Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #215 Child Safety with Kristi McVee

Episode Date: April 5, 2026

Today's guest is a former detective who spent ten years on the force interviewing kids - so she knows everything there is to know about keeping them safe. Kristi McVee is also a mum, so she knows how hard it can be getting kids to tell us anything! So she's got some great advice and even a card game to help kids to start thinking about their safety and how to open up to us about it. We all love our kids but we might not always know how best to protect them - well in this chat, Kristi shows us how we can arm our kids with the best tools to stay safe from now until adulthood. If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

claim that we don't give advice. But every so often, it's nice to get someone in who knows what they're talking about. I know, just to confirm, the advice is definitely not coming from us. Oh, 100%. But we do have an expert here. We have Christy McVee. She is a mum. She's also an ex-detective. And she's talking about a topic which, for a lot of parents, will be quite triggering. So just to let you know, the content from this episode does talk about sexual abuse and children. So after many years of being on the police force, she has gathered what she has learned and decided to put it into prevention and educating parents and how to have those conversations with kids. Yeah, this is such an important episode. I think we all want nothing but safety for our kids.

So this episode will give you the information to help build confidence and empower your children. That includes both what information should be shared at what age group and also other things to look out for. Some of the warning signs, if you are going to have a conversation, how to open up that dialogue. There's no doubt, Matt, we all love our kids, but we can't be there for them all the time. so it's important to arm them with the information to help them stay safe. Ultimately, we want to protect them as best as we can. Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mum. I'm Maddie J.

I'm Ash. And I'm the Combat Wombat. Yes! Yes, she used it. She used it. Now you can tell us. This is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good, is the bad.

And we don't give advice. But the Combat Wombat will, on this episode, why is it the Combat Wombat? Because when I was in the police academy, apparently I ran like a wombat. And that is the nickname the men in my school. So I ran like this with my, and if any of these blokes are watching, you were ourselves.

Oh, there you go, yeah. And they didn't even tell me until the end of the academy. Like, they'd been calling me this for six months. That's me. I know. But you know what, I'm going to own it. I love the name, but now I'm not the meaning. No, no, bad.

Yeah, because. I ran like this, like a little, apparently like a little wombat. Well, they're very fast. Wombat's a quick. They are far. They're also sturdy. They're also strong. That was me.

There you go. The combat wombat. And I never gave up. I love that. But once again, to those bullies listening, report to HR. Yes, yes. We do start these podcasts with a simple question, and it is.

Do you remember the most trouble you got into as a child? I got into a fair bit of trouble around my late teens. So I wrote a number. note to my best friend in English and I got caught and I got sent to boarding school. Oh, what? What can I note were you writing? Nothing. It was just talking to each other, but it got me sent to boarding school. Holy shit. I know, I know. I was just, I sneeze and they expelled me. Passing notes at school was just the write of passage, was it? That's right. We had a like a book that we wrote all of our like back and forth. I found angels by the way. I found my

wife's book that, yeah. You didn't read it, did you? From high school? From high school, yeah. Yeah. So you know what I'm talking about. I know I'm talking about it. Yeah, girls be mean in books like that. Oh, it was mean. Yeah. So yeah, I don't even remember what was in it or what I wrote, but I got caught and my English teacher run my parents and then the next thing I was, and it was at the end of the year. So then the next year I went to boarding school. Do you think the decision for boarding school, did that come from the teacher as in this is, that was. No, no, this was the parents. The parents decided, oh, you're too much trouble. We don't want to deal with a teenager. Let's send her to boarding school. Just like that. That's not even that bad. I know. No, there was. probably lots of, like, thoughts around that.

My parents were much older. They had some health problems. But that's what I thought at 15. Like, at 13, I mean, like, oh, I've just written a note and it got me in trouble. Yeah, you'd be like, fuck you guys. They'll be looking for a way out. They'll have a call. Here it is.

Oh, wow. That's what it felt like. But I know that there was a lot more to it. But, you know, parents didn't talk about this stuff back in the day. Like, they didn't tell you their decisions. You just, oh, you're going to boarding school next year. Oh, those were the days. Yeah.

Yeah, like we don't talk about, you know, troubles with the family off the, or if there's any issues with money or anything like that. Was it co-ed or was it same-sex? It was same sex. It was a very expensive boarding school. I didn't fit him because I was a Pilbrew kid. I'm a country kid by heart. See, I kind of thought, this is incorrectly here,

but I thought someone who would end up being a detective would be the school principal. The ducks of the school. The prefect, the person who was like, put your hat on. Detention. Yeah, well, I got caught, like, smoking in the state. dearwell. I just was rebelling back. Oh, it unravels. Yeah, I was just rebelling back then, you know, like as a teenager does. Like, kids do kid things. And so it just, it shouldn't be the end of the world and you shouldn't get sent to boarding school, but it just felt like I was

being punished. So then what was it that drew you down the path of being in the police force? I thought I wanted to be a pilot in the Air Force, because I love Top Gun when I was a kid. Guilty? Yeah. Do you know, Maverick? All that, goose. I'd never sent it. Look at the faces in the What? Get out. I'm serious. I think I'll take this record from now. All right. I'll see myself out.

What? Yeah. All right. That's it. You have to take him to go watch both movies. He can't watch movies. Oh, really? One of them.

Oh, okay. Great film, though. Great film. Yeah. So I've heard. So I thought I wanted to be an Air Force pilot when I was a kid. But growing up, I never had any plans and ambitions. I actually got kicked out of home.

at 15. So I spent three years living with my boyfriend's family and then bought a house at 18, went down the path of working and at the ripe old age of 28, saw an ad in the paper and it said we want more women in the police in the West Australian police. I had a nine-month-old daughter and I went, I could do that. Everyone laughed at me and I thought, fuck you, I'm going to go and show you. So I did. Good for you. Any desire prior to that? Never. Not a thing. You were influenced by a paper. Yep. Wow. I was reading it during my daughter's nap time.

Like I was literally at home waiting, stay at home mom at the time. She was nine months old having a nap and I saw it and I was like, yeah. And it was like, you know, flexible working arrangements, interesting career paths. You get a gun. All of that. And so I thought, yeah, I could do that. And it stuck with me because days later I actually spoke up and said something to my husband. And he kind of went, are you sure?

Are you serious? And I was like, yeah, because I'd worked in administration. What have been reading again? Yeah, I'd worked in administration. I'd been working in offices. And I didn't know what I wanted to go back to when I finished like maternity leave. And he's very supportive. My husband was. He's like, yeah, give it a go.

If you get in, you get in. But when I told the rest of my family, they're like, nice one. Yeah. Family's so supportive, aren't they? So supportive. So then I started training. Like my daughter would have a nap during the day. We lived on a six acre property because I had horses and I used to do hill sprints.

And my neighbor used to see me every day because she was at home with her kid. she would send me a message going, good run today. And then I had got a PT. It took me about 10 months, maybe 12 months to get in. I applied in about 2009, April 2009, actually, and then got the letter in November 2009 to say, I got a place in the squad. Is it rude and sorry to be naive here to say you're a cop?

Is that in any way to rock a tree? Okay, great. Because my mum was like, don't call her a cop. That's what we call each other. Your mom acts like she grew up in like the toughest time. Just like, don't call them cops. Yeah, I was like, they'll beat you. It would be rude if you called me any other name like pig or, you know.

Oh, yeah. Hang on. Cross, that was going to be my next one. What is the pathway to being a detective? And when you entered the force, was that always the goal where you wanted to end up? I didn't know. Like, I joined the police. I went through the academy, six months in the academy.

My daughter was just two when I got in, like, or turned to when I was in there. And so I didn't have any ideas where I was going with it. I just thought, okay. And then my husband actually got a transfer to the Pilbara back to the Pilbara in Caratha. And so I said, can I move to Caratha? Because he's up there and, you know, we've got a young daughter. So they transferred me up there. So that was my first posting.

I did four years in the Pilbara working in a rural community. Do you remember your first arrest? Yep. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's very, very vivid in my brain. Do you mind sharing? It's not a, like, great story.

It was a domestic violence arrest and it wasn't great. But it was a very eye-opening experience because in the academy, they're like, this might happen, this might happen. We pretend, you know, like you're arresting people and they're actors and, you know, you're handcuffing people and it's not in a real situation. And then you're in a real situation where you have to jump in. How long have you been on the force before you made that first arrest? The first day of the first.

And so, you know, and luckily they put you with someone who's more senior. You're thrown in the deep end when you go out into the community anyway. So it was an interesting one. Holy shit. And I'm like five foot one. I'm not very tall. Yeah. So it was interesting.

I learned to use my mouth and talk people down. Yeah. I suppose like first down, you ripped the band-aid off first day. I think like do you think after that first one, do you sort of desensitized to it? Oh, it takes time. Like you train your adrenaline and your nervous system to like not react to things. You asked about going into detectives and stuff. Like that was, you know, I was in the police four years before I joined detectives.

You have to like sort of do your time before you can. You have to do general duties. You have to prove that you have the mental capacity and the right attitude to become a detective because it's a next level up. You know, as a general duties police officer, you're arresting or you're dealing with first response. Like you're attending the situations first up. And I mean, look, there's a little bit of an us and them thing. with general duties to detectives because detectives, you know,

they wear their plain clothes and they've got their little badge on their belt and stuff like that. But you're then dealing with serious crime. So you have to have more knowledge around legislation and more knowledge around powers and you're interviewing better interviewing techniques. So you have to do some time doing that before you step into that. We have a left field one on that front. For the men and women of the police force,

what sort of support do they have mentally within that sort of stuff? Because, I mean, it's traumatic, right? You've got to train yourself to, what, just get on with it? Or do they provide someone for you to talk to afterwards? Look, every police force has their own health and welfare division that's there to support police. Each person will have their own opinion on this. But it needs to be managed and you need support and you need help. You know, I got depression within the first three years of being a police officer.

And it was the first time in my life had ever had depression. And the reason, it was situational. It was because I thought I had to be a service. certain way in order to be a police officer. So I thought it had to be hard. I couldn't have feelings. Because, you know, within the first couple of months, I was dealing with sudden deaths. I was dealing with child abuse. I was dealing with road crashes. I was dealing with everything. So you lean on the people beside you. You lean on your partners and your team because you're in teams and they do their best. But none of them are psychologists. None of that, you know, and a lot of police,

sadly, and I'm sure some will say, you know, one of the ways that we dealt with it was to go get drunk. And, you know, the first time I ever went to a sudden death and I had to give CPR, I was due to finish work at 7am and they pulled me, I was about to go home to my family and they're like, nah, uh, you're coming with us and we went and got blind. And that was really hard because I wasn't actually a big drinker, but that was how they dealt with it. And so you had to conform. And that was in the first three months. So that was kind of the culture and it can be the culture of policing. So I'm not telling police officers anything they don't already know. It's not a healthy way to deal with trauma. Yeah, yeah. And it's such an old-school way of thinking.

It's still there. You don't want to be that new person you want to fit in. You don't want to be, actually, I'm going to go against the grain and I'll leave you guys. If you don't fit in, you don't fit in. And like towards the end of my career, that's how it was like I didn't fit in. But to get back to your question, within nine months of being a police officer, the senior sergeant of the detectives went around to the station and said, who wants to become a specialist child interviewer? And I put my hand up. And I was a probationary constable at the time. And he said, well, you can't do it because you're a probationary constable. And I was like, okay, well, I'd really like to do it if you don't find anyone else.

Why did you want to do it? Why did you put your hand up? I don't know. I just remember feeling like in that first week, I went to that domestic violence incident and then I dealt with a woman who had been abused or physically assaulted by a family member. And then, and within the first week, I'd done so many things. But one of the biggest things I saw was a child who had been I was the first responder to a child, an 11-year-old child who'd had a sleep over at her best friend's house and been sexually abused at that house. And so I had to take the statement of the family. And it was kind of like, I had a three-year-old at home or two-and-a-half-year-old at home and I was sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, like I didn't know. You know, like, yes, I know, but I hadn't had it in my face yet like that.

And then I just had many, many more instances after that, like within the first six months, you know, it was week after week of, like dealing with all sorts of sexual abuse and trauma. And so I think I just felt like what more can I do? Like I wanted to be there. I was a mum. I was a mum of a little girl and I just wanted to, I remember thinking I just want to do more for kids. And so I think that's where that path started and my daughter was the reason and just

wanting to know how to protect her as well. And then, yeah, I put my hand up. He said no. And then he couldn't find anyone else to do it. So I got sent on it. And, you know, and I was in the job. less than nine months and I became a specialist child interviewer. When you feel like you want to make a difference and protect kids in the time that you spent specialising in that field, did it feel like

you were making a difference or did it just feel like as soon as you do it with one case, another one is right behind it and it's just relentless? Yep. The second one. It's hard to explain. It's like sitting across a table like this, right? And there's a camera in the corner and there's a little microphone on the table and you're talking to a child, you know, up from three all the way to 18 and in that moment you're doing something important you're giving them a voice but then you know after the fact I could tell them how brave they were I could tell them how much you know that how well they did I could explain to them that you know it's what happened to them wasn't okay and you know that will do our best that was the most rewarding part of it all but the system itself is really not

looking after kids and you don't and towards the end of my career after nearly after 10 years I realised that police don't protect kids. They just clean up the mess after the fact. Right. Man. So then how was it as a mother when you're dealing with these horrific situations? How do you then take your detective hat off and then put your mother hat on and look after your daughter?

Yeah. It was hard because sometimes I would be dealing with a child, similar age. I look at them and I look at my daughter and it's like looking at her and I would be, you know, hearing the worst things that had happened to them. And I would be sitting there thinking, could be my girl, could be her. And she would, you know, so I would go home and hug her a bit more and just basically try and be in the moment with her.

It made me very hypervigilant, very protective, especially when she was younger. People always ask me, how was your child even able to, like, is she not scared of everything? And I'm like, no, because I taught her the things that she needed to know. I realized throughout my career is that we can't protect them in a bubble. Like we can't keep them home all the time. We can't, you know, wrap them up and cotton bull. What we can do is arm them and we can empower them and we can let them know exactly what they need to know because I saw kids day and day out talking to kids day and day out

who had been sexually abused and abused and they were so resilient. And they still were like worrying about what they were doing on the weekends and what their friends were doing and what clothes they were buying. And could they go to Maccas after they'd spoken to me about? about the worst things that had happened. Like they weren't, it wasn't stopping them. It was just another part of their life. And so the thing is, is that, yes, child sexual abuse and what I was seeing was, is

terrible and it's the worst thing that could ever possibly happen to anyone. In fact, I've been quoted as saying that it's worse than murder to me because it changes the trajectory of a child's life. But the thing is, is that kids don't let that stop them. If they have safe, protected parents, if they have someone to help them heal, if they have someone to listen to, they go on to live full lives. And so that's what I knew is that even if she did get sexually abused, she would be okay. When you look at all of the cases over your time and the fourth,

I don't know if there's an answer to this, but could you start to piece together, first of all the situations where this was happening, and then secondly, the type of person that was committing these crimes. Like for me, maybe it's just what I see in media, but for me it's more prevalent among men. Yep. But is there a certain kind of checklist or criteria that you can look at that would raise alarm bells? Yeah, I did.

I did see things. But it's not everyone, but it can be anyone, right? So the thing was is that, yes, it is predominantly men, around 90% as men. But sadly, 10 to 12% can be women. And we just had a case in Western Australia of a teacher who sexually abused a young boy and, you know, has been charged, pled guilty. And she ended up having his baby. So in Western Australia, just really. recently and, you know, he was only in his early teens. And sadly, one in four Australian

adults have been sexually abused, 28.5%. And that's current statistics as of two years ago. You know, one in three girls and one in five boys will be sexually abused before they're 18. Holy shit. And it is a bigger problem than what most people think because we think, oh, not my family, not my community, not my, you know, whatever. But it's, in my experience, it's every demographic, every community. If there's someone in your family that's been sexually abused and they might not feel like they can talk up, speak up, because we don't talk about it in our families.

How can I, as a parent, not that I want to be looking at everyone with this lens of like, well, are you going to be a fucking pedophile and are you going to assault my child? And I also am conscious that I don't want to look at someone who could be completely innocent and start to think, well, hang on, they're doing A, B and C, maybe they are. But at the same time, I want to be video. What can I look out for?

Yeah, we call it grooming, but, you know, a good friend of mine, she calls it friending up. So someone who's really wants to spend more time with kids than adults. Like, I tell a story in some of my presentations about a family member brings someone to a Christmas party, and they're the boyfriend of, you know, a cousin or something like that. And this person, this male, he spent all this time with the kids. He was hanging out, playing games, gaming with them. Everyone's like, come out and have a drink outside. And he's like, no, no, like hang on with the kids.

kids. And so, you know, that seems like really cool because, you know, wants to be around the kids. In the end, he did actually attempt to sexually abuse one of the girls at the Christmas party. Most of the time it takes a lot longer is what I'm about to say. You know, it's a lot more manipulative and a lot more. Premeditated? Yeah, premeditated is the word. Like, there's a lot more thought goes into it. You don't do that. Generally, you're going to get caught if you do it that fast. But he was doing that. So if someone wants to spend more time with your kids than you do, that's a red flag, but also people who they're not respecting bodily autonomy for kids. One of the things that I teach is like, we need to make sure our kids understand that what their private parts are and the mouth

is a private part. And so our private parts are our privates. No one else is allowed to touch, look at or take photos of our private parts because, you know, they're our private parts. And you don't have to go any more further into it than that. And anyone who does, you come and tell one of your safe people, which is, you know, your five safe people and you help them understand who those people. are, you know, mommy, daddy, auntie, nana, whoever, when they get old enough, they choose their safe people because we could be choosing someone that might not be safe. So if there's a parent out there right now listening and they don't have the phrase of safe people and have them identified, that should be one thing that you definitely put up at

the top of your list. Yeah. You also mentioned then that they have to be old enough to pick their safe people. Eventually, yeah, but a lot of kids don't understand, well, sorry, it's not that they don't understand, they don't have the language. Yep. And the language is, these are my private parts. We name them.

And number one, make sure that you're using the correct terminology for body parts. You can have nicknames, but they need to know both. Because one of the things that I found when interviewing kids is that if they weren't able to disclose what private part was, then most likely it can't be taken any further. So if they're not able to say they touched or they did this to my private part, as a detective, I have to decide whether it was, and I apologize to listeners, but if it's a sexual penetration or an indecent dealing, whether it's just touching or something's actually happened further. So, you know, they need to be able to disclose a child, poor little child,

three, four, five, six years old has to be able to say what's happened. So if they can't name it clearly, their private parts and what it is, the name of it, it can be considered insufficient evidence. It can't go any further down the judicial pathway. With younger children then, how do you put together a case? For those who are really young. Yeah, so under three, police don't interview children under the age of three. So if a child is abused under the age of three,

unless there's other evidence, then nothing happens. Wow. And then when you are talking to children, I'm assuming that the age of the child as a parent will determine how much information you go into. So what are those age groups like and how do we tell the information specific?

to that age. Yeah, so for instance, and as you can tell, I'm using certain language, like safe, unsafe, appropriate, inappropriate, private, public. We use language. So we don't even have to talk about abuse with young children specifically, which is amazing because a lot of parents say to me, oh, Christy, I don't know how to talk to my kids. I don't want to make them scared. And I asked my 18-year-old last week or the week before and put it on socials. I said, did you grow up scared of being sexually abused? And with everything that I've taught you and everything think I've told you and she said, no, I didn't. What I was scared of is when my nana told me that I could be kidnapped from the toilets at the shops if I didn't go with her. And so, you know,

like said things like that. Older generations use like fear tactics to make kids stay with them. If you run away, someone will steal you or if you do this. So she said, that's when I got scared or if someone acted inappropriately around me and that would make me scared in the moment. but she said, you never made me scared because you always gave me the next step, what to do next. So we talk to kids about, you know, if someone touches their private parts and we've got body safety rules, which is my body is my body, no one's allowed to touch my body unless I give them permission to, if anyone needs to look at my private parts like a nurse or a doctor or someone in regards to, you know, because I need help, then my safe adults with me.

And who are safe adults, they're the people who make me feel safe and they listen to me, believe me and always make me feel safe. So do you think, excuse my bad singing here, but Lola has a song they went in at daycare and it goes, please stop. I don't like it. I need some space. It's just my boundary. And I'm like, it's a great song. It's like good message. And I'm doing her hair and she'll start singing the song going, please stop. And I'm like, well, how do I enforce the fact that you need to brush her hair? That's it. And the fact that she doesn't want me in a a space, it's redundant because I need to get a ready to school. Yeah, right. So a lot of kids will say, my body, my rules, I don't need to do the dishes because, or my body, my rules, I don't need to

brush my teeth kind of thing. And I always say, when it comes to my body, my rules and my body, my space, please get out of my private place or whatever it is, you know, their little bubble. Because they do teach them in early childhood, because kids go around hugging, kids go on, like, you know, they get in their faces. So that's a really good way to have. help kids understand. Like, this is my space. No one's allowed in it unless I want you to be. But one of the things that I say to parents is,

if it doesn't break a body safety rule, it doesn't count. So, for instance, doing dishes isn't breaking a body safety rule. No one's seeing anything, touching anything, doing anything that's going to make you feel unsafe. Dude, you got, you're part of the family. We're all here as a team. You've got to do the dishes.

I'm going to try to pull that one on April. I can't do it. My body, my choice. I can't do the dishes tonight. Thank you. But, you know, like, kids try it. And you know what? I also say is, wow, you've so got the body safety rules. Well done. Guess what? Doesn't count on

this part. Do you say I'm one of your safe people? Is that? Well, safe people are someone who listens, believes and always makes them feel safe. So what we really need to be mindful of is our body tells us that we feel unsafe before our brain catches up. And for most children, they will realize that they feel unsafe before they actually can verbalise it. So it's really important that we give them the language of what unsafe and safe feels like. So I always start with the safe feelings. What's it feel like in your body when you feel safe or happy? Because that's an easy one for little ones. My daughter used to say, oh, I feel like I'm getting a warm hug and my heart feels big and it just feels so nice. And I'd be like, oh, cool, cool. All right. So what does it feel like when

you don't feel safe or you feel scared? And she would be like, oh, I get butterflies in my tummy. I get a stomachache, big one for kids who don't feel safe. I get a stomachache. My head hurts. you know, I can't speak. There's lots of things, right? Okay, so when you feel those feelings, that's really important that we know that that means that we don't feel safe right now. And then what we do is we tell someone, we tell someone on our safety team, our five safe people. And who do you think would be on your safety team? Someone who listens to you, believes you and makes you feel safe, makes you feel happy and warm. And that could be mum, dad, Nana, whoever. And, you know, as they age, that team will change. It could add in a teacher, it could be a family

friend. But kids need to know, first of all, how it feels to feel unsafe and safe, and second of all, who they can go to because that's the next step. When you feel those feelings, you go and tell someone. Now, to add to that safe and unsafe, there's a little bit more to it because there's risking on purpose and fun to be scared, going on a ride at the movie world or whatever, fun to be scared, right? You're going to have those scary feelings in your body before you do it, but you get that adrenaline rush, it makes me, or going down a slide for a little kid, right? but that risking on purpose could be coming on this podcast, could be talking in public,

it could be standing up in your classroom and reading out loud. And then there's feeling unsafe, it's feeling scared. So there's a continuum. And when we help our kids understand each of those feelings, they're able to either A, push through it or B, if it's fun to be scared or risking on purpose, or they can tell someone and we can then help them make them feel safe again. Because I would think, like, also nervousness?

Yeah, that's one of the ones. But kids, you know, like they can learn to stand up and do talk in class, but they have to feel like when we squash down feelings and we don't acknowledge them, we can't help them understand it. So that's why it's really important. I think my biggest fear as a parent, having these conversations with my children, my daughter's now almost seven and five. I think I'm most scared about like you mentioned before, giving them too much information where it's really overwhelming for them. you've got a great game where you can tailor the conversations to specific age groups. Yeah. Can you talk us through the differences and what those age groups are like?

Yeah, so the conversations with kids cards, they're like conversation starters for parents, basically. And it goes through those early warning signs, that safety team, public versus private parts. And public versus private is not just, what are my public parts, what are my private parts? It's spaces, you know, toilets and bathrooms, and bedrooms. It could be clothes. what are our public and private clothes? So we're helping kids understand, you know, what are just for us?

Because private's just for us. Public is for everyone. So, you know, if we help them, then imagine all of the questions. So we start at like one to four, but you can talk about these things with your family from before you're with your newborn. And it goes through, you know,

what is our private parts using the correct anatomical names? And then also, you know, when we're doing things with our kids, especially little ones, we can talk them through what we're doing. because safe adults don't just do things, they explain it. Safe adults say, hey, I'm just going to change your nappy. I'm just putting this cream on.

I'm about to, like, would you like help today or would you like to do it yourself? You're giving them an option. That's what safe adults do. Unsafe adults don't. Very true. I think about that, like whenever we, anything like with the kids, like, for example, if Macy gets a lot of exma, right, in certain spots,

I was like, hey, I was going to put this cream on, okay. Yep. And explain it to it to it. Yeah. And then be like, does it feel better when I put the cream on? You know, even just that, and she'll be like, yeah, yeah, because, I mean, she trusts us, right? And she needs to understand what's happening to her body. It's her body. Absolutely. And so the thing is, is unsafe people, people who groom kids and who abuse kids,

they don't actually tell them what they're doing. They create a game, like, they make it into a game if they're little, they gamify abuse so that the children are confused and don't understand what's happening. And I've got cards that help with, like, what is a secret and what is a surprise? Yes. Do you have this question in your family? Yes, because if I was to surprise their mum with something, I'd like, hey, I got your mum this. Yeah.

But don't tell her yet. We'll all tell it together. She'd be like, Oscar straight up is an arc. He can't help. He can't help it. He's so excited. He's like, we don't keep secrets. Yeah, beautiful.

I love it. Yes. Surprise. This is a surprise. And safe adults don't ask kids to keep secrets. So they can ask them to keep surprises. Surprises are there's a time limit. There's no body safety rules being broken.

And then also, you can tell someone if you need to. So surprises are like birthday surprises, Christmas surprises, things like that, because it's got a set time limit and you can tell someone eventually. Secrets are things like someone doing something inappropriately to your body, someone who tells you not to tell your mum.

And I'm sorry for any grandparents listening, but grandparents, please stop telling your kids don't tell mum and dad because you're grooming them. I'm like, have a chocolate, but don't tell mummy because you'll get angry. I'm like, I've stopped myself a few times. You're the adult. So here's what I want to say, and I know that this is like, for some people, they're like, oh, but that's what groomers do.

And so the thing is, is you're an adult, be an adult, and take responsibility. If you give a chocolate and you have to own that. My daughter used to go to her nan who used to say, don't tell your mom, you're getting a hot chocolate at Dome. Or don't tell you in a mom, you're getting a squash frog or whatever it was. You sound like my grandmother. Oh, my God. I know. And don't tell mom.

And she'd go, I'm telling mom when I get home. And she, and, you know, like, she would be straight up. Nan gave me a squash frog. And, you know, I had to have a conversation with her and say, listen, you're the adult, be the adult. If you're going to give her something you know that I don't want her to have, then you need to own up for it and take the consequences, whatever that be. Very true, yeah. Yeah, and that's because it's so black and white for me. And I've got heaps and heaps of blogs on this.

Safe people, don't ask kids to keep secrets. It's so easy. It's so easy. Like, for example, like yesterday, Macy was like my youngest. She's four. And she were all in the house before my wife was taking my elders to school. And she was like, Mom, can have some tiny tetties? And it was like, no, it's the morning or whatever.

And then I'm, they left and I'm rushing around the house. And Macy was like, to me, can I have some tiny tenses? I'm like, yeah, okay. And I nearly went, don't tell your mom. Yeah, good on you. As a reaction. I'm going to give you a high five for that. Thank you.

Thank you. And I was like, I didn't say it because I was like, well, that's a secret. And it was like, well, you know, she wants to tell. tell mum it's fine. I'll tell mum now. But like, it's so easy to just slip. By the way, I gave a tiny teddy. But it's so easy to just slip that in there that like, don't tell them. Even when you're like, hey, don't tell them I gave you this. You think, they might think it's really cute and whatever, but unfortunately, the unsafe people do it. The unsafe people do it and it also teaches kids to keep secrets from family. Like the one of the body safety rules is we don't keep secrets.

You know, it's a body, it's a family rule. We don't keep secrets in our family. because secrets can lead to, you know, it can be dangerous. So, you know, and I want parents to know that some things we don't talk to our kids about, no, and I never spoke about abuse to my daughter. I never used the language abuse until she got older. And you asked about when do you start talking about it? Well, with regards to body safety and having these questions and, you know, using private and public and secret and surprise and inappropriate, appropriate,

eventually then I could talk to her about private and public pictures and videos. And then, so I never really talked to her about pornography. I just said, if you ever see anyone with no clothes on your device, you need to come and tell me because that's not for kids. It was like simple. And she was like, oh, okay. Like it was never, you know, like she never got in trouble for it. That's the other thing.

We have to learn how to react better because children test us with the little stuff before they trust us with the big stuff. And if we react to every little thing, they're not going to trust us with the big things. Well said, actually. I think these conversation with kids cards are so great. And there's not just one set. How many is there? And what are the age groups for them?

It's one to four, five to eight and nine to twelve. And the nine to twelve goes into more like the private and public pictures. And yeah, have a look. What do we do and say if someone says don't tell mummy and daddy. We say we don't keep secrets. See, the reason why these are all around my experience with what people do to groom kids. You know, groomers and people who harm kids, they will test kids to see if they will hold secrets, whether they'll keep secrets. So they will test them with little things. They will give

them treats. They will give them special treatment. They will do things like touch them inappropriately or run their hand on them and see if they will say something to a parent. And that's how they know whether that child is actually, they can go to the next phase of the grooming and abuse or if they stop. And if your child speaks up and says, stop it, I don't like it. And my daughter used to say that to her grandparents when they tickled her, she'd be like, stop it, I don't like it. And I had to have a conversation with her grandfather because he kept tickling and I was like, hey, she said stop. Like that's the other thing. As adults, safe adults, we should be respecting no and showing them that adults and everyone should respect your consent and your boundaries. If you say no,

and you know, like sometimes we rough house with our kids and we're playing rough and like they're going, no, no, no, you go, hey, is that a real no or is that a like play no? And just stop for a check, check in, good? Okay, we'll keep going. You make sure you tell me if you're maybe have a like a code word or something like that. But my daughter used to say, stop it, I don't like it. I had to have a conversation

because, you know, people were going past that. But when she got to a certain age, she said, stop it, I don't give consent. And then she was about 10.

And so if your 10-year-old goes, stop it, I don't give consent for you to do that. I don't want you to hug me. Do you think anyone's going to go near your kid? Yeah, that gets super serious, really cute.

Because Macy's a shocker for that. My kids are so tickleous. Like, you can literally touch them. Yeah. She'll be like, stop, stop, and I'll stop, and then she'll go, do again. I didn't mean stop. Do it again one more time.

And it's like, well, whoo, like, which one is it? Yeah, maybe a code word would be good. But, you know, like, the thing is, is that if you check in and they're cool for you to keep going, then, you know, the thing is games should always be fun for everyone. Yeah. And one of the things that I talk about is that when games go, because, again, games can be turned into inappropriate things. It breaks body safety rules.

Not everyone gets to choose to play the game. as in not everyone has a choice whether they want to keep going or when things happen. So the cards help you have those conversations and start those conversations. And just, I mean, there's no scripts with it yet, but, you know, they just help you sit down. I don't recommend sitting across a table like this and having a conversation with your kids. I actually recommend, and it's in the guidebook, that, you know, you find a space where you're sitting side by side. Kids don't want to be looked at when we're talking about this stuff. And I used everyday moments sometimes, like when we're having a shower or when we're, you know,

like she's getting changed. I would use moments in the car talking to each other. All of those things. In fact, my daughter at 8, she came to me and said, I don't want to ever have SEX. And I was like, what? We hadn't had that full conversation. She knew, like, nude people, mothers and dads. But she'd never, like, I'd never sat down and, like, explained sex to her at all.

She goes, I don't ever want to have SEX. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, first of all, what do you know about SEX? And she's like, oh, and that's a good question. So if your kids ever come to you and say, what's this? You say, oh, well, what do you know about it? Because they've heard it somewhere, right? And you want to know where they've heard it from or where they've seen it. And I was like, okay, so what do you know about SEX?

Oh, no, it's too gross. I'm not talking about it. And she did that for two or three days before I managed to get her in the car side by side. She couldn't escape. And that is the thing. That is the key to hard topics with. And usually you have to time it perfectly with just one child if you can. Yeah.

Because that, and I know a lot of parenting experts say that, you want to be one-on-one with those kids because you need to give them 100% attention. And they'll get embarrassed. And embarrassment, yeah. Yeah. So she was one-on-one with me. She was actually on her way to ballet in a tutu and her pink little leotard eight years old going, oh, I'm never having SEX.

And I was like, okay, I know that you've said this a couple of times now. And you haven't told me what you know about it yet. But I'm assuming, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that someone at school has told you about SEX, sex, and they've given you some information. But how do you know that it's actually correct? I said, so if you tell me what you know, then I can tell you if it's true or not. And she sat there for a bit and she goes, okay. And she said, it's when a man puts his penis in a woman's vagina and stuff comes out at the end of it and a baby's made. Like really blurted it out as fast as possible.

And I was like driving my little two-door hyonda gets on the freeway at 100 kilometers an hour to ballet. And she's gone, is it true? And I... How old was she at this point? Eight. Oh, whoa. And so this was a kid at school, has told her all of this, right? Older siblings.

Well, she'd read a book, the girl who actually told her. And it was. It was an older girl. She was a year older, but she was held down a year. So she's gone around and told all the kids in year three about this. And she'd read it in a book because she was quite smart. But anyway, so she said to me, and is it true? And I've sat there and I'll like drive in my car and I'm thinking, in my mind, in that moment, I just had this moment of like, if I don't tell her the truth, she's never going to trust me. Yeah. And I need to make her realize that it's okay to talk about this. And we talked about other stuff, like body safety stuff. And so I said, yes, it's true. Kind of, yes, it's true.

Like you're admitting it? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes, it's true. Like, believe it or not, I'm really good at talking to kids, but talking to your own kid is. It's fucking hard. It's like, you're freaking out. And I'm not, I feel for parents. That's why I keep talking to parents and saying it's okay if you stuff this up because there's no guidebook to this. But I was like, yes, it's true. And she's gone, oh, that's so gross.

I always thought as a parent, the situations that I will be most fearful of, sleepovers and also sporting events. You know, coaches have a level of access to your children that is far greater than what most people do. So I always thought I would be more aware of trying to identify someone who may be a bit suspect. But is there anything that I can do to really arm myself to make sure that those situations are as safe as can be for my children? Yeah. So there was research in 2019 with child sex offenders. They were asked the question, what stopped you from offending or what stopped you

you did all the grooming or you tried to groom a child, what stopped you from actually facilitating the offence? And the answer was the noncompliance of the child, 84% of the time. So the child put up a resistance or the child went and told a parent. So that tells me that, although it's not a child's job to keep themselves safe, it's not, it's not their job, it's our job as parents and adults. But that tells me that a child who is confident, empowered, who knows their body safety rights, who knows when it's not okay and appropriate for something like someone acting inappropriately and they say something, then that's going to put them off and they're going to move on to the next child. And I know that from speaking to children.

The other thing was 16% was a protective parent. So us as parents stepping in and saying, this is appropriate or inappropriate. Or for instance, when my daughter was doing sport, I would be like, okay, this is appropriate behavior. They're not allowed to, and your child isn't at, that age yet, but I don't think it's appropriate for coaches to be on Snapchat or, you know, messenger with kids, right? It should be direct contact with parents. And the people we look out for are the ones who are always offering to bring everyone home, trying to get alone with kids, right? Maybe pushing boundaries. And the thing about grooming is that they don't just groom children, they groom adults as well. And predators or people who want to harm kids, they look for kids who have,

you know, maybe they don't have both parents that live in the same home anymore. or maybe they've got illness in the family and their parents are struggling. So they're looking for targets that are a bit more vulnerable than the average child. So the more protective we act, the more that we are around for our kids during sports. And one of the things I did as a coach, and this kind of is the gold standard in my mind. I taught my daughter's netball team for about five years. And I used to have all of the parents on Messenger and every bit of, you know, this is when training is, this is when our game is, this is all of stuff was to parents.

And then they got to a certain age and everyone was like, can you just talk to the kids? And I said, no, you can add your kids into the group chat, but you have to be in there with them. Otherwise, I'm not going to be conversing with them. Fair enough. And that's me putting in a boundary to be a safe adult. That's me saying, you need to pick your kids up or you need to let me know who is picking them up. If you require me to take your child home, if you ask me, and I was happy to do it sometimes, my daughter was always in the car. It was never one-on-one.

I mean, look, I consider myself as safe adult, but 10 to 12 percent of child sex offenders could be female. If I was trying to abuse a child, it's a great opportunity to try and abuse a child, getting them one-on-one, being that person that they mentors kids, that kids look up to. So, yeah, so it's more about the safe adults around them that put in boundaries and keep safe spaces. You know, they're open to criticism. They're open to being, you know, if you've got concerns. One of the things that really annoys me is when parents say to me, oh, you know, I've spoken. to my school and they've just like basically not listened or they've not spoken to me. You know, it takes little to make parents feel safe.

If you, if they're more than willing to listen to your concerns, then you're going to feel like they're a safe person, right? So, and same with early childhood education and stuff like that. So sleepovers is another one. For me, sleepovers is one of the biggest risk factors for childhood sexual abuse. And it doesn't matter if it's a friend or if it's a relative. It can be a really big problem. Not only that is it could be an adult.

or it could be a child because up to 50% of child sexual abuse in Australia is by other children. Wow. And what we call that is harmful sexualised behaviours. So whether it be by an adult in that home or another child in that home, it could be the friend that they're staying with, it could be whatever. A lot of kids don't realise that kids just being kids or the exploratory behaviour is actually harmful. And so it requires us to step in as protective adults. For my children, are there any signs that I can look out for from them that something may or may have happened? Yeah, well, you know your kids best, right? Like, you know them inside out, hopefully. And so if they're behaviour, behaviour is a form of language. Our kids tell us through behaviour. Sometimes they don't even

have the words, but they'll tell us through how they behave. So if they have a complete change in behaviour from being, you know, the happy-go, lucky kid to the really angry, violent child, you know, that's something to be, it might not mean that they've been abused, but something's going on in their world. They could be getting bullied at school or somewhere, right? The next thing is that if they are talking about or doing something that is outside of their experience. So with harmful sexualised behaviours, for instance, if when a child harms another child or a child's been sexually abused, they might show sexualised behaviours that they shouldn't know. You know, young children, it's normal for them to, you know, joke around about farts and bums and

private parts, but it's not normal for them to ask them to put something in private parts or do things. That's not normal behaviour. That's showing signs of they're doing something more than their age and stage development. So, you know, if your child's showing sexualised behaviours above and beyond what they should be normal. And also if they start refusing to go somewhere or they don't want to go with a person, something's happening. It might not mean abuse. It could mean that that person doesn't feel safe anymore or they're not feeling secure in that relationship anymore. But it could mean that something's happened. So those are some of the warning signs that I would watch out for. And if I am picking up on some of those, what's the best way to open that dialogue?

Yeah, so some of the ways that I would say to kids, and here's the thing, right, a lot of us didn't grow up having these conversations with our parents. No, not at all. You know, so a lot of us don't know how to have these conversations because no one ever did it with us. So one of the ways that I really, and kids really respond well when we say, you know what, but no one ever talked to me about this. And, you know, I'm still learning.

And I realize that I haven't actually asked you, you know, does everyone in the house make you feel safe? Does anyone ever make you feel unsafe? So you can start it like that. I always started conversations with taking some responsibility for not having the words or the knowledge. Like, you know, hey, I'm learning this. Like, tell me, is there anything that I need to know right now that's making you feel unsafe? Or is anyone in our, it doesn't matter who it is.

Or I just want you to know that nothing you ever do can ever make me stop loving you. Nothing that ever happens in your day or in your life will ever make me stop loving you. Because the thing that really got me when I was interviewing kids is that most of them took on the responsibility and the accountability of that abuse on themselves, they thought they were to blame. And they were the ones who blamed themselves. I was naughty. I did the wrong thing because that's what abusers do to kids. They put the responsibility on the child and the child takes on that responsibility. As a parent, we just need to go, nothing you can ever do will ever make me stop loving you. And if you ever need to talk to me about anything, I will always be here to listen to you.

My job is to love and protect you. And sometimes we do things that we might think that we're responsible for, but you're the child and I'm the adult. And it's my responsibility. I'd love to get your take on the situation, which happened to me a couple of weeks ago. We were at the RSL having dinner. And as I was at the bar about to order a drink, my daughter came up to me and an older man, who I think he'd had a couple. And he was, it's that balance of he was a bit of a cheery old guy, but he was patting my daughter's head and saying, oh, you're such a pretty girl. And, you know, it'll happen quite quick. where, you know, next thing I had my drink and I was out of there. And afterwards, I was thinking,

do I just walk away from that? You know, he could just be a nice old guy. Yeah. It's a bit creepy, though. Or do I, in that moment, confront and make a scene in front of my daughter to make her know that it wasn't aware? How would you react in that situation? I'm a bit cheeky. I would have rubbed his head and said, oh, aren't you a cute old man? There she is. Because, you know, like, I don't think some people actually even think about what they do. Yeah. It's not appropriate to touch other. people without their consent. And I think there's a generation still around that hasn't really thought about these things and they don't actually consider people's wants, needs or, you know, their bodily

autonomy. I think I know what you're talking about. And look, look, that's just how they were brought up and that's what they think. And, you know, there's a sense of, sometimes there's a sense of entitlement. Not all. Some of the grandparents that I speak to and the older generations, they're like, we just didn't, no one talked about this stuff. You know, I've had 80-year-old women come and disclose their abuse to me.

That, you know, I wrote my book Operation Kids Safe and in there, there's a whole topic of consent, right? And how we just really don't look into it and we don't think about consent. And a grandmother came to me and she goes, you know, I realized that most of my relationships in my life were not consensual. Wow. Yeah, she goes, I never had a choice. And when you put it like that, it's really impactful. Like she goes, I just didn't realize. because I just thought I had to.

Yeah. Well, the work that you're doing is so important. Yeah. I think it's really amazing. And I can't wait to go home with these cards and make my daughters as strong as can be. That makes my heart happy. Yeah, we get to interview a lot of people on here. And I think able to pick your brain on this stuff has been amazing.

I mean, Matt and I are in the prime of young kids. You're at the best point of parenting. Like your children will have the lessons. that will make a difference for them and their future. Because these lessons I taught my daughter from two. And when she was in year 11, she came home one day and she said she had a group of five to six girls in her group and she was the only one who hadn't been sexually abused.

Wow. And I said, how did you get onto this conversation? They were like, oh, they found out what you do. And like, they all were disclosing abuse to me. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah. And I was like, wow. And she goes, I was the only one who hadn't been sexually abused.

As horrific as that is, it must make you so, proud of the work that you had done with your daughter. It does and it makes me, and everything that I teach and everything that I share online is, you know, and I do get criticised from parents who are like, no, it's not that bad and it doesn't happen. I think we don't want to look at the world that way. No. And I don't look at the world that way. I know that there's a lot of good people out there and a lot of good parents and a lot of good kids and stuff like that, but we don't know what we don't know. And if we don't know, then we're just opening the door to more happening that we didn't bargain for. So it's better to know and to put things in place like have those conversations.

If there was one thing that I could say is that just have a conversation with your kids about body safety. Because in all of my career, the kids who had this information spoke up quicker, got to safety quicker, got healing quicker. The ones who didn't have that and they, and, you know, it went on to affect their whole lives. So for me, it's just a no-brainer. It's amazing work. Christy, all the combat wombat. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining us.

Ash, there are so much important information in this episode. Matt, I wasn't sure what to expect through that episode, but the amount of information and the little titpits that I've learned along the way made that such an incredible episode. You know, so many important take-homes. So I hope you as a listener benefited from it. If you have enjoyed this episode, please, we would love it. As always, if you would leave a review.

Either an upper podcast, hey, even Spotify, if you like. You can't leave reviews for the whole series. You have to do specific comments for the episode on Spotify. just so you know. Every episode. Or you can join us on social. YouTube where you can leave more comments. Instagram, TikTok and our Facebook group.

Two Doting Dads or send us an email if you want. Hello at Two Dating Dads.com. Thanks guys. Bye. Two Doting Dance podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gatigal Land.