Truth Unites - For Struggling Protestants: A New Ministry

Episode Date: June 28, 2022

My friend Nick Swoboda and I chat about Striving Side By Side, an  exciting new ministry that seeks to provide support and community for  Protestants who are wrestling with ecumenical questions related to other  traditions.   To request admittance to the group, email Nick at: [e-mail] Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus. Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai. SUPPORT: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/truthunites One time donation: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/truthunites FOLLOW: Twitter: https://twitter.com/gavinortlund Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TruthUnitesPage/ Website: https://gavinortlund.com/

Hey, everyone. Welcome to Truth Unites. Truth Unites is a place for theology and apologetics done in an ironic way, and I'm really excited to be talking with my friend Nick Swoboda today. And we became friends as he became a patron of mine. And then he's just hit this awesome idea, which we're going to talk about. So now I have to say, Nick, when you sent me these questions, the first one is, who are you and what are you here to talk about? and I went and watched Toby's exit interview in the show of the office because it reminded me of when Michael asked him, why are you the way that you are? I thought about doing this whole interview and a mock imitation of that. But I thought some people are very literal on the internet and they wouldn't get the joke.

So we won't do that. But anyway, who are you and what are you here to talk about? Awesome. First of all, thanks for having me. I really appreciate just the challenge. time that you've invested in me already in this process. My name is Nick Woboda, and I'm really no one special. I'm someone who's struggled with ecumenical dialogue and concerns for several years now, questions of Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox truth claims. And that's really what I'm

here to talk about. I'm here to talk about a group called striving side by side, which is for people who identify as Protestant, but who are struggling with Roman Catholic and or Eastern Orthodox truth claims. Yes. And when you first mentioned this idea, striving side by side, I immediately thought, wow, I can see how that can could really meet needs right now. So I was really excited to just say, yeah, let's, you know, let's do this. Let's meet needs however we can. So tell us a little bit, what is striving side by side? So it's, it's an online community for people like, as I said, who are struggling with truth claims from Roman Catholicism, where Eastern Orthodoxy.

But we also welcome pastors for people who are struggling with the same. We're just pastors who want to learn. First and foremost, it's a community. It's a place for somebody to connect with other people. It's a safe place to bring your questions, a place where you can find hope and help from people who have maybe been there and struggled on some level, maybe similar to you, and find perseverance is kind of what we hope.

It's a group just to help people learn to see God in the process and in the struggle and to learn patience in that whole process. Yeah, okay. And as I've heard your vision for this and as we prayed together and talked about this together, one of the things that we've, it's kind of emerged from that is, you know, there's different kinds of groups. Different kinds of groups are meeting different purposes. not not no one group is meeting all the needs out there so what is what is this group not yeah i'm glad

you asked that question because i think this is really important um first and foremost this is not an anti-catholic or an anti-eastern orthodox group right it's not something where uh we're going to get together and we're just going to bash on some other Christians and a different Christian you mean that happens on the internet imagine that right But yeah, so that's definitely what it's not, right? We're not going to find our identity in being anti-anything. It's also not conspiratorial in nature. I think that's important because right now you can find conspiracy theories about just about everything out there. And we're not really looking to create new conspiracy theories or advanced conspiracy theories. it's a group

and it's also not a group to promote a particular form of Protestantism, right? So we're not a group that's going to push you towards one way or the other in Protestantism. And it's finally, I would say the, I think I'm on number four here, something like that.

It's not a group that's intent to sow discord or disunity in any way. Kind of with the whole mantra truth unites. We want to continue that in striving side by side. We want to be a group that unites people. Awesome. I love that. Yeah. And that's come through to me as I've listened to your perspective. It kind of captures that ethos of clear principled articulation of your viewpoint, not compromise, but also trying to be respectful in the process and so forth. So I love that. Okay. So what would be, what is the motive? You know, why do? Why do?

this. And I'll say one thing I want to preface this question with is I have observed that for many people and I felt this, many people go through this. I really feel this as I listen to YouTube comments, the amount of anxiety that can come along with the process of wrestling with these deep questions is really intense. And some people are really losing sleep over these kinds of questions, you know, because they're so important. So that's one thing that's been in the background of my mind. But what would you say is there the goal or the motive for the group? Well, I think you know that there just appears to be a need. If you happen to spend any time in any of the comments sections for most of your videos, you'll find that there's a need out there. And I think perhaps it has a little

bit to do with maybe evangelicals in particular being unrooted. We're transient culture now. We don't typically live around our family where you have generations going to the same churches, et cetera. So there's just this unruited feeling. And so this group will kind of assist in that, I think, but that's a big part of it, is unrootedness. Also, I would say churches and pastors are not really equipped and don't always have the time and resources to help people find these answers. And I think that's that's just the truth. I've noticed in some of my own experience, but also from talking to others, if you were to bring some of these questions to your local pastor,

they may have never engaged in that type of dialogue. And some are willing to jump in, dive in, and dig deep, and some just like I said, don't have the time. So this helps us to provide a resource to go deep. with people who've been through those questioning processes. Okay. Let me ask you two questions. First, who can be a part of the group?

And then after that, who should be a part of the group? Sure. Okay. So you can be a part of the group if you're a Protestant. Basically, if you identify as a Protestant and you have ecumenical questions. They don't have to be really deep. You don't have to be anxious. You don't have to be suffering from anxiety.

But if you have some questions, then we would welcome you to be a part of the group. Also, you can be a part of the group if you're a pastor. They just wants to come and listen and learn and provide some support maybe. So we also welcome pastors. I would say that if you're a pastor and you haven't had these questions come up yet, they will come up at some point. So I think that would be good if you'd like to come in, listen, learn, and grow up with us. And finally, I would say, I think I'm on number three here.

The third thing would be people who can abide by their rules. And we've talked to a little bit about that. But once we get, we'll do a little vetting on the front end. So we'll send out some group rules and we'll make sure that everyone can abide by the rules. And part of that is what we talked about earlier, what the group is not being anti-touching. Catholic not bringing conspiratorial, you know, comments and, et cetera. I think you asked me then who should be a part of the group. And then can I interject the thought?

I'm sorry to cut you off. I was just going to say my appreciation for what you just said about trying to set some parameters. I think the intention of that is not to be exclusive, but it's to try to protect the purpose of the group because if we have somebody coming into the group who's like a rabid, like they must all be Baptists, they cannot be Presbyterian. they've all got to be Baptists, and that's like their acts to grind. That could be unhelpful to the other people in the group in terms of the design,

of we're trying to help people with a mere Protestantism here. So I'm just stating my appreciation for your vision of it because it's not trying to exclude people so much, it's just maintain the goal of the group. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I appreciate that. So you wanted me, we were saying who should be a part of the group? Yeah, who would you encourage to be part of it? Yeah, so I think that I would definitely encourage anyone who's struggling with anxiety

that's maybe even experiencing what's kind of come to be known as the Dark Night of the Soul over this. Maybe you've had some questioning over a long period of time and it's got really getting in deep. I would certainly encourage you, one, if you haven't yet, seek out counsel for a new work local pastor. And second, bring your pastor along and just, join the group. Yeah. And I want to say one other thing in Sandwiched in here, and that's part of why I'm grateful for your vision for this is my feeling has been that when we're wrestling with those questions, we need more than mere content. The content is good. You know, reading books is good. Searching for the truth is good. Watching YouTube videos is good. But a community can also be helpful

having people to interact with because it can feel very lonely amidst the process. So that's one of the reasons I'm so grateful for your vision for this. Who should not be a part of the group? All right. Yeah, so who should. Yeah, no, no, you're in. So first, people who shouldn't be a part of a group, well, this is a group for Protestant Christians. So if you're a non-prostent Christian, you should not be a part of the group.

also people who are convinced they have to advance conspiratorial claims and or people who want to convert other people to their form of Protestantism or the Protestant tradition. And people, I would say the last thing would be people whose values run contrary to the group. I think we're explaining some of those as we go along here some of those values. but when we talk about the onboarding process, when that occurs, there will be a slight betting process, really small, simple vetting process, or the values will be shared and we'll just ask for somebody, the person who's asking for entrance into the group to go ahead and just say that they will abide by those values. Perfect.

So someone joins the group. What can they expect? Well, that's a great question because up to this point, we've just been talking about this, like, this group is sort of a theory, right? So what we're looking at is like an interactive experience, something where a lot of times what you have online and YouTube videos are fantastic for learning and growing and some engagement in the comments. But you just, some of the times you get those comments that go, you know, 100 comments long and stuff like that and people are going back forth. but that's just not a great place to engage. So what we're trying to do is create forms for people to engage and to have discussions, et cetera.

And so what we'll do is we'll create questions and we'll create forms for people to enter and engage with and ask additional questions. And there'll be responses and back and forth. So everyone will have the opportunity to be a part of the experience. we're also going to try to do quarterly Zoom seminars with Q&A, which I think will be really beneficial. And you've graciously offered to be the presenter, at least in the first one or two. So that would be fantastic.

I think I'm on number three here. The third thing would be resources. So also we'll provide in the group will provide resources and help find answers to help find answers, excuse me. But then five now encouragement. So we'll have an opportunity just to encourage one another. And then I think we will encourage people to move into even one-on-one dialogue with each other and just kind of develop those relationships and connect. so that we can build that community and go a little deeper. Awesome.

I mean, as I'm just sort of taking all this in again and just reminded of why I'm so excited about this, because I think this will really help people. And there's no charge to this, right? This is not a financial thing. This is just an opportunity that, as I understand, it's just an awareness of the need out there that's really behind this. So thank you for that. Now, you mentioned that in your past,

you've had some of this anxiety about a community. menical things. Do you want to share with us anything about kind of how God has walked you through that in your own life? Yeah. So I'm going to take a second here and just kind of talk through this. You just bear with me. So there's a lot of lessons that are to be learned when someone is struggling or somebody's suffering with questions, etc. So when we struggle and suffer, often the lesson that God is teaching us isn't really always what we think he's teaching. And I really consider Job when I think about that. I think of Job as an illustration because Job suffers through the entire book of Job and he wants to know why. You know, why is God allowing

this? Why is God ordaining it? Just why? Why is this happening to me? For about the first three quarters of the book, Job and his friends think that God is teaching Job a lesson about him, about Job's sin or about His righteousness. The focus was on what or whatnot Job was doing. What was he doing or what was he doing that was wrong? But then we find out like in the last quarter of the book that God was using the occasion to teach Job and others about, well, just about him, about his sovereignty. So the lesson wasn't about about Joe's sinner righteousness. It wasn't really about Joe being the center

of the lesson like he thought it was. And you know, before God spoke in chapter 38, I think it was, he sent Elihu to redirect and correct Job and his friends. And I think that that's a good point because often God uses times of struggle and suffering to force us in the community. And it's in that community that he teach

us who he is. And I think that's because God is far more concerned with who we are than what we do. And I'm not saying that he's not concerned about what we do, but he knows that if we're focused on who we are, then what we do will flow out of that. And so I think that's important. Job is perhaps the best case study for those that are plagued with questions because there's that deeper question that's always involved. It's that why. And I think that, you know, that's a question that I experienced. And I'm sure that if anybody listening to

this video, you've experienced that question too, like why? Why is this happening to me? You know, why am I experiencing this anxiety? Why would God allow this to happen? Like Joe, you know, why would, you know, God ordain it perhaps? And, you know, why would God allow so much disunity in his church, all these questions. And Job and his friends just wanted to act to end it, right? They just wanted to do something about it. So Job's friends said, hey, you need to repent. That's what you got to do.

And Job was like, no, I think I'm innocent. Test me. He is actually saying to God, test me when he should have probably been saying, teach me. Look, they were all wrong. Like all of Job and his friends were wrong about, why God was allowing Job to suffer. And I would say that if you're someone that's struggling with anxiety, like the whole anxiety

of it all, the ecumenical concerns, and I would just maybe ask you, allow me to be bold enough to say that perhaps converting would be the same thing as Job acquiescing to his friends and confessing sin that he didn't commit, just to relieve the suffering. I know I've kind of gone on and on, and that was a lot. So maybe to answer your question, I'll just say what I've learned is that when we struggle or when we suffer, we want to take control. We want to act. Instead of listening, submitting, learning, trusting. Often like Joe, God is just calling us into unquestioning submission. right actually right where we are at and i've learned i guess that god is glorified through our submission and patience and perseverance and that he proves faithful and trustworthy over and over again thank you for sharing that i think that'll be encouraging for people and you know as i just heard you

share that just off the top of my head here some of the things that are coming into my heart and mind are i think you're right and you're in in the comparison with job and the intuition that the angst and the uncertainty that is produced when you're in a place of instability or you're not totally fully settled in your convictions on something does feel like suffering. And I think it can be a form of suffering. And I think I wonder if that's sometimes what causes the conversations to be more acrimonious is because when we hear an intelligent or confident articulation of another view, it can feel very threatening.

And it can, you know, we thought we settled things. We thought we'd batten down all the hatches in our ecclesial identity. And all of a sudden it's like, uh-oh, you know, what if I'm wrong? And it brings that anxiety back and so forth. And one of the things I appreciate about what you were saying is the insight that through the process of uncertainty and suffering, God is working. And that's so encouraging to remember. And I think remembering that might help us not be as antagonistic, which is so much of what

I'm seeking to do on my channel because I believe it's okay to defend our convictions. It's okay to defend Protestantism. It's good to do that. Some people act like they're kind of shocked that we're defending Protestantism. It's like, of course we're going to, you know, everyone's got to defend their beliefs. But we can do so in a spirit where our identity isn't hanging on us having everything sorted out. We may kind of be struggling along the way at times. So all that's just some personal reflection of appreciation there.

But, okay, we're basically done here. Let me ask you, how does somebody get connected? Like, say someone's watching this and they're really interested in saying, I want to be a part of that. What do they do? Yep, just email me. Email me at strivingsbs at gmail.com. Strivingsbs at gmail.com. So I think you said the email will be in the video description or whatever.

So that would be helpful. And then when you email me, just know that I'll have a few. questions that I'll send back to you to kind of vet, vet you before you come in, and I just wouldn't be threatened by that. Just know that that makes it a safe place for everybody, and they're not a ton of questions. I think it's like 10 questions. Part of it is to do a little bit of vetting. Part of it is just to get a feel for where you're at. And then from there, we'll grant you access to the site, and we'll begin in community. Awesome. I love this because it's so simple. You know, there's not 10 steps or something like that. It's just join in. And again, we're just trying to create that safe

environment. And so that's the desire there with those questions. Okay, the last question is, what final, last question is, why are you the way that you are? No, I'm just kidding. Last question is, what final advice would you have for someone who's thinking, maybe someone is undecided and they're thinking about it. What advice would you give them? I'd just ask you to shoot me an email. If you're not sure if this group is right for you. Just shoot me an email and we can talk through it. Maybe I can help you find some discernment. But I do also want to say one last thing, and I think this is important. This group is definitely not intended to replace the local church. And I think that's very important. I have a very firm belief in the authority and purpose of the local church.

And so this group is not intended to replace that just to help supplement that, to provide a community and resources for your local church and for those individuals. So I would just say the one last thing I would say is to, you know, if you, if you so led, then just take this, take the concerns to your pastor and invite it along too, but it's not a prerequisite. Awesome. Nick, thank you so much for your heart for this. I really believe the Lord is going to use this to help people in the process. and that refining process that we go through sometimes with these deep questions. For people watching this video, if you have any questions about this that were not addressed in this interview, feel free to leave those as comments. And both Nick and I will try to check in from time to time.

And if there's questions that are repeating or something, we're happy to engage with those. But I hope that you'd consider being a part of this. I think it could be really helpful. If you are within the parameters of kind of what the group is designed to do, I think you'll find it really helpful. So, all right, thanks for watching everybody. May the Lord bless you.