Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #124 Gus Worland On The Best Advice For Being A Parent

Episode Date: February 9, 2025

Daddy Matty J is still in the jungle, BUT he needs your help to take home the crown 👑  VOTE FOR MATTY J ON I'M A CELEB HERE https://shorturl.at/bEpXl Gus Worland has devoted his life to saving lives and being a solid dad and husband. After losing a mentor and father figure to suicide, Gus co-founded Gotcha 4 Life, an organisation committed to reducing the male suicide rate to zero. Gus shares the moment he found out his own dad was gay, advice for dads with young kids and how to keep your friendships alive as a dad. Plus, with 30 years of marriage under his belt, Gus shares how he and his wife first met.   Buy 'Boys Do Cry' by Gus Worland here https://www.penguin.com.au/books/boys-do-cry-9781761346583 2025 Raunchy Ranch Calendar IS STILL ON SALE!  https://budgysmuggler.com.au/products/two-doting-dads-raunchy-ranch  Buy our book, which is now available in-store! https://www.penguin.com.au/books/two-doting-dads-9781761346552  If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ash, one question we like to ask our guests on the podcast is their proposal story. Yes, and Gus has quite a unique one. I think this would be my favorite. Of all the proposal stories we've had, this is number one. You only see in movies usually where people ask someone to marry them on the first date. What a maniac! What an idiot! Seem to have paid off. But didn't expect the best story to come from old Gussie.

Now you might know Gus from his work as a sports commentator. He was also working at Triple M until he decided to hang up the headphones after a massive 16 years and put all his energy into Gotcha for Life. Gotcha is such a great organisation that emerged from such devastating circumstances. Yeah, Gus lost his mentor and basically a father figure who died as a result of suicide. This ultimately led to him building an organization that is dedicated to getting the male suicide rate down to zero. So if you or anyone you know is struggling, you can call Lifeline on 13 11 14.

Further info will be available in the show notes. Gus is married to Vicky. They have three kids and he's an advocate for opening up discussions around really important issues amongst men. He also gives us a bit of advice on how to stay happily married after, what is it? 30 years? 30 years! Jeez!

It was actually his 30th anniversary when we did this chat, which was awesome because he'd spent time with us and not his wife. Anyway, here is the conversation. Enjoy. Welcome back to Three Doting Dads. I'm Matty J. I'm Ash. And I'm Gus Wallins. And this is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good, it is the bad. And the relatable. And Gussie, we, can I call you Gussie?

Of course. Gussie, we don't give any advice here. Ash and I, occasionally we will. If you'd like to give advice, you can give advice. If it's non-advice, but it's stories that shouldn't be taken as advice, perfect. We like to just pre-warn everybody. Yeah. I think I'm probably more of a preacher

than I expect myself to be or want to be. But that comes with maturity and being 56 a couple of days ago. And I could be your father easily. No. Happy birthday, by the way. Thank you. How old are you? Me?

Yeah. 46. No, I'm just kidding. 34 Thank you. How old are you? Me? Yeah. 46? No, I'm just kidding. 34. I'm 34. 34.

I'm 37 and that's part of the reason why we were excited to talk to you because we always mention there's a hierarchy of parents and when we speak to someone who's got children younger than us, we then preach down to them. Like, listen here. Can we speak to someone? Oh, I remember when that was happening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're much wiser because you're far higher

in the hierarchy of parenthood. Well, I'm not 100% sure about that, but I reckon that definitely is the go though, in terms of like, you know, you look around and you think, oh, well, I've been here and done that. And I find myself saying over and over again, aha, take in every moment. Yeah.

Gee, it goes quickly. And I'm like, why am I keeping that thing in that corner? But even we, we're guilty of that at the park. Someone's with a newborn and I'm like, oh, before you know it. I know, it becomes part of your small talk. And you're just like, oh, it goes fast, doesn't it? As soon as someone's like, yeah, he's just turned one. You're like, and just to keep the conversation,

you're like, oh my God, that went so fast. Yeah. And they're probably thinking, no, it fucking didn't. Yeah. It's so slow. It's so long and I can't wait for this to be over. I know. Now that I've got three kids away from home,

so Abby's 21, she's in Canada. Jack and Ella have been in England for four and three years. I find myself going, gee, it goes fast. I remember when Mai and then one of the children, and then I tell them about what my children are doing now, just as if they've asked for it, but they haven't. All they've gone is like, hello, or something like that, and I'll just get into that.

And that gives me two, three minutes, few stories. Oh, why England? Oh, then my wife and I, and I can go forever after that point. I have no doubt. Before we chat about your kids, I'm gonna test your memory here, Gus. We always like to start off and see what our guests were like

when they were much younger. I'm talking about teenage years, even earlier, if you can recall that far back. Yeah. What were you like as a young man? I was a chubby, happy, lots of mates around me, lots of sport put me in a box. And I was happy as soon as I was sort of a little bit outside of that box. I was no good. So I went to a school that was a boaters and blazer and loved it. My brother, two years ahead of me, couldn't wait to leave, went to America to finish off his schooling. I was just a happy, happy little

kid who just loved to eat and loved sugar and loved like soft drinks and stuff. You remind me of someone else on this podcast. He's a little similar, cut from the same cloth. This guy. Yeah. Well, I mean, you and I are very similar from what I've known from the time we spent together. Always up for a laugh, always seeing the funny side of things. But I think it comes with an authentic sort of good heart as well, you know, which is... I like to think that too.

I was always told, oh, you wear your heart on your sleeve. I was the one that cried. I was the one that gave people hugs and stuff. And I told girls after a date and a half that I loved them. And I'd be perfect on, you know, some sort of, you know, show like that on TV. I don't know if there's one available. You're very happily married, but the Golden Bachelor is casting at the moment. I did say that to my wife.

She's a lucky lady, 30 years today. Yes. Congratulations. Is the casting at the moment? I did say that to my wife. She's a lucky lady, 30 years today, yes. Yes, congratulations. And we're talking about that too, because she sent me a photo of her in her wedding dress this morning. She sent it to the family WhatsApp, because our kids are very proud of us.

Did she send it in the family WhatsApp to remind you that today's the day? No. Don't forget. I knew that it was the day, but I think she just wanted to, I don't know, it was a nice memory for her and she looks fantastic. In fact, you know, she's slimmer than she was all those years ago. And I think, you know, she's been working hard on herself.

So I think that was a really nice little moment. And our kids just dropped straight into, how long is it again? And mum, you look wonderful and all that stuff. So it was just a nice sort of start of the day for us. You had talked about you wearing your heart on your sleeve. Where does that come from, do you think? Is that because I know that you've spoken about your dad leaving when you were quite young. Is that because you spent a lot of time then with your mum? I think so, and also other mates' mums as well.

So dad left officially when I was 10, but he was sort of out of there probably around I was about two. And I found out when I was 18 that he actually left mum for a male who he's still with now, his name's Ian, who's an absolute bloody champion. But I didn't know that at the time. So mum and dad got along really well. And then one day I came home from school, I remember it so well, there was boxes at the door, but there was nothing in them. I thought, that's weird. Yeah, that would be bad.

And then as I sort of got out of my school gear and started mucking around with my brother, the boxes started to be filled with stuff. And then dad was putting them in his car and I thought that was all weird. Was it tense between you, mum and dad in that moment? Mum was getting along with everything that she normally did, baking a cake and making us dinner.

And I just thought it was weird. Maybe there was a clear out or something in my head, but I've always lived in a bubble. I've always lived in a bubble where I've never really totally understood what's going on at any time. And that was a perfect example of that. And then Mum and Dad sat down and said, we've got something to tell you.

Dad's not going to be living here full time and whatever. And I literally, and I love my food, I've spoken about already, I threw my plate. I remember so well because I hadn't started yet. Three cutlets, mashed potato and veggies. And I remember I getting up for a meal. That's a waste of a good meal. It was a waste of a good meal.

And I smashed the china up against the thing and then I ran down to my mate's place and I worked out later that mum rang, said, oh, he must be down there. And the mum got that message from mum, this is what's happened. And she said, I'll look after him until he calms down. And I stayed there a couple of nights.

I eventually went back, dad had left and it was just mum, me and my brother. And mum was a very loving person. So maybe it was to do with that. But I think it was my personality from a young kid as well. And we're, you must have been angry. Do you remember what your emotion was then? Definitely anger and just like,

it was probably the first time that I remember where I absolutely didn't understand and was confused and all that stuff. And I think at 12 years of age, you're probably like that anyway. Yeah. I was trying to all that stuff. And I think at 12 years of age, you're probably like that anyway. Yeah. I was trying to work stuff out. And then I went to school the next day and spoke to my mates. And a few of them sort of said, oh, I think my mom and dad will be the same. Or my mom and dad live in separate rooms or they have the same room,

but two single beds now. It's gone from a double to a single. And then I was like, oh, I thought everyone's life was sort of perfect. Yeah. And that was my first thing. And I spoke to my brother about it. My brother's much less emotional than me. He just goes, mate, that's just the way it is. And then about dad, because I got really upset about dad, the fact that everyone else seemed to know and I didn't know. Why couldn't you trust me with this information? Anyway, when I found out, first thing I did is had to go home, ring my brother, because there's no mobile

phones. He was living in Chippendale. We're in Pimble. So it was about an hour's drive. And I said, Get your ass over here. How long have you known about dad? And he went, Yep, on my way. And he came over and he'd known since he was 14. So he pretty much knew from the time that left. And I just didn't understand why. And when they when I asked them why they said, Well, your life was going so. And I just didn't understand why. And when I asked them why, they said, well, your life was going so well.

Like we didn't want to throw this curve ball at you because everyone was, you were happy. Do you think when you look back, do you like, oh, I can appreciate why they were wanting to protect me. Do you think the best thing was how it played out or do you think, no, I should have been told, like it's such an important message. And to be told last,

that has worse effect than whether I was told upfront. Well, the other thing, totally, I'll answer that in a second. I wasn't told by anyone in my family. So if some of your listeners may know, or I've heard a bloke called John Newcomb, who was a famous tennis player. So he was like my second dad, lived in the same street.

And Newcomb actually took me out for dinner to tell me famous tennis player. So he was like my second dad, lived in the same street and Nuke actually took me out for dinner to tell me on behalf of all the friends that were all that knew and were wondering why I didn't know and we sat down I remember so again another good meal waster because the spring rolls of the dim sims like arrived on a plate and he goes by the way your dad's gay and I was thinking okay there's a joke in here like an Irishman, a Scotsman walking to a bar like what is this and he goes did you know and I'm like wow hold on for a second is this what it what and he goes well everyone knows and was wondering why you weren't talking about it so now I know you don't know. So how old are you at this point Gus?

So I was 19. So I done my gap year, came back and was my first job doing marketing for the New South Wales Open Tennis at White City just down the road here. And you took me out for dinner cause I'd done a good job. That was the, what he'd said. And as I said, the Demmys and the Springys arrived.

And before I could get my buddy Gob into one, he told me about dad. So obviously I was teared up, I was upset. There was a lot of emotion there. I then went back home, rang my brother, spoke to mom. Mom was furious that Nuk had said anything. Yeah, bad. Cause that was her role.

And I was like, you've had like 10 years to say it. So that happened. She goes, I was just about to tell you. Yeah, that was on the agenda for next week. We'll chat about it. Anyway, the next morning, I remember not getting a lot of sleep that night. But the next morning, hearing the doorbell go and you was there. And you then said, I'm really sorry if I overstepped. And they went through that discussion as two adults would. And then Nuke offered to send me to America, which is where my dad was.

So I could have that conversation face to face. Back in the day it was like Nuke had a deal with Quanus. So he had tickets literally sitting in his top desk and you could fill them in on where you wanted to go. Has he got any left? Now it's like all on the computer but he only so that afternoon I flew to LA and then LA to Vegas where dad was. What was that conversation like with your dad? So I took two days to bring it up. So he didn't know why you were there? He said why are you here? Definitely when he saw me and I said I knew you know sprung this trip on me

because I did a good job with the tennis and blah blah blah and no worries. Meanwhile my brother's rung my dad and said he's coming over, he's coming in hot, so this is a story. So my dad's waiting for me to tell the story. I'm too gutless to tell the story and then eventually after a couple of days we're around the pool and I said, Dad, actually, the reason I'm here is this and the longest discussion my father and I've ever had, it went for hours. And I remember it being really sunny. And by the time we finished, I had my towel around me by the pool, like, it can get quite cold in

the desert at night. Anyway, and then we went out and had the most fantastic night and Ian, whose dad's partner still now as I said, he was there. And I just gave him the biggest hug. And I said, mate, like, this is nothing on you. I just need to work this stuff out myself. But you're, you're like a uncle to me. I love you like another dad. Did you? Did you know Ian at all prior to this? That was the first time you met him on that trip. He's always been dad's

business partner, right, right inverted commerce. So he's always been dad's business partner. Right, right. In inverted commas. So he's always been Ian and dad and Ian have lived together but separate rooms and I'm like, oh, that's just like my mates. When I grow up, I'm gonna live with my mates. So this is this bubble I was talking about. Yeah. I remember going to Whale Beach once,

we had a place down there and my girlfriend and I, Jackie, just came up from the beach and dad always said, ring before you come to the house, right? And one of these days I was like, bugger that, I'm just gonna go up, jump in the pool, freshen up for the drive home. Well, I turned up and it was like,

it was like the village people, YMCA all rolled into one, the music was going, they had the hooch on the go, there was like 30 blokes all in speedos. Dad's got a lot of mates. Even then I'm not going, Oh, my dad might be gay. I'm going, Oh, dad's got a whole lot of mates. And that's really cool. Yeah.

And, and, and so dad then come out and we have a chat and have a swim and you say, good day to everyone. And then I leave and they're like, well, that that's obviously going to, and that made Jackie, my, my partner at the time, um, talk to my mates and say, well, I don't think he has a clue because he's literally walked into Mardi Gras on a float and hasn't worked it out. The walls of that bubble are thick. Let's see your cotton socks.

What was it like when your dad first left? My mum and dad split when I was about 12 as well. And for me, it left a really big void that I wanted to fill for that father figure. What was it like for you? I definitely wanted it filled. I found it with Newk and I found it with Angus Roberts, who was my mentor who took his own life that started Gotcha for Life for me. So two very big personalities. Plus there's parts of my mates' dads that I went, oh, I love that, that's really good.

So I would be one of the kids sometimes talking to the parents when the kids were outside having a laugh, not for long, but I would not just be straight in and out and fun and pulling. I would be like interested. So there was a few fathers like Jacko's father, Chris Jackman, who was an absolute bloody,

he's a tyrant at times, very religious and stuff, very different to me, but I would learn some disciplined things from him, some hard work, don't keep giving yourself treats, you know, I'm a great one of do something good treat. Oh me too. You love that. That's the thing, I went to the gym last night, came home and had an ice cream, I was like yeah. You could have easily just had the ice cream. I could have, but I felt like I needed to. Don't encourage him came home and had an ice cream. I was like, yeah. You could have easily just had the ice cream. I could have, but I felt like I needed to-

Don't encourage him guys. Don't encourage him, he goes. A little something, something. How did you meet Angus? Yeah, so Angus was my cousin's boyfriend, then my cousin's husband. And I loved him so much when I did year 12, like a work experience, I worked for him

at Trinity Prep School, he's a PE teacher. And then four or five years later when I'd finished school, I was goofing around and my wife was teaching at PLC Pimble as a PE teacher to posh school up on the North Shore. And Angus came up behind me and sort of put his arm around me and said, time for you to, you know, start doing some stuff, you know. I was like, what? Life's good. And he's like, mate, time for you to, you know, put your head down and

find something that you're going to do. Bit old school, but I probably needed it. And then he got me a job working at Toshiba selling laptop computers, which was when laptops were 10 grand apiece, and only the bosses had them perfect time. Eight years later, I finished off after working in Toshiba in a few different countries, we gave the computer away, as long as you bought the dongle for BT Telecom or whatever it was, it was all about that, not the actual hardware. So I went from really at the start all the way to what is very normal

now is a laptop and he taught me everything. He was bloody fantastic and I never worked a day at Toshiba after he died. Not one day. Not one day. It was like, it was just, I couldn't do it. I went to Toshiba, Australia to try to find a note because I was in England when he took his own life. So I went back to Toshiba and I walked into his office and I looked everywhere to see because it just made no sense to me that he he would do that but never found it and then I've never done anything at to Schuba since. How do you digest that

type of grief finding that someone who played such a pivotal role in your life is now gone? Really badly. The first maybe five years, I used to just get drunk on the anniversary, shout at him, call him names. I used to go to the spot, my spot, what I call our spot, and just be so angry and sad. And then I learned some stuff and I was brave enough, I suppose, to talk about it on The Grill Team, which was a very blokey show. We'd never show vulnerability. We always just told jokes and gave away tickets and talked sport. And I asked Maddy, John's and MG one morning if I could talk about my friend. And I said, we've been doing this show for six years.

I reckon our listeners are loyal. They're ready for this. And we went, OK, let's see how we go. So I told the story of Angus, took his own life on the day that his third and final child finished their HSC. Oh my gosh. So what should have been a celebration? It would have been such a tough time.

And then how many people were at the funeral? Thousands, literally. They loved him and no one had a clue. And the end of the break, you know what it's like in radio, three or four minutes, go to a song and every line at Triple M was buzzing and just needed to be picked up and people were going, I want to tell my story. It's like we gave them permission to talk about something. Yeah.

So I drove home to Eleonora and said to my wife, just on the small little team at the grill team, we had 90 minutes of phone calls back to back. We didn't play another song, not another news report, not another traffic report. All morning we just went literally one person after another going, this is what happened to me. This is what happened to me. This is what happened to me. I realized how many people are worrying alone. So I was able to get some money from the ABC and do the Man Up program. And then from Man Up came Gotcha for Life. And every day I now talk about my friend. When was this? How long ago?

So 2016 was when I spoke about it. 2016 I did Man Up. 2017 we started Gotcha. So we're eight years into Gotcha now. Wow. Doesn't sound like a long time, eight years. But like almost a decade ago, it was honestly never spoken about at all.

We've been a part of that changing of the guard. And you guys were a part of that too. And there's some other cool people like you guys that can show a young person that you can be good looking with tats and but still talk with being authentic and real and be, you can still be a knockabout. You can still love a beer and you can have a cry. You can tell a mate you love them.

You can just find the guts to to actually talk Which is what we've been told to man up and shut up. It's actually man up and speak up Mm-hmm, you know and it's not just males either we lose seven blokes a day two women a day But every eight minutes someone attempts and most of those are women So we've got to get to the point where we put a line in the sand in this country and say I don't want to Live in Australia like that. And we're getting there. But it takes time and it's going to be generational. You guys with your children will definitely be different to how your dad was with you. And it will be better in terms of us being more human and less puffing your chest out.

I think one of the questions that a lot of people have, we've definitely spoken about the topic and we often get this, is someone who maybe thinks that they may need to speak to a friend who's not doing well, how do you approach that conversation? You know, R U OK Day is one that has a lot of momentum, but at the same time, it's how do you get from just surface level to actually getting deeper into understanding how someone's coping mentally?

Practice. You know, you can't do it one day. Like, I do heaps of work for RUOK. I love it. And their tagline is a conversation can save a life. Absolutely. But how do you have the conversation? That's the problem.

Like people like us who are communicators might be a bit easier, but I still find it hard to go away from banter into a proper discussion with a friend that I love. Whoa, I had one this morning with a mate and I'm just like, I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking about it. I'm breathing heavily and eventually I went, mate, I've got to talk to you about something that's really awkward. And as soon as I said that, he knew it wasn't going to be talking about if other roosters are going to make the top eight next year

or stuff we normally talk about or the cricket that's just played in Adelaide. So there's all that sort of stuff happening. You've got to practice having conversations of gravity, and the only way you do that is by starting. And people go, oh, I don't know how to do it. Bumble and fumble your way through. Send them a text, send them an email, write them a letter. You don't need to have the face-to-face tears running down the eyes combo,

because that's bloody hard. But to say to someone, I need to talk to you about something that's quite sensitive, or I want to have an adult conversation, whatever you want to talk about, get it out there in a way that's easy for your technology. I mean, we've literally got our phones attached to us. So we all know how to send a text. So do that, but start it. There's too many people not having conversations they should be having. I think it's much easier not to start it. That makes sense. So like, oh, you know, maybe I'll start that conversation next time. I found that, like, with some of my friends, if I sort of, if I'm telling them a story

about something's happened with me, usually they'll find something that relates. And then that's how the conversation will begin, usually. It's daunting to have a conversation with someone on a different level that you're not used to having. That's right. You're sort of usually at this surface level of like bands, bands, bands as a boy. It's comfortable, right?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're like, all right, I'm in a listen straight. And it is awkward to be like. It's for you guys, because you're jokers anyway. Like that's where we're comfy. Yeah, like Matt. It's a gear change that is a lot harder to get into. You've got to build a safe place, Matty.

So you can't be chatting away band to band to band and watching the game, having a few beers in a local pub and then go, by the way, oh, I need to tell you something. Pick your moment. You know, you got to be safe. And they're looking around going, are we? What's happened here? Yeah, what? Well, I thought we were just fucking around. All of a sudden, it's like, at the end of that conversation, say, Hey, we have a coffee this week, there's something I really want to talk to you about. And you're absolutely right about showing

some vulnerability yourself. And as soon as you say some vulnerability some vulnerability people go I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, actually I wouldn't mind talking to you about that. Yeah, you've built The safety for them to have that conversation. So I keep talking about and I'm working on a Keynote at the moment about leading with vulnerability How do you lead with vulnerability rather than walk away from it? Which is what certainly your parents have been taught and maybe some of you guys too in your 30s. Certainly 56. I'm like, oh, vulnerability. I don't want to show that weakness. No, that's actually not a weakness. It's a strength. Is that where you had the idea for the boys don't cry?

Yeah. So basically boys don't cry and then we'd slash through the NT so it's boys do cry. I just love kids and I loved being a dad when the kids were particularly small, like sort of mini sort of kids, three, four, five, six, seven. Like where we're at right now. Yeah, pretty much where our mental sort of age is. And I also realised after eight years of doing gotcha, we've just started a primary schools program. So anyone listening here that have kids at primary school and you want your primary school to be a mentally fit primary school and have that stamp at the front, get involved because it won't cost the school anything. It's a fully funded program where we want to get the kids, the parents and the teachers and all the staff

mentally fit. How start having those discussions like, you know, if you have your five veggies and your fruits and stuff that'll make you better. Well, what are the exercises for the emotional muscle? And that is more important than anything. And we're we are basically told by people that are emotional muscle, especially boys is turned off at a really young age. And it can be just falling in the playground

and one of the older kids calling you a name. And you go, oh, that's obviously not behavior we're allowed to do. And we just turn it off. And blokes are in their 30s, 40s and 50s now trying to turn it back on again. Yeah, see, I feel like you're very modest. So I'm going to give you a compliment.

I'm sure you're not going to want to take it, but it's really incredible to see the work that you're doing. And you're like, fuck it, if only there were more gusses in this world, but your dedication to such an amazing cause is awesome. So well done. Thank you, Matty. I appreciate that.

If you said that to my wife, who was equally important in this whole thing, she's English, right? She'd deflect and stuff. I will accept that because it is bloody hard work. Soak it up. And it's nice to hear that from you, but like you celebrate for a New York minute. I don't know if you guys know what a New York minute is, but it's basically the time that the traffic lights go from red to green and the first honk of the horn.

Right? So that's a real short amount of time. Like we've had the last two years a slight decrease in suicide, like 43 people. And you think, oh, 43 people in 3000. Say, hey, 43 people and families and communities and clubs haven't been affected this year and then the last year. So we're going to celebrate that. But then we realised that it's the number one way to die. If you're a young Australian male or female. 15 to 44 is suicide. So we're not accepting it, but we're saying we're on the right track.

You were talking about Vicky. We had to stop you before we recorded. Actually, sorry. You were talking about how you and Vicky met. Yeah. And we were like, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is good. This is good. This is good. What was his name?

Roger. Roger. Fucking Roger. We? Roger, Roger. Roger, oh. Fucking Roger. We're not even Roger. We're not talking about Roger. So what happened was I went on a gap year to England, 1987, and I had a girlfriend, and I loved this girl.

Been with her all the way through like year 11 and 12, and she was going to France to do, she'd done four-unit French at school, and she wanted to go and live in France, because that's a proper way of learning rather than through a book. And by the time I saw her at the Easter break, I'd broken up with her because I knew I was in love with this other girl. But this other girl had this boy called Roger who was her boyfriend and her name was Vicky.

Stinkin' Roger. Bloody Roger. Actually Roger's a really nice guy. I bet he is. As I'm saying it, I'm like, he's probably like, what did I do? Yeah, Roger's listening in going, Gus, it's me, Roger. He's a big fan of the podcast. Roger will be listening in.

And anyway, they went out and had been going out for years, right? So I just sort of, you know, that's fair enough. And then Vicks came out to Australia and he came out with her, so it was a bit annoying. And then they broke up on their big, like six week trip through, you know, in Foropital. Oh no! Oh, damn!

Oh, and Roger's going home? See ya mate, just gonna live to the fucking airport. So I did that and then Vicks and I, nothing ever happened but it just stuck in my mind and all my friends said, look, it's obvious that what's going on here and blah, blah, blah. So three years later. Three years? Yeah, so I wrote her once a week for three years, like aerograms,

which is, you look over here. What is that? What is an aerogram? It's basically a... A smoke signal. Ha ha ha! You know, whoop, whoop, whoop. Hope you're well. She's like,

Hey, hey! I saw a sky rider the other day and I was like, old school. Well, this is really old school. So it's basically a bit of paper you got from the post office. You don't even know what... I'm listening. You don't even know what a post office is. And you write on it and then it folds into an envelope

and then that gets sent. And the stamp. Is that what they stamped it for? No, it's already on the stamp. The stamp's already on the- Three stamped. Get the fuck out of here. And I used to send those and Vix has still got them.

In fact, they're in our garage. I saw them the other day. So I send one a week every week and she would send maybe one every couple of months. Right. So she was very much sort of like, you're in Australia, I was definitely like lost of time. That's the equivalent of double text messaging.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. More than. It's like maybe eight to nine. And I did that with my wife. So I'm with you. I'm listening. We'll play. So eventually I went to England and asked her to marry me the night that I first saw her.

The first night I saw her. So it was like a letter relationship up until that point, just all letters. That's right, after knowing each other for two years. Hang on a second. I've just got to pull you up on something. I always thought, who are these people out there who are asking someone to marry them without at least like testing the waters? Yeah. Like they're maniacs.

You're that person. I'm that person, but Vicky is not because she told me to fuck off. Okay. So, all this big build up, fly to Heathrow, get the bloody train to Bath and then the Badger Line bus from Bath to Wells walked into the pub at lunchtime.

She's on a uni break, so she's working the bar to pay off her uni loan. And I walked straight up to her chatting, da da da, and she goes, oh, I'm working till three, then we'll go into town and whatever. And then that night she's back working again, so I just sat and of course I knew people because I'd been at that school. So I knew some so got drunk as a skunk then we said, alright

We're gonna go to this nightclub in Shepton Mallet. Don't ever go to Shepton Mallet if you give him the opportunity And about three in the morning, you know, of course, I've got through jet lag I was buzzing again and said the reason I'm here is because I want to marry you and she was just like fuck off The reason I'm here is because I want to marry you and she was just like fuck off The next morning I heard her on the phone to a mom saying Gus is here He asked me to marry him and then there was a big silence, which I imagine her mom's going what a fucking idiot I always told you that goes. He's got a good heart, but he's fucking Is he the one that was writing a letter every week? Yeah, that stalker guy

What about Roger? What about Roger? But you're thinking about Roger, yeah. But there was another guy at uni, which I found out later was hovering. And anyway, so Vicks was sensible. She goes, well, hey, I've always, it's obvious that we've always had a little spark.

So I'll tell the bloke at uni that we're not gonna start and let's have a crack, you and I. And I went, that sounds good. So she went back to Plymouth. I drove down every Wednesday in the fruit van from the pub. And we basically spent about a month or so before she then said to me one night, I actually do want to marry you. Like I actually have been in love with you for all that time.

And I just needed to have a little bit of like, you know. Just some sort of. I know like a kiss. Yeah. So she went, so then we said a long engagement. She had two years left at uni. So why don't we have two years in her first year as a teacher.

So it's three year engagement. That's a good, you know, if we're still mates after that, then let's go. If not, we'll say, well, it's a good, you know, if we're still mates after that, then let's go. If not, we'll say, well, it's, it is what it is. And as I said, today is 30 years. Wow. That's a beautiful story. It is a good story. Huge congrats.

We usually get the story, it's like, yeah, we met at a pub once and then we got married and it was like, fuck, you literally walked up and said, I'll just marry you. Yeah. And she told me to fuck off. Yeah. Pretty much our conversation. Right. Why? This conversation become more and more similar as you hear it.

Garcy, your brother is a screenwriter. Yeah. Why is he not a movie? Yes. I don't know. That's a good point. Like, come on. Come on, Steve.

No pressure. If you're listening, Steve, no pressure. That, to me, screams like a. Matt and I would like a cameo in that movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll be the drunks in the bar. You could play me, like back in the day. Easily. You must have been really handsome.

You have to lose the mo. Lose the mo, lose the tats. We're very keen to talk about life with teenage kids, because Ash and I are trying to figure out what we have in store for ourselves. But before we do that, what was it like that transition to becoming a dad? Was it something that you hit the ground running? No, definitely not.

I was so excited. So Vicks and I had eight pregnancies for our three kids. So we lost twins sort of midway through teen weeks. We told people, so that was really difficult. And then we couldn't get pregnant for a little while. Shit, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. And it's really, you don't talk about it until someone mentions it and then you go, actually, me too, or you know a friend.

Yeah, that's that vulnerability thing, right? And it happens a lot. And then you feel like you've got permission to talk about it. That's the great thing about what I'm doing at Got You For Life is we need to give guys permission to talk about this guy. Yeah, because Woodsy said the same thing. Your close friend Woodsy. Yeah. Because he went through a couple miscarriages too and felt like he couldn't talk about it in the change room. And then when he did talk about it, some of the other players came out and said, yeah, we lost one too. And it's crazy that mentioning it, people then go, you have given me the net. You've given me the net, the permission and all, exactly. So when I remember Vicksring,

I was drinking like Chinese potions and all this stuff. And then if I shared, I'd come home for lunch to have sex. Fertility. Yeah, to whatever, you know, and I went and did. She was poisoning you. Well, in an Eastern medicine way, which is play on. And so basically then eventually won't go through that story too much, but we got pregnant

and then Jack arrived and the excitement was incredible. Healthy baby boy, absolute champion, huge kid, massive melon, everyone loved him. He was just this little nugget who he just smiled at everyone. He used to eat and just be happy. But I found it hard to find my place. I would come home I was all excited and as soon as I sort of picked him up he was like, he was sort of going towards mum. So it took me a little while and I believe me talking about being vulnerable.

I wasn't vulnerable with my mates. I would say everything was awesome because that's what I meant to say. But actually what I was thinking was this. What's my place here? Vicks got her role. She's nailing it. And I'm just this big bullfead that doesn't seem to know what he's doing until Vicks came up with the idea of like when you get home, you do the bath. You do the shower. you do the shower,

you do the dry-in, put the cream on, just make him all snuggled and then bring him down for me for his last feed before he goes to bed. I had something to do, you know, and I got good at it, you know, and I created a space for us to have fun. And I remember being in a bath and Jack just sitting on my chest. And he just felt, for the first time, I felt he wants to be with me.

Yeah. And then there was some times I went, I'm going to take him in the shower now and see if the shower goes on his, you know, the water going down his face. And he'd go, like that. But he liked it. And I'd take him out of it and back in and he'd giggle. And then I found this nice comfy towel and bought 10 of them to make sure that we always had one not in the wash and I would just wipe him down and blah blah blah and get him ready

and then bring him down to Vicks and it was like 45 minutes. It was the best and now if you ask my kids they would all say that there's no doubt they absolutely adore. We adore each other. There's no way around that. And they can tell us stuff that probably a lot of kids don't tell their parents. And Vixen and I are super proud of that. How do you get there? By being authentic and real and not blowing smoke up their ass. And a lot of parents muck it up through the times when the kids

are a bit rebellious and stuff They are so much their own parents That they end up talking nonsense to their kids because they their kids are growing up in a world that is so different To the world that mom and dad grew up in so just take a moment and listen and ask the question This is how I feel you tell me how you feel rather than what are you doing? You're a disgrace I told you not to do this. You're grounded. All this. This is what happened 20, 30 years ago. So you got to learn what world the kids are in now. And parents aren't great listeners in general.

I worry like I, for me, like we're saying, our kids are still quite young. You've got, how old are you youngest now? 21. Wow. She's just arrived in Whistler doing, you know, a season, you know, a little one. We're empty nesters last Tuesday, last Thursday. Yeah, wow.

A week in. I see, I see teenage, and I've got a boy, my eldest is a boy, and I'm worried because I see all these teenagers now down the shops and they're dickheads. And I was a dickhead and it's like, how did you? Were you a dickhead really? Yeah.

Oh you were, okay. Yeah, I was the typical teenager where I got arrested, I did dumb shit. I don't know if that's typical, bro. Okay, anyway. I'll get to my point. I'm not the typical teenager where I would burn a house down and steal a car. You know, what are all the things? Austin, there's my thing.

The question I'm getting to is when you had your elders as a boy too, like through that teenage hood, like, do you have any, any advice for me and Matt? Like, I'm, this only thing I worry about. I don't know why. Well, a lot of the- To not be a dickhead? Yeah. Yeah, well telling him that you're a dickhead

is a really good start. Okay, okay, that's easy. But at the time, that's right, say, hey, you're a part of me, this is what I did in style. I want you to learn from me. This is some of the stuff that I did. Doesn't mean you can't have fun and push the boundaries, but hey, learn it from me, blah, blah, blah.

And that's a really good way to start. You leading with vulnerability with him is really cool. I remember I have not always nailed it, believe me, and having someone like Vicki, who's a schoolteacher, smart, completely is brilliant for me. So I'm the fun side. She's a bit more of the serious and whatever, so we get a good combo.

But I remember Jack coming home from Bally Boys, which is, you drive past Bally Boys, it looks like Shawshank Redemption, it does. But the school was absolutely brilliant for Jack and it's still continually brilliant. I got a great headmaster and everything worked out well. But I just had these preconceived ideas of high schools. My son should go to a private school

on all these beers, right? So we go one day, Jack comes home and he's got these little markings on his hand and there was 17 of them. I said, what are those markings? He goes, I wrote down every time someone called me a name today. So he's having a really bad day and then he got in his head about it. So he said, I'm going to mark it down when they call me a dickhead. Holy shit. You know, it's terrible to hear that as a dad.

So I'm just like, I mean, you'll never go to that school again. They're bullying you and blah, blah, blah. And I was on radio at the time. I had to do a piece on the triple in the morning bag and that teacher and that, you know, or just going nuts. Right. By the time my wife got home, I got him into the local St. Augustine's, which was the local sort of posh school on the beaches and

That was that and I hadn't asked Jack what he really wanted I just gone ahead and did it because that's what I did because I fixed stuff. I'm a fixer Yeah, and then Vicks came home and said slow down. Let's ask Jack what he wants an hour later She's ringing the school saying he is coming back. You're not going to that school. Jack's happy again and it's all good. And then she went to the school with Jack the next morning, explained it, went through it all, worked out that kid's a dickhead, brought that kid in.

His parents came in, didn't realise that kid was a dickhead. Everyone sort of worked it all out. And eventually that kid got expelled. Thank God for Vicky. That's right. I say that all the time. I literally say that all the time. And there's times where she goes to me, ah, you know, sometimes I feel like I don't know my spot.

Because mums in particular, and your partners will go through this, you've definitely got a role. And then all of a sudden that role changes and it takes a while to work it out. And Vicks has definitely had that. But now she realises that, you know, every time she opens a mouth, those kids are listening and they're getting information and they're like, she's awesome. And she works at Gotcha too now. So she's she's teaching a whole lot of kids about mental fitness

and young girls speaking, you know, with being authentic and real. I think it's also important you mentioned there to listen to what your kid wants. Because at that age, like five year olds-olds we've got now, sometimes if someone said to me, listen to what your kid wants, he's like, I want a monster truck. But if it's a 15-year-old, 16-year-old, they can articulate what they kind of want. Well, a 10 or 11-year-old. Yeah, and he's marked down that someone's called you a name. He also had the guts to tell you.

He could have been like, oh, it's nothing. That's all, yeah, we could have just rubbed that off. Yeah. He actually came up and I remember it so well, because I was doing Brecky radio. So I used to have like little, like midday little sleep. Because I was so tired. Me too.

All the time. And then I, and then he came up and he just lay on Vicky's side of the bed. I remember it so well. And I said, oh, what came up and he just lay on Vicky's side of the bed. I remember it so well. And I said, Oh, what are those markings, mate? What's that about? And he told me and he's quite, didn't show a lot of emotion and he cried and that's when I lost it. And then within an hour Vicks had sorted it all out.

Again it's another one of those learning things for me. Plus doing the Man Up program, we actually took the cameras into Jack school and we had like 20 kids sitting there and I was watching it on the little monitor in another room. And I watched 20 kids that I've known since under 6th Soccer, all being emotional within 15 or 20 minutes. Like literally just a little graze and it was happening. And I realised these boys are just little time bonds and they don't know how to talk about it. They must suppress so much. They suppress it all the time. Press it down.

I remember as a teenager and I wasn't having a really good, something just wasn't, I was sick a few times in a row and my friends were out doing something and I remember like I got to the point my mum was like, why don't you go? And I just, and I, for some reason I just broke down and I felt like I'd suppress so much emotion that eventually I went went as soon as someone scratched the surface. I was like, fuck. Like, yeah.

And it was mum, right? So you feel safe. I felt safe. But like you were saying, like they switch off their emotional muscle. Yeah. Like, well, that's wild. Because that's going to protect them. Right.

So if I'm that type of boy, you know, if I climb trees and I do stuff and I'm the star in the sports team and I don't take school too seriously because that's sort of frowned upon if that's what I'm meant to be. And in fact, it's complete nonsense. And it doesn't mean that we burst into tears every five minutes or have big, deep and meaningfuls all the time. But to be able to have that skill is incredible. And that's what we're trying to build at the moment. You can climb trees and cry. Yeah, you can actually be crying as you climb the tree. Because you might go, oh shit, this is really scary,

but I'm going to have a crack and do it. We stop kids doing so much now that perhaps we got up to, whether you're in prison or not. Sorry, Mum. I've got a question. I don't know if this is going to make sense, so you're going to have to bear with me for a second. Sure.

When I think about my role as a parent with my girls, I kind of think that I have a responsibility to try and steer them in a certain direction, help them along the way, and try and introduce to them what their passion would be. Maybe they're going to be an amazing painter, amazing singer, but what if they never find that passion? What if they never cross paths with what their interests are? And I struggle with knowing or trying to find that balance of like allowing them to find their own path and then trying to steer them in a direction

where they can get a taste for certain things. Let go, let go. I reckon the greatest thing you can do is let your kids go and do what they wanna do and make mistakes and so forth. So from our point of view, we had Ella who just went, I'm going back to England, you know, and she didn't really know what she wanted to do. She ended up in a modeling agency and she looks after the boys on the modeling agency, select models. Good job. And was just told, just don't kiss any of the boys, but these boys, they're a bit hopeless.

They need to be, here's your cab charge, here's your flight. I'm not going unless Ella goes, so Ella gets on the phone, gets them to the hotel, gets them to the shoot or whatever it might be, and she's found her feet. But she had no idea, no idea. Went to England, just thought I wanna have a crack. Abby took ages.

She left secondary school at the end of year nine. She did year 10 at TAFE. And then she went to a boy and girl school, co-ed school year 11 and 12, and just went to another level. Found friends, boys don't accept girls being dicks. So it all mellowed out. When she goes, I'm gonna leave school,

in year nine. Well, she came back from school. I was sitting on the sofa and she was in tears. Come off the bus, I said, what's going on? She goes, oh, this is what happened today. And I said, get your school uniform off and get everything that's got that badge and put it into a big bag, like one of those big black bags you'd use for gardening. I said, put your laptop, your PowerPoints, your power cords, the whole bit, anything to do with that school, whack it in a bag. And she did, she came and

I said, let's go. So we drove back up to the school and I was like Santa with it over my shoulder. Remember it's so well, I parked in the headmaster's spot because I couldn't be bothered driving. It was right where I wanted to be. So I thought I'm driving in there. I got out, she said, come with me. I went plonk the whole load of shit on the reception of the school and said, my daughter will never come back here again. Do not send me a bill. And I walked out and Abby was there and she was like,

like that gave a little nod. And we drove back, by the time we got back there, the head misses had rung. And I actually thought straight away, oh, I parked in a spot. So she was pissed off, but actually she was real. She was fading and she goes, what's the story Gus? And I said, well, this is what happened.

She goes, no worries, she understood. Yeah. Abby found it hard to find the right balance. She was sporty and also one of the good looking girls. So she just never found her right spot. And then she, like I said, finished off year 10. I remember this play, it actually looked a bit like you with the tats and all that sort of stuff. Handsome. Thank you. Sort of boy next door handsome. Oh with a dart.

Well. With a dart. Driving. I don't smoke anymore. I used to too. I used to love it. Dropping her off from TAFE because he was like 23 doing his apprenticeship on something and I was like what is going on? But it's like, just let her lead her, let her just feel safe when she's with us. And anyway, she's bumbling and fumbled and found a way. Now she's happy as she's ever been in Canada. She's worked her ass off. She's got savings. She's gone great. So my suggestion always is to be there for support and when you're asked a question, answer the question and stuff,

but basically just make every time they ring you or think of you, they think of you as a safe place that they can talk to you about absolutely anything. Don't be the dad that when they ring you, because they'll do it. There's probably, there's going to be issues, whatever it might be, and they don't feel they can ring you

because you're going to be upset with them. That would be my suggestion. It's worked for us. I remember putting a hole in the wall when I was like eight, and I remember I would always go to mum and go, fuck, this is the situation, how do we solve this? And she would be disappointed, but I always remember I had zero fear

going to my mum with the problem. She's upstairs listening probably right now. Hi, mom. So I think that's like the best advice is you don't want them to try and do things behind your back. Like that it would be just, you know, if my kids were ever in that situation where they didn't feel they could come to me, God, it would break my heart. So what's happened in your, if that happens, what happens, what's happened in your life with your daughters that have made them think that they can't come to you you know what I mean that that's that's

that's the path you're about to go on so don't be that guy that puts obstacles in the way to stop that you want that not to ever happen so to be the type that doesn't mean you can be walked over all the time doesn't mean you haven't got your boundaries but at the end of the day they want to love you you're're your, you're their father. They've got teachers to teach other stuff. You'll teach them the basics. Of course. No, Lola kind of hates me.

It's a real, yeah. It's a real fine line between, I don't know. It's kind of like a bit of like, it's a, it's like a really good leadership trait that people will follow you, but then also be honest with you. You know what I mean? And like, we, you know, you do fall into what your parents used to do because that's all you've really been taught. It's in your DNA.

It's in your DNA. We need to change. Yeah, for sure. And it's bloody hard. It's bloody hard being a male and a female. It's bloody hard being a boy and a girl. It's really, really hard if you're not quite sure where you are. And if you've got the DNA and you've got all this practice stuff,

you need to actually stop and go, oh, that's, you know, people say, oh, I'm starting to sound like my mom and dad. Well, that's what we're doing because that's what's our DNA. You've really got to stop doing that. Definitely outdated, that's for sure. Oh, because this world's a very different place to the world that your mom and dad grew up in.

Certainly what, sort of the next generation above you even, just those mobile phones is enough to make a huge difference. Do you stop worrying now that they've flown the nest? Never stop worrying. Like, you know, Vic still gets the phone calls and stuff. Like there was a break up amongst one of them the other day, a bit too raw to talk about which one. But you know, it's just disappointing. You just don't want your kids to be sad, but you know, mid twenties, you know, early twenties, this is a time to experiment, right?

And have a bit of a crack or whatever. So I always, I suppose I feel now that my three kids can come to Vic's or I, and between the two of us, we can work that stuff out. I like, I'm big on building the village, right? So I had the kids' godfathers, they said, oh, one of the kids rang them the other day and asked me that, and I'm like, that's so awesome. Some dads would go, why are you talking to me?

You gotta take all that ego out and go, I've built this village of people that they feel comfy around. I'm glad they're using them, you know? I'm glad they're having fun with them. We always end on the question of, what do you want your kids to remember? the one thing after they've flown the nest? And now that you're in that position right now

where your house is empty, if there was one thing you would like them to remember and talk about when they think of yourself and Vicki, what would it be? I think with me, I would love them to say that dad was kind. Yeah, dad was kind, you know. I think that would be the coolest compliment anyone could give me. Like just a nice, big, kind, big, cuddly bear, you know. Ella sent us a – I haven't got my phone right here now,

but she sent me a – I think that's Spotify bringing out like a year. The rap, yeah. The rap at the moment. And she had this song and she goes, I had that song because you gave me that song. And I don't even know the name. It's like a technology sort of, but it's like a, you can't help but sort of, if I put it on here for 20 seconds,

we'd all be sort of like enjoying ourselves. Very happy. What about the glow sticks? And she goes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she just said, that reminds me of you, dad. So that was a really lovely thing. And I just came off radio after 16 years and I had a like little tributes they put in,

you know, as part of packages and stuff. And, you know, Abby came on first, then Jack, then Ella and Vicks and the four of them. I was just absolutely lost it like this. I bet. Just what unexpected, I didn't know that happened. And to get my son to do anything like that was amazing. And you could tell that he was sort of doing it

on the way, on the tube, you know, to work in London. But it was just the fact of what he said. And I'm just like, oh, we've done good. Yeah. We've done good. But that doesn't mean it is plenty of times we've gone, oh my god, I don't know if this is going to work out. But the stuff I've learned doing Gotcha for Life really helped because I just wasn't such a helicopter

parent after that. I really gave them their space to be able to go off and do what they need to do. We say we don't give advice, but I'm the sponge soaking up the advice from Gus. You're a great man, a great dad. Thank you. You should be incredibly proud. I am incredibly proud.

And you guys have done so well. You're both good mates having a crack. I love it. I can't stand him. Lots and lots of listeners. I've never haven't met your partner, but I've met your partner, Maddie. And she's obviously fantastic and doing her own thing too. It's not easy, you know, being in the spotlight like you guys are

and bringing up kids and stuff. So the first real thing I'd say is just give yourself a bit of a break, you know, and I'm out here. See you in February next year. But it's like we need to throw away perfect. That's the best advice that anyone can just, we're throwing away perfect and we can look perfect on socials

and all that sort of stuff. But at the end of the day, what happens here, just between the four walls in a family, if you're kind and you're having a crack and you're trying to do the right thing, that's enough. Like it's bloody, bloody hard. So one thing we can do so easily

and they give us no bloody proper manual. You know, and every kid's different too. Like something that for your son that I might've done at Jack may not work and with your daughters, you might go, well, I tried that and that didn't work because they're all little, beautiful little things, individual things. And I used to say to Vicks, if she went out

and I was looking after the kids, as long as they're breathing, when you get home, you should be happy with me. Like she said to me once, no bad food, no stupid decisions. She was going away for a three day trip. Anyway, so we rang her from the pizza hut. We then rang her from the dog kennel. And then the third thing was we were having an ice cream

with the dog in the back of the car. And I said, don't tell me what to do. And I said, don't tell me what to do. Gussie, you've got an anniversary to get to. Yes. Huge congrats once again for the next 30 years. Thanks, Matty. Of happy, perfect, I'm sure there was never a dull moment. Never a dull moment, hasn't been perfect.

But well done and thanks so much for the chat. Thanks, mate. And just quickly, thank you. So 16 years on the air in our ears. Congratulations. Thanks mate. And wish you the best of luck with Gotcha. Yeah. And the future of that. I can't wait to see what happens.

And thanks again for coming on. It's a pleasure. Thanks boys. Matt, it's been a while since we've had a dad that is just a few steps ahead of us. Makes me nervous. Youngest 22. That feels like an absolute lifetime away that my little, my kids are gonna be that old.

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We'll see you then. See you. Bye. Bye. Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gadigal land.