Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #154 The Postpartum Cliff With Australian Birth Stories Sophie Walker

Episode Date: June 29, 2025

Sophie Walker, host of Australian Birth Stories is here to talk all things birth, babies and what comes after. Sophie shares the realities of postpartum recovery (aka “the cliff no one warns you about”), what partners can actually do to support mums in those blurry early weeks, and the time her baby went 10 days without a poo. Whether you’re expecting baby number one or three, this one’s full of honest advice and a reminder that no one really has it all figured out. Buy The Complete Guide to Postpartum by Sophie Walker here: https://amzn.asia/d/ebw1XIo   BUY OUR SMELLY T SHIRTS HERE  https://www.twodotingdads.com/category/all-products Buy our book, which is now available in-store! https://www.penguin.com.au/books/two-doting-dads-9781761346552  If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Excuse me Ashton. I don't know why I was English then. Excuse me young chap. Yes. Do you remember anything from Oscar or let's say Macy's birth? I do recall fainting. Okay, anything else?

I recall stepping over a large turd that was April's. Beautiful memories. I know, I know. That you should cherish. That's what you wanna remember with a turd. The important part. Well, I don't really either, but I feel like I'm gonna really give this third birth

a red hot crack. Well, Matt, good thing we have the host of Australian Birth Stories, Sophie Walker, on the podcast to remind us the ins and the outs of pregnancy, birth, and of course, postpartum. Since 2017, she's had over 500 birth stories for women and from women and men all across the country. We chat about the big gaps in birth education, the pressures on partners and what we really need to prepare for postpartum.

Let's get into it. Welcome back to Two Doting Dads and One Doting Mum. I am Matty J. And I'm Ash. And I'm Sophie Walker. And this, oh, these birds are just going nuts right now. I know, birds are birding. This is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good,

it is the bad and the relatable and we don't give advice. So, but you may be, yes, one of the most intelligent guests we've ever had. I would say so. Two books. Two books. We've written one, but it was a kids book. It's not very intelligent either. We did our best. There is a question that we start with. We're going to put you on the spot here. Yes. We can edit this out if you don't want to answer it. Let's go way back to when you were a child. Do you recall the naughtiest thing you ever did? Yes.

Oh yes. Great, great. We might have to edit this out. Okay. Oh. Let's hope not. Let's see. Do you know, so we've got a very blended family.

We're a bit of a Brady bunch and I have a stepbrother who returned home from staying at his mother's with two pet rats. Okay. And I killed them. Oh my goodness. Quick, cut that out. It was an accident surely.

Well the Peter will come for me now, won't they? No, it was intentional. Oh my goodness. Sorry, so can I just ask, it was intentional. Oh my goodness. Sorry, so can I just ask, how old roughly were you? Six. Okay, all right. Okay, okay, that's good.

That's good. We're past a period where you can be persecuted for that. We've really gone off on a tangent now. Yeah, no, very good. Do I dare ask how the rats died? Let's not, let's not. Let's not. Oh my goodness.

Good start. I was like, we can't have pet rats. And my mum was really upset and I was like, I'll just get Let's not. Oh my goodness. Good start. I was like, we can't have pet rats. And my mum was really upset, and I was like, I'll just get rid of them. Oh my goodness. Do you remember what the punishment was for that? No, I don't remember. Everyone was like, yay.

Do you know I think no one knows it was me? Well, they do now. If it makes you feel any better, we have a show called The Eka, which is like the Easter show in Brisbane. My sister won a goldfish. I don't think I killed the goldfish but the goldfish they die pretty quick. Yeah. And she buried it and I thought I thought it would be like a fossil. I thought how cool to look at the bones. So I dug it up. You guys are fucked up. This is... And I got in a lot of trouble and I was like,

I was just inquisitive. I wanted to see the bones. Yeah. Of the fish. The worst thing I ever did was befriend a possum. And that's it. Didn't even kill it. The dogs next door killed it and I cried. And that's about it. But I've never... I can successfully say anything. Can I just say, we had Ash's mum on recently.

Oh fuck. Who talked about him being in prison. J. Holding fuck. Who talked about him being in prison. Jail. Holding cell? Anyway, so he's lying. Okay. Okay, I prefer under the possum. You've been in jail.

Say it. Just, that's the only time you know that I've been in jail. We're starting so low, we can only go up from here. We can only go up from here. And I think it's a really good place to start. You might as well start at the bottom. It's an interesting next question because I didn't expect your first answer.

I don't know where that came from. But I wasn't expecting to start with murder. Did you always want to be a mum? Is my next question. I feel like I need to reframe my first answer. Yeah. Very good, very good. I did always want to be a mum. Are you sure about that? Yeah. Yeah. Very good, very good. I did always want to be a mum.

Are you sure about that? Yeah. Yeah. My murderous tendencies. Maybe we should talk about it. All right, you're a six year old child. Let's just say you sat on him. You just say you sat on him.

Okay, I did always want to be a mum. And I kind of, I always wanted to be a midwife really, which is weird that I didn't actually take that turn after school. But yeah, I always saw myself wanting to be a mum and I was the first at any family event to be like, Oh, hold the baby. I'll hold the baby from a really young age. So I've always been into it.

I was the opposite. I'm like, was there someone who introduced you to midwifery? No, well, I didn't sort of study it, but I've ended up in this space now, kind of just always gravitated towards that nurturing side and wanting to take care of kids. And I really look forward to the first opportunity of like having my own and having my turn and doing it all. Very maternal, you would say.

Yeah. Very cool. And how, I mean, your first child was? I got three boys, yeah. You got three boys, okay. What's the eldest name, sorry? Nick and he's 11. And then I've got Louis who's nine and Ottie is six.

Well, in the parent hierarchy, you are much higher than Madeline. More seasoned. For sure. I didn't know there was such a gap between the birth of your podcast and the birth of your first child. But that is how the idea came about for the podcast.

Yeah, so I had a really difficult first birth, and then I had a really great second birth, and I made the podcast after the second birth. So I was like, it can be really wonderful, and let's kind of celebrate and explore that, and that's when the podcast slotted in. I know you've spoken about this many times, but for anyone who's not familiar

with your birth story for your first, can you explain when you say it wasn't a great birth? Yeah. What went wrong? Yeah, so I went into that birth really confident because I had that vibe of like, I can do this. And I bring on the challenge of contractions and my husband has ADHD and he's very sporty

and he was like, it's fine. We'll just cover the contractions. We'll train for it. We'll be fine. Train for it. So we were both really confident and cocky really. And I was like, I don't need drugs, I'm just gonna do it.

I actually went into, I think it was about 40 weeks and I went in, I already had an appointment scheduled and I think I was having contractions in the night. So I said to the midwife, oh, can you check me? I might be in labour. And she checked me and she said, you're five centimetres. I was like, huh, I'm halfway and I haven't even raised a sweat. And she said, you're gonna have a. I was like, huh, I'm halfway and I haven't even raised a sweat.

And she said, you're gonna have a baby this afternoon, you better go home and have a sleep. And we were like, yeah, we knew we had this. 36 hours later, I was screaming for all the drugs. So I just, well, they used the term failure to progress. I got stuck at five centimetres for a really long time and we did the pacing and the coaching and the TENS machine that I know you guys have tested out.

We sure did. And we were doing all of that. So we know exactly what you've been through. Yeah, exactly. You have simulated that pain. Do they know why that happens? Yeah, it's a bit tricky to know. I got to a point where they said,

well, we need to put the drugs in to induce you and speed up the labor because it's not progressing. And it turns out that my first was 4.4 kilos. So he was pretty big. Can I, I'm gonna be really stupid and I'm sorry. No, me too, go. What's normal? Yeah.

Average is kind of like 3.4. Okay, wow. Yeah, so he was significantly larger. They would have known. No, they didn't, which is funny because then they were worried with my other two babies that they were going to be big and they weren't. They were smaller.

Can I ask you about, you mentioned something there, failure to progress. Yeah. Now, how did it feel when they said that? Yeah, there's so many terms in the birth space and motherhood space, I think, as well, fatherhood, that are negative like that. There's failure to progress, even miscarriage. It's like you've done it wrong. You're not progressing. You're not pushing. I think as well, Fatherhood, that a negative like that, this failure to progress, even miscarriage, it's like you've done it wrong, you're not progressing,

you're not pushing, you need, yeah, all these interventions which we're trying to like dispel and use more positive language. Even people still use like natural birth versus unnatural birth. And I mean, every mode of birth is natural. We sort of talk about caesareans as belly births rather than vaginal births. But we're trying to do away with all that negative connotation. Yeah, as soon as you said that, I was like, it just has such like a negative... Yeah, when it's sort of out of your control, right?

Exactly. And you're doing your best. And of course you want your baby to come out. No one's like actively working. No, I can't believe that. Even with the cervix, well, you've failed to progress. Incompetent cervix is another term. Oh my goodness. You know, like you're just so negative. Oh, I'm sorry. You've got a shit cervix, well you've failed to progress. Incompetent cervix is another term. Oh my goodness. You know, like you're just so negative.

Oh, I'm sorry, you've got a shit cervix? Yeah. That's pretty much what you did. A medical term? Yeah. Again, something you got no physical control over. But I more or less got to the point where I said, can I have an epidural?

And then his heart rate dropped and they needed to use forceps. And I had a post-plenum hemorrhage and it all just kind of went pear shaped. For a really crazy five minutes, my mum was there and my sister was there taking photos and I yelled at her, put down your camera and hold up my leg. And my mum ran out of the room. She was just like, this is too much. My little boy came out and he was blue and unresponsive. So that was a hectic few minutes, but he came around really quickly and then they managed me really quickly, but I was just like, what the hell?

I was not expecting that. Just not expecting it. When you're in that situation where baby comes out blue, in the chaos of it all, I know you kind of zone out towards that point of childbirth, but are you panicked? Are you like, are you aware of the stress and those types of emotions? Yeah, and I actually can still recall losing the blood.

I thought I was dying and I just said, just go to Jono, just go and be with the baby because I'm pretty much dying. Oh my goodness. And it was all like, that sounds really extreme. And it was in the time, but it was really quickly. And then everyone's like, no, the baby's fine. We've controlled the bleeding.

You're good. Now like just put the baby on the breast. I was like, oh, and I felt terrible and I was depleted from, so I lost 900 mils and anything over a liter is considered a postpartum hemorrhage, but if you think of a liter of milk, it's a lot of blood. A liter of water, if you will. Thank you.

Yeah, so it was really stressful for everyone and my husband, John, I thought that the baby and me were gonna die. So it was traumatic for the family as well. But I guess fast forward to the next birth, I still was like, okay, I want a second go at this. And I really immersed myself in birth education and looking at other possibilities of birth.

Cause I think I just went in going, I don't need drugs and it'll be fine. And they said, I'll have a baby in the next four hours and it's easy. And so I went the next time around, it's like, I don't need drugs and it'll be fine. And they said, I'll have a baby in the next four hours and it's easy. And so I went the next time around, it's like, I'm gonna absorb every single way that this can unfold. So nothing catches me by surprise.

Is there anything with the education that you had leading up to the second child, is there anything about your first birth that you go, oh, I wish I knew this, or I wish I'd done this differently? Yeah, one of the biggest shifts was instead of like going, oh, a contraction's coming and like literally going,

oh, I just got to get through the next one minute. I went the opposite and I was like, okay, a contraction's coming. I'm going to like release the tension as much as possible and literally let the body move, the baby kind of move down and encourage that process, the physiology of birth and work with it rather than against it.

And I think I had like a five hour birth with my second and he was a kilo smaller, so I think that helps. And you've done it before and all your muscles have done it before. But I really kind of worked with the process instead of against it. And I think it's instinctual when you feel pain to go. For sure.

I mean, when we were just on the TENS machine, Matt in particular really worked against the pain. Yeah, you should have been moving in. I went with it for a while. Did you really grounded yourself? I really grounded myself, really felt like I was in my natural element and then all of a sudden I was like, stop! It was tough.

I just want to jump back the days and maybe the weeks leading after you the first birth Yeah, I mean, where was your headspace after that? It was obviously the unexpected Yeah We were in a kind of unusual situation at the time because we hadn't really planned to have a baby then and we were both Living at my parents house and we were both trying to finish our master's degrees So it wasn't like the best time to fall pregnant and my mom wanted to sell the family home and just like well We can't sell it now because you're pregnant. So I came home to a pretty great situation mum was cooking for me and then they were like it was

first grandchild so they were hovering around our bedroom door in the morning going can we hold the baby can we hold the baby so I could go and have a shower and we had heaps of support really but I think like my mum was saying oh I think you know the fontanel the soft bit on the top of their head I think his fontanel is going in I don't think you're feeding him enough I think, like, my mum was saying, oh, I think, you know, the fontanel, the soft bit on the top of their head, I think his fontanel's going in. I don't think you're feeding him enough. I think you should give him boiled water. And I was like, mum, nobody does that anymore.

Like, you don't know what you're talking about. Give him some whiskey. Yeah, put something in a bottle. So there was a little bit of that tension. But generally we had really great support. And I had midwifery group care. So I had a known midwife throughout the pregnancy, the birth and the postpartum.

And she was coming to the home and checking everything and supporting me. So I had like the best possible kind of setup. And yet I still felt physically really depleted. I had, because I had an episiotomy, I had a lot of stitches and swelling and actually had a prolapse. So I don't know if you're familiar with that.

We're throwing those words around all the time now. I'm assuming a prolapse is... I don't know if you're familiar with that. We're throwing those words around all the time now. I'm assuming a prolapse is... I don't know what that is. So it's when, you know, so you have your pelvic floor as a woman that holds all the organs in at the bottom. And when you're pushing and the weight of the pregnancy can stretch those muscles, so things can kind of fall, not fall out, but there's laxity in those muscles. So you can have incontinence issues

or you can have just like a heaviness and things like that. So you need to see a woman's health physio and get support. So I had those things going on, which leads to like lower back pain and stuff and still navigating feeding and all the challenges that a first time mum goes through. But emotionally, once I'd got through thinking about the birth and just going, what the hell was that?

I kind of shelved that until I was pregnant again to like reassess the birth process. And I really, I really enjoyed being a mom and I really had a really easy breastfeeding journey. So I felt really positive about that. We have to give you a big round of applause. I'll give you like a don't know for the audio, because since 2017, you've created an absolute behemoth of a podcast. Like it is incredible what you've done. And we found out before we started recording that you still do a lot of it on your own.

I think people really underestimate how much work is involved in a podcast. People think you just rock up and you chat for a bit and that's it. So well done. Thank you. You had the birth of your second child, which was opposite to your first, but then how do

you make the connection between those situations to then go, I want to start a podcast. Well, I was listening to a lot of podcasts at the time and it was, yeah, in 2017 there weren't many. It wasn't like what it is today, but I was listening to heaps. I'm working part time in cancer research. That's what I was doing. And I was chatting to a friend. We did a lot of like envelope stuffing and things for research.

She's like, you should just do your own podcast. And I was like, oh, who'd listen to mine? She's like, doesn't even matter. Just like record yours and a few friends, which is what I did initially. And I seriously thought, like I was working and I had kids and things, I didn't think it would become a business or anything like that. And I literally did. So the first episode is me, the next one's my sister, then a few close friends. And I was like, can you apparently with podcasts, you got to keep the momentum. So tomorrow I'm coming over and we'll record your birth story and everyone likes to tell their best story.

So they're like, sure. But now they're like, can you actually take my episode down? I didn't realize millions of people. Did you have to? Or no, I haven't. I was like, no, it's fine. You found the contract. Yeah, I don't know how to take it down.

I'm just doing this on my own. So yeah, it's funny, but I've been doing it. So we've done 550 episodes now. Wow. And started to share real variety of birth experiences and postpartum experiences. And I think people enjoyed kind of seeing that as well. Yeah, people will like to hear

that other people have gone through things as well. I wasn't really aware of all the different variations of and what can happen. Do you think it's benefiting in terms of what people can expect in every situation? And I think we have like some people find out they're pregnant and just kind of want to block their ears and not hear any of it. And so we've got like a starting point of here's five positive birth experiences to get you started. Have a listen. And then hopefully throughout your nine months of preparing, you'll gradually listen to things that have had been a little

more challenging because I know people have messaged me saying, oh, thank God I listened to Claire's episode because she asked for this and I asked for that. And so they're just sort of putting a few extra things in their toolkit along the way. And I think, yeah, their firsthand account saying that really helped. Is there one that stands out as being the most surprising that you've heard on the podcast? One of them that was a bit more interesting was a same sex couple where the other partner who didn't

carry the child was able to induce lactation. So both breastfed the baby even though one of them carried the baby. Again, when I'm like we don't know how many variations and how what can happen. There's one I've never heard. Straight off the bat. Only men could do that. Assuming it was two women. Yeah, it was two women. You literally don't have the biology for it. And every woman's like, imagine how good that would be. You like the 2 AM feed, you just elbow the other one. 50-50, there you go.

Thank heavens we don't have that ability biologically. Wow, that is such an amazing, I just didn't know, sorry, my mind's a little bit blind about that. And is there any stories when you look at the spectrum of those being difficult births that sticks out as being one that was traumatic for you to listen to? Yeah, quite a few of them, because we do everything from like a textbook water birth with no drugs

and everyone was euphoric through to a stillbirth where the baby hasn't survived or an infant loss. So we really do the full spectrum. And at the beginning, they're titled as such. And at the beginning, I'll say, this episode contains the following. If you don't feel ready to listen to it, then stop now. So we're very respectful of that. And yet those episodes still get a lot of people listening

because not only is it beneficial for someone to share it and a cathartic experience, but other people that have been through that sort of such a unique and harrowing journey want to listen to other people how they navigated it. And then we've also got a lot of people listening who want to support friends and family or we've also got it's now certified professional development for midwives to listen to the podcast as part of their training so they can listen because you need to do a certain

number of births before you're qualified. But to be able to listen to firsthand accounts on mass, they can use that as accreditation, which is awesome. Do you find that when you have people reaching out that aren't, they aren't parents yet, but they're thinking about whether they wanna be parents and they've listened to a few stories and they've sort of built up a bit of an anxiety around it? Usually not an anxiety. They sort of are starting to get excited and they're doing all their homework

and I feel like they're like the gold, the A-plus students. They're starting ahead because I think depending on what model of care you want and things like that, you do need to know straight away to advocate for that and if they've done their research and know what they want then they're halfway there for that. So it's definitely done their research and know what they want, then they're halfway there for that. So it's a, yeah, it's definitely exciting. Perhaps more so skewed to like midwifery and student dollars and things listening, and then they're ready at their point.

I feel like I'm a bit of a sponge right now. We are expecting our baby, our third baby in September. So exciting. And I think now more than ever, I'm a lot more keen to understand all potential situations. Going back to some of the stories that you've told, is there one that sticks with you the most? I kind of think my favorite,

one of my favorite episodes is with my sister, cause I was her birth support. And I'd had three kids at that point and I was supporting her. So you're the expert. Well, I thought I was, but then one year in there and I think when you've got that emotional connection, so it really made me sort of see what it's like

to support someone. And she was saying, I don't think I can do it. And I was thinking, I don't think you can either. I didn't say that. And I was like, oh my God, yeah, that really has to come out. And when you're at that angle, it looks totally different to when you're looking down.

You're doing great, Meg. Yeah, I was like, just like squat a bit more. And afterwards I was like, I don't know, I think perhaps I was using all the techniques and stories. I was like, I think you need to go to the toilet now. Now get on the ball. Now get on the bed and do the squat. And then her midwife was like fine and let me boss her around.

And it went really well. And it was a great experience. And I actually caught her baby. Wow. Yeah, which is funny because I caught her daughter and she is like a no touch person. I was like I caught you a birth and she won't give me a hug now. Oh wow. Troll time. Out of the 500 or so stories, how many of them had a fainting partner in it? I think a few. Yeah, you're one of them had a fainting partner in it? I think a few.

Yeah, it's common. Oh, you're not alone. Yeah, you're one of them. I've got two kids, first born, very went in routinely. She went into labor, contractions fine, same thing. Sort of, he was spine to spine. And we sort of ended up being in there for like 48 hours

before it turned into an emergency C-section. I was completely fine through the whole thing. I had to step over a bit of poo, that was probably the hardest part. But like I was sort of, I felt calm and collected in the moment when she needed me to be there. But then with my second child, it was a planned C-section,

like booking into a hotel in this instance. And we were both like, this is so much more calm. And we know what to expect, they tell us what we're doing. We're in scrubs. It's all happening this morning. I'm staring my wife as she's sitting on the side of the of the bed and she's getting an epidural. I can't see anything. I didn't see the needle. Okay. Boom. I'm out. I remember, thankfully, I was sort of crouched down sitting holding her hands just being there in the moment with her and trying to be, if she was scared, trying to take on some of that for her. And it all came a little bit overwhelming for me and I fainted. And I remember waking up with my legs in the air with a flannel on my face. And the pants were off as well. Yes, that's still unexplained. up with my legs in the air with a flannel on my face.

The pants were off as well. Yes, that's still unexplained. We'll get to the bottom of that. And I'm holding a juice box and I look up and my wife's laying down getting ready for a Plan C section and she just goes, of course you'd make it all about you. And there's all the nurses and everyone around taking photos of me flat on my back with my legs up in the air. And I'm excited to tell this story because I'm usually not allowed to tell this story because I've told it too many times. And Matt's like, can you just call it? But today I'm allowed to tell it.

So I recovered and I'm so pleased. Have you had any stories that have a similar situation to that? Yeah, I think it's quite common. And I think, well, I think the big point of difference for like the birthing woman is going through all the hormones and everything and you go into this other world where it's quite different for the birth support person

because they're present and they're seeing their child that's being born and their partner go through all those things. So I think you're in kind of, you're almost on different planets. Yeah, I was kind of like when they pull both kids out and they're screaming, it's like, put it back, put it back. A few of my friends have fainted actually. One, he took a peek midway through and sort of got a bit woozy and he moved off towards the corner of the delivery suite and he fainted, hit the corner of the wall, started to slide down but his knees locked out and stopped him from actually hitting and he spent the whole delivery like that.

Oh, he might have been more used to doing that then. Yeah. Out of the way. I haven't told you that story before. No. Have I told it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great.

And the way he tells it, it's just great. So he missed the birth. He missed the whole birth and he was in the corner of the wall and yeah, his knees stopped him from sliding all the way to the ground. I'm wondering if these dads would have benefited from doing the course. I think so. I was just thinking you can't kind of prepare for the smells of the hospital

and like whether you'll see the epidural needle or things like that, but you can certainly prepare. We're big advocates of prepare as a birth partner and have like quite a few different options and make yourself a cheat sheet. Like, oh, if she, you know, cause sometimes you learn, oh, they like light touch massage. I think if my husband had slightly touched me,

I would have punched him in the face. I was just thinking, Chi Chi, I was way too sweaty for him to land on my palm. I'm like, what does that say? I feel like for the third birth, I'm gonna be making up for the fact that I was a little bit shit

in the preparation side of things for the first two, because... Can we get an example of? No, I just, I just think, I think I don't even know if I went to a birthing class. I think we went to one, we had one walk through with a midwife. That was it.

I was away for work a lot for our first child for the birth. So that's my excuse. Yeah. But I just, I don't know, I think, I think I underestimated how much I would need to know. Cause I'm like, oh, it's, it's like, if you're going in for any type of operation, Yeah.

You're not really, I'm like, well, the medical staff will do all the work. Yeah. I don't have to have the degree to get this done. Yeah. That's such a common idea and philosophy of that. Yeah, you'll have a midwife, people think the midwife will be like, they're like the like a doler or like a support person and

they're in and out and they've got other things going on. A lot of the time, so people are listening, they haven't been in the birth space before you're on your own a lot of the time, just with your partner. So you want them to feel confident, you want them to know different things. And like say you don't want that, you want four other options of like, maybe you want ice chips or maybe you want the face towel or maybe you want birth combs and things like that

and have a little menu of things you can offer. Because otherwise you'll feel like you'll get to that point. It's a bit like when you get to an exam and you're like, shit, I really should have studied the night before. This is that occasion. You can't get it wrong. You need to be there and you need to have done a bit of the homework. But I've given you my book, so you'll be fine.

Of the courses that you provide, what do you think would benefit young Matthew here the most? Yeah. Well, I think... Let's start from the beginning. Free education. You've got two births to go off, I think, as well. So you know loosely what she enjoyed. I saw on the website, there's actually, before you even get to childbirth,

there's like an information chapter on being pregnant. Yep. You're not pregnant. Well, how to support the pregnant. Yeah, how can I help Laura? I want to be, I'm trying to... How can we both help Laura? I'm trying, I'm trying to- How can we both help Laura? I'm trying to write the wrongs of the past.

Yeah, there's so many things you can do. And I think you're in a unique spot with, and I've got three, so I know what that's like. Logistically, things are very different this time around because you've got two other people to take care of. I think you need to also just allow that space for, this is a whole new person coming in. It's a new baby, a new birth, so you don't know how it's gonna unfold, but you've also got

the logistics of the other two. And I think people commonly kind of say with subsequent children like, oh you be the one that take the other two to the park or to kinder or daycare and then you'll find most people on my show have said I cried and cried when the new baby came and it was less about this baby and it was more about missing the other two kids or the other one kid because you're suddenly having less connection with them and you actually know them more than you know this baby.

And I remember that with my third, because I was like, he didn't look like the others as well. I was like, I'll take care of you. Like it wasn't postpartum depression. I was like, I'll take care of you, but I don't really know you and I feel that connected to you. Like it wasn't postpartum depression. I was like, I'll take care of you, but I don't really know you and I feel that connected to you, which was new for me. And that took a little bit of time to get to know him.

But I felt more of a pull to the other two children. So I think you have to find that balance of, don't assume that like helping is taking the other two away. Maybe sometimes it's holding the newborn and letting them have the common experience. Yeah. Flicked it. Flicked it. Yeah. That's good gear.

That is great gear. That is good stuff. I don't even think about that. Cause I mean, when you were like, yeah, who are you? Yeah. Like that makes total sense. Cause it's the first time you have a child as well. You're kind of like, I don't know you.

Yeah, on our podcast and in the content that we do, we're like, find what works for you. And like, these are some of my opinions and my experience, but you know, you do what works for you in your household. But I loved, I was never like have the husband up helping with the nappy change. I'm like, that seems ludicrous to me. Like sleep, if you can sleep, you sleep.

So you've got your A game for the next day. I loved with my second two to just go, I slept with them in a separate room, like in the nursery. And I was like, okay, you deal with the other two kids. And I loved it at night rather than have the nighttime scary so that sometimes people say, oh, the night comes and you're on your own and you're feeding all night and you're not going to sleep.

I loved it. I was like, we're going to go into our little nest and I just have to look after the newborn and do our thing and you'll be up for like making school lunches and doing daycare run and you'll be feeling fresh and it's a nice time for them to bond more and become a little bit more reliant if you haven't got that dynamic. Yeah because you were saying you really bonded with Marley after Lola was born because you do become like sort of like little besties all of a sudden. Yeah. Because my wife did the same thing.

So with our second, she slept in the master bedroom with Macy. Yeah. I slept on the couch, classy. But then I was responsible for anything Oscar needed. Yeah. And it worked because I was getting rest, Oscar was getting rest. And we could, you know, like jump in and help out in the morning when and we'd be refreshed, ready to help.

And I think that's a really good advice. Yeah. I know everyone is different here. So we're not going to take what you say as being the golden rule. But your husband, when you mentioned the first birth, he was like, this is a sport. We're going to tackle it.

We're going to get it done. We're going to win. Yeah. Is there anything that he did, or even if it was for that first birth, second or third, We're going to tackle it. We're going to get it done. We're going to win. Yeah. Is there anything that he did, or even if it was for that first birth, second or third, is there anything that he did that you look back and go,

I'm so glad that he did that? I've got the counter to that. Okay. Right. In the first birth and then where he did better in the second. But the first birth, I said, I want the epidural now.

And he said, now remember, he's like right in my face. Now remember you said when you asked for the epidural that I should offer, like he was like going off script. I should offer, you know, ice chips or something. And I said, get out of my face, mum. I said, I'm so serious. I want that and it might take a while.

So order it now. And so he tried, he did follow the instructions, but it wasn't, he wasn't reading the room. Sometimes when Loris says, I'm going to have a nap, wake me up in an hour. Oh yeah. And I'm like, are you sure? It's like defusing a bomb. But I think second time around he'd learnt and I'd learnt and we had different scripts.

And I actually didn't really involve him in the second. I just really went inward. I hardly spoke. I just really was focusing on the physiology of birth and doing it on my own. Did he struggle with that at all then? No, I think he was better at just like, okay, if she needs me, she'll like grab me. Yep.

And interestingly with the third, I did actually want more support from him. And I was holding his hands, gripping and using him as counterbalance. I didn't have birth combs at that point, so I was just holding onto him for- Squeezing into your life. Yeah, right.

Yeah. Is there any advice that you can give me when we are, I have a level of apprehension right now about the third arriving. And is there any advice that you can give me on how to better manage life with three little ones under one roof? What's advice for managing three kids? Yeah.

Okay. It's hard. I've got a tragic photo of when I just came home from hospital and I was in that little nest I'd built myself. And then my three year old at the time brought a pillow and slept outside the door like he was waiting for me to come back out. Oh my God. That's so true. I know. It's real. Well, I think the important thing is to acknowledge

that it's a transition for everybody in the family. So for each child, so your youngest is no longer the youngest. They become the middle man or woman in your case. Yeah, the dynamic shift, you're suddenly, you've got three different people and three different wants and needs. And I think there's an assumption with subsequent kids, people like, oh, you've had a baby before, you know what you're doing. And it's like, yeah, well, we know what we're

doing to a degree, but we've got a whole nother person to manage now. And they're all different, hey? Yeah. You need more meals, you need more help with like, the kinder run and things like that. And you've got more mess. And I think acknowledging kind of surrendering the previous births and children and being like, okay, we've got a clean slate here in theory. We're gonna look at this birth and this baby in a whole new light and really brainstorm.

Like together, sit down and talk about what, well, Laura, what did you like in the first birth? What did I do? Just get it, maybe get a bit of an appraisal of your previous work. Yeah, yeah. And then together just talk about logistically, like I don't know if you're wanting to do breastfeeding,

but logistically, okay, we're gonna probably have witching hour where my kids just generally would cry from say four till 8 p.m. And you're like, all right, we're probably in for an unsettled period with a baby, but we're gonna have to feed the other kids. So logistically, should we have like, how are we gonna to manage that? Like just map out kind of best and worst case scenarios so that you're both on the same page about what you're trying to navigate it.

Changing nappies again, Matt. I know. It's weird. How old are your girls now? So Marley is about to turn, or by the time this comes out, Marley is six and Lola is five. Okay, yeah. I think. She will be five. Four.

Yeah, so you'll have kids. Five in February she will be. Five, sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gold star for the godfather. He knows my children's is the second in the family. Yes, yeah, yeah. To reiterate, I know my children's ages. Thank you, Ash.

I'm also, I'm a numbers guy. Yes. So I get it. There was. Thank you, Ash. I'm also, I'm a numbers guy. Yes. Yeah. I get it. There was something that you did tap us on the shoulder about a story that happened with one of your kids. I think it was Nick. Yep.

Who had a bit of an incident in a Westfield car park. Bit of constipation. Can you please tell us how did that happen? Well, you know how they're like, check for wet nappies. Are they consistently doing wet nappies? And we're like, yeah, he's consistently doing wet nappies, but he hasn't pooed for 10 days. 10 days?

I would be so fucking cranky. I know. Yeah, he was like- He's like Michelin man. Yeah, it's like going somewhere. You don't reabsorb it. And they're like, it's fine for breastfed. He was exclusively breastfed.

And they, yeah, apparently for breastfed babysit, I think the upper end of the scale is 10 days. They're like, be ready cause it'll come back out. I bet, I bet, I bet. So you do all the things you gotta do still. But then it was like, oh, he started making strange noises. And I videoed it, which I don't think anyone needs to see. But John is like, why are you videoing this?

And I was like, it's just like so overwhelming. But it, yeah, it was full on. It's good for the archives. It is good for the archives. Yeah, the 21st. Okay, Westfield Car Park and just full explosion. Yeah, well we were gonna go in and then he started making noises.

And I was like, I think it's time. So we went back to the car. No, we went back into the car and then like had him in the boot. And- What kind of noise does a child make? Just a lot of groaning. Exactly like that actually.

This is a gross visualisation but it was pretty much like Mr Whippy because you know how you hold their legs up to keep them out of the way and it just kept coming. You're like pull the levers out! Pull the levers! But we also just felt like it needs to come out. Oh my goodness. None of my kids have gone 10 days. How long do you reckon you've gone?

The longest for me. Not you. Personally. Well, it was just one time. I was about to delve into a story when I was 12, but I won't now. No, we never had that issue. It's so, there's so many things that happen differently for other people.

Do you think there may not be an answer to this, but what do you think is the biggest misconception about childbirth? Ah, misconception. I feel like you don't know what you're gonna want until you're in it. So people, I mean, we talk about birth plans and I encourage people to do them, but I encourage you to have three plans because you don't know who you're

going to be on that day and you don't know what's going to happen. So I think a lot of people also think, I'll just tell you what I need. But usually, or in many, many cases, you go almost mute, you go inside yourself and it's not a time where you can say, actually, can you pass me that jumper? And people will say, oh, I was thinking it. And I thought I was saying like, I need my chapstick, but they weren't because they were so within themselves. So I think even thinking like you might think you want a water birth,

and then the thought of being in water at the time feels really wrong. So being flexible and yeah, just being open to things changing because you can definitely educate and prepare yourself and listen to all the stories But birth just does its own thing in a lot of ways and you've got to be ready for the You got to have the contingency just in case I can imagine like with so many people that want to be so

Meticulous and plan but there's some things that are just completely out of your control. Yeah, which happens Yeah, which is why we say like plan for a caesarean perhaps you go You're not wanting a caesarean. Perhaps you're going in not wanting a caesarean, but plan if you are, you want to have your playlist and you want to tell the doctors not to talk about golfing to like keep it a special birthing environment and keep the lights limb if dim, if possible and things like that.

So yeah, be ready for all of it. So I'm just going to explore all potential avenues. Yeah. Just in case. Yeah. U. case. Yeah. You best do. So if any of those paths are the ones that we end up going down on the day,

I'll have some level of information. Yeah, and like you know how to use the TENS machine now, so you've got that tick. Well, he knows what it feels like, he doesn't know how to use it. He's like, imagine the corner, putting it on yourself. Is this how you do it? Just so you know, it goes on the back.

No one told us that until we saw the comments. I was like, what does this mean? Next time, next time. Now, postpartum, you've got a new book. Okay, tell us a little bit about. Yeah, I think we got to the first book and we're like, oh, I'm postpartum. We can't just squeeze that into a few pages at the end

because it's huge, as you both know. And we wanted to find a really comprehensive guide to sort of feeding and sleep and all the big challenges of maternal mental health. And we also wanted something that was focused more on the woman, because I feel like you move into like all those different apps that are like, baby focus, the baby should be doing this,

you should be tummy time for this long and rolling at this point. And we wanted something that really focused on the changes that the woman's going through. And it's a perfect guide for a support person or partner to read to kind of help understand that, the physiology of a lot of those processes too. Yeah, because I mean, my wife suffered from postpartum

depression and for me it was, for both of us, it was such new territory. I didn't know what to do. She didn't know what to do. We didn't know what we were facing. I think we were really, really lucky that our GP noticed some things and some other people around us noticed some things that really helped and we could start the research. So it's nice to know that for anyone out there that's coming up to the birth of their first, second or third or whatever child, there's something that can help them navigate that.

Yeah. That's about mum. Exactly. Really. Yeah. And I think when you're pregnant, you go to all those appointments all the time and they're measuring and checking and they're checking your blood pressure and everything and literally have a baby and six weeks later,

they go, yep, you're good to go. Do you want contraception? Like that's pretty much how it goes. And you've got to navigate breastfeeding if that's what you're trying to do or learn how to do mixed feeding if you're wanting to do that or move to formula. You're trying to navigate. People say don't co-sleep,

but we know 70 to 80% of people will co-sleep at some point. We also know that 98% of women want to breastfeed and by six months only 15% of Australian women are still breastfeeding. So they're wanting to. Holy shit. And it drops off like that because there's no support. There's no funding.

So it's like if you want to find a lactation consultant and you're exhausted and you've got crack nipples usually. You feel isolated too. Yeah, and if you haven't got the funds, you can't perhaps pay $150, $200 for a private LC to come. So, I mean, we'd love to see huge change in that area where you get more Medicare subsidies for support like that. for a private LC to come. So, I mean, we'd love to see huge change in that area where you get more Medicare subsidies for support like that.

But I think having a base understanding of these are some of the things to look out for, particularly with postnatal anxiety and depression, you're in such a vulnerable physical and emotional time. And we talk about the postpartum cliff where you're literally getting all this support and then it tanks. And you're supposed to just navigate this on your own. You're supposed toum cliff where you're literally getting all this support and then it tanks. And you're supposed to just navigate this on your own.

You're supposed to know exactly what you're doing. Yeah, both of you when you're tired and- When you talk about that drop off, when does that normally take place? Well, from a medical point of view, after the six week check, but a day five, you literally fall off a cliff with your hormones.

It's the biggest hormonal drop you'll ever experience. So which contributes to things like post-natal depression, anxiety. And we try and normalise like when to seek support and literally where to go. So we've got the resources like start here, reach out to the GP, get a plan, all those sorts of things.

But also we just normalise things like having no idea. I think people talk about motherly instinct or paternal instinct and you're learning But also we just normalise things like having no idea. I think people talk about motherly instinct or paternal instinct and you're learning who you are as a person. You're trying to navigate this new dynamic and your hormones are all over the place. We're expecting so much of people. It's like the expectation is starting a brand new job

and knowing how to do it perfectly. And it should come naturally. Yeah, and I know for my wife April and me, I had such high expectations of myself, and so did she, that when we weren't hitting them, it was actually really bad, it was really toxic. So I think like having something like this book out that people can use as a tool to navigate that is, I wish I had that.

It's hard too when people have tried to perhaps fall pregnant for a long time and have really wanted this and then go, actually a lot of this is shit. Yeah. I'm not sure I do want this. And normalising that you can have rage and you can have disappointment and you can mourn your old life

and you can mourn your relationship with your partner because you're hardly seeing each other or you're not being as intimate perhaps as you were and we're trying to normalise all of that and also help arm you with support to navigate it because yeah we're expecting and we see the shiny kind of polished version online of people when they've got it together but you're not seeing that harrowing six weeks post-birth where you're both, everyone's crying, everyone's leaking, you know? It's chaos. Yeah. Chaos.

Is there a chapter in the book that tells you what to do if you get shat on? Oh, just shower, or both go into the shower together. Both go into the shower together, right? And just burn the outfits. Yeah, yeah, yeah, every show. Some of them just can't be saved. I think it's obvious chatting to you

why the podcast has been so successful because you've been such a valuable source of information. What's going to be next? I don't know. I'm moving into perimenopause. So I feel like that's the I've made products for myself basically as I've gone along like, okay, I wish I had this. I wish I had this.

And now I'm moving into that chapter. I'm like, oh, maybe I'll have to write a book on perimenopause. But yeah, I don't know. I could be toddlers and toilet training, although I don't feel like I've got much advice to give there. I didn't do a good job. Both of my kids toilet trained themselves all of a sudden.

I think, no, my wife's done it. I'm just, I'll just see myself out. Typical man. Yeah, I know, yeah. Like I tried, I tried. And they feed themselves. I know, it's weird. What are you guys all complaining about?

No, no, like she's obviously done an amazing job. I try and get involved as much as possible, but yeah, a lot of the time they don't listen. They don't listen to me. They prefer the mom always. Yeah, I know. I know, yeah. We always end on a question where we ask the guest,

when their children have grown up, they're no longer living with you. Is there one thing that you would want them to remember about the house they grew up in? Well, our house is very noisy and wild. I think we're, yeah, my husband's got ADHD and it's questionable whether they're all on the spectrum somewhere, so it's noisy, but I feel like

we're a bit of a team. Like I joke when we travel, we're like a boy band. So I hope they reflect back on like, God, I don't know how mum took us to all those places and did all those things. And it was wild, but it was fun. It's noisy and hilarious at our house. Sophie, it's been a pleasure.

Thank you so much for not just this chat, but for all the work you're doing in the space. Yeah, thanks for having me. We appreciate you spending some time with us today and helping to educate. Young Matt here, who's expecting again. And of course the book, we'll leave a link in our show notes for that as well.

Appreciate it. Thanks guys. I can only imagine We'll leave a link in our show notes for that as well. Appreciate it. Thanks guys. I can only imagine just how thrilled Laura is right now. I think she should be over the moon. You're putting in the work. The hours. The hours. Hour.

At one hour. What's this episode, 45 minutes? Yeah, round up I always say. I think I'm almost ready to push the obstetrician out the door and deliver this baby myself. Roll those sleeves up, big guy. Give me that needle. They're like, so you need some gloves.

Shab! Shab, I know what I'm doing. If you've enjoyed this episode, please feel free to subscribe, share, leave a review, or you can join us on all of the socials, which is... Two Doting Dads. Let me blow your mind. Go on. If you put the TikTok followers and the Instagram followers together,

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