Truth Unites - Tongues, Healing, Prophecy: For Today?

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

In this video I do theological triage on continuationism and cessationism, the question of whether miraculous spiritual gifts like speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing ceased in the past or are for the church today.    See Sam Storms' Ministry: https://www.samstorms.org/ See my articles on apostles and cessationism: https://gavinortlund.com/2010/05/23/apostles-and-cessationism/ Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus. Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai. SUPPORT: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/truthunites One time donation: https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/truthunites FOLLOW: Twitter: https://twitter.com/gavinortlund Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TruthUnitesPage/ Website: https://gavinortlund.com/

I'm doing a series of videos on theological triage. I did one introductory video just explaining the idea of ranking different doctrines. That's what triage means. And then I've addressed Calvinism, baptism, and the end times. Not covering everything about these topics, but just trying to further understanding and peace within the body of Christ. That's the heart behind these videos. Where we have differences, how can we negotiate those differences such that it has minimal

fallout for the kingdom of God? How do we get along as much as we can amidst our differences? This video is going to be about spiritual gifts. We're going to specifically focus on the debate between cessationism and continuationism. So I'll define these terms real quickly. Cessationism is the view that some spiritual gifts, usually it's the more spectacular or so-called miraculous spiritual gifts, things like speaking in tongues, prophecy, healings, sometimes discerning of spirits or word of wisdom, word of knowledge, etc.

ceased or passed away sometime in the past, usually at the death of the last apostle or the closure of the canon, something like that. Continuationism is the view that all the spiritual gifts listed in the New Testament continue throughout the church age, and therefore, therefore, Christians today. So this is going to be, this is a fascinating topic. I hope this video will be helpful. I have five sections. It will be a more personal video. First of all, I'm going to share my testimony on this topic. how I got into this, what my story is. Second of all, I want to give an overview of why I am a continuationist. The main point is not to convince people of that,

but it might be helpful just to share where I'm coming from, Theologically. Third of all, I'm going to give an example from church history of what spiritual gifts can look like. I think that might be helpful to put some flesh on this topic. Fourth, I'll give a brief explanation as to why I don't think this issue is a first-ranked doctrine, but ideally can be a third rank. And I'll explain a little bit more what that means.

And then lastly, I want to give some practical advice for how continuationists and cessationists can get along. Let's say you're a continuationist pastor, but you're at a functionally cessationist church. What do you do? So some practical advice like that. So first, let me just share my story. I kind of went back on forth on sharing this, but in the end I thought it might be helpful. when I was in going into ninth grade in 1998 so now you can date me here I'll just so you don't have to do the math I'm turning 40 next summer when I was in eighth grade we lived in Chicago in the suburbs my dad was a seminary

professor at an evangelical seminary there and then he became a pastor in georgia in augusta georgia at a large Presbyterian church so major culture shock you know into the deep south and this church was affiliated with a Christian high school. So I'd been going to public schools all my life, started going to this private Christian high school. And there was a Bible teacher there. And I had him my senior year of high school just before going off to college. I got to be good friends with him. And he was charismatic. And he was a wonderful Christian, just the most, one of the most godly people I've known. I really admired him. We got pretty close. We got to be good friends. And I just mentioned I was kind of struggling with the book of Proverbs, just something about Proverbs. Just something about

I was a book that is hard to understand. And he gave me some tapes. If you remember, cassette tapes. Back in the day, I remember driving, I would listen to these in my Volvo. I had like a, it was like from the 80s. This old Volvo was the kind of car where every time you drive it, you're hoping it doesn't die on you. And I think it died the last day of school that year. So it lasted, it was kind of perfect, lasted the, just the right amount of time. But, so I'd listen to these cassettes in my car and they were from Jack Deere. who, if you know of him, he's big in these conversations. He wrote famous books, like surprised by the power of the spirit. So I'm listening to these cassettes, and he's not even talking about spiritual gifts,

but at one point he references the prophets at his church. And I just remember being very jarring in my ears, you know, thinking prophets at his church, what is that about? And so I start thinking about that. I start talking with my Bible teacher about that. It doesn't take a whole lot before you start getting into these questions. basic questions. You know, in Acts 21-9, Philip has four daughters who are prophetesses. So, you know, it doesn't take a lot of imagination, theology, to start to wonder, well, do people,

are there prophetesses or prophets today? Or did that cease? And that's the whole question here. So over the next year and a half, this became my project. I was not a good student when I was younger. Studies was not my thing. Until later in life, I became more interested in learning. but at this time I was not a good student, but this became really interesting to me, so I began to study this, and I would just read everything. I could get my hands on. I remember reading some of the Pentecostal scholars, which was fascinating, reading books like D.A. Carson's Showing the Spirit, which is a book, an exposition of 1st Corinthians, 12 to 14, books like that, lots of books in this area. And it was kind of fascinating, just to get involved into a theological issue like this.

So I'm studying this. It's kind of my first study project ever. At the same time, I'm going through this experience spiritually where I'm having this longing for more of an experience of intimacy with the Holy Spirit. And I don't know how those two things are fueling one another. The theological changes did come into place before any experiential changes, but they were both kind of playing off of each other, I think. But I just began to, I remember praying during the season. And I was going through a lot of different things, but I just remember this angst and this longing to, I remember praying, Lord, I want to know you on a whole new level, you know, this, this desire for intimacy with God that I really had not experienced yet like that. And just, I don't know, it's

interesting the way spiritual gifts can kind of open up broader questions about how we relate to the Holy Spirit. Maybe I'll come back to that. But long story short, I'm a freshman in college at this point. I'm connected with a vineyard church there in Athens, Georgia, and I'm going to a Thursday night Bible study with some guys and I just kind of shared. I'd been praying for more experience of the Holy Spirit and I'd been taking some first steps in that. I remember times where I'd be praying in tongues, but then I would question it and assume that it was not a, not the real thing because I had this misconception in my mind that when you speak in tongues, you completely lose control. And I wasn't experiencing that. So I was questioning when I was going through. I even

remember times where I would wake up at night speaking in tongues, which is kind of crazy. But those kinds of things were happening, but I was kind of hesitant about it. I didn't really understand it to be the real thing. And I was questioning it. And then one night at the Thursday night group, I remember just sharing, you know, my process theologically and then saying, I just thirst to experience these things if they're real. and those awesome guys, you know, listened and so forth, and they prayed for me and laid hands on me. And it's kind of vulnerable to talk about these things because they're so, and there are people who will call you a false teacher and question you if you share about your experiences in this area.

But as I thought about it, I thought, you know, I just think it's actually more helpful to be completely honest in the way we approach these things and talk about them. But I had an experience, I guess, I didn't think of it like this at the time. But I guess you'd call it kind of being slain in the spirit. I just, I experienced something, just this powerful sense of an infusion of joy. And I can't explain it. I don't think it was just my mind doing things. I think it was a legitimate spiritual experience. And I just remember, you know, there were physical manifestations in my body where I couldn't stand up

because there was such a powerful sense of being soaked in the Holy Spirit. And, you know, I'm a total, excuse me, I'm a total beginner in these areas. I never, whenever you talk about these things, you don't want people to think about it in this way of like, wow, this is a great thing. I, one of the things I love about John Wimber, another one of those books I read was, so John Wimber was the leader of the Vineyard Network, one of the streams within what we call like the third wave of the charismatic movement of the 20th. century, his wife wrote a biography of him called The Way It Was. Fascinating book. One of the things I loved about Wimber is his authenticity. You know, I think one of the great dangers for charismatic types is this triumphalism and this sense of needing to produce results. You know, if somebody's up there and they're praying for something to happen, there can be an embarrassment if something doesn't happen, you know.

and I loved Wimber's emphasis upon just complete honesty, be willing to look foolish, be willing to be embarrassed, complete ruthless honesty about these things. And so that's the approach I try to take of just kind of saying like, well, this is what I've experienced, but I'm total beginner about all this. I don't have, I'm speaking as just a fellow sojourner and a seeker of the truth, seeker of the Holy Spirit on these things. But since that, so that night when those brothers laid hands on me. That was kind of a breakthrough for me. And since that time, this has been a part of my life, I would say beyond just spiritual gifts, it's been a window into just a larger set of dynamics in Christian experience and spirituality. I don't have, again, I'm not, I've,

never experienced anything super dramatic. I've never seen miracles, for example. But there has been just a change, you know, I think of times where I, as you become more open to God speaking, to the Holy Spirit speaking, we'll talk about prophecy. There's been times where through a movie, through a song, or through a passage of scripture, or through a book, God has spoken something into my life, and it's been so meaningful to me and so powerful to me. I can't even imagine what my life would be like without having that. Another dynamic I've become more aware of since I went through this whole process and have been trying to grow in and study is spiritual warfare. The spiritual gifts question often is a window into these broader things. And again, I feel

as a beginner and novice in this area, but I've experienced this a lot where when you pray in the name of Jesus Christ against spiritual darkness, it has an effect. And I am not embarrassed about having a kind of simple mind about this that, you know, I think a great argument for the existence of God is answered prayers. I really, I think if that's the only argument you had, that would tricky because then you need to know that, well, how do I know it's this God versus that God or something like that? But as one corroborative testimony, I think that's a totally legitimate means of the knowledge of God. And this is something I experience pretty regularly where, you know, I used to struggle a lot with accusing thoughts. Satan is the accuser of the brethren. That's what

Ha Satan, the accuser, means in Revelation 1210, he's continually accusing. I think this is one of his deepest activities against the church, the accusations of Satan. And praying against those, that in Jesus' name, makes this huge difference, even against sickness and depression and other things like that. All I can say is in ministry, there's times where you recognize their spiritual dynamics to whatever is happening, even sleep. Recently we were, you know, I'd have this terrible thing of when you have five kids, as I have five kids right now, just getting everybody to sleep through the night feels like

that is the miracle. That is the thing you pray for, you know, like proof that the age of miracles is not over when everybody gets a good night's sleep. But we would have this experience where so many nightmares, everybody's having nightmares and it's disruptive and it's weird. And then I would have this experience where the last thing that would go through my mind as I'm drifting off to sleep, every night would be this terrible thing, something evil happening to one of my kids. And I'm like, what is this? Why is this? I would just come out of nowhere. So again, same thing. You pray in Jesus' name against this, and it prayer makes the difference.

So you have enough of those experiences, and you say, this is real. There's something to this. And I don't know, I guess that's an example of where I think the heartbeat behind continuationism isn't just about like this specific gift. It's this broader orientation to pneumatology, the doctrine of the person and work of the Holy See. spirit. Where there's just so much that's in the Bible that sometimes can be a little bit further from view in our own experience today. In the realm of the demonic would be one example of that. There's demons in the Bible. They're all over the Gospels. The kingdom of God is pushing forward and there's the powers of darkness resisting. Well, those demons didn't cease to exist in the first century. They're still present today and being mindful of that is helpful.

The main thing that I want to emphasize on this whole area is just that, and this will, I'll come back to really hit this hard when we talk about triaging it is the main difference is being more mindful of the Holy Spirit, seeking greater intimacy with the Holy Spirit, which is something I just can, I feel I want to keep growing in that. It's an experience of incredible peace and joy. I'm grieved because many people are afraid of the Holy Spirit. When young children are growing up in church and they hear him called the Holy Ghost, that probably doesn't help us.

They're thinking of the Holy Ghost, what is this? But even adults are often freaked out by, and now for understandable reasons at times based upon what they're seeing and what's being expressed. And I just want to encourage people that we don't need to be afraid of the Holy Spirit. He is personal. He is just as personal as the Father and the Son. He is kind and good. And he does not lead us to weirdness.

He leads us to peace and flourishing. And he fulfills the deepest longings within. There's nothing greater than being filled with the Holy Spirit. So even where Christians will disagree on the particulars like spiritual gifts, hopefully thinking about these things will encourage a greater openness. Sometimes some Christians are so restrictive and concerned about abuses that we're not actually open to the Holy Spirit at all. And we need to be open to the Holy Spirit, surprising us, correcting us, working in our lives in ways that make us uncomfortable, you know,

and there's a sense of adventure in relating to the Holy Spirit. So that's a little bit, so those have been some of the changes, you know, just more mindfulness about the reality of spiritual warfare, about the experience of the peace that the Holy Spirit can give. Sometimes when I'm about to get up and preach, I just feel this deep pressure and anxiety over me, knowing the significance of that action, And then just the only thing that helps is just through prayer, the experience of peace that I can't explain.

You know, just a peace that seems to come from outside of myself and doesn't always even happen. And sometimes it just happens somewhat randomly. I just feel the Holy Spirit kind of bring peace. And that's, if nothing else you hear in this video, that's an encouragement for us as we think about this topic is, the Holy Spirit is the one who calms the storm. He is the God of order. and peace and shalom and flourishing. And that just keep that in our minds as we keep going forward.

All right. So that's a little bit of my just very modest and as a beginner, as a learner, a little bit of my background experience on these things. Most of the churches I've had the privilege of serving are more functionally on the cessationist side of things. So that's where, again, maybe I can speak to those things at the end. But now let me explain a little bit of the theology I got to because the theological conviction of continuationism was actually firmly in place before I started

having any experiences. And I really think there's a good case for that. And I don't think there's a good case for cessationism. Let me just explain real quick. I've written about this more elsewhere, so I won't be thorough here, just canvassing it. I remember when I was going through my study, senior year of high school, freshman year of college, I was reading these books. And there's these different arguments. They're all tend to be from the reform tradition for the most part. You know, people say one of the arguments that you see in B.B. Warfield's book, Counterfeit Miracles, is that miracles served to authenticate the apostles. So after the apostolic ministry, they are no longer needed.

Similarly, John MacArthur in his book Charismatic Chaos talks a lot about how miracles tend to go only in certain times of redemptive history. He isolates three or maybe four periods, epics of Church of Redemptive History where you have more clusters of miracles. Richard Gaffin is, I think, one of the better representatives of cessationism today. He's got better arguments than others, I would say. And he argues from Ephesians 220, which talks about the foundation of the apostles and prophets. He's saying, this is like this foundational time in church history, and these activities don't

go beyond that time. and then one of the big arguments is just from the closure of the canon and the sufficiency of scripture. So this argument would apply especially to the revelatory spiritual gifts, speaking in tongues, prophecy, potentially word of wisdom, word of knowledge. And they would say, look, those were limited to the time prior to the closure of the canon. God ceased giving revelation like that after that point, and we don't need that anymore. because God's word is sufficient. So I was working through various arguments like that,

and as I worked through them, I just found it exegetically from the New Testament. I don't think those arguments carry the day. I wasn't convinced, for example, that the purpose of miracles is specifically to authenticate the Apostles' ministry. It seems like miracles are for many reasons. And if there's any purpose for spiritual gifts that seems to be especially emphasized within the New Testament, it's edification. Spiritual gifts over and over are said to be for the edification of the body of Christ.

And if there's any sense of duration for that, it always seems to be with reference to the second coming of Christ when the church has fully matured and fully been made holy and so forth. First Corinthians 1310, when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. People have used this to try to argue for cessationism saying the perfect. there, something in the past, but I just was not convinced of that at all. I think the best way to take the perfect there is this kind of final consummate knowledge of Christ. And the key text, as well for me was Ephesians 4, which I'll put up. Paul says the purpose of these spiritual gifts he's just mentioned is to equip the saints for the work of ministry for building up the body

of Christ. So that's the purpose. Now here's the duration until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. With regard to the concern about the sufficiency of Scripture, the closure of the canon, it just seems like there's different kinds of revelation within the Bible. And even in the Old Testament, you have passages like Numbers 11 or 1 Samuel 10, where there seems to be a more spontaneous kind of prophesying that is widespread, it doesn't seem like it's canonical revelation that's imparting some new information about the nature of God or something like that. It seems like it's more of a kind of a charismatic experience. In Numbers 11, you've got this example

of the spirit falling down on the 70 elders, and they prophesy, and this is where Moses famously says, I wish that all God's people, don't be jealous for me. I wish all God's people have the spirit. In 1st Samuel 10, there's this dynamic experience between David and Saul. again, the Spirit comes down and there's this more spontaneous act of prophesying, and this seems to be like what you get in Acts chapter 2. The speaking in tongues there is interpreted by Peter as the fulfillment of Joel 2 and the promise of the Holy Spirit being democratized among God's people, the fulfillment of Moses's desire, the old and the young, the men and the women, even the servants, everybody gets the Holy Spirit. And this kind of prophesying doesn't seem to

be at the same level as Holy Scripture such that it would be like adding onto the canon or denying the sufficiency of the Bible or something like that. Consider like examples, like dreams, visions, things like this. If today I use this as a sermon illustration once, if God sends a dream to a missionary in China to warn them of a military action that's about to happen in that region so that they'll leave and be protected and safe, and they heed the dream and leave and they're protected, that doesn't seem like that's a threat to the Bible or on the same level as the Bible. It seems like a lower level of revelation. And that kind of thing happens.

God does that. God does send dreams and visions and so forth. So basically, as I, you know, much more to say, but suffice to say, because this isn't the main part of the video. The main focus would be on triaging these things. But just to explain, you know, as I read through the New Testament, I just wasn't convinced exegetically that there's any case for cessationism. or even any case for a distinction between so-called miraculous gifts and other gifts. It just seems like there's the gifts, you know. Beneath those specific arguments and counter-arguments, as I was studying,

three kind of more basic principles of pneumatology or the doctrine of the Holy Spirit were being formed in my heart that I want to share that might be helpful for us to orient us as we talk about this topic. The first is that spiritual gifts seem to function as testimonies of the, in-breaking kingdom of God. They seem to be distinctive of the new covenant age that we live in, starting at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit is poured out and moving forward. Where you have, as we mentioned, the Holy Spirit poured out on all God's people. And I wrote an article once on what's new about Pentecost and exploring continuity, discontinuity. That's a really fascinating thing to think through. The Holy Spirit is not totally new

at Pentecost. Of course, the Holy Spirit is active throughout the Old Testament. David prays, take not your Holy Spirit from me. In the prayers, Psalm 51, in the prayers of the book of Nehemiah, Nehemiah is talking about how God's spirit did this, God's spirit did that. So God's spirit was active, and yet in John 7, John says the spirit was not yet given. And so you're saying, well, okay, so there's a sense in which the Holy Spirit's always been at work, but there's something new. There's a sense in which the Holy Spirit comes in with more copious and more universal power.

and a kind of dynamic pouring out. For example, the verb, you don't see the verb pouring out of the spirit as much prior to Pentecost. There's this infusion of the Holy Spirit among the people of God, starting at that time. And it doesn't seem like, it seems like that is the crucial change in redemptive history, not sometimes subsequent to that. So here's how Sinclair Ferguson puts it, and I love Sinclair Ferguson because he's such a brilliant theologian, that even when it's not his view, he's just summarizing the argument for this view, he still puts it so eloquently.

Sinclair Ferguson, this is a great book too. I don't have the page number. I'm very sorry, but it's from his book on the Holy Spirit in the Contours of Christian Theology series, and it's a fantastic book. I just learned so much from it. He says the cessationist view would imply that there are two distinct or at least distinguishable dispensations in the new age, which Jesus inaugurates. through his death, resurrection, and gift of the spirit, namely the apostolic age and the post-apostolic age,

but the New Testament knows only one age, namely the age inaugurated by the ascotological spirit. A second principle of pneumatology that kind of was formed in my heart as I'm studying is just that spiritual gifts look like they're operative in local churches. And this really pushes against a lot of these cessationist arguments about authenticating the apostles' ministry and so forth. take a look, for example, at 1 Corinthians 14, starting at verse 29, and just imagine what Paul is describing here. He says, let two or three prophets speak and let the others weigh what is said. If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one so that all may learn and all may be encouraged,

and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets, for God is not a God of confusion but of peace. There is so much we could unpack in that amazing passage. One is Paul's emphasis upon the orderliness and peacefulness of how charismatic gifts should be deployed in the church. And I'm just amazed at how much so often we just charismatic contexts need to remember that. But the other thing that's interesting there is this, again, the sense of democratizing of the spirit you may all prophesy, just like Acts 217. But the other thing is, I mean, this is just a local church.

There's no apostles here. This just seems to be kind of the ongoing dynamics of local church edification. And one way I could summarize it is I didn't really see any reason not to obey 1 Corinthians 141 in the way I'd obey any other New Testament injunction. And that's a verse that says, eagerly desire that you may prophesy. The third principle that came into my heart as I was studying these things is I didn't see the logic or the instincts of secessionism in the biblical text. Instead, I saw the desire for the more miraculous and spectacular.

work of God. Now, I know this can be overplayed. We need to be so careful here. It's totally possible to go in the other direction and emphasize the more spectacular things at the expense of the more slow, internal, less dynamic work of the Holy Spirit. Absolutely. But at the end of the day, nonetheless, you have many passages where the writer of Scripture is praying for and longing for the miraculous, the spectacular, and even the things God used to do. You know, Acts 4 is an example where the apostles are praying for miracles, but my favorite example is Habakkuk 3-2. Habakkuk is one of my favorite books of the Bible.

I've preached through it a couple of times. And my favorite verse for revival, there's another issue where talking about spiritual gifts cracks open this question of what is revival. Should we pray for revival? I'm a big proponent that revival is also not something we should be afraid of. When that term is misused, we need to retrieve and redeem that term. That's a good word. And revival is simply, think of it as just the acceleration of the normal activity of the Holy Spirit through the gospel.

So, you know, think of it. You're going 40 miles an hour, and then you hit the accelerator, and now you're going 70. That's revival. It's not some sidebar or separate thing. It's the gospel surging forward with fresh and greater power. Well, Habakkuk 3-2 is a great verse. I've preached on this a couple of times talking about revival. Essentially, the prophet is looking back at what God has done.

The rest of Habakkuk 3 is this sort of montage of God's saving deeds for Israel through Joshua after the Exodus. And he's looking back on all this and he's saying, Lord, do it again. He says, oh Lord, I have heard the report of you in your work, oh Lord, do I fear. In the midst of the years, revive it. In the midst of the years, make it known. In wrath, remember mercy. That phrase, in the midst of the years, do you see the longing, the desire there? He's saying, Lord, I've heard of what you did.

Do it again today. In the midst of the years. Do it now. Do it in our day. That feels like faith to me, right? And that's, to me, one of the most wonderful ways to encourage people to pray for revival is tell stories of what God has done in the past. And so we had a revival conference a while back, and we've done a couple other events

like this is a church where we're simply learning about, studying about what did God do in the Second Great Awakening? What did God do in Wales in 2004, 1905, 1906? It's almost hard to believe it. It was so amazing. Another example of this biblical desire is Psalm 74-9, where the author sees the lack of prophets and the lack of miracles, not as just something that, well, we have to be. to live with it, but he's saying, no, this is a sign of God's disfavor. How long will it be?

In other words, he wants to see it again. And I'll just say one more point about this. If you want a more thorough treatment about, I don't want to get too into this argument because the main point in this video is what we'll do now to get into the triaging of this. If you want further more thorough, I realize, and I hope I haven't been unfair to any cessationist arguments, if you want more thorough treatment, let me encourage. you to check out the ministry of Sam Storms, online, his website, enjoying godministries.org, and his books. For example, the Zondervin Counterpoint's book, Our Miraculous Gifts for Today, four views. He's the contributor for the third wave charismatic side. I think he just has a really

helpful and clear articulation of a continuationist theology. The one thing I'll mention is there is this specific question of apostleship as a spiritual gift, and that's one area that I haven't seen as much out there in the broader literature, and so I wrote a blog post on that a couple years ago. If that's of interest to you, you could check it out. Basically, I'm arguing that the term apostolos there, when it's used in 1st Corinthians, 12, 28, 29, and Ephesians 411 as a spiritual gift, we shouldn't translate it in the technical sense of the eyewitness of Christ who is recognized by the church with authority and it's an office

in the church, but rather in the literal sense of that term. I remember when I took a college college, class, Greek class translating through Herodotus, the 5th century BC Greek writer, and he would use this term all the time. It's just a normal word that means envoy, herald, ambassador, messenger, et cetera. It's used all the time in the New Testament for that, not for technical apostles, but for, you know, Philippians 225, Apaphroditis is called an apostolos of the Philippian church, and that's typically translated messenger. 2 Corinthians 823. Paul's coworkers are traveling with Titus and they're called apostoloi, the plural.

Typically, that's translated messengers or representatives. Lots of other examples like that. And I'm basically just saying in this article, look at what a spiritual gift is. Look at how they're given, how the Holy Spirit works them, what is the nature of a gift, what's the context of a spiritual gift? And apostolos in the literal meaning, messenger or ambassador, seems like a much better fit for that then the technical meaning of this office in the church so that we would say that, yeah, there are apostles in the church today, but not in the technical sense of like the 13, you know, the 12 minus Judas plus Matthias plus Paul,

maybe a few others as well, but just in the sense of a her, as it's being used in Philippians 225 and elsewhere. So I'll put that in the video description if you want to check out that article. Okay, third section of the video. I'm going to keep it moving here. This will be briefer. Let me give an example. So I think part of what makes people hesitant or concerned about spiritual gifts is it's hard to envision if you haven't seen it and maybe if you've only seen kind of weird expressions of it. And you can say, what would this even look like?

And I find this example, which I got off of, I think Sam Storms was the first one who directed me to this, helpful because it's from someone who wasn't really explicitly continuationist in his theology and the way he articulated this and understood this. So this is from Charles Spurgeon's autobiography. And to me, it's just a great concrete example of 1st Corinthians 14 in action. He says, while preaching in the hall on one occasion, I deliberately pointed to a man in the midst of the crowd and said, there is a man sitting there who is a shoemaker. He keeps his shop open on Sundays. It was open last Sabbath morning. He took nine pence, and there was four prints profit out of it.

His soul is sold to Satan for four pence. sense. If you could just imagine this happening. So then he goes on and this person is then telling their testimony of how this led them to Christ. Because, you know, he's saying, it's kind of funny to think about he's saying, I was afraid to come to church again for fear of what else is he going to say, you know? But basically he realizes like that's true and how could he possibly have known that? And then he says, then it struck me that it was God who had spoken to my soul through him. So I shut my shop the next Sunday. At first I was afraid to go again to hear him lest he should tell the people more about me, which I could totally understand that. But afterwards I went and the Lord met with me and saved my soul.

Well, to me, so here's what Spurgeon says. He says, I could tell as many as a dozen similar cases in which I pointed at someone in the hall without having the slightest knowledge of the person or any idea that what I said was right, except that I believed I was moved by the spirit to say it. And so striking has been my description that the persons have gone away and said to their friends, come see a man that told me all things that I ever did. Beyond a doubt, he must have been sent of God to my soul, or else he could not have described me so exactly. Now, I trust Charles Spurgeon. Charles Spurgeon, to me, is a trustworthy, godly Christian that God has used mightily for his purposes.

I don't think Spurgeon is a liar. I don't think he's making that up. And that, to me, sounds exactly like 1st Corinthians, 14, 12, 23 to 25, where Paul says, if people come in and you're speaking in tongues, they'll think you're crazy. But if you're prophesying, it says, the secrets of his heart are disclosed. And he'll say, God is here. Well, that's exactly what this man said. And that's, so that's kind of maybe just something that could help us have in our minds. Like, what might this look like? And that's helpful because it's from not someone who's in an explicitly charismatic context. Spurgeon was a

Baptist preacher. Okay. Now, let's do the triage. Let's talk about where do we rank this? How do we negotiate our differences on this where this doesn't become, because I've seen this issue become explosive and it can really tear us apart. One of the things that you see is that a lot of times people will say, okay, yeah, you know, we can be Christians amidst our differences on this, but there's a mentality like among the

charismatic's looking at the cessationists saying, but they're not very, they're not really all that spiritual. or there's a mentality among the cessationists saying, yeah, those charismatic can be Christians, but they're kind of fanatics, you know, they're not really sound, they're not really trustworthy. And even if we wouldn't say that there's this, there's a suspicion, there's an emotional wall between the two camps. And what makes this so tricky is that you can understand a little bit why that can happen. If you're looking at the extremes of each side, here's the thing. there is such a thing as quenching the spirit.

In fact, in 1st Thessalonians 5, when Paul says, don't quench the spirit in context, it looks like he's talking about despising prophecies. So that is a real danger. That can happen. On the other side, there are theologically irresponsible charismatics. We all see that. That's one of the grievous things. Those people are sometimes the most visible, you know.

Most of you will never meet my wonderful high school Bible teacher, but you'll probably see people on TV doing weird things and so forth. There are people preaching a false gospel or just kind of acting in really weird ways that are more on the charismatic side. And so one of the important needs for us is to not judge each side by its extremes. And I feel that this is an important, it's simple once you say it, but once you realize how common that happens, you realize this is killing us in our culture. in the church, but also just throughout our culture where we look at a difference and we judge the other side by its worst or most extreme representations. So we've got to try to look. There's a lot of people who are more in, you know, they have more overlap.

And it's helpful to see that. So why is this not a first rank issue? In my book, I go through some longer lists of criteria and then I say in a pinch, if you're just want to make a quick judgment, just consider four things as a way to test a doctrine. Number one, how clear is it in Holy Scripture? Number two, what is the testimony of the church universal throughout time about this issue? Number three, what is the logical relation of this issue to the Christian gospel? And number four, what is the practical effect of this issue on the church's ministry and life? Now, as I go through those four, I don't see anything that is setting my alarm

bells off, that the difference here, cessationism, continuationism, is in the realm of like heresy versus orthodoxy. Especially with regard to number three there, it's very clear that people on both sides can have a clear affirmation of the Christian gospel, that Jesus Christ came into the world to be the atonement for our sins, and that as we respond to Christ in faith and repentance, we are made right in the sight of God, reconciled to God. people can believe in that gospel message irrespective of what they think about something like speaking in tongues. In fact, even just within the Reformed tradition, where I broadly locate myself, we find incredible diversity.

I would put it into three buckets as you look throughout the Reformed tradition. I'm not aware that cessationism is addressed in any of the major confessions, the Westminster Standards, the Heidelberg Catechism, Canons of Dort, anything like this, Belgic confession. But in terms of major reformed theologians, you've got kind of three. schools of thought, it seems. On the one hand, you've got cessationists like B.B. Warfield or like someone like Jonathan Edwards, but their arguments for cessationism are often very different. Edward's argument focuses more on the superiority of love over miracles, whereas Warfield, as we mentioned, talks about, among other things, the supposed confirmatory role of spiritual gifts for the apostles.

then you have in a second category within the reform tradition, you might call them mild cessationists or kind of inconsistent. That sounds like a negative word. I don't mean it negatively, but they're not strict cessationists. They're more, they leave wiggle room. So Calvin, for example, would be this. Calvin in the Institute says, these gifts are no longer for today, but talking about prophecy and apostleship.

He says, but God raises them up as the need of the time's demands. Another example of this perspective would be John Owen, one of the great Puritan theologians. He's warning about superstition and sensationalism. But then he says, and he's talking about spiritual gifts in this context, and he says, it is not unlikely, but that God might on some occasions for a longer season put forth his power in some miraculous operations. And so he met yet may do, and perhaps doth sometimes. The term miraculous operations there is with reference to spiritual gifts.

And then a third category in the reform tradition is you have continuationists, people like John Knox, leader of the Reformation in Scotland, Samuel Rutherford, the great Presbyterian pastor and theologian. I was named after Samuel Rutherford. I love Samuel Rutherford. The only thing I've ever read outside of the Bible for my morning devotions is Samuel Rutherford. It's like it's either the Bible or Samuel Rutherford's letters, because I've never read anything so edifying as his letters. it's amazing. But he was a continuationist, and he talks about Knox, for example, and others who have foretold things to come even since the ceasing of the canon of the word.

He gives examples of specific predictive prophecies they gave, and he distinguishes this from inscripturated revelation. So I think just the point is, even within a tradition where you have relatively similar theological framework, the reformed tradition, you find great diversity among godly Christians. So where does this issue fall? I would say ideally third rank. I think that you can definitely have situations. A third rank issue is one where you don't need to divide over it at all.

A first rank issue is something that demarcates heresy from orthodoxy. Second rank issues are ones that don't make you a Christian or a non-Christian, but they might separate you from others in terms of where you are a member at a local church. And basically what I argue in my book on this is that you have to take the larger, context into account. You can't make these blanket judgments. That's how it often is with triage. You have to be open to nuance, you know. For example, if you're dealing with second blessing theology where speaking in tongues is really emphasized as this subsequent experience after the new birth, or at least distinct from it, where speaking in tongues is the initial physical sign of baptism

and the Holy Spirit, that is going to play out differently than if you're like a third wave charismatic. That group tends to not believe in second blessing, So you have to look at things like that. You have to look at how much the gifts are emphasized. Because these two views, continuationism, cessationism, are mutually exclusive with respect to one church service. This can become a second rank issue. You know, you can't both have an allowance for speaking in tongues and not have an allowance for that, you know? But there are ways that we can try to live together. So that leads to my final section here. Practical advice. How do we get along? How do we, as much as possible, push this into the third rank?

Where we have differences. How can we not let it become more of an emotional barrier than it needs to be between tribes, leading to suspicion and pride and so forth, and fighting, and so forth? A couple thoughts, three in particular. The first is the need for humility. This is basic, but I feel like it always comes back to this when doing theological triage. spiritual gifts are not trophies. They are tools. They're not things to put up on the wall and brag about. They are tools by which we can humble ourselves like Jesus washing the disciples' feet in John 13, and we use our spiritual gifts to build up others, to bless them, to serve them. And it is so tragic that the very things that God has given as an expression of and impetus for unity,

often are the things that become stumbling blocks for division. I have thought about this so much. The other example of this would be the sacraments. The sacraments are supposed to be an expression of unity. Paul says there's one loaf, you know. And yet, look back through church history, how many times have the sacraments been a source of division? Luther and Zwingli at Marburg, 1529.

Big one right there. Jonathan Edwards being dismissed from his church. What's the presenting occasion? It's administrative issues about the Lord's Supplement. And there's been so many examples of this, not just with the sacraments, but with spiritual gifts, where these gifts God gives are intended to draw us together around Jesus Christ, and often they end up, for some reason, being a source of division. And it's sobering to reflect on that.

It reminds us we need to have humility. We need to recognize we need those other people in the body of Christ who see this issue differently from us. Don't feel superior to them. Try to see the world through their eyes. Remember, we have an obligation to them. They are the sheep of Christ. We can't just write them off. And then really try to listen, really try to understand.

Remember, we're not better than anybody. And the whole posture we should have on an issue like this is we're trying to serve others and Christ. Secondly, I think tact is really needed. One of my great burdens, and I alluded to this at the beginning, is charismatic types can really freak people out. Now, sometimes someone might be put off or alarmed because they are not open to what the Holy Spirit is doing

and that may be an issue in their heart. But a lot of times we can get in the way too by not having tact and wisdom. Sometimes charismatic types are more bold in their personality and we don't have a good, we don't have tact, we don't have sensitivity to context. We're not thinking through, how can we be winsome,

how can we help someone understand, even just explaining what we're doing a lot, you know, repeatedly tying things back to scripture, showing why we're doing it the way we're doing it. Like as an example, a lot of times you can imagine like a joint church service with charismatic and non-charismatic and the charismatic people are there and like, you know, don't lead off with a prophecy or something like this without any explanation. You know, maybe build up to that or explain that. or just, you know, I'm not saying we should never express the gifts in contexts where people may disagree. I'm just saying tact, sensitivity, awareness, thinking through how is this going to come across?

It's not enough to be, to think that you're right. You have to think about, you know, Paul says, I'll never eat meat again if it causes my brother to stumble. We have an obligation to try to be helpful, try to draw people along, try to help them understand, you know. let's say God gives you a vision to pray for someone for their anxiety. God puts your meeting with someone, someone's walking by, the Holy Spirit flashes into your brain. You need to pray for them for their anxiety. Okay.

What do you then do? Well, if you run up to them and grab them by the shoulders and say, God wants to heal you from your anxiety, there's ways you could go about this that are going to increase their anxiety, you know? there's there's a place for subtlety and I think continuationist types just need it's good to think about this how can you approach someone in a way that's going to be um easier for them to understand and to step into an experience for example in that circumstance maybe you ask if you can pray for them

but you don't even tell them the full picture yet maybe it's not necessary to go into that you don't need to um come in so heavy right off the right out of the gate and that is uh that that that That's a ministry that I think is really important is offering to pray for people. This has been something that as a pastor, I've found such a refuge. Oftentimes as a pastor, you're overwhelmed by the pain and suffering in someone's life and you realize I'm not sufficient in myself to know what to say or how to meet this need. One of the most wonderful things we can do is just to offer prayer for them. And as we pray for them, it allows God to touch them and to meet that need. And I've been amazed at how frequently people want you to pray for them. Even non-Christians. I'll offer to pray for non-Christians.

and I just pray with them in light of where they're at and who they are and so forth. I may even pray for them. Lord, I pray that this person would come to know you. And so you pray for them in light, but a lot of people are really open to being prayed for. So something to think about. Last piece of advice is I think it is not compromise, but it is appropriate to allow for spiritual gifts to be expressed in differing contexts so that in one church, you don't necessarily need to have them in the local church service,

the main worship gathering, the Sunday morning with it where everybody's there. I've thought a lot about this. I've wrestled with this. I've considered the counter arguments. But at this point in my thinking, I'm just not convinced that given in our cultural context the purpose of the worship service and what that is doing, this is like the front level, entry level. For many people, it'll be their first contact with the church.

it seems to me that it's not compromised if you're a continuationist to say hey our primary area of emphasizing spiritual gifts is going to be in the small groups or in Sunday school or in this time of prayer after the service when people come for healing or whatever I don't think you have to do it in the service I I don't know it just seems to me like it's fitting to have allowance for different contexts and that creates some breathing room for the cessationists to be there and to not feel like we're pushing on their conscience too much. I think as we step forward in these areas and talk about the gifts, tying everything back to scripture is going to be key because there are

a lot of charismatics who kind of go way off from the word. But to whatever extent we can just bring everything back. And, you know, 1st Corinthians 14 is such a helpful chapter because it's so detailed and so vivid. And the last thing I'll say is as a piece of advice is to, acknowledge and be discerning about counterfeits and abuses. Jesus said many false prophets have gone out into the world. Being open to spiritual gifts doesn't mean you accept every expression of spiritual gifts. There are lots of counterfeits. And it helps when the charismatic types, the continuationists, are leading the charge in being

biblically discerning, right? my perspective is that the charismatic movement throughout the 20th century and all its iterations has represented a genuine work of the Holy Spirit. But there's lots of counterfeits. There's lots of abuses as well. And so we have to be biblically discerning. And I just think that's how it always is. Jonathan Edwards is, in my opinion, the greatest theologian of revival in church history.

He talks a lot about this. Whenever, he was so insightful about the nature of revival, he said, whenever the Holy Spirit is doing something good, Satan will come along with counterfeits to besmirch the reputation of the good. And so that's why it's so important to be biblically discerning. And those of us who are in the continuation aside need to be leading the chart. I think the cessationists will be reassured in hearing more from us in that way. So that's my, those are my thoughts. Very limited, not comprehensive.

But I truly hope this video will be helpful and will, if nothing else, spark conversation about this topic. Help us keep thinking about it. and maybe see where can we move towards each other? Where can we touch one another in unity and overlap of theological conviction? Let me put up our final verse to encourage us in the spirit in which we should talk about our differences about this topic. I love Paul's exhortation in Ephesians for what it looks like to walk in a manner worthy of our calling. It's verse two with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,

eager to maintain the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace. In the body of Christ, continuationist, cessationist, and everybody in between, we are one family. We are one church. We are one body. And it is wonderful when we are not just begrudgingly acknowledging that, but we are eager to maintain that unity. And even where we have different convictions, and that might lead us to different expressions and at times to certain practical kind of separations and so forth, we need to remember this overarching unity, that we have in Jesus Christ because he died for all of us. He died for the cessationists.

He died for the continuationist equally. He is equally the savior of us all. And that helps to remember that. Let me know what you think about this video. I'll really be curious for the comments. I've never done a video like this. I imagine I'll get all kinds of different perspectives on this. It'll be fun to hash it out in the comments.

So let me know what you think. And I hope this video will be helpful. God bless everybody.