Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #218 Gen Muir "The Oracle" is back!

Episode Date: April 19, 2026

We only made it through one term of school before we had to drag Gen Muir back for some more advice on how to parent our kids. This time she teaches us how to set boundaries with an empathy sandwich, why our kids lying to us is actually a good thing and why modern parenting is doing our heads in. It's another gold standard episode with our favourite parent educator and we know you'll leave feeling smarter and more capable to parent your kids than before you listened.  To get in touch with Gen, buy her cards or just follow her teachings head to her instagram here. If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You got a new car. The Oracle is back. She's back, baby. You asked and we delivered. And if you're wondering who is the Oracle, her name happens to be the one, the only. Jen Muir. In a time where your relationship with your kids really matters.

One woman, the Oracle, Jen Muir. You're really channeling the ash that used to smash a pack of Winnie Blues a day. We're reds. I'm not a pussy. That's it. Jenny's back, the Oracle. We were due for some wisdom. Let's be honest. Yes. We were running low on the amount of wisdom in our lives,

and here she is, to boost it back up, and we're talking about how we can avoid the midterm slump and how to actually set and hold boundaries. How do I discipline my children? She also helps us understand different stages of dysregulation. That's a big word for me. So we can jump in before it reaches. DefConForg.

It's another brilliant chat with our favourite parenting expert. We wish we could have her on 24-7, but we can't. So make sure you savour every second of this chat. Enjoy. Yes, enjoy very much, Lee. Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mum. I am Maddie J. I'm Ash.

And I'm Jen Muir. I can even tell you the instructions. I'm so sorry. I just thought you're like, yeah. I just jumped in. I love that. Is that okay? Oh, yeah.

Bring you in, quick. I just thought, well, we're all introducing ourselves. Yes. That was, normally when I give those instructions, guests are like, okay, what do I do? What do I do with my hands? That was seamless. Yeah, very good. You've done this before.

Yeah. Welcome back, though. Thank you for having me back. Nice to have you back. We've been thinking about you a lot. That's good. Before I continue, this is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good, it is a bad.

And the relatable. And we don't give advice, but Jen does. Yes. Well, yeah. You're the one person who's allowed to. Yeah, I like that. Do you know what? And not that I want to attack our listeners here.

Okay. You're attack away. Because we love them. Yeah. We love them. If you're listening right now, I love you. But we said, do you want more experts on the podcast or do you just want some funny stories? And they're like, we just want the funny stories.

And I was like, loud and clear, we did an episode with yourself. And they all were like, give us more. They're like, you two, get lost. It was like someone saying, I don't like chili food. And they get like a chili conkani. And they're like, what? What was that? Yeah.

What if I were missing out on my whole life? It would be a bucket of that right now. It was. It was just like, is she back here next week? No, yeah, but soon. I love that. That's nice to hear. It is good to have you back.

It is, yes, thank you. I want to talk about school. Okay, I have one that goes to big school, as we call it, and the other one that goes to preschool. And they're both sort of at a stage where they're enjoying coming home from school, but then the thought of going back to school the next day is like. is like, I don't want to go, I don't like it, and it's sort of getting to the point where I've ran out of excuses of why they've got to go. Is there anything that I can do to try and help us and them get over the midterm slump?

Yeah, or any slump with school. The first thing we want to do is accept that going to school or preschool or daycare involves a really significant process for our kids. And it's not about school. it's about saying goodbye to us. So for our kids, believe it or not, you are the sun, the moon, the stars in their universe for approximately 14 and a half years. And in that time, the process of saying by to you, their safe base, their world at the gate is super hard.

But that doesn't mean they don't love school. That doesn't mean they don't love preschool. So often what we're confusing with some of these transitions with our kids is what it's actually about. So when kids say, I don't want to go to bed, it's not that they don't love sleeping. is saying goodbye to us for however many hours you get without them, three, seven. Yeah. Very.

It's really, really hard for kids. And that process of kind of being that person, doing that transition into the outside world is super hard. Having said that, once we can accept, they're not meant to find that goodbye super easy that while they're young, saying goodbye to us will be hard for some kids particularly and in some stages. Once we accept that, there is so much you can actually do to have. help your kids with transition to school.

I'm just thinking about Marley right now. You said 14 and a half years. Right now, I'm like, Marley, do you want to walk you in? She's like, fuck off. See you. I know. Hi. I'm holding my hands.

She's already a tween and she's like five or six. She's seven. Yeah. Like, come back to me please. So she's in year one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So here is what I would do. I would, first of all, for all houses with kids in primary school, having a visual whiteboard that shows the days of the week and what happens is super super useful. And one of the reasons for this is that the day before school, you might at 4pm at 6pm while you're having dinner, you go, tomorrow's a Tuesday. And so dad takes you in the red car and you got PE. Now, what we're doing is just sort of talking about what's happening.

But it gives our kids brains a chance to kind of feel the feelings of that separation outside of the moment. It is incredibly powerful from a neuroscience perspective because it gives them that chance to even feel that feeling of they may say, I don't want to go. And you get to say, I know, it's really tough to go to school. I get it. Some days I don't want to go to work either. I know what that's like.

So we're offering empathy. We're allowing them to practice feeling the feeling. Then in the actual moment, here are my tips. Because in the moment, we're actually out of that zone. So we've done our prep. In the moment, it is all about get really, really close to your kids. You want to touch them on the shoulder. You want to acknowledge what they're doing.

So for my kids, I've got a nine-year-old and an 11-year-old. If I walk in their room and just say, hey guys, we're late to school. Everybody grab your bags. We've got to go. Nothing gets done. Either everyone has a hearing deficit suddenly or suddenly people are going, no. I don't want to go. I can't.

My foot hurts. Whatever it is, right? If I come in, I rub their shoulders. This is the magic bit. You rub their shoulders. And then you go, wow, oh my gosh, look at this incredible Lego build, which is actually just a disastrous mess that's all over their floor. But look at this amazing Lego.

And then you kind of pause and go, okay, it's time to get to school. We've got to get going now. Shoes on. And nine times out of 10, just by touching and connecting first, kids will move, especially if you whisper. So that's what we're doing in the moment. However, if someone has very young kids, sometimes they're still going to go, I don't want to go.

Like, I don't want to go. And then I would take charge. I would say, I get it. You don't want to go. I'm going to help you to the car. I'm going to put you in. I'm going to strap you in. The one thing you don't want to do is try to make.

it better. Like I think as parents we're trying to go, but you love it at school. But your best friend, Connor, is at school. That's the first thing out of my mouth. But you'll love it, Macy. But you'll miss out on Craftery. The one thing you don't want to be doing is what you're doing right now. I know, I'm like, you'll love it. We'll all love it because you won't be here either. What about Harmony Day? Every day can't be Harmony Day. We'd go to a school that has an orange uniform. When we do that, our kids are like, you're not hearing me, you're not hearing me. You're not hearing me. One of the most powerful things I think I've ever done with my four kids. So my youngest is sent to earth to test everything

I talked to parents about, right? He is a strong-willed individual. And what I used to do, he used to not want to go to preschool, not want to go to preschool. And despite me doing all this stuff, he's still thrashing and screaming in the van on the way there. So this is the reality. And every time I got to the KU car park, I'd open the van door. I'd get eye to eye with my kid. And that's the moment to really nail this. And I would just stop. And I'd open my palms because opening your palms, kids can take in more of what you say with the palms open, then kind of what you say in your words when they're like three or four and they're crying. And I would just say, you really don't want to go to school today. I get it. And then you just pause. And then there's a silence. And then we'd

have a big hug. And then he would go in. And I'm not saying he skipped in. But he was not hanging off the, you know, the dry cleaning rack in the car being pried off like an octopus. He would kind of go in like, yes, it's so much easier because our kids, just like us, when we can let them know, hey, I hear you, I get that this is hard, we still set the boundary. Whereas if we're saying, but you love it, it's going to be great, it's going to be fine, they're like, you're not hearing me. And so we get stuck. Yeah, I watched two parents and their daughter the other day going to walk down the school

track, which were close to the end of term. She was obviously in Kindi. It was first year, but still, it just broke my heart because that kid was still, and you could see both parents were both trying to. comfort her and validate her, but also as well, the Republic as well. And I was like, I just, fuck, I felt for a man. It's the worst, isn't it? Except when it's not your kid and you just.

You're like, so you. With Lola, I'm like, oh, the calendar would be good. But at the same time, sometimes ignorance is bliss. But at the moment, she's always like, what day is it? And I go, there's a song, it's Monday and there's Tuesday. There's Wednesday and this Thursday. There's Friday and there's Saturday. And then there's Sunday days of the week.

I do. I'm familiar. And it's like Friday. We have to sing the whole song to get to Friday. Oh, I love that. But then she has these realisations on Sunday where, like, she'll sometimes sit on a Saturday and go, hang on a second, about a couple of free days is some...

I'm having too much fun. Yeah. Sunday nights when she realizes that she has to go to school and then she also has to have after school care on that Monday as well, the double whammy. Big day. Oh my God. She has such big emotions.

So sometimes just the more we can prep their brains. So we want to show them on a calendar. or show them a picture depending on how well they are. This is what's coming. I get that it might be hard. And then this is the really cool thing we can add to that conversation. I wonder what we can do tomorrow on Monday to help with the drop off to school because I know it can be really tough. I tried that.

And she's like, not go. Yeah, yeah. I wonder what it'll be like if I stay home leaving you. She's like, just give me an iPad. Yeah, totally. That'll fix it. So when my youngest was in Kindi, he had a lot of trouble adjusting. Same kid. It's always the same kid. All my stories are the same kid. And he would literally be clinging

onto the gates at handoff so hard. And, you know, on top of this, I'm like a parent educator. So I feel like not only a parent staring, but they're going, ha-ha. It's not really working so well for her, is it? It's like double judgment. Being like a PT and struggling at the gym. Yeah. I'm like, aren't they like a formal world champion? Yeah, like, I know about things. I don't actually do them. I'm like, no, I'm modeling for you. This is how it's meant to be. Sure. He's screaming at the gates.

And so I sat him down one day and I was at my wits end and I just said, I get it. It's really hard to go to school. Really hard. I wonder what we can do to make it a bit easier. And he actually said, if I could carry my sonic toy to the gate and hand it to you and then you could take it and put it in my bed. And I'm like, mate. Like done. So we did that for two weeks and I would walk away with this giant sonic toy in my hand to go get my coffee.

And after two weeks, he didn't need it anymore. So if you can come up with something that speaks to her, sometimes a object that she really loves, something magical that could sit in her bag and she could check on it. Kids love that, like something that just gives you that little bit of a boost while you're away. Maybe the iPad. Yes, yeah, take that to school.

Just kidding, that's not what I would do. I was like, oh, that's good. That's actually not a bad vibe. Yeah, we put Macy when she's feeling like it might be a case that, like, similar she wants to take it. her Pokemon toy or whatever, but she wants to make sure it sits in her car seat for the day. Yes.

But it's not me, it picks her up, so then she's sad when she gets picked up and it's not me. I'm like, well, what am I going to do? It's also when you come back and pick her up and it's died in the car because it's so hot, summer's day. Don't leave your toys in the car. Tell me if this is right or wrong. Okay.

And I'm going to throw my mum under the bus. Oh, your beautiful mum. Who lives with us? I know. I met your mum. So the way that we were getting ready in the, mornings is that obviously I was doing a lot of the begging and the pleading. And then I didn't really have set guidelines. I kind of had this rule that if you guys are really well behaved,

then I will allow you to go via the cafe. It's a mini little chocolate roogula, which is chocolate croissant. The girls love it. What's it called? Chocolate roogula. You guys are very fancy. Yeah. I know. Don't you worry. I know. Jesus, that's like, very fancy. It's like there's two ashes in the room right now. Yeah. Must be nice. having a wriggle in the morning. Kids we're going to have a croissant. Yeah, yeah. Daddy, can we get, I don't want to those baby teenagers.

A one of those big, yeah, cafe latte. And an ugli, ugly, chocolate ugula. Sparkling water in my nutritional grade, please. Is that so bad, you're going to get it away from it? So we stopped by the fish markets. We can pick up some caviar and lobster. Oh, the lobsters were fresh. I was still moving.

All right. All right, guys, okay. So you bribe your kid with a croissant. Yeah, keep going to say wrigula. Damn it. Yeah. You don't help yourself. You don't.

I just said, aren't we all getting Rougalers in the morning? I've never heard of it. I've never heard of it. Are we not? No. Hey, we're still having toast over here, bro. What's that? I hope it's sal-dough.

I'm not trying to hurt my children. Just get a bit of pat-a-a-bri-a. Sorry, Matt. Keep going. Keep going. Don't give up. So then it was always hard when there wasn't like a set thing that they had done wrong. It was more kind of, based on my vibe, I was like,

you know what, fuck it, no cafe today. And the kids would be like, what do you mean? Like they were not doing the right theme. It was just a nightmare because then we're also halfway through the morning routine. It all derailed because they're like, well, there's no point trying to get ready because we're not going to get the Ruggler. So then my mom was like, let's do a rewards chart. Yeah. Okay.

You get two Rugglers. So on the rewards chart, it's very simple. We have one for each day of the week. and we have to just say to them what is next on the list. And we're given an instruction of how it works, but there's get breakfast, get dressed, brush your teeth, put your shoes on, get your bag ready. So they've got to do all those things for a Ruggler?

For a star. And if they get the star, they then get the Ruggler. Okay. The guy who invented Roodle was like, oh my God, they're talking about me. Oh my goodness. It's been 150 long years. I have. But finally someone's mentioned them.

I wish I had some Rugglers here. Honestly, I'm hungry. I wish we had some Ruggles here. Let's wrap it up, let's go. So I just remember, I could be wrong here. I remember someone saying those charts for the things that should be doing anyway shouldn't be rewarded. They never got Ruggler as kids.

Right? So is this chart, is it the right thing? Is it the wrong thing? Should I lose the chart? Should I kick Nana out of the house? I want to ask you, we're not kicking Nana out. Do I get a vote on that? Okay, unless she wants to come and live with me

And then we can kick her out Okay, so first of all, is it working? Does it work? Does it feel, tell me the truth. Yeah. The pause. Is it working? Do you know what?

My mum said from her experience, she goes, These charts only work for three weeks. Yeah, there you go, boom. It's done a new chart. And she said, no. Yeah, she goes, oh, she's just spoken gospel. So at the moment, the girl, are running out of bed and they're running to breakfast because they're so excited to tick off each of

their tasks and then get their Ruggler. And my mom is very much managing my expectation. Sorry, I've said Roodle are 12 times now. She said, just know that the shine will wear off. Yes, I love your mom. So look, the thing about modern parenting, right, we're told like, don't bribe your kids. They'll get stuck on in extrinsic motivation and they'll never be able to get a job. Don't rush your kids because they'll get anxious, like all of that stuff, right? We get so caught up and we can't even remember what's okay or not anymore. And here's the bottom line, it's all okay. Like it's, you know, short of, you know, hurting your children, this is okay.

Is it effective? Very short term. So your mum is right. You've got three weeks, if that, I reckon. The reality is in terms of all of the things you've ever heard of to get kids to do stuff. So what are our options? We've got the stick. We can threaten.

We can punish. We can have consequences. We can send kids to their room. We can, like all of that stuff. We've got the carrot. We can have star charts, rewards. We can be, we can bride, we can play. Now, old school parenting, most of us got raised with more of the stick.

Modern parents, we're using a lot of those reward charts, right? Who doesn't have a reward chart on the fridge with a fresh little star and roguilla brides to get them through the day? We don't. You don't? Well, you know, good for you. We're outside the three weeks. Yeah. So here's the thing.

I find if you've got a big goal, like you've been. got a child that's really struggling with something. And for example, at certain points when my son was struggling to go to school, one of the other things I added on top of Sonic was, we can get a chalky croissant in the bakery if you go now. Because sometimes we've got to get to work and we just got to get this stuff to happen. And we got multiple kids and multiple demands and modern parenting is hard. So if that croissant gets your kids to go, it's a win. We just also need an option of what to do when they're not doing the steps and they're not going well and they're not. And they're going to earn that star because we find ourselves then threatening. If you guys don't X, Y, Z,

then I'm going to whatever. And suddenly we're raising cortisol on our kids and nothing's going well because those things won't go well because kids go well when they can. So those little visual reminders and the stars and the stickers, they can help them as long as they're regulated and going well. If your kid is dysregulated, having a hard morning, not very well, hungry, hangary, whatever and just melting down, then it doesn't matter what Star Chart you have and it doesn't matter what you threaten. None of that's going to help and they need us to do something different. And that's when we're really stepping in and we're using our relationship and we're saying something like, I get it. It's really hard to go today. My hand is on your back. Am I going to carry you to

the car or do you want to walk? And I get that. It's really hard. So we're setting that boundary within an empathy sandwich I call it. So we name the wish of the want. We set the limit and we let our kid know it's okay to find it hard. But we just say those three again. There's. It's an empathy sandwich, right? Our boundaries. If the bribe sticker chart has not worked, we have to step in and do something different. If our kid is dysregulated, we have to do something different. If my child is standing on the table looking at me in the eye going, what are you going to do about it?

No sticker chart, no threat is going to change that situation. Yeah. So I need to come up and I go, I get that you kind of really want to climb. That's naming the wish of the want. The boundary is, I need you to get off my table now and I'm clear and firm. And we follow that with empathy. I get that it can be hard to be a kid. I get that you want to climb.

We can climb outside, we're not climbing on the table. So when kids are dysregulated or when they're struggling, to put it simply, we have to really help them because kids can't go better if they can't go better. No bribe, no threat is going to change that. So rewards and threats and consequences are tricky because we are in a society that is marinated in this stuff. Behavioralism is how we were raised. It's how we're running our schools, like what school doesn't have a thinking corner. My son spends a lot of time there. I spend a lot of time.

Which is a reframed time out zone. But anyway, you know, these things will work some of the time. Yeah. So just say we've got a kid that I want to leave the park and we say, if we go now, I reckon we can have a bit of iPad time. Now, if your kid says yes, it's a win. That's fine. You're allowed to do that.

Like, people go, is that right or wrong? It's fine. It gets you through the day. But if your kid is lying on the ground of that park kicking and screaming, no offer of the iPad is going to change. that, they need your help to leave the park. If they are kicking and screaming and you're offering that, it's kind of like rewarding them for that behaviour.

They're not going to hear it. If a kid is out of their mind having a meltdown, it actually doesn't matter what you say. They actually just need our help. And usually that means picking them up and walking out of the park. Wow. Which kind of leads me to the next topic of discipline. Yeah.

And love, love Ellie. We had a few wooden spoons broken on our backside growing up. Which we do or not, that is out of the question now. We don't do that anymore. No. For me, at the moment, Oscar and Marley's the same age, so it's probably going to be applicable to Matt as well. your face a little bit or and it's usually with mum. Does it feel like defiance? Is that what you're sort of describing? It's a little bit but it's also real cheeky. Yeah. And like I said, he's such a sweet

boy but he has moments where he's just really, really nasty for no reason. Like he might say something where it's like, like for example, him and Macy yesterday were racing Hot Wheels cars and he was like, yours is a loser. But you know, like the way he said it to her, broke a heart. And I was like, okay, bro, I get what you're trying to say. There's a winner and a loser. And he was like, okay, bro, I get what you're trying to say there's a winner and a loser in this situation because you were racing. But I'm at the point where I don't know what to do anymore because I'm like, I keep talking to you and having these conversations about, hey, just be mindful of the way you talk to people.

If I was done that back in the day, Wood and Spoon, where is it? Oh, it'd be like, for example, I was going to read something to the other day and I paused because I was talking at the same time and he's like, do you know how to read? And I was like, fuck you, first of all. And I was like, at that point I was like, that was really rude, go to your room, but I was like, I need to have more of a conversation about it. but I'm sort of at my wits end with it. Such a great question statement there.

When kids say unkind things or harsh words, like I guess we're sort of loosely talking about like the impact of these words in those two scenarios. That's not nice for his sister. That's not nice for you. It feels unkind. It feels a bit mean, something like that. Really common thing for parents to sort of deal with. Now, I want to sort of step us right out here.

The human brain doesn't learn to regularly. and process emotions and go well in social situations, it's fully formed at 25 to 28. So your kid at seven is such a work in progress. Yeah. Right? And so here's how we learn to show feelings in the moment. Because I want to unpack what might be going on behind or underneath that comment of you're a loser, your car's a loser, right?

So the way that kids will show emotions at first at two or three, they just throw the car, they hit, they melt down. They very much physically show how they feel about things. That's all they've got capacity to do because the ability to bring an emotion from the back of the brain to the front and articulate it. Well, it's a long way off, right? By six or seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, three, twenty, five, fifteen, just saying it goes on.

Suddenly kids have this capacity to find words in the moment. But the way that it comes out at first, as they're learning to express really complex big feelings. Like if you're 25 years away or, I can't do my mouth, but you know what I'm saying, 17 years away from full development, that is such a big ass. So there's so many emotions going on in any given day. And then the way that feelings come out is like, your car's a loser. Or I hate you, mum, or you're the worst out ever. Or, I mean, kids say the craziest things. I work in a maternity unit, five year old the other day, got a brand new sibling. Everyone's saying, look at your new baby. And he just goes, I'm going to put the baby in the fridge. And everyone went,

Oh my gosh, this child's a psycho, but he's not. Was it summer at least? So our job as parents in these moments is to step back a little bit from the behaviour and it's two-fold hard this step back. But if we can step back far enough to go, oh, I know what's going on for him in that moment. Now, that's a really hard thing to do for so many reasons, but the biggest one is it was not modelled for us. Nobody did that for you.

You were sent to your room. You were hit with a wooden spoon. My mum wants got a perspex wooden spoon. And we all went, oh God, she's bought something that's more aerodynamic. So I know what you're talking about yet. But if this wasn't model for you, I shouldn't laugh. You got. Should love your trust.

No, I'm okay. Reminded me because I hid the wooden spoon and mum came out with the hard plastics. I regret that. Yeah, exactly. So we were all raised so that when we did those things, we were punished. So now when our kids, what your kid is expressing is an uncomfortable emotion. It's not about the cars. So what's actually happening?

I don't know. It's hard to lose. He wants to kind of show that he's doing okay. There is so much he's competing. Like him and his sister are like birds in a nest competing for you. And the way that they compete is often by fighting. So what they do is they say these clunky kind of things. Our job is to go, I would repeat it back.

You're saying that your sister's car is going to lose. I'm looking at her face. I don't reckon I made her feel good. I wonder if we should check on her. What you've just taught your kid in that moment on the spot is how to read a social cue and especially for boys they need this. So low level social cue reading. So nonverbal communication they're not as good at.

Look at her face. That didn't go well. Look at my face. I don't like it. I wonder what you could do next time you're feeling frustrated that the game's not going as you wish. Another option is like, hey, mate, hand on the shoulder. I'm hearing those words.

Is that how you wanted that to come out? Is that what you meant to say? I wonder what you're meaning here. I wonder what's going on. using curiosity to get underneath. So our job is to regulate ourselves. But the challenge is in that moment, you're not just seeing the kid in front of you.

You're also kind of, there's the way that you were punished for that same display of behavior. Yeah, I was like, I remember the car one. I was like, bro, don't, you know, that wasn't very nice. And then he sort of came back to me with like, but we were racing.

So then I was like, okay, well, there's nice a ways to say that your car didn't come for, game second. There's only two of you. At that moment, I was like, all right, so maybe he's actually just pointing at the fact. This is the way it came out was wrong because, like, you can't read the, but it's true. I do expect way more when I probably shouldn't as much. And I think that if you check in with that, like, hey, I'm looking at your sister's face.

I don't know how that landed. What did you mean to say? And he's like, just that my car came first and hers and second. That's what he meant. Yeah. And then you can go, oh, I get it. I wonder how that would feel if someone said it to you. So you've got that opportunity.

Do you have to do that all the time? No, you don't. Like, absolutely not. But when I started doing that with my kids, and like another example is, as a parent, you hear two kids and they're like, you can hear that within three seconds, someone's going to be crying, you know, that feeling.

And, you know, just that ability to kind of coach them, like, I'm hearing two kids and one of you's having a ball. The other one, I'm hearing the word stop. I reckon we should see if that person's okay. So it's kind of just teaching kids to tune into those cues, but particularly kind of more broadly, when kids say unkind things, like do you even know how to read, you know, I would, if we can pause our own reactivity to go, oh, okay, what did you sort of mean by that? Is that something that someone

said to you at school? Like, I'm curious. Like, is that something that's going on for him? Is it something that he's overheard? Was he just pointing out? You know, like, again, is he quite a literal guy? Yeah. It's like, it's funny because like that led into when I went to talk to him, he was like, I said, you just said this to me. And then he lied straight to my face that he didn't do it. Lying's a great one. Yeah, let's do lying. Let's do lot. Why do they, I was like, you just said it to me.

I know you said it. Yeah. So, first of all, when your child officially learns to just lie to you, like, so you say, hey, did you brush your teeth? And they go, yes. And you smell their breath. And you're like, no, you didn't. And they're like, yeah, I did.

And they just like, right, so whatever it is, kids will lie. Or I didn't do that or I didn't, you know, whatever it is. Here's the thing. Learning to lie, it's a developmental milestone. So A, we want to go, yes. tick. That one's there. Oh, right. If your kid never learns to lie, how are they going to get through life?

Like, you need to know how to lie. Then we need to learn what a white lie is and what's a kind lie and what's it. You know, like we need to learn more about lying and the impact it can have for sure. But just knowing that, first of all, kids learning to hide the truth, really important skill. Kids will start to do that from about four or five and they will continue doing it for a while. Oh, right. So then we need to kind of look at, well, why would a kid lie? Because for our kids, and I say it a lot, but for 14 and a half years, we're the center

of their universe, they think we are the most important person. Why would they lie? Because they don't want to disappoint us. The reality is not that they're trying to be sneaky or tricky or that they're not good people. It's that they love you so much and they know what's wrong. So we've got a couple of things going really well. our kid knows right from wrong and they're trying to protect our relationship with them.

So what we can do is try to lower the pressure so that our kids are more likely to tell the truth. And one of the greatest lines you can say is, if you happened to do this thing and not tell me the truth, I would understand that. I would totally get why you might say that. Like right now, if your son says, I didn't say that, you go, yeah. If you were now trying to say that you'd didn't say that because you felt bad about it, I would get it. That makes sense. Yeah, it's been a couple of instances, but like now you put it that way in terms of the lying. It's like, okay, then maybe the pressure was on. He felt the pressure and like he probably would never felt that pressure before. We all do it. You did have him pin against the wall. Well, that was one time.

Okay. We all do it. So I have a dozy because might relieve people. My youngest, he took some money from my purse. He's nine. And he's nine. And he's, And he went to the chemist and he bought a packet of nerds. Matthew Johnson. I just, I did that. And he bought a packet of nerds. Great taste. And he came home.

At least he didn't steal the nerds, right. So, you know. Not this time. So anyway, he comes in the back door and like, you know, I just saw he was just trying. He was just trying to go to his room to hide the backpack. And I just said, what's in the back bag? Could you hear him come? Yeah.

It's like when you walk in the clips mince. And so I come in and I'm like, I want to send your backpack. He's like, mom. It just doesn't matter, mate. Like, he's just trying to put it under the bed. And, like, you know, it's this horrible situation. They're so dumb, aren't there. And the worst bit is, the worst bit is, I know as a parent-educator,

the best thing is just walk away and just chill and then wait till his karma and then come back and say, hey, I think there's something in that backpack. And I want you to know, there's nothing that you can have done that would ever make me love you less. We'll work it out together. What if there was a severed head in there? Whoa. That is a way.

What are looking at a jam? I honestly we are well said Matthew that's why I didn't feel weird saying it but anyway I just want to admit freely on Mike to all your audience that I was like come on show me what's in the backpack he's like no I'm like show me what's in the backpack he's like anyway then I'm like how did you get the money he's like I don't know so where it is I'm like did you take it from my wallet anyway I then I took myself here's what I did I caught myself on the climb I knew this was going nowhere good and I just removed myself and I had a little, I said, do you know what, I'm going to take a little break. I'm going to give you some time to think about it.

I want you to know that there's nothing you could tell me that would make me love you less and we're going to work this out together. And I left and then I came back and I said, look, where are that? What is it. If it feels easier, you can write down on a piece of paper, what happened? And he wrote down, I took the money from your wallet. It wasn't all the yelling at him? No, it wasn't it.

Because here's the thing. Kids will lie to protect us. And it does, to be honest, guys, at this stage with the nerds or with the whatever, that doesn't really matter. But when they're 16, I need them to know, hey, there's nothing you could tell me that we couldn't work out. Because I've got four boys and the reality is at one point, one of them is going to send a nude. Excuse me? No.

Send a what? A nude. Really? Are you joking? Go on. I thought you guys were like young, hip, millennial. Don't tell you. It's about all the things.

Look, many, many kids these days, they're going to send nudes. They're in a world of tech that's so different to the world I grew up in. It's really common that boys will get tricked into sending a nude. And one of the biggest things, I'm shocked that you're finding this shocking, actually. I'm not finding it shogging, right? I just wasn't. Nudes that Ash sends out. I just wasn't expecting it.

I haven't processed it yet. I'm just giving a specific example to the kind of trouble our kids. Go on. And they could send a nude and then suddenly they're being extorted because they thought they were texting with some girl and actually it's a scam. And that person's saying, I'm now going to send that nude to everyone on your soccer team. Now, there are some really dire consequences that have happened to multiple, multiple kids. And it's really sad stories.

So one of the things I'm trying to do is build a relationship in these early years where my kids know, hey, there is nothing you could have done. There is nothing that you could tell me that would make me love you less. There's nothing I won't be on your team for. And even if you've made a mistake, we'll work it out because they're going to make so many mistakes. And so to me, you know, the things now or the stolen money, like, no, great. We've got to talk about honesty.

And there was a, you know, there was a consequence. He had to earn the money back and, you know, we worked it out. But I want money back. Got it. But I want you. I just want to be prepared. I want him to know that that was a safe thing to do. Because I just think otherwise he doesn't come to me.

And that's the problem. That would hurt my feelings way more if he was too afraid to come to me with it. And it's like you said the start of that story and you were, you could feel it was going nowhere good. I know. I think the trick is to get out of there for me. Because I'm like, I'm already there and I want to say my piece. I want to hear his piece.

But at the same time, we're just getting more hind and high. Yeah. So the biggest thing in parenting we can possibly do is take a pause. You know, there's a really famous quote between stimulus and response. Once there is a pause and in that pause sort of lies our salvation, but the pause is everything. I have a scenario. Yeah, let's do it. That is on the topic of being defiant and punishment.

And I'd love to know that if you were in my shoes, how you would have handled this situation. So I know that one of my children. Are they big shoes? What they say about big shoes, Matt? US 11 and a half. Oh, big son. 11 and a half. It's 11.

I put the half on just. Yeah. Aren't you 6.1.5 too? Six one and a half. Not a big foot. My 14-year-old has a size 13. Oh, sugar. Let's all swing our dicks around.

I'm far out. I'm a nine, okay? I don't know. I can tell with my kids that once they start getting a little bit cheeky, you know, a little bit silly, I know that they're on a path. Yeah, they are. It's a downward path. It's an upward path.

It's hard, and it's hard to turn them around. Yeah. You know, normally it only stops when one of them gets hurt, one of them starts crying. I'm like, stop it now. And they start crying off the back of that. It takes something to kind of like, you know, really shock them. And an example of this was the girls were in the bath. Like water was going everywhere.

And I was like trying to like, you know, get them wash, brush their teeth and be like, and guys, we've got to stop splashing water everywhere. I don't want to get wet. I really don't like it. And then as I said that, then I was targeted. Yeah. So then one of my children started splashing me and I said, I really don't want to get wet.

Okay, let's brush our teeth. I was handing them the toothbrush. Using some of the tools that you've given me before, I was saying, thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for brushing your teeth. She's like, I'm not brushing my teeth, you're fucking idiot. Yeah. And I was saying, please stop splashing me.

And then she paused for a second. and then she like knelt down, she got some water in her mouth. And as I was, and she spat it in your face. And she spaded in my face. I could predict this one coming, yeah. Were you there? I wasn't there, but I can feel it. I've lived it. I've lived it.

I'm kind of going back to what you said before, in my head, I'm like, I would have fucking got smacked for this. Like, there needs to be some level of punishment for my daughter to understand that how she's behaved is absolutely not on. But, I mean, the only thing I did was I just said, fuck brushing the teeth. I got her out of the bath, a wrapped her up, whist her into her room, get her ready for bed. She was crying because she didn't want to go out of the bath. She hates

any transition she doesn't like unless it's, you know, slow. What should I have done? I want to make sure that she knows that she's not allowed to do that. First of all, you did amazing, right? Like, we're all in the thick of it and that sounds amazing. You're trying all that stuff. I think that she was too high on a climb into dysregulation by the time you were trying some of the suggestions. Can I quickly explain how that looks? So kids climb into dysregulation in almost like going up a ladder in lots of 10. And this is how it looks and sounds. So level one, two, three, kids are winy.

They're whiny. They're not listening. Steps four, five and six, they get silly. They really get more defiant. And they do things that are not. Like spitting water in your face, look, I know it didn't feel great. But it's not the worst thing in the world. It's a bit silly.

It's a bit wrong. But she's a little kid. It's not the end of the world, right? Yeah. Once we get up above a six, kids get really dysregulated, and that's when we're in DefCon, four, and they're kicking, they're screaming, they're melting down, and we're all losing it. Yeah.

The problem with where you were at, you were at a four, five, six, when you tried to do your strategies that work only on a one, two, three. Yeah. So when we first start noticing that they're kind of getting a bit silly or they're not quite listening, which is really common on a path to bedtime. So dysregulation is going to move up because it's really hard to go to bed. we're catching them lower, we're connecting, we're going, hey, you did this, I'll do that. So at a level five where she's at, really kids need a boundary.

So kids at level five, they're going to look defiant, they're going to be looking at you in the eyes. That's the kid where you say, no, we're not having a snack before dinner and they just put the hand in the pantry, they're looking at you in the eye going, well, I know where the snacks are, so I'm just having one. At that point, none of that low level stuff naming emotions is going to help and we have to step in and stop them or step in and say, I'm going to get you out of the bath. If you do that again, I'm going to get you out.

And the truth is kids don't want to, they don't want to annoy you. And sometimes they're just misreading the situation. They're just like, I thought we were having a really good game here. And I thought we were having so much fun. And we think we're being very clear. But for kids, it has to be really clear. Like, listen, splash again, guys, and immediately we're getting out. Do you understand?

Has everybody heard me? Because in my head, I was like, the fucking disrespect. Oh, yeah. You know, she disobeyed an immediate order. Yeah. Yeah. No arugula for you. Yeah.

So, and then often what kids actually want, because you know how you said it only stops when they get hurt? Yeah. I lose it. What kids are often needing about that point, it is the boundary. It's actually you to say, hey, that's not working for me. So if you do that again, we're going to have to get out. And often they will melt down as you.

get them out. They'll be upset because they didn't want the bath to end there. But I reckon that meltdown is actually part of the process that they're having in terms of getting ready for bed. And the sooner we bring that on, the quicker we do settle. And then the stories go better and everything goes better. So that's the trick. Get them to melt down to go to sleep. Get them all the way up. Just catch them when they're on the climb. They might hit that point in the climb earlier. It might be in the kitchen when they try to have an ice cream even though you've said no and their hands on the freezer or they're hitting their sibling. And I'm like, that must stop. I've got you. They're going to melt down there and then the path to bedtime will go easier.

If the boundary has been broken, right? So I've got them out of the bath. They're still misbehaving. Can I threaten them and announce that I'll take away reading a book before they go to bed? Okay. So consequences only work if they're completely related to what's happening. So if you splash the water out of the bath, we're going to get out of the bath. Bath time's done.

If you throw the food off the high chair, we're done with dinner. That works. What doesn't work is if you splash the water out of the bath, we're going to be. of the bath, there will be no stories for the rest of your life. Like that's... Because it's too, they're too disconnected? Their brains can't process it. So the bottom line is it just won't work.

You can say it, but it is completely ineffective at creating any change. What we're trying to teach kids is to make a better choice in the moment. We want them to earlier, read your cues, respect your views, listen, right? Would it work if they're ready for bed? If they're ready for bed... What about things? And then I'll move on. If they are ready for bed and I'm saying you need to lay in bed and if you don't lay in bed

and if I have a book in my hand then you won't get the story. Is that enough of a connection that they can understand the repercussions? Yes. And it can work. It can dysregulate kids further. So if it's working for you, that's fine. But if they then lose their minds, it's just too much for kids that are already a bit like. I'm just going to see you walk around with a book all the time.

I was like, there's Matt and his kids. Got the book. Another relatable example is a parent that maybe they lie with their kids for a few minutes to get them to sleep at night. Really commonly people do that these days. So they're lying with their kids to get them to sleep and the kid is mucking around being silly. They're not lying with them. And I just say, listen, there's two choices. You can lie down and I'll lie with you for the time that we've agreed on or otherwise I'm going to have to leave you to it because I'm not going to stay here.

Boundaries are about what we will and won't do. They're about what works for us or not. So a lot of what you said before, it was a statement of wishes or a statement of values. Like, we don't splash. We don't hit. And your kids are like, yeah, we do. Right? Like that's just a statement of fact.

Or we don't jump on the couch in this family. It's just kind of a statement or biscuits are not a healthy choice. Whereas the boundary is, I'm not letting you in the cupboard. I'm not going to let you hit me. I'm not going to read a third book. I know how much you want it. So the boundary is what we will and won't do. And often we get a bit confused.

We think that a statement of fact or a request. Like, guys, who wants to brush their teeth is actually not really a boundary? It's kind of a question. Yeah, okay. A boundary is, it's teeth time now. Let's go. Okay. I have one last question.

Yeah. Far away. One of my children, whenever we are talking about these boundaries, they will constantly roll the rise. Oh, yeah. Oscar. Oh, my God. and I'm worried that without having any repercussions of the rolling of the eyes, just me constantly going, it's really, I don't, it hurts my feelings when I'm trying to

explain to you the situation and you react and you roll your eyes, doesn't feel like it has any cut through. Is it just a case that my child is under the age of 10 and doesn't understand and I will have to continue driving it into their head that it's rude? Take their eyes. right, those eyes come with me. Or is there some kind of silver bullet that I can say or do something where they'll go, oh yeah, I won't do that again?

So we get confused about what, like, we have control over and not. Like as parents, we do have the job of letting our kids know what's safe, what's not safe, what works for us, what does and what we will do, what we won't do, what we will let them do. They get the job of how they feel about that. They get to roll their eyes, they get to melt down, they get to cry, they get to thrash. the question for you is what would have happened to you if you'd have rolled your eyes. And I'm guessing you got punished.

And so it feels really triggering. And it's actually more about you than anything that's happening with your kid. And I know that is just like, but that's the reality. Again. Most men struggle massively with defiance. With that kind of rolling your eyes, I'm not. doing it. I'm looking at you in the eye. I'm deliberately doing the wrong thing. Most women struggle most with whinging and whining. And let's think about what little boys and

little girls were taught. Men were taught if you muck up, if you're defined, you get punished. Most likely, we've talked about the wooden spoon. And women were taught, well, if you don't turn that frown upside down, the wind will change and you will get stuck like that. So the thing that our parent felt most uncomfortable with in us is the thing that will show up in your relationship with your child. And so in that moment, it's about remembering, like, she's allowed to express how she feels about it. And I want to tell you that as a parent of a 16-year-old boy,

I mean, it's like one day the eyes roll back in their head and you think they're going to go so far back in, they're never coming back to the front. That's how... That's the dream. That's how cringe I am. And I'm like, yeah, right? So if I go in and say, mate, it's 10 o'clock,

your phone needs to go in a locked box, which is a rule we have in our house. I mean, my kid's not going to go, oh, thanks, Mom. I love the way you keep me safe. Why not? He's going to roll his eyes. Why shouldn't he? That sucks.

That rule sucks. He's 16. He wants his phone. Other kids don't have that rule. I get it. So he might say, you're the worst, mom. He might roll his eyes. He has once thrown that phone at me.

Am I reacting in the moment? No. Can I go back and say, hey, the way phone handover went over last night, I didn't love how you threw that phone at me. That's kind of a line. Yeah. Can I set a boundary around? that? Absolutely. But it's not going to work in the moment. Yeah.

I just feel helpless. Helpless? A little bit. I feel like... I don't want you to feel helpless. No, I feel like it makes so much sense. Yeah. But I'm so bad at in the moment. So it's like, okay, well... It's easy here in this conversation. It's so easy here. And I'm triggered. I feel myself. I hear myself in your words. One, I feel bad that I didn't do that. But the second thought is, I'm bad at the that situation, I need to get better in that situation. But how do you do it? And that's the biggest question. Every single parent asks me, it's the question I have asked over and over and over. How do I be the parent I want to be in the moment? Modern parents have enough information about what kids need.

They don't need more. The issue is being that person in the moment. And the answer lies in self-compassion. Yeah. And I know that's annoying, but hang with me. In that moment when our child rolls their eyes, in that moment where our child melts down, in that moment where our kids are fighting and we feel triggered, the opportunity for us is literally a pause long enough to say, this is really hard. I'm doing something that no one did for me. There is no manual for this. I'm doing the best I can. That will stop your brain from going into fight, flight or freeze.

That will stop your reactivity. It will stop your parents' words from coming out of your mouth. Oh, God. And it gives you an opportunity to meet the need of the kid. front of you. And there's no perfect script for that. It is literally just going, I get it. You're having a hard time go to bed. This is what we're doing. Whatever. Is this something I'm going, is this a hill I'm going to die on or not? We deal with it, however we deal with it. But the opportunity for us is grabbing a breath or a pause long enough to say, this is really hard.

The analogy I'd give you is that what we're trying to do as millennial parents, and I say we, even though I'm Gen X, but anyway. We have the same shoes. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I'm a hip cat. And they're unisex. identify as what it's like. The analogy is, imagine that you were raised only speaking in French. You were parented in French. You were disciplined in French. But you've heard as an adult that it's better to parent kids in English. And so you have to read books about it and you watch social media posts about it and we listen to parent educators and we're trying our best to parent

in English. Under the pressure of your kid melting down, what language is going to come out of your mouth? Like it's going to be French. So I kind of want all parents to know that that's the reality. but the fact we're reflective, the fact we're trying, the fact we apologize is amazing. And I'm so hopeful. I think we're going to have a generation of boys and girls that are not as impacted as we are by this stuff. Yeah, because I don't remember really apparent apologising to me once. Ever. Ever.

Not unless it was like, sorry I was a bad mother. Yeah, yeah. I'm just sorry that I'm the worst mother than this. Bad time you took responsibility. But imagine, and I often say to, People imagine if you did get a phone call now, like from a parent or your parents said, you know, I'm thinking about the way I might have done some of those things. And I, you know, I sort of wish I'd done some different.

My dad tried to tell me that we don't have any childhood trauma. And I said, my therapist beg to differ. When you're trying to parent in a way which differs to how you were brought up, do you ever get mum rage? Yeah. We talked about the podcast. And I'm like, surely you're the gold standard. I imagine that every night you're just like, I love you children.

Oh, God, no. I'm not going to punch a hole in this wall. We've talked about it over and over 30%. We're shooting for 30%. And I think mum rage is happening because millennial parents are trying to be perfect 100% of the time. It is not sustainable. It's not what kids need. It's not what we need.

So we're trying to just 30% of the time, particularly when it comes to this stuff I'm talking about where we're undercovering, what's the underlying feeling for our kid, name it to tame it to help them build their regulation, 30%. Whereas if we're trying to. to be perfect and why are mum's raging? Can I just unpack how modern parenting is different? Like, do you think your mum ever in the history of parenting sat on the couch and thought, did I have the five colours in their bento lunchbox today? Did I limit their screen time enough?

And also, I'm pretty sure I ruined their attachment style by yelling. I remember six hours of TV in morning. You know, not once. Not once. Not once did our parents kind of do that or worry about that. We are worrying on a daily basis. Now, this is cool. It's a good thing. It's worth the fight, but we have to lower the pressure.

Because on top of the worry alone and the doing it differently, we have more financial pressure than ever before. We're working harder than ever before. We're parenting harder than ever before. Our kids are busier than ever before. Think about all of that. And the village has changed. And we're trying to parent in the silo.

That's a lot. Right? And then we're worried about wars and global warming. You know, it's a bit of a binfire. And then on top of this, we're criticizing every move we make. I said the wrong words. Parenting isn't made or broken in one wrong statement or one losing it. Like it's literally something we're tending moment to moment, showing up, being reflective, pivoting.

That didn't work. Let me try something else. And repairing. That's how we do it. And do you think like it's okay to let the mum rage out? Well, the mum rage has to come out. And to me, the first thing we have to do when we have a moment of mum rage is go, whoa, poor me. I obviously am under a lot of pressure here because I really care.

I'm a good mum. I really love these kids. And this stuff is really hard. What can I do to lower the pressure? How can we change things up? What can we drop? What can we ditch? How can I do something kind for myself?

It's probably the first step I would take before I address anything around my parenting. And then do you think they're the kind of questions that a dad can ask the partner if they see mum rage? No. Just let it go. What questions? Oh, how can I help? Yeah. No, I think the dad needs to say,

honey, I can see this is so tough. These kids are feralds and I'm pouring you a wine. Okay. That's what I think dads need to do. Validate, validate, validate. Because if we jump too quickly into how can I take to me? How can I help or maybe have you thought about whether you need more self-care? It'll be like, I didn't ask you for solutions.

I just want you to listen. And I think that if our partners, for both of us can say that sounds so tough. I do it with my husband. Like, he'll come home complaining about something at work. And I'm like, well, have you tried having a clear and honest conversation? He's like, excuse me, do you work in data and AI? Have you thought about communicating?

Oh, God. Does he ever catch you giving him like the parenting spiel? And you're like, I know that it's really tough working in that job. He's like, hang on a second. But I've given you 30% already today. I'm not given you 31%. I wish I did more of it, but often once I've worked it out on my kids, I've got nothing left for him. So I'm just like, I don't have time for whatever this is.

You just shut up. I think these days when we're parenting in a way where at the forefront, we're so conscious of the impacts that we can have with our kids in a negative way. And we're trying to almost wrap them in cotton wool because we don't want to offend them and always like core memories. What are they going to remember? How can we parent in a way where we're still making them resilient? Step back. So we want to step back in terms of what can I step back from, whether it's a child learning to tie their shoes or pour their milk or play a bit independently, step back allowing them to climb a tree and sometimes fall and step back from trying to fix their feelings when you set

a boundary. The TV's going off. I get that you're going to roll your eyes or you're going to tell me I'm terrible or melt down and that's okay. I'm stepping back from trying to fix that or make it better or try to coach you out of doing that. I'm just going to allow you to have that. Now, our parents did that differently. They punished. So we learned not to do it in a different way. And the reason that we feel like we're walking on eggshells or we're on that hamster wheel of trying to make our kids' childhoods magical is because we're not allowed to do that anymore. So now we're like, well, I need to fix it then.

But actually, if we can step back from fixing everything for our kids, we're going to build resilience. Everything we're doing, naming emotions, doing what we're doing 30% of the time is amazing for our kids' emotional literacy. for their resilience anyway, but probably the thing that modern kids are struggling with more is frustration tolerance. They don't get enough opportunities to feel frustrated because their world is on demand. How can I make sure that I am parenting a child that's going to be resilient? You want to step back. So if we can step back a little from interfering with our kids' emotions and feelings from the very beginning right the way through and really asking that question, what can I step back from? From the minute our kids are sort of trying and trying and trying to do

something, even a young child reaching for a ball. And we want to step in, we want to fix it or solve it or roll the ball towards them. If we can step back just long enough for our child to maybe have success, what we have is that opportunity to build resilience because it's through the striving and striving and striving and then succeeding that our kids build that resilience. and the issue with modern kids is that they don't get as many opportunities to build frustration tolerance because they live in an on-demand world. So their TV is on demand. They don't know how to rewind a DVD like we did.

Their life is a little bit easier. And so as parents, when we can step back from fixing or solving their problems, like when we set a boundary and say, that's it, no more screen time. And our kids get upset. It's not stepping in to fix that or solve that or stop that. for our kids. We're allowing them to feel the discomfort or the frustration of the boundary. And that's what builds that frustration tolerance. That's what builds resilience long term. Jen, there's something that I get when we talk and it's the fact that I feel like I can run through

a brick wall slash parent my kids. It's resilience. I'm like, where are my kids? I want to parent them right now. That is good. I like that. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you, Jen. And you're welcome back anytime. Please. And when we say that... We mean it. To be honest, man, I don't know where to start. The empathy sandwich is definitely something I'm going to try with the kids.

Don't lie to me. Well, I'm used to getting a shit sandwich, so empathy sandwich sounds much better. Be honest with me right now. Look at me in the eyes and tell me if you will be using an empathy sandwich. Come on. I go lie. I'll try. I forgot the ingredients already, so...

Hey, the good news is Ash. I know you're a little bit worked up about the fact that Oscar does like to lie to you. Marley also is a bit of a liar at the moment, but it's nice to know it's coming from a good place, right? Yeah, I'm confused because he's a liar, but his pants don't seem to be on fire. Get it back. Bring it back! Why is this? If you've enjoyed this episode, we would love it.

Is it a new request that I have? It's no longer to review, although I still want reviews. What I want you to do right now is subscribe to us. See, if you listen to this podcast and you don't subscribe, you don't get the episodes delivered directly into your podcast inbox every week. Do it right now. And if you want to get in touch with Jen, whether it's for a book, the cards, or some one-on-one parenting help, we'll have the details on the show notes below.

And also on social media, please follow us, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, the works. Let's go. Let's get out of here. I'm hungry for an empathy sandwich. Goodbye. Two doting dance podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of countries. throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community.

We pay our respects to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gatigal Land.