Truth Unites - Francis Chan Opens Up About the Eucharist

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

Gavin Ortlund and Francis Chan discuss the Eucharist, Protestantism, and God's unconditional love.Francis's new book: https://a.co/d/7dStDVmTruth Unites (https://truthunites.org) exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth.Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) is President of Truth Unites, Visiting Professor of Historical Theology at Phoenix Seminary, and Theologian-in-Residence at Immanuel Nashville.SUPPORT:Tax Deductible Support: https://truthunites.org/donate/Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/truthunitesFOLLOW:Website: https://truthunites.org/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/truth.unites/X: https://x.com/gavinortlundFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/TruthUnitesPage/

And then I started reading, you know, some of the ancient church fathers and what they said about the Eucharist, even some of the reformers. I really didn't know that the real presence of Christ was an option for Protestants. I just thought it was more of a Zwinglian view that I was taught. It's just a symbol. Nothing more. God's not there. Just remember him. I was just confused by it all. But I did feel like the bread and cup needed to be central. I don't want to overspeak, but is it? the most sacred thing we do now is partake. Well, Francis, I feel so honored to talk with you. I have such a love in my heart for you and an affection for you as my brother in Christ.

I think maybe I just, we were talking beforehand and I said, get these questions out of here. Let's just talk. And I thought, you know, it'd be fun to share how we got to know each other. Yes. And I was so embarrassed. I put out a video, you know, interacting with your views on Communion. or the Lord's Supper. Yes, yes.

And then a couple years later, I checked my email inbox, and I had an email from you. I felt so honest. Oh, this is so great. And we got together. We were able to pray together and talk. I was so humbled by your kindness and just how gracious you were and talking all that through.

And I would love for us to just talk through kind of, you know, your views on communion. Yeah. We were talking a moment ago. There's such a hunger in hearts right now for substance and for truth. Totally. And people are searching, and, you know, truth unites exist to try to meet those needs. Yeah.

So I think just us talking this through will be edifying for people. But maybe to start with, tell us a little bit, what are you up to these days? What is God teaching you these days? What is life like these days? Okay. Well, I do want to get back to that video that you made of me. But first, gosh, life has been so good. I just feel like the Lord.

is just stirring in me this childlike faith that I feel like I had when I first believed. I don't know, it's weird at my age and stage of life, you know, with seven kids, five grandkids, and just, I don't know, it's just, there's been a shift. It's just a new season, and I love it. And I'm feeling like my heart just sensitive to things. I haven't been sensitive to in years. Reading the scriptures with a new faith. You know, these last two days I've been in Luke 7 and 8

and just the faith of the centurion, the faith of the woman that was reaching out. Jesus, you know, bringing a guy back from the dead, You know, it's just on and on about faith, faith, faith. And, and I've been reaching out to friends of mine from high school. So I had like a 40-year reunion. And it was like the greatest time, but suddenly it's like, wow, I haven't seen these guys in 40 years, you know. Like longer than most people listening to this have been alive.

And my heart and love for them, like remembering, that's when I gave my life to the Lord. And I tried to share with all of these guys. And I tried to get everyone in the gym so I could share the gospel with them, you know, in public school. And I'm believing he's going to do that. I prayed for that when I was a teenager. And I go, that could happen today. You know, like faith. Like God heard every prayer of mine when I was a teenager.

and maybe he's just waiting 40 years and I'm going to fill up that gymnasium. So I have dreams of that and, you know, just like anything. You can do anything. So that's all good. Stop me if I'm talking too much. No, it's good. I love it. But then the other thing that the Lord's really convicted me about

is in Numbers chapter 8, the retirement of the Levites, I was reading that like eight years. ago because I was 50, eight years ago. And it's one of those passages I never noticed. And then I'm reading it. It's in my Bible reading. And like, wait, God, you would have me retire at 50? Like, that's it? I'm 50 right now. I'm in great shape. I'm mature. I'm not like when I was in my 20s. I feel like this is the best season. And you would have me retire if I was a Levite back then. You know, and I'm praying through it and going, God, why? Like, first, I'm glad I didn't live back then.

Secondly, would you really have me, you know, step back? Like, this doesn't make sense. But the more I studied, the more I prayed that morning, the more I felt like God just revealed, like, well, they didn't stop doing anything. It says, now you guard the 25-year-olds. And I go, but I have so much energy. He goes, yeah, to guard the 25-year-olds and make sure that they continue this sacred worship. And it just got me thinking, wow, when I look at the 25-year-olds going into ministry, I have this assumption like they're not going to make it with all the criticism, with all the...

I mean, we're just seeing so many of our, well, my peers, your peers, too, just falling like flies theologically into sin, everything else. And so you look at these young people that are instantly famous, and you just go, they're not going to make it. And God has just shown me,

well, what if they had the 50-something-year-old guy walking alongside them? Right. And then he reminded me, I started my church when I was 26, but a 56-year-old man came alongside of me. And I go, wow, if I hadn't had him, what would my life look like? And how many of these guys don't have fathers?

And if I just keep doing my thing, yeah, it'd be fine. And I'll just preach till I die or whatever. But wouldn't it be so much better if I poured myself into these 25? five-year-olds and guarded them. Yeah, yeah. Just even two or three of them, then the multiplication and the longevity of, I don't know, I just saw the wisdom in his system. And I thought, I want to do that.

And I want to pour myself into these young leaders and help guard them from mistakes, mistakes I made, but also leading him into the things that I'm glad I stuck with and focused on. I sense the same thing of just, you know, from when you made a ministry transition, I think it was like 2010 from Cornerstone, from then till now, 15 years, boy, does the world feel different. I mean, even five years, but, but, but, but, you know, and I don't, I can't, I don't even have words for it all. You're always wondering, to what extent is the internet affecting how I'm experiencing this? But honestly, it just feels like a tough time for the church. I mean, I sense so much division, discouragement. One of the things I want to talk to you about at some point is just the level of rancor in online discourse.

I mean, even just this week, I've just been sort of, to be honest, just grieved at times and just thinking, boy, the way our conversations are happening. it seems trending in the wrong direction in terms of just Christian love. Yeah. Because there's a lot of, we'll get into theology in this, but, you know, one basic thing that you don't need to be a great theologian to know is Christians should love other Christians. Yes, yes, yes. And sometimes that is sorely lacking. So how does the world feel different to you now?

In 2025, we're recording this to back, say, 2010. feels different to you. Oh gosh so much. Yeah it's also like I don't even know where to start. Yeah. Because I'm trying to think back and go gosh when I started or even I mean 2010 I was already you know good 15, 17 years into being the pastor at Cornerstone. And it was just a different time where people actually followed a leader. It wasn't that hard to lead back. then. For me, I enjoyed it. I mean, I started before there was internet. I mean, the internet had just come out. And so it was just like, oh, whoa, email? Like, this is crazy. Like, I just sent you a letter, you know, like it was like this weird thing. But, and towards a tail end, that's when podcasts,

you know, 2010 were happening. And I didn't even know all that was going on behind the scenes as our video guys were, I didn't know what a podcast was, and they're like, oh, no, everyone's watching. And then pretty soon, okay, everyone's throwing in their opinion. And it was very new. But now, I think what's disheartening is we just started getting so fractured. And so forget denominations. It was just every man for himself. And now we're at a point where anyone listening to this could start a podcast today and they're on their own and they truly believe in their heart they are the authority and they could pick apart anything that we say call us heretics you know or one of us or the other depending on and create a following and it's like wow how is

unity ever going to happen. And they'll say, I mean, because that's what they feel like they have to do to get views. Yeah. You start, it's a weird thing where you start looking at the success of like this based on how many people watched it. Right. Right.

And it's hard in the flesh not to just assume or get caught up in that, oh, wow, 200,000 watch that one. And so then people starting a podcast or whatever or running one, it's like, what's going to get the clicks? Well, you know, God's love is not going to get you a lot of clicks. But Gavin Ortland is the most heretical person on this planet. Stay away, you know, is going to get so many more views. And so it's hard not to exaggerate things.

Right. Spin things because that's what's going to get the audience. And so then we just go back and forth and get louder and louder. And over time, it just builds and builds and builds. And it feels like it's getting to a point now where I think most of our viewers to this will probably know what we're talking about. And they'll probably have some sensitivity in their heart to say, yeah, something is off. here? What is the solution to it? Because I used to think, well, if you encourage people who have a podcast to be under their local church leadership, that will help. And I do think everyone who

has a public voice should be under their local church's leadership. Then I discovered some of the people whose behavior is appalling are themselves pastors. And I thought, okay, wait a bit. So that's not the only solution here. And I don't have. answers on this. I just, but I think just for us to talk about it and acknowledge this is an issue. We're not saying people shouldn't do theological polemics or disagreement. Of course not. We have to contend for the truth. But the way we do it, I mean, the only thing I know to say is for people to have a heart that is pierced by the love of God, like your wonderful book, which we'll talk about, talks about, and to have a sense of, you know, being unmade by how much God

loves you. You're unworthy of his love, you're a sinner, and yet you're a He's just clothed you in the heavenly garments. He's wrapped you in his righteousness. He loves you with an infinite and everlasting love. He set his love upon you. If every morning, you know, retune your heart to this and then put your video out. That's the only thing I know to do. And I've got to go back to that myself and I know I'm not perfect.

That's why when I, we talk about something I, you know, I find out, I put out a video about Francis. I'm going back and I'm saying, please God. I hope this, I hope I did it right. You know, I hope this was okay. Well, here's, that's why I really got addicted to your videos. I mean, I really don't watch very many because it just, it breaks my heart watching some of this because I feel like it breaks a Lord's heart.

And I think what bothered me a lot of times when I'd read or watch these videos of different people is the, from my perspective, in my understanding of scripture, reading the gospel's over and over, I'm like, that doesn't sound like Jesus, that doesn't sound like the way he would talk, especially to the believers. This doesn't seem like what Paul was urging

with all gentleness and humility. You know, it's like, is that all gentleness and humility? you know, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, we're supposed to resemble Jesus. Like, that's like, I want to, I want his humility, I want his love. He was bold. He was direct. But when we're talking about fellow believers, there needs to be like some reverence.

of like, hey, the Holy Spirit of God is inside of you. Like, okay, I want to be careful how I speak to you and address issues. And that's why I started watching your teachings. I thought, oh, my gosh, he's doing it. I'm hearing you interact with, you know, guys that are Orthodox, guys that are Roman Catholic, and the great. and the love, and I just appreciated that. So I'm scrolling, scrolling, scrolling.

And then I see this one about Francis Chan. I'm like, no. I was like, oh. And I don't like to click those because I'm like, oh, all it's going to do is make me angry. But I pushed it and I watched it. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's fair. Yeah, he's actually right. Yeah, it was on the year.

I was so fired up when I gave that message, and I still agree with like maybe 90% of it. And it wasn't that I was, what you were addressing was, okay, Francis is doing what a lot of people do. And first, you were so gracious and saying, look, I love Francis. He's poured in, I forget the exact words.

But you were just so gracious, like, I think you talked about the impact I had years ago or something like that. And I had so kind. And then you just says, you know, you weren't addressing my heart. Like, he's evil. He's this. He's that. You actually said something to the lines of, I. like it's a good thing I'm pursuing here but here's where he's off and I thought no he's right

and I saw that later on in my studies before I saw your video and I'm like yeah no I discovered the same things he's right like I was so fired up because I had never really studied opposing views from their perspective right so seminary taught us okay read this book this refutes this, read this book, this refutes this, and stay away from these other people. But I began to read people from the Orthodox view and their view of the Protestant church and our practice of the Eucharist. And I began to read Roman Catholic authors and their view of Protestantism and our low view of the Eucharist.

and I'd never read books like that. Right. You know, I always wanted to hear from my side, you know, to prove my point. And some of the things they said about the Protestant church, I was like, ooh, yeah, it's hard to refute that or that or that. And then I started reading, you know, some of the ancient church fathers and what they said about the Eucharist, even some of the reformers. Yeah. And I'm like, I never knew that,

I really didn't know that the real presence of Christ was an option for Protestants. Yeah. I just thought it was more of a Zwinglian view that I was taught. It's just a symbol. Right. Nothing more. God's not there.

Just, you know, remember him. And yet, I was just confused by it all. Yeah. I did feel like the bread and cup needed to be central and not our personalities. I think it was the same time as I was just bothered by, this doesn't make sense every man for himself. And let's just all vote on who's the best pastor and stand behind him. And everyone else is a heretic.

And it was just crushing me that this was happening in the body of Christ. And so in my mind, the Eucharist could bring us back together. The body and blood of Christ, the very thing that was supposed to unite us became the most divisive thing in the church. And could I be a part of bringing that back? And can we make it more central? And can we really just be reverent? And I was largely influenced by Hank Hanigrap.

You know, we have a friendship. And as he was going, through his whole transition into the Orthodox Church. You know, I'm just following and just as a friend trying to understand and obviously respected his scholarship for so many years as the Bible Answer Man and just trying to understand why did you go into this. And so there was just a lot of this going on in my mind. But the more I studied, and some of it, watching some of your videos.

And you did such a great job of just sticking to the facts and going, hey, but here's what the official stance of the church says. I'm like, oh, yeah, which I do want to talk about because it seems like there's an official stance to Roman Catholicism and orthodoxy. But that's not necessarily the most practiced. stance. And that's where it gets confusing. It's like on paper, they are supposed to say this and believe this, but they don't. And it wasn't as uniform as I thought. And even the early church fathers weren't united on liturgies. And I thought in my study I was going to find like, oh yeah,

Everyone in the first 300 years went with this liturgy. Here's where it broke off and da-da-da-da-da. But I'm reading some early things going, oh, that guy disagreed with that guy. And that was pretty early on. This isn't so easy. Yeah. This is such a great point that I think is one reason I'm grateful to be a Protestant, and that is the sense of freedom you have to acknowledge the messiness of church history.

because we would say the Holy Spirit has always, the Holy Spirit never fell asleep on the job. He's been guiding the church, directing the church. But that does not stop disagreement. Yeah. And that does not stop sin from occurring and so forth. And I think the background context for me on all of these things. I mean, we'll have viewers from other traditions for this video.

I want to honor them. I don't want them to feel like we're stamping on their toes or something like that. God bless them. We're not so much against them at a personal level, at least speaking from my own heart, as I want to celebrate the good of the Reformation, of Protestantism. So a background context issue here for me is a lot of people grow up in an evangelical church, and they've really not seen the riches of Protestantism. They maybe have never read the Puritan. They've never heard of John Owen. They've never, you know, got his eight volumes set on Hebrews like I've been working through.

through and seeing, you know, they think of Protestantism as this very shallow reality, whereas I want to celebrate, I think Protestantism is an ocean. There's so much to it, the martyrs, the missionaries, these different traditions. And one thing, a strength of Protestantism that I value is the ability to just acknowledge where there's been diversity and change throughout church history. I honestly feel free in my heart to just study the facts of church history. Now, for me, one of the things that means is I think some form of real presence in the Eucharist is overwhelming. And there's debates about how to understand that.

But the basic fact of that, I think, is very strong. And so that's where as a Protestant, I say, okay. And lo and behold, I read the reformers, and I find most of them believe that too. And I want to encourage young men, especially, who are thinking about a pendulum swing to consider the riches of Protestantism. It sounds like that's kind of where you've been thinking a little bit with the Eucharist. I mean, tell me more about your current views on the Eucharist and where you land on some of those issues. Yeah, I mean, I'm a Bible guy. Like, I just, I love the Word of God.

And so I read it, read it, read it. I mean, last year I just said, okay, I'm going to read the entire Bible every month. Because I just want to know what this says. I want to get the flow. I want to get the context. There's so many voices out there. So when it comes to the bread and the cup, I'm reading like 1st Corinthians 11,

and I've studied and I'm in its context and in context of the whole of scripture and Paul's warning of many of your weak and sick and a number of you have died. And again, I try to, I try to read the Bible simply in some ways, asking the Holy Spirit to just reveal these spiritual truths. I can't get just as a natural man, reveal it. And yet the same time, I'm like, where is it? You know, like in seminary, we're taught, you know, if the literal sense makes sense,

seek no other sense. And so what's the most obvious, clear? Otherwise, we're doing all these crazy things to come up with our theology. And I'm like, this really sounds like, that holy of holy is like, hey, be careful with this. And you recognize the body of Christ. And it sure seems in context that it's talking about the body you, me, you know, the other believers. And you could, from my understanding and my interpretation, you could die taking communion. I'm like, why does no one talk about this? it's like it's like not warning about the holy of holies you can't just walk in there

like this is sacred that like it seems like the most sacred i want to be careful i don't want to overspeak but it to me is it the most sacred thing we do now is partake and then all these years of like casually taking it or even as a pastor leading it and going we don't have time my sermon went over. I will skip communion this week or skip it this month and push it off another week. And it's like, oh, gosh, I'm, I was so wanting to make one more point to my sermon that to push off so that's where the sacred side of it. And then that's what got me studying and going, wow, they did really treat this as sacred. And then it really became about preaching and preaching styles and who's the best.

And suddenly the tables pushed off to the side. So in my opinion, from my understanding of church history, what Zwingli did and moving communion from center stage and putting the pulpit there, which I understand, the Word of God, and you can correct me if I'm off on that, I go, well, that symbolic moving really became like a actual shifting for a lot of people where it seemed like communion just got pushed further and further away to where it's a tack-on thing compared to what I was seeing in the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church where it's like, that's the center. like, they just, this is a very special thing.

And that's where Hank was telling me about when the priest would walk in and just admit, like, I'm the highest of sinners, but I'm carrying something sacred. And he says, the way it was walked into the room and people would fall on their knees, just recognizing the presence of Christ as a priest walked through. I'm like, oh, that sounds so much more beautiful. so much more honoring than the way I've done it all these years. And look at the way everyone's fighting in the Protestant church and protesting each other. I don't know.

You know, maybe I've been on the wrong side of this thing. And there is something nice about having authority versus every man for himself. So I was wrestling with all of those same things. but in some of your teachings you you did point out like I get that I get that and we are a mess in so many ways but if you go to that other I don't want to call it the other side even if you just swing too far now you have to believe that Francis is actually accursed by God. because he doesn't venerate icons. He's not worthy to come to the table

because he doesn't, he's not a part of this particular church. And he's not welcome to the table, nor are all these, you know, saints to me. To me, I've met a lot of people. And the most spirit-filled person I've ever met, Christ-like would be, in my opinion, Johnny Erick Sentata. Oh, I love that woman.

You too. I just get teary thinking about her. Like, I can't spend five minutes without her quoting scripture, singing a hymn. You know, for those who don't know, she's been a quadriplegic for 60 years. Sweet. But she's not allowed at the comedian table. Christ doesn't welcome her. Okay, I can't do that.

Yeah. I can't. I mean, so I haven't been a believer all these years. I know the richness of my time with the Lord. I know the way he answers me and loves me. And now, on paper, at least, in Orthodoxy, I'm not a son of God. You know, like, I can't believe that.

And I'm not welcome to his table. I can't believe that. And he sees me as a cursed because I don't venerate icons. Like, whoa. But I love these other things so much more than what I see in my own church. and that's what I wrestle with. I see a humility and a reverence that I don't get in mainstream

Protestant. And maybe at the church where you, I mean, you're here, out here in Franklin, and maybe there is this reverence. I haven't attended there. I hope to one day because I'm like, okay, how do you, because I sometimes go,

I don't know what's worse. I mean, I got to believe, that believing that I'm not a believer is worse, but, and I'm not welcome to the table. But, you know what I'm saying? There's like, it's not so easy to just go, we're right, they're wrong. They're doing a lot of things better. And it kills me. This is a great point of just the need for humility in these conversations. Here's what I experienced. There's the trench warfare of internet apologetics, and there's the Catholic apologist, the Orthodox apologists, the Protestant and apologists, et cetera.

And in the trench warfare, you can't yield an inch, right? Yes. It's like, no, wait a second, let's go back to everything we were just saying about remembering my fundamental identity is I'm loved by God, by grace. Yeah. Okay, I need to learn from people I disagree with now. Yes. And it's not about being right and being triumphalist.

I really, it's wearisome, actually. So let's acknowledge where we can learn from people we disagree with. Yeah. You know, like here's a metaphor. if in a marriage relationship, let's say there's a divorce, and let's say that the wife is justified in, let's say it's a biblically justified divorce. The wife's life might still be diminished by now being single. Similarly, we can say that the reformation is justified while still acknowledging, actually, there's been this incredible fragmentation throughout Christendom that has had all kinds of long-term consequences where we look down the road. Now, but a couple of things I want to say, if it's okay.

I was just at a conference this past weekend with mostly Eastern Orthodox Christians and a few Catholics. We were coming together to talk about marriage, which I'm very happy to do to be a co-belligerent on a social issue. Like, that's an easy one for me. Like, you know, we got a lot of issues we need to work through in terms of where we agree and where we disagree. That's an easy agreement for me. Like, I'm happy to just say, yeah, let's come together and defend. marriage. So it was a great time. I really enjoyed being there. I met wonderful people. It's always much more pleasant in real life than the online, the way the internet

escalates things and changes things. But just from that and other experiences, I want to try to move towards their perspective as much as we can to acknowledge. So they don't feel frustrated. So when we talk about being a curse for not venerating icons and not being a believer, not being open to the table, you know, what they will say is, especially the Catholics and most of the Orthodox today, they'll probably say you are a believer, though it depends on who you talk to. Yes. And they'll also probably say, a curse for, no, they'll probably say, you know, no, the anathemas only apply to those inside the church.

And there's a lot of things. I don't actually know that that's authentic to Nicaea to and what the bishops themselves were saying. Yes, yes, yes. But just to acknowledge, you know, they'll, most in those traditions won't come out and say that. However, here's where I think, I guess two points I would make is one is what you're saying about Catholicity and the wholeness of the church and where I think we can say as Protestants, there's a grief in us at the exclusivity of these other traditions claims. And even if we can debate with them about the implications of that here or there, it's just

a fact that they claim to be the one true church. They don't think you and I have ever had a valid U.S. ever. And there is this, basically it's a unity on our terms. And I look at the church today, the way you expressed about Johnny Erickson Tata, a wonderful saint in the Lord, I feel this about so many of the people I know, I think of my granddad right now, the most Christ-like man I've ever known. And you think, you know, you've got to have a vision of Catholicity that can account for the on the ground work of the Holy Spirit and where you see the Lord at work. So I think this is, I guess I'm just agreeing with you and sharing your burden about this,

that this becomes a sticking point in the conversations, the claims of exclusivity in the other traditions, even if they're worked out to different extents, you know, in particular conversations and so forth. And then I'm wanting to emphasize that I think the reverence you're talking about. about can be had in many different Protestant contexts. And a lot of this is just what we've grown up here in US evangelicalism. Yes, yes, yes.

Because what you said a moment ago about is the Lord's supper the most sacred thing we do in this life? Yes. That was what Charles Spurgeon said. Wow. And he's a Baptist preacher. Exactly. Yeah.

And he said, the closest we get to heaven is at the Lord's table. And that's a historic Protestant view. And that's where my, another grief in my heart is as Protestants, let's retrieve and redeem the riches of our own heritage, including even like the Baptist tradition. You know, Baptists always believed in the real presence. Not always, most Baptists did in 17th century, 18th century. I would say it's more 19th century

that you start to get some of these trajectories where it falls off. And so, wow. Yeah, I guess, please. I want to comment, like, so earlier you said, you know, people are getting attracted to the right Catholic Orthodox because they look at Protestant as like maybe shallow or you know they're but I I guess for me my experience was I was turned off I didn't see Protestants as not

studying or in fact I came from very like everything was about scholarship the the reason why it it was turned I wasn't turned off because it was shallow or they didn't study, I just saw the people that were most into scholarship. I didn't see the fruit of the spirit in their lives. It led into this really harsh, like, wow, arrogant. So I didn't want it. I almost shied away. After a while, the way that we attacked certain people that I later got to know and go,

this man is not ignorant of the scriptures. He loves the scriptures. He loves Jesus. I'm seeing the fruit of the spirit. You know, this is more from the cessationist. I was a hardcore cessationist to then meeting guys like Jack Hayford that I ended up befriending and going,

and Seminary, I was told you were an idiot. Like, you knew nothing. You just dreamed and had visions. But he's tearing apart the Hebrew in a way that I'm like, oh, this is. beautiful and so it just made me like gosh a whole world of we're right everyone else is wrong just made me feel like this is really bothering me and and yet somehow you know you don't see the ugliness of family till you're in it and so i think that's what you brought to light is be careful

not to swing because we're all human here. And there's sin in both worlds. Let's just figure it out. I love the idea of truth uniting because any time I would read the scriptures and be very convicted about how the father wants his children united, you know, as a father of seven, it's like, yes, I love the unity of our family. I love that. We all love being together. And yes, God wants this. But any time I make any mention, then my old camp would go, see, he doesn't care about truth anymore. Yeah.

It's like, no, I'm not saying that. I'm just like, you can't be absolutely sure on all of these issues. Yeah, yeah. And when you see humility and, okay, I don't know what you feel about this. but so I went to Rome a few years ago with few other pastors and we met with Pope Francis for a couple hours. I mean, you know, we're in the Vatican and he starts sharing some things. And this is early on in his papacy where he says, you know, you leaders understand what I want more than my own people do. He says, Jesus Christ and his lordship is not at the center of the Catholic Church.

And I want it to be. Right now, the institution is at the center of the church. Jesus' lordship, you understand this, and you want this, and you want him to be central. And he starts going on about the concerns he has about his own. It was so endearing. And then he goes, I'm not saying that we ignore our differences. But can we hold hands and walk down the road and talk about these things? And I was like, wow, I was not expecting that.

There was a humility that was disarming. And some of my Catholic friends were. Because I'm like, okay, explain this, explain this, explain this. And they were very much like, oh, we needed a reformation. We, this is an embarrassing time in the history of the church. I'm like, really? So yes, absolutely. The things that Luther brought out, they needed to be changed.

But to separate from the church, you know. And so I began to understand. So there's different things that happened in history. And I'm starting to understand that better. And it's confusing because in Catholicism, not only, like as Protestants, we disagree on interpretation of this book. But in Catholicism, you not only have to interpret this book, you have to interpret this book. you have to interpret everything that's been said through church history and the catechism. And now I may read something in a catechism or a prayer or the rosary or whatever.

I'm like, wait, what does that mean? And so it gets even more sticky for a Catholic, I think, because you're interpreting scripture and the catechism. And there's just so much going on. And one person may say, oh, marry mother of God and mean one thing. And someone else says, marry mother of God and mean something completely different because there's so many phrases out there. And then as Protestants, we just assume, oh, my gosh, that's blasphemous.

It's like, well, it seemed like they were trying to differentiate between, or they were trying to explain the deity of Christ. and that's why she really bore. But other people don't see it that way. Or, I don't know, just there's so much confusion over these phrases. And it's like, okay, but what do we do now? Because for me, I've had to just talk to individuals. Yeah.

And go, okay, what do you believe? Right. Okay, you're in the Roman Catholic Church. What do you believe about salvation? Right. what do you believe about Jesus? I was with a dear friend, and we're in a coffee shop,

and I said, okay, for example, that guy's sitting over there, go share your version of the gospel with him. Like, what would you say? And as he went and shared everything, I'm like, I know, that's exactly, I'm like, that's it?

It's like, yeah, that's it. Yeah. And I'm like, you wouldn't talk about anything. He goes, no, I'm so confused. That's exactly what I would have shared with him, you know. And so there's, like, each individual is so different that, you know, I know on this show, like you talk like the Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church. But I'm going, that's the same as saying the Baptists or the Presbyterians or the Methodists or the Charismatics.

It's like, I almost feel like there's no such thing. anymore. Because no one knows what they're supposed to believe. Even things you're bringing up about, well, that's what Spurgeon said. I'm like, oh, I didn't know that. You know, we don't know all the things that are, that we're maybe are supposed to know about our denomination.

And so I just been treating everyone as an individual and going, okay, what do you believe? Because I want to love you and your soul. And I want to spend eternity with you. And I want to make sure you are trusting in the death of Christ. And for your salvation and that you really believe that you're loved by him. Is that a – I don't know. I'm just kind of rambling.

I like it. That itself is a very Protestant way to think. Is the bottom up, I'm not looking at the overhead. What's the institutional – structure that is above you. I'm looking from the bottom up at the on the ground reality, and that leads, let me throw out on the table, then I'll ramble for a minute about my thoughts about it

and then see what you think about it. But the question is, you brought up a moment ago the question of what do we do now? Yeah. What a great question. You know, we inherit this sea of complexity in church history that's come to us. Here we are in 2025, and so much has happened.

What does unity look like? now. So how do we? So my channel name is truth unites. And that is, both of those words are so important to me. Amen. If you have a truth, but it's not uniting, then you've got something that might be just unhealthy in the psychology. It's just tearing down. But if you've got something uniting other than the truth, then now you've also got something that's not sound. What I want to give my life to is revival in our day, a renewal of Christianity among younger people, especially. And I want that to be based upon the truth, but I want it to be positive and constructive and healthy. I'm not just tearing down, you know. I want it to feel magnetic like Jesus himself is drawn. People are getting

drawn toward Jesus, right? That's what I want to give my life to. I want to just a renewal of the gospel at hearts in the culture. So I think about that and I say, okay, how do we do that? What does unity look like? You've got seven kids. I've got five. Mine are younger, and unity is hit or miss. But so we know our father wants unity among Christians. What does that look like?

How do we give ourselves to that? I would say that one of the reasons I'm grateful to be a Protestant Christian is the vision of unity is more rooted on just the gospel itself. So what do we do? How do we come together? It's similar to what you're saying of this bottom up. I'm starting with where is the Holy Spirit at work? Where do I see the gospel proclaimed in word and sacrament?

So my vision of the church is wherever you have the true gospel of Jesus Christ proclaimed with word and sacrament, those are my brothers and my sisters. And I actually, oh, I have obligations, Christian obligations of love to them. And it doesn't matter if that particular church is often a jungle and they have no formal ties, no relationships, no bishop laying hands on another bishop, none of that. It's this more inclusive vision of the church. And what then the center of gravity that draws people together is Jesus and his gospel. And so this is part of the concern with the non-Protestant traditions is for their vision of unity,

it does have this institutional element to it. It's like, you've got to join us. And I think of Mark 9, where Jesus, the disciples are saying about these other exorcists, we tried to stop this guy because he wasn't of us. John says this. And Jesus' responses, don't stop him. Whoever is not against us is for us.

This is the vision of unity I have as an evangelical Protestant is, I want to have an open heart to anyone and everyone. wherever, whatever institution they're in, but I'm looking is this, is Jesus here in Word and Sacrament. So I guess that is, as I think about, we can't solve all these problems. We can't sort of, you know, just wave a magic wand and sort of fix all the fractures in the church. Even what we're talking about at the beginning, just the level of malice and discourse. I can't solve that. All I know to do is tune out the hateful voices and just try to focus on serving people

and building relationships and so forth, meeting needs. That's what I try to give my focus on each day. So this is the broad topic here is unity. What does it really mean to pursue unity? And I guess I want to just emphasize it must be a unity that is rooted in the gospel. I want to have humility along the way. I want to do what I call theological triage, where, you know, we were talking about end times views.

I'm pretty open-handed about the details of the end times. You know, I'm not going to locate unity and the exact understanding of the rapture. So I'm looking at like the core of our faith. But the center of gravity has got to be the gospel. And that's where as a Protestant I would seek for unity with other Protestants and with others in other Christian traditions outside of Protestantism to say, it's just that that's the magnetic point that draw. laws us together. So you're hearing someone else, I think you mentioned a Roman Catholic sharing the

gospel. You can just affirm that and say, yeah, that's wonderful. It's a very Protestant way to think to say, I'm not looking at the institutional overhead. I'm looking at the organic reality being birthed by the Holy Spirit. Whether it's in that other tradition, whether it's in the jungle somewhere, some tribe gets the internet and they read the New Testament and the Holy Spirit births a church. and they're reciting the Lord's the Apostles' Creed and this is a church. So that's my vision of unity

is its truth that unites. Yeah. Yeah, and I love that it's centered around the gospel because really when I look at an individual, my heart just goes, okay, do you understand who you're going to face at the end of your life? Like, this could be it

and you're going to stand before him, this holy being. Like, do you understand at that second what you'll care about? Like, do you know, like, that this is the God that Moses says, you can't look at me and live? Like, no one just kind of casually came into his presence, and that's going to happen to you and to love them and imagine them. And their, however they appear before God,

whether it's, you know, just their soul or their, you know, just that moment of like, it's God. And this life is over. And to really care about them and go, have you trusted? Yeah. And really what he said to Moses, the Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. Like, do you believe that that God loves you?

Like that he loved you enough to have his son and his son on the cross was paying for your sin. You know, like do you believe that and that you can be washed clean, clean? And it's not of your worth. It's by grace you've been saved through faith. And that his spirit can enter into you. And then suddenly you'll actually have this desire and become a slave to righteousness. And these works will come out of your life. and do you enjoy him, like his love?

Like, that's what I'm thinking about the person. I'm going, because I want you to stand before God. I want to be with you forever. And, okay, now we can talk about these other things. Right. But that's my heart. And I like to have that type of love. And I have seen some friends who are Roman Catholic.

share that same view. And in fact, I will say, my, how do I put this? So I was just like I was against every charismatic, every Roman Catholic. And then I was asked to speak like spontaneously. You know, I was at this event and there were like Roman Catholic gatherings, like charismatic Catholics that are gathering.

gathering. And the leader comes and like, hey, I know his last minute, we're about to have a session. Would you just come in and preach the gospel to our people? I'm like, what? And I've never been asked. You know, he's like, look, we love how you share the gospel. And there are a lot of people in the Roman Catholic Church who have never really heard the gospel. Would you come in and preach the gospel? Would you come in and preach the gospel? the way you always preach the gospel. I was super confused. I was scared to do it because I was like,

it's going to get filmed, I'm going to get destroyed. But then what do I do? They're asking me to preach the gospel. And then they're saying, and then that he makes a comment, look, we actually rejoice when people leave the Roman Catholic Church because they went to an evangelical church. And they heard the gospel and understood it and embraced it.

What? This is super confusing. I said, okay, I'll come preach the gospel. I just walk down and, you know, the guy introduces me and says, hey, my wife believes that Francis Chan is the greatest Catholic preacher on earth. Now I'm super confused. And he says, his care for the poor, his reverence for God, the things we value, and his understanding of the gospel. And so I go up to speak and he goes, first before you speak, would you sit here and they take my shoes off and these priests come up and start washing my feet and praying for me?

I am so confused and then I get up and just like look I don't know what you guys believe but here's what I believe and they're amening they're you know I'm like this is one of the most confusing experiences of my life

but that's what got me studying and pursuing and talking to Roman Catholic friends and everything else And so, again, that was a situation where the gospel in that room, you know how sometimes, whether it's a Baptist context or I may have been in every, it feels like every single context. There are times when you just can look in people's eyes and you go, wow, they really get it. And then other times you're like, wow, I need to preach the gospel to these people. people. I don't think they get it. And sometimes you miss it. And you go, I should have just

focused on the gospel because now I'm concerned that those guys didn't really get it. And I went off on a different topic. But that room felt very much like, wow, you love the gospel. You get the gospel. And then as I talked to some of the individuals, it was like, wow, I can't deny that you really love the gospel. Yeah. And again, so then I'd ask him, well, how do you interpret this? How'd interpret this? Like, well, I don't see it that way. And that's where I'm like, gosh, I don't.

I still don't know completely how to operate in today's world. And with the theologies that people have. Right. But I'm trying to operate in humility. And I'm trying to educate myself more again. that's where I'm grateful for and again I don't know if I ever just formally thanked you for correcting me in that video

because I agree with your correction and I wanted to say that publicly because I don't hear a lot of people saying that like hey thanks for correcting me I actually did come to some of those same conclusions and I'm still working on and still trying to understand it. But thank you for correcting me in love and treating me as a brother and not just rolling your eyes and I go, you know, which is very easy to do.

And I, you have a gift that I believe is so needed for the body. A gift that I don't have. I've watched some of the things you've said and I've studied it and then I can't remember it the next day. I believe, I don't believe I have a gift of teaching. I believe that I do have more of a preaching gift like maybe a prophetic and not in a telling of the future but a forth speaking and declaring. that doesn't excuse me from studying. And I do study. It's just I think some people are more naturally

or supernaturally even spiritually gifted to teach. And I believe God's given that to you, the gift of grace. I'm hoping and praying that there will be just this slew of young people who, are motivated to study the scriptures and church history deeply, but also be growing in the fruit of the spirit at the same time and exemplifying the character and humility of Christ and the love of Christ. That's where the clanging symbols thing comes in. It's like, oh, I can't listen to this

anymore and that's what I felt like with the internet but um and I know you get a ton of criticism and that's just part of the part of being on the internet um and I just want to be one voice that says man Gavin I love you I love what you have done and I hope that you make many disciples of young people who study the scriptures and study church history and yet grow in love and the fruit of the spirit and communicate in a way that is strong but loving and not sarcastic and belittling. Yes. So just thank you. Thank you.

I love you too. And you mentioned your preaching gift. I've been so blessed by your ministry over the years. So even to get to sit down and talk with you, it feels like such an honor to me. And, you know, what you're saying about we're starting with the gospel, we're leading with the gospel. we're leading with the gospel. We're emphasizing the need to speak with love and humility that is as important as the things we're saying.

And then we're starting with the gospel, and then we don't have to know everything. I don't have to know exactly what it will look like along the way to be faithful to Christ and to seek unity, but also to content for truth. And we can be a work in progress. We're pilgrims on the way. We're following Jesus.

We're figuring it up. My job isn't to be omniscient. My job is to follow Jesus. So I'm doing my best step by step. And let's pastor people watching this who may need this gospel focus. Here's my feeling, and I see what you think. I think a lot of young men, young women as well, they're watching my videos. They're watching other things.

They're in these conversations. They're searching through church history. And the need of their heart is actually the love of Christ. So they're thinking, you know, they feel this vulnerability because they realize I'm not sure if I'm right or not. And rather than that manifesting in saying, I'm not sure if I'm right or not, it manifests more in this sort of very combative style of engaging in theology and engaging in church history. And what I would want to shepherd them towards, and I think you're the same way, is start with the gospel. Let the love of Christ land on your heart first. That's the first step.

And then everything else is, all these other questions are so important as well, but you've got to start there. So I would want to say to somebody, you know, first of all, you need to understand you are loved by God. God loves you personally. And it really, and it actually would take the Holy Spirit opening your eyes to this, but it really is true that Jesus' death was for you. He loves you.

It will forgive your sins. You know, you've got to pass through from saying Jesus died for sinners to be able to say with a sense of joy in your heart, Jesus died for this sinner, right? Jonathan Edwards used to talk about, you know, tasting the honey. You can't just talk about how honey tastes good. You've got to be able to taste it. And so I want to encourage a viewer who is wracked with anxiety, uncertainty, foreboding. They feel like Martin Luther used to feel before the gospel landed on.

On his heart, God feels distant and wrathful. There's storm clouds between me and God. I want to shepherd them to say, to get to a point where they are able to embrace with joy in their heart, it really is just this simple. Jesus died for me. That makes me okay. My sins are forgiven as I trust in Jesus. The love of God is for me, almost to the point maybe they could even in their heart, maybe

they could even say, if God loves anybody, he loves me. Like if they could feel that real in their heart, you know. And so I'm wanting to shepherd someone to a personal appropriation of the gospel to their real needs, their real experiences, day by day, moment by moment, by the power of the Holy Spirit. And we can't manufacture that, but we can speak about that and encourage people toward that. So can you, what can you say to help a person out there who maybe is even realizing I need to start right there at my own relationship with? with Christ. Yes, yes. I mean, I agree with everything you said. I would go back even one step, though. And for me, just because of where people are at today, I would start with the fear of the Lord. And because people have such a low view of God that, and I think they've heard from the evangelical church anyways, God loves you.

maybe not as deeply as they should, but I think there's a lot of people who don't have a fear of the Lord, even the Holy God, and that that's the beginning, that's the wellspring of life. That leads to the friendship to the Lord, the mercy of the Lord is for those who fear him.

And so just to help them understand, that's why the way I understand scripture is terrifying. You know, this is, It's also amazing that he tells Moses, like, he loves to show mercy. Like, you understand what this holy God is. Because I've told the Lord, I go, God, I just, every day I want to be cognizant of your holiness and your love for me. And if I recognize who you are in your holiness and then I recognize how much you love me

your affection towards me, I can make it through anything. But I'll get distracted by other things. And so I just wanted to add that one thing. But when I read the scriptures, like you said, you explain it. You share your own personal testimony of it, the scriptures. But then there's something that you see the Apostle Paul just praying for. There's a, there's this supernatural element that, I mean, when I heard the gospel, I feel like I really understood the gospel in high school.

It wasn't because there was an awesome speaker. He was fine. He just explained the cross. I'm like, oh, wow, okay, that's it. and something happened to me and the proof is 45 years later I'm still here I love him even more yeah my understanding I think is more complete but there was a miracle that took place and for someone to get it where it's internal and it's not like you're just talked into it externally. That's where I think even after we become believers for us to embrace the love

of Christ, it's a supernatural act. That's why Paul is praying for the Ephesians. Paul is praying for people who he says are faithful in Christ Jesus. But he says, I'm praying that I'm on my knees praying for you. Yeah. I pray for you regularly. According to the glory of God, you know, the riches of His glory, I just want him to grant this to you. Wait, to believers? Yeah. I want Christ to dwell in your hearts through faith. Yeah. And I look at that. I'm like, you don't pray that for believers. I want you to know the love of Christ that's beyond comprehension. And you're like, you know, you I don't pray that for believers. I want you to know how wide and long and high and deep.

Like, it was peculiar to me that he's writing to the church, people he's already said are faithful. He goes, but I'm praying and I'm praying that the eyes of your heart would be enlightened. Like there's, to me, it was showing that the love of Christ and the gospel is not something that we move past as some elementary teaching. teaching. And this is where I got in trouble. I stopped focusing on the cross. My education didn't even really talk about the love of Christ because I was assumed rather than something

you keep growing in. And so we become scholars nowadays by moving past the love of Christ. And let's talk about these deep issues. And then people like me start feeling like, oh gosh, I don't know enough about this and this and this and this. I better study all these things to the exclusion of growing in the love of Christ and meditating on how much is I want to know how long. I want to know how high, how deep. Like I can't exhaust this. And I think that's what leads to a very divisive spirit is we're not rallying around. We didn't all wake up with this. Right now, he's looking at his sons as perfectly pure. Right. So Gavin and I, I mean, Isaiah is saying like the things that have come out of my mouth, like these unclean lips. I mean, we talk a lot for a living,

so we've said things that are wrong. We've said things that were unloving. We've said things that were unloving. were that noisy gong and clanging symbol. I led people, I think some statements I've made that have led him away from his love and maybe cause more insecurity in them and, ah, God, all these things I've done and said thoughts that have gone through my mind and yet, were your perfectly pure children because of the cross? And you love us right now? Oh, gosh. Yeah. Like, do people ever get to that point?

Do they get to that point daily? Like, because of the cross and we have to keep growing in that enjoyment. And even as we have these discussions about theology with people that disagree with us, can we have these moments of agreeing on the love of Christ and enjoying his, presence and and just deepening our enjoyment of his love together before we talk about some of these other issues. Yeah, amen. And that's what I'm trying to pursue with some of my friends that I may disagree with

on their understanding of the Eucharist and on their exclusion of me from the table. and they're even questioning of my salvation for not being in the one true church, whether that's a certain branch of orthodoxy or a certain, you know, part of the Roman Catholic Church. Before that, let's talk about Jesus. Let's talk about his love. Do we agree on this? Do you agree?

You know, and I'm just starting to have more moments like that and pursuing more moments that and not just because I want to win them over or something like that but I really believe that God wants me to remember the sacrifice of Christ and what he did on that cross and make that primary in my discussions with everyone yeah yeah yeah it brings up your book which I want to hold up so people can see it beloved which you wrote with your daughter which is So cool. I mean, I'm looking at my daughters who are very young and I'm thinking, what if one day I could write a book with one of my kids or something like that. I've been looking through this and finding it so refreshing and encouraging. And if people could take one thing from this discussion, this might be a good nugget. And maybe we can just camp out on this in the last few questions I want to throw your way here toward the end here. It's just saturating your heart in the love of Christ every day as the first price. And then, suppose you're going into a theological disagreement, okay? You still contend for what you believe is true.

You don't stop advocating for truth. You don't just, you know, compromise and become squishy and so forth. But it will be flavored differently. The way you will talk will be different. Or when you're facing insecurities in your own heart, I mean, all of us are so insecure. I think if, because I know this in my mind. I've preached on this, you know, this idea that we need to always start. We never outgrow the gospel every day we need to start there.

But I drift from it constantly. This week I mentioned, so I'll just, you know, vulnerable here. Just this week it's been when I face cynicism in my own heart or I feel the sense of darkness at just how nasty human nature. can be and I feel I have to go to Christ. Yeah. And I have to basically come, say, you know, I cannot solve this problem, Lord. I'm coming to you. And I, it's just, I don't want to ramble here. So I just say, the main thing on my heart right now is what you're talking about in this wonderful book, which just came out as of us recording this. And what you were mentioning a few moments ago is the happiest thing that anybody can ever experience. And this, starting at this basic heart level to

say, I am accepted by the God of the universe as his son or as his daughter, as the case may be. And he looks on me with this infinite love. And I even, to make it person, we can go to each member of the Godhead. So I'm going to talk about Jesus for a second and say, Jesus intercedes for me before the father. My name is on his lips to the father when he intercedes for me. His forgiveness is fresh and real each morning. And just starting your day from that,

there's really no depth to the joy that that brings to my heart. As I was thinking about this, I texted you and said, you know, I can't, I smile when I think about this. It's just, it's so wonderful to think. And I just think with all the toxicity in the world right now, we can encourage our viewers to withdraw from the noise of the, internet, which I often experience is almost the opposite of the love of God. It's so cutthroat, you know, and just spend time with the Lord receiving his love for you. And then if you're called

to spend any time on the internet, go into it from that heart posture. Yes, yes. But boy, if we're not so careful to guard our hearts, we're going to become just part of the noise ourselves. And it's so easy to drift into that. Would you pastor someone, someone's watching this video and they're saying, they struggle with an addiction, they struggle with a sin pattern. And so they feel like they're unworthy of the love of God. They're watching this saying, well, you know, Francis or Gavin might feel loved by God. But I don't feel that way. And I don't think I could because of the dirtiness and the shame that covers me.

How would you pastor them and encourage them to set their hope upon Christ? Yeah. It's very hard. As you know, as a pastor, you know, like in Thessalonians, it mentions that were to rebuke the unruly and encourage the faint-hearted. So it's hard online or even in preaching to do that because you end up encouraging the unruly and, you know, and it's like, whoops, I didn't mean you to that. Or you rebuke the faint-hearted. It's like, oh, no, I didn't mean that for you. I was thinking about this guy, you know, when I was saying that statement. And so to just throw something out there like, hey, everyone that's feeling that, no, God, no, well, some of you got is, you're feeling that conviction from the Holy Spirit. And praise God for that, that there is a sin in your life that's causing you to go, I don't feel good.

I don't feel right. But last thing I want to do is negate and lessen what the Holy Spirit is doing. The Bible says he makes you a slave to righteousness. You were a slave to sin. You used to be able to do these things and enjoy. But now it's like, oh, I'm getting torn apart from the inside. I don't want to diminish that. That could be God a blessing from the Lord.

So you'll walk away from this sin. So seek the Lord on that. because repentance is awesome. Repentance is such a gift. It's like, oh, I can get rid of that to believe that, don't believe the lie that, oh, I can't get out of this sin because now you're calling God a liar. He says, no, no temptation has overcome you except that which is common to man. And God is faithful.

He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can handle. But with that temptation, he'll always give you a wave of escape so you can come out from under it. So I would say, don't believe in the lies. You have so much power if you have trusted in Christ. If the Spirit is in you, you can overcome this. So don't fall for that. And that's where that releasing, that life comes from repentance. But then there's others who are struggling and are fighting and are in that process.

of sanctification. And that's where I'd have to listen or not just listen, but know a person, to shepherd them well and go, look, the enemy is always like whispering things to me. Francis, you're not as intelligent as Gavin. You can't retain all these things. If you had studied harder after seminary and not gotten so. involved in these other things, you know, then you'd have a bigger impact. And I'm so disappointed in you.

And you're not like this person. You're not like that person. And oh, gosh, you know, and is really even the Lord of your life? Because if he was Lord of every area, would you ever even lust again? And would you... And what about the pride of you enjoyed them bringing up your name like this? positive way and and you know when people bash you or whatever you get so offended and that's not for my glory that's your own yes you're right you know and so are you even a believer like these the enemy is

relentless and so one thing i would say to people is i think about first samuel 30 when everything is against David. He gets back to Zicklag. His wives' kids are taken away. The city is burned down. And now all his people want to kill him. And it's your fault. And as he's grieving, it says, David strengthened himself in the Lord. He had no one. Even his own army wanted to kill him. and he strengthened himself in the Lord. What was that? He was all by himself. And that's what I would say to people is,

I think of 1st Peter 4.7, the end of all things is at hand. Therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers. Above all, keep loving, another earnestly since love covers a multitude of sins but i think the end of all things is at hand and therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers like for all those that i think there are very very few people who are sober-minded and self-controlled you wake up and

and your natural inclination is to go to your phone. Yeah. Because you have no self-control. Yeah. Even though you know that, gosh, the most important thing I could do is come before the God who is keeping me a lot. I woke up because he gave me that breath. And I'm not going to look about at anything or think anything until I just come into his present.

and and I understand that's a luxury sometimes for those who don't have an infant or whatever that's like I was what do I do I was awakened by my infant and I'm like okay well maybe you hold the baby and you're still together like God I want to be like this baby in your arms like the only thing that can comfort me is you like God's going to make a way for that but you've got to be self-controlled and sober-minded so that you can. He says, because the end of all things is at hand. So the most important thing is that I'm able to pray. Because for the sake of your prayers, and too many people look at prayers as like a means to an end,

rather than know, this is the greatest. This is the end. I'm in the presence of God. This is the one thing David prays for. It's like this is the one thing I ask. I just want to dwell. I just want to dwell in your courts. I want to gaze upon your beauty.

But that takes self-control and sober-mindedness, which so few people have the ability to focus. But God's not going to put us in a position where, oh, I can't do that. My mind's cluttered. I have this attention deficient. Who doesn't? It's, it's, when we were, or when I was younger, it was, weird the kid that couldn't pay attention.

Yeah. But now it's like, whoa, that kid paid attention for 10 minutes. It's just what the enemy is doing to keep us from these sweet times. So we can't strengthen ourselves in the Lord. And we can't just enjoy his love. And we can't come into the day with this focus and this peace and this security of, I know you're holy. I know you love me.

I so enjoy you right now. This is what I prayed for you last night. Thank you. I was like, God, help, Gavin. I can't imagine. And I don't go online and look at all the things people say it. I just imagine because I don't even look at the things that they say about me. I just end up hearing it because friends will say,

oh, I can't believe what they said about. Just don't even tell me. I don't know. I get those comments too. I'm so sorry. for what everybody's saying. I'm like, oh, great, what are they saying? All right. What did they say? You know, and, but it's, I pray for you because I'm like, oh, it'd be so tempting to feel like you have to make a rebuttal before you have a time of enjoying him.

Yeah. And being deep with him. And then whatever you say isn't going to have that power. Right, exactly. Because you haven't been in the presence of the Lord. it's not going to bear fruit because you're not abiding in his love. It's like, no, but if you're abiding in his love, then the things that you say will have this power. If you know that you're loved by him and you're living in it and you're speaking out of that, that's what's going to impact people.

I know. I am nothing without that. I mean, if there's one way you can pray for me, everyone watching this video can pray for me, just pray this one thing, and that is that I would just keep my heart. focus on Christ. And then everything else would flow out of that. So that's the first thing. And it's so easy

to say that. But on a random Tuesday or a random Thursday or whenever, all of a sudden I'm driving or I'm going through my day and it's like you just notice oh, I haven't thought about Christ. I haven't, I'm not living out of the fullness of his love.

I'm not keeping in step with the spirit. And I don't know if, I mean, if we, I'm guessing people watching this can relate to that. I mean, if we were to poll a hundred Christians, including pastors and godly people who've been walking with the Lord for decades, and we were to ask them, and this is related to the theme of your book, you know, how do you think God really feels about you? You know, I think a lot of us, the natural default, apart from keeping it step with the Holy Spirit, is you fall into this mentality of their storm clans.

between me and God, his patience is wearing thin. And I love what you're saying. If we want to pastor people differently. When I'm preaching, it's almost uncanny how in each sermon in the application point, I'll say, now if you're here this morning and you're feeling, dot, dot, dot, then what I would say to you is, but if you're feeling this, then what I'm trying to distinguish the hard-hearted

and the soft-hearted, sometimes people need to be. be zapped with the fear of God. I mean, honestly, I mean, and I appreciate this more, actually, now than five years ago, just seeing how there are people who are so hardened, ah, to say it's tough, so blinded in their sin. Yes. And they need a confrontation. And that's real.

So that's there. And then there's those who are struggling. They need encouragement, but they also need discipline, like you're saying. Yeah. They need motivation. to become sober-minded, like First Peter says, and to start off their day. And they need maybe some rebuke and some exhortation to not be distracted. But ultimately, for so many of us who do, and I love how this is more of an emphasis in this book

and in your ministry now is to bask in the love of God. You know, ultimately, with the discipline, with the rebuke, where I want to help someone end up is if they have a soft heart before God, if they're, if they're, if, you're, if, you're, If there's repentance and faith in their heart, I want them to ultimately get to this place. And I don't mean to talk too much. The metaphor comes into my mind is this is what I experience it like. I'm having a tough week, whatever, you know, you fall into the default grind of life and a fallen world. And then you go back into what you're talking about in this book.

And it's like you're in your office and it's stressful and it's noisy and you're working and your boss is getting after. you and then you go in your lunch break and you go into like a garden and it's peaceful and it's quiet and you set your heart at rest and what i want to encourage people towards is that's what the love of christ feels like and i think it's okay to talk about the emotions of it yeah nothing could be more sweet and and nourishing and um you know it it makes you feel same again, where the world makes you crazy and gaslights you, you come in the presence of Jesus, and it's like, okay, it just sets the world okay again. What does it feel like for you?

How do you, how does it look like? I mean, how do you start your day? When you need to attune your heart to the love of Christ, practically, what do you do? Yeah, I mean, it is silence. And I don't even mean, like, I could be at McDonald's and have silence with the Lord. I mean, I don't go to McDonald's often. You know, it's just like there could be things going on

and I can just tune it out. I don't even have to close my eyes. I can just kind of blur out everything and just remind myself of truths of scripture and of who God is and ask the Holy Spirit to even bring scriptures to mind. But I have to like tune the other things out. I have to be alone with the Lord. It has to be this quietness, at least in my mind. And I just picture him on his throne.

I picture all the saints, the angels, seraphim, these creatures. just praising him, him sitting in perfect peace and saying, I can have that peace. And then, you know, suddenly things that were bothering me. It's like the Psalmist in 73 when I tried to understand all this, it was oppressive to me until I entered the sanctuary of God. And then I understood. And there is something about like, really seeing yourself in the throne room and knowing can come before this throne of grace with

confidence that it's a throne of grace which i didn't even notice till a few years ago because i was like i don't know the enemy just blocking my mind but it's a throne of grace and i can receive grace and mercy for example with you it'd be very easy for you to wake up with all these voices of saying different things about you. You're like, that's not what I said. That's not, you know that's not what I said. You know, rather than looking at the throne and God's not worried about it.

Or my friend, a good friend David Platt, when I asked him, like, how do you deal with the criticism? He's like, I just think God could have prevented them from saying those things, but he didn't. So there's something in it for me. And that's what I've learned to do is just go, okay, that's a good point. Hey God, do I care too much about my reputation? Is that why you brought this?

Am I really defending you or myself right here? And let me grow from this. Yeah. And just look at it, this sovereign God. You have this person say this about me. And let me just think about it in your presence. Yeah. What do you think about?

what he said. Yeah. Am I a heretic? You know, like, you love me, don't you? You know, like, it's just, it's more just like this. I'm good, I'm good. And we can look at all the division and the posturing of people and go, this is never going to happen. Yeah. And then you come in the presence of God. Oh, Jesus, you prayed this. You prayed for this. You prayed for this. you want this, God, you want this more than I do. And you're capable of bringing unity to the church. And so God, it may happen after I'm gone. Yeah.

And you're just going to have me say some things that may spark a few people. Help me not just get consumed with the people who hate what I have to say. Otherwise, what would Jeremiah and Ezekiel and Isaiah? Isaiah, you know, they knew people weren't going to listen, but they still needed to say it. And the joy is from saying what you want me to say. I just want to know that you're pleased, God.

I don't want to lose my boldness. I don't want to stop saying what you call me to say. And I don't want to stop loving these people who are cursing me. I don't want to stop blessing them. and asking for you to bless their lives. God, don't let me lose this. Don't let me get cynical. Don't let me become a noisy gong or clanging symbol.

And if it really is, like, the chief aim of my life is to glorify you and to enjoy you. Don't let me lose the enjoyment of you today. I'm a light to the world. and the light is because I know I have a God who loves me and I enjoy walking in that love and that is more than enough to get me through this day Lord

so I just pray that for you because it's a battle it's a battle for me the enemy is going to be relentless and he'll use people that are believers. Yeah.

And have them act in such a way that even if they are speaking truth, it's abrasive and it's sarcastic and it's belittling and our words have power to build up.

That's why he says, I don't want any unwholesome speech coming out of your mouth only that which builds up and gives grace to those who listen. I mean, these words are powerful. And I just pray the Spirit gives you just words that are strong enough because, you know, there's times when we don't speak up out of fear or like maybe we're too nice at times.

And then other times when we're just too harsh. and that's not the way Christ would have said it. And so Holy Spirit, help us. You're our only hope? I seriously want to know, like, I have friends that I love, that I believe are believers. I mean, like, that are Roman Catholic or the Orthodox Church. Like, as I get together with them,

Like, what are the things you feel like I do need to address? Like, let's say someone that I believe agrees with us on the gospel, but there's other issues. And what would you, because I know you like to, you know, do the triage thing. And I, you know, so what would I, what would be the first thing for the Orthodox or the Roman Catholic that you'd go, okay, if you agree on this, here's what I think is that first thing you would. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Well, Lord, help me think this through with wisdom with you here.

Yeah. To try to help people watching this, too, because this is a very practical question. Yeah. I mean, okay, so first of all, I think in line with everything we're saying thus far, we start with a disposition of love in our hearts for this person. Yes. So they know, I'm not here against you personally. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, I want heaven for you. I want the best for you, and they know that. And I think friendship and co-belligerency on social causes. So those are no-brainers for me. We can be friends. We can stand together on the definition of marriage, as I just did with Catholic Orthodox friends. We're going to say marriage is a sacred gift from God. It's at the foundation of what society is.

We want to stand together for that. I'm honored. I mean, a lot of our Catholic friends have. have great social theology that we need to learn from. They've thought some of these issues through, whether it's what it means to be pro-life, which I am, and I want to stand with them and learn from them about how to think that through,

and there's other social issues like that. Those are definite no-brainers. Then you go forward. Now, I take the view, I'm trying to find this balance of truth, you know, truth unites, right? Yes, yes. So truth, no compromise, right? But also, I talk about the word ironic,

which means aiming for peace in personal relationship. And that's just where my convictions lead me. So what that means is though I do want to contend for Protestantism, for the goodness of the Reformation, I want to be not shy. Like you mentioned a moment ago, how we can sin by not being bold enough or by being too harsh. We need to know our temptation and our personality. I've learned to kind of lean forward a little more and just be a little more blunt at times.

Yeah. I'm not, you know, sometimes I'm over worried about stepping on someone's toes. So I just, you know, here's why I'm a Protestant. Here's why I believe. Now, I will say that to people because, and I will try to encourage someone and exhort someone to become a Protestant. Yeah. And the reason I will do that is because I think it honors truth. It honors Catholicity.

It honors the gospel more. So, you know, I go to Mark 7. Now, Jesus is talking to the Pharisees. The Pharisees are, they've added on, I'm not drawing a direct correlation right now between the Pharisees and any one group, but just to this extent, they added on human traditions to the Word of God. And Jesus is very blunt with them for that. You know, it's the hand-washing rituals, but in Mark 713, he says many such things you do.

So they have a tendency, and this is what they claim, they said, we have an oral law for Moses. So there's the written law. They agree on that. But then they say, we have an oral law. And so what they were doing is adding on and acting as though these other traditions were divine when they were in fact human. And so Jesus's opposition to that is to say, you're nullifying the word of God. And this would be in the ballpark of how I would lovingly reason with my non-Protestant Christian. friend is to say you're a part of a system that makes authoritative claims that amount to saying

X, Y, and Z are divine and obligatory on all Christians. You know, whether it be certain beliefs about Mary, the mother of Jesus. So we want to speak with honor about Mary as a great woman of God. But in these other traditions, it is an obligatory dogma that she was bodily assumed to heaven. And from my vantage point, I would say you're at. actually adding on to Christianity. Because this is not just a pious option that you may believe, this is obligatory. And I'm saying that feels like Mark 7.

And so because of those concerns, the adding on, and then also because of the concerns we talked about earlier, about the exclusivity, I feel the difference we have with these traditions is much more significant than like a Baptist and a Presbyterian talking. Because they agree on the standards. on how we result, but we just disagree on how we interpret scripture. But in the, like, say, Protestant to Catholic or Protestant to Orthodox conversation, the disagreements are more systemic. They go down to even, just how do we even tell what is Christianity?

You know, what do you have to believe if you're a Christian? What is the content of this religion? And I've mentioned the bodily assumption of Mary, but there's lots of things that, you know, we would have the concern. Now, suppose you're having a conversation with someone and they say to me, Gavin, I hear you, I listen to you, I disagree. Here's my reasons for disagreeing. Now what do we do? Yeah.

Now, I don't feel, and this is where I get into trouble from some other Protestants, I don't feel that I am unable to recognize genuine believers who take that view, who disagree with me. And I just have a high view for the possibility of sincere error. People can be wrong without being hypocrites and hateful to you. I've just met too many people who seem to really know Jesus who are in these other traditions. And so it's very nuanced because even while I'm saying, I have these deep systemic concerns about this system they're submitting to and supporting its exclusivity and its additions. nonetheless, as a Protestant, I feel I'm being very Protestant to say, I'm not going to look to the overarching institution that's over your head to make an individual judgment. I'm going to look to the gospel. Does this person walk with Jesus? Have they repented of their sins, put their faith in Jesus?

And the position of the reformers was there's enough of the truth in Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy that there's genuine. believers and genuine churches perishes in these traditions. And so I'm going back to Luther and Calvin, and I'm finding these statements, and that's why I feel I'm not just being squishy here. I'm just trying to actually honor the truth and be consistently Protestant. And that's true for Richard Hooker and Charles Hodge and many other very kind of conservative Protestant stalwarts. And yet they were able to say, you know, there's Christians over in that tradition.

And so you can relate to them with Christian love. Even while I'm still contending for the truth and laying out my concerns. This is the approach that I take. I'm going to contend for what I believe is true. I'm going to advocate for Protestantism, but at the same time, I'm going to try to have open eyes to recognize Christian reality wherever it may be seen. And I actually feel I'm being very Protestant in taking that more organic bottom-up view of where you see Christianity. You know, I'm not saying, well, this is the overhead institutionally, therefore I'm putting them in a bucket.

I'm saying, are you actually mystically united to Christ? Yeah. And then I'm starting from that point. Wow. That's good. No, thank you. So I'm curious how you think about that and what else you want to think through. Oh, no, I love it.

I love that. That's a gift that God's given you. You can, you know, I just kind of talk and hope it gets out at some point. You're precise. And you've really thought these things through more deeply than I have. And you're engaging these conversations a lot more than I am. So now I just appreciate that.

I don't really have a way. I just keep talking and see what happens. That's why I wanted to know. That's why I wanted to hear from you. And I want to thank you too. I've had friends that just kind of take a deep breath and go, oh, thank you, Gavin. He makes me proud to be Protestant again, you know,

because we can look at so much of, almost get embarrassed by things that are out there in the name of the evangelical church. And that's where some of my Roman Catholic. friends have brought up it's like they just point out like what do you guys even believe anymore you got such a wide range you know what do you believe on the LGBT community and like well it depends on what pastor you go to and they're just like see every pastor's his own pope then you guys get mad that we have a pope and i'm like no i get it i get it you know like they do have some points of just Your theology is all over the place.

You don't even have one. At least we have one. We have this common ground. And you start going, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you bring up some things and you remind us of the way that the church is supposed to be and can still be. And it's like, okay, let me keep fighting. Let me keep believing. And let me keep loving and moving forward.

So thank you. Thank you for the kind words. And yeah, I hope my ministry doesn't just defend Protestantism. I hope it encourages, especially U.S. evangelicals, to go back to their Protestant roots. And, for example, be more confessional. So it's not just your pastor is the Pope. No, it's like we've got confessional standards. That's always been a Protestant thing.

And a lot of these criticisms are on the mark to help, you know, surface level, U.S. evangelicalism kind of see, because it's so big. And see where it's fallen into trouble, but then there's always need for reform. This is the great thing about Protestantism is always reforming. We just constantly go back to the scriptures, go back to Christ. But I want to thank you for your heart. You're in encouragement. Every time I talk with you, I feel like I've been drawn closer to Christ.

I feel like I have more of a sense, not in a shallow way or a sentimental way, but more of a sense of the love of Christ, the kindness of Christ. And I know your book will help people, especially those, you know, I have a heart for young men who just feel lost in the world right now. I know this book will help shepherd them to what I think is the solid rock that they can place their life on, that they're searching for substance, they're searching for truth. and it will help shepherd them to Jesus and his gospel and his love, which is that solid rock. And this is the last thing I'll say. And then you have any signing off thoughts is, you know, earlier we were talking about criticism and the craziness of the world and the state of the church. And it's just great to come back to this comfort. You know, if I was not a Christian, I don't know exactly how I make it through this life and this world.

but amazing thought that we've got a hope and a comfort that applies no matter what so that if the dynamics we talked about earlier just go 10 times worse. And, you know, we both get totally canceled and everything from a worldly standpoint just goes awry. It's like, man, the hope we have in the gospel isn't affected by that. I'm still going to stand before Christ one day, and I'm going to stand on the basis of his blood and righteousness. And therefore, I'm going to be acceptable to the Father. I'm going to heaven.

And the things I can control is just so freeing. You just let go of everything I can't control. And then I take the things I can control, which is to try to follow Jesus, love my family, tune out the hate, and then meet needs. That's kind of my marching orders right now in this season of my life. It's like, well, I can control that. So I do that. And it's freeing. But it's just nice to have a hope that is operative no matter what is going on around us.

So I feel my heart refreshed in that hope by just getting a chance to talk with you. Thanks. And it's an encouragement. Yeah. Yeah. What final counsel or encouragement can you give to those who are watching? I think the encouragement is that I really believe the Lord is stirring in this younger generation. And we're seeing beautiful things happen all around the world with thousands and thousands of young people in all of these different countries that are seeking the scriptures and seeking the Lord in a way that all these people in these places are saying, we haven't seen this in our whole lifetimes.

And, you know, I have no context. I didn't live there, but they're just saying this. And the thing with this generation, I mean, we've talked a lot about, you know, the Orthodox Church, Roman Catholic Church, Protestant Church, like, there just seems to be this move of, we just want truth. We don't want to be separated from each other. We don't understand all the battles.

Like there's this, like, when I was in the, inner city San Francisco there were all these gangs and and the parents were almost like man these kids are shooting at each other and they don't even know what the cause of our first fight was but they were just brought up in our hatred and uh i don't know i think sometimes like there just seems like there's a generation that's like i don't understand why we have to be separate um why even Francis and Gavin are talking about the Protestants and the Orthodox and the Rome. There's something in them that's like, I want us to, I want to learn from the traditions. There's such beautiful things in some of these traditions and they have upheld these things.

Why can't we do that and do that? And, you know, like a friend the other day who's a known, you know, leader. He's like, gosh, I just love the reverence of the Mass. And why can't we do that? And then hear from like a biblical expositor, you know. And, you know, he's a Roman Catholic guy. He's like, I love that Bible teaching. But I love the Mass.

And there just seems like this heart of, is it happening? You know, yes, there are voices that are going even more extreme. but in the midst of that, it seems like there is this uniting and a desire for truth. And so we just humbly keep loving and studying and getting on our faces, contending for this unity that God created us for. So those are my last thoughts. I love it. And praying for the non-created. Christians who are peeking over the fence kind of saying, maybe there's something to Christianity

right now. That's where my heart has really tilted is just evangelism. Yes. I mean, just bold, blunt talk about Jesus. Just share the gospel all the time. I was at the airport flying back from the conference I mentioned. It's a lady next to me, starts talking about the book I'm reading. And I just, it's like, I don't even hesitate anymore.

Just write in. Just talk about Jesus. Because people are so desperate and so, I'm just agreeing with you and saying, you know, part of that restlessness and stirring is that pray for revival. Pray for many people amidst the craziness just seeping in to Christianity, finding forgiveness and relief and freedom in relationship with Christ. So we'll pray for those things. I'm going to put a link to your book in the video description for people watching this. And I hope this is the first of many conversations. I hope we can keep a friendship.

I've enjoyed it. So love you. Thank you so much, my friend. Thanks, Kevin.