Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #184 Newborn and child Sleep Specialist Sarah Clifton

Episode Date: November 16, 2025

The dads are running off fumes this week! Sleep expert (and founder of SwoopBaby) Sarah Clifton joins us to answer all your burning questions about kids and sleep. From night wakes to nap strikes and the dark art of keeping your child out of your bed, Sarah has your answers! Learn more about Swoop Baby here: https://swoopbaby.com/ Buy our book, which is now available in-store! https://www.penguin.com.au/books/two-doting-dads-9781761346552  If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ash, look at me. Look at me. I want to see your face. I want to see your eyes. Okay. You've got a couple little bags under there. Are you getting enough sleep? Yeah. Yeah. How are you sleeping? How are the kids sleeping more important? I usually sleep on my back. I'm a front sleeper. I know you are. I was shocked. You know when we shared a bed. Yeah. You just on my pillow. You wake up with pink eye. My kids right now, though, I do think, look, we've not had any help at all.

An external help. No sleep specialist has come into this household. now. I know, first time. And I do, it's, I would say it's one of my biggest regrets. You know, not getting, not getting the help when it's needed. If you sprain your ankle, you go to a physio. I just elevate it. Right. If you have a headache, you go to the doctor. I just take some penalty. If you can, all right, legend. And if your kids aren't sleeping, a lot of parents, myself included, we just battle it out. You need to put your ego aside and let someone in your house and help you out. There's no, there's no award. All right. If you get to the finish line, you finish the job of parenting, and you go, I've never seen a sleep

specialist, you don't get anything for it. There's no trophy. There's no medal. There should be. Well, no, there's not. They shouldn't be. You need to get help, get support. It takes a village, for God's sake. Well said. But we have a sleep specialist. Very first time in this household, it is a family member of mine, Sarah Clifton, who was the founder of Swoop Baby. And she's here to tell us all the information that we need as parents of young little ones, how to get them to sleep, Oh, I can't wait for this. Shall we just dive straight into it? Let's swoop into it. Welcome back to two dotting dads and one doting mum. I'm Maddie J. I'm Ash.

And I'm Sarah. And this is a podcast all about. parenting, it is the good, it is the bad. And the relatable. No, we don't often, I think often, we don't really ever give advice, but this is one of the few episodes where we actually have an expert. Yeah, me, thank me, thank you. No, a real expert. Would you call yourself a sleep specialist? What's your official title? Yeah, baby and toddler sleep specialist. So once I get past the totalist stage, you're like, I'm not interested. As anyone ever said, like, we're to six-year-old and you're like,

Too odd. Do you have someone you can pass them on to? We're like, well, this guy goes from 6 to 11 and so on and so forth. No. You think by that stage that they're sleeping, right? Yeah, I hope so. But no, look, the strategies for 3-year-old same as 5-year-old, same as 6-year-old. There you go.

Yeah, we can certainly give advice and, yeah, hopefully help you out. I have a burning question. Okay, now you do know Matt personally, but I would like to know for you, what's the most trouble as a child that you got into? Oh, first thing that comes to mind is probably when I was a teenager. Went to boarding school in Sydney and anyway, all my parents... Is it like day release or is that prison? That's prison.

That's prison. It was a lot of fun because we get into the Sydney life. You're from Orange. More long, yes. So, fuck. No, it's 30Ks west of Orange. So yeah. I apologize.

We do for context. Sarah is the younger sister. of my sister's husband. Wow, that's a mouthful. Fuck, is that right? Sister-in-law. That's what I say. Yeah, that's easy.

So I should know that. I swear it was orange. So I'm learning already. Because we had the wedding there, maybe. That's why it's thrown me. I love how we just ran out of town name, so we started giving them colours. That's right, you've got to go past yellow to get the orange.

And if you go past orange and you hear purple, you've gone too far. Well, was Sydney like a dawn as a team? Was it daunting coming from Mowloong? I mean, it's the big smoke in the country. Like, Mowong, there was 1,500 people in the town. So, yeah, this one time we, Mom and Dad were down, and we used to stay at this little house in Freshie. And Mom and Dad were always very good with us.

Like, they just trusted us. We had a lot of rope. Like, they were very fair, and we kind of weren't too naughty. But this, you know, mum used to take us to, like, we'd have a fake ID. She was okay with that. They'd take us to the wall. a bit bar, pick us up later. Love that.

Anyway. Producer Jess was like, what? And I was also a bit like, call the cops. How, can I just really quickly? How did you get the fake idea? So it was one of the girls, the older girls at school.

Looked similar. Yeah, we used to do that too. I feel like we got long hair. It's easy. We had one, we had one of the boys was a couple of years at two years older than us and we all used the same idea every pub. Yeah. You just had a, we just would pass it in and out of them.

Yeah, that's great. And often they're like, oh, yep. They don't give me shit. You look trustworthy. Come on in. Yeah. And I think we're probably 17. Anyway, I was with one of my besties.

And we used to go to Wollibaba meet Bill and his friends. I don't think they were there this night, but met these two guys. And we had a couple of marguies and we thought, oh, they were like quite a bit older. And we pretend that we're a bit older and we're fashion designers and I don't know. One thing later to know, we're like, oh, you can come back in state ours if you want. Come back to fresh year. And they were like, oh, yeah, that was pretty good idea. They were best mates.

How far, where you were, what freshies, how far is that? So it's a good 30 minute. Uber. Yeah, it's an investment. It's an investment. Oh, that we're all going for. Anyway, we went back. They didn't realize that we were staying with my parents.

So we weren't actually 23. We were more probably 17. And we had one bedroom with two single bunk beds. And nothing obviously happened. But woke up in the morning and my sister came in. And she's like, oh, Sarah, mom and dad want you downstairs. And I was like, oh, yeah. Like trying to be cool and still probably a bit tips here.

I was like, oh, yeah, yeah. And she said, oh, no, I wouldn't be smiling if I was you. And I was like, oh, went downstairs and dad's like, um, who's in the bedroom? And I was like, oh, and then it started getting very awkward because I actually... The boys were still... The boys were in the bedroom. Holy shit.

Did you know that? Yes, we brought them home, but like, we weren't even thinking nothing happened, but we were just like, oh my gosh. You're 17, you've got... Random men. Yes. So it wasn't, it wasn't, and it was pretty honest. Like, my dad was shocked that I'd even done this.

And, and, but anyway, so it was, it got, it started getting a bit embarrassing because I didn't even know their names. Oh, my God. So we, so dad was like, Sarah, you need to get up there. They need to go. And I said, I know, but is it right if we drive them to the ferry? They're from could she. Oh, God.

You're not taking them anywhere. Dad was like, no, you won't be driving them anywhere. you can walk them to the bus stop. And anyway, so I had to go up, Bill was there. He was ever sticking a lot of mileage out of this one. I bet. So went upstairs and my friend Hales. I was like, guys, we've got to go.

Anyway, my dad and my mom, my sister, my brother, all downstairs just waiting for us to come down. And I'm like, the walk of shame couldn't introduce them. Didn't know their name. Yeah, anyway, one of the guys tried to shake my dad's hand. And my brother's like, mind your head on the way out, mate. Like, and my dad's like, yeah, nice sort of way to meet you. Anyway

At least he was polite to shake the hand Try at least Yeah We walked up to bus and me And my friend had to say I'm like What were even thinking? What were you thinking Sarah?

I just had no Anyway we've got them here now Come on out fellas Went back home My brother's like Sarah Like he looked like Spike from Notting Hill Like obviously like just not A bit disheveled

So yeah it wasn't It wasn't our best move And obviously like yeah Nothing happened But it was just one of those, like, wasn't thinking, whatever, yeah. And we were like, yeah, we felt really bad. That's good parenting, I think. I would have just been erratic.

Yeah. Get the fuck out of my house. They were pretty good about it. Like, Daph wasn't, he wasn't impressed. But they were, and we felt terrible. I just remember we wrote them a letter. Because, like, they did the lot for us. You're just trying to be nice.

Well, that was it honestly, like, but it was just like one of those. Yeah, yeah. You look back and go, why did I even do that? Yeah. Now, so you used to work, I'd say advertising, but how do you transition from working in the world of marketing and advertising to then becoming a sleep specialist? So it all happened when I had Wolfie. A lot of people would say to me, oh, Sarah, you're going to find that first year of motherhood

really tough. And even mum, she was like, you love your sleep, you're going to find it really challenging. So it was something I really wanted to learn more about and kind of set us up for success in in that respect. So I just did a lot of research on sleep, kind of found my groove more easily than I expected. And that fourth trimester, the first three months was pretty good. I'd just put a few of those things in place that I was reading about and then just started passing on that knowledge. And swaddling was a big thing for me. I was very passionate about swaddling. And I believe that really set the boys up for success. So I wanted to make these swallows because I had big

boys and I couldn't find swallows that were big enough to hold. And so that was kind of where it started. I was thinking more product business and then thought, do you know what, I'm going to do the baby and toddler-sleep consulting courses, thought leadership for the product business and loved it. And yeah, just started passing on that knowledge and doing it on the side. So when you get a new customer and you have a look at their child, like, what's step one? You're like, what's wrong with this thing? We sleep trained from four months.

Prior to that, it's nightnannying. So we're just there to give parents respite, take care of the baby overnight while you sleep. But with sleep training from four months or sleep conditioning, we look at, we ask that you fill in a client intake form and understand more about the sleep environment because sometimes it's quick wins with the sleep environment that can have a massive impact on their sleep. Also feeding and nutrition is a big one. And I'm sure what you've found with Poppy recently, if you can get the feeding right and well established, they're going to sleep much better. And the timing of those feeds is really important in sleep. And even as toddlers, like the food they're eating in nutrition

impacts their sleep. So that's... a big one and a question that I always ask. And then how are they getting to sleep currently? There's lots of different associations that they might need. And we want to encourage babies to fall asleep independently. You know, all babies wake overnight. But if they're not missing an association, they're able to roll over and go back to sleep. But if they're being fed to sleep or rock to sleep in your arms, co-sleeping, they wake up and their environment's changed, that's when they're really alarmed and need to call out for you to help them get back to sleep. There's conflicting reports. And there's so many different people putting out

information online. I've read on one hand, it's best to look at the cues for the baby or toddler to show, indicate that it's tired. You kind of take that lead to them, put them into their sleep routine. Then other times you have to kind of force them into a sleep routine before they're actually tired. Is it a case of you need to spoon feed the child their sleep routine or is it best to kind of flow the cues to let the toddler know when they're tired? Toddlers, yeah, lots of conflicting information out there and it makes it really hard. for parents to know what to do. And I find if you, you know, you do one thing and then you do another thing, and then all of a sudden your baby's very confused and it doesn't know what

it's doing. With newborns for Poppy, like the first six weeks, you just want to focus on that bonding time and that connection and you can't get in bad habits. So it's fine to, like, during the day, have a sleep in my arms? Yes, absolutely fine to do that. Cuddles, all that, like, no problem. I would say when it's no longer working for you, we change things. But from six weeks, I was very routine driven and I loved a routine because I felt it gave. me flexibility. Sleep is a physiological need. We need to ensure they're getting enough sleep. If they get good sleep in the day, they're going to sleep better at night. So being well across their wake windows is key. And you think, oh, like, six weeks. What's the wake windows?

It's one hour, 15 to one hour and a half. That's it. It's not much, is it? Especially they feed most of that. And they feed most of that. So that includes feed and settle. And that's where I find a lot of the challenge comes from because often babies are kept up longer than that. They then become overtired, deregulated cortisol, adrenaline, pulmonary. it makes it harder for them to sleep and stay asleep and that's when he starts seeing the 30 minute. So sleep induces sleep. Sleep, mate, sleep.

Sleep. Told you. What about during the day? Like at night time obviously the room is nice and quiet and there's not a lot of noise but then during the day I'm kind of busy. Laura's busy. There's a lot going on. There's external noise.

Things happening at the moment poppy's only probably sleeping like 30 minute blocks during the day. Is that normal or should I be more focused? focus on giving her a better sleep environment to sleep longer. Yeah, so it is good if you can work on longer naps. But again, babies are very unpredictable at this age. So you do what you can, like if you can, focus on resettling, even just for one of those naps,

because that'll definitely set her up for success. And once she starts having longer naps, she's going to be sleeping better at night as well. Just to go of track here a little bit, when you have your baby, you're in the hospital, and they're in the nursery, in the hospital, all the lights are on. And it's like, you know, like you, they do that.

Then you come home and you're expected to make your sleep environment and more comfortable. Do we keep the lights on and play lots of banging noise? Yeah. Then they're like more robust. A lot of beeping. Yeah. Like in hospitals.

Yeah. Well, when they're newborns, like it doesn't matter. Like the first six weeks. First six weeks, not a problem. But from then on, look, they've got the maternal melatonin in the first three weeks. From the mum. And then that weighs off. And then not until about eight weeks.

They start producing their, own melatonin and you really want a nice dark environment to help support that melatonin production and yet light signals to the brain it's time to be awake so getting a nice dark environment is good if your baby's not sleeping well and i'm not always like oh it's got to be black out and you've got to have the white nose but if the baby's not sleeping well these sort of little things certainly help because that's my worry and we've been away with friends before and they're like well little timmy well only sleep if it's like quiet as a mouse you can hear a pin drop we need to black out every single source of light so it's like black black and i'm like oh for god's sake just

i can let him sleep wherever like if you make it is that am i correct in assuming that if you make it too particular that's hard to replicate outside of home you're setting yourself up for a tricky time you know you can take portable black out if they're really reliant on it and again everybody's different but if you've created that space you can take the portable black out you can definitely take the portable white noise you take their usual comforts to sling back or the swaddle, their little comfort of the dummy, whatever, and replicate that for them and you'd probably bet a chance of them having good sleep when they're on holidays. So, yeah.

April did that. Whenever we'd travel or anything, it would be, there'd be a whole bag of things that was like to make sure that she can replicate it. And now we are thankful that that she did that. Yeah. Well, they're just that little powerful sleep cues and they'll tell the baby, yeah, it's time to sleep and it's time to wind down. And so having those is, yeah, really helpful.

So from six weeks, the wake period is between an hour and a bit to hour and 30. Yeah. When does that start to lengthen? So 12 weeks, then, you'd be looking at an hour and a half to an hour of 45. Yep. Four months is about two hours. Five months, two hours, 15, six months, two and a half hours. And that's when, like, I like to try and get them on a routine by that point.

By how many weeks? Definitely by six months. I mean, babies thrive on routine. You can start getting them in a routine from six weeks. If you like, gentle routine following wake windows. from four to six months like a schedule for the three naps is good and it's about wake windows but also like you've got a good guide on okay the nap one should be at 930 nap two usually that lunchtime 1231ish and then the third power nap on the go at about 430 to 5

I want to shorten my kids wake windows now I would like to go backwards I'd like them to be awake less yeah yeah yeah yeah so that is it four and six yeah yeah yeah If you are adhering to those sleep times and then you're getting the environment sorted as well and you're ticking those boxes but you're still struggling. At what point do you then think as a parent or maybe I need help here and then when do you then go from a sleep consultant to then getting like help from a GP? So yeah, we obviously look at the behavioural side of sleep but there's definitely physical, I guess red flags that you would be looking for.

We would recommend seeing a paediatrician. In the early, early weeks, like the first three months, like you want the baby feeding well and putting on good weight. So if they're not doing that, that's a bit of a flag. If you're finding them really hard to settle and they're inconsolable, you know, there is, colloqu is a thing. But, you know, if you're stressed, if you're stressed and it's, then it's definitely worth seeing a pediatrician.

When they're older, if they're snoring, if they're mouth breathing, if they've got constant ear infections or tonsillitis, like those sort of things can lead to sleep apnea. For example, that's more physical stuff. So we'd always refer that out. How do we solve the mouth breathing when kids are like, I was just going to touch on that because friends of mine, their kid had their tonsils and adenoids out

because he was having troubles with his speech. Yeah. And then they started to realize that he was actually really gasping for when he was sleeping he was really tired and really he was sleeping but it wasn't he could tell that he wasn't comfortable and it was like okay well they got his tonsils and adenoids out and like it did a decent difference in the house for sure we're just to get like mouth tape am i taking my kids back and they can have a 4 a m ice bar yeah the first 12 months when you're trying to implement this sleep routine and obviously

kids get sick you know they have like those regression moments How do you make sure you're still staying on track and stick into that routine? Yes, developmental leaps, teething sickness. Very common question with parents and when we're sleep training. What do we do when this sort of thing happens? The good news is when babies are sleeping well, often they sail through the developmental leaps and it hardly impacts their sleep. The teething, again, a lot of research has been done on that.

And actually, the teething pain is less overnight. It's not going to often cause the night wakes. your blood pressure is lower, your body temperature's lower. If they're fine in the day, they're not waking overnight because of teething. In terms of sickness, they don't want to sleep train if the baby's unwell. If they've already slept trained and the baby becomes unwell, you follow you up. You respond as you need to. And if you can not throw everything out of the window with the sleep train,

the settling, then that's ideal. And hopefully if they've learnt to sleep well, like they'll settle in a similar way when they're unwell. But sleep is healing. you know, wanting to take longer naps. And we go off the routine when they're sick, absolutely fine. And when they're better, because they've learnt to sleep well, they'll bounce back when you're consistent.

Consistence is a key, consistent with your settling method, get back on track with the timings, and they'll be absolutely fine. Because I know where Macy's like a bit unwell, you can tell that she wants to sleep more. Yeah. And it's like, it might be four in the afternoon, which is a horrible time to let them have a nap.

But if she needs it, she needs it, right? And it's like, look, if I'm going to have a rough night now because of it, if she can get some sort of reprieve, like, I'll get to let it, let it happen. It's not going to be like, stay awake. Yeah. Yeah. Don't you dare shut your eyes. Yeah.

And often when they're having those naps at 4 p.m. when they're not well, they're still going sleep well because they just need it. They need that extra sleep when they're sick. Obviously, every child, every family is different. I remember there was a friend who I won't name, but they were like, oh, yeah, the baby will just, it was just sleep when it's tired. I remember, you were like, being, it was like nine and a hug at night, and the baby was, like I say a toddler, was still just like up and about.

And I was like, oh my God, like the child needs to sleep. There's a child to do. Well, well, yeah. Like, it does need sake. But at the same time, like if the parents are fine with that, you do you. You know, sleep is a learned behavior. Babies learn through us being very consistent in our approach. If you're not ready for change or wanting it, you're not going to be consistent.

The baby's probably going to go backwards because they're very confused. They protest and it's all a bit of a mess. So do what's right for you. And when it's not right, get help and you'll be ready and you'll see great progress. But if I'm trying to get Poppy to put herself to sleep, like the room is dark, there's a bit of white noise, I'm swaddling her, give her the bottle. And I'd like to just put it down in the cot? Like how can I make her have the ability to put herself to sleep?

Yeah. So she's still really young and like assistance is absolutely fine. If she's feeding well and she's put on good weight and she's had a good. good feet off and they're quite content and you can put them down like swaddling is obviously nice tight swaddle make sure the nap is clean put it down and just see what she does like there's no harm in doing that and that's what i used to do with my boys and they very quickly kind of learned how to get themselves off to sleep is it a case of this like there's no stimulation in the room so they'll kind of just be like oh i guess i'll well if at poppy's age like if you can

replicate that feeling of being in the womb so you've got a really nice tight swathe you've got the white noise on because that's kind of the sound that she's used to. It's a really nice temperature. It's nice and dark and she's had a good feed. She'll be feeling really nice and content. Yes, some do drift off. They don't all, absolutely not. And if they don't, that's when we just get a nice consistent method.

Shush pat is a good one for your age. Let's go again. Shush pat. You can start with shush pat when you've got her swaddled. Shush pat. And you can just start by shush patting her up here or even like. in your arms in the cradle position because then it's easier to put her in the bassinet. Yeah.

And even just when she's like even drowsy, then you put her in the bassinet, you can even put her on the side. And you go, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh. That's great technique. That's great technique. If she gets upset, you go a bit harder with the pats and a bit louder with the shushing. Shish, shish, shh, shh, shh, shh, on the side. What's your rhythm of the pat life? When she's getting tired and drowsy and nearly there, yeah, slow.

down. And you taper it off. Yeah, taper it off. Look at you go. That's great technique. I'll let you practice on me later down there. And then do you then like taper off to like a yeah. And if and when I think she's, they're nearly there, I sort of just yeah, like lightly take my hand off and if they're kind of, then they go. Yeah. Then we start again. But um, if not often, yeah. But it can take, you know, it can take 20, 30 minutes. It's, yeah. It can take time. But the more you do it the more consistent you are that time decreases are you trying to get them to the point of just going to sleep and then you put them down because you're like is it true that you don't want them to fall asleep in your arms yeah because then they get used to that

that you want them to still have like like 95% there yeah you're spot on yeah but when but when they're as newborn for poppy like yeah obviously but but when they're four months onwards when we know they're neurologically mature enough to self-sue self-settle yes absolutely you want to really die back on that assistance so they're falling asleep on their own. Yeah, remember we got sort of stuck in the routine of the shush pat with Oscar as he got a little bit older too because I think he quite enjoyed it.

He enjoyed it so much. But when we tried to stop it and I looked in the camera, he was spanking himself. He was like, oh, that's the spot. And I was like, I've got the monitor out. I'm like, what is he doing? And he was like, he's patting himself.

That's funny. And it's like, I remember the days, I mean, Macy was thankfully not as bad as Oscar, but yeah, the shush pat and it was a lot of like bodyweight squats, if I'm honest. Oh, yeah. Look, and a lot of parents, like even the bouncy ball, I'm seeing a lot of parents that have, get used to, like, bouncing their babies on a bounce ball. And I always say my advice, like, try and find something that's sustainable, because that's pretty tiring after a while.

My step count right now is through the roof. My quads were huge. Yeah, I'm lapping up and down the hallway behind you, it's just like, is it because it replicates the motion of being in the world? Yeah, yeah. Wow. But as they get older, that can all become a bit too much and it becomes a bit too stimulating, it can actually disrupt them more.

So that's when I'm like, too much shush pat. Yeah, I'm like, talk back on it now. They also get heavy. Yeah. And you're like, oh. For sure. It's a real workout. Ash, you've got a couple of questions.

I do. Because you don't have a newborn, unfortunately. I have a vasectomy. As much as you'd love one. I'm a proud owner of a vasectomy. Thank you, Matthew. Thank goodness. Yes, I have got a four and a six-year-old.

Now, keeping in mind, they share a room. Okay, they love it. Yep. They love each other, thank God. But my first question is they are different age. Macy's not yet four, and Oscar's probably six and a half going on seven. So it's like, in terms of the routine and the time of sleep,

they go to sleep at the same time. Great. Yeah, Marley at the moment, similar, they share room. And Marley, Lola falls asleep straight away. And Marley's there like, do, do, do, do. Interesting. Lola's like, oh, shut up. They're on bunk beds and you said Lola's down the bottom.

Yeah, well, that's probably a benefit for you guys, because mine are side by size like a prison cell. And the main question is there for me is, at what age do I, start to change the routine up a bit so that they're comfortable with oscar's doesn't feel like he's getting dutted out of the chance to stay up late and then macy can get to sleep without being disrupted by old chatterbox over there that can't shut up yeah so if it's working for you and they're happy and they're both going down pretty easily there's no need to change it and for four and six year olds like seven p.m is still still really good children under seven p.m's great

bedtime. And what time are they going to be? Yeah, around there. Yeah. And how, what time are they waking up? Around six o'clock, ish. Yeah. Yeah. So that's perfect. Like, they're getting 11 hours. I'm a perfect parent, so we're saying. Thank you. You're doing it, Ash. And yeah, I mean, you get your night back with his 7pm bedtime. Your son, Oscar, becomes bedtime battles and he's really struggling to get asleep. That's when you might go, cool. We need to lay and stay up until 7.30. But under 7, 7 p.m.'s great. The reasons they give for not wanting to go to bed. I'm sure that you're probably,

you're a four and a half year old now. It's like, come on, it's time to go to bed. But they'll give any reason why they shouldn't go to bed. Do you have any techniques or anything you can say to us that would help up me get through that moment without getting frustrated? Yes.

Like the power plays and the bedtime battles. I'm so thirsty now. I'm like, fuck off. You've had four cups of water. My kid will drink. It's a drink bottle. in bed, just so I can go, I got a wait. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm wearing the thick of it at the moment, like, with Wolfie. Well, Teddy's the naughty one. And he's like, oh, one more high five. Some more tickles. More tickles. Oh, I'm really, I'm thirsty. And I'm like, I can see what's going on here. You give them an inch and they take them out.

And that's the challenge. Like, limits and boundaries is key. And it's an incredibly hard part of parenting. So, yeah, you've just got to be firm with your limits and vouchers and go, look, at the end of the day, bedtime's important. We're going to do a nice wind-down routine, very consistent, predictable wind-down routine where they get the connection, the fun, that time with you. And then when it's bedtime, it's bedtime, and it's kind of not negotiable.

So you just ignore these additional requests at a spread-time. Yeah, I didn't really sharp. I was literally about talking about talking about it talking. There's been times where... That's like, can I please have a tickle back? And I'm like, I'm not fucking giving you anything. And then one time I was like, do you know what, I'll give you one minute back tickle and then you go to sleep.

And she had the one minute and I was like, I'm done now. She's like, cool. I got what I needed. It must have been a very good ticker. What about the next night? Was she like. She does. She needs like a one minute tickle back.

I mean, once it starts creeping like one minute, 30, two minutes, that's another story. But sometimes they just like you got, you kind of, I was, I thought to myself, oh, wow. I like to sometimes be a bit of a dictator when it comes to putting the kids to bed and not letting them have anything. That is made of a tea. But then I was like, oh, it kind of does sometimes benefit to just give them a little win. Totally, totally. And I encourage you, like, just with, like, for them and decisions in the day,

if you let them have a bit of sway and, you know, what dress are you wearing today? He's dress or this dress. And then they feel like more at ease. And so, like, if one minute tickles, go and get her to sleep much sooner, there's nothing wrong with that. It's when she, yeah, needs to go. Okay, I want five minutes. We sort of, like, I sort of implement the one she's step. So they obviously shower and stuff

And then they share a room So I'm like once you step into your room The silliness is over Like this is the spot They never listen Because it's like I'll walk away for a second And then all of a sudden they're like Having something, you know

They're doing something silly And April will be enabling it And I'll be like oh yeah And then she'll be like Yes see told you stop being silly But then it's like if I Just have that on record That Ash put the blame on April for that one

I always do But like Matt was saying It's kind of like I've said to him a few times where it's like trying different things to get them to shut up and go to sleep where it's kind of like you're in my time now and that makes me upset like how would you hate it if I interrupted your time and it's kind of like they're like I don't get what you mean yeah so how long are they it varies taking to get to sleep yeah like look it can take they just I do say sometimes

to them look I don't mind if you guys interact quietly yeah okay because if I have to be across the house and I can hear you giggling and carrying on. There's no sleep happening there. But, like, I've walked in and Oscar's fast asleep and Macy's still talking to him, you know. But, like, I would say, it's never, unless they're absolutely wrecked, it's like 30, 45 minutes.

Yeah. Like, oh, my God. Yeah, yeah. Well, look, it takes any human on average 20 minutes to get to sleep. And with my boys, I just think, look, if they're having a little chat, like, we can't make them go to sleep. You shut the hell out. That's pretty much what I'm like.

But it's if they're like being really not getting out of bed and that sort of thing. I've caught them a few times. Yeah. And it's just finding out what works for each child and finding their currency. And for woofie and daddy, like they love to have the door open. And that's fine. You can have the door open when you go to bed. But if you get up, we're going to have to shut the door.

Or if you keep talking, we're going to have to shut the door. And that works for them. And I've tried that strategy on other clients. It doesn't always work for the child. We've got to find their currency in it, four and six. Or maybe they're a bit too old now. but work with a lot of three-year-olds, four-year-olds, and, like, rules and, like, rules, like, these are the bedtime rules.

And keep it really simple, but, you know, you close your eyes, they close your eyes, fast, you roll over, you, you know, showing them what to do. Sometimes kids, like, at that age when they're a bit older, like, they literally, yeah. If you get, they can't even wipe their own ass, they're like, you forget they don't know how to put themselves to sleep. Yeah, yeah. What do you mean?

I'm going to close my eyes. Just go back to basics and then go, cool, if you, you know, these are bedtime rules or bedtime manners and you do that and you do that and you get, get sticker or like what's their currency you know going the beach for a surf or i'd be broke the playground or yeah yeah so um that can work yeah it's funny you just mention before that you give them an inch so take a mile that's the thing there's been times i've been like oh look okay you guys you can talk quietly but it's never it's never quietly is it they're always like trying to push the boundary they got the microphone in here yeah they're

just carrying and like lately macy who's she's obsessed with mermaids so she keeps tucking her feet into the pillow like a mermaid and then i walk past a room and the legs a flop there's a big flipper i'm like go to slate we have some listener questions and this was submitted by the members of the facebook group at two doting dads ash do you want to go the first one sure my three-year-old is now in a habit of coming into our bed each night and it's getting earlier and earlier, tips on how to transition them back into their bed. Yeah, it's a common one at three and they're coming in for that reassurance and just returning them to their room and positive reinforcement and again going back to like at three years of age

role modelling is a big one. So it's just they don't know, hey, when I wake up, they get into these habits. When I wake up, I go into mum and dad's bed. We just need to go, hey, when you wake up, you grab your bunny or your little toy, sleep buddy, you close your eyes, you roll over and drift off to sleep again. Yeah, because I suppose the way they, I'm trying to get on a child's level here, which is really easy. Like, I guess what they think is, when I wake up, I get out of bed. And they don't know what time it is. So they're like, well, I've woken up, I'm getting out of bed. Yeah. And so then we've just got to be really, yeah, consistent with how we then handle it when they do get up. So then we just take them back, hold the hand, take them back,

put them into bed time to sleep and nights time to sleep and you know kind of keep it really boring they're wanting that social interaction they're wanting to maybe be in your bed and you just got to be consistent and talk to them at three years of age they kind of know what they you know

they're so good having to cuddle in bed though isn't it oh yeah so you would suggest if they get into your bed and you're like and they get in you don't really notice them when they're they get in they fall asleep yeah I'm best not to pick her up and carry it back I'm best to like a gentle wake up

and walk them back and reassure sure them and then... Yeah, look, if they're asleep in your bed and they do the transfer, that's cool. But more I would be trying to get them before they get into bed. Gotcha. Gotcha. Oh, if you hear them coming. The moment they're sipping the room, you're like, get out!

This question is, my two-year-old, how come he will sleep great for one night and the next night he'll be awake for, say, three to four hours? So, yeah, the split night, the party at 3am, it's never a fun one. And often it's because there's the timing's out, the sleep pressure's out, or he's not getting enough nap time in the day and that's going to mean he's going into bed overtired and that can cause split nights and wait for a decent amount of time or he can be, you know, slept too much in the day so he just doesn't have that sleep pressure overnight and he's waking for a couple of hours. So yeah, I'd be looking at the timing of the naps and the time is going to bed and potentially

having to adjust that at this age. Yeah, the nap would be about an hour and a half in the middle of the day. And then you're wanting, you know, four-hour wake window from that nap to bed. Yeah, right. Because there's that old thing, right, where parents, you go, God, he slept through last night. Let's just do exactly what we did last night. And it doesn't happen. Is it just the case that maybe that, that midday sleep, which I miss,

that midday sleep, it was just a bit shorter. So their wake window is actually a bit longer now before you get into that bedtime routine. So now they're overtired, which causes the split. Yeah. Genius. And look, it's also how they're falling to sleep. If they're self-settling, no problem.

But if they're missing an association, they're waking out. They're wanting that. That's another reason. Yeah, like a dummy. I remember with Oscar. My kids, thankfully, just gave up the dummy. They didn't want it. But I remember early days, like before two,

if it fell out of their mouth, that's going to, they get there. Where is it, right? All of a sudden, they're awake, and it's off. whole ordeal where you're getting a split night's leave. Yeah, it's annoying. You've got to teach them to find it in a place. I've got another one here. My one-year-old always wakes up before 5 a.m.

How do I get this kid to sleep in longer? The early morning wakes are such a common one. It's often the last to resolve. It's really hard to sleep trying at 5am. You kind of want to do whatever you can to get them back to sleep. But often, I mean, the basic environmental stuff you want to look at, making sure that, yeah, you've got the white noise on it that's blocking any environmental noise. of the garvos or birds or whatever, you know, it's a nice environment.

It drops to its lowest temperature at 3am. So, you know, if they're too cold at 5, they're going to wake early, making sure the room's nice and dark at 5am, hopefully it is. And then, like, nutrition, are they, you know, hungry? Are they waking because they're hungry? But often at one, like, they're pretty well established on solids and that's not a reason. Again, the nap timings and the time they go to bed. And often people think, hey, a later bedtime's going to mean a late awake.

and that's not the case. It's never the case, is it? Yeah, we want to get them into bed a bit earlier. Do you think it is beneficial for kids to share a room? Yes, I love it. If it works for the kids, absolutely. You know, there's always going to be some excitement around the few weeks of them sharing a room

and they'll be chatting and doing all their things. But again, limits boundaries are key. And yes, if they sleep well, often, the older one can help the younger one too. And yeah, I think it's great. I feel like it's help with them, Marley and Lola Bond. Yeah, yeah, more. Yeah, yep.

For sure. I recall just one of my wife's friends saying, oh, some of my best memories were sharing rooms with my siblings, you know, at that younger age, because it's kind of like having a sleep over every night. As long as they're getting sleep. Yeah, exactly. And the prison cell together. And the prison cell goes out, their meal comes sliding in under the door. It's great. So we always end on one question, and that is when Teddy and Wolfie are no longer living at home, they've grown up and they've flown the nest. What is the one thing you would want them to remember about the house they grew up in? The fun we had. Yeah, have a good time. I'm like, you know, dancing before dinner or like, yeah, they're fun they have.

I love it. And I also love that you've offered to have a night when Poppy is old enough to help her get into a better routine. Yes, we'd love to. So newborn nights, we can do that. I'd love to. How old? Can you do it now? Now.

Do it now? Really? Yeah. We've already made a bit up for yourself. It's fine. Do you have to wait until she transitions to a bottle feed? No, no. I mean, if Laura, because I can just bring her into Laura when she's due for a feed and then take her.

So Laura just literally gets up feeds and goes back to sleep. I then swat or so settle, make sure she's getting sleep. So whenever you want, I'd love to. Say, thank you so much. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you so much, guys. Oh, I'm yawning after all that sleep talk. Oh, God.

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