Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #190 We've brought in the parenting expert - Gen Muir is in the house!

Episode Date: December 14, 2025

One thing we pride ourselves on at Two Doting Dads is that we provide you with the good, the bad and the relatable parenting stories but we NEVER provide advice. Until today... well sort of. We've brought in parenting expert Gen Muir from Connected Parenting to dish out the advice and she has some incredible tips for the boys to try on their kids. Plus she does the unthinkable... she makes Ash cry (although he won't admit it) and he is left speechless for the first time, maybe ever! And the parenting hack that could actually get your kids listening to you! There are so many nuggets of gold to take home in this episode, you won't want to miss it.  If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Welcome back to two dotting dads and one doting mum. I'm Maddie J. I'm Ash. And I'm Jen. Very good. No. Well, and this is a podcast all about parenting.

It is the good. It is the bad. And the relatable. And, Jen, we don't give advice. But if ever there was an episode where you want to take the advice, not from us, but from the expert, it is this episode right now. People will be very confused.

We're going against the grain of what we've always said from Day Dot. But we can actually say we have an expert this time, not just another parent. Well, hopefully an expert who's lived it, because I kind of agree with you, I think parents are drowning in advice. And I love what you guys do. It's a lot of empathy and a lot of bringing the dads in to the chat. And I missed the conversation that we had on our WhatsApp, Ash. You went to Jen's class.

Yes, so let me cast you back. Was he a good student? She doesn't remember me. How dare you know. It's okay. It was in the middle of face mask time. Oh, this is a while ago. Yeah, yeah.

It was 2021 in November, the 12th of November. They were dark times post-COVID round two lockdown. Yeah, and it was at the MARTA, which is. a hospital here in Sydney and you do a class there for introducing your second or third whatever baby is to your first born or the previous born child. I am passionate about that class because I think that we do a lot of preparing parents for that first baby and we wrap around them and we say okay there's a lot you've got to do and then when people get pregnant with their second baby we say well you'll be busy

You're stuck. We go, geez, you'll be busy, but you'll be right. You've done this before. And I think we're thinking about the baby. And you usually do feel more confident with the baby, but what you've never done before is juggle the needs of two children at two different stages. You're often a little bit poorer, a little bit busier. Often the support that wrapped around you with the first baby goes,

oh, your life is looking a bit messy and hard right now, and I'm actually got other things to do. Absolutely. And the key takeaway for April and I, which we still use, is some advice you give about hugging your firstborn and not letting them go until they push you away. And I want to add to that some of the time. Yes, sorry.

I'm just like, hold on to one at the time. I'm like, come in. When I hug, Ash, I'm like, can you let go? I only said that because I once saw a post on Instagram for parents, never ever let a hug go ahead of your child. And I thought, my God, if I did that, I would still. be in my kitchen floor right now. I'm stronger than you.

Because, you know, my kids wouldn't let go. And I think sometimes as parents, we do have to let go. But I love that advice for people where a child is adjusting to anything, whether that is becoming a big brother or sister or starting a new school or whatever's happening, holding that hug sometimes and giving the kids the power of when that hug ends is one of the most beautiful things we can do. Keep forgetting that rule. It also fills their cup.

But it's not a rule though. Oh, what do we call it? It's just something you do every now and then. We can fill our child's cup by just going in for a hug and allowing them. It's a hack. It's a hack. It's a tip. It's a nice to add. Well, it's nice to see the two of you back together.

It's, you know. Hey, Jen, we normally start with a question that we ask, I guess. And that question comes from me. And I want you to cast your memory back to the most trouble you got in as a child. Okay. Do you know, I was a really good kid. Well, that's no fun. No, no, wait, wait.

It's okay. I have a story. I was a good kid, but my feet were very accident prone. And what I will say to that is I'm a child of the 80s. I was completely let loose to run around the neighbourhood. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Sydney, in Linfield, not too far from here, where there was a huge amount of wisteria.

You know the purple flowers that bloom at Christmas? And you know what we're serious full of is bees. I'm very, very allergic to bees. I have been stung in my life by treading on them by 17 bees. And every time I would tread on a bee, my foot would blow up like 10 times at size. And I would be on crutches for about two weeks while I recovered. 17's got to be a record. It's a record.

Wait, that was in one sitting. You got stung 17. No, no, no. Like over my life. I trot on 17 bees. I don't remember the last time. I was tongue by B. Sorry, I thought for a second you got attacked by 17B.

I don't think she's beat here. What's that movie where the guy dies? Oh no, don't bring up my girl. My girl. My girl. I thought it was a scene. None of us. I won't get through it if we bring up that movie.

Yeah. I'm sorry. And then on top of that, you know, we used to play this game on the trampoline where we'd turn the trampoline on its side. Does anyone remember this as a child? You're too young. No, I remember this. I'm older than Ash.

Yeah. I'm older than both of these. Thank you. for making me seem like I'm older than him. Okay, but back in the rough old 80s, where no parents were watching, you'd turn your netting-free trampoline with springs on its side. One of you would hang on the netting

while all the kids from the neighbourhood pushed the trampoline down. Back onto its feet. Back onto its feet, and you'd bounce. And one day I was hanging on the netting and the neighbourhood pushed me a little too far. And the trampoline went back over me and the trampoline crushed every bone in my foot.

Oh, my God. Your feet? And then another time, I kicked in, you know, those marbled glass doors? My siblings, I was the youngest child. My nickname was Blob, because, like, they just thought I was the blob that came along and ruined their lives. That's beautiful. Beautiful little blob.

And one day they locked me out of this room and they were singing, No blobs allowed. That's a classic. And I got so angry. I kicked my foot through this glass door. and again, yeah, wound up in hospital with a smash-up. You could have died. I could have died.

I could have broken an artery. My parents went there. They were renovating a house around the corner. My mum, like, crashed her car coming back to get me. Anyway, so my thing I got in the most trouble for, I think, was my feet. Okay. Wow. Do you remember the punishment for smashing a door, though?

No punishment. No punishment. Oh, I wish I was a house old lover. Smash the doors left right on set. No, I do remember being chased by my mum with a wooden spoon at one point back in. Back in the dark memories. You're going to set every listener off right now with the trauma of the wooden spoon. I always, whenever my mum, who lives with us, does some cooking and she grabs a wooden spoon.

I'm like, oh, you should whip it out on her and be like, oh, she's like, I didn't hit you that much, did I? I once went on TV and I was talking about, you know, smacking kids and I was saying, you know, like we're all children of the 80s and parents used to smack. And now most parents are sort of looking to do their discipline in different ways. And my mum had minded my kids for me while I was on TV. doing it and I got home and she goes, we didn't smack you that much. They're always living in denial, aren't there? There's two versions of reality.

Remember we did a call out for listeners once of what were you hit with? And it was the array of things. A few of them I was like, we should report this. Oh, man, it's so bad. Jane, you've got four boys and I've just got to say like, fuck. I know. Lucky woman. Lucky woman.

Yeah, that's amazing. I imagine there must be so much. many moments where you're like, oh, this is tough. Do you know what? No, it's divine. Okay. Well, that's all we've got time for. What if she's like, she's been smoking. Maybe, I mean, my mother-in-law once minded my kids for me and she said afterwards, I think you are like the frog in the slow-boiling pot of water. You don't even know you're dying. That's from the but look do you know what it's a lot of fun i think i deeply always wanted the night i met my husband at a house party in urscomville at 22 years old and i saw his giant afro under a floodlight and i went

that is the man i'm going to marry i came home and i wrote in my diary i met a man tonight and i want to have a thousand mini hymns wow now you do it must be the loudest household like it's loud it's Do you know what boys are a lot of movement? Like, we do not have a meal where someone doesn't fall off a chair ever. And you laugh, but you just don't get it. Like, they just fall off chairs. And you just think, can't anybody just sit on their bottom? I always say that my son's like a kelpie.

Yes. And my daughters are the opposite. And it's like, how are you so different? They're just full of beans, aren't I? Yes, they're full of beans, they're full of movement, they're full of love. I love the love. Well, it's quite fitting that you were doing a class with Ash about how to introduce your children

because you have a story about you had a newborn and your toddler. I do. Tell us about that. Well, this is a story that's in my book and it's, I guess, would be not the worst day of my parenting. I think there's been some hard days. But I think I was the kind of person that went into parenting thinking, well, if anyone is going to win the Olympics for parenting, this girl.

Fair enough. I think, yeah. I was like, my mum was a therapist. I had really wanted babies, dreamed of it, planned of it. I was a social worker. I had read everything there was to read, you know, much wanted baby. And actually for the first year, I had this first baby. He ate, he slept, he did all the things.

And I was kind of smug. I'd go to Mother's group and I, and people would be like. You were the smug mom. Yeah. Oh my God. I want to go and poke my owner eyes out now. But I was the smug mom. And everybody was like, you know, I'm tired and I'd be thinking, well, if you just had a routine.

Oh, no, Jen. No, but I was the saying, Marley our first was just like the dream. Not because we were great. We just got lucky. It's actually not that hard. If you just feed them. I was the opposite. We had the kid, we had the reflux kid, the dairy intolerant kid, the one who wouldn't sleep.

Yeah, so my second kid was the reflux kid. Okay, right. And from the absolute get-go, this child, came out screaming and scream for two years and about I think it was about three months in and I just remember this day it was like a really hot November day you know one of those unseasonably hot sweaty days last week pretty much yeah the baby would not go down hadn't slept wouldn't feed crying and I had a two year old and you know one of those days where it's like time is going backwards not forwards like you're just like how can it only be 10 a m I've lived lived 48 hours of this day. And it adds to it because you know that Bubba's going to be so much harder for the tail end of the day when they miss their sleep. But also you're like, all I want is that little moment, that 45 minutes of just like

one less child to look after. And so sort of it's a blur, but I remember my two-year-old eating a million tiny tetties and I'm trying to just settle this baby, settle this baby. And finally I get the baby to sleep. And I turn to my two-year-old and I go, I'm just going to go put the baby in. in bed, mommy will be just one minute, just stay here, the wiggles are on, like, you know, good boy, and he's like, okay, mommy. And I go down and I lovingly put my baby in his bassinet, like, you know, the slow release

so that they don't notice the movement from your arms and the white noise is going. And I'm like, oh my God, finally, you know, just release this child off my chest. and like before I can even blink suddenly my two-year-old's in the room I look down before I can do anything he just grabs the side of the bassinet he looks at me in the eyes and goes rah I'm like I mean I thought he was the spawn of Satan oh my god so the baby's screaming yeah I am like bawling

the two-year-old is crying and the reason that it was such a hard moment was just my reaction like my reaction in that moment was not calm and it was not connected and it was not anything I had kind of been really up until that point and I think the neighbours would have heard me yelling and I remember just all of us sobbing for hours like I had to call my husband and go and I just thought I never ever pictured parenting could be this hard

and I think at the moment it wasn't just the physical labour of it or the crying of the baby but the sense that I wasn't being the parent that I wanted to be in the moment and I was so disappointed in myself and then I was like I can't believe I'm not enjoying being a mum to two kids like this is not fun and then the disappointment in yourself and there was just so much in it and and what it was guilt must be off the Richter because of your profession at least like when I feel bad I'm like well look I'm not an expert I always I always tell myself that too. I'm like, this is my jam.

A little bit. And then also you just, you know, at that point in time, I think and a lot of people will relate to this, you're drifting out almost to see. You can see your old life and your goals and the parent you were going to be before you had kids and you can see it on the shore, but you're drifting somewhere else.

I don't remember for four kids at all. I think I've just blocked it out. But I can, like you're saying that I can just feel the rage. Yes. And the mum rage. Yeah. And the,

or the dad rage. What would be going through my head would be, why? Yeah. Why do that? Well, then I was like, I'm pretty sure my two-year-old is destined for prison. That is a psycho thing to do. And in hindsight, I now know that he was this beautiful little baby that up until that point had had this

monogamous relationship with me. And I had brought in this second child. told him it was going to be his best friend. He's going, this is not the best friend that you promised. It's actually a real pain in the ass. You are tired. I am missing everything we had. And kids are going to show that through behaviour.

I now get what he was communicating. It's like a breakup. Really? It is. You know, like in a way. And I guess like, yeah, you're right. You forget that that probably was not. The issue was that was just missing you so much that.

I think kids grieve the world they knew before that baby. came along and even though there is so much to love in being a big brother or sister and they can love the baby and still be grieving the world in which it was just you and them. Do you need to then allow them to grieve without making it real obvious? Is that like, we gather here today. How do you let that grieving to happen without trying to shine a spotlight on it? I think we do it in three ways. So we increase connection and we absolutely just love on that kid and we delight on them and it's mostly physical it doesn't it's just literally kind of showing them hey we have enough love for you in this baby and we do that with high fives and fist pumps and

holding the hug some of the time and just these little gestures we do it by setting and holding boundaries that make them feel safe so even though your world has just shifted and the rug has just been pulled out from under you it's still going to put you to bed right and we do it by holding space for their emotions and that might sound like i know it's really hard when you want a biscuit or you want more TV and it's hard being a big brother or sister sometimes isn't it and we allow them that space to actually show those emotions because they won't ever I mean really I have heard stories and it's hilarious when it happens but they rarely come up to you and say hey I've been thinking about our relationship and things have shifted since the baby came along

can we talk about what they're going to do is we're on the floor or melt down or like you know they're going to do those behaviour or shake the baby's bassinetes. Yeah. Right? They're going to show you through that behaviour because that's how kids communicate. Wow. She's good. I know.

And also there's something there like you mentioned earlier with boys as well and my eldest. And I don't do it enough where I'm like, you know, it's hard being a big brother because and then I notice how loving he is with mum. It's because of that. He wants that space with mum still. Yeah. Very interesting. It's interesting.

I think one of the most powerful things I can say to any one of my four boys. is it's hard being the eldest. Yeah, I'm going to use that. It's hard being the youngest. I've got this beautiful little youngest, and he's like, you know, sent to earth to test everything I teach, but also divine, big-hearted. But every now and then I go in and say,

it's so hard, because I was a youngest. So I get him. And I'm like, it is so hard being the youngest. And he'll go, yeah, you know. Oh, my God, I need to use this. He's validating his feelings. I know. I've never ever, like, I've always been like,

help your sister, you know, but I've never been like, you're the best big brother to her. Like, I've never ever been down that track and all used. It's hard being... If there is a magic bullet in parenting, that is it. Oh, God. Okay.

Right down. That is it. Like, think about, you know, anything that happens. If we can start with empathy, right? I usually end with empathy. It's usually way too late. I'm like, oh, fuck, I'm sorry. Give us a cuddle.

I'm sorry I said what I said. Kids, kids don't love change, right? Anytime we bring in a change. I mean, just getting into or out of the bath can be a big deal for most children, right? What the, excuse me? Sorry. We don't bath anymore. I'm always, I'm always.

They're filthy. It's so hard. I stopped bathing my boys years ago. It's so hard to get them in there. And I'm like, and then they don't want to get out. But trust me, bro, when you're in there, you're going to love it. Then they're in there like, yeah, it's pretty good. It's pretty warm.

Yeah, thanks. And then you're like. Time to get out. And they're like, no. No. No. Even if they've taken a shit in there. They're like, no, I'm not getting out.

Get me out. Oh my God. When they shit in the bath, that is the worst. No, especially when it's like a decent constant paper. And you've got to scoop it out. Oh, you can't stomp it down because it's too hard. No. Oh, man. You've taken me back.

I've got a bone to pick with you. Oh, God. I've been holding on to this for a while. I'm glad it's her and not me this time. Yeah, Ash, relax for a second. Woo! Okay. We had a podcast.

We did. Together. I jumped on your podcast. And I remember. We had a beautiful podcast. I can't believe we have a bone. Cheers for the invite. And I can't remember verbatim what you said,

but it was along the lines of sometimes you've just got to pick your battles. You know, like if you're really struggling as an example to get your child to brush their teeth, sometimes it's okay to take the path of least resistance and avoid the brushing of the teeth. I stand by it. Right? Ash.

Oh, she's really digging a high here. Okay. Go on. Oh, my on trouble with your dentist? So, here's a bill. So Marley, Marley is great for me in that I feel like I can kind of always be in the case. I can say, hey, do this and she'll listen to me. Whereas Lola, I don't have that same level of influence.

Lola's, she's your second. She's my second. So at the moment, she's for. Because we did a podcast and we talked about how she preferred Laura. Yes. Yes. She prefers. Yeah.

She has, you know what? The biggest game changer was when I went away, but I'm a celebrity. And she was kind of like, oh, shit, that guy, he left. And so that was such a game changer. But still, even though we're. Shodja. Yeah, literally. But she'll always listen to Laura before she listens to me.

And so, like, last night, for example, we got home. And every little step from when we get home to when we go to bed was just a battle from, you know, every mouthful. It was like I was trying to spoon hot lava into a mouth. She didn't want it. you know going in the bath again just like everything was hard brushing the teeth was hard getting in pajamas was hard and i was kind of thinking to myself you know at what point do i say it's okay i can take the path of least resistance and not push all these little battles but then i wouldn't get anything done i'd still be it'd be 11 o'clock at night and she'd still be in a

close that she came home and daycare from this is the question of all parents and i have one phrase that answers it hit me is this working for me is this working for my child and let me explain it she says i don't want to brush my teeth you get to ask does it work for me for her to not brush her teeth does it work for her and there are going to be times where we're in the kitchen and our kid wants a biscuit right at dinner time or they don't want to brush their teeth or they don't want to wear a hat or whatever i mean the amount of battles especially with a strong-willed or a deeply feeling kid which i suspect you might have in that one um is going to be huge and and the reason that question matters is that I think that allows us as parents to step into that

beautiful kind of confident leadership role of yeah you might not like this but it doesn't work for me for you to not brush your teeth wear the hat and to not have any dinner well we can't force kids to eat to sleep or to poor we these are like biological processes and always if we can make kids feel safe those things are going to go better so let me jump really quickly into that. But like, if your child doesn't want to eat her dinner and she's come home from a day of daycare and she's a deeply feeling kid, what I'm seeing there before I see anything else is this is a kid who through the day, her cortisol levels and her ability of what she can tolerate and cope with is up to here. And now she's with you. Her safe base and all of this

pushback has always been a sign of love. We've talked about this before because kids will only push into a safe person, a relationship that can take it. So they push into it a bit as a way of communicating, I'm sort of struggling. And, you know, we can talk about things and we can hold the hug. Sometimes, though, I'd go, let's do two wheelbarrow races up and down the hallway. And here's what's going to happen in that moment. Number one, we've just put input into her large muscle, so proporeceptive input that allows that little body that's kind of full of cortisol after a day of day care or whatever to sit for maybe two minutes at the table, right? Number two, she's probably laughed while going up and down the hallway with you that lowers cortisol and has

her hunger cues able to come on and number three you've given her like a minute of connection and so all is kind of okay in her world that's your best chance of that kid may be eating and then at the same time you can also decide well i can't like you know does it work for me for her to eat or not eat look for me i'd go i've got bigger fish to fry because ultimately i'm trying to keep this thing on track and get her in bed because it doesn't work for me if she's not in bed at seven because that's what I would have been like. That was my end goal.

So we look at those goals and I think that is it working for me is it working for my child can help you anytime your child wants a third story and you can go, does that work for me? Yeah, it works for me. I'll read your third story or you know what? I am tight, I'm about to lose my mind

and you are tight and so as much as you want that third story we're not doing it. I love you to the moon and back. You're allowed to be upset about it but we're not going to read a third story. I feel like I'm going to throw Laura under the bus for this. Let's go. But because we always had this thought of during dinner,

she has to sit down and if she then runs around, it gets her worked up, that it's harder for her to sit down. But you think it could be beneficial? I have those little moments of exertion. I think that kids might be, sometimes their bodies are telling us something, so she may need to move to regulate.

Yeah. Like a lot of kids are still developing their sensory systems as well. So sometimes the issue with food is that they're busy. Sometimes it's that they're emotional. Sometimes it's that they've had a full meal at daycare and it's just not the best time for that little body. But often also their body is doing what it needs to do to regulate, which is why everybody falls off the chair at my house every single night

because we're all kind of like moving because that is how they're actually soothing their system to try that new food or eat that veggie. Well, if I'm saying, like, for example, now it's time to get in the bath and she's like, no, she's not listening. And I'm like, I've got a hack for you. Okay.

Okay. So if I walk into my living room and I've got a couple of kids there and just say, I say, okay, boys, it's teeth time, time to turn off the TV or stop playing with your Legos, we're going to brush our teeth. Can you imagine what happens? Oh, the pushback. No, just absolutely nothing. It's like suddenly everybody has a hearing deficit.

What? And if I push, it'll be like, whoa. This is the best part of the TV. Yeah, yeah. Round two, if you can consciously do it. Number two, I walk up, I'm going to firstly, like, for my boys, I'm just going to, I'm going to stroke their backs like this. So touch first before you ever say anything to your child,

especially something unfavorable, right? You're buttering them up, essentially. You're tuning, kids live in the moment. They live in the presence. So if we can just touch them, they're like, oh, hey, you're there. So number one, we've got to communicate in a way they can hear us and touch is everything for kids. So just a hand on the shoulder, hand on the shoulder, hand on the

bat, a little bit of a rub, right? You start with that and then you go, hey, guys, and then we want to go with empathy. I can see you're having the best time watching this show or playing with your Legos or playing with your dolls and I know it's so much fun, right? I see you, I hear you, right? Then it's time to brush teeth. And then here is my super duper duper hack, right? That was good.

Once we've done that, trust me, they've heard you, they've felt empathize with and you've been really clear about what's going to happen next. Sometimes Lola is like, shut up. Okay, we'll get to that next. Okay, but just so they don't, then I do this. I go, thank you so much. I can see you guys are moving. I really appreciate it.

And they move. It is unbelievable. So sometimes you want to acknowledge effort before kids are efforting. And it's almost like you've taken away the pushback opportunity or something. Like just say sometimes one of my kids will. drop an ice cream wrapper on the floor. She does my head. Like the whole story of the fact my husband buys ice creams every single day that I

don't even want in a house is another story. But then the kids eat the ice creams and then they just like, it's like, it's just gone from my hand. And you might say pick up that ice cream wrapper and sometimes there's that look of like pushback. Like, no, I just want to have a fight about this. And I go, thank you so much. I appreciate you being part of the team.

And they do it. Like, I'm telling you, it is a hack. I actually, just on that, I actually did that with Oscar where he had started this Lego, right? Yeah. Where he kind of was at a point where he didn't want to go back to it because he was at a hard point. And I was like, oh, man, I really can't wait for you to finish this. I really can't wait to see this when it's finished. And I went off and I came back and it was done.

Oh, he did. This is it. I was like, whoa. I've got one more. Okay. You go in your kids, you got to clean up this room. And they all like, oh, my legs don't work. Right.

Suddenly everybody's like just unable. And with little kids, like, I can't do this now. My kids are like, I've got a 14 year old. A 16 year old, they would like roll their eyes so far back in their head. They'd never come back. But when they were little, I would go, I'm going to close my eyes. And I bet when I open them, there's no way you guys could clean up all these toys. There's no way.

And they're all like, oh, my God, we're going to do it. The reverse psychological. The challenge of cleaning it up. I like it. If you can bring a bit of humour, and I know you guys can, it is everything. I reckon in parenting, it is the biggest shifter. Because often what we're really looking at when kids are stark, it's cortisol. And if we can make them laugh, that's 90% of it.

There was a moment when I was, Lola's always been a very slow eater. And we watched, is it C-beast? Sea Beast is a classic. C-beast, where it's for anyone who doesn't know where it's a story about they're trying to hunt a monster that lives in the ocean. I wonder how many times we've mentioned C-Beast on the fucker. It's a fucking banning movie.

C-bees is after my parenting time, I think. You could go back now. I watch it without them. And I was pretending that the cucumber was the ship from the Sea Beast. And they're a bit like the Hickamas Airplane for Landing, but it couldn't, I was looking for the sea monster

because they were going to try and kill the sea monster. And Lola was a sea monster. And then she would then come out and then eat the ship, like Sea Beast would. And then I would say, oh, God, when I was a ship, because it got bitten. Yeah, and she thought it was really funny. And so she'd want to come back for another bite. Genius.

Maybe you are an expert. I don't know. Just maybe in feeding. Fun feeding. I have seen a few videos, and I can't recall the exact specifics of why it's so beneficial. But it's along the lines of dads prefer rough and tumble play with their kids. And it's really beneficial. And I hate to sound like I'm saying the right thing.

here, but it releases oxytocin. Yep, correct, correct. And actually, actually, it's really interesting when mums and kids cuddle the highest oxytocin between a mum and a child, so that's the love hormone. Always got to outdo us, don't know. But when dads and kids do rough and tumble play, and not just rough and dump, because not all dads are like the rough, but often dads are good at being silly and they're good at play.

So all of those things that dads do, so whether it's active side-by-side stuff, whether it's the rough and tumble stuff or the silliness. I think dads are willing to be a bit silly. That's when the oxytocin peaks between dads and kids. And so it's interesting, I think, that that's kind of this natural way that we're designed to sort of bring out the love in our kids. And kids need both. Kids benefit so much from both.

So my only issue with the rough and tumble. Do you get in trouble for it at bedtime? No, Laura's pretty cool with that. And I'm conscious that like we try and do the rough and tumble. as soon as we get home, like we got the backyard. Some kids benefit from it right before bed. Yeah, I heard that. Oh, God, I feel like I'm telling them to calm down.

Like, that's the right thing to do. Well, there's no wrong or right. It's just something. You just do what works. And parenting is an experiment. Because they do get silly. After the shower, they do get silly. And I think there's no more silliness because we're trying to wind down.

I think maybe that is like what I had learned during when they were much smaller when you're trying to wind them down when they were, you know, babies. just sort of carried that thinking that was the right thing. But you just said that some of them, I don't think, how do you know, which one? You are guessing half the time, to be honest. Good, thank you. Do you know that the thing that I do to tell, have I got a kid that's dysregulated and silly? So kids will get, I mean, cortisol, the stress hormone will peak 20 minutes before bed

and 20 minutes after waking. So you're going to see a lot of struggles in those two points in your day always, right? And particularly at bedtime, a lot of parents do get kids that aren't so much melting down, but they're getting silly and crazy and they're not listening and you're trying to like bring them down and you're trying to be all calm and you're trying not to rock the boat and cause a meltdown and they're just getting like worse and worse and worse. And often at that point in time, what we're looking at kids needing is a really clear, firm boundary of like, I can see you want to keep playing.

Here is what's happening. Boundaries coming in and your child will melt down. But actually, you're going to kind of end it and have. help everybody sooner by holding that limit in a way that's kind and firm. And sometimes they're saying what I really need is to get wrapped up in my doona and have you pretend to eat me like a burrito. And both can be effective. And parenting is trial and error.

It is. There's no map. And I always say to my parents, because I do the class for people having their first baby, and I try to say, I know you don't know what you're doing, but I have a 16-year-old and I'm teaching him to drive and I don't know what I'm doing me. very true it's like a constant like you're both learning in the time you're always and you'll forever be the first time parent to that child in that moment forever yeah so my issue with rough and tumble oh yeah lola loves it absolutely loves it and she more than marley she likes

to get really into it and we have these fake fights and quite often she just always takes that bit too far like she'll really like kick me in the guts or sat me in the face Sometimes she'll spit in my face, like as a, as a like, bhr- Yep. They put right in there. And my worry is that she likes it so much, but it always ends in the same way where it's her kind of- Taking it too far. Taking it too far. I don't know if I'm doing the right thing, but I'm just in that moment, I say, I don't

like that, and that's not good. But then she's kind of like, shut the fuck out. We're like, it's rough and tumble, bro. Like, it is what it is. Don't be such a baby. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Aren't you a grown man?

Because my fear is that if she's with a kid in the playground, that she's going to, because Lola's my little bulldozer, that she's going to grab one of the kids and like spit in their face. And am I teaching her really bad habits? I actually feel like I love this kid. But what I would say is this.

I'm getting the sense. This is a body that needs this to regulate. And those same bodies that need this to regulate, they will take it too far. And that's a couple of things. She just can't help it. She just gets so excited and it feels so good. Then she just goes that step too far.

My eldest, we call him old one step. Because he always goes one step too far. I was like, whoa, my God. His whole life, we go old one step. And he's 16. I can't release the current stories. But yeah, he's still taking it one step too far. But these kids, they get so into it.

They're big-hearted and they live life. those experience to the fullest. And so it is hard for her to learn those edges. But through that rough and tumble, she is learning the edges. And if you consistently, like, reminding her at the beginning of rumbling or at other times, remember, I don't like it when you spit in my face. And I don't like it when you keep me in the nuts or whatever else she's doing. And if you do that, what I would tell your child in advance is, if you do that, I will stop you. And we will stop the game. And we do that with love because you don't want to be a kid that is making social mistakes. Because ultimately, let's go back to that question. Is this working

for me? Is this working for my child? Her spitting in your face doesn't sound like it works for you, right? And so you're instantly going. Correct. I'm assuming. Unless you're into that thing. I'm assuming it doesn't work for you. It wouldn't work for me either. And so you're like, well, it doesn't work for me. So exactly what you do, what you do is beautiful. And I would add, look at my face, I don't like it when you're spitting it. So we're going to stop the game. I can see it got too much. And you're a good kid. And I know you had so much fun and you couldn't help it. I know that wasn't your intention to me. We don't say all this. But essentially if we can say, I get it. We're having so much fun. But I don't want you spinning my face. And I

told you before we started, if you spat or if you kicked me, we would have to stop the game. So we're going to stop now. We're not done forever. We'll try again tomorrow. And that is so beautiful because you're helping her learn to regulate. But the bigger picture is not the behaviour. I don't care whether she's spitting in the face or anything because she's little in it. It's so developmentally normal. But if we want to help her with those skills in the playground,

practicing it with you is divine. Yeah. So do it. Love that. Yeah. You mentioned regulation a lot and meltdown. I mean, I've got two kids that melt down over various things, as they do. As does Matt, as did.

Yeah, as do I. Yeah. At one point. At one point, no, still. Still, okay, great. And I think for me, it's also me trying to regulate my emotions and also trying to figure out what they're melting down about. Because a lot of the time it's something so small and you think, it's ridiculous.

And that's my first thought. But it's deeper than that, isn't it? It is. So often, you know, kids can't walk up to us and say, you know, I'm adjusting to be a big brother or sister or Tommy snatched off me in the sandpit today or, you know, I just can't name what it is. The world just sometimes is big and it's, it's a lot to learn to fill your feelings. And so what they do is they show us through behaviour.

And, you know, it's often about the cup or the fact you cut their toasty, even though they wanted their toasty cut yesterday, or the fact that you peeled a banana wrong or they broke a banana. And if I can share a meltdown story that I think could help, because we're all dealing with this right. And I think one of the hardest things to do as a parent is to be with our kids when they're not okay. And for most of us, when we were not okay as kids,

we were told, go to your room and come back when you're together. And it worked in the sense that shut us up, didn't really teach us how to regulate our emotions. And interestingly, we weren't in there Googling ways to regulate my emotions. And so we're trying to sort of do that differently with our kids, but it's really hard. And we do sit there struggling about, well, what's the underlying reason? I don't think you need to know.

All you need to know is my kid's not okay. that's it. So anyway, my story is that I just had my fourth child. I was cooking dinner. I was about two weeks postpartum. I had my baby in a baby carrier and my husband was not home. I had half the neighbourhood tearing around my house and I was questioning some of my decision making, you know? Yep. And my two-year-old Tommy walked up and he's like, can I have a banana? I'm like, yeah, sure. He goes, can you peel it? I go, yeah, sure. And in the process of peeling it, I did what you should never do to any two-year-old. I broke that banana.

How dare you. Shame! And he did not want that banana anymore because it was broken. What? I know. Can kids just, can they fucking cut that out? Yeah,

I'll ask him. I'll see what they say. Did he just figure out to like rewire the dinner? Should we put out a memo to all the kids? Dear kids of the world. The banana tastes the same whether it's broken or it? No, it doesn't make you. So he's like banana broken and even though I do what I do and even though I know what kids

need at a logical level in that moment, I was like, I am going to do anything I can to just shut this kid up. So I was like, I will chop it up, put it in a bowl and give you a spoon, which used to work for my kids. And he was like, yeah, banana. And I was like, okay, what about some logic? So I hold up the fruit bowl. Have you ever done this?

And I'm like, look in the bowl. I don't have any bananas. And he's like, I don't care for your logic. I want a banana. And then I was, I was desperate. was opening the cupboard going anything you want anything you want and he's like banana and then i was like holding up the iPad like what about the wiggles like and and actually what i was fighting was was you know and it links to the start of the story about that rage that feeling of like wanting to

scream go to your room which i know is not going to help any two year old but man i wanted to do it so badly and this is a good story in that i caught it right and it was all Almost like this moment of like, he doesn't need me to fix this or solve this or stop this. He needs me to let him know. I get it. So I sat on the floor and I only said three things. And all I said was what happened. I said, your banana broke.

You really didn't want it to break. And you're really, really sad about this. Within six seconds, his head was leaning against my shoulder. Within seven seconds, I looked down and he's eating his little freaking banana. And I sat there actually blown awake despite the fact I have practiced at this. so much. I was blown away by A, how well it works, B, you know, how hard it is to do. And C, I had just had a third baby, a fourth baby. Oh, jeez. Again, questioning decisions. I had just had a fourth baby. And this kid had had me

go to hospital for five days. The baby was not feeding very well and all of the stuff that happens. And I was cooking dinner and, you know, there's so much going on. And you just think, for that kid, you know, yeah, it was about the banana, but it was. about, man, I have regulated through so much stuff and there is so much change in my world and now my banana has broken and I just need you to be with me in the banana. So the biggest thing I'd say is you don't need to know what is happening here. I think you need to just go, you're not okay. Your banana broke, you're really sad about it and I'm just going to sit with you

without attempting to fix it. Yes. Yeah, I automatically go into that fixing mode and that's one of the. many things I'm struggling with at the moment. But for me, I find that I'm not regulating myself enough when they're not regulating. And I'm quickly learning that how are they supposed to learn if I, if I'm not teaching the regulation correctly or even validating their feelings sometimes? And I'm catching myself a lot, dismissing it and just knee-jerk reacting to it. Instead of going, hang on a sec, okay, this is a small, very small child who is still trying to

learn basic emotions and I'm finding that I've struggled a lot with my life with unrelenting standards and I'm starting to project that onto my children and when the meltdown happens instead of sitting with them like you say which is what I should be doing I'm expecting more of them do you know it's so hard to do something that was not modelled for you if we were sent to our room when we melted down and most of us were or even if not even with the most beautiful, I had the most beautiful loving upbringing, but I was told to turn that frown upside down or the wind would change and I get stuck like that. Those messages taught you unequivocally, we don't do that in this relationship. And now here you are back in the kitchen with this small

person that is bringing up the stuff that you were taught, not at a cognitive level, but at a physical level, we don't do that. So much as you know cognitively, I should hold space and regulate and model your body is going make it stop exactly right yeah and so can i cut all the advice out that you've ever had about i should and i'm asked and i need to name and all the stuff and i want to just tell you one thing you could do put your hand on your heart and say this shit is really hard i'm doing the best i can that is self-compassion and if we could give ourselves that we're going the parent so I don't care what happens next you're going to parent so much better and I want to explain why because what's happening for you in that moment is your whole system is going this isn't safe

I need to stop it I need to fix it and and you might think that you might be harder on yourself and say do better tomorrow and don't yell at your kids and all that stuff we do to ourselves as parents but if you could stop and go I'm doing the best that I can that self-compassion that self-kindness it lowers your cortisol because what is happening in you is literally the same as what's happening and your kid, it's a stress response. We step in and offer ourselves the compassion that maybe we might have liked as a two-year-old or a three-year-old,

and we say, you're doing your best. You will instantly start breathing a little bit better. You will instantly be more present and less in fight, flight or freeze. And then whatever you do for your child is okay. You'll be a bit better. I definitely needed to hear that. She's good.

It's not very often that I am speechless and Matt will be. But I don't have any response because it's kind of what I needed to hear. It's such an important message, I think. Yeah, thank you for that. Thank you for having me. Is that it? Are we wrapping up?

No, I nearly see it up there for a sec. I'm saying to Ash, like, when are you going to fucking cry? Like, when are you going to have to? Sorry. It almost, it almost. It's, no, it's not. It's such a fucking hard job. It really is.

It's such a hard job. But we are the first generation of parents and particularly dads, particularly dads, because this was not modeled by. your dads particularly. You know, your mums might have met some of your emotional needs, but your dads did not have the skills on the whole. And so you're doing something that was so unmodeled. You have no script for this.

And you can't do it at a cognitive level alone. But I think if you can offer yourself some kindness and go, you're trying really hard. Instantly, you're that little bit better placed. And then there's the kid in front of you. And whatever you do, will be right for them. Yeah. I could ask so many questions, but I won't because I know we're running out of time.

I do have one really quick question. I have two really quick questions. One is when it comes to discipline, as a quick example, I was an idiot. I bought some slime. Lola was playing with... Don't ever buy slime. Thank you. You went against the golden rule.

And I said to Lola, and I hate to pinpoint Lola in all my scenarios, but I said, you've got to keep it on the table. It goes on the floor on the carpet, then I'm going to take it away from you. It ended up on the carpet. I'd then warned her, happened again, I took it away from her. And then her reaction at the moment to a lot of scenarios where I discipline, and I'm the bad cop, is I hate you. And nothing I really say at the moment will stop her from saying that.

I try and say, I'm not going to let you say that word. It's not a nice word. It's very, it hurts my feelings. She'll continue saying it. And then I'm thinking to myself, do I need to send it to a room or give a time out? What should my reaction be when she's saying relentlessly? I hate you every time I try and discipline you. First of all, I would give yourself a big congratulations because,

when our kids learn to say harsh words to us, their regulation is coming online. It's actually a positive sign. So initially when kids are distressed, they show us their emotions physically, so they hit and they spit and they kick and they throw toys. And then they start to get older and they learn to say harsh words. And they say things like,

I hate you, you're the worst parent ever. I mean, kids say, I've heard it all. They will say, I want you to die. I mean, they can look at you and threaten your life and you think,

should I let the police know? So really, really harsh. The biggest hack I have for you in that moment to help you is what I do. And it is this. Imagine that rather than your child saying that they hate you, what they're saying is, I hate this feeling. It is so hard to have gotten something wrong. I'm a good kid and I don't want to have much of this up.

And I hate that the slime's been taken away and this is hard and I'm dysregulated. And I hate this feeling. And they say I hate you because they're learning how to express themselves and it's clunky as they learn and actually if we can sort of view it like that now we can respond with you hate this feeling or I know it's hard when I say no

or nothing just like you know the biggest thing you can say to your kid is yeah it's just you're not okay and I don't think you actually need to deal with those words at all I have a core rule in my house with bound I have four core rules no hitting or hurting no damage to our environment or our property and no name calling

And when someone says stop, or they're crying, we stop and we check on them. And other than that, I wouldn't be stepping in. So if my kid says, I hate you, I'm kind of going, I can say you're having a hard time. If my kid calls me a bitch, I'm going to say, whoa, that's crossing a family line. I'm not going to let you do that. So we're going to go and sit in your room. Which child was that? Who said that?

Which one was it? Do you tell us which one it was right now? None of them have to actually said that word. I said it to my dad once, which I'll be. I can still remember. Well, I've got the tables of terms. No, actually, I called my dad. What did I call my dad?

I think I said he was a dickhead or something. I am. Other than that, I was working with a mum the other day, and she was introducing her older child to the baby. The baby was having its first breastfeed, and she said, this is the, your baby brother, he's feeding off mummy. You know, this is how he eats. And this two-year-old looked her in the eye with this wicked look

and went, well, I want to eat the baby. She's like, Jen, do I need to talk to him about that? And I'm like, no. He's just expressing, this is tricky. Like, I'm upholding my kids who are four and six to the same communication standards as an adult. Yeah, exactly. Jim mentioned it earlier, just quickly on that, when she was saying that they start to push back on where they, like, trust, right?

And then you said that she's sort of building to the point. point where she's regulating, not physically, but starting to articulate it. So to me, it's like, they're hurtful words, but maybe she just trusts you that she can say that to you, right? A hundred percent. You know, and this is what I'm, like, holding in my heart as my 16-year-old rolls the eyes every time I breathe, and I'm like, it's love. Your cringe, ma'am. Your cringe, mom, like that. That's where that probably. Because believe me, they push back even harder in those years. But, you know, kids will push against that beautiful, safe. that's the wall of love that they can push against, you know, and that's what we want.

We want our kids to hopefully learn to go out into the world and kind of follow the rules eventually. I kind of want Lola to tell me that she hates me so I can handle the situation a lot better. I'm like, come on, say it. When she gets home, just please say it. You can go, you hate things really. What she's really saying that is that I love you. She's saying, thank you, Dad.

And, you know, I look, I don't think in the moment our kids, especially a four-year-old, she's hearing about two in ten of your words if that so you're wasting your time with oh that hurts my feelings but also i think our job is to be you know bigger and stronger and wiser and kind and our kids are going to say and do a billion terrible things and make a lot of mistakes and our job is to go hey and i love you no matter what i can see you having a hard time and then as they get old or maybe outside the moment you go i'm thinking about that thing you said earlier and that that did hurt my feelings and maybe we could work on some other ways we can express ourselves in the moment. But I wouldn't be doing that at four. Yeah. She's, she's a cool kid, man.

She's very good. Jen, I'm very intrigued to know what your answer is to this question. We ask all, I guess, the final question. When your boys are all grown up and they're no longer living at home, what is the one thing you would want to remember about the house they grew up in? Oh, gosh. The four rules, Matthew. That's so tough. I know. Sorry. That they were lovable and worthy of love, no matter what, in the good, in the bad, when they absolutely muck it up and they steal and they lie and they make all the mistakes

that kids will make over the time, that they were lovable and loved. You didn't disappoint. Jan, thank you so much. Thank you so much. It is honestly such a pleasure to hear you talk about parenting in a way that is so non-judgmental, but so helpful. Thank you. Yeah, I agree with Matt.

So thank you so much for spending some time with us. And we are going to get you back. Oh, I'll be there. We want to ask you about going back to school. Yes. Not to put it back on Lola again. But we wish... I'll see you're starting school.

I didn't help. Good thing she's not here. And it's going to be real. I can't wait for the next episode. So thank you so much. Thank you guys. Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today.

This episode was recorded on Gatigal Land.