Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #226 Highs & Lows with Holly Nicholson (Kingston)

Episode Date: May 17, 2026

You might remember Holly Nicholson from winning the heart of Pilot Jimmy on The Bachelor - but these days her biggest challenge is negotiating with a toddler and surviving motherhood on minimal sleep. Since finding reality TV love, Holly’s gotten married, had baby Lenny and built a loyal following by sharing the very real side of mum life… and not just the cute Instagram bits. From toddler meltdowns to the relentless chaos of raising a tiny human, Holly’s refreshingly honest about the parts of motherhood that are messy, mundane and occasionally make you question your sanity. In this chat, Holly opens up about her struggles to fall pregnant, the challenges that came after Lenny arrived, and the things you should absolutely never say to a pregnant woman unless you’ve got a death wish. If this chat raises any feelings for you - you can see help from: https://www.panda.org.au/ https://www.gidgetfoundation.org.au/ https://www.lifeline.org.au/ https://www.beyondblue.org.au/  If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Back to two doting dads and... One doting mom. I'm Maddie J. I'm Ash. And I'm Holly. Very good. How many episodes have you listened to? Oh, quite a few.

Really? Yeah. Would you like some feedback? Yeah. No, no, I really enjoy. Really? Yes, I really enjoy it. You know what just saying that?

Well, we'll find out after this. Snip it up, we're done. This is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good. It is the bad. And they're relatable. And if you've come for advice, you're an idiot. Because we don't do it.

We never will. No, Holly might, though. Holly, yeah, you can. I can't fucking stand unsolicited advice. Good. I think that's why I like the podcast. And I like the vulnerability as well. I did mention that to you earlier.

Thank you. You're due for a tear, actually. That was like a week ago. I know. He's like, cry, cry, cry. We start these episode asking a very simple question. Do you recall the most trouble you got in as a child? Have you ever seen a photo of me as a child, like over the years?

Have I ever shown you? No, but I'd love to. I've got heaps of them. Oh, that's. Got that bit out. Okay. I did not get up to anything as a child. Like, I was pretty good.

I actually have sent big a photo of me as a child. I think it does put things in perspective. Like, my best friend was my very overweight pug. I used to have birthday parties for my, for my pug dog. I thought you were going to say, like, my very overweight friends, Sarah. Shout out of Sarah. Still fat. What was the pug's name?

Elvis. So like that... Wow. The pug, not you. I think that puts him in perspective, you know, how I was a pretty well-behaved kid. Because I was just... Why? That was a birthday party for my dog.

And no one turned up. That pug... Oh no. I know. That pug is... The pug was there. The pug was massive. And he was on light food and everything.

But when I was a teenager, I definitely like, like I got the braces off. I lost the puppy fat. I started dyeing my hair blonde, hanging out with boys. And I, yeah. And I, um, I did a lot of park parties. Like, well, park parties are the thing when you, are you guys? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Whereabouts, like, geographically, where are we talking? Near here. Near here. Okay. So, Sydney. Private school dickheads. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like up the road.

I'll have a good park parties. Yeah. Yeah. So I used to go to a lot, still. I used to go to a lot of park parties. I used to feel like a Mount Franklin with like green, Cotty's Cordial and my mom used to have vodka in the freezer and I would take a bit and then fill some with water but then like eventually it froze solid.

Underline the word used to have vodka in the freezer. It's true. So yeah, I was caught out at park parties like by my parents. I had one really bad situation where my dad came and found me at about 10pm. How old are we talking here? Oh, I reckon about 14. We don't condone. I actually heard you say that you started drinking at 14.

recently. You've done to research and I don't like it. Yeah, those were the days. Like, I did a lot of, like, sneaking out and that kind of stuff. But my mum was one of those moms, which terrified me. She wasn't, she never yelled, never got angry. She just went silent. And I think that's fucking terrifying.

I'd love that. I wish I could do that. Just have the presence. Just be the presence. And everyone's like, yeah, I just, I don't wield any power. You're too goofy. You would be quite, are you quite stern? Like, are you, who's the stern parent, you or Laura?

It's pretty 55. Do you fucking mind? Matthew is the stern one. No, we're both pretty stern. I mean, last night, Marley finished dinner and went, where's the dessert? And I was like, that's it. You get nothing when you talk like that.

And I was like, that was the hill that I was going to die on for that day. It's just like, you should pick your hills. Sometimes I just, you know, But it depends. It's very much like the stern batten is one that Laura and I pass back and forth. Yeah, right. Okay. See, I'm just not at that stage of parenting yet, so I'm not sure what I'm going to, I think I'm just going to be a complete pushover. How often do you hit Lenny? Every now and then, when he deserves this. That's not enough. No, sorry, so your dad picked you up. 10 p.m. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, he picked me up 10 p.m. I'd done the full tuck

of the pillows in the bed. Did you ever do that? Ferris Bueller's Day off, you really? That's my, yeah, that must have been where I got from. I thought it was a Shawshank Redemption. That too? Okay. That's a good one. Yeah.

Did you dig a hole through the brick wall of your house? No, like I don't think I went that far. We were in a rental, I think that was. Yeah, that must have contributed. You want to get the money back after the lease. Yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, no, he came and picked me up. I think I was in, I was with some gentlemen of some sort.

Good of him to find where you are, though. I know. Well, there was one park that, that we went to quite a lot nearby, and I think he just, he knew. And I just got this, like I was somewhere around some sort of bush. And it was like, holyoli, holy. Just like straight. And I was like, fuck. And he went ape shit, but my mum, you know, just went silent for about a week.

Yeah, it was hot. Like teenage years, I think, is where I really brought it out. But also, a bit of green cotties, delicious. Yeah. Bit of vodka. Sounds. No, no, no. No.

Not me. Me. No. Do you remember just quickly, when did you start becoming really interested in boys, do you think? Oh. This took a time. Is this because of your sexologist chat?

No, well, Marley, I'm like, I'm trying to think when is she going to start? Oh, okay. Oh, see, I think I was a bit late because, like, you saw that photo. Like, I think that would have been about 10. But I think, and also I went to a girl school. So I think it was like. Out of sight, out of mind? Yeah, maybe.

And then, like, when I was probably about 14, it was like, it was the forbidden fruit, you know? Yeah. But I think you've got a little while, surely. But also. Well, these days, that does terrify me about having a girl, actually. I must say, I think because I knew, I know what I was like as a teenager. I still want a girl, but you know. Boys are just quite, I feel like quite a lot easier to manage.

Like not at this age, but maybe in teenage years. So like at this age, like Lenny needs a helmet. Yeah, I look back. I was, like you said, you have to have a helmet because I just broke bikes. And I remember having a ride on lawnmower that I rolled down the hill. I was just breaking. everything, I was so stupid, but then when it became teenage years, that's when I was pretty well-behaved and my sister was off the rails. Yeah, right. I do recall that story.

She was off. Yes, yes. I want to give a nod to your beautiful husband, Jimmy. How did you guys meet? Oh, very innovative. It was very organic. Yeah, that's straight up. Bachelor alum. I'm actually not going to speak about that much Bachelor. Yeah, feel a little left out. Do you want to just actually give us, oh, thank you. God. Yeah. Thanks so much. That's all right.

So obviously there is the contract which says you have to have a child if you end up together after the show. How long do you guys have to stay together for? Oh, I think on mine it was 10, 10 years. I've got five to go. Yeah. Yeah. So close.

She's got an end date. It sounds great. Yeah. Mine's indefinite. It's up to her, really. If you're sick of me, it's fine. Yeah, so it's been five years since batch, I think. Far out.

And then they moved to like the three bachelor thing. it then I just ran out ideas. They ran out of ideas. What do we do? Just throw a bunch of people together. Literally. See, our story, I think, could be a little bit different maybe because when we started to have kids, it was a welcome surprise. How was it for you and Jimmy? Did you guys sit down and go, all right, let's do it.

Let's start a family. Well, I mean, you know what Bachelor's like. I think the conversation started from there. Like on your first day, you're talking about those things on a dating show, you know. It's like, and the kids, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What?

You wouldn't understand. He went on the show. Yeah, exactly. Sounds like a hoot. No, Jimmy and I, we definitely always spoke about one. Why are you looking at me like that? Oh, no, I'm intrigued.

Sorry, sorry. No, Jimmy and I always spoke about. It's off-putting, I know. I've just seen it cross every week. And he's like, it's the raised eyebrow. Yeah, no, we always, we've always, we've, always spoken about having kids.

We started trying very soon after we got married. And it did take us a little while. I think it definitely wasn't as quick as you guys. That period is wild. Like every month, it feels like an eternity when you're trying for a baby. And like I can't even imagine I heard your episode with Tanya Hennessy. And like seven years, I'm just like just the strength of someone like that and the strength, like how strong your marriage would have to be. to go through that because Jimmy and I were fighting constantly.

And I think it was my first real understanding of how different this journey is going to be for a mum and a dad. Because for me, when we were trying for a baby, I was like, every month I was like, I'm pregnant. I know it. Like I feel weird. Like my stomach feels weird. I'm all moody.

Like I'd make up symptoms in my head. And my shoulders are a bit sore. That's it. Yeah. And then I wouldn't be pregnant. And I think that was my first understanding of like, this is my body that everything is happening to. And Jimmy is obviously very much a part of it. But it's kind of like he's witnessing it.

He's not feeling it. Which is equally as hard because I was like psycho when we were trying for a baby. But it was a little while, nowhere near as long as many people who, but we got to the stage of sperm tests and all of that kind of stuff, which was a hoot. And obviously with ovulating is so important. And Jimmy is a pilot. Well said. Thank you.

Put that on a t-shirt. Ovulating is so important. When I die, I want to be known for that sentence. That and a couple other ones that have come out. That was a good one. That should be the title of the show, I reckon. Obulating is obviously so important. Sorry.

Says words I stand by. Words I stand by. Okay. And Jimmy's a pilot. Yes. Okay. That's all I got. I got nothing else.

How did you make that work? If he's off, back, forward, you know. Very good question. Yeah. I feel like now you're patroni. No, very good. Ovulating is obviously very important. I stand by it.

Would you like me to take it from here? Yes, please. Okay, perfect. Well, you're the one who obviously was later, so you might as well take it. Yeah, so Jimmy was actually training for the 787 when I think we were probably eight months in. That's a plane, yeah. It's a dance. Yeah.

Yeah. Five, six, seven, eight, seven. Go! Will we ever get through the seven? Let's get back to ovulating. Sounds good to me. My favorite word. Yeah, he was training for the 787 in Abu Dhabi at the time.

And he was over there for three months. And me being, yeah, I think we were probably seven or eight months into trying. And I was like, absolutely not. Like, so I went over there for a month. with him just to try and maximize just that one month because I was like, we've lost two. And at this point, had he tested the sperm or not yet? No, that was when we came back. Yeah.

So obviously the Abu Dhabi trip was unsuccessful. You maximized the month, which is always good. I don't know if it is. I actually don't, like trying for a baby, I did not find fun at all. I don't think he did either. It was just like, I just remembered something actually. I remembered when one day Jimmy got home from work and he was like, the exact word he's going to kill me for saying this exact phrase that he used was all right

doesn't have to be pretty gestured and i was like oh my god he now we now say that to each other like when we're changing a napi or something doesn't have to be pretty yeah yeah that was not in the mood jimmy yeah yeah yeah he doing his pilot boys well it doesn't have to be pretty ladies a thousand feet we're actually something a little bit i guess yeah i never really appreciated what that must be like, because I hate to say it, but it happened so quickly for us. You had fast sperm. Thank you. But then when for a relationship, a lot of the good parts is having sex.

And so when that... I don't see that. But when that fun is taken away from an activity, which is one that you really enjoy, how that would impact overall the relationship. Yeah. I mean, it was in terms of intimacy. I feel like it's one of those things that for us will bring us back together after having a rough patch. And I feel like that just, it just didn't serve that purpose during that time.

Yeah. That year or so that we were trying was just not, it was just not enjoyable. Yeah. Yeah. So then did the sperm test provide a lot of answers for you guys? Well, no. Well, his sperm was actually riders. It was all good.

So basically we had, we had a sperm test on a Wednesday. And on the Friday, I was getting what's called a high. cozy, which I think is basically like where they flush out your fallopian tubes or something. Anyway, on the third... I had no idea. That happens. Yeah. I'm sorry.

I think I actually don't know much about it. So I won't even, because I didn't actually end up doing it. Because basically Wednesday, sperm test, Friday was this procedure I was having done. And the Thursday, I found out I was pregnant. And I think, yeah, so I think it was just... Big weak. But do you know what it was, interestingly? I think I had put so much pressure.

And you hear people talk about this all the time. I had put so much pressure on. on myself. I reckon I was just so stressed, so unhappy. And Jimmy was probably the same. And I think when I just was like, okay, we're getting these tests done next month. There's nothing I can physically do anymore. So I'm just going to enjoy myself. And it was that month that we got pregnant. And I'm not saying that that's the answer to everything. Obviously, everyone has different scenarios. But for us, that I think was a big thing. And I think Lenny was conceived on like a lot of wine as well.

Good to know Can I get you Holly I know you spoke about a few The fucking annoying things That people would say to you When you were pregnant Yeah

Oh it's got to be Are you sure it's not twins Did you actually get that Oh my All the time All the time Are you sure it's not twins Ash's had a doozy before

Oh I had a doozy Oh what did you do Long before having kids I was at a party And a friend of mine She was a friend She's a friend A stranger

She walked in and I was like Whoa you're huge. In front of her and her husband who was a police officer. And then I got pulled over for a random breath test by the police officer husband. Not long after. And he was like, do you remember that? In your defence, I've been guilty of going, wow, there's like no bump there.

Yeah, okay. At the other end of the spectrum. What can you say? But it's something that you just have no idea until you're around a pregnant woman or until you're pregnant. just how sensitive you are. Yeah, it's like, oh, gee, you look uncomfortable. I am uncomfortable, right? But you are.

But I mean that sincerely, not you look hard and uncomfortable. My internal organs have had like three quarters of the space removed by a human being, which is growing up in front of me. There's something my fucking grandmother would say. Oh, God. Is anything you've had said to you, Vic? I got compared to a yoga ball. Wow.

Oh, wow. I've even got a photo Of the yoga ball The swelling's bad, isn't it? Me on a couch with a yoga ball And I'm in a big red jumper And the yoga ball is red And Dan took a photo

Oh my God Oh, Daniel! Like which one's which? I was like, who was that asshole? Can we get that photo? Was there anything else that sticks out That you were told? I'm trying to think.

Like there were a lot. It just feels like so, so long ago. What else was there? I got April pretty good ones where I pointed to a belly. I said that was my best go. Oh. She hated that. I'm sure she did.

Still with me though. I actually think my husband was probably the culprit of a lot of the annoying comments. Yeah. Man are dumb. Like it was a lot of, I got the impression, and I will give him the chance to rebut this at some stage. But I got the impression Jimmy thought that it just wasn't that hard, you know? So Jimmy actually went to a buck. when I was about 36 weeks pregnant.

Wow. And he went to a box in Melbourne and he was out that he says it was a pub. It wasn't a pub. He was out the front of a pub. And he just kind of managed to just slip on a gutter. Well, this is his story anyway. And he did something to his ankle. I think he tore ligaments or something in his ankle.

And he came back from Melbourne on crutches when we were moving house in a week. Oh, fun. And that, I reckon that was the closest we've ever been to do. divorce. Like, I will never forget, we're moving out of our Bondi apartment, which had two floors, two flights of stairs. I was, yes, 36 weeks pregnant. And Jimmy Dernamine goes, would you mind carrying the Weber and the gas bottle? And then pointed to his ankle. And I was like, absolutely no. Men are so dumb. Yeah. Bless. Bless. Bless us. And so then what is it like when you've wanted something for so long, month after month after month, and you finally get it,

is it as good as you're imagining it to be? I think a lot of this conversation we're going to have, I feel like every aspect, like trying for a baby, being pregnant and then post having a baby, I think every aspect of it hasn't been exactly what I would have thought. I think like pre, as I said, we didn't enjoy it all that much. We were fighting a lot, all of that. When I got pregnant, I think I was in so much disbelief. And I was just so petrified that something was going to go wrong that I genuinely, even when I was feeling him kick and whatnot, until he came out, I did not believe there was even a human in there.

I think it's just like such, I don't know how you can even explain having a child come out of you to someone who hasn't experienced it or, you know, witnessed it. No, but you guys witness it. I think it's just like, I just didn't believe that it was a human in there. Do you think that like you might have thought that to protect yourself? Absolutely. I think that's a big thing. And then I think post having Lenny, I feel like that's where things kind of spiraled for me a little bit. I feel like, and I know you've spoken about postpartum depression, baby blues, whatever it might be.

I feel like that for me, post having Lenny, I pretty much knew instantly. I reckon it was day two that I wasn't feeling the way that I should. And I think after having Lenny, I was just like so anxious. I was so the feelings that I had in pregnancy that something was going to go wrong. I had those for so long. Like I reckon almost a year post, you know, I'm only just getting out of that phase. And when you're having those thoughts, obviously you're speaking to Jimmy about them. Are you opening that conversation up with other people or are you just internalizing it?

I think the first six months, I really like, It's actually really sad because I look back at photos of Lenny, videos of Lenny in those first six months. And like I just don't feel like I remember so much of it. It feels so dark to me that time. And I hate saying this because I feel like whenever I heard someone speak like this about having a baby before having a baby, I was like, they obviously resent their new life. They obviously aren't connected to their baby.

Like I had those thoughts. And I think oddly enough, it's. probably the opposite. Like you love this baby so much that you are so terrified something is going to happen to them. And I think for me at every stage it was, you know, in the hospital, day two or three, I remember begging Jimmy. I was like, can we just not go to sleep? Because I just, I don't want to go to sleep and then for something to happen to him. And I knew that that wasn't a rational thought. And I knew that people don't think like this. I just thought this is, you know, something wrong. And I think when we were pregnant and we went to go meet the midwife and

see the hospital, she spent probably 95% of our appointment talking about postpartum depression. And we walked away and Jimmy was like, wow, that was really depressing. Like I thought we were going to see the hospital and get really excited. But that was depressing. And I just, I just knew that once I was confronted with all this information, I was like, I just feel like, this is going to be me, that I'm just going to go through all of these thoughts. Because you had depression previously. I don't know if I can, like this is something I've never actually really spoken about publicly, but I think, I don't know if I can classify it as depression.

What happened for me was when I was about 14, my parents separated, like, quite a hectic time. And it was just one of those, like, talking about depression and whatnot was not a thing back then. Like even, I feel like it's come along so much, even in the last five years. It's wild. Yeah. So back then it was just like not spoken about. And I was going through all this, probably what is just teenage angst. Like I was just going through all of the motions.

Plus, my parents having this separation, my mum and I were left in quite a bad financial way. Like, mum and I were living out of suitcases for two years when I was going through my HSC and all of that. And it was, and no one knew about it because I held like so much shame around it. And I remember going to a GP, and this would just never happen now. But instead of her telling me to go see a psychologist or see the school therapist, she just immediately prescribed me LexaPro at 14. And Lexa Pro is antidepressants or anti-anxiety antidepressants.

And I just don't feel like that happens anymore. I feel like in your teenage years, it's such a pure. pivotal stage of your development. And I never spoke to anyone about that, like, ever. And I actually was on antidepressants because I was so reliant on them. Because being on them from 14, most of my, like, teenage adult life, I was on those until Bachelor. Holy shit.

And then, so 14 years. And they just blunt you so much. So, well, that's, I have so much resentment to, and I know you know about this kind of, all of this. But it's, I think, I have so much. resentment because in those years, I didn't feel the highs. I didn't feel the lows. I just lived life in between. And I went on Bachelor. I was with Jimmy for about six months and I'd hidden them from him for those. Because it's just something I've always hid. It's the muscle memory. Yes.

And I also didn't know what I would be like without them. I think that's the main thing. because like I think I was just, I always thought that maybe I was crazy as a teenager. And if I get off them, am I going to, I don't mean to say crazy, but you know what I mean? Yep. And so, anyway, I hid them from Jimmy until he kind of figured those out. And he was amazing, like, helped me get off them. And it turns out I don't think I'm crazy, which is great. How did it feel when something that you've hidden for so long,

was finally realized by your partner. Oh, I felt so much shame around them. I think as well, like Jimmy's mom and his sister are both clinical psychologists. Which, can I just say, I don't know if it's just me, but when you're in the presence of a psychologist, I'm like, everything I do, I'm like, oh my God, they're going to fucking judge me. Dude, I ran into mine at the shops. She was like, hey, I was like, ah! Wait, your personal scientist?

It's like seeing a teacher out at school. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They know too much. They know too much. Yeah. Yeah. So I think having been so reliant on those for so many years, I think the biggest thing that I learned is that I didn't know how to control the highs

and how to control the lows as well as I probably should have. So when I was being briefed about perinatal depression and postnatal depression, all of those things, I was like, oh, it's a given. Like I'm just, I know that I'm not going to be able to experience this. Like becoming a parent is genuinely like the most. highs and lows you'll ever experience in your life. So I was like, I'm not going to be able to handle this. And turns out I didn't. And I carried so much shame around that as well. Because I think in those first six months, as I said, like looking back at photos, videos and not

understanding, like not remembering those times genuinely just, yeah, it's horrible. Like horrible. Do you think you like hit it over that time because there's this expectation, which is unrealistic of that you've got to love it immediately. You've got to be in awe of your baby immediately. You've got to be shown to be enjoying it. Oh, without a doubt. And I think the social media element as well, I've lived my life so publicly on social media for five years.

And all you see when, well, all I saw in those first six months post-having Lenny, all I saw was just amazing photo shoots with, you know, like very few people actually. talk about the highs and lows of parenthood, in my opinion. I just, other than you guys, you're doing a great job. And by the way, it's not, it's not everyone's prerogative to do so. Like, people use Instagram and TikTok and whatnot in their own ways.

But I do remember at about three months postpartum going to this mums and bubs event that my agent was like, you should go, which is my worst nightmare, by the way. That's just, I hate events at the best of times, but going to like a, having to talk about milk supply and stuff with influences. It's not my jam. But I remember going and there were all these actually like really just relatable people there. And I had so many deep conversations with all these women about sleep and about all the things that they were going through.

I remember getting home. I was looking through Instagram and I was like, these same people are just posting like how amazing this event was and how put together they are and, you know, their kids outfit and whatnot. And I was like, wow, like there is very, and people watch this stuff at home. And they go, wow, I'm doing a shit job because I feel a certain way, but this person's killing it. And I think that's when I decided to just go, take off everything, take off the mask and just go,

I'm going to actually talk about the crappy times as well on socials. I think it's something that as dads, we really underestimate the privilege that we have to be able to be open and complain about parenting. because we both love our kids, unconditional. We do anything for them. But we have complete freedom to be like, fuck and how they suck. They're so annoying.

Without being overly judged. And as long as we have a pram in hand, people are like, oh my gosh, so best job. Ever. True. I just know, like, since becoming a parent, I've noticed Jimmy gets no shit whatsoever.

Like, he could do no wrong. And I think it's an interesting one speaking publicly about the highs and lows on socials, because you get so many people who, I don't know, it's such a fine line, right? Like, you could be seen as complaining. You could be seen as ungrateful. You could be seen as a shit, mom. You could be seen as all these things.

And I have been seen by, in my DMs, probably 5, 10% of the time. Every time I speak about something, it's, wow, you are so ungrateful. I'm going through this. And you just have to become so self-aware, but it's a really fine line, I think. It's kind of like, you're not allowed to have. any other emotions other than to be happy with your circumstance. When people like that who will go, you're so ungrateful, I'm going through this. It's like, okay, well, you've just come at me with, I'm ungrateful because you're going

through something different. Maybe you should concentrate on that instead of concentrating on me a little bit. Yeah. Do you know what I realize on the weekend as well is there was a family at school and the mum is incredible. I see her so often by herself with all the children, constantly at the park, at the beach, just juggling. And I'm always like, oh, she's doing such a good job. And then there was a weekend where she was away and the dad had the kids. And just every parent at school was throwing themselves at the dad to be like, you're by yourself. You need help. I'll take one of your children. I can

babysit her and like just doing whatever they can to lighten the load. And moms don't get that same kind of treatment. It's just expected. And so when you're there in the first six months trying to parent, Jimmy is also with work in and out of the country, who is supporting you? I think that was a ginormous thing for me. I shut myself off massively because I didn't want to admit that I was struggling. Like, I felt so much shame that I wasn't enjoying every second of being a mum. But the truth is, like, Jimmy would go away and he'd be away for five days or four, three, four, five days, whatever it might be.

And by the end, I just was so resentful. I was so unhappy. And it's so hard because he's not enjoying being away from his family either. You know, like he's got a very important job flying 300 plus people to a destination and back, whereas I saw it as, you know, we live our lives on social media. So I saw a lot of the things he was doing in Thailand or Korea or whatever. And I'd be like, this guy is literally, he's doing a food tour of Pouquet. And I'm changing nappies and getting spewed on and so sleep deprived. And I just felt like I was doing everything by myself. And I don't think we ever had that chat as well at the start

of like, am I going to, I don't have a conventional job. I don't have a nine to five job with maternity leave. We didn't have that conversation of, okay, you're going to be at home with Lenny. I'm going to continue my job. And, you know, it was a tough one for me to swallow because I just felt so out of my depth. I think people... You also moved to Northern Beaches. We moved about an hour away from where we used to be when I was about two weeks off giving birth. Good timing. Yeah, I know. Really good. I know. I went into nesting phase. But I think I didn't have much of a network up there. And I think people forget in those first, probably even up until like they're crawling and they're walking. And it's like it is so hands on. Just leaving to have a shower is not

possible. Like I would go days without having a shower. And I think it's just, which sounds kind of gross, but I think it was just such a demanding time. And I just, it's such a tough one. And I know a lot of people experience this when their partner goes to work, even, you know, a nine to five job. They'll get home and you'll be like, where the fuck have you been all day? Like it's so, and I think I just had that in a little bit of an extreme way. So what was the turning point for you then? And you were talking about the six month mark. Was there something that changed? So I thought about therapy. I thought about a psychologist. I was way too ashamed to admit that I needed that, I think. I think despite the fact if I said to Jimmy, I want to see a psychologist, he'd be like all for it.

I think I was still really hiding the fact just how bad I was feeling. And anyway, so I was like the only thing I can probably start doing is like exercising more or whatnot. I used to do Pilates. I used to go to the gym. And then I was like, what's something that you can do really quickly that people like just rave about endorphins wise? So I started running, which is just like I was, I'd never run a kilometer in my entire life.

Actually, I was thinking about this on the drive-in. Gone. I remember about three years ago when I attended. did a 1K run and I was struggling. Did I run past you? Oh! I was like, I think I was. I was about 500 meters in and I was like struggling.

And I stopped Rose Bay golf course. This wanker runs past me. Sweaty, shirt off. Like, I could even hear your music. Yeah. And it was you. Are you sure? Fucking Maddie J.

Yeah. It would have been a visual. So you must know what running feels like. And I was like, I think I saw Holly in cardiac arrest. I should call an ambulance. I did the same. I started running after having, and I was never a long distance. I was like short distance as a kid.

And I remember it was like, what could I do to like, yeah, get my endorphins? Because I was obviously trying to navigate what you're navigating now. And also with April. And I remember being like, yeah, like running. Like it just. The further away I run, the further I have to run back. And I'm like, I would just keep running further and further. I actually got to a point where I was like, every beer I drink, I'm going to do a

kilometre one month, 300 kilometres. Which is equally impressive. Thank you. And concerning. Yeah. I'm sorry now. That's fine. But it is one of those things that it's like the most indoor, you would know because

you sprinted past them. The endorphins is just like, it's like you're a different person for that moment. Yeah, I think it's as well. Like if I went to Pilates or something, I'd be watching them on it the whole time. Or I don't know. And also going through so much change physically for me. Like I was so, I was lacking so much confidence in my body. And I think that's another thing when you live your life on social media.

You're just like, you're your toughest, toughest critic. And that doesn't have to be if you live your life on social media. I think a lot of people are. But I don't know. I would go, yeah, I would do Pilates. I would do the gym or whatever. And because I used to do all of that, I would go to a Pilates class and be like, wow, like I used to be able to do this or I used to have all this core strengths and I used to not have this pouch that I would just be staring at and I would compare myself to my pre-pregnant self.

And then I started running and because I sucked at running, the second that I started doing like proper, like I did five kilometres and then, you know, it went up from there. But I had nothing to compare it to my pre-pregnant self. And I was just like, my confidence just started going through the roof. And I also think I've never been able to meditate. Like, I'm just not that person who can just sit. And someone sent me a meditating app recently. Like, here's the code. And I was like, Jimmy, I'm going to go meditate.

He's like, what? And I'm like, I put like the 10 minute meditation on or something. And I can just hear Lenny like screaming in the back. And I'm like, how do people do this? This is just not. I don't know. I don't get it. It's, I can't physically clear my mind.

So I think running was that for me. And I think from there, it just kind of lifted. I also think in those first six months for me, I was just so anxious at every stage. Most parents are like, oh, you know, we're moving them into the new room. And like every stage was exciting. For me, I was like, I'm just getting the hang of this stage. And now you're going to throw something else at me. Like I've got to pull his arms out of a sack.

And then I would get anxious about that. Is he going to roll over and I'm going to be asleep and he's, you know, something's going to happen to him. And I think just naturally at the six months mark, I started getting less anxious about all of those things. They're a little less precious. Yeah. And you feel like you can, I don't know, I think it was just a combination of things that lifted for me. But exercise was probably running was one of them. I totally underestimate. I know Laura really wants to go back to the gym and when she does, I'll speak to like, how was your session? And she's like, fuck, I'm just so much weaker. You know, like, I can't even

squat anything at the moment. All I can do is the bar and that's all. And I forget such a huge sacrifice on your body when you have a child that then when you're trying to get back to your fitness, it's just a constant reminder every exercise of like, you're so much weaker than you once were. Yeah. And I just, a lot of my friends, you'll look at them and you'll be like, they look exactly the same as pre-pregnancy. I think a lot of women don't feel like that, though. Like, I don't think my body will ever be the same. My stomach has always, like, it just feels different. It's, it's really, it's, I've got the pouch thing going on.

And it's something that was so critical of ourselves. And I think that was, that can also be like a really tough thing post having a baby because you don't, you have no motivation to go and do anything because you just feel like crap. Like you just feel like you're not going to get back to what you were and why, you know. Yeah, there's this whole thing about bounce back culture. What are your thoughts on? Bounce forward. Bounce forward.

Yeah. Okay. Explain. Well, I think I actually spoke about this on life uncut. Like when I was three months. Yeah, scrap that. I heard it's a really, really bad podcast. I was three months post-having Lenny when I went on Life Uncut and we spoke about

bounce back and bounce forward. And bounce forward, I think, is just like a new version of yourself. It's not thinking about going back to the old version. But I must say, I do believe in bounce forward now. I think like I am so much more confident, ironically, having just spoken about what we spoke about. I'm so much more confident today. than I was pre-pregnancy.

And I feel like, I was looking at a guy at the gym the other day. He's probably like 25 or something. You're married, holy. I know. It's like 25 or something. It was in good Nick. Don't get me wrong. I'm actually 35.

But he was looking at himself and he was doing the bicep curls and stuff. And I was looking at him at it. And I was going, yeah, but have you to live in a baby? Like, look what I've done, you know? I think it's just this newfound confidence that you just, you have, to, it's what goes up must come down, what goes down must come up. It's kind of like, you have to really go through this identity loss. You have to go through the tough things to go, wow, like look at where I am now. And I think that's where I am now. I love being a mum

now. I've gotten through all of those things that have made me so much stronger. Do you know what else you love? A drink. Oh, here we go. Yeah, I've seen it. Here we go. I've seen the video. Just keep those headphones on. For the one sound go. I'm noise counselling. I haven't heard a single thing anymore. And if you're not sure what I'm talking about, there was a recent video you guys were on holiday.

And you had just reached the milestone of no longer breastfeeding? Or how did you express? That was probably, I stopped breastfeeding at one year. But I, you know, I breastfed. But one boob gave up, actually. So I was breastfeeding off, like, just the right boobs. Just the right one going strong. I was very wonky for a while.

Did you walk around and so? So where were you on holiday? We're in Bali at an all-inclusive resort. And my husband... Yeah, well, apparently so do I. Yeah, my husband decided to fill me basically just really going for it, which went... It went quite viral, I think. How many million?

Oh, God, I don't know. I haven't looked... It wasn't me that posted at first. It was heaps. It was heaps of millions. It's a lot. Yeah. There's a lot there. I have, I do recall seeing stuff.

I didn't see how many million. I think it was, um, I mean, it's just such a polarizing topic, isn't it, on social media? Like, it's something I really steer clear of talking about, if I'm completely honest. Like breastfeeding, formula feeding, all of those things. It's such a delicate topic. It's red hot. Oh, yeah.

When something like that goes viral, I just steer very clear of the comments. Because you're in your own little bubble when you've got your own followers. And, you know, people are so lovely. And then something goes viral and you're like, oh, wow, like this is the internet. It's like reading a daily mail article comments. You just don't do it. Yeah. But I think there was a little bit of controversy about that video.

Many people, you know, you can drink whilst you're breastfeeding. And then that would start a whole thing. Like a micro discussion. But like you suggested it, but it was someone else that commented saying that right? Yes. And people, ah, that irks been the most. When someone else actually says that, you haven't mentioned that. And then all of a sudden it's directed at you because someone's been like,

and they're like, holy, you can't drink when you're, it's your fault that he wrote that. And then you're a little bit hung over and you're like, can this get any worse? Yeah. Turn your phone on. You're like, oh, God. Yeah, and that was in lifetime too. Usually we post things kind of a couple of, but that was, I woke up with quite a hangover that day.

And Jimmy's like, good news. We went viral. Probably was, to be fair. Yeah, but it's one of those things. I think the most kind of controversial comments on that were, you know, you know, you can drink when you're breastfeeding and then people going like, what, you can't like go a year without drinking, you know, and I'm like, I never knew a time where I needed all. wine more than in that first year. But yeah, I don't know. That was a, that was an interesting way.

There's a lot of like mixed opinions on, especially even people that see that. It's like, you've gone a whole year of breastfeeding. You just said one of your breasts gave out. You've decided to stop breastfeeding, which every mom does or if, you know, if they are breastfeeding, like April, I think it was, Macy was a year and Oscar was like two years, mummies boy. And it was, it's like, you know, why would you give that up? It's like, it's not of your fucking business for starters. And also, it's time. It's time. and then also now I, you know, I need a drink now. Like, God, like I need this now.

Yeah. How dare I unwind? It's, but also I think whatever works for you. I'm such, and that's why I love when you guys say you don't give advice, because I just, I think there is so much of that on social media, in person, everywhere. It's like, why give your advice to someone? It is not your body. It's not your baby.

What does, what does it matter? Agreed. My mom's a classic for that. It's that generation, yeah. Does she give advice to April? No? Because that... No. Yeah, okay, that's good.

No, no, no. That's good. April would beat her up. Speaking of mums, yours is now living with you. Yes. Similar situation. It's like looking in the mirror. Is it going well?

Do you regret it? Are you loving it? So I was pretty nervous to have mum come and live with us. I think, like, I haven't lived with my mum since I was 18, 19. And it just, the situation was that she had to move out of her place. And she's still looking for a place, but I'm kind of like, like, I don't actually want her to leave. And I did not think that was going to be the case.

I thought maybe give it two weeks, three weeks. She would have found a place. And now I'm just so, I think intergenerational living is a game changer. I know you said earlier. We like want to kick him out to retirement homes. I don't want them in my house. No, but it's just, I think if you have, like Lenny's not in daycare or anything yet, we're trying to get him in bloody daycare, but there's just no.

The beach is hard. Yeah. I'll give you a couple of. numbers. Yeah, right. Under the table. Yeah, yeah, nice. Yeah, but having Lenny full time, and I've never spent probably more than six hours

apart from him. And he's 17 months old or something. So I think just having someone there so that I can have a shower so that I'm not, you know, someone is helping with bath time, I can continue to work. It's just like, I don't know why I hadn't thought about it before. And it's just having a husband who is away a lot. It was hard. How often was he away in those early months?

Oh, his trips are like anywhere four or five days, roughly. So he'll go away, four or five days, he'll come back for a couple and then he'll go again. And so would you be in Brace Position when it was leading up to the moment of him departing? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In those days, in Brace Position. Yeah, for sure. And I think that's the thing.

I lived so much of my life kind of in that time. So when he was home, I was dreading him going away. again. I just feel like it was just constantly awaiting that time. And the worst thing is, when he gets home, he's often flown through the night. Well, actually pretty much all of his flights, he's flown through the night. So he'll get home. And I'm like, at the door. Just like my hair's like, like, you could like pour grease out of it. And I just want to hand him the baby. And he goes, I got to go have a quick nap. And so then I just have to sit out there for like those two hours are the worst. The longest of your life. Yeah. Yeah, just because he's there and

he's still not helping. Yeah. Damn it. Oh, it's tough. I don't know, like, people who do, who have husbands do FIFO and stuff. It's like two, eight, 12-day stints, like on your own. Or people who are just, like, single moms, single dads were just doing it. That's just like, that's the same thing about them.

But yeah, it's tough. Like, to have to do it on your own regardless of the circumstances stuff. Agreed. But I also, it's impossible. It's wild how people look at you and you have. your mom or your dad in the household, they're like, it's like you've invited like a wild animal to live with you. It's like I've got a bear locked in. They're like, but how does everyone survive? How does it work? You're crazy. But I'm like, it's fucking great. I mean, there are times

when my mom tries to parent me still because she can't turn that switch off. Oh, that irritate me. But aside from that, you've got someone else. Does that give Laura the a little bit. I think she finds it... Be careful. I think she finds it funny. I mean, this is a couple of times when... They're at each other.

We're like, oh, well, we're pretty tired. We're going to go to bed. My mom's like, but it's 8.30. Why are we watching a movie guys? We want to fuck, okay? Mom? That's awkward. Yeah, there is that element.

Oh, Matt pins them against each other, don't you? Sometimes. My mum will always pick my side. Really? Oh, that would piss me off. Matt's like, oh, do you see what Laura did? Then she would go to management. Do you see what mum did and then let them have it?

That I can get on board with. It works, though. I think it's free childcare. Can she cook? Very well. Oh, that. I'm coming around. Look how quickly he changes his tune.

I'm coming around. I could never. Wait, is there food? Is there food involved? I'll be there. But you think back to like tribes and stuff. Like, that's what they're aunties, uncles. The village?

Yeah. But I just don't think it was, I don't think that parents are meant to do things completely by themselves. Can I ask? And maybe you don't know the answer to this question. But when you talk about your perception of pregnancy and motherhood and the reality was so different to what you thought it would be like, where does that idea of parenting come from? The one that's not quite right, like the one that's painted as being rainbows and butterflies and it being perfect. is there somewhere that has fed you this lie or is it just is it just like a combination of how it's always being portrayed in media and yeah I think it's how it's always been portrayed I think it's

I actually think people are getting a lot better at talking about the highs and lows I just don't think that my algorithm at the time on social media was seeing those things I was just consistently seeing all the things that I wasn't and even sometimes I'll you know friends of ours came over yesterday they've got a three month old and they are just like loving every second and that's not a lie. They were just like besotted and every little thing that this baby did it was just. That's weird. Yeah. But I'm like, I just see it.

Yeah. And it doesn't make you, it doesn't mean that you love this child any less. It's just I think the thing is you don't really see the mundane stuff on socials or you don't, you don't see your friends doing the mundane stuff. You don't see changing nappies. Like at this at the start, do you remember changing? Well, you would know very recent. And changing, you have to change like 10 nappies a day at the start.

Yeah, no one wants to put the mundane stuff up because it's like, who's going to care about that when in reality everyone would really care. I would really, like since doing this for a job where we do nothing but talk about parenting and shit like that, my algorithm obviously is listening to me. I'm getting fed at all sorts of angles. And sometimes I look at something and I go, someone needs to see that it's not perfect. It's not, I don't love my kid all the time, but their algorithm might not feed them that because they're too busy trying to fabricate this unconditional love all the time

instead of just going, oh, hang on a second, being fucking wrist deep in shit is not, how could I love you for this? Oh, this is so lovely. Like, fucking all. I think it's really hard, though, for people who have some sort of following, and I'm not saying myself, I'm saying just in general, for someone who has a following to get on social media and talk about the hard parts, because there is always going to be someone who has it harder than you.

There's always going to be someone who is doing it tougher than you. I'm very conscious of people who are trying for a baby and this is all they want, which was me at one stage. And then me getting online and complaining about it, like, how dare you? But it's also the reality is a lot of your day is mundane, particularly in that first year. My God, a lot of it is mundane. And a lot of it.

And it's also thankless. Yeah. Thank me. A six-year-old isn't going to be like, thank you so much for that beautiful bottle you just gave me and we're putting me to sleep. Are you guys getting any thank-y-s yet? Does that happen at seven? I make them thank me. No, there's a window when they're like four and five. They're like, thank you. And now when they get a little bit older, they're just like, this is the worst day and I fucking hate you.

I'm like, anything, I'm like, thank me. I'm looking for, I'm looking forward to the first I love you. That's a good one, I reckon. That melts. That does, yeah. That's a, that's a really. really nice booster of your fuel tank. Especially when they can't pronounce it properly. Yeah.

When you start getting that little bits of affection, you're like, oh, it is worth it. Yeah. When Lenny is all grown up and he's no longer living at home, I mean, maybe you'll go back and live with Lenny at some point. I hope so. But in that window where he's not with you, what is the one thing you want Lenny to to remember about the house he grew up in? I love this question that you guys do.

I think I would love to say the obvious, which is like I want him to be. in a house full of laughter. I want him to be having fun, all of those things. And of course, I do want those things. But for me, the biggest thing is I want him to always have a roof over his head. I want him to always feel safe. I want him to never feel like he can't depend on us. I just want the boring things. I want the general just, he feels safe and he feels like he's in a stable home. That's my biggest thing. Because I think a lot of my teenage years, I didn't have that. And that's something that I really, I really want him to feel when he's older. I love that.

It is like at your expense, but it's amazing how beneficial it can be for your children when you want to give them what you didn't have, which sucks for you. But it is so amazing for Lenny to have that. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming in and sharing your journey with us. We appreciate your time. Thank you. And remember, ovulating is important.

Was that the thing? Ovulating is obviously so important. We need t-shirts. Two Doting Dance Podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today.

This episode was recorded on Gatigal Land.