Truth Unites - Agnostic YouTuber and Christian Mathematician Identify the Best Argument For God?

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

Gavin Ortlund discusses whether John Lennox and Alex O'Connor have identified the best argument for God in their recent interview. See the original video: https://youtu.be/3gKCwldMZS8?si=GMiCG_bTmuiHSsEITruth Unites (https://truthunites.org) exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth. Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) is President of Truth Unites, Visiting Professor of Historical Theology at Phoenix Seminary, and Theologian-in-Residence at Immanuel Nashville.SUPPORT:Tax Deductible Support: https://truthunites.org/donate/Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/truthunitesFOLLOW:Website: https://truthunites.org/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/truth.unites/Twitter: https://twitter.com/gavinortlundFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/TruthUnitesPage/

What is the best argument for the existence of God? Even though most of us who believe in God, we don't believe because of the arguments. The arguments have a modest role. Sometimes they're comforting, sometimes they're hopeful. But there are some pretty good arguments, and they can have some value. But it's always been hard for me to say which one is the best or which one rises above the others because they seem to work on me on different levels. It's hard to isolate just one.

My favorite argument is the argument from eternal truths, which I'll say more about at the end of this video. So if I had to pick one that was technically maybe the strongest, I might think of the fine-tuning argument. If I had to pick one that I think is most effective at moving people existentially, I might say the moral argument. But when I was watching Alex O'Connor and his discussion with Professor John Lennox, Alex's comments stood out to me and I thought, that's actually kind of what I think. I mean, for me, the most powerful argument for the existence of God has long since been the argument for the existence of God. of God from the number of arguments for the existence of God. It seems like any way you look, you can construct one.

There's an argument from biology and consciousness or beauty or contingency, the existence of this microphone. It's quite phenomenal in that respect. And this recalls to my mind, the great passage in C.S. Lewis is surprised by Joy, which is his autobiography. And he's describing how God is sort of breaking down his defenses. And it's like he's losing a chess match piece by piece as he's reading George McDonald's. and G. K. Chesterton and Herbert and Milton and these other great Christian authors. And he puts it like

this. I see what I underlined here. Basically, there are traps everywhere. He says, you can't be too careful when you're an atheist and you're reading because there are traps everywhere. And those emboldened words remind me of Alex's words. Any way you look, you can construct one. And I'm not attributing to Alex's belief in that argument or any argument. I think he's an agnostic, but I think he's summarizing our views there. And this is a fascinating idea. The fact that there's an impressive diversity of arguments for God, which is itself a kind of argument. So let's give some examples. You might say that the ontological argument intercepts us at the rational plane by our thinking, and thus, in its more technical expressions, it involves philosophy. You might say the fine-tuning

argument intercepts us at the physical plane at the level of our observations about the universe, and thus in its more technical expressions involves science and specifically physics, for example. You might say that the moral argument intercepts us at the existential plane, at the level of our conscience and intuition, and in real life involves relationships and laws. You might say that the argument for Christ's resurrection intercepts us at the historical plane, at the level of our hearing of testimony from others, both oral and written, and thus involves historical knowledge and historical study. And there's lots of others, and these even have some overlap. But the point is diversity. We're getting hit from multiple different directions here, whether you're considering

eyewitness testimony or just thinking off by yourself, whether you're looking up at the night's sky at the stars, or whether you're looking within at the moral law within your own heart. As Lewis says, there are traps everywhere. And this seems kind of consistent with what you might expect. If God exists and he wants his existence to be known to us, he would communicate himself in a diversity of ways. Just like a husband who wants to communicate his love to his wife isn't only going to say, I love you. He might say that and buy her flowers and do the dishes and take her on a nice vacation and do lots of different things to communicate that love. lest I frustrate anybody, though, let me make a distinction between an abundance of diversity in the testimony of God and overpowering testimony for God. You can have the first of those without the second. You can have lots of different testimonies without that being overpowering testimony that is just impossible to resist. I just want to say this because someone could hear this and think, okay, so you're saying it's just, wow, there's so many testimonies. You just must be so powerful that nobody can resist this.

But what Christians believe is God has made himself available, but not overpowering like that. Blaise Pascal put this well. He said, don't criticize us for something that we openly profess. We believe in a God who hides, a God who comes in humility in Jesus Christ and who can only be found in humility. That's the whole Christian story and the whole drama of Jesus coming into this world, God incarnate in secret and humility. And for more on that, I have a whole video on Divine Hiddenness where I'm drawing from Pascal and also from Soren Kierkegaard. So Christians don't believe that God's revelation of himself is overpowering so that you just cannot possibly resist it. No, you can resist it. He partially reveals himself with an adequate revelation, but he also partially hides.

But the testimonies for God are diverse and cumulative. They're diverse in that they come at different levels and they're cumulative such that they all cohere with each other and build off of one another, which is a really interesting thing. I'll put it kind of crudely like this and forgive the stereotypical nature of this. way of putting it. But if you're a math nerd, you can find God. If you're a football jock, you can also find God. And in either case, you can find God in a way that's authentic to your own personal experience. The math nerd doesn't need to stop doing math and go play sports to experience something different in order to be prepared to meet God. The football player doesn't need to stop and go learn a bunch of math before they can find God. As these two put it later, God can meet you where you are. I like to imagine if Christianity were true, what might I

expect? Yes. And I suppose what I would kind of expect is for God to meet you where you're at, which means that if you are of that kind of mindset, they'd make you there. Exactly. But, but I think the point that you made before, which is important to stress, is that you might find God at the bottom of the microscope, but it would be unreasonable to suspect that you have to. Then John tells various stories. One of my favorite, I love John Lennox for his philosophy, but I also, he's 81 now, and I love listening to his stories. He's known so many fascinating people who's got these great stories. He tells the story about this person who, actually he's the person who married him and his wife, and this is someone who came to find God completely apart

from arguments. And I have a stunning example of that. The man that married us 50, six years ago, was an ex-fairground heavyweight boxer of the type who went to a prayerground and faced open challenge, and if you beat him, you got some money and so on. That sort of challenge. Tough, absolutely tough, uneducated, couldn't read or write. Eventually this person becomes a Christian, and then he becomes a preacher, and John Lennox tells the story about him at Cambridge speaking to Cambridge University students. And there was a theology student, very cynical, sitting on the floor.

can see it. Now, he looked up and he said, well, Mr. Ford, what about the parable of the sheep and the goats? And Stan Ford, that was his name, was very polite. And he said, well, young sir, not everybody in this room may be familiar with the parable of the sheep of the goats. So tell it to us. So this chap started to splutter and mentioned a couple of lines of it. And without batting it eyelid, Stan Ford finished the entire parable. And the cheering, and they loved him. And he used to come regularly to Cambridge because here was a living example of what God can do to a person. It changed his life completely.

And he had a profound influence. So my wife and I invited him, she wasn't my wife then, to conduct her wedding. And those kind of examples where God meets people where they're. are at have been hugely important in my life. The intellectual side has been important because it's what you said is beautifully correct. That is one of the biggest evidences for God is meeting people where they're at. One of the biggest evidences for God is meeting people where they are at. In other words, John Lennox isn't just saying that God does, in fact, meet people where they are at. He's saying this is a testimony for God. Now, something rises up in my heart when I hear that.

that I cannot put it fully into words, though I will try. So let me give some final sort of pastoral reflections and encouragements to sum up, like, what do we do with all of this? And I want to just speak some encouragement, if I can, to those who are not certain. If you have total certainty, either you're certain God does exist or you're certain God doesn't exist. I'm not so much speaking to you right now. I mean, that's fine.

God bless you. I'm just not really thinking of that. I'm more speaking here to the person who's genuinely in a state of angst. you know, there may be a believer who has doubts or a skeptic who is questioning their skepticism. One simple lesson from this conversation that I think we can take, it's simple, but in its very simplicity, it's very profound, is start where you are. Pray to God and seek God from the position of your own humanity, your own experiences, your own struggles, your own questions, your own doubts, et cetera. So for example, take the language here from the Apostle Paul.

He's preaching in Acts 17 in Athens, and he says that God has determined when and where we live so that we would seek God, perhaps feel our way toward God, and find God. Three verbs here that I emboldened, seek, feel, and find, and between the seeking God and the finding God is this fascinating little phrase, feel your way toward. So this is where I think a lot of people are at. These are the kind of people that I hope my YouTube channel is serving and ministering to and giving a sense of peace to. A lot of people are sort of groping along. You know, when we relate to God, it is not a simple math problem. We are up against a living person who is infinite. So this is going to be the great thing of our lives. And there will be anguish and angst and struggle involved. Faith is not easy. And one of the things I hope my YouTube

channel is doing is being one small contribution to help people as they're working through things. So the pastoral counsel here is start where you're at. For example, if you're a philosopher, feel your way toward God by thinking. Because God is the source of all truth, therefore he can be found through rational thought. I'm not denying the need for special revelation, but this is at least a starting point. If you're a scientist, feel your way toward God by studying the world. Because through the world God has made, God is speaking, as the Psalm says, day to day. day pours out speech. If you are broken-hearted, feel your way toward God with your broken heart.

Because the Bible says God is near to the broken-hearted. A broken heart is not a less reliable pathway to God than science or philosophy. Sometimes it might be an easier path. If God in fact exists, that might be the easiest place you're going to find them in your life because of the character of God. When we've been deeply wounded by life, God understands that. When life just turns upside down and does not make sense anymore. God understands that. When your depression is so thick that you can't even articulate it, God understands that. There is nothing you can go through in this world that God doesn't understand. And, you know, it's those worst experiences of your life where the world takes you and just tosses you to the side and discards you in that moment of your life. God sees you the most and cares about

you the most and his heart gushes compassion toward you. So in a broken heart is a great place to find God. If you're morally outraged at injustice or you are anxious about evil in the world, feel your way toward God from that. You'll find that your conscience is a powerful whisper of God who cares far more about injustice than any of us. The point is there's all different kinds of testimonies out there. And the feeling your way toward process can come from so many different angles. and the promise of scripture is draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Now, some people say, I know I've been doing this long enough trying to pastor people who have doubts to know.

A lot of people just say, I am trying and it's not working, right? And so just to leave some space for that, maybe it's an even encouragement to realize lots of great Christians and saints, like Augustine of Hippo or John Wesley, struggled for years and years and years before they had a breakthrough spiritual experience. So sometimes we're not saying it's easy. I mean, there's no, the Bible says draw near to God and he will draw near to you, but it never promises that the whole process is going to be easy and painless all the time. And the testimony of Scripture, the testimony of the Psalms, the testimony of church history

is sometimes there's real struggle and anguish in the process. But the most important part of the equation is sincere faith. And humility and a sense of your need are the best ingredients to create this sense of faith. like you're looking to the Lord. And I will say, but you can get to it from almost anywhere, any thread of truth or goodness or beauty, you tug on it long enough. It's going to bring you back to the source, and the source is always God. But the one absolute need you have is this sense of the pathos of faith, this sense of the need in your heart. I don't know how to, again, I said, I don't have words for this. I really don't. Maybe you can catch a glimpse of it

just from my struggle to articulate it. Or here's a quote from Augustine that can put it well. He says, give me a man in love. He knows what I mean. Give me one who yearns. Give me one who is hungry. Give me one far away in the desert who is thirsty and sighs for the spring of the eternal country. Give me that sort of man.

He knows what I mean. But I speak to a cold man. He just does not know what I'm talking about. Think about nostalgic memories and the feelings they draw up. Think about what it feels like when you're out on a walk at night and the wind is rustling through the leaves and the trees. Think about those longings in your heart that you can't put a name to, okay? From that place in you, seek God. And my simple advice is that the one thing I think I can promise you will work is to just, if you're, again, I'm talking to the person who, I'm not talking

to the person who's set against belief in God. I'm talking to the person who's feeling their way toward God and struggling with it. And the best counsel I can give is, honestly, sounds kind of simple, get down on your knees and pray and put everything you are into that prayer. Just ratchet up the sincerity to 100% as you're praying. And I just, I think I can promise you that something will happen. You know, keep your eyes open. God usually won't even take very long to get through to someone like that. Finishing off, John Lennox mentions one of my personal favorite arguments here,

and he puts it so well. This is the argument from eternal truths, and he caches it out in terms of math. Really clever people like Einstein saw that there was a problem. And do you remember the famous thing he said, the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it's comprehensible. Yes. He could see that there was something absolutely amazing that someone thinking here could come up with equations that described what's going on out there. Now I have a whole video on this argument, which I spend a lot of time researching to make. I find this argument fascinating. just one aspect of this argument concerns the issue that Lennox was getting into there.

By the way, quick comment, part of why I wanted to make this video, I'm having John Lennox on my channel in about a month. So I was really excited to see this interview. He agreed to do that. I'm very honored by that. I think very highly of him. So that'll be great. So keep your eyes peeled for that. And we're going to talk about this argument. We're going to talk about how math can be a testimony of God. Now, just one aspect of this is the applicability of math to the physical universe. He gave one quote from Einstein, let me give you another. Quote, an enigma presents itself which in all ages has agitated inquiring minds, how can it be that mathematics, being after all a product of human thought, which is independent

of experience, is so admirably appropriate to the objects of reality. I go through other examples in my longer video of other people pointing this out and building more arguments from this, but it is just true. The more you think about it, it is just absolutely astonishing. the abstract truths that our brains can encounter completely apart from experience, cohere so perfectly with the concrete physical world around us. Why should it be that ideas and objects fit together like two puzzle pieces? It's amazing and I can't wait to talk to John Lennox more about that. They also talked about, by the way, the intersection of modern science,

religion and science. And I just put out a video about Galileo that may be of interest to those who wrestle with this question of our science and faith opposed. That's something they got into a lot as well. So anyway, my thoughts here, here's summing it up like this. If someone asks you, what's your favorite argument for God? What I might say to that now, because I've always struggled to answer that. I'm like, I'm not sure. You know, what's the best one? I might just say it's the argument from the fact that there are so many arguments. Maybe that's the best way to put it. I don't know. And again, I don't want to frustrate someone, but if you can come up with a name for that argument, leave it in the comments.