. Well, Mr. Habayka was on his way on a Thursday morning, and he stepped out of his house in the middle of Beirut, and a Mercedes car with about 200 pounds of explosives on board blew him, his two bodyguards, and half the street away. And what happened? They think that he had his briefcase with him,

but what I do now know, and this is worth revealing on your show, is that he had taken the precaution of sending ahead of himself to Brussels a complete duplicate set of those documents. Now on March the 9th this year, the public prosecutor and the Dutch judiciary have to decide whether they would allow these documents to be entered into the record, which would allow them then to bring Ariel Sharon to face charges of war crimes. I can only tell you this.

I have never known such a concerted drive by the Israeli diplomatic service throughout Europe to make sure this never happens. I've never seen such lobbying in my life for a long, long time. And it's this powerful lobbying that allows Fox broadcasts to pull the plug on Rivera, to allow so many things to happen. And it's this lobbying in Washington that has kept, or in, yes, in Washington. The Washington Times prides itself on being breaking news all the time. Well, you know, it's had a copy of Seeds of Fire in its hands for a month, and I'm told it doesn't know how to handle this right now. It was only today that the establishment broke records

when UPI, United Press International, actually had the courage to reveal what the book contains and says it's explosive. That's interesting, Gordon, because UPI is owned by the parent company of the Washington Times, which is... Yes, but it broke in an hour. Wait and see what the Washington Times will do. It'll be very interesting. Now, the New York Times have had the book for the same period of time.

They've done nothing. Well, I can understand that because they're so powerfully controlled in that respect. Gordon, ever since September 11th, there have been numerous stories that have popped up and then disappeared regarding suspicious activity by Israelis in the United States. Yes, under the 50s. We had the first story about, I think, the five Israelis who were arrested in New Jersey across the river from the World Trade Center. They were observed, and what witnesses said, laughing and rejoicing over the destruction of the World Trade Center. They were observed, and what witnesses said, laughing and rejoicing over the destruction of the World Trade Center. They were found to be in possession of box cutters and other items. They were taken away by the police,

and then several weeks ago they were released and deported back to Israel. I think that was the last I heard about it. That's right. There was a group, four or five men with Israeli passports who were seen, I think, in the Midwestern United States. They had maps and blueprints of U.S. nuclear power plants. Then the very next day, Attorney General John Ashcroft denied the story. He said it didn't exist. It never

happened. Then there was a story that I reported that I've never seen anybody in the U.S. report this. In early October, at the Mexican Congress, do you know about this one?

I do. I reported it, But nobody in America reported it. Well, one person did. I did. You did, yeah. But nobody else as far as I know. Nobody will touch it. We're talking about the two guys who were caught in the Mexican Congress with explosives, with 9mm guns.

They turned out to be, I guess, ex- Two Mossad agents. They were Mossad agents. What were they doing there? Well, what they were doing there? Well, it's... What they were doing there, from what I can... I've put together,

is that they were there in an attempt to cause this destruction in an attempt that Mexico, which has stayed out of the conflagration, as you know, as far as it can, would declare war on bin Laden

and, you know, we would have Mexico rolled in. It's very important for us because at the bottom end of all this is, of course, oil. And this is something which I think we should talk about for a second. It's this.

And I'm just going to look up my document while I'm talking to you because there's quite an important event happened not too far away from where you are. And it's this. In 1997, a delegation came from Kabul to, here we are, a delegation came from Kabul to Dallas. It was led by Mullah Mohammed Ishaq, who was the Taliban's minister of mining.

He had been sent by Mullah Omar. The delegation also included two members of bin Laden's al-Qaeda organization. They had come to discuss with Texas oil people the idea of building a pipeline from Afghanistan through to Pakistan. Now, the meetings lasted several days, and it got nowhere at that stage. They were interested in doing a deal about oil exploration, but it didn't work out. But the point is, that was known at the time. Nobody wrote about it. Not a word was written about it at all anywhere.

There's not a word been written about it since. And, you know, this suppression of information is really quite astonishing. Well, and you said that happened in 1997? Yeah, I have the date. It was in April 15th to the 19th. And the meeting was in Dallas-Fort Worth? Yep, yep, Dallas-Fort Worth, yep. Well, of course, at that time, the governor of Texas was George W. Bush.

Correct. While we're on the subject, Gord, I've written some articles about the Bush family's connection to the Bin Ladens. Is this something that you've followed? I have. It's very curious. I mean, there are definitely, just as there are now with the current scandal beginning to unravel towards the White House, there are connections all the way.

You know, it seems to me Bush and money and dodgy friends seem to all go in the same sentence. And it's a worry because George Bush in many ways presents himself as above reproach nowadays. He's certainly got a huge popularity rating. But I think the day must come, as it did with previous presidents, where we'll have to have people dig deeper and deeper. And it's people like you and I hope myself in a way can get to the bottom of this. But we're obstructed all the bottom of this, but we're obstructed all the way, all the way we're obstructed, and it's very worrying. And the only hope we have is to get out what we can. You know, it took Carol Adler, the publisher of Dandelion

Books, to publish Seeds of Fire, it took a huge amount of courage on her part to take this on because she's only three years old in terms of publishing life. She's a small house in Phoenix, Arizona. It's hardly the center of world publishing, but she's managed to sell Seeds of Fire to 34 countries who want to hear what is behind all this. Now, that to me is encouraging, but she's suffering grievously because every time she tries to move, she's blocked.ously because every time she tries to move,

she's blocked. It's taken some very powerful people to help unblock it for her to get the book out. And the fact that it's now got UPI behind it or at least covering it, it's really a major breakthrough today. But it's worth remembering that it's an uphill struggle to get the truth out,

as you know so well yourself. We battle it every day. We're bombarded with computer viruses. We deal with technical problems with the transmission of our program. Sometimes on the international shortwave broadcast, there is jamming of the signal. It is just an endless battle every single day to get a one-hour newscast put out to the public.

Absolutely. I can understand what you mean. It's very difficult. And I'm so glad to have this chance to be on the show because at least I hope they don't cut this to pieces or block it. But if it doesn't, I hope people will listen and say, Well, I better go find out myself what about this wake-up call. And all I'd ask your audience tonight is this. Listen, make your own mind up,

but be aware that the facts are yours. They're available to you. If you turn them away, then you can only blame yourself if things go wrong later. Gordon, on the subject of the Israeli Mossad, China's relationship with Israel, China's relationship with Osama bin Laden, the connections to MKUltra, to bizarre mind control experiments, the Area 51, all of these things. And maybe I'm just really going out here.

Maybe I've watched too many X-File programs. Is there any possibility, is there the remotest possibility that the September 11th attacks really were not in reality what they appear to be, but that it was a sophisticated intelligence operation operation, designed to put the blame on the al-Qaeda. I just have trouble believing that guys wearing dirty nightshirts living in a cave were able to pull off a highly sophisticated attack upon the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. It just stretches credibility to believe that story. Okay, let me come at it from another point of view, and this is quite important as well.

Two and a half weeks before the attack on the trade towers, Osama bin Laden gave a major interview to an Arab-lang language newspaper in London. It was published while it was on page in Arabic, of course. Now, there's a standing order in the American embassy in London that every Arab newspaper in London is picked up every day and brought to the embassy, which is very good, you say. Yeah, except one thing.

There's not one person to this day in the US embassy in London who speaks enough fluent Arabic or even moniker of Arabic to read the papers that's the first thing the paper where the bin Laden interview was shipped along with the other newspapers in diplomatic bag overnight to Washington

there it was read in the State Department but not really read because there are only a few Arab speakers there fluent in the language as well at the time, just before September. The papers made its way to the CIA. The CIA, who have a few Arab speakers, were too busy reading the Arab language papers out of the Middle East to pay attention to the flagged interview with bin Laden. In the interview, bin Laden said he intended to conduct a very major operation shortly

against the United States. Now, those newspapers were also picked up by the Mossad. They were immediately shipped to Tel Aviv, where they were read by Mossad analysts. And they made their own inquiries and decided the threat was, as they put it, credible. They sent, as they would, a warning to George Tenet

that an operation was imminent. This warning was sent approximately five days before 9-11. So it was sent. Now, the warning was later described by sources close to George Tenet, the CIA director, as being, quote, non-specific. That's perfectly true. They didn't say, this is going to happen on 9-11. This is what's going to happen.

What they did say is a credible threat of an attack to the United States soon, very soon. Nothing was done. You would have thought, with that sort of warning, there would have been a major alert put out, at least with the borders. Nothing was happened to close the Canadian borders. Nothing was happened to seal off

Mexico. Nothing was happened at all anyway. It was destined to be non-specific. Now, the day before, on the 10th of September, Mossad intercepted through one of its ground intelligence agents in

Afghanistan. And Mossad was the only service then, and still to this day, until recently, with good ground human intelligence on the ground in Afghanistan. They intercepted a call, which they later were satisfied came from bin Laden, to his mother, who was on vacation in a port in Syria, a holiday resort in Syria. And he said he would not be able to attend her birthday celebrations,

which were for the 13th of September, because he would be otherwise heavily engaged, but he wished them many greetings, etc., etc., etc. Now, the Mossad interpreted otherwise heavily engaged as being a time frame to reduce the time of the attack between the 10th to the 13th, and they sent that warning to the CIA. Nothing was done. Nothing happened. Which leads us to one of two conclusions, that the CIA is incredibly inept.

I think that's a good conclusion. Or they wanted it to happen. I don't know about the latter, but I think your first conclusion is a very accurate one. In many ways, the CIA are very inept. They have not performed with any great distinction in this matter, nor, for that matter, have the FBI either. I mean, one of the remarkable things you know,

hours after the attack on the Trade Tower, an aircraft left Logan Airport, Boston with 11 top members of the Bin Laden family on board. Not stopped at all. About to fly out. I know that. And they were given limousine transportation.

I was yelling about it on my radio program. Nobody else wanted to talk about this. Nobody wants to talk about it. This is always the same, you know, Rick. Nobody wants to talk about it. The truth is out there, to borrow a phrase from the exiles, but getting the truth out is very, very difficult.

And then we had this executive order from George Bush months before September 11th where he banned FBI agents from investigating the bin Laden family in the United States of America. That's right. And now there is a lawsuit by FBI agents against the Justice Department and the White House for interfering in their work. Yes. And have you noticed also how bin Laden has disappeared from the public perception? They have no idea where he is.

I mean, they have no idea at all if he's dead or alive. My belief is he is alive. That he is probably my, the best intelligence I've picked up, which is quite recent, a few days ago, is that he is probably in northern Kashmir somewhere, heading towards those Chinese provinces, which have got four to four billion-plus Muslim extremists up in the northwest provinces of China.

And once he gets there, you can forget about ever getting him out. He'll never come, and they'll never let him go. See, I never believed he was in a cave. On my program, day after day, I kept telling the audience, listen, he's not in those caves. When they get to the bottom of the cave, the news media is going to say, oh my, Osama's not there. And then we have this ridiculous story that's come out time after time about Mullah Omar. You know, he's escaped on a rickshaw.

He escaped on a motorcycle. He escaped on a camel. And, Gordon, I'm thinking, wait a minute. This is the United States of America. We have Echelon. We have all this high-tech spy technology. We can't find a one-eyed mullah on a motorcycle. It's almost laughable if it wasn't so serious, you know.

Well, you know, I guess what makes me angry is that somebody in government thinks and knows that the American people will buy this story. Yes, yes. I mean, you're telling me that the greatest military power on the face of the earth can't find a one-eyed mullah on a scooter. It's terrifying.

Truly terrifying. Well, I hope you found that interview as fascinating as I did. Now, I want to encourage you to continue to be praying for this ministry and praying for Rick Wiles as he's traveling back from the National Religious Broadcasters Convention, and that you'll be praying for this ministry and praying for Rick Wiles as he's traveling back from the National Religious Broadcasters Convention and that you'll be praying for the ministry on a regular basis. And if you haven't done so, we'd love to hear from you

and how you're praying for us and also give you an opportunity to financially support this ministry as well. The information on the screen there will be a guide for those that are listening on podcast. Our mailing address is True News, PO Box 690069, Vero Beach, Florida, 32969. That's True News, PO Box 690069, Vero Beach, Florida, 32969. And you can also call us 24 hours a day at 800-576-2116. That's 800-576-2116. That's 800-576-2116. Once again, thank you so much for tuning in today. We appreciate your prayers. We appreciate your financial support. And as I said, be praying for Rick as he travels back from Orlando. Folks, we have some fascinating things happening over the next three months. You are just going to be blown away by some of the

news and information that Rick is going to be sharing with you about the future of this ministry. So don't miss a single episode of True News because you might miss everything. So we want to encourage you to tune back in tomorrow for the next edition of True News with Rick right back here in this chair. God bless you.