Truth Unites - Spiritual Gifts and Spiritual Warfare (with Sam Storms)

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

In this video I interview Sam Storms about spiritual gifts, spiritual warfare, and the Holy Spirit's work in our lives.   Sam's ministry: https://www.samstorms.org/  Understanding Spiritual Gifts: A Comprehensive Guide: https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Spiritual-Gifts-Comprehensive-Guide/dp/0310111498/truthunites-20 Understanding  Spiritual Warfare: A Comprehensive Guide: https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Spiritual-Warfare-Comprehensive-Guide/dp/0310120845/truthunites-20  Practicing the Power: Welcoming the Gifts of the Holy Spirit in Your Life: https://www.amazon.com/Practicing-Power-Welcoming-Gifts-Spirit/dp/0310533848/truthunites-20 Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus. Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai. SUPPORT: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/truthunites One time donation: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/truthunites FOLLOW: Twitter: https://twitter.com/gavinortlund Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TruthUnitesPage/ Website: https://gavinortlund.com/

I fear, I'm just afraid that so many Christians have no idea of the reality of the authority that Christ has given them over the demonic. They don't have to be afraid. Not say, go looking for a fight, but don't ever run from one because you have the authority of the risen and exalted Jesus through the power of the spirit to gain victory over the demonic. Hey, everyone. Welcome or welcome back to Truth Unites. Truth Unites is a place for theology and apologetics done in an ironic way. Ironic means aiming for peace. And today I'm talking with Dr. Sam Storms.

I'm so honored to be talking with him. He's served as a pastor and professor in many different contexts, written many books. You can check out the video description and see a link to enjoying God ministries. Learn more about him. But I would just say he's a leading voice on the topic of spiritual gifts, spiritual warfare. So the first half of this interview will be about spiritual gifts.

the second half on spiritual warfare. And you'll hear stories. You'll hear how God has worked through his ministry, but all of that will come from a biblical foundation. So that's one of the reasons I'm so grateful for Sam's work in this area. So the two goals we have, number one, ironicism, number two, openness. We want to talk about this in a way that's peaceable and gracious. We also want to encourage people to be open to the Holy Spirit's work in our lives. So, Sam, thanks so much for taking the time to do this. How are you doing today? I'm doing very well. It's good to be with you. I've been looking forward to this. Awesome. Well, maybe a great first question would be, tell us your story of how you became a continuationist.

And if you don't mind, too, maybe you can define that word for us. Sure. Well, a continuationist is just exactly what the word means, the belief that all the gifts to spirit continue. that they did not cease or they were not withdrawn in the early church or many cessationists. And by the way, cessations, I should probably define that as well. Cessationists do not deny the existence of spiritual gifts as a category. They deny the ongoing operation of what they call miraculous gifts of the Spirit, particularly the nine gifts mentioned in 1st, 1st, 12, 7 through 10. I was a cessationist for God.

gosh, let's get my dates correct here, probably first 50, no, wait a minute, when I got that that wrong, first 35 years of my life in ministry, maybe even longer, maybe almost 40 years. And I basically became a continuationist, not because I had experienced any miracles that would have convinced me of that particular position. but largely because I was challenged to actually subject the arguments I had been given in seminary to rigorous biblical examination. And I have to confess, in all honesty and embarrassment, when I was in seminary, I didn't really examine the Bible to see if what my professors were telling me was true. I had such high regard for them and everybody around me was on the same page. I just said, yeah, that sounds reasonable. also actually opening the text of Scripture and looking to see if that's what the Word of God actually said was an eye-opening experience for me. So I just devoted myself to reading the Word of God,

looking for evidence in Scripture for some of these arguments that I had been taught. Couldn't find any evidence. Couldn't, in fact, have found very much the opposite to be the case. So in about 1980-89, largely through two influences. One was my friend Jack Deere, with whom I was in seminary, and your dad was in seminary with Jack as well. Jack helped me a great deal. And also I read Don Carson's book, Showing the Spirit, which is his verse-by-verse exposition of 1st Corinthians 12 through 14.

And Don dismantled a number of the arguments that I had embraced for a long time. So it was in the late 1980s, early 1990s, that I went on this personal exploration and began to pray and pursue and read everything I could get my hands on. And I guess I could say the rest is history. So, yeah, that was, gosh, what was that? 35 years ago when I really began, when I really made that turn, that shift from a, the idea that the gifts had ceased. And by the way, for people who aren't familiar with the language, we're not talking about cessationism. We're not talking about what the South did in the middle of the 19th century withdrawing from the union. We're talking about cessationism, this idea that certain

gifts of the spirit were ceased to be given by God. Yes, and also not sensationalism. Right. So it sounds like the theology came first. What was your experience? of these gifts and your usage of the ministry then close behind that, simultaneous, far behind that? Well, to come perfectly clean here, and of course somebody who reads in my books will find this out. In 1970, at the beginning of my second year at the University of Oklahoma, I was blessed with a gift of tongues. Totally surprised by it. Caught off guard, wasn't praying banana back. over and over again and just was invaded by the presence of the Spirit. But for the next 20 years, I never used to gift. I suppressed it.

I figured out a way to somehow rationalize it out of my theological framework. I think deep down in my soul, I knew that it was real, but I was in a ministerial and educational context in which that would not have been well received. And I think a lot of it was fear and immaturity, and I just simply suppressed the gift. But prior to that, there had been no real, what I would call overt supernatural activity. That really didn't begin to change until about 1990, 91. We had a miraculous healing take place in our church. A young boy is about three or four weeks old, had a life-threatening liver ailment.

And it wasn't jaundice. It was his liver simply was not functioning. I've got the documentation written up by his physician, in fact. And we prayed for him. The elders of the church did. And he was miraculously healed. He's a thriving young man in his, I guess, in his early 30s even now. I think he still lives here at Oklahoma.

So that was kind of an inauguration into these matters. And then in January of 91, I was the recipient of my first prophetic word. I was at a vineyard conference in Anaheim. and this is when John Wimber was still alive and thriving leading the vineyard. And I had a man who I didn't know and he didn't know me. He quoted my prayers to me. He said, this is what you've been praying the last few nights. And I mean verbatim and told me things that were happening in my church,

that he would have known nothing about and how they would resolve themselves, which they did. And that was a very eye-opening experience, the idea that God really did, hear my prayers, and he actually communicated those to another who could speak them back to me for the purpose, as Paul says in 1st Corinthians 143, to encourage edify and console. So that was really the first few instances in which I began to experience and began to walk in these particular gifts of the Spirit. Let me ask you this. I have so many questions I want to get to, so I'll say them as fast as I can here. One of the questions I want to ask is about doing some triage with spiritual gifts, which means ranking them.

Sure. I've made it one of my goals with my YouTube channel because of the divisive state of the times, try to be ironic. So where would you put differences about cessationism, continuationism, on theological triage? Because I think you and I would agree, this is not necessarily an orthodoxy versus heresy kind of difference. That's right. It's not heretical.

It's not a first order or foundational doctrine, by which I mean one. that has been believed and accepted throughout the centuries and that we would generally say would probably be required for somebody to enter into the kingdom of heaven. Some of my dearest and closest friends are cessationists. I would make it a second order doctrine. It's certainly not third on the list or in the ranking. And the reason I say that is because of two texts of scripture. In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul defines spiritual gifts as the manifestation of the spirit for the common good. So spiritual gifts, they're not like a thing that you can hold in your hand.

Like if I were to give you the gift of a new book, although it doesn't look like you need anymore. Spiritual gifts are the Holy Spirit manifesting or displaying his presence through the ministries of God's people. So to deny and even to legislate against the exercise and the pursuit of these gifts in the church is in a sense to work contrary to the spirit's desire to manifest or display his presence for the good and the building up of the people of God. That would be a pretty serious matter. And then, of course, First Thessalonians five, Paul talks about quenching the spirit. and in context he's talking specifically about despising prophetic utterances.

So to despise or to look with the critical and cynical spirit on the operation of prophecy in the church is what Paul calls quenching the spirit. So quenching the Holy Spirit is a pretty serious matter. Now, again, all of us probably in a variety of ways of quench the spirit. We do it not just in how we respond to spiritual gifts, but perhaps any time that we suppress the spirit's promptings, we don't follow his lead, we don't rely upon him, but Paul specifically is talking about how we respond to prophecy in the local church. So if spiritual gifts are the manifestation of the spirit, and if in one particular case, I suppose you could extend this to all gifts, if despising prophecies is an example of quenching

the spirit, that's a fairly weighty issue. Again, it's not to elevate. elevated into a first-order doctrine, but it does mean that it's something that we need to seriously consider. And then I think I would probably throw in one more text, or actually two texts, 1st Corinthians 141 and verse 39, where Paul explicitly commands the church, earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. So to embrace a cessationist perspective means either that you just don't think that verse is relevant any longer, or maybe it is and you just chosen to disobey it, which is a pretty serious matter as well. So there are, there are grave and weighty matters associated with this discussion, but not such that we should

divide and separate from other believers. We have, we have some cessationists in our church, even though by our statement of faith, we're openly continuationist. We have covenant members in our church who are cessationists. Like I said, some of my best friends are. So, Again, we don't want to elevate it to a point where people who disagree with me on this are judged or regarded this somehow substandard or, you know, having, experiencing less of the Holy Spirit than perhaps I experience. But again, on the other hand, we need to realize that it is an important issue that I think these texts would bear out. Let's suppose someone's watching this and they're already a bit freaked out. They hear words like prophetic word and their alarm bells go off. maybe they've seen abuses, maybe they've seen a misuse of these gifts through something they were clicking through the TV and they saw things that were that freaked them out.

How, and they just think this stuff is kind of bonkers, how would you give a brief pastoral encouragement and theological encouragement to be open to considering what the continuationist perspective is? Well, let's just go back to First Thessalonians 5 and ask the question, why were the Thessalonian believers, which was a very mature church, despising prophetic utterances? My guess is because there were people in the first century, just like there are in the 21st, who were using this gift to manipulate, to gain control, to promote themselves. Maybe they were doing quirky, strange, odd things in the name of prophecy. And it had led them to embrace a rather cynical attitude. And Paul says, no. And that's why he says the solution isn't to despise prophetic utterances.

The solution, he goes on to say, is judge them. evaluate them, hold fast to what is good, reject what is evil. So I usually, and then again, this is part confession on my part, my reason for being a cessationist all those years wasn't due to anything I read in scripture. It was because of fear. It's fear of being associated with fanatics who were bringing reproach on the name of Christ. Fear of those you just mentioned that people come across on the internet or on TV or they've gone to a meeting. And they've seen hype and sensationalism and manipulation. They've seen it done in such a way that it's obviously fabricated.

I think, you know, they also, they say, well, it seems to me that so many of those who are practicing charismatics fall into other theological errors, like the Word of Faith movement or the prosperity gospel. And so I tell people, I say, look, whatever bad things that you have heard or have read about spiritual gifts. It wasn't from anything the Bible said. The Bible says nothing but positive things about the gifts. So I understand where people are coming from. I was there for many years. And it makes sense. I mean, we could probably sit here and cite examples of individuals who are an embarrassment because of the way that they have, they treated the Holy Spirit as almost as if he's a mechanical

force who can be cast here and there. But again, I would just challenge people. I said, just ask yourself the question that Jack Deere posed to me. Where is that in the Bible? And we have to be so committed to tethering our beliefs and our practices to the written word of God that that's really the only thing that's going to overcome fear. It's going to have to say, look, I'm going to align my life. I'm going to create a ministry philosophy and practice that is rooted in scripture and not in fear and not in abuse. Because I know, and I mean, you're in California, Gavin. You're in the land where so many of these kinds of abuses oftentimes happen. Not that you're exclusively the owner of those. Oklahoma, we've got quite a few here.

as well. It's all over the country, but people could immediately start mentioning certain names and certain churches to us. And my first response is, let's determine as best we can. Are these are brothers and sisters in Christ? Are we going to spend eternity with them? Have they been redeemed by the blood of the lamb? And if they have, then let's create a good foundation on which to continue the dialogue and not just reject out of hand the possibility of these gifts being operative today. But let's just commit ourselves to doing them biblically. Yeah, that's helpful. Okay. So let me ask you a series of rapid fire questions. Try to fill in some of the blanks for folks about just what are spiritual gifts.

So let me ask you first. What's the purpose of spiritual gifts? First Corinthians, 12-7, it's for the common good, the spiritual welfare, the building up of the body. And then especially in chapter 14, Paul uses the word edification over and over and over again. Spiritual gifts are designed to build up other believers. Whatever gift I have, it may benefit me. And I don't think anybody can exercise a spiritual gift without being blessed themselves. But that's not their primary goal. Their primary goal is to bless others, to instruct them, to encourage them, to challenge them,

sometimes to rebuke them, to hold them accountable, to highlight and shine, you know, a very clear light on the glory and the majesty of Christ. but just to build us up. I mean, Paul says it clearly in 1st, Quentin's 14.3. He says the one who prophesies does so for the encouragement, edification, and consolation of others. So it's, you know, this may be another question you're going to ask later is how can we know when it's a real spiritual gift and when it's not? Well, ask the question, does it actually edify, encourage, and console? Does it work for the common good? Is the body of Christ is unity? being fostered, is love for one another, being intensified. So that's the purpose of spiritual gifts. How many spiritual gifts are there? If we just went by what we have explicitly in scripture, it's around 19 or 20, largely depending on Ephesians 411, whether you believe pastor is a separate gift from teacher or pastor-teacher is one gift. I think that there, and this is a controversial point,

I think there are probably two or three other gifts that aren't explicitly mentioned in New Testament that would qualify. Every time we have a listing of spiritual gifts, it's different. No two lists are the same. Paul seems to just say, here's a representative list. Romans 12, 6 through 8 is different from 1st Corinthians 12, 7 through 10, which is different from the latter part of 1st, Corinthians 12, which is different from Ephesians 4. So I look, for example, at the gift of,

of intercession. Now, again, all of us are to pray. All of us intercede. But there are some Christians who just have a remarkable track record of answered prayer. And all they want to do is pray for others. Then there's what I would call the gift of interpretation. And I'm not talking about interpretation of tongues. But we see this in the Old Testament, Joseph interpreting the dreams of those who are in prison with him. Daniel interpreting Nebuchadnezzar's dream. And he says the interpretation comes from the Lord. So, for example, if you believe that dreams are still valid today, which I do, somebody comes to me and they say, Sam, I had this vivid drink. Can you tell me what it means? Well, my first response is, no, I'm not good at interpreting that. I know people who are,

who have principles by which they can somehow ascertain the meaning of it. So interpretation of revelatory data, I think would, and again, this isn't, this isn't how do you, interpret John 316. All Christians do that. We're not talking about interpreting scripture. We're talking about interpreting other revelatory experiences. And then maybe deliverance ministry. You know, I believe Luke 10 indicates that we all have authority over the demonic. But there are some Christians that I have known who are just extraordinarily confident and authoritative and successful in identifying a demonic presence and being a demonic presence and being able to set people free in casting it out. So 21 or 22 gifts, I think, is where I would land.

I've heard a few other suggestions. I'm not entirely convinced by them yet, but that's about how many I would see. Okay. Can one person have multiple spiritual gifts? Oh, absolutely. Look at Paul. Teaching, apostleship, tongues, prophecy, healing, leadership, evangelism. You know, that's just seven right off the top of my head. We also know this explicitly from Scripture because Paul is addressing Christians in Corinth who obviously if they're born again, they already have at least one gift. First Peter 4, 10, and 11 makes that clear. And yet he tells them earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially they may prophesy.

So he's telling people who are born again who already have at least one gift, earnestly desire more. And then in verse 13, he says, let the person who pray. praise in a tongue, pray that he may interpret. So here we have a person with the gift of tongues, and Paul says, pray that you would be able to interpret so you can utilize that gift in the corporate assembly to the building up of the body. So, yeah, there are, I think, numerous examples of that sort that would indicate you can have a multiplicity of gifts. How does somebody know what their gift is? Practice, fruit. Does it measure up to the standards and the principles of God's word. I mean, just take, for example, the gift of teaching. If you're asking yourself, do I have the

gift of teaching? Well, ask yourself, do people encourage me and tell me that I communicated the word of God clearly to them, and I blessed them by unpacking scripture? If you want to know, if you have the gift of evangelism, do you just find you burn with desire to see lost souls come to Christ? Are you, you find every opportunity to go out into the neighborhood or the mall and share your faith. The gift of giving. Do you just find yourself overwhelmingly generous and you just want to give as much as you can and even beyond what you're able? So I think practice, desire, the confirmation of others. It kind of also goes hand in hand with how do I find out what my gift is. We don't have to go down this path if you don't want to, but I'm not a huge fan of Spirit.

gift inventory tests, there's nothing unbiblical or sinful about them. I think the best way to find out what your gift is is to look for a need in the body of Christ. Look for somebody who's hurting. Look for somebody who's desperate. Look for somebody who's oppressed or untaught and step into their lives and just pour into them and maybe in the midst of that, your gift will find you as you seek to minister to others. Yeah. Let me ask some questions about specific spiritual gifts. start with prophecy and I'll share just a minute and then ask you a question about this. There's been times in my life where I believe God has spoken to me in a certain way and it has alleviated shame and guilt so powerfully that I don't even know how I'd be the same person today

if it hadn't been for that. I look back on that and I see just shockwaves of the impact that it had upon me and so I want to ask you and this is an encouragement for people watching this video who may, I don't know, you know, sometimes people, there is this fear, and sometimes it's a misunderstanding. I've had kids who they hear the term of the Holy Ghost, and shame on us for not explaining that. Yeah. We need to help them understand. Holy Ghost, you know, don't think a ghost or something like this. And so I want to encourage people to remember, the Holy Spirit is good.

You will never find a more loving person than the Holy Spirit. He is safe. He is kind. He's not always comfortable. But he's good. He loves you. Okay. So those times, that has been one of the most powerful experiences in my life, where to have God speak into your shame, into your struggles and so forth. Could you share a time in the spirit of edifying our viewers where the exercise of spiritual gifts has resulted in powerful spiritual fruit, either in your life or in your ministry? Well, how about I just share two examples from our church? in the last two weeks. Two weeks ago, a lady who has a very powerful prophetic gift, she comes to the platform and she says, there's a man here who has recently had a falling out with

his employer and you may even have been let go. The initials D.L. are very relevant to this situation and you're harboring bitterness in your heart and you need to forgive him. And we had two individuals who immediately identified. One was watching on live stream and said, yeah, my former employer's initials were DL and I am embittered and angry and I need to forgive him. And they were able to be led in prayer to forgive. And then just what, yesterday on Sunday morning. She has another word. She said, I had an impression of a woman here.

The number 35 is very important. And you are deeply concerned about your son. And you've been reading James 1 and James 3 lately and praying that into the life of your son, and if you'll come up for it, I would love to pray with you. Sure enough, a lady identified herself. It fit exactly what she'd been going through, been reading James 1 and James 3. We have those kinds of experiences happen on a regular basis. Now, we might want to call those word of knowledge as over against prophecy, but it's hard to differentiate between them because Paul doesn't. He never defines word of knowledge or word of wisdom. He gives us

example, we see examples of them in scripture, but we don't have explicit definitions. So I'd simply define prophecy as speaking forth in merely human words, something the spirit of God is brought to mind. So just to give you a quick illustration in my own life a number of years ago, it's kind of actually the, I think the first time it had ever happened to me. We had a group of individuals in our living room. We were worshiping and praying. and I mean immediately just out of nowhere the word endometriosis pops into my head. I don't think about the word. Most men don't, most men are listening or this saying, what in the world does that mean?

Well, you can go look it up. And I said, Lord, who's that for? And it was so bizarre. It was almost like the Lord put his hand here and turned my head and set him on this lady that I'd never met before she entered into my home that night. I'd met her. I remembered her name. So I pulled out my business card and I wrote down the word and I wrote down her name. And so after the singing was over and I said, I think the Lord might have given me a prophetic word or a word of knowledge for someone here.

Here's the word. Does that apply to anyone? I saw the corner of my eye, her hand just goes up in the air. And I said, well, I knew it was you. And of course, everybody could say, yeah, and after the fact, it's easy for you to say that. And so I pulled out the business card and I gave it to her. turned out they were struggling, they were infertile, they couldn't get pregnant. And I said, I don't think the Lord's necessarily saying he's going to heal you today of that, but I think you should go back to your doctor and explore the possibility.

And remember, this was in 1995. This was way before a lot of the medical technology of discerning that particular affliction was available. Nine months later, she sends me a picture of her twin sons. So things like that, it's the way. It's the way prophecy operates, the way it should operate. Not a, they thus say if the Lord, God told me that you're supposed to marry Sally, or you're supposed to quit your job and move to Denver. That sort of thing is very dangerous.

It's very manipulative and should be avoided at all costs. I want to underscore words you mentioned a while back from 1st Corinthians 14-3. Upbuilding, encouragement, consolation. This is the effect of the gift of prophecy in people's lives. Think of that word consolation. It is, it builds you up. It doesn't tear you down. If someone's claiming to speak in prophecy and it's harsh and it's hateful, that's not from the Holy Spirit.

It comes to a build, and that's just helpful for people to be mindful of that particular verse. Especially given the fact that 1st, 3rd 13 comes between chapters 12 and 14. And Paul's point there clearly is. You operating these gifts and there's no love, you're of no value to anybody. on. Yes. Let me ask about the gift of discerning of spirits. I preached a sermon yesterday. We talked about discernment that I mentioned this. This is a really important gift. What is, as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 1210, what is that gift? Why is it important? Well, once again, we're at a little bit of a disadvantage because Paul doesn't define it. And it's the only place in the New Testament where

it's mentioned. But I think we have examples of it in operation. I think Acts 16, might well be an instance. You remember the slave girl who was proclaiming that Paul was, you know, declaring the greatness of God. The amazing thing about it is what she was saying was true. But Paul evidently discerned that she was being energized by a demonic spirit and he proceeded to cast out the spirit. Another example, I'm quickly turning in my Bible to it, is Acts chapter 13.

where Paul is preaching to Sergius Paulus, the proconsul. And it says that Elimus, the magician, was opposing them. But Paul, who was said, was filled with a spirit, looked intently at him and said, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness. So he's filled with a spirit. He looks at this man, and he has this revelation that he's being energized by Satan, by a demonic spirit. And of course, he pronounces this judgment on him. So discerning the spirits is in all likelihood.

This is my opinion. The capacity, the spirit empowered capacity, to know when the spirit of God is at work in some way, as over against a demonic spirit, as over against perhaps the flesh or just the emotional brokenness of an individual. I suppose we could extend it into other areas of just general discernment. But since it's discerning of spirits, I think Paul has in mind what I think every Christian counselor wished that they had. Dealing with somebody trying to figure out what in the world is behind this individual's addiction or their problem or their struggle. Is it a demonic spirit?

Is it a carryover from an abusive childhood? So knowing when the spirit is at work and when the enemy is at work, and sometimes that's, that's kind of hard because demons seek to copycat and counterfeit everything the Spirit does. I think that's probably the way the gift operates. I had this happen one time very explicitly. We were on a prayer walk in Kansas City. Our church was, and I was with three or four other people. And we were in our neighborhood, and we walked onto the grounds of an elementary school.

And I mean instantly, and again, it's hard to describe until you've experienced. instantly I felt this horrific foreboding, this heaviness, this darkness just engulfed me. And I said, people, there's something wicked that's been going on here. And we didn't know what it was. We walked about 10 feet more. We turned a corner and there was this little nook in the building. And there was 666. It had been spray painted on the walls, pentagrams.

There was a little, the residue of a little altar of fire that had been burned there, some sort of satanic ritual had taken place. And it led us to pray for the protection of the children in that school and for discernment and knowing who should or should not be allowed on school grounds. I think that's how the gift of discerned the spirit of discerned spirits operates. Let's suppose someone's watching this and they're desirous to grow in their experience of spiritual gifts. What counsel would you give to help them?

And I'd like to throw out one thought myself in case it's, just sparks thoughts as well here, is that I found it useful to get together with other Christians that you respect for their perspective on these things, their openness, their godliness, and ask them to lay hands on you and pray for you. That is just a bait, and just have an open heart, and I've just been amazed the Holy Spirit just does things in that. What counsel would you give? Well, what you just mentioned there is precisely what Paul says in 1, Timothy 4.14. He tells Timothy, do not neglect the gift. gifts you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you.

And in Second Timothy 1-6, Paul talks about rekindling the gift that is in you through the laying on of my hand. So he laid hands on Timothy, and Timothy received a spiritual gift. So let me just say one thing up front about this. There are some people who think that you can't teach or train people in spiritual gifts, since God is sovereign in their bestowal. either have it or you don't. Well, that's true. We can't manipulate the Spirit of God. First Corinthians 12-11. He distributes gifts according to his will. But take yourself for an example. How long have you been in pastoral ministry? How many years? Thirteen. Have you grown in your effectiveness as a teacher? Yes. Well, I hope you.

Yeah. All of us have. Yeah. Well, how? Well, through practice, repetition, through study, through receiving criticism and feedback, evaluate, all gifts you can deepen and intensifying them. You can't create them. The spirit does that, but there are a multitude of ways in which you can grow in your capacity. For example, we have a prophetic training at Bridgewell, although I'm no longer senior pastor. We had during my 14 years there, we would have seminars, and we would talk to people about, here's something you should do, here's something you shouldn't do. Here are things to avoid saying. Here are things you should say. Here's a way in which you can perhaps discern if your gift is accurate with regard to the person. Evangelism. Somebody who really maybe desires

the gift of evangelism? Well, hang out with other people who are passionate about sharing their faith and watch how they do it and listen and learn and then step out in faith and do it yourself. and you'll grow, you'll become more effective, you'll refine your capacity to utilize that presence of the spirit, to bringing people to saving faith in Christ. So read good books on the subject, hang out with people who have a similar passion, hang out with people who already operate in that gift, be willing to take risks, to step out in faith, to exercise the gift, when you think there's an opportunity to do so, always asking for. for feedback from people about, you know, did I do something that made anybody feel uncomfortable? Was anybody blessed by it? So there are a lot of things that can be done in order to kind of train and grow in the effectiveness of your spiritual gift. Okay. That's really helpful. Final question on spiritual gifts. There's others that we can come

back to at the end if we want to, but this is the last one I'll ask for now. Then we'll go to spiritual warfare. For a pastor or leader who'd like to encourage the use of spiritual gifts in those among whom they're serving, how can they do that in ways that will be wise and not explosive? And I'm going to mention two things that I've thought about and see what you think about these, but add on or disagree or, you know, go any direction you want here.

One thing I found is always, always just relentlessly tying it back to scripture, bring everything back to scripture, and because there is so much in the scripture we can point to, and the second is, and I don't know if you'd agree it or not, I found that it doesn't always have to be in the main worship service. I think there's a place for starting off in certain ways in a small group context, a Sunday school, another venue like that. It's at least worth giving some thought to that. What would you say to encourage a pastor thinking about this? Yeah, let me take that last part of the question first.

I do not advise or recommend that you try to exercise spiritual gifts in the corporate assembly of God's people in the sense that you open it up for anybody to speak or to minister. That's very hard, especially in churches where several hundred, if not a couple of thousand people are present. Now, we do have prophetic ministry every Sunday morning, at least the opportunity for it. We always have people up front who've been trained to pray for the sick every Sunday morning. But doing it in small groups is the place to begin. And the reason for that is because in a small group, you know the people, you don't live in fear that if you miss it, you're going to get hammered or humiliated or ridiculed. You're willing

to take risks. But I'm coming back. Okay. Oh, the first part of your question, I actually, if I may be allowed to shamelessly promote a book of mine, I was getting this question from dozens and dozens of pastors and average Christians. I believe in it theologically. I'm terrified of what's going to do to my church. What do I do? How do I proceed? And I got tired of writing the same email answers over and over again, so I wrote a book called Practicing the Power. It came out in 2017 from Zondervin,

and it basically is written primarily for pastors, but also for all Christians. Any Christian can benefit from it. Here are steps to take. Here are things to avoid as you seek to implement these things. And so I would say, first and foremost is what you said. you have to teach and preach consistently on the subject. So, for example, I got an email today from the pastor of a very large Southern Baptist Church here in Oklahoma City,

who has just begun, has been reading my book and several others on the subject, and he's just begun preaching through 1 Corinthians 12 through 14. And he said the people are excited, and this is probably traditionally, a historically cessationist church. you have to say to people, look, folks, if I recommend or if I practice anything as pastor of this church that you can't find in scripture, you hold me to account. You call me to account. So we have to instruct. We have to demonstrate that it's come from the Word of God and not from our own fertile imagination or our own desires. So I think preaching it consistently, teaching it, develop a very vibrant, prayer ministry in the church, train people and how to pray. It's amazing how many Christians who've been Christians for decades, you say, hey, would you just go over there and pray for Mike, lay hands on him and pray for him? And they go, I don't know how to do that.

You've been a Christian for 40 years, but they've never been taught just the simple principles of how to pray for another believer. You have to train people in this sort of thing. So those are just some of the steps. and I go into much greater detail in practicing the power that I hope will be helpful to people. Awesome. I'll put a link to practicing the power as well in the video description. Anyone interested, click on that, check out the book. Sam's written so many different books in these areas.

This interview is really focused on his books, understanding spiritual gifts, and then understanding spiritual warfare. So I'll put links to those as well. And then I want to share too. The book that, well, I would say this was the single most helpful resource. When I went through my study of this back in the day, and that's Sam's contribution to the Our Miraculous Gifts for Today, Four Views book, the book put up by Zondervin. He just goes through each of the different cessationist arguments, you know, that the gift, once the closure of the canon is over, there's no more need of prophecy. That's one argument.

Each of these different arguments, he goes through and he gives good responses. So people can check out that as well. Let me ask you about spiritual warfare. Maybe you could start on this topic by sharing the story. of what you experienced in August of 1993. You start off understanding spiritual warfare sharing this story. It was in Kansas City, and someone came and said, there was a woman by the sound booth invoking evil spirits.

Can you share with us what happened? Oh, my. Yeah. I think I probably had encounters with the demonic, with certain individuals before that, but nothing, the scale of what happened that day. what happened was after I got this word that this lady's chanting and, you know, doing incantations behind the sound booth. And I thought, yeah, just leave her alone.

Maybe she'll go away. What happened was about 15 minutes later, a gentleman in our church was walking toward me. And this lady was following him. And he came to me, he said, Sam, can you please tell her to leave me alone? She's chanting demonic words to me. Evan, I don't know how else to describe it. I've tried to get language for this, and it's hard, especially for people who might be skeptical by nature or who've never experienced it. When that lady walked toward me, she got about six feet from me, I felt this incredible wave of wickedness.

And I've often tried to say it was like liquid air, because I felt it tangelo. It wasn't just that I was discerning something. I physiologically and mentally felt the presence of this wave of horribly dark energy. I became nauseated. I was about to throw up right there in the auditorium of our church. I couldn't think. I wasn't even able to put two coherent sentences together. Fortunately, there was another young lady there in our church who was experiencing the same thing,

and she had the good sense. She grabbed me by the arm. She pulled me away. And as I moved away from that lady, I kind of returned to a bit of normalcy. I've never, I'd never experienced anything that bad before. That was certainly discerning the spirits, but far more than that. I think it was God awakened to me of the fact, Sam, did you put on the full armor of God today? Or did you just presume upon that because you're a Christian, you're invulnerable to demonic activity?

That was an important lesson. The interesting thing was, I'll bring this to a quick close. This was on a Saturday. Two days later, on a Monday morning, we had a regular Monday morning morning prayer meeting in the prayer room of the church. There were probably 30 or 40 people present. Now, my wife was the church receptionist. So she's there.

It's about 10 o'clock in the morning. This lady walks in. And I, again, I don't know how to describe it. The most horrible stench that you could ever imagine. And we're not talking about body odor. Just rancid smell. We just surrounded her. Anne was so put off. She ran into the prayer room to find me. She said, Sam, that lady is here. Well, that lady walks into the prayer room, and I mean everybody there just almost loses their breakfast. We were able somehow to coax this lady into one of the pastor's offices. And myself and two other pastors began to minister to her for a couple of hours, shared the gospel, letter to Christ, cast out multiple demons. That lady got gloriously. saved and became one of the most faithful volunteers in our children's ministry.

So it was a unique encounter that just opened my eyes to what I probably had believed intellectually but had never actually experienced. I've had a couple of similar instances since then, but nothing as quite as powerful. Of course, by the way, we found out when we interviewed this lady, she was involved in all manner of occultic activity in one of the suburbs of Kansas City. earth worship, animism, divination, just all sorts of things. But it was a glorious conclusion to a really deeply troubling encounter. In the book, you point out that a lot of Christians are unprepared for spiritual warfare,

even though there's so much throughout the scripture about angels and demons. So tell us maybe to start with, what are demons and how do they act? Well, we know demons are angels because, you know, Jesus even said, that the lake of fire has been prepared for the devil and his angels. Revelation 12, the demonic host are referred to as angels. So not all angels are good and holy. Now, I think they originally were. There's a big debate about when did that sector of the angelic host rebel and fall? We don't know. The Bible doesn't tell us. It seems to me that it probably had to have happened prior to Genesis 1. There are others who think that it happens. It can

continues to happen throughout the course of human history. I'm not convinced by that. Michael Heiser believes that, and it's taught it in his book on demons. Yeah, the question about what do demons do, I mean, there's so many things we read in scripture. They work in active opposition to the gospel. They oppress individuals. I mean, maybe the best way is think about the armor of God in Ephesians 6, and then look at the inverse of each of those. They seek to undermine. faith. They want to cause... In fact, I have never yet dealt with somebody who was under serious demonic attack who didn't doubt their salvation. The assurance of salvation is often undermined. Sometimes demons can cause illness, not always. We'll never conclude that all illness is

demonically induced, but, you know, read Luke 13, Luke 138, which very clearly would indicate that the enemy can cause... some sort of physical ailment. I think of 2nd Corinthians 2, where Paul appeals to the Corinthians to receive and forgive the man who had sin because he was repentant. He says, because we are not ignorant of Satan's devices. Evidently, the enemy wants to bring disunity in the body of Christ. We, you know, Paul talks about doctrines of demons. So there are very clear concepts or ideas that are demonic in their nature and their focus that we are to avoid, certainly some people can be demonized.

They can be indelped by a demonic spirit and have their lives crippled and paralyzed spiritually. So they're just a whole wide array of things that demons do. You mentioned people who have doubts about assurance of salvation. You know, this is off script, but it's too important pastorally to not dwell on that for just a moment because I know many of my viewers struggle with that. They struggle with a lack of assurance of salvation, doubts, deep anxieties. So a pastoral word of encouragement for them I would like to offer and then feel free if you want to say anything about this is Romans 816.

The spirit bears witness with our spirit so that we know that we are children of God. And I would encourage people if they struggle with this, ask a trusted Christian to lay hands on you and pray that the Holy Spirit would bear witness in your heart that you are a child of God. Do you want to say anything to pastor people who have that struggle? Yes, I agree. Your appeal to Romans 816 is very helpful. Also Romans 8-1. I would just remind people, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So again, if the enemy can put doubts in our mind, if he can sow the seeds of really questioning whether or not we are loved of God and children of God, he can accomplish a great thing.

deal. So I think just simply, you know, looking to the internal witness of the spirit that you mentioned, pointing an individual to the things that God has already done in their life, the fruit that they have witnessed, that they're experiencing. I just press in on John 316. Have you really believed in the Lord Jesus Christ? If you have, then you're assured that you have eternal life and you shall never perish. But demons are demonic when it comes to that issue. They really, really want to cripple and paralyze us by causing us to doubt our relationship with the Lord. Do you think demons cause sickness? The reason I ask is, I read through the Gospels once, I was amazed at looking for this.

I was amazed at how many times the exorcism and the healing go together. And, you know, there was one time I can't remember where where it's even referred to as a disabling spirit. That's Luke 13. Yeah, Luke 13, this woman who has been over double. and Jesus referred to her having a disabling spirit or a spirit of infirmity. And he says, should not she be set free because Satan has kept her in this condition for all these many years. In the next 1038, where Peter is describing to Cornelius the ministry of Jesus,

he said, you know how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil. Now, I don't think that means that everybody who was sick was sick because they were oppressed by the devil, but whichever ones were, Jesus healed them. So, yeah, there is undoubtedly a connection, not an always one-to-one. You know, if you're suffering from a migraine, you have a, you know, have a demonic spirit.

Or if you, you know, if you've broken an arm and it's not healing rapidly, it's because of a demon. No, I don't believe that. But yes, Satan and his demons can indeed cause physical affliction. I preach to the book of Daniel. recently and Daniel 10 was amazed at what looks like territorial demons, demons who seem to have even a sort of govern, even some sort of domination or dominion over a particular nation. There's the Prince of Persia that's mentioned, things like this. Do you think demons can be

territorial? Absolutely. I think Daniel 10 is a classic illustration of that. There are a couple of other reasons why I think that may be the case. Think about when Jesus was casting demons out and they said, please don't send us out of the country. But why would they ask that? Could it be because Satan had assigned them to that particular territory and they feared his reprisal if they were not present? Or what about, is it the letter to Pergamum in Revelation 2? Jesus talks about Pergamum as where Satan's throne is and where Satan dwells. Could it be that that city was somehow uniquely identified by Satan as the base of his operations. So, and then again, you know, you think about all the categorizations of the demonic spirit,

principalities, powers, dominions, thrones, authorities. Why all that differentiation of language, if they are all of the same sort doing the same thing, could it be that those, you know, their dominions, their authorities, their principalities? well, there has to be something over which you are exerting dominion, something or someone over whom you're exerting authority. Could that be the result of Satan having assigned certain demons to certain geographical or geopolitical entities? And I think the answer is probably yes.

What are behaviors that Christians can do that can cause demons to have a foothold in their life or to have an inroad into their life? is it, you know, things, even I'm curious your thoughts on things like Ouija boards, fortune tellers, this kind of stuff. Do you think there can be a demonic stronghold that can come in through some of those things? What do you see is the inroads? Yes. The answer to that is yes. I think immediately the most common open door to the demonic is unconfessed, unrepentant sin. Ephesians 4, where Paul talks about be angry, but do not sin, do not have to sin.

son go down on your anger lest you give the enemy. Literally the Greek word is a tapas. We get our word topography from it. When you look at how that word is used in the New Testament, it very often, if not most cases, refers to a place of operation. So for us to persist in unrepentant, unconfessed sin, opens a door for the enemy to gain a foothold. Some translations render it an opportunity, others say a foothold. It's literally a place. I think obviously a cultic activity. You mentioned a few things. That can certainly be the case. I'll give you one example. I dealt with one young lady who was seduced and lost her virginity to her boyfriend in the home of his mother. His mother was a witch. And she sold me. She said there's all sorts of occultic

paraphernalia all over the house. I think when she, allowed herself to be seduced into that situation. She likely, as it were, gave a place or a foothold for the enemy. So there are a variety of ways in which this can happen. Here's the interesting thing. Mark 7 and Mark 9 describe both a young girl, the daughter of the Sari Phoenician woman in Mark 7 and the young son of a man who came to Jesus in Mark 9. And Jesus asked him, how long has this demon afflicted him? And he said, from his infancy, from his childhood. What child couldn't have done anything?

What could that child have done to have given the enemy a place? Could it be? I'm just asking the question. I'm not giving an answer. Could it be that there was a demonic foothole or place in that young child's ancestry that when those ancestors died, the demons had to go somewhere. Maybe they sought to move to the next born in that generational line. So people say, oh, there's no such thing as involuntary demonization.

Well, Mark 7 and Mark 9 prove otherwise. There's nothing that little girl in Mark 7 or the little boy in Mark 9 could have done that could have opened the door to the demonic. Maybe because, especially Mark 7, the Sirephanician woman was a pagan Gentile. Maybe she and her family had been involved in a cultic activity or pagan worship and giving themselves over to idols. Maybe that's what opened the door to the demonic. into our daughter's life.

Let's proclaim the gospel here as we get towards the end. Jesus has won the victory on the cross through his resurrection over Satan. I want people watching this video to feel that. You know, maybe someone's watching this and they are wondering, you know, maybe there's a demonic influence in a certain area of my life. How do we help them claim and live in the victory of Christ over demonic powers? The first thing they need to realize, one of the most important texts in the Bible in this subject is Luke.

chapter 10. Here are 72 average followers of Jesus. They're not apostles. They're not pastors. They're not elders. They're not even named. And yet Jesus says to them, even they said that Jesus, even the demons are subject to us in your name. In your name, not subject to us. In your name. And Jesus said, I've given you authority. And again, average followers, not seminary grads, not ordained individuals. Average followers. He said, I've given you authority. And again, average followers. He said, giving you authority over all the power of the enemy. Most Christians don't realize, just think about it, Gavin. This was done before Pentecost. It was done before the cross, before the resurrection. If anything, we have even greater authority now that we stand on this side of the accomplishment of

Jesus in his death, resurrection, and exaltation. And then I would just remind Christians of Colossians 2, verse 14, where he says that he has set aside. the record of death that stood against us, nailing it to the cross, he disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame by triumphing over them through the cross. And so Christians need to take those texts and commit them to memory. Ephesians 1 versus about 18 through the end of the chapter where we have been seated with Christ in the heavenlies beneath whose feet, all principalities and powers have been subjected. I'm just afraid that so many Christians have no idea of the reality of the authority that Christ has given them over the demonic. They don't have

to be afraid. Not say, go looking for a fight, but don't ever run from one because you have the authority of the risen and exalted Jesus through the power of the spirit to gain victory over the demonic. Suppose your friend is demonized, and let's say this person is a Christian, but let's just say it's like a harassment. Satan is called the accuser of the brethren. I think this is the way I experience satanic opposition, sometimes these viciously accusatory thoughts that come and assault me. So suppose someone is experiencing something like this. How do you minister to someone who's under demonic attack? First thing I would do, knowing that they are Christians, is to have them confess their identity in Christ. Who are you in Jesus? What has he done for you? Have them

verbally declare it, make it known aloud. I would take them to Ephesians 1. I mentioned a moment to go, verses 18 to the end of the chapter. Colossians 2, Romans chapter 8, the last paragraph of Romans 8, and have them recite aloud these truths about what God has done for them in Jesus. So that I think is the first step that I would take. If there's still ongoing harassment and oppression, there may come a point where I need to take authority on their behalf to call out the demonic presence, to cast it out, to command it never to return. You know, there are a lot of steps. I talk about the various models of deliverance ministry in my book, but there's, you know,

there's what are called the truth encounter and the power encounter. The truth encounter is articulating biblical truth, that individual himself or herself, declaring what they know to be the case in terms of their relationship with Jesus. And then also the power encounter is exactly what Jesus did. He confronted the demons. He cast them out. He said, do not return. And it was amazing the degree of authority that he had.

But again, he's given us that self-same authority. And we just need to have the confidence to be able to exercise it. That's awesome. Well, Sam, this has been so helpful and wonderful. I know people will be blessed by it. Thank you for taking the time. Let me ask you one last question about angels. Sometimes we don't think as much about angels as we do about demons.

Over the last year or so, for various reasons, I started praying more that God would send angels to protect people. And I think that's totally valid. A lot of times in my life, I've worried about over-focusing on angels, but I think we can under-focus on them. And I think it's encouraging to remember. God is using angels to serve and protect and blesses people. So what would you say is the appropriate attitude or disposition we should have toward angels? how much should that be a part of our thoughts and our prayers? As much as the Bible gives us warrant, angels, we must remember, are created beings.

They're not God. They are not omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. You know, very clearly in the book of Revelation, when John was tempted to fall down in the presence of an angel and worship, but they said, no, don't worship me, worship Jesus. So if there's ever any tendency that you find yourself beginning to obsess with angelic activity, to the exclusion of the supremacy and the centrality of Christ in your prayers and in your relationship with God. Then you know you've crossed a line. But again, I agree with you. There's massive angelic activity. They've been sent out, according to Hebrews 1, to minister and to serve those who inherit

salvation. You know, we didn't get into the question of guardian angels. Is there such a thing? But certainly angels and Daniel 10 would be a good place for people to start. Go to Daniel 10 and read the chapter for yourself and see how angels ministered to Daniel in response to his prayers. Awesome. Okay. Well, thank you again, Sam. I know this will be really helpful to people. Grateful for you. Grateful for your friends. You have for your ministry. May the Lord bless you. And thanks everybody for watching. Don't forget to check out the video description and check out some of Sam's work so you can keep growing in this area. Thanks for watching, everybody. We'll see you next time.