Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #178 Picky Eaters, Breastfeeding Nightmares and A Divvy Van with Wholesome by Sarah

Episode Date: October 19, 2025

Wholesome by Sarah is the absolute queen of keeping family meals real! She knows exactly how to keep the kids happy, from picky eaters and beige diets to sneaking in a few veggies into your kids' bellies.  Sarah is mum to three daughters and shares the household and business load with her husband. She gets into the raw pain she experienced after breastfeeding that landed her in the emergency, why she's sick of the "hands-on-dad" myth and how she gets her kids to eat all of their dinner.  Buy Wholesome By Sarah's book!  https://wholesomebysarah.com.au/family-food-cookbook  BUY OUR SMELLY T SHIRTS HERE  https://www.twodotingdads.com/category/all-products Buy our book, which is now available in-store! https://www.penguin.com.au/books/two-doting-dads-9781761346552  If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ash, Matthew, what is the one thing that you look after in your household, would you say? It was dinner at one point. That's a lie. That's not anymore. Is it really? No, April's taken over. What happened? I just got lazy.

What did you put garlic and everything? She's like, I've got a parasite. Kids are like, fuck this is garlicky? Yeah, what's that? Is this garlic again? Well, after today's guest, things are about to change. You'll be putting that chef hat right back on because we've got wholesome Sarah. Is that right?

She's the queen of keeping family meals real, but don't be fooled by the name. She wasn't always so wholesome. Is that right? Let's just say she had a run-in with the cops, a divvy van, and a piece of lingerie that wasn't exactly paid for. Now I'm the same. Holesome with a criminal record, my kind of guest. No, she is very wholesome. We talk about the pressure of breastfeeding.

of the hands-on dad and why equality in parenting is way overdue. So let's get into it. Let's do it. Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mum. I'm Maddie Jay. I'm Ash. And I'm Sarah. And this is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good. It is the bad and the relatable now say we have of late been accidentally putting out some advice if you hear ash and myself give advice we would love it if you would pull us up on it and tell us just shout up sure yeah you are absolutely fine to give advice loophole yeah we can't I actually need to apologize what type of advice but yeah but how cold my house is oh I love the

cold great yeah we're sitting long sleeve your short sleeve oh I'm quite warm It's bombing in here. Yeah. I was, because I've just put, I got a bit excited. I put the heat under the house. And now, because I've done that, it's now a bit of a cold snap. But I forget you're from the Arctic. Yes, totally.

Melbourne used to it and love the cold. Winter is my favorite season. Cool it down in here. I'll open the fridge and freezer. Now we start off asking, I guess, a very important question. And that question is, do you recall the most trouble you ever got in as a child? I do know you ask this question because I listened to the podcast.

So I did have a bit of a pre-pre-prepared answer. And I thought, am I going to say this? Yes, you are? I think I'm a psycho. Who did you murder? No, I used to, as a teenager, shoplift. And a lot. And I think I had like a problem, clearly.

And it went over several years and even some of my best mates that I used to, they'd be there with me and they'd turn white, cold and be like, oh, no, pounder, don't. She's at it again. And I'd do it. And then I got caught towards, thank goodness, a girlfriend and I had gone into Target. And we'd put all a whole lot of bras and undies under. So you go into the change rooms. You put them all under.

I'm probably just giving young people, you know, some tips out. They're like, go on. And you put them all under your clothes in the change rooms and then you just walk out. Anyway, we walked out and this woman from Target walked out. And I remember my friend at the time looking back with this smirk. like, yes, we did it. We got through. And she sort of tap, tap, tapped me on the shoulder and said,

can you please come upstairs to the Target office? And I just was like, because my parents were quite strict. Yeah. So I was like, oh, I am dead. Yeah. So went down, the police came to the shopping centre. Oh my God. Handcuffed us.

This is, we were 16 year old girls. Like, anyway, handcuffed us. We had to walk through the center. Oh my God. You got handcuffed. I know. Put in the back of a divvy van and go to Malvern police. station and my dad came and collected me and he was in a suit from work and the way I remember it like it was yesterday the way he looked at me was just like I am so ashamed

and he didn't talk and he just said we got in the car and he went you wait till you get home and your mother's going to do with you and I was just like and I was grounded for a term no phone no friends nothing and when I was grounded you weren't allowed to do it wasn't like oh you're grounded but you know you're allowed to go on the street nothing for a term and then I never stole again so wow can I ask I think the hand huffing thing is like part of the humiliation. That's a nice touch. Yeah.

Is it needed? If I was a cop, I'd be doing that. I'd be like walking toddlers out and they're bloody anched up. Totally. I think it sends the message home. And you were six, at 16, I had a girlfriend that used to steal stuff too.

And I was kind of into it. I was going to say. Were you stealing for a particular reason? I don't know. I think it was, I think it was that's real. And I think it was just, I was,

I'm one of five kids, but I definitely just had the other four, I'm not like, they're boring ass. No, they're not. But they just, they're always like, God, you were just naughty. You just like to, you know, I didn't get scared of, although that kind of that situation did scare me a little bit just with the cops.

Well, if you were 17, isn't that? No, she was 16. 17. No, but if you're 17, isn't that? Well, they said that I had a five-year bond, which I actually found out later was rubbish. Mom and Dad just said that to scare me as well so that I didn't keep, good, good, good, yeah. So that's like, if you steal again within five years, you can be at, well, I don't know. It's a life sentence.

25's alive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it was like you can be charged. And that freaked the hell out of me. So I just didn't do it again. Which it worked. I think 17 in some states. It's like New South Wales is 17.

Queensland's 18. I don't want to talk about it anymore. This is coming from a place of experience. Yeah, I was about saying, how do you move this? I live a life of petty crime, okay? She comes down to Melbourne. We're riddled with it at the moment. We've recently picked up stealing again, actually, yeah.

Sarah, you remind me a lot of my wife. Oh, okay. Go on. There's a lot of, not looks wise, but I mean, you've got three kids, three girls. Three girls? We're on the cusp of having our third girl. Laura's actually about to walk into the house any second, by the way. She's getting her hair done.

And can't split them. Can't split them. Well, she's pregnant. That's true. That's one big difference. But both running your own business, it is such a tricky decision to make when is the right time to have kids, when you have your own business, because you don't have the luxury of just switching off from work. Do you remember how you decided it was a right time to have kids?

Yeah, I feel like I was scared for quite a few years. Like I didn't put off because I also felt within, I'd been with my husband forever, but we were 17 when we got together and we didn't have our first till I just turned 30. So it had been a long time and I just felt ready, but it was so scary thinking about work. At the time, I had a catering company in Melbourne and it was just sort of like, I'm the only one cooking in here. There were no processes. There were nothing. So I sort of thought, you take me out and there's kind of, Tom cook? Is that your husband? He's not too bad. He's actually not too bad. But again, like, you know, your husband's not going to step into chef roll at a caterer. He's not at catering level, Matthew. He's like, he's like, he's

He's like the basics at home, he's pretty good. Yeah, yeah. And like, can you feed 100 people? What? Yeah, yeah, although he did. Anyway, that's another story. Very supportive and real was really good in the end with all the big functions. But yeah, it was, it was pretty petrifying.

But what I, and it was such a long time ago now, eight years. But I do remember once I did take the plunge and just do it. I was like, just start trying for a baby and see what happens. Got pregnant quite quickly, which was really lucky. And then it was a bit like, well, you don't really have a choice. So then ended up hiring my first. sort of chef and different people within the business. And it turned out to be the best thing ever because it actually forced me out to work on

the business and kind of put processes in place to run it without just me there all the time. Yeah, because it'd be really hard to like, especially a growing business to set the processes when you're in the trenches cooking and you can't, because you're all concentrating on that. And then it'll be hard for you to switch off from that to finishing a big catering job and then to go home and then start to think about how you're going to have. Yeah, definitely. So, you just never had the time. In saying that, I never switched off. So once, when I had all three girls, um, Lil and Peno, my first two, I was, I still had the catering company. I was still working straight away. And how long, roughly, like had the laptop in the hospital. Wow.

It's Laura. Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering where you were going with that. But then I'm like, I'll realize now. Um, and I think that's a number of factors. I think it is when you build something up yourself, you're a bit scared, not to let go, but you just sort of, you want to keep that control, I guess, in a sense and know what's going on and you don't want to fully take yourself out. But also, I do think it's now that I'm a bit older, I had a little, it was funny because my third didn't have the catering company anymore. It was destroyed during COVID, but it was actually the one that I took the most time off with, which you'd think would be the other way around. But I think, yeah, like I sort of had two weeks of nothing at the start.

And I was like, wow, this is bliss, like to not have to think about, you know, it was sort of. For like one of a better word. Yeah. Careful with the word holiday. Go for him, guys. I didn't say that. I did not say that. I did not say that.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you could focus on the one thing instead of like trying to split your mind over like. And, you know, there's the anxiety of if you, you know, you never know what your night's going to look like with a newborn or even a young child. So it sort of took out that. for a small period of time because I was back working within two weeks. But it did take out that, you know, when you go to bed at night being like, oh my God, I've got to do that big thing tomorrow. But I don't know how much sleep I'm going to get again.

And that's then going to, you know, it's all going to trickle on to your performance. And so, yeah. The more anxious you are as well, the harder it is to get to sleep. Exactly. Like it's just a real. I've got six hours. Yeah, yeah. I got four hours.

If I keep looking at the clock, it's just going to go down until I've got zero. So, yeah, I feel like I got used to it. And then I, often now, because we're done with babies, and I'm like, do I regret not putting more in place to kind of just give, and I, do you know what, I don't even have an answer to that yet, because I'm like, I know me and I'm just that personality where I've loved working, I've loved having my own career, I've loved, there's pros and cons definitely, but it's, I don't know, I'd maybe ask me in 10 years and I might be like, oh, I wish I had a little bit more, but I also don't love the newborn stage.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. I just was never I've got girlfriends that are like I love that stage it's just you know all wrapped up and I'm just like I was never I was like kind of and everyone's like

don't wish it away I'm like I kind of want to wish it away I'm still wishing it away I'm like wishing they'd move out I mean yeah I'm conscious of the fact that you should never like want to rush through any phase of parenting because once it's fucking gone it's gone forever

shut up but I do recall someone holding a new newborn and being like, you could just stare at them for hours. And I was like, pretty? Yeah, yeah. What are you looking at? I guess.

What did you find the hardest thing about the newborn phase? Definitely breastfeeding with all three. Hated it, felt the pressure, wasn't good at it. Just hated it. It didn't come easy to me. I'm going to be really stupid here. Okay. Don't be silly.

When you say you weren't good at it, What do you mean by that? Well, my, I got blocked ducks really easily. So it just, it didn't, I always thought, and again, this was, you know, nine years ago, before I had my first baby, I was like, I will be so, like, I'll just be fine with breastfeeding. I'm a chilled person. It will just come naturally to me. I know what I'm like.

I don't get too anxious over things. It'll be fine. And it just was the total opposite. And it was also lack of information that, you know, now I've got three younger sisters. And so I'll sort of say to them, just do, which I used to be like, I don't need to know a thing. I'll just roll into it. But I think with Lil, if I had have known more about breastfeeding,

I got very sick. So had mastitis three or four times, which is quite common. Yeah. But then the fourth. That's a block of the... It's pretty much. It's an infection. It can get bad, though.

It can get really bad, which for me it did. But it can either just be a local sort of infection that you get a really sore boob and it's inflamed and whatever. And whatever you can get full fever and whatever. But in my case, went a bit beyond that, and it turned into an abscess, so, which is just like a big infection. Wow. And so, yeah, which I just didn't know any of this, and I feel like if I had have known,

anyway, went to the GP because I had this very red boob, like, was, I didn't feel well, I was in bed. And so they're like, how old was your? She was five weeks old. Wow. So really little. And then went to the GP and they're like, oh, that's not great. But then they told me to, which was just, oh, they told me to go to a physio to get ultrasound to

break down. Anyway, so when it did that, and at this point, Go and see a dentist. Totally. It was just really, when I look back on, I'm like, that was so screwed up how they told me to do that. It was bright, red, inflamed, big. And they've said, you know, and even the woman who ultrasounded, it was like, it looks quite infected, so go home and rest. Anyway, that night went to emergency, so they drained it and just locally, you know, stuck some needles in and then took out this whole lot of infected pus. And then they said, you should feel relief. They were great. you should feel relief, go home tonight and rest.

Anyway, that night, it got worse and was like a golf ball, went back into emergency and then had to have breast surgery the next morning. Holy shit. Yeah, and so all of this was just a bit of like a, okay, all right, I'll just go with it. And, you know, Lil was five weeks old. And when they're that little, they're still feeding every two to three hours. They're so dependent on you for that. So then, yeah, had the surgery.

It was so funny. I remember, because Tom, my husband stayed home with Lil that night. And I think that's probably, I can't remember if we'd introduce formula for a feed already. But anyway, I went to the emergency with my sister and we sat to, which was fine, but we had to stay in the emergency section the whole night. And we just had this non-a who was next to us in a shared bed that was farting all night. And so Lise and I was sharing this tiny, my sister and I was sharing this tiny single bed. And I was just like, fuck, like, I have to have this breast surgery in the morning.

But we were laughing out here. Yeah, this woman that was just like, coughing and splattering and farting. Oh, no, no. So that was actually kind of nice because it kind of, you know, made it a bit humorous. It could be a really dumb question. Oh, I can't ask it.

Go on. Yeah, go. No dumb questions, although there are. If you're infected on this side, can you still feed on this side? Yes. Totally great question. And do you know what's even, I'll go one step further, which I hate, still hate the arrogant surgeon that did my breast.

I have an issue with surgeons. Anyway, they are assholes. They are assholes, generally, generally. We're not going to attack the medical professionals anymore. I don't say, generally. Are they rural? Are they rural surgeons? Because we hate them the most.

No, this was in a city. But he, no, I just, sometimes I'm like, oh, you just don't. You haven't put yourself in the woman's shoes of five-week-old baby, first-time mum, the stress this would have. So I had the surgery, which was quite full on. I had this packing that went really deep because the infection was like deep behind my nipple. Jesus.

So he came in to do, like, his check, you know, a day or two later. I can't remember. And he was like, yeah, so it all went well, you know, you should be fine. But you should be able to keep feeding out of that boob. And I was like, oh, okay, yep. So here's me, this hormonal, like, new mom that's just wanting to do the best for a child. So I keep trying to feed. I had milk coming out the wound at the top of my breast.

Oh, my fucking God. And, yeah. I was not prepared for this conversation. I just ate. I'm sorry. And the surgeon's like, yeah, yeah,

like you'll be fine. Keep feeding breast is best. All he sees his money. He's like, I'm going to do that again. Wow. I know. So I persisted until it nearly broke me.

And then my husband, my mom, my mother-in-law, and my maternal nurse, which God lover, were all like stop. An intervention. Yeah,

you need to stop. And I'm like, like, like this nutcase of, but you know, I think a lot of women out there will understand the pressure that you feel to breastfeed. It's really messed up.

Yeah. What do you, when you're not able to do something that you think would have been so natural, what does that do to your mindset? What kind of place you in? I just think, again, it was so long ago now, but at the time, I just felt really like, it wasn't like, because I'm not usually a person that's like, I've failed as a mother, but like it really did sort of play with. your mindset of, well, this isn't how it's meant to be. Like, why can't I do a simple thing like feeding my own baby? Like, I just don't understand. Was it like a sense of failure?

Yeah. And then also, you know, to try and persist. And this happened with both, because I had mastitis with my second. It didn't go to an abscess, thank God. But then with my, with my 30 year ago, I didn't have any mastitis, but I hated breastfeeding anyway. So I made just my own choice to stop breastfeeding. But even in that, so, you know, having. children over eight years, I'm 37 or whatever. And even when, like I said to my husband, I can't do this any more work so stressful, like the breastfeeding. I don't enjoy it. It takes so long. And he was like, well, you know what? Why don't you change over to formula? And I was like, oh, I just, I can't like. And anyway, we made the decision why I made the decision to do it. So he was

helping me wean off it. Even when my body could still make the milk, even though I'd made the decision, I'd be like, maybe I should just go back to feeding. Maybe I should start pumping again to get my supply up. And he was like, says, you know that our babies are fine, our previous to have been fine. I know, but I just, and then as soon as your body can't make it, fine. Like, love formula, it's the best. It's really screwed up how it just plays with your mind. And do you think, like, there was, do you think there's external pressure for mums to

have to breastfeed, do you think? I think so. But it's so funny you say that because I've never been one to give a shit about what other people think, in some senses. But with that, I was always, I didn't think I cared. But maybe, you know, just from societal norms and cultural norms for so long. Just subconscious. Maybe I do think that, you know, because I'd find myself justifying it to people.

If they're like, oh, you know, are you feeding? Are you breastfeeding? I'd be like, oh, no, formula feed. But I had an abscess. It's like, I had an asshole surgeon who got me open. He was smoking during the surgery. It was weird. Because I can imagine like, yeah, like there's so much pressure on mum's.

already and then we have a segment in our show where it's like what not to say to mums or parents sorry to be correct that and one that does pop up is like oh so you didn't breastfeed like it's like it's like it's like it's like you've done the wrong thing yes when it's always going to be different there's always going to be different circumstances there's always going to be different yeah different things that can happen along the way or after laura's milk just shut off yes yeah after a few months it just like she just ran dry yeah and i mean i was it's disappointing for me as a parent. He was like, oh, it's thirsty.

Because, you know, as a dad in that scenario, it just meant I had to do more work. I was about to say, yeah, yeah. When you start doing the bottle feeding. But I enjoyed it. Totally. Yeah. No, I've got mates, like guy mates that are like,

just loved when the breastfeeding was there because, man, I didn't have to get up in the night and do anything. I'm like, yes, yes, exactly fucking right. I was like, just try the other bit once more time. Yeah, yeah. I would like get up. I think with Oscar at my firstborn, I would, I think the lack of education for me around the whole having a baby thing, I just thought I, I just thought I didn't want

able to be up alone. Yes. But like the advice I was given was just don't talk. You know what I mean? And then it got to a point where we were just both tired and then it was like we had the conversation. But then with my second, because you obviously pick up things and what not to do, for the first six months, like I said, I slept in the lounge room so that I could just be right there.

and then there was not me in the way, really. Because a lot of times it would be like... Ash moved out. Totally. I still haven't gone back. He was in to state. I'm doing this for you, babe. So that you have peace in the home at night.

Yeah. How was Tom during all of this? He was great. He's like a... It's so funny. I have to be careful with my words here because I was about to say hands-on dad, but I'm a person that advocates not to say that

so that it becomes normal to be a 50-50 parent. For sure. He's awesome. He just, he really enjoys, I mean, no one enjoys being sleep deprived or, but even like the hospital instance, I was in hospital for six nights. So he had Lily at home every night and that was sort of like a real introduction because he was doing all night feeds. I was at the time pumping in hospital and then he'd bring her in in the morning until we decided, until I decided to stop breastfeeding. But he's very good. He's always been on feeds like all, even when I was breastfeeding early days for all three. We do a formula feed

because we love formula and he'd always want to do it. He'd always do like the late night. Let me go to bed for seven hours and I do the one in the middle. Like he's just always been pretty on board. Wants to be involved, likes it, doesn't complain. Like, yeah. Did he have any green flags before you had kids where you thought, okay, this is a sign this guy is going to be a good.

His dad's pretty good. So that I feel like he's. The previous generation. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like that's a pretty good sign. Like his dad's, he's French, but he's also very like,

not that it matters about... So that makes him a good dad, no. He just was always pretty hands-on. Like, even when, you know, we've been going out for so long, so I saw it for many years and heard stories of how he used to change nappies and do all that. So I was like, wow, that's pretty...

And I love my dad to death, but did not change one of our five nappies ever. My dad's a better parent to my kids than he was to meet. Yeah, yes. Totally. Yeah? Same.

What is that? What's the deal with that? Yeah. I think it's just... I feel like grandparents, I've heard a lot, it's different being a grandparent than a parent because you're like more relaxed, you realize the cycle of life, like you're more grateful because you're not in the side, you know, the knuckace, like, you can leave.

You can also leave. Why do you dislike the term hands-on parent? Well, it's just, yeah, so I get, I always go into this a little bit because I've got to chip on my shoulder about it. Let's find out. That is. It's just, I get told all the time how lucky I am, because. because Tom's so hands-on.

And it just shits me because I'm like, what so, and there's a million things that run through my head. But firstly, and not that everyone has to both work full-time, but in our case, and everyone's case is different, we both work full-time. So I don't see why it's so odd to see that he parents like full-time with me. Yeah, I guess he's not receiving the same commentary of like, you're so lucky that Sarah works.

Totally. And when do you ever hear the comment? of like about mums being hands on you're such a hands on mum sarah like it just doesn't exist because it's expected yeah so it's just it's just this idea that and then it shits me as well because i'm like he's not a good dad he's actually just a good dad because he's a good human so it sort of stems back to you know it's it's a lot of the time yeah women that do more with their children that say to me oh you're just so lucky because tom does so much i'm like well we kind of 50-50 parent so it's not like he's doing more or I'm laying on the couch just chilling out like

it just yeah it shits me because it's this whole notion of like it also just undermines men even more for wanting to be you know more involved with their children it's like yeah I think like when I when when we were expecting our first child I never any of this stuff never occurred to me so I just got up and did what I thought I had to do which was we both both had this kid, right? So this is our kid. It's not your kid and I'm just here to help. You're not a hands-on mum. You're right. That doesn't exist because you are just mom. So why can't dad just be dad? Yeah. And why does he have to get praise because he does school drop off? Because it's really hard. Do you know what? I hate school drop off. So I actually agree with that.

But yeah, it's just a funny. And then I'm like often his extension of being a good father, which he is, he's a wonderful father. But that's just because he's a good human. And so he is a considerate person. He's loving. He's caring. He's nurturing. He gives a shit about how his kids, not saying people don't if they're not hands on, but he gives a shit about how his three girls are going to grow up in the world. So he wants to be there and around them. And he gets, and I'm not just saying this. He often says this to me. He gets pure joy just out of hanging out with them, like getting outside doing fun shit. It's not a chore for him. But I think that just comes back to who he is as a person, as opposed to like being trained to be a good dad, or I've

skept it out like this this guy that's just going to do everything that I don't want to do in parenting or whatever so it's yeah I just I think that we need to kind of also raise the ignore my dog yeah for the listeners Laura's ruin the podcast episode by rudely coming back from her hair cut and pointing out the washing that you didn't put away she did say max let's put away I said I don't have to ask me three times and and also I just said I don't know what you're talking about because I didn't want to get a whole Yeah, yeah. Because she was like, hey, it's just so you know.

I was like, no, no, no, no. What? You get dragged. Not me, no, me. Don't talk to me. Sorry. Where well. Okay, so you were saying that you hate it when people say you're lucky to have.

A hands on dad. A hands on dad. What would you prefer, how would you prefer people to refer to this, like that situation? I don't know. It's probably not even a title I want him to have. I think it's just more people to have the view and the lens that having a partnership is more, like, is normal, as opposed. to, you know, mum being primary caregiver and it always defaulting back to the mum and the dad's

the helper or, you know, I used to infuriate me when guys would say, oh, well, I'm babysitting this Saturday night. I'd be like, oh, my God, are you fucking kidding. They're your children. I always do that to give up, just to stir April up, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's sort of like, oh, my God, are we, we're in 2025, how can people be thinking like that? Just because the woman carried the baby, it does not mean that she should.

And it's, it's very, it's very, because it's such a touchy subject for people, it's very dependent on everyone's personal situation. And in our case, we both do work full time. So I get really not upset, but like agitated when people are like, you're so lucky because, you know, Tom will turn up at school three mornings a week as opposed to my two. And I'm like, Jesus, like, are we really there? Do we want to break down every role that we do in the home?

So how did you guys get there in dividing up who does what when it comes to being apparent? Yeah, good question. It's such a blurred line where you are both just juggling. Yeah. Like, did you have to sit down and say, hey, you're going to do A, B, and C, and I'll do the rest? Not really. I feel like we just fell into, because most of the time when I go to do school drop off, I'm late every time.

There's shit left ever. I leave the lunchboxes at home. And I think Tom's just like, I like to do it and I'm better at it. So I'll do it. Fair enough. And I'm like, okay, great. But I think we didn't ever sit down and, you know, divvy up. I think we just naturally fell.

And we've been together such a long time. But I weirdly am like to young people every now and then, I'm like, you should, which sounds so ridiculous, but you should try and have a conversation with your partner before you have kids about, which it's so hard because once you have a child, it changes everything. And even what you said before you had your first baby will be different to when you have it. But have a conversation about, you know, the woman's career or how you want that to change or what you might think the next year looks like.

And I don't know, I just feel like people go into having their first baby blind, which most of us do when that's guilty. Yes, guilty. I did the same. Yeah. I felt like I did the same. And then after the baby we came, it was like, oh, give me a go of that. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just felt like by putting myself in the position where it's like, I'd never changed a nappy in my life. Yeah, yeah. And it was like, day one, I'm like, give me a go. Yeah. And then it was like, oh, I can, you know, I can do this and whatever. And I, and like, I don't, yeah, I'd never thought about it.

It was like, yeah, hands on it. I was just doing it because it was there. Yes. I was to be done. Oh, it was a bit. I could tell us about it. We had to, we, Laura had to come to say, like you being a bit fucking useless. Shot to the ego.

But now. Yeah. When you look back at, because you're very experienced now with three children, when you look back at the early days of parenting, breastfeeding aside, is there anything that you look back on and go, God, I was doing things so stupidly? Oh, God. I wish I'd done things differently. Lots of things, but I'm like, God, it was such a long time.

ago then I'm like it's a blur yeah it is kind of a blur like and eight years as well like you sort of I don't know my best mate's about to have her first baby and I've been thinking about it a lot lately because I'm like what what do I tell her like what advice do I give good luck you're gonna be fucked yeah no but it's just a bit like everyone's so different like I'm sure I'd have 10 but it's not like I'm saying I was a perfect parent no fucking way but I'm like I can't think of one at the minute but I'm like you just I feel like you yeah you you sort of just adapt yeah as best as you can like you said it's going to be so different yes for every kid's different and every situation's going to be different it's hard to like give it overarching advice yeah definitely I think you just like

just do I think and we say it a lot in this pocket just do the best you can absolutely and also just give yourself a break I think at times like you know it's um it's such a full and that's what I've because I'm having three daughters myself now, I've said to myself, like, I've ingrained this in my brain of time will pass and you'll forget so much of the early days. Like, you know, we're still kind of in it with Elia, our third now, who's 15 months old. But, you know, you get older, you've done it two times before. You kind of, it's not as significant as the first time.

But I'm like, just don't forget how hard it is when you have that first baby to be particularly a female with the hormones, with the like, what the fuck am I doing? I don't know what the hell's going on. Like, you know, who am I as a person anymore? You totally lose your identity for however long until you work out, you know, how to get it back or what you want to do.

But I'm like, just don't forget, you know, because you do get a lot of the older mum comments that are like, oh, sleep when the baby sleeps and like all that annoying, shitty advice that you're just like, fuck off. When the baby sleeps, I've got one hour to clean the house, do this, do this, do this, do this. Yeah, run the business.

I'm like, I'm not sleeping like, and also I'm so highly strung that I can't. So it's just sort of like just be there and be supportive and, you know, anything you need I can do and just don't forget. And I have to think about this often with my three younger sisters as well when they're going to get pregnant and also my best mate, but also my three daughters in however many years time that is, if they decide to have children of like, just be there and be a nice support.

Don't give annoying advice. Yeah, yeah. Just like, turn up, do some washing, you know, take the baby out for a walk, whatever. And just remember that the new mom hormonal brain is pretty fucked up. I can't wait. Yeah, you're on the edge of it. I'm really selling it again for you. I know I'm thinking, oh my God.

You'll be okay. That wasn't in the braced position before I am now. I want to talk about transitioning from having your own catering company to then being, I'm going to call your social media superstar. You've got a millie, millie followers. A million followers on Instagram is unbelievable. When did you know that you're onto a winner with social media? So I started the Instagram account during COVID when my business had sort of been closed

because in Victoria we had long, long lockdowns and yeah, sort of started but still had my catering company alongside it. So I just sort of did it out of the love of food and cooking and I sort of thought I'm just going to start an account and start filming recipes and put them out there. It was when Reels had just started and it was actually my husband. We sat down because I was just flat as a towel. I was like, oh, my God, I can't run my business. I can't plan.

And he was sort of like, I was like, I want to buy a camera and start filming these recipes. And he was like, well, these reels seem to be going off. And we both had a chat. And I was like, yep, I'm going to do it. And then it wasn't until about, I still, until I started posting consistently, so daily, that I always tell this story that I was in a Woolies, like I sort of posted a recipe and then got my trolley, was walking around Woolies. And my phone just started to be like, ding, ding, ding.

And I was sort of like, oh, don't really know what's going on here. And then pulled it out. It was sort of the first one of my videos that had gone viral. Do you remember which one it was? It was a chickpea avocado mix. I feel like, it's something I could do. Yeah, five ingredients, super easy. Five, do it.

Too many for me, thank you. You said chickpea and avocado. I know, sorry, with 11 and easy things. Okay, good. People forget that before Reels started, you couldn't really have a post go viral because it was just the people that followed you. Yeah. So I actually feel like.

it was harder for people to build a following before Reels started because they had to find you or hear of you and literally search you to then, you know, follow you. For you to be on that Explore page back yeah. It was only people with already big accounts that were already known. People was really hard. Yes. To crack in. Unless it was spam. Yeah. But yeah, like Reels are sort of pushing your stuff out to the masses. Yeah, yeah. So that was kind of the first point. And then from then it just, I've started are growing really quickly and I was a bit like, oh, okay, it wasn't a huge surprise to me because I'm not going to sit here and be like, my recipes are shit, but I was surprised in the benefit that it gave people. I was quite like, I got all these beautiful, lovely messages of people like,

oh my God, I'd lost my bazans in the kitchen and then I started cooking your food and I loved it and you've got me back in the kitchen or the kids are eating the dinner and all of this sort of stuff. I was like, oh, this is happening at like the supermarket? Well, no, this is more just over like weeks, you know. And also like at that time, COVID, people had so much time on their hands. Yes, definitely. Everyone was cooking the sourdough, you know, making their sourdough, bread. We always say, like, there's so many good things that came out of.

Yes. I miss it. I'm going to be honest. I miss it because I wouldn't do, I wouldn't be doing what I do now. Yeah. It's incredible. Probably same as you. Totally.

Because you would have just been like, I want to build my catering business. But you had to shift your focus to, to the environment that we were living in. Totally. Yeah. Definitely. And I feel like that's exactly right. It was a blessing in disguise because at the time it felt terrible because it was sort of, and I had two lease spaces in the city in Melbourne that were just like draining money.

And so I was super stressful. I was also pregnant with Penny, my second daughter. So at the time it felt terrible. But then, you know, you kind of see the silver lining and what's happened from it. And it's like, oh, it kind of worked out. And you would have provided, like you're saying, you have people coming out to you saying, I found my spark at the kitchen. You would have so many people that you have like provided.

It's, one, entertainment, and two, like a new purpose in that moment. Yeah, and also just people, yeah, I just sort of, I didn't take my cooking for granted, but I didn't think that it would give what it gives people. And that's what's really nice. Like, I got stopped on a flight recently, and this beautiful air hostess was like, hello, Sarah. And anyway, I said hello. And then as I was leaving the plane, she said, oh, my daughter during COVID was really sick

with an eating disorder, and then we found you, oh, my God, I'm almost about to get teary. but she was like, and she's learned to eat really well again and she's got really healthy and she's now 100%. And I was just a bit like, oh, wow, like that's the thing. You know, I sort of think, you know, only nurses and doctors and stuff like that can and have that life-changing kind of effect. So it was just, you know, things like that are just like, oh, wow. You know, I really just took my cooking for granted.

Yeah, it gives you an extra spurs. Yeah, oh, totally. I just, yeah, left that plane. And I was like, I feel a million bucks. Yeah. Can I say my tea, please? You've been taking a while. No, no, no.

It was on the way out. She was just beautiful. So, yeah, it's lovely messages like that and feedback that you get. And you're like, oh, wow, this is so worth it. So coming from a guy who's only got about three recipes in his repertoire, where do you get your inspiration from to keep coming up with new recipes? I get asked this all the time, actually. And I don't have a really good answer.

It's just, I guess that in a non-arragant way is my skill. Like, it's just what I love to do. I obviously love cookbooks, love cooking magazines, love cooking shows. Online now is so amazing, you know, social media and stuff like that for food creation. But I just can always come up with different recipes. It's what I really love to do. And it does help when you love doing it. Yeah.

It's hard to come up with things when you hate doing it. Totally. And when it comes, like my father-in-law, Gilles, the Frenchie, he's always like, says, I don't understand. Like, how can you just keep coming up with them? I'm like, they just, appear in my brain. I don't know. Like, I'll see an ingredient and that and that and I'll have a sort of idea and then give it a go and sometimes it works. Most of the time without sounding

like a dick, it works because I've done this all my life. But that is just, and that's the thing I often say, I'm like, whatever you guys do, and you know, because people are like, wow, you're really good at it. I'm like, but you're really good at what you do in your job. It just so happens that cooking is something that everyone has to do every day that they think that I'm really amazing. but I'm like it's actually just my skill. It is a skill to know what two things or what several things are going to be like when they're together.

That's what rattles me the most. I'm like, okay, someone was like, you've put two things together. I don't know what's going to taste like. Ash is there putting too much. Totally, I'm thinking of the combinations. And he's like, who would have known

who would never have. It tastes are terrible. She's just starving right now going, Dad, please. Not everything's a joke about me. I think if I, I think it's a big skill to be able to be like, okay, well, I know what those, like honey and peanut butter. I know what that's going to taste like, but that's about it.

Yes, it's like thinking of the combinations that are going to work together is tricky. And it's, you know, this is so fun to make jokes at my expense. I would never. How do you apply that skill to then your parenting, like when you're trying to come up with hacks to make eating, easier with your own kids? Yeah, look, hacks are interesting because I've got a lot of them, but I'm very careful to give, you know, like try this with your three-year-old that's only eating, you know, this and this and this, because it's not always going to work. Like, that's what's so hard. If there was an answer to picky eaters, we would know it by now.

And we would be like, cool, got the answer, my child eats broccoli and capsicum and all of this stuff now. So it's, my biggest one is, I'm always like, it starts with you as annoying as that sounds, but like you are the model to your child. So it's like, you need to be eating well, you need to be talking positively about food. And when I mean positively about food, it's not connecting it to weight, not talking about good and bad foods, that kind of thing. Because I feel like it's all ingrained from us from a very young age, our attitudes towards, you know, different foods and especially for females that it can create such unhealthy sort of, you know, go down the path of eating disorders and all of that sort of jazz. It all starts

from when they're a young child and the way we talk about it. But then, yeah, different things. What beige eaters? Oh, yeah, the beige diet. beige eaters just love everything white. And most parents would be like, oh, yeah, my child's been through that stage.

But it's been by white. So like white bread, white rice, pasta, chippies. Am I on this diet? Is this my diet you're talking about? You're like beige diet, yeah. So for those who like the beige foods, how can you sneak in a couple of veggies?

Yes. I always say, and I love veggies, but it's another annoying answer. It's a long haul game. So you're not going to get your quick fix overnight. It's about patience and persistence. And it's sort of, there's little things I do. So they'll always tend to like one veggie. Like you can pretty much say, oh, I know Penno likes capsicam, Lil likes broccoli. So it's like serving them new veggies alongside what you know that they like and you know that they're going to eat. So it's not forcing them to eat it. It's sort of. of like put it out and annoyingly research shows that it can take 15 to 20 exposures of a particular vegetable before they start eating it. And that's so annoying to hear as parents because you're just like, fuck, like getting dinner on the table is enough. Like, and then I've got to change up the ways to cook it and keep giving it even though she keeps throwing it on the floor and going, yuck, like, but it's just a long haul game. So it is about serving it next to familiar foods, changing it up the way that you cook it, you know, oven, pan, fry, microwave, whatever you want to do, but just sticking with it and, you know, keep going over many, many,

many years. It's fine because Marley, she loves cook carrot. Lola has to have it raw. Yeah. And it's annoying because all kids are different. But that's like adults, right? So I'm always like, they're not trying to be annoying to you. They're not trying to be little assholes.

It's just like sometimes. But it's like most adults have preferences with what they don't and do like. And I'm not saying if you do those. sorts of things. They're going to love every vegetable when they're older. It's just not the case because adults don't. But it sort of is a way to kind of over years build those healthy habits. It should be the chef's final test to challenge your kids diet. I reckon that's the final, you can't be chef unless you can do that. Yeah. Because I feel like you said you've got to fry it, steam it, saute it, mash it. I'm like, oh, where's the microwave come in?

I do love a microwave. So many veggies have been microwaved in our house. Love it. There's nothing wrong with a microwave. That's how you cook veggies. Totally. But also it's like have you ever had like cauliflower, for example, now I'm getting really into the nitty-gritty, but just maybe not for a two-year-old or three-year-old because they're just going to be like yuck. But have you ever had cauliflower roasted with just olive oil, salt and pepper in the oven?

Delicious. Delicious. You have to do it for me and let me know. Collie flour is pretty beige. Yeah, but that's what I'm, yeah, it is quite beige. But you just change up the way you cook. it delicious. Okay. So it's just all those little things and another really quick little tip I love to do. So when you get them home from like school or daycare or kinder or whatever it is

and you're like, fuck, they're starving, they're grumpy. I always like to, and you know what they like. Don't put pressure on trying to expose them. Like it is about exposure over many years, but on a random Tuesday night, just give them what they like. But chop up a whole lot of, I always chop up carrot, celery, cucumber, capsicum, put it on a plate while you're cooking dinner and don't put any pressure on it. That's the other thing. You're not sitting there saying, eat three of those. I like that. And usually when they're hungry, they'll just sort of pop it on the thing while they're dancing around or watching some TV or playing. And they'll sort of watch.

Yeah, just a little eye. And usually they'll have two or three pieces, whatever. And you're like, great, now I don't have to pressure them at dinner time to eat their veggies. I love the, it's done. Yeah, it's very good. It's just like a non, yeah, takes the pressure off everyone. I love it when it's like, they're like, I'm hungry. You know, like, have a carrot. I don't like that. And I go, you must have be that hungry. then. Yeah. That gets them.

Does that just shut them up and turn them into a good little child? Yeah. They don't love it and following you. Oh, damn. Give me the carrot. So one question we always end on. When your girls are all grown up and they're no longer living at home, what is the one thing you would want them to remember about the house they grew up in?

Oh, God. This one will often get me emotional too. I think, all lots of things, but. I just think fun is, I mean, obviously loving and supportive and happy home. I think, you know, the relationship you have with your partner is so important to show children, like as much as you can because we all have bad days, but a healthy relationship so that me with particularly having three females so that they know what to expect when they grow up and they have high standards for their partner, boy or girl.

but I think just joy and fun. I think, you know, dance. It is sometimes Tom and I get into the, you know, with having our own businesses and everything like that, you can be like, oh God, okay, tonight routine, like, you know, Sunday night routine, get your clothes out, do all that. And lately, especially lately, I've just sort of been like,

oh, we just don't have to do that every night. We can. And we do dance a lot. Our girls love music, so we'll have it on for an hour every night and we just are stupid and dance. So it's just, I want them to remember that, their household, their childhood household was full of joy and fun and laughter. Laughter is so, so important.

Great answer. You make me feel guilty for being like, put your shoes on this. Oh, I do that. Find the balance. Yeah, find the balance. How many is asking you, can you please put your shoes on pedal? Can you please put your shoes on pedo? Every time.

Hey, I'm holding something very special. It came in the mail recently. This is your second cookbook. Yes, it is my second cookbook, family food. Sorry, are you going to ask a question? I was just about to take up. I was wondering, are there any recipes in that book that may be two novices, myself and Ash, keeping in mind we do have a bit of a sweet tooth that we could cook.

It's easy, it's simple. Oh yeah, I've got a couple actually. What are you thinking? Brownies come to mind, but there's also a one bowl blueberry and coconut like bread loaf thing that you just throw it all into a bowl, tip it into a tin, put it in the in the oven, and there you go. Throwing in tipping, that sounds about right. That's my cooking skills. really easy.

You've got a souffle. Lost me. Let's try and do that. We'll put it on our social. So if people do want to get that recipe, they'll have a watch. But if they do want to get their hands-on family food, where should they pick one up from?

So you can get them from all, I mean, you can just jump on my Instagram. It's in my bio link, all the places you can buy. But anywhere online, Amazon, you know, or any of... Actually. What's the lady? Wheel of Fortune. But also, you know, any social.

Stores, Target, Kmart, Big W, lots of beautiful. I'm always... But if you go to Target, make sure you pay for it. Oh, yeah. Don't shove it in your bag and walk out. We'll also put a link to it in those shows. Totally. And also small independent bookstores, because I'm a big one for small businesses.

So if you've got a local bookstore, definitely try and get it from there too. I love it. Well, thank you so much. No worries. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I can't wait to cook.

Yeah. I'm going to toss and throw and go from there. Pour? Yeah. Just bang it in there. Ash, Matt. Before we go, we are going to do a recipe with Holsom by Sarah. We have a delicious little blueberry bread cake with drizzle icing.

We're going to put that on our socials. But before we go, if you have enjoyed this episode, we would absolutely love it. Love it to death. Love it with both hands. Love it like a criminal wood flow. If you would just please for the love of God, Give us a review, okay?

Just a couple of words. You're getting real begggy over there. Well, I've been polite, and the listeners, they're not giving us the reviews. Well, that, you know, threatening them really well. They're just taking the episodes and they're leaving us with nothing. Anyway, if you want to join us on social, where can they find us, Matt? At two dotting dads on TikTok, Instagram, and there is a Facebook group. Also, not the guest episodes, but the Wednesday episodes, full episodes are now on YouTube.

Stay later. And we'll, yeah, we'll go. Thank you for listening. Thank you. Goodbye. Two Doting Dance podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today.