Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #142 Jessie Stephens On Workplace Romance, Baby Highs And Prenatal Depression

Episode Date: May 4, 2025

Jessie Stephens fell in love at work with her boss’s son, Luca Levigne. What started as an office romance turned into a life together, and they now have a daughter, Luna, who is almost two. Jessie opens up about the spiciness of that early relationship, the reality of prenatal depression, and the pressure to “get everything done” before birth that left her feeling emotionally flat.  BUY OUR SMELLY T SHIRTS HERE  https://www.twodotingdads.com/category/all-products Buy our book, which is now available in-store! https://www.penguin.com.au/books/two-doting-dads-9781761346552  If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ash, did you know that most romances happen in the office? Hate to break it to you, Matt, but I'm a happily married man. Oh, babe. But a couple of drinks, I mean. Ash, please. Oh, sorry. Well, today's guest is a Sunday Times bestseller broadcaster and known for her astute opinions on Mamma Mia Out Loud.

I'm talking about Jessie Stevens. She also happened to find love in the workplace. Oh Matt, and not any kind of love. Ooh, Luca Levine also happens to be Jessie's boss's son. Oh, that's juicy. You never know who, what or where you'll find the love of your life, Ash. That's what makes life so exciting.

It certainly added a bit of spice to the workplace, that's for sure, and Jessie spills all the tea. Yes, because, spoiler alert, Luca and Jessie's romance produced a beautiful baby girl, little Luna, who is almost two years old. Jessie also has a bit to share about her experience of parental depression and how the pressure to get shit done before she gave birth made her feel numb.

Welcome back to Two Doting Dads and One Doting Mum. I am Matty J. I'm Ash. And I am Jessie Stevens. I am the doting mum, I think. I think so, yeah. Out of the three of us. Unless there's anyone else. No.

Just busted under the table. This is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good, it is the bad. And the relatable. And if you've come for advice, Jessie, we do not give it. Not from Ash and myself. However, you are a very intelligent person, far superior than us simple-minded dads on this side.

So you, I'm sure, please, I hope, will give advice. If you've got any, no pressure. Well, I've had Ash on a podcast I did before, giving us advice. Which one was that? It was called The Baby Bubble. I forgot the name for a second there. Yeah. And we had Ashlyn.

I'm sure you gave us some advice. You were very wise. Actually, no, you talked about having a vasectomy. Remember that? We asked you all the details about your vasectomy. It was very enlightening. Thank you for asking me many questions about my penis and testicles.

I really appreciate it. Did you? Fuck the lawyers will be annoyed. Did you give advice on that episode? No, nothing real. Jesse, did he? I think we knew he wasn't an advice guy. No. Thanks, thanks for having me on.

No. And we always start off going back to what you were like as a teenager, and I dare say that I think you would have been someone who would have been like a Ducks of the school. I was gonna pick that too, actually. Yeah. I do not come across as a Ducks of the school. I was going to pick that too actually. Yeah. I do not come across as a Ducks of the school.

School captain? No, I was a house captain. What's a house captain? A house captain. Sports house captain? Yeah, like that. Clare and I were house captain of Yellow House. Yellow.

I know, I didn't feel, Yellow didn't have the same vibe as... Was it called Yellow? No, it was called a Saint's name because we went to a Catholic school. So it was all Saints. What's the we went to a Catholic school. Ah. So it's all saints. What's the saint of yellow? Peroton. Oh.

Like Zoltan. Zoltan. We have, ours are named after different birds. Like, like, uh. Crow. Magpie. No. Cookabye.

Like, Rosella is red. Okay. Laura Key. Seagull? No, I don't know. Anyway, I can't remember the other ones. Miles' Mitchell house. What colour were you in?

Red. I knew it. I was going to say you were in red. I was red. You just have red energy because red always wins. Red is the fastest. Yeah, red is the fastest. Yeah.

No, I was yellow house captain and I was, I was alright, but then in about year 11, I thought I would try really hard because I'm really, really competitive and I hate losing. So I was like, okay, I'm going to try my absolute best. And I did, and I ended up being Ducks of my school. My school wasn't selective or anything.

Picked it. Nailed it. I knew it was terrible. I actually knew that. I thought it. I knew it was terrible. I thought you knew that. I thought that you somehow knew that. No. I was ducks of my school and second in my year. One guess.

This is the first prediction we've ever got right. No, we're always quiet. What's your prediction for who got second in my year? Your sister. Yeah. She came second. We are. We're actually doing our own research.

I didn't know this was a psychic podcast. That was very exciting. Who spearheaded the decision to like, now we knuckle down? I think it was some twin telepathy shit where we just looked at each other and we were like, let's beat these bitches. Let's just, we'll come together as a team. We just studied really hard.

And I ended up, I did extension history and I came first in the state for extension history and Claire came fifth. So we just put our heads down and we're like, yeah. Question. Yeah. All girls school. Yeah.

Okay. Current debate in our family. Co-ed or girls thoughts? My mum taught at a co-ed for years and years. Dad teaches it in all boys. I think co-ed's better, better for you. Like I, I'd like to send my daughter to a co-ed, but the thing about our school was that it was very kind of, it was a Catholic school, but the schools around us were very private. So a lot of the private boys schools, you know, our Woolwich, which is in like, Hunters Hill, Hunters Hill. Yeah, but they were all the fancy boys schools and they all had their tutors and their, you know, fancy applications to go to Cambridge or Oxford

and that was not our school. Our school was just, you know, it was actually more sporty, which I wasn't necessarily good at. But yes, Claire and I actually put our head down and then went to uni and got a rich shot. Did you ever get in trouble at school and blame your twin? Yes. Okay, perfect.

Yes, absolutely. Go on. We did some, we definitely did some swapping and- Excuse me? Swapping, yes, because we're identical. But the best trick was that we played doubles tennis, right? And I am deathly competitive, but I can't serve to save my life. And I am deathly competitive, but I can't serve to save my life.

So we would do a little, a sneaky little between games, just a little dance. And Claire just served every time. Like I never served. Would you wear the same outfit? Yeah, identical outfit. It's just white, isn't it? Very- Same, same hair, same everything. And no one knew.

Wow. You never did anything like, hey, you're much better at ancient history. So we're going to, I'll take that test for you. No. You can't admit to this kind of stuff. This is very incriminating. You could have just pretended to be one student going to school half part time. And gone really, really well.

We used to do that. We worked at a golf club for years together and they, the golfers would think we were one really efficient worker. When really we were two shit workers that were usually on the phone like on our phone out the back but they were like you're everywhere i was like no there's two of us how good this is very very good you did very well at school i'm assuming did very well at university and not that well at university yeah she's being modest being honest you end up working at mamma mia yep which i have to congratulate on all the amazing work that you have done because

I'm Mia. Which I have to congratulate on all the amazing work that you have done. Because it is astounding. It's a very fun job, very fun. I want to talk about your now husband, Luca. Do you remember the moment that he stepped into the office and you locked eyes with him? Yes, I remember him starting and there were a few whispers

because we knew that it was our boss. And at that time it was was Mia was my boss. And I worked closely with her because I was doing a podcast with her once a week. And husband Jason was a CEO. So literally, Mia and Jason were my bosses. And then their son came in because he was really lost. He'd finished school, didn't know what he was doing, and came in just for a bit of work experience

or whatever. And we were like, oh, we're gonna have to train him. And my thing was like, he's gonna dob on me when I'm wasting time. Like, if I check my phone, he's gonna tell his parents that I'm actually being a bit lazy. And so we all were on our best behavior around him. But I remember he walked in and it was like, hi. And then we sort of trained him up in a few things. And then before we knew it, like- Was he good? Was he- Yeah, yeah, he was really, and that's the thing.

I think we all had a little bit of an assumption about maybe he was gonna be entitled and maybe he was gonna walk in and think he didn't have to do any of the hard work. What surprised us was that he was humble, he was quiet and he was really, really hardworking. So he was very, very smart and had, you know, gone so well at school and was a great writer. Like he was a really, really good writer. So I remember working with him on that. And then

we would go and get drinks on like a Friday night or whatever after work. And one of the, my boss said, he likes someone in this office, but I don't know who it is. Cause I don't know why he's gone. Like he's excited for drinks. Like cause he would- That was the giveaway.

Yeah, that was the giveaway. Is it'd be like, are we getting drinks tonight? And I was like, oh, look who's keen on drinks. And so we thought it was, we thought it was somebody else. I was just like, yeah, I think he likes Katie. I reckon he likes Katie. Joke's on you, Katie. The civil is doing. Katie was already taken. So I think he likes Katie. I reckon he likes Katie. Jokes on you, Katie. Just if you're listening.

Katie was already taken, so I think he had to go for the next. Still. At this point, any romantic sparks internally? No, no. Has anyone said, could pick up on it? No, we were just really good friends. And I think we started actually recording a podcast and he might've been producing it at the time. And he really, I remember friends and I think we started actually recording a podcast and he might have been producing it at the time and he really, I remember Claire

and I were writing recouts at the time it was probably about your season of The Bachelor. Oh god I'm sorry. Lots of crying in that season. Zooming in on your face and Luca would always read it he'd come in and be like I really liked it I thought it was funny when you said this this and this like he just liked our work you know we'd come in and be like, I really liked it. I thought it was funny when you said this, this and this. Like he just liked our work. You know, we turn up and pitch every morning. And you know how when you're at work, you can't pretend to be someone like you are just yourself. It's not like on a Friday or Saturday night when you can, you're going out to dinner and you put on a bit of a persona. So we got really close and really friendly. And he really liked True Crying Podcasts. And we'd always share them. So it was just very, very friendly and very slow after over months and months. And we'd even hang out on the weekend and stuff. And it was like myself, my twin sister and him, like the three of us were really, really close. Then I think we started hanging out more just us. And that's when it got a bit closer.

What was the moment where you thought, oh, my goodness, he's not just a friend. I think I might like this guy. I remember we went to a friend's, like, farewell and we were there that night and there was just a vibe and I thought, I think like I am feeling a bit of a vibe and then I thought, are you leaning into this because you think it's risky? Like is it a bit fun? It's exciting. It's exciting.

I'm excited. Cause you know you shouldn't. Cause you know you shouldn't right? Yeah, totally. And you're like, it's a good story. It's like being told not to jump over the edge of something. You kind of, and so I was going- You're playing with fireworks.

It might explode and be beautiful. You might lose a hand. I don't know. Yeah, exactly. Like you have no idea, both hands, who knows? And so when I started feeling that, Claire said to me, you know, be really careful because this could backfire. We've worked really hard to be here. And then if you're dating the boss's son, something goes wrong.

Claire's like, your sister's like, fuck, put the fireworks down. Claire is just not into it at all. Whereas Luca, Luca eventually, I think he called, I remember him saying something like, oh, I like someone in the office and like he did this whole thing and then he was like, it's you. And I was just so cute. And then we- Young love. Young love. And then I wrote, this is so weird, but like he came over for the first time we watched some really graphic, awful true crime documentary, but that was like our love language was watching these revolting documentaries.

Once we started seeing each other, it just kind of went from there. I think he's a very, he didn't want to waste anyone's time and he's, and everyone who knows him is like, he's not, you know, he seems so much older than he is. And I think that's why when he started hanging out with my friends, it wasn't weird. Cause he was just, he fit in seamlessly. He is about six years younger than you. Yeah, I mean, he was the eldest child, you know,

had two parents who worked a lot, lots of independence, understood media very well. Like I don't think he was, he's always been an old, old man, like more mature than I am. Had you dated anyone younger? No, and I wouldn't, even if I would, I would have been on all the apps at that stage,

I wouldn't have dated anyone one year younger than me. Like I would have had all my dating apps set to my age or older. Because? I guess there's just a bit of a taboo about it. And I just thought, oh, we'd be in a different stage and we wouldn't have anything in common. Do you think because you were friends first that it really helped? Yeah. I think that that made a difference and that I kind of went,

if you're not going to do it because you're worried about what people are going to think, I don't think anyone is actually thinking about you that much. And you could have missed out on something amazing. Yeah. And there was someone I out on something amazing. Yeah. There was someone I worked with who was maybe in her 40s, and her husband was six or seven years younger. And she talked about it sometimes, and I just went, this is actually happening all the time.

Like, there are age gaps all the time. The older you get, the less you feel the gap as well. So now he's in his late 20s, and I'm in my mid 30s. Like, it doesn't, you don't feel it. Yeah, when you're younger, you're like, what am I going to think about that? Yeah, and my mates as well in their mid 20s, they wouldn't have batted an eyelid at dating a 20 year old.

Like as in my male friends. I think that that's not stigmatized. But for women, the idea of dating someone younger, just, I don't know. There's there's definitely a stigma. Do you think as well, like, because we always talk about how girls mature faster than men, the expectation is that you want someone as at your maturity level. But if you were friends with him.

I think the other thing is babies. I think that it's like, if you are thinking about having kids one day, then there's a risk in going for a man who's younger than you, because it's like by the time you're ready and then you're getting older and older and if he's not ready till he's in his mid-30s and you want to start then, then that's a complication. But I mean the irony of that is that I know many men in their mid to late 30s who aren't ready. Like I don't think it's as age dependent. I know men in their 40s who still aren't ready.

Yeah. 40s young, Matt. 40s young. You're not ready and you've got two. Yeah, I'm definitely not ready. I'm not ready to have any. Did you guys have a game plan in terms of when you guys did cross that line, you have a relationship for a period,

I'm assuming it would have been secretive. Yeah. Did you say, this is the point that we will then announce it? Because obviously you don't want to announce it, I think you guys break up and you're like, fuck, we went through all of that for nothing. And I think Lucas has a cautiousness because of what he's grown up with.

Him having a mom who has a bit of a profile, I think that he's just very kind of reserved. And so we didn't want to talk about it at the office and we went, well, it's not relevant. And weirdly our work doesn't really have a policy because it's mostly women. This is not an issue that they've had because there's not a lot of men to,

and every man who doesn't to the office leaves either married or engaged to someone in the office. In the office. So it's the perfect place. Is there any single men right now who are struggling? Go and apply, I don't know, Mayor. But I remember we were at a cafe like early one morning before work and someone from sales,

and I love her, but she saw us and she saw Luca lean over and kiss her. And she ran into the office and was like, I have just seen something. And she was yelling it, like announcing it to her team. And one of the girls in my in her team is one of my best friends from school. So she's sitting there going, fuck, fuck, fuck, because she did know. And she was sitting there and she goes, Luca just does that to people.

He's a very affectionate person and he kisses me on the head. And everyone was like, really? It doesn't sound right. It was like, I gotta go straight to HR. Yeah, exactly. Listen to everyone. So then from that moment,

because I'm assuming your friend told you? Yes, she told me. And so there were whispers. And then we kind of went, all right, we should. I think people in the team started to know. And then it probably caused a few issues because there were people going, you know, is there going to be priority for her or like? You can start doing half days and. Yeah, exactly right. I would. I would.

Or like say I'd pitch a story or something and then that story got greenlit then it was sort of like well of course her story was greenlit I think she's dating this yeah the boss's son like there was definitely an element of that which ended up being ignored like sort of nipped in the bud and I think that they were they were different there was a Melbourne office and there was a Sydney office and I think there were assumptions about what was happening and it wasn't necessarily happening. But Luca and I just went, all right,

we put our heads down and we work hard and no one can take that away from you. Like if you do good work, then the work speaks for itself. Like you're not gonna convince people to think something else. Do you remember the moment you had to tell Mia? So sort of we were, we were hanging out on the weekend and I remember we went to the beach and then Luca was like, let's go and get some towels because we'd forgotten towels.

Let's go to my house and get towels. And I was like, oh, you're so... What the? You were going to the beach and you forgot towels? I feel like we'd been at my house. I had my cosy and maybe I didn't have a towel. That sounds like something I would forget. But all of a sudden, like, Luca, come on, dude,

you're a smart guy. We're not going to get to a lot. Go to your house on the weekend and get a towel. Exactly. And then he was like, no, no, I don't think my parents are there. And I was like, all right, his parents aren't there. I walk in and his parents are there.

God, I've got anxiety consistency. I walk in, there's my boss. I'm standing there wanting a towel, hanging out with Luca, going, hmm, this is, I feel like I'm going to run here. Is there anywhere I can put my bathing suit on? And so I think from that moment, I remember speaking to Mia on the phone and her saying, this is not going to cost you a job.

Like, but don't break my son's heart. Like you've got your position here. You got your role on the podcast. If you and Luca break up tomorrow, you're not going to lose your job. Don't worry about that. Don't've got your position here. You've got your role on the podcast. If you and Luca break up tomorrow, you're not going to lose your job. Don't worry about that. Don't let that be a factor. Yeah, hopefully she wasn't gaslighting. Yeah, well, we don't know, do we?

No, we've not. Because I never dumped him. Yet. Yet. Yet. Yet. Did it have any impact, the letter that Mia had openly written about how tough it was as a mom to say goodbye to your son?

Had that played on you at all? It was funny because I think that she talked about that on the podcast. about how tough it was as a mum to say goodbye to your son. Had that played on you at all? It was funny because I think that she talked about that on the podcast and it's always funny because I'm sitting there like, or we've been on the podcast and she's cried because she's like, my son's moving out. And I'm like, with me.

It's like a weird dynamic. Sometimes we talk about relationships or sex things and it's just sitting there with your mother-in-law and you're like, can't relate. It's just like, it's the weirdest, it's the weirdest dynamic, but for some reason it totally works. So we've just been really, really honest about it.

And I know that she had a lot of big feelings even when I was pregnant, like she was gonna become a grandmother. And she's quiet, she's only in her early 50s. So for her, she's like, I'm not ready to become a grandmother. And that's like, and she's quiet. She's only in her early fifties. So for her, she's like, I'm not ready to be a nana. I'm like, I'm going to be a mom. Like it's, yeah, very interesting to not out at work. So then who spearhead the conversation about when you

would have or when you would try for kids? Well, I was, I would have been happy years before Luca and we would talk about it and go, all right, let's say I'm ready at 30 and he's going, I'd like to wait a couple more years. We'd go, all right, let's start trying at 31 or whatever. And then of course you get to 31, you've got a few things on and then you get to, and then he proposed when we were overseas, which was really exciting. He would have been one of the first in his friendship groups to propose. Can we have the proposal story quickly?

Oh, yes. Yes. We were in Martha's Vineyard and we were walking along a beach and Rory, Luca was like, let's get a photo, which was a, he's never wanted a photo in his whole life. And I was like, yeah, give away. And Rory, Claire's husband, was holding the phone. And then Luca knelt down, and I was like, what are you doing?

And then realized that he was filming it and that it was a proposal. But I'd had a few days before I'd picked up his jacket because it had got a bit cold and put my hands in the pocket and thought I felt some AirPods, took my hand straight back out. But then when Luca saw me wearing the jacket, he lost his shit and was like, don't take my jacket.

I was like, whoa. Don't touch my feet. I should break up with him. He's really toxic. And it turns out that was the ring and I just didn't notice. That's tough. Jesus. So yeah.

And then we were engaged and fell pregnant accidentally. And I discovered one evening when he was out and he walked in and I had like half a block of chocolate in my mouth and the pregnancy test just sitting there and he was like, ah, uh oh. Wow. So it was a bit, because I think we had a wedding date set. I was writing a book, you know, we were renting a tiny apartment. It was

just like, is this the right time? Yeah, it was like a shock. But in the moment, we both knew that it was going to be the right time. But it was a real shock. You go through some really complicated emotions when it's a shock, I think, just like it's not as simple as excitement, you kind of have to recalibrate what the rest of your life looks like in an, in an hour. Yeah. Yeah. Confronting. Do you remember the time you broke it to Mia that she was going to be your

grandmother? I had actually, we were doing a tour of Out Loud when I was about eight weeks pregnant. So I wasn't telling anyone yet, but we went to dinner after one of the shows and there was wine and Mia tried to pour me a glass and I said, no, I don't feel like it. And she said, what are you pregnant? And I was like, I can't tell you now that you're a grandmother.

What's your poker face like? I was like, no, I'm just not feeling well. Fill it up to the top. You shouldn't ask women that. And then a few weeks later, I think that we did it with... Maybe it was Mother's Day, maybe it was something, and we gave her a card. And it was like, we gave her a card for something,

and she didn't open it straight away, and we were going, we think you should open your card. And then she read it, and it must have said, um, to Nana or something like that. Like it had something on it. And I just remember her face being like, oh my God. Like it was such a shock to her and Jason. Like they were not expecting that.

Because I think when the wedding was happening, it was like you were assuming it was gonna happen afterwards. And they were both like, oh my God, what the hell. So yeah. You've spoken quite a lot about the fact that pregnancy for you was quite difficult. For those who aren't familiar, why was it so tough? Oh, it was a shit, shit time.

I got, I didn't know this, but if you are on anti-anxiety or antidepressants, really any medication, then during pregnancy, your blood volume increases and it dilutes any medication that you're on. So suddenly it was like I wasn't on anything. So I've been on anti-anxiety medication for 10 years. And it was like I'd gone off that cold turkey.

So I was probably from, I'd say the second I fell pregnant, I just did not feel like myself. I felt really weird. I felt foggy. I felt anxious. I couldn't see the future. And then it got worse and worse. And I think that there were also environmental factors. I was working too hard in that I felt as though my life ended when that baby came out. I thought, you'll never work again. You've got till that date to do everything you've ever wanted to do in your career. So I was finishing

a book, I was writing an episode of a television show, I was recording five podcasts, six podcasts a week, I was going to Melbourne every week for the project. It was out of control. We did two episodes a week and we're exhausted. Flat out. I look back and go, I was flying at 36 weeks pregnant to Melbourne for a day. You're not meant to be flying. Yeah, exactly right. I should have been flying.

You are not meant to be flying at that time. I'm wondering why my body was just, and I got married, moved house, all of those things while pregnant. And I just tried to fit too much in and it completely burnt out and I was oh it was like I was underwater I was in a dream I couldn't feel anything I was totally numb. Were you communicating this to Luke or anybody else? Yeah he ended up actually contacting my obstetrician and midwife and just being like we can use to date her. We do something about this problem in the house.

And they were fantastic. And I saw a really good psychiatrist who, that was the other thing, is that from about six months, I didn't sleep and not like I had sore hips, like I didn't sleep. It would be four days and I'd be like, that's the fourth night of no sleep. What was it that was stopping you from sleeping,

do you think? It was pregnancy insomnia. It was hormonal. So it was like my brain could not switch off. And I started hallucinating. I would like get up and be like, I can't drive to work. It's like I'm drunk. Like I can't even stand up right. So that was awful.

And the second the baby came out, I could sleep. Like I slept better in the postpartum period than I had in four or five months. Before we talk about birth, when you saw the psychologist, you're still pregnant. Was there any advice or was anything that you opened up about? Yeah, he said, and I thought this was really helpful,

that the rates of people acknowledging they're not feeling right in pregnancy and addressing it, and then them avoiding postnatal depression are really high. Like as in, it's the best thing you can do. Flag it as early as you can. Even if in the first trimester you're like, oh, I'm not feeling like myself, I'm feeling really anxious. And a lot of people say I cried every day during pregnancy.

Like, go and speak to someone about that. Because a lot of women, I would assume day during pregnancy, like go and speak to someone about that. Cause a lot of women, I would assume early on in their pregnancy would just think, okay, this is just part of it, right? Instead of going, okay, there's actually something not right. Yes, and then what often happens is that they're actually signs that can then lead to postnatal depression.

And if it's untreated, then you can wake up a year later and go, oh, I just lost a year with my baby. Yeah. Like, cause I just felt like shit. And none of that, that cloud, it was like a cloud and like exciting, amazing things would happen. And it was like, I just couldn't, I couldn't touch it. I couldn't access it.

I could have won the lottery and I would have been like, can't muster a feeling about that. You just felt like you couldn't connect with anything. Yeah, yeah. Really like, and I thought, right. Did it help? Like, did you lighten your workload? Did that help at all?

No, I didn't. It would have though. Well, it's like a beautiful thing. You should be a psychologist. No, what helped was increasing the dosage of medication was definitely good. And he gave me sleeping aids because the issue is that

they are very reluctant to give you anything that'll help you sleep in case it impacts the baby. But good psychiatrists have all the research and they know what's worth it because yeah, it's not safe to have a pregnant woman walking around who hasn't slept. It's not good for anyone. So he was fantastic and really prepared me

for that next kind of trimester. Were you more anxious about then getting baby out or were you looking forward to just closing that chapter on being pregnant? I was really anxious because I was terrified about childbirth, so scared and thinking that I'd had a really traumatic pain experience about 18 months before where I'd broken my leg and had been stuck in the Northern Territory with no pain relief for like eight hours. And had this thing of, I can't be stuck in pain.

Like if I'm stuck and I can't have respite, then I'll freak. But I worked like really hard on that with like a physio and my obstetrician had a full plan. So a full birth plan? Yeah, had a plan and the obstetrician said I think you should try for natural and see how it goes. And so, but the issue though was that I didn't think it would be relief after I was so terrified for, I thought I'd still be stuck in this space and that the birth might go really badly.

And then I'm not sleeping still. I definitely wasn't feeling hopeful. You didn't feel like there was any light at the end of the tunnel? No, definitely not. I mean already like as parents or to be parents you're like okay well what's going to happen next? There's always that what's going to happen next. And all I saw and I don't know if it's like an algorithm thing but literally all I saw was negativity. And I remember reaching out to Laura and saying, thank you for saying something positive. Like I just saw her saying something about motherhood that was somewhat positive.

And I was like, you have no idea how important it is for people to see role models and like people on the other side who are not only talking about what hell it is, because pregnant women are not okay. Pregnant women are walking around uncomfortable and tired, being told that they're about to enter hell. Like that's not good. Yeah, for sure. How did you make sure that after the birth of Luna,

you didn't get burnt out again? I had decided to take a maternity leave and in my head it was like, I'll need a month and I'll get back. And in fact it was Mia and it was Holly, my co-host who just went, every woman does this. Every woman thinks that they will need a month and that you don't, you need more.

You like take as much as you need, but actually don't lock it in. Like say you're gonna take three or four months and then if you need six, if you need 12, then just go with it. I had a book that was due. Of course you did. Sorry. I think I finished it at about 36 weeks.

Something like that. Anyway, it came out when I was five weeks postpartum. So I did Q&A and I did the project and I did a morning television thing. I'm no memory of any of it, but I actually felt fucking amazing. I felt like I was on ecstasy. Like I felt high.

It was great. Because of the book? No, no, no, no, no. I was sleeping. Yes. Like I might've only been sleeping four hours a night. But I was like, I got to sleep last night and I, and it was deep sleep and I felt like myself again.

And this fog, this grayness had just immediately lifted. Like when I gave birth to Luna, it was immediate. It just lifted, it left the room and I haven't seen it since. Wow. It was like, unbelievable, unbelievable. Because the labor itself was like 62 hours. I didn't sleep for three or four nights. I was a mess. But when she came out, I just had all of that. And I was, I deserved some good luck. So I'm going to like own that. But like I had the come out life changing, see the universe, brain changing.

I had all of that, like total euphoria. It was fantastic. Wow. It was so good. And even the birth, like it was great. 62 hours, it was great. I was tired, but the aperture worked. And I pushed her out and it was,

and then I pulled her out. That's right. He got me to put my arms under like her arms and pull her out. And it was amazing. And just seeing her silly little eyes was just like, you have a face. You have a face with features on it.

Like. What sort of baby was she? You know what? I loved it, but I look at like, especially those early things and it was hard. Like she had like a dairy intolerance, so that was really hard. So, but she would sleep even if it was for two hours at a time. And as I've understood it, there are a lot of people who don't get that.

That's when you go insane. So she would sleep pretty consistently, like two hours, wake up two hours, whatever. And then I would just sleep in. Someone said to me, the trick is to never get out of bed. And it's so true. Just ever? I love that. Two p.m.

It's like when you've got a newborn and they get up at seven, and I see people get up and put their clothes on, I'm like, no bitch, we're going back to bed. We're still in there. Get back in bed. Get in bed, put them in the cot, you're going back to bed. Yeah, going bedrock.

Yeah, exactly. Bedrock's the best. Bedrock's the best. And when you've got one, you can do to bed. Yeah, go and bedrock. Yeah, exactly. Bedrock's the best. Bedrock's awesome. And when you've got one, you can do it. With two, I imagine that that's a bit harder. But with one, it's like... You find ways to bedrock when you've got two. Wow, it's great.

But she's a very placid baby. She was very placid and quite calm. And we just went for lots of walks and stuff. But yeah, the dairy thing was really hard because it was, oh, and we had failure to thrive issues putting on weight. What's failure to thrive? Failure to thrive is when, you know,

how they leave a certain weight and then they need them to put on what they, yeah. So she was a little-ish, not that little, she just would not put on weight. And I would be feeding her 10, 12 times a day and we'd go back and they'd be like, she's lost 70 grams. And that happened week after week. And I was like, study her for like some ozempic shit because her metabolism, there is some gene here that you can clone.

Did they know what it was? They still don't really. I, she was refluxy, like she was a bit vomity, but I'm like, I think she just has a fabulous metabolism. People learn. When she's like, oh yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, yeah, I think she just has a fabulous metallic. Keep on that. When she's all like, you're welcome. Yeah, I wish I had a metallic. And I think I was trying to feed and trying to feed.

And then a lot of people just said, look, do the formula. We had issues with that because of the dairy thing. But once we got onto the rice milk situation, then she started to put on weight. Once you figure out the dairy thing, they're like, yeah. And once you can go, all right, I think we've worked it out. She's on this particular formula. And we did a bit of mixed feeding.

I think I fed for five or six months, breastfed. And then once she was on that, got a lot easier. Yeah, they get chunky pretty quick too. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You talk about that fear of, there is no greater hindrance to your career than starting a family. Now that you've been through that,

those fears that you once had, how do you view them? What no one tells you is that what you want will change. And that's what I can't have anticipated or expected. It's like I kept looking at people and going, where's she disappeared to? Where's he disappeared to after having a family and thinking, oh, they fell out of relevance or something. And now actually having spoken to those people and knowing them, it's like they didn't want to do it anymore. Like they just by their own volition went, I want

my life to look different. And so yeah, I think I thought that opportunities would dry up. And that's not necessarily happened. And it's such a small, it's actually a way shorter period in the scheme of things. You think it's going to feel like forever. But people at work go on maternity leave all the time. I swear it's two weeks later they walk back in and I'm like, I don't even remember you being gone. I think over two years.

Exactly right, about eight children. I'm like, I don't even remember you being gone. I think over two years. Eight children. I'm like, wow. Like it is quicker than you think. And it's a reshuffling of your priorities. But I actually think that's a brilliant thing. Have your priorities shifted? Oh, yeah. In what way? They needed to.

Like I look at who I was during pregnancy, totally unsustainable, probably not good value to my family or sister or parents or husband, they needed to shift. Because it's like, if I bite off more than I can chew, I am, I'm just shit. I go to jobs even. It's like, I think this at work, we have these, you know, brilliant producers and brilliant team.

If I can't turn up and be in a great mood for those people, then don't turn up. Like, and it was, I think you can get a bit of a, like almost a victim mentality of being like, I'm so busy. It makes you very entitled. That's no one's fault, but your own. You bit off more than you can chew and now you're tired and you're irritable. So I feel as though I've gotten a lot better at prioritizing. There's definitely been things I've said no to, which I've felt a little bit sad about, but maybe for two minutes and then I get on with it. Yeah. Like with parenting, you mentioned there that your wants change. Yeah.

The things you want change. Yeah. And like also the things you're willing to sacrifice change, right? Yes. Because like you think before you had kids and someone would bring something to you and you would, you wouldn't sacrifice that for anything at that stage until you've got, oh hang on a minute, I've got a kid here and I'm quite happy to sacrifice that now for this. Yes, so the big one for me is travel because it's like I travel for certain TV stuff or podcast touring or even book festivals. There's a lot of travel. I could travel heaps if I wanted to. And now

I just look at it and I look at it in my diary and go, it's just not worth it. And it's not like I actually don't when I am away from Luna for a prolonged period of time, I'm not my best self and I miss her too much. It's for me. It's a selfish thing. It's not even that I'm doing it for her, she'll be fine. It's me that will feel sad about that. You talked about your family, just the way things worked out. You and your sister were pregnant at pretty similar times.

Was that helpful or more of a hindrance? It was really good. So I fell pregnant by accident and then she got married in the February. I got married in the March. And then I was six months pregnant and Claire kept saying that she had a wedding present to give me.

And I was like, this was after March. So maybe May. She kept saying, I've got a wedding present to give you, which is weird because we don't give each other presents. And then we're in the car and she's like here. And she gave me a box and I opened it and it was a pregnancy test. And I was like, a positive pregnancy pregnancy test and I was like, how did you get my pregnancy test? And she said, that's not your pregnancy test, that's my pregnancy test.

And I was like, oh, I see. So I was about six months ahead of her. Okay. It was amazing. It was like, it was great for even maternity clothes, could just all go to class. Yeah, I love that. I'm so glad my birth was great and straightforward. Yep. Because she saw that and had not a single fear and her birth was fucked. So it could have been the other way around. And she'd seen that and then she'd like, I think that would have screwed us around. Yeah, for sure. But everything from like toys to solids,

like all the things that you learn to have, you know, five or six months between the girls has just been heaven. Have either of the kids mistaken you for the other? There is a comfort that each of them have that's like unlike with anyone else. Like Matilda was, her daughter was with me yesterday and the way that she just like reaches up to me, she knows I'm not her mum, but she knows I'm a poor imitation and sometimes that'll do.

She's like, you look like her, you have the same colouring. I clearly don't smell the same or whatever, but she's like, you'll do. And they both have that. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

Who was the better mum? Me. That would be me. Who is the better mom? Me. That would be me. Who has a better behaved child? What's funny is that Claire and I, so identical twins, those girls are technically half sisters, genetically. Because it is like one person had a baby with one guy and then that same person had a baby

with another guy. Does that make sense? Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I... Yeah, don't worry. Forget about Ash. It's all you see. Jesse, I'm in.

I'm locked in. So the girls are half sisters, technically, but they could not be more different. Like they are total officers. I'm so lost right now. OK, so imagine your wife. Jesse, forget him. He's gone. Leave me behind, Jesse. Leave me behind.

He's just podcast off just you and me. Alright, I'll just sit here and shut up. I'll work it out. But it's just such a great example of like, you introduce food exactly the same way. You do exactly the same sleep schedule. You parent them exactly the same way. And guess what? They're their own people.

Parenting doesn't even matter. They come out how they come out and they just do their own thing. That's what we've seen. One of the biggest steps, I think, with a young child is your first overseas trip. Was it, you took the first trip? We went together.

So we had a wedding in Ireland. And of course we got mum and dad to come to come and help us out. That's a long way. It is a long way. You have no idea how long those. How many months was Luna at this point? She was 11 months.

Theory, worst age. Remind me, cause it's all blur. Are they crawling at 11 months? They are. Crawling, but not walking. Yeah, that's, they're mobile. They're mobile. There's a lot of sliding.

Yeah, yep. Can't lock into the wiggles yet. Yes, that's their mobile. Their mobile. There's a lot of sliding. Yeah, yep. Can't lock into the wiggles yet. Yes. That's the issue. So they can move. They're not having, like they're awake for too long. They can't be distracted fully by screens. So weird no man's land.

Yes, of hell. So we went over there. We just made so many errors. You just don't know what you don't know. First error, moving around too much. You shouldn't move around too much. Lock in. You just got to stay there. We did Ireland. Well, three different places in Ireland. Then why not go to the south of France? Of course.

Why not? Let's go on, fine. Yeah. Have you guys ever thought about Contiki? Yeah. We did do Contiki. It was 11 months old. I know, let's go on fine. Have you guys ever thought about contiki? Yeah, we did a contiki last week. It's 11 months old. 20? 20? Yeah, that's great.

So that was really hard. Time, like the time zone, the feeling of being in Ireland and having a baby wake up at 3 a.m. And you know the look in their eye where they go, the day's begun. And you're like, no, no, no, it hasn't, no it hasn't. And then it gets to 4 p.m. that day and you're like, no, no, no, it hasn't. No, it hasn't. And then it gets to 4pm that day and you're like, holy shit. I'm in Ireland.

I'm in a pub. I don't know which way's up. And your baby's so angry. I actually think Claire's age, five months, perfect. Perfect day to take baby to Ireland. Also like breastfeeding still. Yes. Yes. Makes it a lot easier. Carrier isn't crawling, but everywhere you go to sit down for, Luna's not sitting in a high chair having some lunch. She's like, I want to crawl and get into that fountain. And I'm like, no, we're in, this can't happen. I hate to gloat.

So just bear with me for a second. Marley was just gone three months and we went to London. It's pretty good. Genius. This is what everyone says. Sorry, sorry. No, no, no. This is a hack.

This is a hack. You've got to do it before about, I reckon five or six months. Yeah, I met this couple in Bali once before I had kids and they had a five month old kid and he was like the best. He's like, because on the boob, Yep. It's like not mobile.

The Balinese women love this kid. So you're like, go sit down at a restaurant, give it to a Balinese, have your food, then give it back. Balinese person's walking fast. This is no idea. Just any old Balinese person. I think the biggest thing I hate about travelling with kids, or now not so much, because I mean, they're just,

they do want to get up and run around. It is what it you expect that the worst thing was traveling with them young and then when you get to the end of the travel before you've traveled home and you're like I'm in a different country with this child and now I've got to get it all the way home. How is this going to happen? Because the way it worked is we did that trip and then Luca had to go back early for work and I had to do the flight from the south of France to Sydney with an 11 month old on my own. That is the single hardest thing I've ever done. It was, she, I just, at one point I just took her into the bathroom and we just sat in the bathroom and cried.

I was like, I just need to cry in private. But I was changing her nappy and for whatever reason, I had my period, tried changing a tampon with an 11 month old on your hip, because you can't put him down. No one else is gonna take her. So I'm like, I'll put you on the floor. I've never done that myself.

Me either. But I wouldn't put him down on an airplane bathroom floor. Pick up things that literally like are in the quarantine zone. Yeah, well, even I was trying to get something out of overhead. And you know you do weird shit when you're on your own, you're sleep deprived. So I was getting something out and I think I put her on the thing of like the floor of the plane. The wing.

Yeah, the wing. I put her on the wing. And was like, she'll be right. And then this man walked in, travelling on his own and goes, well, now she's got every illness. And I was like, do you want to fucking hold her? Like, I only have so many arms. I'm trying to get her bottle or she's going to scream this plane down.

What a fucking... Like, I just, I was like, it's good for her immune system. No. Yeah. It was... Just spit on it, mate. LAUGHTER It was so, it was so hard. And then, because obviously they don't even have their own seats, so they're just on the... Yeah,. So they're just on for 24 hours.

So that was really bonding. I always always talk about, I think you feel the same Ash, that the newborn phase is so blurry. I can't really remember. In the first 12 months, this is a hard question to answer. First 12 months, what is the best part? If you can remember if anything sticks out. And what is the worst part? The best part is the can remember if anything sticks out and what is the worst part?

The best part is the slowness. I loved the slowness of like getting up in the morning and like making coffee and then just sitting there and just watching. I remember the first time I watched her watch something else. Like you watch her discover a shadow and you just feel like I could watch you. I'm getting it back now. Oh it's amazing. Or even at night. A bird flying past. Yeah, a plane and they're like, plane. And they do like their little point.

Yeah. Or even at night, I would get her up for like, she'd be up for a feed and you'd turn a lamp on and you could just see her being like, what is that shadow? And like you watch all the synapses connecting. Yeah. Loved it. Especially when it's on the roof.

Yeah. Oh, the moment Luna found a ceiling fan, she just fell in love and she was like, has anyone seen this shit? I'm going to marry that thing. And then you look at it and you're like, it's actually pretty fucking cool. And you just lay there watching things being like. That's delirium I think. Yeah.

It's not right. So that was definitely the best thing. Like the way it makes you look at everything differently, even like you go to the beach and you watch them play with the sand and the water and everything. And you're like, yeah, that's, it's the little thing. Did she eat the sand? Oh yeah, absolutely.

So many firsts. Then they poop the sand. Then they poop the sand and it's like, you didn't eat anything on your plate. No wonder you're hungry. Is there a phase that you look back and you think, Then they poop the sand and it's like, you didn't eat anything on your plate. No wonder you're hungry. Is there a phase that you look back and you think, I would never want to go through that again,

but obviously you may. Like I think about that 11 month stage and that was really hard. Like I think her not being able to walk yet, not being able to properly kind of articulate herself, she's quite a, she's very cautious and risk averse, but she's, clingy is not the right word. But you know, you can't put them down.

Like I find that probably a bit hard, but every stage had its good bits, I think, because you see them developing and yeah. You mentioned they couldn't walk, probably couldn't articulate, they get so frustrated. Yeah. And that, now that you said that, that reminds me of like that time when Oscar couldn't move, couldn't really talk, and he was just frustrated because he wanted

to get up and move. Yeah. But you have your checklist and you're like, are you hungry? Yeah. Is something hurting you? You're not meant to be moving yet. Yeah. Yeah.

And you just, you can't work. There's a, there's a stage where it's like, if they're crying, all they want is milk, really. Yeah. And then there's a stage where you're like, I think you're bored. And like, you can't read. The ceiling fan's on. What do you want? When did you get so complicated?

I don't know how to entertain you. Yeah, because you're like, they either shit themselves, they need to burp, they need to eat, and all of a sudden they go to these other emotions. I found that quite a simple stage, I think. Like, that part was easy. But yeah, you get to a simple stage, I think. Like that part was easy. But yeah, you get to a new stage where the frustrations are new and the grumbling is new

and you're just trying to work it out. This is gonna go back to when you were pregnant. I was just wondering if there was anything in those moments where you were really struggling that Luca did which really helped you? I think that him, when you're in it, sometimes you don't know how bad it is or how dark it is or how clear it is that you're not coping. Having that person do the admin, I would never have sent that email to my

obstetrician and midwife. Like that was him. And then him being like, we're driving you to the appointment and I'm filling that script for you. And like, he was just very on that. And I think he actually at one stage went through my diary and just went, we're not doing this and we're not doing this. And like was really, I was about 35 weeks pregnant

and I got the flu-rona, remember that? Got the flu and COVID. The hybrid, yeah. Yeah, I got the flu rona. Remember that? I got the flu and the COVID. The hybrid, yeah. Yeah, I got the hybrid. And I just remember like, and you're coughing and your ribs are hurting anyway, like it was awful. And that week, like as soon as that happened,

he was like, all right, I'm doing all the admin. Like that's what he's really, really good at. I didn't have to think about any of that. You needed someone to take charge of that, Michael. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't even have the energy to cancel my week. Like he was very, very good like that. Sounds good. Sounds great. Yeah, he is. He's very, very good.

And he's such a, like, to watch his relationship with Luna. Like that's one of the greatest joys. They are best friends. How would you describe him as a dad? He is... We can't imagine him not being a girl dad. Like because that's what he is. And our dog, Chilly, is also a girl. So he's just like, but Luna is him as a child. And he knows, like he'll get up every morning and he'll talk Luna through her day.

Because he's like, I remember lacking this as a kid. I needed to know that what time I had swimming and who was coming to visit that I was gonna have this. And they are identical. Like Luke is a very ordered, tidy person and Luna will go and pick up a wet X and start like just cleaning the floor.

And I'm like, it's- That's great. And sometimes I'll like go upstairs and I've left something at the bottom of the stairs and she'll point at it like, that'll be pissed if you don't bring that. You better get it. Keeping you in check.

She's just, yeah, they're so, so alike. But I think about who I dated in my 20s and had some awful people I dated. But there have been moments at 3 a.m. when the baby's sick or the baby's crying or whatever and I've watched Luca get out of bed and I'm like that's the mark of a good husband. Like were any of those the type of man who would have got out of bed? No. If you just write this down.

Yeah. Get out of bed. Yeah, totally. Like that's to, yeah, the person who will like, you know, drop everything and jump, go to the hospital because we need to or whatever. Like that's been, yeah. And you don't know how someone's going to be as a dad to you. Yeah, and you mentioned Mia was saying, I'm too young to be a grandma now.

How has she adapted? Oh my goodness. Like the best grandma in the world. She is, they have Fridays that they have together. Oh cute. And she has like, she's got her this, like a baby kitchen, like one of those ones where they like make their eggs and stuff.

No real heat. No, no real heat. Just to be clear. Just a stove. They have like their own activities and their own books that they read and like, you know, Mia's very into clothes and I could not, Luna would wear a potato sack every day if we're up to me,

but she comes home in these tutus with like, like just dresses her up and they love it together. Yeah, they're just best mates. It's funny when you see grandparents form their own relationships with your kids. Yeah, and at first you have to be like, oh, she likes this. Yeah.

And then by the end they're telling you and I'm like, oh, I likes this. And then by the end, they're telling you. And I'm like, oh, I didn't know she liked this. Jessi, the tutu today, I think you should go with that one. She loves that one. Yeah. And it's funny when you watch it from the outside looking in, just like the little inside jokes that they have. Yes. And even like, obviously, I met my father-in-law when he was my CEO. Like he was an intimidating, you take him very seriously, highly intelligent man, right?

Like, he is a business guy, very smart. And now I see Luna be like, she calls him butter. I don't know why. Just to, like, insult him. Butter, sit. And he goes and sits. And then the other day she goes, poo-wee-. And like, just to like make fun of him or whatever. And to watch him just piss himself at some of the things she says. And I'm like, there's no one in the world that could speak to him like that. And yet she gets away with it.

Like, she has him tied around her little finger. And it's like the loveliest thing to watch. Because I don't think that men prepare for it like women do. Especially like my dad and my father-in-law had no idea how their lives would change. The grandmothers knew. They were prepared for how much they were going to love these babies. And it's funny with the granddad's how much love there is there, right? And with the no prep and then all of a sudden they've got a grant, especially a granddaughter.

They're like, oh, they just, they turn into a different person. Like I turned into a different person when I had a daughter. And then like I can see my dad with my daughter and it's like, you wouldn't have allowed that. Yeah, exactly. Where is this more coming from? Dad was over the other day, like chasing Luna around. Cause at first they're apprehensive, especially girls, I think around grandfathers, maybe there's a bit, just a bit of apprehension and whatever.

And now Luna's just fallen in love with dad and he was chasing around the house. And then he left and Luna goes, oh man, bye. Oh man, bye. That was just like, I was like, I might not tell dad about the old man comment. Yeah, he probably needs a nap after running around the house. We always end the podcast on a question, which is when Luna is all grown up, she's no longer

living at home. What is the one thing you would want her to remember about the house that she grew up in? Oh, that is such a good question. I think I just, I want her to remember that we had a lot of fun, but most of all, I want her to remember that whoever she was, whoever she was first thing in the morning, or like, you know, when she was two or six or 12,

was just enough. Like her parents loved her regardless of whatever results she brought home from school, whatever she ends up doing with her life. It's like, I remember someone a lot wiser than me once saying this, it's like the world is where you go to challenge yourself and get rejected. Your house is where you go for unconditional love. Like that's where you go, where you go, no matter what I do, what I say, these people love me. And I just want her to feel that.

Like I don't think you can say, I love you enough to a child. And you know, she hears that so much. So I want her to just go into the world with that confidence and then take the risks outside. I love that. Very good answer. Jessie, thank you so much for jumping in the pod outside. Very good answer. Jesse, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you for having me. And I do have to say, because we will give you a great spiel at the intro, it's amazing what you've achieved in media. So a huge well done from Ash and myself. And also for being such an amazing mum. Thank you. You know what I love more than anything? Office romance.

Yes. I love it. Why are your pants on? Also, it's nice to talk to someone who is just so intelligent. You're like, what do you mean? What about me? You're very smart, but I mean, hey,

none of us went to university. Did you finish school yeah no no you didn't yeah there you go we didn't even lie about it we just spoke to a best-selling author Ash we've got a book kids book she's in a different league let's admit it okay I'll let that one slide if you've enjoyed this episode please like share review leave a little star review. I'm not even gonna say please. I'm just gonna say do it.

Pretty please. Do it, actually that's mean, isn't it? Pretty please. Yeah, it would be nice if you haven't subscribed to us. Just tap that subscribe button. Or else. That's a bit threatening. Yeah.

Okay, how can I make it softer? We would appreciate it. That sounds really like. Condescending, condescending, doesn't it? Just do it. I would really appreciate it. Go, keep going, go, go, go. If you left a review at run. Also follow us on social media at To Doting Dads across TikTok, Instagram, and of course,

the Facebook. Let's go. Bye. Bye. Bye. Two Doting Dance podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal

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