Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #172 Sassy Scott On His Rollercoaster 6 Year Surrogacy Journey

Episode Date: September 21, 2025

You probably know Sassy Scott from the internet, where he and his brother Luke go viral for driving each other absolutely mad. The bickering, the banter, the pranks… Classic sibling love that’s now the backbone of their hit podcast, Luke & Sassy Scott.  He's recently become a parent to twin boys with his husband, Marcus. Scotty opens up about his six-year journey to fatherhood with his husband, Marcus. From the highs of hope to the heartbreaks along the way, their path through surrogacy has been anything but simple.  It’s taken years of resilience, sacrifice, and determination to get to the moment they finally became parents to twin boys.     Listen to Luke and Sassy Scott Podcast https://open.spotify.com/show/1zJ2Mb6BjSMV236TBSSQre BUY OUR SMELLY T SHIRTS HERE  https://www.twodotingdads.com/category/all-products Buy our book, which is now available in-store! https://www.penguin.com.au/books/two-doting-dads-9781761346552  If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Mr. Wicks. Mr. Johnson. You know you're in for a wild ride when you invite Sassy Scott on the podcast. He's a ball of energy. He's also very funny. Do you know what I like most about him? Is people we see online

and then you meet them in person and you think, oh, you're really different to how you were online. He's not at all. He is. What you see on social media is exactly what he's like in person. He's loud, hilarious,

but he's also very empathetic, man. Isn't he? Yes. Yeah, he's got a hundred. hard out of shell. But once you break that down, he's all gooey inside. Well said. You may have seen him on social media with his brother, Luke.

They often go very viral. I sound a bit Trump-esque, though. Very viral. Where they annoy the shit out of each other, to put it simply. But we're not here to talk about comical sibling rivalry, are we, Matt? No. Scott has been on a six-year journey to become a father with his husband, Mark. This has quite literally taken them on a roller coaster of emotion.

Yes, Scott and Marcus, they decided to take the surrogacy route, which meant a great deal of time and money in pursuit of one goal to become parents. Thankfully, they got their wish, but it was by no means easy. Let's get into it. Welcome back to three dotting dads. I'm Maddie J. I'm Ash. And I'm Sassy Scott.

And this is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good. It is the bad. And the relatable. And if you come for advice. Yes, we remember. We don't do it. We don't do it.

You know what I got distracted by? The house here where, okay, we're not in our normal recording studio. The acoustics are great. We're in the snow, in like, East Jinderbine, and the house is creaking. I have no idea where we are. I had to look at a map before. Google Maps. There's no shame in the house guy.

Where am I in the world? I have no idea. How did you get from Canberra to here? It got driven. Hell must be nice. You got driven last night. I hate you. Oh, he did the air first hour than I did two hours.

I was like, I need to do a little story and Ash was like, yeah, cool. And then Ashley's like, isn't it weird with like, but da da da and I was like, shut the fuck up? I talk to pass the time. I just need to, I just need to continue to talk all the time. Or I get bored or destructive. What would you prefer? Sorry, you're right.

So this is a fun little situation where we are all on a little trip away, thanks to Red Bull. We're at Perisher, East Jindy at the moment. See, I was just about to say Threadboat. I know. We're in Threadboat. It's all the same. It's all the same.

Snowy mountains. Well said. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And we actually, we've been trying to get you for a little while, you, motherfucker. Yeah, I know.

And we've fucking got you now. You had no choice. As soon as Luke was like, hey, why don't you try and get him on. I was like, damn it. You're on to it? Let's do it. I'm going to watch my clock

because we have, we have a dinner booking for Italian. The last thing I want to do was hold you back from Italian. What are you ate at Italian? What's your go to? Do you know what I'm really into at the moment?

People are like, when the fuck are they talking about kids? Later, relax. Food first. Okay, yeah. Get that out of it. Spaghetti and berry. Oh, what is that?

I'm glad you asked. It's like a, he's bougie. I know. I'm not. I'm a man of the people. Anyway, it's lobster.

It was a non pod diet. I'm out of a beautiful. It's like a seafoody. Did you say lobster? No, it's in joy. Yes, like a seafood prawn. Okay, yeah. Yours?

I'm spaghetti bolognais with vanilla ice cream afterwards all the time, no matter where I am in the world. What do you mean? Are you 12? Yes. That's not what my kids are. How do you? He likes a sweet treat.

But getting away from like family, you guys would know this. It's like I used to when I traveled for work, even now for work, and people are like, come out after the gig or whatever. I'm like, I've got something really. important to get to, I go back to the hotel. I just sit in the bed, I mean, spaghetti bolognays with vanilla ice cream.

How long have you been sober for now? I think I'm five years in February. Last time I asked you that was two years ago. Wow, yeah, wow. Five years. Congratulations, by the way. Thanks. We usually start this off finding a little bit about you as a child.

For God. Just a quick question. My only picture of Scott is when you had those blonde tips at the front. I don't know how old you were. It's called iconic. It is iconic. 19 then? No, I was in high school.

He was much younger. I was hanging around a lot of dodgy-ass guys. Perfect. In a really, really funny area. This question's going to be perfect then. Great, go for it. What's the most trouble you remember getting in as a child? Oof, listen, there's lots.

Anything spring to mind? Yeah, stealing cars. Nice. Love that. Yes. Woo! Don't condone it anymore. I mean, no.

Just one time. Stealing one funny time was when I stole mum and dad's car. And then it was a manual and I had my mates in the back. And we had to jump start it because the steering wheel locked and I didn't know how to unlock it. And it got caught out in the middle of the road. So we, anyway, we had to push it all the way back down the road. Cops came and like got us out of the car.

I talked this absolute like smack and got us out of it. Oh, I bet you did. I was able to hustle and lie to these cops that my dad actually parked the car. The lights were on out the front. So I tried to move the car for him. And then the steering wheel locked. So I've gone to get the keys. Anyway, I just talked my way through it.

My mum and dad knew I was like out my ass when the like cops knocked at the front door. The cop bought it? Yeah, they bought it. Yeah, they always did. They always did. Did you get in trouble at home, though? Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay.

I, um, I pushed the boundaries. And mom and dad said this really, like, dad said this crazy thing at my 18th birthday. There's four boys in our family. But at my birthday, he said, Scott, we, like, Trav, he was so good at sport. He goes, I'll skip Scott. I'll come back to him.

Like 18th birthday party speech, right? Skip you. And he goes, Patrick, he was just always so, like, self-driven. And, you know, he was a, like a coordinator, a supervisor at Woolworths at the age of 14, Luke's so studious. Scott, we just let him go. And we just had to trust that he would come back.

That's perfect. I prefer that. So do I. And look at you now. Look at me now. But yeah, I copped her from mom and dad. I kind of, I pushed back pretty hard. I was a rebel.

That's good to hear. I can't say I'm that surprised. I'm not surprised. Okay, good. I kind of expected that. Yeah. I'm going to jump right ahead now to Marcus. Yes.

Where did you guys meet? Grindr. Get out. No. Yeah. We're the real true love grind and love story. Has grind ever reached out and been like, hey, you can be up posted children. No, but they should.

Yeah. If you're listening, Grindr. And again, be honest. Yep. Was it meant for a hookup or was it something more? So this is, this to me is profound. My therapist said to me, the next guy you hook up with on Grindr, how about no sex to the fifth date? And I was like, what?

What? Why? It doesn't make sense, right? And she was like, I feel like, you know, when you're hooking up with somebody and you shag and I'm a one-night stand, you've kind of gone to Mecca. Like, you've gotten everything from the person. How do you come back from that to figure out whether you like them as an actual person after you've had all of them?

She said, so, why don't you do it? I was like, all right, cool, I'll give this thing a shot. Sure enough, Marcus and I, like, we match, right, on Grindr, and he had this sass and ability to, like, match my energy. Usually I'd chew someone up and spin him out quick smart I'm like, all right, I'm just going to go around there and get this. But he had this ability to just keep going toe to toe with me. And I was like, fascinated by.

And then so I brought up this idea. I was like, hey, dude, like, listen, no sex to the fifth date. Like, are you in this? And he was like, absolutely. So. And he's like, damn it. Well, after date one, I was like, I'm not into this guy. I'm going to shag him.

I'm going to break the rules and I'm going to say see you later. And I went back to his place after date one and tried it on him and he was like, no, remember the rules. And I was like, oh, God damn it. So I'll have to stick out and do four more dates. And by the fifth date, I went, he did something for me and I went, wow, this is a guy I love. Wow. That's such a cool story.

My sister met on Tinder, her husband. And I love that story. And she fucked him on the first date. Yeah. How dare she? It still worked out, though. But it has, yeah, modern dating. is kind of like flipped.

It's very broken, I think. Yeah. I don't know how you really get to read a person anymore. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like I'm big on energy and you can suss a motherfucker out really quick smart. It's hard to do that just in a world now that is like, you know, receiving information in the first three seconds.

If you don't like what you see or hear in three seconds, you're on to the next. Yeah, you're not giving in someone a chance. The churn is. Yeah, we really know. I've been with my wife for 15 years. Yeah, I really fucking know, guys. When was it then, how long until you guys talked about the potential to start a family? I think we, listen, it would have been a couple of years in.

So many gay men, it was only, it was a dream, but not a tangible dream. It was a fantasy. Yeah. So you would lay there and you would talk about imagining. if you could have a family. And, you know, you have mates that have kids or you have family members that have kids. But it never, ever, ever felt like you would really be able to have it.

So you only fantasised about one day being dad. Did you know, like at that point, when you were fantasising, did you know of any same-sex couples who had children as your benchmark? There was one, there was one gay couple who I had heard of and seen. And I reached out to them, this was years later down the track, when Marcus and I thought, let's just like try the surrogacy thing. And, you know, I said to them,

hey, where should we start? Have you got any advice? And they said to me, every journey's different, good luck. That's it. Like, it's a secret. Yeah. That sucks.

It was more just, Marcus and I were big believers in you can't be where you can't see and paying it forward. And that was really disheartening to us. And so on the flip side, we've promised ourselves through our journey that we were going to make sure

that everyone and anyone that asked where to start or a question we'd always give them the time because it broke us when they couldn't give us their time. Wow. So when you guys are trying to figure out if the fantasy could be real, are you just Googling? What are your steps? You heard about it happening in America, right? Like the Motherland, like they were like, which is really fascinating because America is

conservative in a lot of ways. But then they're like the founding fathers of surrogacy. And, you know, you look at places like California, it's like, it was a no-brainer. Yeah. Like, if you, when you spoke to people or saw people on television and the spectrum is nuts. You're like the Bible Belt and then you've got. Yeah, yeah. Fascinating.

It's always very fascinating. Fascinating because our sons were born in Texas too, like, and halfway through the contract, they brought in the no abortion law. So it was like really, like lots of changes happened before. Full on. After we fantasised about being dads, we then went, oh, hang on, you could possibly look at doing it here in Australia, but if you do it, it's altruistic, which means there's no contract, there's nothing that binds it. Yeah. The surrogate would always be looked at as the biological mother.

Can they change their mind along the way? Yes. Is that what that is there's no binding so they can change their mind? Correct. Fuck. Okay. Roll the roll of dice. Right.

And that just didn't seem like something Marcus and I wanted and we, and I say this from a place of absolute privilege. we were able to go, that's not for us. Yeah. There's other routes, right? And one of the routes we'd heard of was that two-go dads could have twin children and one would be biologically one dad's, one would be biologically the others, but they would share the same egg donor. Wow.

And when I heard it, I was like, this is black market Chinese shit. Science is fucking crazy, to be honest. Like wild. Yeah, yeah. And I thought it was like under the table like, this is like, you don't say anything. and we can make it happen. Yeah. And we go to this surrogacy conference and there's...

In the States. No, in Australia. Oh, okay. But there were Americans and people from Georgia that came out. Ukraine was really big at that stage. It kind of moves around the world like where like surrogacy is like... The movement. Yes.

But then there's some that shut down. You hear of terrible stories like in Thailand, baby gammy, which was a very famous case where an Australian couple did surrogacy over there. They had twins. One was born with severe Down syndrome. They only took one twin home with them and left one behind. Oh, my God, wow. And the surrogate, that's not what they signed up for.

They signed up to cook the buns and then give you the bread, right? But not keep it. And so this poor, you know, woman then had to become a mother when she didn't actually want to be to a child that had severe, you know, disabilities. Oh, man. And so then countries and where it wasn't really regulated would step in and go, no more of this happening, you know, Western people or like, are taking advantage of some of our people.

And at this point, obviously you're kind of like working through, you know, what's possible and how it's going to happen. Are you, you and Mark is going, we definitely want kids? Or are you still kind of going, let's just see if it's possible first? We went to this conference and walked down and went, okay, we're going to be dads. It was, it was the first time ever we felt seen and heard and it was tangible and it could happen. Yeah. we realized that it was an industry and a global one

and that also we thought we were going to walk in there and it was just going to be full of gay guys, right? Rich gay guys were like, I'm going to, we're going to become dads now. But one beautiful thing we found during our journey was people that really want to be parents that can't be or can't conceive naturally

doesn't discriminate. There was, you know, girls that had had, you know, like cysts on their ovaries once when they were 16, that couldn't fall break. So it did. We found ourselves in a room of not people like us, but so many different people that all just wanted to become parents. And there were so many different avenues we could all take to become a mom or a dad or a parent.

So you come out of this conference. You've got this feeling of elation that you've decided that we want to be dads, which is a huge decision. And every dad, every parent, when they go through that, it's a tingly weird feeling, right? What's your next step there? You go, we're going to do this. We're doing it.

We want to do it. I can't wait. What happens next? We find ourselves a fertility clinic in the States. Find ourselves a fertility clinic here in Australia that can help facilitate getting our sperm over to the States. We find an egg donor agency. We find a surrogacy agency.

And then a whole lot of lawyers. Jesus. A lot of moving pieces in there. A lot of stakeholders. I just had sex with my wife. I know. A couple times. Do you know what, Marcus and I tried the bottle of red wine

and thrown the leg over many of the sides. Didn't work. That's why I stopped drinking, just didn't work. It's so fucking unfair, isn't it? Do you know what? It's not. And I appreciate you saying it, but it's not. It's just our reality.

Yeah. Right? And we never once in it played a victim and we didn't want to. We actually still even fine now, and it makes me emotional that we got what we got what we really wanted, right? And there's so many people still that haven't taken care. You got your fantasy.

We are privileged because we're able to create a family. Lots of people still can't. It's so crazy. Like, when you meet people, like for me, I was really lucky in my situation where it happened quite quickly. And it does happen. But then there's always complications in terms of it can take a while. I met a guy the other day and did a podcast with him,

who him and his wife have been trying for a year and a half. Which in the scheme of things, I would say, Oh, that's ages. But there's people trying for four, five, six years. Five, six years. And it's not, yeah, it's not fair, you know, in some, in some instances. Well, you guys would know this as dads, I'm sure. I've forgotten the six years.

The trauma, like the trauma and the contracts and the amount of 4 a.m. calls with people in Texas and the heartbreak and the news and the no news and the meetings, like, and the amount of money that was spent and the wants and. and the conversations we had, that's all gone now. It's a blur. I've forgotten it. And during it, you know, we had this process that we never complained into the circle. We could only complain out of the circle, like to friends and family,

but they could never complain to us about the process. Right. They could complain outside of the circle. And that was to kind of protect us. And then finally, when we had a surrogate to protect the surrogate that they didn't hear our frustrations. Of all those steps, was there one that was the hardest, like the most difficult puzzle, to put in. Yeah.

So let's say there's 20 steps, right? You, the IPs, intended parents, you are in control of 19 of them. You make 19 decisions. Yeah. The first 19. The last one is out of your control. The surrogate has to choose you. Okay.

And it makes so much sense. They have to, well, they put their body, their life on the line, right? And their family on hold to create a family for somebody else. They have to want to connect to you. to want to bring your family dreams to life, right? Yeah. Which makes a lot of sense when you really learn about it because it stops people of privilege

being able to buy the rights to a woman's body. Yeah. Right? That's where the regulation really comes in over in America. So the complication for us was COVID, we were, COVID had hit. And you had heard of, it's common for a pregnant woman to go on bed rest. But during COVID, family weren't allowed to go and visit you if you're in hospital. So if a woman was put on, a surrogate was put on bed rest for four or five weeks,

they were sitting in a hospital by themselves without their family being able to come and see them. So all of a sudden, surrogates said, hang on, we're not going to be surrogates during COVID. So there was this big shortage. And then so in that shortage, we were still hoping someone would pick us. So it just dragged it out. Is there anywhere along that process where you had the feeling of this is not going to happen? One time we, it was really hard. We were away and we got matched with a surrogate and we were like, oh my God, it's going to happen.

And we had the transfer date of when they were going to the fertility clinic. And to match with one, you know, meant a lot. You know, somebody emotionally saying, I'm going to bring your dreams. to life and you know the reality we're like four years in i think it was and then we get a call from the surrogacy agency the day of transfer and we're waiting to hear like you know the transfer embryo transfer went really well and we got told i hang on the surrogate actually um can't actually be your surrogate anymore and we were like what the fuck what do you mean what's happened they said oh we just found that the doctor whilst doing the transfer overheard her in conversation

say that she was on a medication which actually she didn't disclose to us which it goes against you being able to be a surrogate and we were like oh my God they went so back to the drawing board and hung up on us and we were like far out my god yeah so that that that really during the process that was when we were like

this took forever to get here and then it just disappeared like that can you describe that feeling you felt in that moment I looked at Marcus I can remember what we're in Bali I looked at Marcus and he was like you could tell he was like why I don't know what to do now and I knew exactly what I could do

and that was put a fucking email together and tear these motherfuckers to pieces right especially because when it's it was there was a lot of contracts throughout the process but at the end of the day I made it clear to them that you're working with people

that are really vulnerable and actually you kind of have to do your due diligence and this lies on you like you've taken us so far far down a road and then you've just pulled it away from us and you've just said oh well it happens back to the drawing board and and so the sensitivity around it you know I'm pretty optimistic I knew we would I took it as a bit of a sign that hang on there was something wrong there like that maybe it was a positive and a good thing but I saw my husband kind of go oh my god how much longer can

we just keep doing this yeah so then how was it when that took place to when you were able to lock in the surrogate that gave you the twins? So Amber came along, I would say, eight, nine months later. Okay. It's still a long time. And, you know, we've got, we had something like,

I think, 30 great embryos sitting waiting to go, right? Like, which is a wild number. And, um, we got Amber and she just... Oh, because sorry, you have your surrogate, she's getting the... The surrogate is not the... egg donor.

Yeah, she's got, we've had an egg donor who we've got, we were able to get 41 eggs from, wow, split down the middle, 20 was fertilized with Marcus's sperm, 21 fertilized with mine. And then they grow them to day five. And then in America, they tell you if it's a grade A, B or C or something. Yeah. And B or C, they do up to 3,000 something like a genetic disorder testing and they destroy any that are a level C, grade.

A is like, they say pretty much won't lead to any, you know, problems or miscarriages or whatever. And so we ended up, I think, with like 19 grade A embryos. Wow. Which is like, good number right? Fucking basketball team. Like totally.

Unheard of. So like, we got 41 eggs and the standard is five to six eggs. Wow. Yeah. You like tripled that. Yeah, she fucking superhuman. Our egg donor. And then. And your sperm? Can we give you sperm?

Can we give us? I don't know if you guys have spoken to a like a fertility clinic before about spil. I kind of want to quickly take you to this. I own sperm, Scott. I'm sorry if I'm like taking it all the way. No, no, go. We go to

an IVF clinic here to do, I don't know, the cum dump. Literally. That is a great day for it. Literally literally just like wank into a jar. It is what you've seen in the movies, right? They even gave a straight porn that I had to walk out. I was like,

really? Come on. Come on. What the fuck? I bring my own supply. And literally looked at my phone, right? Get her out of me! Get her out of it! And the fascinating thing is you can't use lube because it can contaminate. Oh, yeah.

I never do anywhere, so it's fine. Ah, there you go. And then this lady, we were like, you know, we were a bit worried, you know, what if? And she was, it was something like a character out of a movie. Like, imagine an, like, 65-year-old lady sitting behind a counter in a medical, like, you know, center with a durry in her mouth. She didn't have one, but it was like, she was. Classic receptionist.

And she's like, all you guys are the same. Let me tell you this. She said, I've been working in fertility for over 20 years. Eggs, women, they are so fragile and perfect. She said, when you put any man's sperm under a microscope and look at it, it's that dumb. It always fucking swims again into the side of the glass at the pantry dish, right? She's like, it's all the same.

Trust me, you'll be fine. She's like, now here's your jar. get in there kind of thing. I'm picturing the person from Mozart. Was that the Roski? Yes, that's who it was. Wasowski your semen scheme home? So, yeah, we're apparently, our sperm's perfect.

All of us, all of us guys, we rarely have problems. Oh, congratulations. I actually, I was like, I bet you he's been naughty before and I bet he was got great sperm. Yeah, yeah, I thought that. Yeah, that's the energy I was picking up on. And so then you lock in Amber, who you said before, do you kind of just let her do a thing?

she's in the States. Do you fly over? Do you have any contact with her while she's pregnant? We started what we call and we've still got the group chat, family group chat and it's called Modern Family. And you know, she would tell, we had to build a relationship because she's the person that's going to feel the first kick and decide whether to give you guys a call, like give us a call and take us on that journey and experience with her. Do you want those little nuggets along the way? Of course, right? Like you're like, we're pregnant. Oh my God. And you wait for the the six week and then you wait for the, you know, the nine week and the 12 week and all all these scans and updates. It's all a journey, isn't it? And do you know, you go, hang on, but this is

somebody else's life that's helping us out. So you've got to respect the boundary and what is the boundary. So you need to create it. And we were so weirdly lucky that when we matched with Amber at the end of the call, Marcus and I, you could tell we're kicking each other under the table. We're like, she's so cool. And we got to meet her partner and her kids came in right on this like Skype. And then she goes, I just got to see something. She's like, It just hit me. I love your TikToks. Oh, so good.

I was like, you tell me I've made it all the way to fucking Armourillo, Texas. That's amazing. But it was like, we never wanted that to be a part of why someone would want to carry our children. And it just hit her at the end. And she throughout the pregnancy, played like Martin Luke's podcast,

like for the boys to hear. Oh, that's nice. She asked us what our favorite songs were, so she could play music. The dream. Yeah, she really did a lot for us. Ash and I were taking this journey from a place of, like, a bit of naivity. But do you then go over and say, we'll be there in the country when you get birth?

So there's court orders, which is phenomenal that, like, America is just unbelievable with the court orders and contracts, right? That from birth, the babies are born with mine and Marcuses. There's a court order ready to go as soon as they're born, that they are born with our native. on their birth certificate, not the surrogate at all. That's crazy. Just because that would... And she has no rights at all to the babies. That if she did, it would be an amber alert, literally.

Huh. They would be like kidnapping. Yeah, yeah, right. If Marcus and I, we had a window. I can't remember what it was. But if we weren't there, they could become awarded to the state. Oh, my God. You've got to be there.

Yeah, you're the parents. You've got to fucking be there. Do you know how long that window was? I can't remember. what it was. But I do remember the surrogacy agency saying we can apply for an exemption to like, let's say they come and you guys can't be here in like a period of time. We would take responsibility for them for a period of time.

Because it could be early, could be late. Which and she did. They were two months early. They were two months preem. Oh my goodness. How many weeks? They were 31 weeks when they came. Yeah.

Which is not uncommon for twins, but it's pretty fucked up when you're two Aussie dads and you have to go to Amarillo, Texas. I've been. And what have you? Yeah. I stayed in the best western there at Amarillo. Fuck me, dead.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 2015. I do recall you went over, you were there for quite a while. Yeah. Can you talk us through that process? They come early. You're there.

You've obviously there. It's got your name. What happens next? We're so out of our depth. Yep. We're doing the best, I say this about every parent. We're doing the best we come with what we've got for sure. We have no idea what babies are and they're in these incubators and where it's overload

of information in a foreign place. We become reciprocates of support from the Ronald McDonald House who are like, it's here. We were like, oh no, we can't stay here. It's for people that need this. And they were like, it's for you guys. Like, it's a comfortable bed. it's a home away from home. You guys are going to be here for quite a while.

This is Ronald McDonald's House in the stale. Oh, wow. And, you know, they're like, it's right across the road from the hospital. You know, we were staying in the hospital next to the boys. One was really sad, actually. We would spend 15, 16 hours a day with them, right? And most other babies in that ward

didn't have any parents sitting with them. And so many were born to ward, like to the state. Yeah. And it was, it was, I said to Marcus one day about this young, this young baby girl. I said, don't let me see her because I'll apply for adoption. Like I could, and there was this terrible moment where a nurse referred to her as a bitch. This little bitch went shut up. This was a weak old baby that was born Prem, whose mother gave her up for whatever reasons.

Because she couldn't have an abortion. It's illegal, right? Yeah. And became a ward of the state. And I was like, what hope does this child have? when even the nurses are calling you a bitch at a day at a week in. And what's so annoying as well is knowing that there's so many people out there at these conferences who are desperate,

they have this fantasy of being parents. And then it's like, how can we not connect these children that desperately need parents to love them? And so we now look at it as it was a master class. It was a moment to bond with these boys that we didn't realize we were going to get because we thought, hang on, we've got to get some babies, we'll come home and we'll fucking keep work. and we'll, we'll figure the rest out.

Yeah. And now in hindsight, which is beautiful, we got a master class in babies. So you've got the best people around you, these doctors and directors of the ward and that that would come and see how much time Mark Snow was spending there. And they loved it. They're like, this is so rare.

And so they taught us, they brought us in tune together. Every movement, sound, everything that the boys started to make and do and these mini milestones they have to make to graduate out of Nike is wild, right? The amount of work this baby has to do is fascinating. And there's nothing you can really do other than try and give it your energy and love and whatever.

And they did end up graduating, but we can't believe people are given a baby after two days and sent home. And so since that we go, it was a master class and we knew exactly what the boys needed when, where, why and how. because for five weeks, 15 hours a day, we were supported by nurses and doctors that were telling us everything about a baby. That's amazing.

Did you ever have any guilt as a parent? Like I always think for those nine months that, you know, with Marley and for Lola, my two girls, when I'm waiting for them to arrive in this world and I'm like, oh my God, I cannot wait to meet them. And it's amazing. For me, childbirth was great. I'm like, for me.

It actually went better than I expected. It was easy. But then I get the guilt where I'm like, Like, when the moments where it's so hard and I'm like, I should be loving this because I wanted this so bad. And now that I've got it, I'm not enjoying every second. But for you, you've gone on this journey of, you know, years and years and years and years. And having twins, I kind of found them how hard that would be. But in the moments where you're not enjoying it, how are you dealing with the guilt? The first four months, we had to, we had to feed the boys every three

hours. But it took an hour and a half to do the both of them. Oh, yes. So every, hour and a half, we had to start again. It's through the night. So it was a 12 a.m. 3 a.m. 6 a. 9 a.m. 12 p.m. 3 p.m. 6 p.m. 9 p.m. back to It's exhausting, isn't it? Right? And it took an hour and a half to do, to took 45 minutes to do one baby because ultra-prem babies, um, if a feed has to take, they have to take X amount of calories in over 30 minutes. If every minute over the 30 minutes completely counteracts what they've just done because of the

depletion of energy they've used. Oh my goodness. So there's this pressure on you to do that and then you have to birth them a certain way for X amount of time because they're not developed yet, right, to be able to do what a term baby can do. Yeah. So it takes far more time. So it was an hour and a half to do both boys and then an hour and a half later you had to start again.

And there were these nights, no lie. And it was 3 a.m. and it was my gig. And I was like cooked, like beyond. And it was, it sounds so cliche and weird, right? But there was this star that I could see every single night looking out of the window. And I would think to myself, I'm so not alone. And I've got so many people around us, like we're privileged. We've got good family and friends and a network.

And I would look at this star and I was like, there's parents, probably mothers, doing this by themselves. I had everything at my disposal. And that, that was. was like what got me through it that I was like I'm actually really lucky we got everything we wanted it's hard it's frustrating this is fucking tiring is yeah fuck right but I was like this there's someone else out here doing a feed by themselves with no support right now that might be looking at that star and there was just I don't know a connection I had with it and you're right

there's so many people out there that don't have the support in the network as dads and as parents we sometimes we take those moments for granted that hang on to me minute, like people are really battling to have what I have. And it's really hard to see that sometimes. And we are just doing the best we can with what we've got. I truly believe it, right? And that just told me I wasn't alone, right? And it can feel so lonely. You guys know this is parents. Every parent does, right? Like the pros and cons and the pressure it can put on the relationship and yourself. But, you know, it's a moment in time. And you're not alone in it, even though you might feel it.

So find that one thing that might connect you to somebody else when you really feel alone. Yeah, wow. And when you look at the type of dad that you are now, are the twins they ate, nine months? No, they're 18 months. Oh, shit. Yeah, so are you the type of dad now that when you were fantasizing

about being a parent, do they match up? Yeah. Yeah. I love therapy, right? And my therapist, one day I said to her, is this the same one that said, don't fuck for five dates? No, a different one.

You've got to evolve. That one fired me. You've got to involve therapy. I said, you know, I have this idea of the type of dad I want to be, but I'm scared of the dad I know I'm going to be, which is a helicopter parent. I'll find it hard to share them or let them go, right, to some people. She said, well, like, you have to work on the type of person you want to be.

You have to actually do the work to be the parent you want to be. It's not just going to come to you. Yeah. So I had to very early, actively make myself uncomfortable as a dad by allowing my boys to be with other people who do the things that I thought I was a bit frightened of. And now I'm like, there's just a coolest little fucking cats. Like, we hang out.

Like, they were eating ants on the floor the other day with me. And it was just like, there's these moments of like, oh, I got a bird at the park. And like the three of us are fascinated together. And I'm like, this was it. This is exactly everything I wanted it. And it's so profound sometimes that you don't realize it to get in the car after the session. You're like, holy.

So there's times like for me where I've always sort of felt somewhat isolated as a child growing up. And then now it's sort of strode into my, I feel like I always have to be around people. And my therapist said, you've got a little best friend now. Do you not understand that? Yeah, okay. That whatever you say, they're like, fuck yeah. Yeah, I'm in. They're like right or die.

I remember that sentence. And I get in the car and I was like, I fucking cried, dude, because I was like, I can't believe I took that for granted. And I didn't know it was right there. I promised Bobby Beckett, vocally, the other day, promised him, like, as your dad, I said, as your dad, I promise you, mate, I'm never going to tell you, you're too much. Because he has this zest of energy in life that you just see already,

which is just the excitement he has of the world around him. He's just going to run head first in. to the world with it and whereas you know over to oliver here's the most considered human being i've ever come across as well and but i my whole life having full energy was always told shut up you're too much be quiet and just always put in this corner and there was this moment the other day i looked at bobby becker and i went uh my job is your dad is to 100% make sure like i let you really be the best version of you i'm never going to tell you too much yeah i love that I love that so much, yeah.

We were speaking in the car, driving here about the fact that for yourself, two loving dads, obviously no mum in the picture because Amber doesn't play that role. Yeah. Is that something that plays on your mind as a dad now? It's funny to say that. I had this. I'm going to fucking cry again. I didn't think I was going to want to this car.

Sorry, sorry. Do people cry on your podcast? Yes, I know all the time. All the time. Oh, good. Matt keeps trying to get me to cry. But I've just wired differently. Just getting back to therapy.

I've got two girls. I'm emotional. Beautiful. No, beautiful. Beautiful. And I had this moment. I don't know if you guys have come across her. Oh, what's her name?

Fucking miss something. She's American. Not Miss Rachel. Miss Rachel. Yeah. God, look on your face then. Do tell. I had this moment.

And it was caught on cat. It was just organic and natural. And the boys, they, they haven't really liked television or connected to anything, I'm just flicking and I'm scrolling and they just go super silent. And they are like hooked to Miss Rachel. She's never come on before. But they have just stopped in sync and they're listening to it, right? And I was like, oh my God, it's fascinating. We've found a show to fucking like that I can use to distract them if I need it. Right. And next second, she starts going, okay, now let's say, I love you, Mama. I love you, Mama. And I'm going,

Oh my fucking God I'm like I wasn't ready for this And I'm looking at the boys And they're like they can pick up everything really quick So once I'm saying mommy mommy And I'm like oh my God Anyway I'm like Look that girl has a mom

Right like oh how cool right Like trying to just throw it off And anyway I was like get this bitch off my television I just gonna fuck shit up too early for me I was a read out of this conversation And then I put the boys in the bath later on and I start crying. I bore my eyes out right because I'm like,

I have a really good mum. And I realize that my boys are never going to have a mum. And then I felt guilty that have brought kids into this world that aren't ever going to have a mum. They got two really great dads, but they're never going to experience what I did in a mum. And I shared that as well. And I quickly fucking kicked myself up the ass and picked myself up

and I kept moving. And what I got was this beautiful, And I never look for validation from others, but I share parts of myself. And people were like, I had one mom and one dad and they were both disappointments. Scott, your kids don't just have one great dad. They've got two incredible dads, like far more than what I ever had. And there was this beautiful, beautiful sense of like, I think, respect I got or people held up a mirror to me in that moment. I was like, all right, cool, pick yourself up.

They're going to be fine. But, you know, I think it comes from. I come from a loving family that I went, oh, my God, my boys, I'm. I'm going to miss out on something I loved having, which is a good mum. These boys have two dads that absolutely loved them so much. And you said something before where you said, I'm never ever going to tell you that you're too much. I want you to be you.

And that is something that no one else other than two loving parents can give them. And congratulations for that. Because sitting with you for 45 minutes, you can tell how fucking passionate you are about these two humans that you've... They are so lucky. Spent so long to bring in to the... the world and then when they grow up and they're like, I'm going to have the coolest fucking dads

in the world. I just can't wait. Like, Luke tells this great story. Our egg donor is 6'6. She plays volleyball for America and is an Ivy League scholar. Right? Well, you're going to get them into a sports school immediately. So, listen,

they're going to be giants. They already are, right? I just have this nightmare before they were born that I'd carry them as babies under both arms and their legs were dragged. The boys are 18 months and they're already like an 82 two centimeters tall. I thought you're six foot three.

And they're two months preemie and they're already like, wow. They're going to be fuck a monsters. And Luke says this great story to somebody the other week. He goes, I just fast forward. And in like 15 years time, 20 years time, like they'll be playing professional basketball or something, right? And then the other people on the team will be like, who is that little lady screaming

on the sidelines? And it looks like there's going to be these two giant kids are going to be like, that's our dad. Yeah. And it's like me on the sidelines And they're just going to be the proudest Like biggest giants on the fucking team They are two very lucky kids

Yeah, but we're lucky parents too Wow That has one more question Conscious that we're going to get Some vanilla ice cream And bolognese into you Very very sure You've earned it

So one last question When the boys are grown up And they've moved out of home They're no longer living under your roof What is the one thing you want them to remember About the house they grew up in? Oh my God I think that they were allowed.

They were allowed. And that means allowed to be their true self, that they were in a place that was of no judgment and nothing but support. And I came from that home, but in a different generation, different time that where generational and like societal norms really greatly affected you, right?

And so minor marcus's, yeah, like dream and promise is that they're never going to carry the burden of what society, you know. What mold they should have fit into it? Yeah, not in our house. Like, that doesn't exist in our house. So I want them to know that they can always, always truly 100% be themselves and not be affected by whatever anyone else around them thinks. That's an amazing, amazing answer.

And thank you so much. I know we've been trying to get you on for a long time. I think it was a perfect moment and I'm really grateful, like, for this time too. Thank you so much, mate. I appreciate it. Been a bloody joy. Thanks, fellas. I often complain, Ash, about parenting.

When I say often, I mean, daily. I was going to say hourly. But it is really nice to speak to someone else, another parent, to put into perspective how lucky we are considering we didn't have to go through six years of trying of going through a minefield to try and just be a, to try and just be a parent. It's literally a roller coaster. Like the patience on both of them, there are so many people that probably just give up just because they lose hope, but it just goes to show if you're persistent enough

and you really want that, then, you know, it can come true. So amazing chat, there's laughs, people cried, not me this time. Not yet. Not yet. Do I dare say it? Do I dare say one of my favorite? episodes. Oh yeah, it was great chat. It was so like organic and like funny and there's some laughs, some lulls. I liked him before. I love him now. Yeah, and his

brother's also a very good fellow. Let's not forget about Luke. Luke, I'll have kids. Get on the podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a little review. Five stars. Send it to a friend or you can join us. We're on socials, Matt. On social media at two doting dads on Instagram, TikTok. There is also YouTube, not for these apps, but the Wednesday episodes. Ignore me. I'm confusing you. But leave it. review. There we go. Perfect. Nailed it. See ya. Bye. Bye. Two Doting Dance podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders,

past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today.