Truth Unites - The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, and "Deconstruction"

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

This video is a personal reflection on The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill  podcast, hosted by Mike Cosper and produced by Christianity Today. The  podcast tells the story of Mars Hill Church under the leadership of Mark  Driscoll. I use the podcast as an occasion to reflect on the broader  phenomenon of spiritual deconstruction in the church and particularly in  evangelical culture.   In the video I recommend the ministry of Diane Lamberg for helping  people understand abuse and trauma: https://www.dianelangberg.com/  Learn more about the podcast here: https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/ Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus. Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai. SUPPORT: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/truthunites One time donation: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/truthunites FOLLOW: Twitter: https://twitter.com/gavinortlund Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TruthUnitesPage/ Website: https://gavinortlund.com/

Hey everybody, this video is going to be about the rise and fall of Mars Hill podcast. And then springing from that, I want to talk about the deconstruction movement that we're seeing today. And I probably don't need to say too much to introduce the podcast. It's incredibly popular. And Mike Kaspur and the other folks at Christianity Today did an incredible job with it. My wife and I listen to each episode, talk about it all the time. One of the things we've talked about is just knowing how much work goes into my videos. I can only imagine how hard they worked on that podcast, just the, because the production

quality is just incredible and the amount of interviews and so forth. It's, it's pretty remarkable. So I want to, I want to offer some reflections about it. I've waited a little while to do this, partly to gather my own thoughts, and partly I didn't want it to be about hype or something like that. This is not a hot take. This is a little bit more of a settled and modest engagement. and not a review of the podcast, but just a personal engagement and reflection. And I want to look through the window of this one particular podcast to just ask some questions and offer some reflections about the broader world of, especially the American Evangelical Church and the Evangelical Church and other parts of the West.

So I have two basic takeaways or observations. One is about deconstruction, one is about reconstruction. So first on deconstruction, one of the feelings that I had throughout listening to the podcast, I don't know if anyone else can relate to this. It's just this weird feeling of discomfort of wondering at what point could this become kind of gossipy for me to be listening to, you know? And I ask that question not as a judgment on anyone else listening or on anyone who is involved in producing it.

again, they did a really good job. But more in the spirit of kind of like, I don't know, partly I'm somewhat oversensitive to gossip as it is. So because I'm not always sure where that line is and it can be kind of tricky, sometimes I shy away from it altogether. So I have this, you know, but that's more just about me. But there's this feeling of kind of like, do I need to know all these gory details of a church that I don't have anything to do with, you know. But ultimately, as I reflected upon that and kept listening to it and talking with my wife about it. I came to around on that and I came to feel that while it is good to be discerning about the effects of listening to something, and really we should ask that question of,

is this unhealthy for me? Anything can become that. So we have to have discernment as the consumers of things like this. But ultimately, I came around to feel very grateful that the story is being told and that it's out there, even with all the details, and even in all kind of the ugliness of it. Partly because Mark Driscoll is still currently in ministry as of this moment, and I think that his current church needs to know of what happened. And partly because of the people who were wounded by his ministry, I think it's hard for people to understand what it feels like when you are wronged by someone in a position of spiritual authority. And this is why this was so meaningful to my wife and to me to reflect upon because we are victims of spiritual abuse.

We were profoundly mistreated in a church context many years ago. And it's hard to convey how painful that is, unless someone has been through that. The darkness, the confusion, the disorientation, just what that does to somebody psychologically when pain is inflicted upon you and mistreatment is inflicted upon you by someone in a position of spiritual authority, especially, and this is, I think, part of what makes it so terrible is when there's not repentance or acknowledgement of it. When there's repentance, everything can go differently. But when you're mistreated and then sort of gaslit, you know, for objecting to the treatment, that is a very deep kind of pain.

And it happens, unfortunately, a lot. in the church. When I was working through the podcast, the episode that meant the most to me was episode seven. And my wife and I spent a lot of time talking about this one. That one is entitled State of Emergency, I think. And it tells the story, among a few other things, of two elders at Mars Hill who were mistreated and removed. And I remember listening to that. And I can't remember if one of those men said this. I didn't go back and listen to it again. I can't remember if he said this or if I just thought this as I listened to him talk. I think it was that. But he was saying something kind of like this where basically the reason it hurts so bad is because you love the church.

And they were talking about how much they loved the church and how much they even, that was so interesting to think about for people who were being interviewed in the podcast. This was a theme that came up a lot is it wasn't like it was all 100% negative at Mars Hill. God was working there. They built friendships there. There were good things. And so he was talking about how much he loved the church and that's why it hurts so much when everyone turned on him. And I remember thinking, that is why. Somebody once said there's no hurt like church hurt. I thought that is why church hurt is so devastating. It's because church is also a place that touches this really deep, positive part of our lives. You know, we really, we give a big part of ourselves to church. If we're doing it right,

You know, we care about it. We love the people there. And when someone is mistreated, as many people were mistreated by Mark Driscoll's ministry, there's the pain of that is exacerbated when it's swept under the rug, minimized, et cetera. And there's a level of healing. I believe, I'm saying all of this from a standpoint of not being an expert. I'm not a psychologist. You know, I don't understand even all the terminology for all of this. But I know, I know. enough to have some sense of this that there can be a measure of healing when there's an open acknowledgement of the wrongdoing. So in this case, for the story to be chronicled and in, you know, great detail, I think is helpful to people who have been victimized by spiritual abuse. And for some reason, and I don't understand this, but it just seems to me that often in the church there isn't that open acknowledgement. And there's this sense of we want to minimize things, we want to do damage control, we want to downplay, and even sometimes when people are mistreated in a church

and they call it out and they say this is wrong, then this happens so much. I've often reflected on Cain and Abel, the story of Cain and Abel where there's the first great sin against another person. Genesis 3 is a sin, but Genesis 4 is a particular kind of sin, murder, you know. And the way there's the wrongdoing,

but then there's the following self-justification. and how that is just so the way of the world. For some reason, I think this happens so much in the church where people are mistreated and then they're blamed. And then there's the self-justification. There's the gaslighting. There's the flipping it somehow, twisting it somehow. And I think what people, I would encourage people

who haven't been through an experience like that to try to understand is the level of pain that that causes. Psychologically, that just does something to you. It damages you at a deep level. And so as I have reflected and wrestled with this, I have come to the view that I think it's good for us to, as painful as it is, as uncomfortable as it is, as much as sometimes some of us may feel like we need to take a break or not listen to it for personal reasons, if it's not good for us or if it's too painful. Nonetheless, it's good for the story to be out there. Open acknowledgement of sin is necessary and important. And as I've come to that conclusion, it's made me reflect upon a broader issue outside of Mars Hill and just a broader issue in the church. And that's related to the whole deconstruction movement right now, which I don't even know how to define.

When I say deconstruction movement, I don't know exactly what the parameters of that are. But it does seem like there's a lot of people deconstructing right now. And one of the things that reflecting on all this has done for me, and by the way, this video is going to be a bit rambling. Most of my videos are very tightly scripted and I keep it moving. this one's a little more personal so it's a little bit more might be roving around to different topics but a little bit more from my heart on this one one one of the things that reflecting on all this has done for me is make me resolve to do my best to not mistreat people you know when we're I'm a pastor when we're in a position of spiritual authority we need to remember how much we are capable of

doing either good or bad in people's lives the very position position that enables us to minister gives us power to harm, you know? And so I was thinking of like the dentist, you know, if you're a dentist and you're like pulling a tooth out or something, you're going to be very careful because you realize if I pull the wrong tooth out, if I don't give them enough of the painkiller, if I do something else and strike a nerve, I'm in a position where I could cause incredible pain. And one of the things I've reflected upon is just for those of us in a leadership position in ministry, we need to take at the heart every single day. No matter what's going on in the height of conflict, whatever else is happening, we need to

take that so seriously. We are capable of really, really damaging people. And again, it's hard to convey how much pain is caused when there is abuse or sin in a church context, when it's people in a position of spiritual authority that are doing that. So the broader observation is this, that I think one of the reasons why so many people are deconstructing is because of this dynamic stories like the one at Mars Hill. People who were mistreated in a church context in some way or another, and then there isn't an open acknowledgement of it. I think people can more likely bounce back when there's simply mistreatment. But when there's mistreatment, there's abuse, there's sin, whatever it is, and then there's the long, protracted, agonizing process of self-justification

where it's not openly acknowledged. It's minimized in some way. You know, that really damages people at a deep level, and I suspect that that's one of the factors that is causing so many people to deconstruct their faith or some aspect of their faith. And so, I guess the sort of broader observation would be. Because I do think that the story of Mars Hill is worth reflecting upon it because it's not just about Mars Hill. It opens up a window into some broader issues in the church today. And I noticed this, I thought Mike Cosper was very insightful in the commentary.

And I noticed this throughout, this was sort of a theme, you know, that what's happening at Mars Hill is something none of us can simply look the other way and say, Oh, that is irrelevant to my life. You know, on the contrary, what would happen there is something that we need to kind of consider. What is the larger culture that we're all a part of? In the introduction to the podcast, there were a couple of quotes that I still remember, because you hear the introduction each time, you know, and music comes on. And one of them is a female person saying, why are we not looking at the deep-seated reasons for this?

And I don't know who was saying that. I'm sure I could have looked it up. another was a male person, a man saying, it might be Chuck de Groat this time, I'm not sure, saying we have a culture of church members who would prefer a narcissist leading the church. And I thought those were such interesting comments. Yeah, like, why aren't we looking at this? And for those of us who are concerned as I am, and I've put out a video on spiritual deconstruction, I've now written a book on the existence of God and apologetics, and I'm very concerned about people who are leaving the faith altogether. For those of us who are concerned about spiritual deconstruction, in the church, I think we need humility to listen to stories like Mars Hill and others and consider why people are deconstructing. Because some people talk and act as though deconstruction is only a bad thing. Like the only reason anyone would ever deconstruct is because they have bad motives. And I really, from my vantage point, I don't think that's the case at all.

I think a lot of people are deconstructing from a sincere concern about real, I get to use the strongest word I can, evil, that they see in the church. And if it's not openly acknowledged, that contributes to this, you know, and deconstruction takes many different forms. But man, I'm just so burdened that we need to be able to openly acknowledge. And this is, I would say, as I look at the evangelical church right now, what I've tried to open myself up to and to consider, Not that I feel like I have got all the answers and can see it all, but what I'm starting to ask more pressing questions about is, you know, what are the things that need to be deconstructed? What are the things, just like we look back in church history and we can see the good plants and the weeds all growing together, you know? Well, today, God is building his church, but there are things that are unhealthy and dysfunctional within the church.

there's unhealthy things within evangelical church culture, okay, about how we relate to power, about where we tolerate narcissism, about various forms of sinful prejudice, like racism or sexism, and so forth. And sometimes we're blind to the weeds. We just see the good plants growing up. We don't see the weeds growing up with them, and it's so tricky to try to disentangle all of that. And part of what is happening with deconstruction that we need to consider, is people are reacting against the weeds. You know, they're seeing the real problems, and rightly so. So it seems to me that, and this is my first observation, that we need humility and courage.

We need humility to really listen and not assume that we see all the problems that people are reacting against. And we need courage because it's really vulnerable to open up yourself to this possibility that, you know, there may be weeds and good things all growing together in my ministry, in my own life, in my church context, in my broader awareness, and asking that question of kind of like opening yourself up to the Holy Spirit's refining fire of what needs to be purged away, you know? And there's a good aspect to deconstruction.

The philosopher Nietzsche used to say it's not the courage of your convictions, it's the courage to attack your convictions. Now that could be misunderstood, and obviously, here I'm talking about Nietzsche and deconest, construction in a positive sense. But I think there's something to that, this courage to be willing to question yourself and say, why do I believe this? And then I'm even going to go so far as to say, I think that a healthy faith will always be deconstructing some things.

Okay. I don't like the word deconstruction because that word implies a movement from order to disorder. And I don't like that. you know, maybe we could incorporate a greater range of vocabulary to describe what we're talking about here. Like I like the verb disentangle. And then we have kind of classical theological words like mortify, which means put to death. You know, but a healthy faith will always be willing to look at itself, look at its own ministry culture, look at its own beliefs, look at its fruit and kind of try to disentangle.

What's the good here and what's the bad? What are the good plants that are growing and what are the weeds that are growing? And so I think looking at stories like what happened at Marse Hill Church and genuinely asking the question with an open heart and with humility to consider and chase the truth and consider the answer, what needs to be deconstructed? What are the unhealthy things here is really important? And I think if we're going to help people who are deconstructing, we need to have some level of humility to really hear them and really listen without assuming they're of bad faith. that brings me to my second comment, which is about reconstruction. This is kind of like where we go from here looking forward. And one of the concerns that I have about how people might react to the Mars Hill podcast,

and this is not a criticism of the podcast itself, it's a concern about how someone might respond to it in a way that isn't warranted. And that is kind of adopting a deconstructionist mentality wholesale, about the church in general, about Christianity, about certain qualities of the church. And it is easy to, you know, so this would be the corresponding concern, where if we need to humbly consider what needs to be deconstructed, if we need to genuinely be open, you know, it is possible.

You know, I said a moment ago that not all deconstruction is bad, but some is. You know, some people are of bad faith. Some people really do just want to tear things down. And short of that, I think there are ways, that some people could overreact. One of the worries I have is for people who will make loose associations, so that something about, you know, having really dissected the story of Mars Hill,

then this is associated in their mind with large churches, missional churches, reformed theology, complementarianism, multi-site churches, churches that have a more masculine feel. You know, there's lots of ways people could draw loose associations. and as much as we wouldn't articulate that, that happens all the time. People tend to connect dots like this. And it's, you know, actually, one of the things that's been interesting for me to observe is that large churches are often healthier than small churches.

And, you know, it would be disastrous if people are not sensitive to this danger. And so then we're reacting against one particular bad, because the truth is, the issues of abuse can occur in any kind of of church, and they do. It's not like there's just, it's like, oh, it's the reform churches. Those are the churches that are really, and it's like, no. Even at the level of just like really well-known ministers who have fallen, we can notice that this isn't like limited to one part of the church. And another thing on complementarianism, too, you know, I have the feeling that some people will use this as a way to kind of associate, you know, this is where complementarianism leads to. And I just have a concern about that. If people are thinking that it's like, okay,

the options are either egalitarian or Mark Driscoll, you know, that really is not a legitimate way to think. Because the reality is there's just more options than those two. So if you look historically at the church for over 2,000 years, or if you look globally around the world today, Mark Driscoll and egalitarianism are not the only options. There's a whole slew of different options, and there's lots of expressions of only male elders or only male priests throughout church history and throughout the world, where it has nothing to do with like American evangelical culture and the word complementarian. So those are the kinds of things where I worry about an overreaction, and I worry about loose

associations. Again, not as warranted responses to the podcast, but as illegitimate responses. But the deepest concern I have, oh, another one is pastors. I don't want people to be suspicious of pastors. Again, it's very easy to see how this can happen. You misreated by one pastor and you start to worry about pastors in general. And that's a burden on me because the jobs of pastors are already so difficult. It is so hard. Now, I am thankful every day. I literally, I get choked up every member's meeting we have

because I'm like giving our financial overview and we're talking, kind of giving a state of the union update to our church. And every, like the last three of them, I get choked up because I'm so thankful for our church because our church has been so amazing and so sweet and loving and supportive and consistent. And I'm grateful to God every day for our church. But I am just aware that the office of,

pastoral leadership right now is extremely taxing. It's really hard. And I worry about a pendulum swing of people, seeing abuse in the church and then being distrustful of pastors in general. We all know what it's like to operate in an environment of suspicion where you're guilty until proven innocent. And I worry about pastors, you know, accountability is good. An environment of suspicion is not good. And very often, I want to say, pastors are the abused, not the abusers. Most pastors are not like Mark Driscoll. Most pastors are sincere, imperfect, but good-hearted people. And I don't really know too many pastors who've been added a while and don't have deep wounds from the job.

It's a hard job. And so these are the kinds of things I'm worrying about. You know, I'm worried. So this brings me to reconstruction. And the deepest worry I have is that not just for, from that one podcast, not just from, but this podcast now is a window into the broader world. There is so much abuse and dysfunction in the world in and out of the church. And one of my worries is when people want to, they deconstruct the faith altogether.

I don't want people to deconstruct their faith as a whole. I want people to deconstruct the things that are unhealthy about a particular practice or understanding of the faith. So I want to put a word out onto the table and that's the word reconstruction. and I would love for there to be a whole movement of reconstruction while there's a movement of deconstruction going on. The idea here is that when you're deconstructing and you're going through that process,

and that's a dark place, a confusing place, you're asking questions, to have a reverse kind of counterbalancing process also going on at the same time that acts as kind of a counter pressure against that of reconstruction. So around the edges, you're working through things, you're asking questions, you're out here in the fringes at the level of kind of like church culture and other theological questions, but at the core of the gospel message itself, you're drilling down into more clarity, more light, more solidity. And so for me, you know, I wrote a whole book on the existence of God because I think that, so the existence of God, so the existence of God, the resurrection of Christ. Those are two great foundation points from which to reconstruct. When you're

asking questions about broader things, start there. And this is what I want my YouTube channel to be about, as well as my book. I want to be a voice that is helping people reconstruct. I just have the feeling there's a ton of people out there right now asking the deep questions. There's so much that's falling apart. The moment right now is one of disintegration. You know, there's another word, disintegration. I want my YouTube channel to be like Velcro. That is to say, something people can cling to that sticks. And when everything else feels slippery, and you're asking the deep questions, you're not sure what you believe. That's why I do so many videos on things like the existence of God. And so the idea here is, you know, you're working through Christian culture and you're working through theology and you're asking questions and you're trying to do that disentangling of the healthy and the unhealthy. but you've got some, at the same time, some more basic truths like the existence of God, the resurrection of Christ that you're building from, and that are a counterbalance to that deconstruction.

And that help you. It's like, okay, well, I know that, so I'm working through the other things I don't know in light of that. And that just seems to me to be where we've got to put the focus. Whenever we're considering deconstruction, whenever we're looking at the ugliness of the church, whenever we're doing the open acknowledgement, of sin or abuse or mistreatment, we can't just expose the problems. We've got to try to heal the problems. If all we do is expose the problems and say, wow, look at this terrible thing happening, then that can lead to cynicism, that can lead to despair. I actually think despair is really common right now. We've got to try to fix the problems which takes humility and hard work

so that, you know, otherwise it's like pulling out a weed and the weed, another weed just grows back. So what that means is, and I don't really have all the answers. for how to solve all these things. What I'm reflecting upon is I want to be a part of the solution. I want to be part of reconstruction. I want to be a part of people ultimately deconstructing certain things, but landing on greater confidence and health in their faith. And let me address this.

So let me address this question to conclude. What if someone is asking, well, why should I reconstruct? Why not just deconstruct everything? And I would say two things. answer that. Number one is you should look down the road at what that leads to. There is no answers in that. If you just abandon your faith altogether, look down the road at what that leads to. Think through the philosophical implications for what that means for hope, for what that means for justice, for what that means for human rights, for what that means for your mental health, for what that

means for the nature of good and evil, for what that means for your pursuit of truth and your trust in your own ability to arrive upon truth, you trust in your own ability of your own brain to reason, you know, like think through what that leads to. There's no answers that. That doesn't help anything. That doesn't fix anything. That'd be one thing I'd say. The second thing I'd say is go more deeply into your faith. Consider Jesus to make here the Baptist preacher your you know, and end it with an altar call of sorts. I mean, here's the thought. I'll probably get emotional when I say this.

For those who've been hurt by the church, you have to remember this. The God we worship was himself in the person of Christ, abused, slandered, mistreated at every level in every way by everybody. That whole sequence of events from the Garden of Gassimony and the anxiety there to the abandonment, the crucifixion, what he's suffering for our sins, and then in all of that, amidst the enduring and exhausting the wrath of God, he's mocked, he's squint, I mean, you know, any negative experience you have in this world, it's like, it pales in comparison to that, and that would, you could think of this as like the climactic suffering, like the archetypal

suffering. And if we have a God like that, you know, know, whatever the church has done to you, you can trust a God like that. You can trust a God who put himself into that position. He's not going to hurt you. And so that's a reason not to deconstruct everything. That's a reason to have that counterbalance of saying, no, I'm going to start with the things I know are good. I'm going to start with the things I know are healthy. And that's Christ and his love. And then from there, we're counterbalancing and we're reconstructing things. So I know that the thoughts that I have shared here are not totally finalized in every detail. You can tell I'm sort of, these are generic, broad thoughts.

But I offer them out there because I just think a lot of people are asking deep questions and even some basic thoughts can be maybe useful to reflect upon for some. The last comment is, Diane Lamberg has been a tremendous resource to my wife and me in thinking about issues of abuse and creating a healthy culture. So I'm going to put a link to some of her resources in the video description. If you're interested in kind of learning more about how do we create healthy cultures, how do we understand what abuse is, and how do we respond to it? I would commend her work to you.

I think it's extremely helpful. Okay, let me know what you think in the comments. I'm really curious about what your thoughts are on both the podcast and also just the broader issue of deconstruction that's happening right now. And hopefully, reconstruction that will only, also be happening right now. And that's what I pray for. I pray for revival. I pray for a renewal of the church. I pray for a new wave of the Holy Spirit that draws many people to Christ and the beauty of Christ. So that's that's my hope and that's what keeps me going. All right, God bless you. Thanks for

watching.