Truth Unites - Why Young Men Are Becoming Eastern Orthodox

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

Gavin Ortlund explores why young men are converting to Eastern Orthodoxy. Trinity Evangelical Divinity School: https://www.tiu.edu/divinity/ The New York Post article: https://nypost.com/2024/12/03/us-news/young-men-are-converting-to-orthodox-christianity-in-droves/ Truth Unites video on evangelical worship: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeM5u4A6KTY Truth Unites exists to promote gospel assurance through theological depth. Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) is President of Truth Unites and Theologian-in-Residence at Immanuel Nashville. SUPPORT: Tax Deductible Support: https://truthunites.org/donate/ Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/truthunites FOLLOW: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/truth.unites/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/gavinortlund Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TruthUnitesPage/ Website: https://truthunites.org/

The New York Post ran an article recently entitled Young Men Leaving Traditional Churches for Masculine Orthodox Christianity in Drove's. It quotes a survey of Orthodox churches throughout the United States that notes a 78% increase in converts in 2022 compared with pre-pandemic levels in 2019. And the article also discusses a few other trends. One of them is it's mostly men, especially young men, who are being drawn into Eastern Orthodoxy. And also, the other thing is it's not slowing down. This is actually on the rise right now. I don't think this trend is going away. This is something we have to think about. Now, the goal of

this video is not to give criticism of Eastern Orthodoxy or a detailed analysis of their theology or something like that. I've done that in various other videos on certain issues like icon veneration, one big video a while back, a few more recently. I've talked a lot about their institutional exclusivism recently. A couple of videos on that. I've also done various debates and dialogues with Eastern Orthodox priests, and all that's important. But here I want to make a shorter, more pastoral video speaking to Protestants, especially evangelicals, who I think basically we need to pay attention to what's happening. I think we have a lot to learn here. So let's ask three questions. Number one, why is this happening? Number two, why does it matter? And number three, what should we do about it?

Before I dive in, I want to say a word about Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. I always want truth unites to support the local church. I hope my videos are not ever a replacement but studied an encouragement to engage in church, but also seminaries and Christian colleges, other Christian institutions of learning of various kinds. And so I'm so thankful that Trinity Evangelical Divinity School is sponsoring this video. A lot of the people who watch my channel are wanting to grow in theology, be more thoroughly equipped as a follower of Jesus. So they're always asking about book recommendations, how to read more. They're watching YouTube videos. Now, I believe in that, but honestly, I think more people should consider formal theological education.

This is one of the reasons I always want to encourage this. I think it's easier than you realize. Seminary is not just for pastors or for professors or something like that, and it's easier than ever. If you study at a place like Ted's, Ted's is a leading evangelical seminary, wonderful place. I studied there for a year. I did a post-doctoral fellowship there. I also grew up in that area, so I know Trinity pretty well. It's a wonderful place.

you get to be immersed in this vibrant community where you have not just a world-class faculty to teach you, but also an environment of other students, broadly evangelical. So you're committed, Ted's is committed to the authority of scripture, but you get diversity within that on issues like baptism and things like this. And formal education can go a long way. It's just amazing. And it's easier than ever to do. You can do it online. You can do eight-week modular classes. They have different start dates. You can also do it, of course, in person. So I just really want to recommend people who want to go to the next step theologically, that's a great step to take.

Formal education, I've never regretted formal education. It always pays off, it's always a good investment. So check out, I'll put a link to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School in the video description. All right, let's dive in and work through these three questions. First of all, why is this happening? Now, of course, every single conversion is different. But the article that I just referenced draws attention to three factors that are often at

play. And it was so fascinating reading this article because it was so similar to conversations I've had, even down to the very wording. It was saying things that I felt and articulated, I'm realizing, ah, it's not just me who's seeing this trend right now. Three factors it draws attention to for why this is happening. Number one is the search for stability. People are hungry for tradition and rootedness and groundedness. People want something that isn't changing, something that feels permanent like you're standing on a rock amidst the sea changes of the world, everything about the world feels chaotic right now. And so people are aching for a sense of stability. And Eastern Orthodoxy powerfully appeals to that need in the human heart.

Even if we reject the thesis of them as a changeless church, that's what I've argued against, nonetheless, they do have this powerful sense of connection to the past, and people notice this. One convert interviewed in the article said this, the hard thing about growing up in my church, that was an Anglican church, is that there was a lot of change even in my lifetime. Here's this. I realized that there really was no way to stop the change. Now that's quite a poignant sentiment right there. If we want to understand why a lot of people are leaving Protestantism, that's it in a nutshell.

It's not just change. It's this sense of powerlessness in the face of the change. So the culture changes and we get swept up into the culture. This is why we've got to think about this. This same person went on to say, I think there are a lot of Protestants who want to a more traditional grounded historical faith, and I think for young people especially, it makes sense because so much else in our lives is changing all the time. He also expressed his sense of comfort in this aspect of Eastern Orthodoxy. There's a sense of structure, of continuity. It's the exact same.

It hasn't changed. It's not going to change. Another convert said something very similar. I wanted to be somewhere that was stable and that wasn't going to change. It felt very ancient and that was not something I had experienced elsewhere. This really struck me because just the other day, like literally maybe five days ago, my dad gave me an article I was reading. It was from someone who'd converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, and they were describing why they had made that change, and it was the exact same wording verbatim, almost, to that quote.

It said, basically they were saying, I wanted something that wasn't changing in the midst of a world that's constantly changing. You see why we've got to think about this? It's very relevant to the world right now. I mean, whatever you think about the theology and the differences here, There's like a sociological reality that all of us need to think about. Here's another testimony from the article to the exact same effect. Everything's changing.

Protestant churches are changing. The Catholic church is changing. The culture's changing. The government is changing. People want something that is historic and not going to change. They want something that's stable and sound and not built on sand. We'll come back to that imagery of sand as opposed to rock when we talk about Josiah Trinem's book in just a second, which has the same imagery reflected in its title, Rock and Sand.

It's interesting in that quote as well, the reference to Catholicism. I actually know a lot of people like this. With everything going on with Pope Francis, Roman Catholicism is perceived to be like sand, just like Protestantism. These Western traditions are constantly changing, but in Eastern Orthodoxy, we have this stability and so forth. The other thing people, I think, are looking forward that the article draws attention to is a sense of rigor. Okay. This is part of the appeal to young men, and there's a lot of talk about masculinity in worship, which is interesting in this article. One convert described the sermons of their former Protestant setting as a TED talk. Another compared the worship in their former Protestant setting to a rock concert. I thought that was

fascinating because that's the exact same language I've used to criticize some evangelical practice. The article even interviewed Jordan Peterson, who said this, and you can just imagine him saying it in, I wish I could impersonate him, but I won't try. Unlike a Protestant service, which is much more dependent on the preacher, you can't criticize an Orthodox service. Now listen to this. It's like going to a ballet and asking, what's going on here? Well, that's a stupid question. I just, I have a lot of affection for him and his manner of speaking, and you can just imagine him saying, that's a stupid question. So funny. But I think Peterson's observation there is really insightful and interesting to think about it. The preacher,

versus the ballet. So ballet has a lot of different things going on and it's all very orchestrated. That's his perception of how an Eastern Orthodox liturgy feels. Protestant settings put more pressure on one person, the preacher. I think that's true. So already we're starting to think and kind of maybe realize what do we need to do about this. Maybe some ideas are coming to our minds. We'll speak to that in a moment. But here's one last factor that is not insignificant. Please give some patience to this. This is not something. to look away from, and that's the realm of online apologetics. So I couldn't believe this.

Again, it's like reading this article is like, I think about this stuff all the time. It's like, oh, I'm not the only one who's seeing this. One of the catechists at Josiah Trenum's Church out in California, Eastern Orthodox Church, I think, in like the Riverside area, was quoted in the article as noting that their parish is full of young people. They're growing a lot right now who are converting to orthodoxy, and he attributed some of this to the internet. Quote, internet orthodoxy is a recognized phenomenon.

We get people who come in all the time who are like, I was on the internet and arguing with people, and I discovered orthodoxy and I found your church. That is not isolated. Okay, that happens a lot right now. Like it or not. Here's, again, I'm trying to make an appeal here. This is a simple video in some ways,

but people need to understand this. Like it or not, people go to the internet, and especially YouTube and podcast, and social media for significant decisions in their life. Unfortunately, even TikTok has a big influence. For better or for worse, that's a sociological reality. This is where conversations happen.

People are influenced. That's why I do what I do here Truth Unites. I've become convinced that this is a way to try to meet needs, and I feel a fatherly, miscellological burden, try to be a friend to young men, especially, who are working through theology and have angst and so forth. So whatever that means, whatever you take from that, we need to be aware of that. And we need to think strategically about how do we meet the needs of the times right now.

That's what I'm trying to do at Truth Unites. All right. Second question. Why does this matter? I think sometimes people can be naive. This is why I try to speak to this. You'll hear parents, you know, someone will have a child that becomes Eastern Orthodox when they go off to college and they'll say something, well, I'm just glad they're taking their faith seriously now.

I've heard this kind of stuff. I think there's a lot of naivety about the differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism. These are serious differences. Those of you who watch my channel know I try to celebrate the common ground where we can, but also try to be honest about the differences. There's lots of ways to see how serious the divide is between Eastern Orthodox and Protestant, but one of the easiest is just to listen to what they say. To listen to how Eastern Orthodoxy categorizes Protestantism and treats Protestant-

converts in. Sometimes people have this naive idea that it's just a movement from one expression of Christianity to a richer and more historical expression of Christianity. But that's not how the Eastern Orthodox Church understands it. You see that in Josiah Trenum's book. He's an Orthodox priest featured in this article, and he wrote this book Rock and Sand, which I've read very carefully. I remember I thought of this book when I was reading the article because on page 153, he describes an exercise that he has his catechumans do. So if someone's coming into his church from a Protestant background, he explains that he has them right out on a sheet of paper, two columns, heresies and errors on the one side and truth on the other. And he has them right out as thoroughly as

possible what they are bringing from their Protestant background. What is heresy and what is true? And try to distinguish between that. And then it gives this rationale for that. Some catechumans are tempted to interpret their conversion to holy orthodoxy as a mere denominational switch and not what it is, a conversion from heresy to orthodoxy. Now, I think Trenum is correct there in how he's setting the stakes in terms of the historic and actual divide that is here. I don't agree with that assessment of what is the orthodox view and what is the heretical view, but I appreciate that he's giving a historically authentic portrayal of the differences. And I'm making a simple point right now that I hope wouldn't be that controversial even and needn't be. And that is,

this is a serious divide. This is something to take really seriously. This is not, no one should think, my child is converting to Eastern Orthodoxy, okay, they're just getting a little different flavor of Christianity. That's not what the Orthodox say. And I've documented this has been the focus of some of my recent videos. My most recent one, I invited people to give an answer to my question of basically just look at all these saints, look at these councils where it's been said historically that there's no salvation outside of Eastern Orthodoxy. How do you make sense of that? And it was interesting, the vast array of diverse answers that came in through that. There isn't really a coherent singular response. There's lots of different responses. And I'm just persuaded it's about

as clear as we could hope for in her history that historically Eastern Orthodoxy has restricted salvation to herself. And that's only changed in more recent times. That's my thesis. That's just what I believe is true. So now even if you didn't go that far, though, we can still recognize the divide is deep here, right? This is not like a conversion. If someone becomes Eastern Orthodox, this is not a conversion from like Baptist to Presbyterian or Presbyterian to Baptist or Methodist to Anglican or Anglican to Methodist, et cetera. It's not like they're saying to the rest of Christendom, you guys do church badly. What they say is you're not doing church. So we don't have a Eucharist. Look at the 1672 Synod of Jerusalem to see what they say about that. So the point is,

the divide is deep. And we are considered heretics. And so the movement, so in other words, this really matters. That's one reason just to see the stakes. Even apart from the material particular issues, that already helps us understand. This is a serious divide. Now, the other reason it matters to pay attention to this is because it reflects real weakness in much contemporary Protestant practice that we need to address. So let me say it in one sentence, main idea of this video. The stability and the rigor that people are searching for right now, we need to help them find that in the gospel of Jesus Christ. And that is going to mean reform and renewal in our church practice. So at least to the third question here, what do we do about this? How do we, you know,

how do we respond to this? The first thing is just we need to pay attention to this phenomenon. To me, it's unfortunate how much we sort of ignore different traditions within Christendom. There's still so much ignorance. And the online conversation, actually, for all the weaknesses of online communication, there are some benefits, and at least, you know, at least it is creating more discussion. Sometimes it's not always very productive. Sometimes it is. But at least there's more communication going on today than there was, you know, 100 years ago. We need to pay attention to these conversations and to these trends and study these other traditions. Ultimately, here's my message to Protestant churches. We need to retrieve historic expressions of worship. And this is not a light matter.

This is not a small thing. I see this as a fairly dire and desperate and important need. And I'm just actually going to talk about historic Protestant practices to start with, really here. But basically, my general perception, and this is a generalization, not intended as a condemnation of all evangelical worship, but just much of what is out there, over the last several decades especially, and it goes back in some respects. There's been such a watering down of expressions of worship that does make evangelical

worship services today feel very different from virtually all of church history. And this gives incredible ammunition to those who are arguing against Protestantism because relentlessly they take the worst of our practice and make that the whole. Nonetheless, the Seeker sensitive movement has kind of gotten down into our pores and it's become normalized and so much Protestant worship does have an entertainment kind of feel to it. And it simply lacks a sense of the transcendence of God. One of the converts in the article said this, Orthodoxy isn't a about us, it's about God, and I think young people today can intuitively sense that out. We know when we're being pandered to. What an interesting final sentence there. I do sense this.

Among Gen Z and younger people, they have this intuitive awareness. When we're trying to water things down too much, that is not what they want. Now, I don't agree that if someone is getting the idea here, like, oh yeah, the Orthodox worship is about God and Protestant isn't. I don't agree with that. I'm just saying that young people are aching. for a experience of worship that draws them up out of themselves and plants them in history and challenges them, pulls them out of the normal. That's a healthy desire. And we have a responsibility, those of us who have a pastoral burden for the church today, to try to meet healthy desires. Let me give a specific example. Tiny little thing, tiny little anecdotal kind of thing, but it speaks

maybe to a larger issue. Many years ago at a church I was at, and this is not to criticize this specific thing, but it's just representative. There was a decision to stop preaching from the pulpit and instead preach from the stage with a more portable music stand, as opposed to preaching out of the pulpit. It was a historic Protestant sanctuary, so that, you know, the pulpit is elevated, and it's this big round chamber and so forth, all of which was historically done for a specific reason. But the decision was made to move. Now, I think the intention and motive for this change was probably had a lot of good in it. I think the desire was to decrease distance between the speaker and the audience and to try to create more intimacy and more availability

and make it and so forth. There's some good in that, right? And I'm not a legalist about this. I think God, you know, you don't have to have a pulpit. I think the outdoor preaching during the Second Great Awakening, which was so controversial, God used that powerfully. But I'm just saying having pulpits, pulpits evolved and were developed for a reason. And the, you know, here's the thing, the overall drift like this often isn't very thought out. For example, a lot of the people who will think like this, we haven't necessarily studied. Why were pulpits built in the first place? And so there's a lack of intentionality and historical awareness in the change. Even if you think that change is right. It needs to be done with awareness, not just kind of out of a cultural thing.

And I think most people who watch my channel will be sympathetic to this, but the basic idea is, now is not the time to dumb things down. We need some serious reform. And here's my appeal. We don't have to leave Protestantism to do that. Historic Protestant worship would redress the situation as much as anything. I mean, if you were to go to a Presbyterian church 200 years ago, that would feel it would speak to the same needs. Historically, Protestant worship services have had rich liturgy and doctrinal sermons and theological hymns and beautiful aesthetics and so forth. Protestant worship even has some particular strengths, our theology of preaching, for example. That's a particular emphasis

within the Protestant tradition, I think, is very strong. And so, and this is true for all the different Protestant traditions. You know, if you're a Methodist, going back and under a Retrieving historic Methodist practices. If you're a Baptist, retrieving historic Baptist practices, there's a lot of non-denominational churches right now. This is something to consider. I wasn't planning on getting into all these things.

I'll try to just say something that's not even that controversial. If you're non-denominational, at least have a principled reason why. A lot of people are non-denominational, and they've no idea why. You know, if you're non-denominational, it might be worth considering. Is this intentional, or should we consider joining a

denominations are actually incredibly useful pragmatically. Also, even if you remain non-denominational, are you diligently studying church history to avoid the worst errors that can come in from this sense of isolation from the past? I just feel pastoral burden. We've really got some work to do here. We really got to let the roots go down. And if you want some specific suggestions of the kinds of things I'm talking about. I have a video out called evangelical worship needs church history. I go through five specific examples of changes we can make right now. And so you can watch that. I'll put a link to that in the video description. But the basic point of this video is just to encourage Protestants to pay attention to this and consider where we need to reform our practice.

That video will take us to the next step. But here's the final thing I want to say in this video. and I say this a lot and I say it, you know, try not to be obnoxious to anybody out there. I say this because I really think people need to hear this. And it's this. We need to remember that the human heart, the need of the human heart, and I'm going to say, the need right now for stability in a time of chaos, is ultimately found in Jesus Christ himself and in his gospel. I think we need to interpret the particular needs of the moment through the framework of the gospel.

what hearts are searching for right now is found in Jesus. Now that does not displace the role of the church, and it does not sideline these conversations about church history and theology as unimportant. Those are all worthy conversations. That's why I devote so much time to them. However, I do think this happens. It is possible to look to a church tradition to try to find stability in a particular historical expression when what we really should be looking to is Jesus,

self, there is often a lack of gospel clarity and gospel assurance. Among those who are engaged in these conversations about church traditions, take the imagery of rock and sand that came up from Trenum's book and from the article as well. What I would want to say to pastor young people who are seeking stability in a very chaotic time is first of all pointing them to the scripture. The solid rock beneath our feet is the holy scriptures, the words of God. Consider the imagery of Isaiah 40. The grass is here today, gone tomorrow, but what stands forever? The Word of God. That that actually would be my, I mean, I love Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura is a little bit of a different sort of doctrine than the more practical point I'm saying right now. But what I would want to say to

pastor young people today is make the scriptures, that bedrock foundation of confident truth upon which you can stand and place your life and your everlasting salvation. Make that's the secure point that you lean upon and take refuge in. Because actually, church tradition can have that allure of stability, but it's amazing how much it has changed over time. It's not the solid rock. It's important, but it's not the solid rock. Solo scriptura is simply a way of saying, locate your ultimate trust in the words of God. The only infallible rule that will never fail and can never err is what God says, because the church does err.

Oh boy, a lot more to say about that. But then the ultimate rock, of course, at a more existential level, as opposed to just theology that I want to point people to is Jesus himself. Consider Hebrews 10, which uses the language of the Old Testament tabernacle. You see the reference to the holy places there in the curtain to sum up without, I've done a lot of sermons on this passage because I love it. Sum it up in one sentence, Jesus' death on the cross has given us access to God. What formerly one person once a year could do, the high priest on the Day of Atonement ritual and Leviticus 16 going into the Holy of Holies through the curtain, tradition says they would tie a rope around his ankle to pull him out if he died because you can't go after him, right?

I mean, serious stuff. Every single person who trusts in Jesus now has that kind of access to God. Jesus's death on the cross has opened up this new and living way to access to the throne of God. And basically, you know, it's a simple point that I think even, for example, an Eastern Orthodox Christian can agree with me on this point. So I'm not necessarily making a technical argument against them right now as much as a pastoral point that I think is often needed in these conversations. And that's the rock of stability people are searching for is God himself. and that's what we have through Jesus. Okay? When you trust in Jesus, you have access to God.

It becomes your father, and you have full fellowship with him, and your sins are fully forgiven. Basically, every single problem you have is solved through Jesus. You're going to get a resurrection body. You have a regular intercessor before the throne, your high priest, Jesus. You have the Holy Spirit, the comforter and paraclete within you, your counselor. He's working on you even while you sleep. You know, there is nothing that your heart needs that isn't found in Jesus and his gospel.

So, the point is, pastorally, yes, seek the truth about these questions of church, tradition, and theology, but let your ultimate resting place that your heart is searching for in the chaotic times in which we live be nothing other than God. And the fellowship with God that you have with Christ. What does that look like practically? It means when you feel anxiety about the world, you go into your body. prayer closet and you get on your knees and you talk with your father, God Almighty, and you let his spirit strengthen you. It means that when you are feeling intellectual angst about theology

and you're not sure where to go, you trust in James I that God will give you wisdom and you go to him and you ask, you know, I come back to this word paraclyate all the time. You translated a comforter, counselor. I think we neglect the Holy Spirit at times. The Holy Spirit, has a ministry of assurance. He speaks to your heart. So you ask the Holy Spirit to give you wisdom and to speak to you and to help you in the process. This existential dynamic of gospel assurance I believe is needed right now in many hearts. And I'm never going to stop advocating for that because I believe in it so much. So that's not an argument for one. That's not an argument, a knockdown argument in the bigger questions. I try to do that elsewhere. It's a

pastoral word in the process. And the main point of this video is just to encourage Protestants to engage more to speak bluntly. I mean, I guess I need to put it this bluntly. We got some work to do. Our worship services need some reform. Not always. There's some great churches, of course, but a lot of them do. We need more connection to church history. We need more of that sense of stability and rigor. And we need to work on this. We need to think about this. This is a long term. This video is just one little flashpoint in a long process. Let's keep working on it. In the meantime, check out this video on how evangelical worship needs church history might be helpful in the process. All right, thanks for watching, everybody.

Let me know what you think in the comments. I'm going to read the comments very carefully on this one. All right, thanks everybody. Merry Christmas. I can say you now.