Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #230 Coaching Boys With Tim French

Episode Date: May 31, 2026

Today's guest is an absolute legend when it comes to understanding boys... and judging by this chat, parents too. Tim French is a father of two boys, a teacher, and now a parent educator who's helped countless young men find their feet when they've lost their way. He's seen struggling teenagers become school captains and says the key isn't tougher parenting or stricter rules — it's connection. A common interest, a shared goal, and adults who genuinely care. In this episode, Tim shares practical advice on how to talk to boys in a way that actually gets through, the phrases parents should avoid, and the surprisingly simple moments when kids are most likely to open up. And if you've ever worried about the influence of the manosphere, social media, or where your son is getting his ideas from, this conversation is one you won't want to miss. You can find Tim at www.instagram.com/coachingwithtim  If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Matt, it's no surprise that parenting both girls and boys can be hugely different. I need to apologize as well. Why? Because I have a level of arrogance when I talk about what it's like to parent little boys. And I'm like, oh, thank goodness, I'm not in that category. It's an nightmare. Save me from this nightmare. Those little fuckers? I know.

I love young men. Sorry? Let's leave that in there for these. I think it is a huge privilege to parent both boys and girls. I do have one of each. Thank you for pointing that out. It is a privilege. We do joke about the fact that little boys are a little bit trickier to parent.

And when we make that joke, it comes from a very happy place. Yeah, I did say painful at one point. But that's with love. It's so painful how much I love my son. That sounded sarcastic. It's not. But I think, and Ash, you would know this, but sometimes you do have to parent young men differently compared to girls.

Can I ask you a question? Yes. Do you ever get nervous about, about Oscar. He's a great, great child, but do you ever get worried about Oscar growing up if he gets involved in the wrong groups if he does go down the root of having, say, unhealthy masculinity? Yeah, it does worry me a lot, actually, especially because it's at their fingertips. Like, all that shit is at their fingertips. And I would like to think that Oscar could mirror his behaviours more around what I'm like and how I treat his mom and how I treat his sister

instead of how some of these knobheads on the internet actually treat women. And it does get a shit out of me, to be honest. Well, there are people out there like coaching with Tim, who is today's guest, who works specifically in the area of raising young boys in a way where they turn out to be exceptional young men. Yeah, there's something in this chat about shared purpose that just hit a nerve with me because it reminds me so much of my childhood and the fact that school is not a one-size fit all for learning. and I feel like the learning wasn't tailored to me, so I just was not interested at all.

Well, Tim is a father of two boys, a teacher. I think he was a deputy principal, I believe. Oi, he was the big dog for a bit there. He still is the big dog in my eyes. Sorry, Tim, if you're listening, you're on a big dog, best I'm sorry. That's healthy. But he does so much important work, sharing the message of how to raise healthy young men.

And if you, like me, I worried about your sweet little Kelpie boy turning to the manosphere, then fear no more. Because Tim has a lot of lessons, and he also has a lot of experience of how he's helped a lot of young men navigate life, which is always the hardest thing to do. And you know, as a father to three young girls,

I actually found a lot of the lessons still applied to how I parent them. So it's a great chat. I hope you enjoy. Welcome back to three doting dads. I am Maddie J. I'm Ash. And I'm Tim.

And this is a podcast that happens to be all about parenting. And is the good, it is the bad. And they're relatable. Have you come for advice. Good news. We have Tim. We have Tim. We have Tim.

But we will not give you any advice. Can I, I wasn't sure if you were trying to like withhold your last name online. No. Okay. No, definitely not. Just didn't really have, like, it's kind of boring. My name's Tim French. It's pretty simple.

Not really a catch. French. French. F-R-E-N-C-H. I didn't know. I was like, I don't want to docks him. Like, it's Tim from 14, Pineapple Avenue. No.

I don't know. I probably should actually now just change it back so that it makes me sense. No, no, no, don't worry about it. No, don't worry about it. Fun fact, this is the first ever guest episode that's going to be on YouTube. Oh, wicked. Exciting. And it's also my first ever podcast. So many first. What else can we celebrate? Should we? Oh, no. What else have we got? Tim, I do want to say thank you because before coming here last night, you had a post on your Instagram. And I think you referenced us as one of the country's top parenting podcasts. Yeah. Definitely are in my book. I think the one. way that you guys have a such genuine, authentic approach to life really comes across. And I think

in a world where we kind of get judged for every decision, the way that you guys put across some pretty good nuggets of information is a real relief to parents out there. Thank you. And that's all we've got time for. Also, information? I read it. And I was like, oh, fuck, who's Tim going to record me? Where's he going? Is he double booked? There was like one person who was like, I. I think it might be two dirty dads. It was me.

Everyone was like, what about all these other podcasts that are crap? Okay? This is the best one. Absolutely. God help the country of where at the top. We're the pioneers. Anyway, that's because we sabotaged all the other ones, but that's... That's another story.

That's another story. We usually start these episodes with asking, do you recall the most trouble you got in as a child? Big exhale there? I'm the second child. So I personally think the second child was sent. to really test their parents because they think you think you kind of got it nailed after you've done the first one you've got a couple of years under your belt you start thinking oh this parenting

thing's pretty easy and then i came along so i'm lucky enough to have a brother that forged the path for me and who is a great human and was a really good role model for me and then i probably did everything opposite to him so my biggest trouble happened to me in year six mom and dad uprooted the family we moved out of wongong up to the northern river so we moved to baller so just near byron where you guys have been beautiful place of the world? Top spot. So we moved into a new, it was about 15Ks out of town, a little acreage estate.

So great little public school. I think it was 120 kids, whole school. Wow. So I've jumped into a year five, six composite class, trying to fit in. And naturally, we caught the bus to school. And some of the other boys on the bus are throwing fruit out of the windows into oncoming cars. So as you do. That's not dangerous.

Not dangerous at all. And not commending this to anybody. Should we do it after this? It'd be fine. We'll go out. Naturally, I got caught up into it, stole some fruit from home, which ironically dad had grown in a veggie patch. Pretty proud of it.

Oh no. Yeah, so add that to it. Not the homegrown fruit. It's like, what the fuck of my apple's gone? Honestly, on the front windscreen of a van. So I've thrown some fruit out of the bus window just now in hindsight, like just trying to fit in. But one of the girls that happened to catch the bus was the SRC-year-6 captain.

Snitch. Absolute snitch. S-R-C. So student representative counsel. So kind of like... Oscar was SRC last year. Snitch? Yeah.

Stupid knock. So she threatened that she was going to dobb us in. And so I was petrified. So instead of actually just waiting it out, knowing that she probably never would, I just walked straight into the principal's office, just threw myself under the bus, literally. It was me! And just went, I did it. And he was like, what are you talking about it?

And he's like, what? He had no information. So then I had to actually recreate the story and tell him what I'd done. Bit of pre-context, when we moved from Wollongong, my primary school journey was pretty loose. I was only there for break times, didn't really engage with the content. Every parent teacher, the teachers are like, yeah, Tim comes from playtime, that's about it. Like, we can't really get him to do much in the classroom. Until year five, year five had Ron Tunstool, great bloke, got me into education and we'll talk more about Ron later.

But I remember specifically asking mum and dad for a Fubu track suit. So I'm not sure if I'm taking your boys back down memory lane. It was pretty similar to the... Pretty gangster. Yeah, well, it was pretty gangster. And I think that was probably the last alarm bell. Mom and Dad went, this boy needs a change. So we uprooted, moved up to the...

For anyone who doesn't know what Fubu is, if you're in, like, the rap street scene... Wootang Clan, not an error. It's a British version, but what's his name? Boo Boo Boo. Bufu. By us, fuck you. How am? Allie G. Allie G.

Allie, it's like... Yeah, it wasn't great. And so we've moved to this new place and then Mom and Dad get the phone. call from the school that I'm launching fruit out of the bus window. In a Fubu Tracksuit. Yeah. To be clear, no Fubu Tracksuit was worn or harmed. Damn it.

But I got an in-school suspension, had to work with the groundskeeper for a bit. And it actually, looking back, it was probably a bit of a defining moment for my journey then at that school. Because I really had to kind of turn it around. Because I'd mucked around most of primary school. I remember Mrs. Whitehead, the year six teacher at the new school was like, oh, Tim, you would have learned this at your old school. And I was like, nah, never touched it.

She was like, really? I'm pretty sure it's covered in like years two and four. And we're in year six now. I'm pretty sure it wasn't. I don't remember. I was learning that. So I got in a whole bunch of trouble. I knew you were in trouble with dad when dad went quiet. And it was like I got the silent treatment for like a good week.

And we were doing the gold rush, which is commonly studied in year six. And it was probably about day seven or eight of me to spend in absolute hot water. And I was trying to build a sieve because we had to build an object to take in from the gold rush. And dad's pretty handy. So in he comes into the shed. And I've got his tools absolutely everywhere. and he starts helping me build this thing. And we kind of patched the relationship

and happened to be like two weeks later. I got a positive phone call home. And it was like, it seems okay. It's going to be okay. Like, moms are going to be okay. Like,

the phones have gone out around the community that he's going to be okay. He's not a piece of shit. Yeah. He's going to be fine. So that's like, honestly, that was probably it.

And in high school, I was pretty well behaved. I think I got most of it out of my system in primary school. So to any primary school parent out there whose sons absolutely. off the walls, I kind of made it through the back end in high school. It's probably a bit of a dream for mum and dad. I got it all out of my system. Very good. One

simple piece of fruit and another cuts. No, you threw yourself under the bath. You dopped yourself in that. I mean, that shows character immediately, I suppose. You could have easily just been like, ah, you know, if it comes around, it comes around. So why did you want to become a teacher then? Good question. And so I always wanted to play sport.

Played footy growing up. Was never going to be good enough to play an REL. Do you mind if I ask AFL, league? League. League. league. So again, my brother, two years old than me, great role model. He was doing PE teaching at uni. So I was like, that's actually not a bad way. I get paid to kick a footy and hang out with kids. So always had like a bit of a coaching background in terms of like coaching younger footy teams and helping out around the place. So fell into teaching.

And I had really good PE teachers going through high school. I went back to Ballinah High School to do my last prac placement with the PE teachers that I had through school, which was kind of surreal because you go to call them by their last name. I remember Ross Buchanan saying, if you call me Mr. Buchanan all the time, I'm going to fail you. It's like, what are you doing here? You conditioned me for seven years to call you this and now I can't. I know. Yeah. So, fell into teaching that way.

And that's how I started as a PE teacher. So how long were you teacher for? I'm still a teacher. Still teacher? I'm still a teacher. So up until three weeks ago, I've been in educational leadership, so leading wellbeing, director of wellbeing, assistant principal of behaviour management, if you will.

In Canberra, I managed 23 schools, and the most complex behavioural needs cases out of those schools were referred to the team and I that we looked after. So having seen patterns of behaviour over time across multiple states, kind of gave me the ammunition I needed to really start this work. And when you say this work, helping young men. Yep. I'll jump back a little bit to how I got right into this deep work. So in Canberra, I was lucky enough to be head of student engagement at the biggest state school in Canberra.

What I did was, and I can't believe that I actually pitched this at the time to the senior leadership was I asked for every boy at a year nine and 10 to be in a boy's leadership program. And it wasn't for the boys that were going to be your next school captain. It was for boys that actually needed leadership. So I remember ringing a good friend of mine, Dr. Ann Thompson, who's big in the education space, and running through my pitch and he said, mate, what school leadership wouldn't take you up on this? Like, you're asking for all of these knuckleheads to be in one class and to take them out of the other classes where they're causing disruption. And I was like, yeah, actually, when you put it that way, why am I doing this? We created the boys program. We called

it the Avengers. And the reason that we got to the Avengers and we weren't copyrighted was Because every one of the lads brought a different skill set. And so when we collectively came together, and if you boys can cast your mind back to Mighty Ducks, Coach Carter, remember the Titans, it was pretty much pulling on all that knowledge and putting it into this group of 24 young men across year 9 and 10 who had been told they weren't graduating school because of their grades.

The second iteration of that program, we had 100% graduation. And the three young men that were, with the school leaders came out of that program. Wow. They also won every ACT education award that they possibly could that they were eligible for after they came through that program. Now, I'm not some superhuman teacher that just wrote this ridiculous curriculum.

What we did was we came up with a singular purpose and we gave the boys another home inside the school. And it wasn't a physical space. It was something to belong to because something that boys need is a purpose and a shared mission. And so once they collectively came together and what we used to do was if we were all in the same class and Ash was being a bonehead and we all got in trouble figured I went to you for the example. You notice I didn't go to Maddie for that. I feel judged. That's fine. And so we would collectively do like consequential work and actually we looped that into fitness. So because we also

played a game. We played Gaelic footy. So it was a sport that none of them had played before but we had soccer boys, we had AFL boys, we had league boys. We're like, let's play Gaelic footy because no one's good at it. So we don't have an alpha top dog out of the gate. I would have been. Naturally, you would have been. Yeah. Actually, that's the alpha.

Yeah, probably, but we would do, like, consequences. So whether it was more fitness activities and, you know, we weren't making them run miles. But essentially, there was a shared purpose. And if you were being a bonehead, it was up to Maddie and I then in class, I was like, oh, you don't do that because you know we're going to have to do this. Or we're going to have to share with the group why we let you do that. And so that bystanding behavior. So we created a positive culture around actually pushing ourselves to be better.

And on the back of the boys' jerseys, they actually came up with the hashtag was hashtag be better. And so it takes us back, but that program is still in effect today. And I haven't been at that school since 2016. Wow. And now we get the phone calls from the boys at their weddings and it's the late night, face times. And they're like, you guys change their life. And you're like, yeah, did we really? And then in the moment, you kind of think, what the hell are we doing?

Like, we'd have locked door conversations about what have we done? Like, what have we created here? And so to get that feedback, because as a teacher, you rarely see the fruits of your labour, right? If you're a carpenter, you knock up a house, you stand back, have a look at it. I built that. Yeah, great job, right? You drive around and tell you what. Hope it doesn't fall down.

Right? But as a teacher, you don't get that until it's 20 years later or 10 years later and you bump into them somewhere else and they're like, hey, you know when you told me this sentence and you're like, not a chance? But they do. And so we are now getting that back and there was brothers starting to go through the iteration of the program. So that work is what made the biggest difference in boys. And so that obviously set me up for my journey for the last 10 years. When you look at those boys as a collective,

and I'm assuming that you would go into some detail about their environments outside of home, was there any common denominator of saying, well, this is missing from their life, which is why they went on a projectory to be not so good. Yeah, look, it was a real mix. We had, we had gents in the program that they didn't have a dad at home or mum might have been in prison. Like it was a real mix. And so when I worked across the ACT director at across 23 schools, we had about 200 students on our caseload. One of the important factors out of that caseload that I noticed with every young men, not one of them played a team sport, which was pretty wild. And so out of all the kids that got referred for complex behaviour to our unit, not one of those kids actually played a team sport, which is

pretty, it was pretty eye-opening to me. And obviously I've got a sports background and find a bit of a home in different sports places. Did that surprise you? It really did because I've always trusted sport and understood sport and, you know, known the impact that a coach can have or just to another community and there's other parents around and you start to get like a bit of a culture. The sense of belonging to, like you're all the same. Like, we both during our school years would have played team sport. Every single sport. Every chance I could. My dream was to be a professional athlete and I just wasn't good enough so I played everything hoping that I would find the one that I was good at. But even though kids that had like maybe the kids that played tennis, okay, they would have

a tennis team still. There's a crew, right? Yeah. But even though they would still be like, oh, you guys are playing soccer at lunch, I want to play team sport. You know, like, you know, it's, you're saying that I'm like, oh yeah, unless they just weren't, you know, they had something else that they were doing. But yeah, wow. But a shared purpose and a sense of belonging will get you a heck of a long way with a teenage boy. Yeah, right. Because otherwise, we're pretty egocentric. If we don't have a vision and a bit of a purpose, we kind of just float and then we drift, and when we drift, we tend to drift into things we shouldn't. And then that starts to snowball. So that collective purpose and actually, I remember the first time they all jelled together

and they were so excited that they'd all came together. And we were petrified because it's like we created a gang. We were like, far out. They've all come together, which is what we wanted. And we'd worked so hard for and we're like, oh, oh. Oh, oh. Now if they turn on us, we're gone. So then we created a leadership group within inside the program. And so then there was four young men in that program that were essentially elders, if you will, and they were in the year 10, and they had different roles inside the group. And if there was disagreements, you went to them, and then they came through us.

And so then we created a hierarchy because we're really good at understanding that as well. As men, we kind of understand there's a chain of command, and sometimes we don't like it, but there often is, right? And so for a young man to understand that and know that they serve a place and their background is irrelevant, and it's just who they are in the moment with those group of young men, the first time we took them away, and this was kind of like, we kind of coined it like a preseason camp. We went down to Kangaroo Valley, which is down the South Coast. We put them in canoes. We made them pack food for three days. We took a massive bunch of two minutes, it was just in case. Part of the theory work was design your, your medieval plan. And you know,

they're talking like fillet steaks and stuff. I'm like, you do you. We don't. We don't. Okay. Oreos. You've got to have Uber Eats out there. No. And so jammed in a canoe, paddled 14Ks into an island, and it was Lord of the Flies for three days. And that was the coming together.

And so the first night, there was fill at stakes. It was all stuff going on. And then by day three, they're sort of dipping Penae into pasta sauce in a raw. Right. There's nothing left. And so I often talk about letting them struggle

and understanding that that's what builds resilience, right? One of the boys forgot a sleeping back. And it wasn't until night three that he actually came and said, I forgot my sleeping bag. I'm like, dude, we've had spare ones here the whole time. It's like simple things about if you were to ask for help, like you would have been cozy, right? Yeah. And so ways in which we try and encourage young men to seek help, it's not always the big conversations. Starts with the small stuff first.

Because if you can ask for it in the small times, it makes it that little bit easier when you're like really struggling, right? And then you're seeking out. But that was some of the forming understandings of the way in which I understand now what really works for young men and that challenged by choice but also being a part of something bigger than myself gives me that sort of second spur yeah there's two things there the first one you said about them having a purpose i've got a boy and a girl my boy is the oldest he's six turning seven to name's oscar and he is non-stop and i complained about it a lot but you mentioned there that like a purpose his purpose is to continue moving because i notice when he's not

moving he's doing the wrong thing and then also as well, the asking for help, he's so determined to do things on his own. Yeah. And I never thought about it, like you just put it as something small to ask for help. But, you know, instead of just like maybe saying, don't ask me the big things, ask me help for the small things. Do you think that that's something that me as a parent of a boy can do to try and lead them in the right direction for asking for help when it comes to those bigger things?

I think definitely role modeling it as well. Okay. I think sometimes that we forget as parents, like I often talk out aloud and I'm partly crazy as well, but I try and talk through my thought process sometimes when I'm around my boys after how did I get to this point, right? And so some of the work that we did with those young men was sat him down. We had honest and raw conversations. And I was like, there's going to be times when you absolutely hate me. You are not going to like the decisions I make. You're going to think I'm an absolute ass, but I need you, and we're having this conversation when everything's going

well, to understand where I'm coming from and what that place is for you. Because when we sit down like this and we've got your folks on the other side of the table and we're talking about your enrollment in this program and what your decisions have gotten to this point, I need you to understand that I still love you, I still care for you, but I'm holding you accountable to your choices. And we've put these things in place to get you there. So looping back, getting them to seek help sooner. And it's small stuff. But I've got a nine-year-old as well.

And he just tries to do everything by himself. Yeah. Right? And it's like, I'll come into the kitchen. And he's got a stool. He's on the bench. He's got both cupboard doors up over the stove to get the batteries out. And whilst I love it, because it's like,

perfect problem solver the world needs more problem solvers but if you fell into the stove we've got a different conversation i know there's so many things that oscar will do and i do love it when he tries to do something like that especially when he's doing to help his sister too yeah that's cool and something most of the time always happens and he hurts himself or something because he's like i can do this yeah and then i'm like just ask for help because he wants to show that he can do it but also as well like you're right maybe i need to show him a little bit more that i ask for help a lot yeah um which i don't think he would think that. He would just think that I would know everything. Yeah, well, very wrong.

You're Superman. Thank you. Right. All right, we'll cut it there. It's a good episode. In their eyes at those young formative ages, so from like zero to five, and moms usually take the cake in this space

and not push an agenda or anything like that, but if you listen to Steve Bedouf is kind of the OG in the boy space, zero to five, mum or the primary parent carer in that arrangement is the main voice of reason. Yeah. Dads, we kind of get this window for, from 5 to 12 with boys, where we get a bit of a say in how they're going to form. Now, in real reality, what we say literally doesn't really break the skin on who they're going to be.

It's the community we build around them. And so after 12, they kind of shut down listening to their parents and they start to listen to outside voices. So that's when you'd be really selective as a parent on who you're building in that community around your young person. So now the bigger player we've got to come into that space is the online space. Where when I was going through school, I didn't have to worry about that. I'm so grateful to get through school with a dumb phone. Yeah. But I didn't have to navigate teenage years with that.

We had like, all we had was like rotten.com. And it was like, that was it. We didn't have like. No, 90-303-10. With dial-up internet where the computer was in a living room. Get out of the phone! Like that sort of shit like that. And it's like now I know it's early doors for Oscar and maybe like his online's, you know, presence.

But if it's like this now, Like, well, in 10 years time, it's going to scare the shit out of me. Yeah. And so the work that you do now, you'll get ROI on that at the back end. Sometimes I see the way Oscar talks to Macy, how I've spoken to him when potentially he's done something wrong. Is there anything I can do to maybe shift that so that he starts to maybe talk to her a little bit differently?

I think you've done the heaviest lifting part that you'll ever need to do as a parent, mate, in the way that you have worked on yourself. And I genuinely mean this. Thank you. The way that you've changed the way you go about things will actually change the way they parent. Went down the track. Yeah. And that's when I was getting emotional on the plane because sometimes we forget that work.

If you think about the way you might have parented in younger years as a dad, you'll either do it the exact same way your parents did it or you be like, I'm not doing anything they did because they sucked at it. I'm doing it this way. And I guess the first question that I often ask my clients that want to work with me because I do do this with families, they'll say, Tim, we need you help. We've got a teenage son. the rails, I need you to fix him. I'm like, starters, it's not a renovator's delight. We didn't just pick him up. Like, we're not going to flip in.

It's a real fixer rubber. It's a fix rubber at home. The bones are good. The bones are great. The foundation's there, but we're just going to rough around the edges. It's got a bit of mold. We can clean that off. It's, what are you prepared to change?

Yeah. Right? Because if you're not prepared to change, I can work with your young person. I can see them 45 minutes, twice a week, once a week, whatever you want. But if we're not going to change, how we all approach things, we're not going to move the needle. What's your process then? If you've got a case, how do you start to go through your checklist to see where the problem

is and how you can start fixing it? Yeah, cool, good point. I've got an amazing client and an amazing young person that I work with. And the first started, both the parents reached out to me. So separated house, but mom and dad, they tick every box of co-parenting that could ever exist to the point where after the first call, I said, guys, I'm not going to take your money. You guys are doing absolutely everything I would recommend for you to do as someone who's co-parenting a 12-year-old boy because you're doing a phenomenal job. Take a deep breath,

pour a glass of wine. You don't need me in your life. You're doing everything. And then it was about a week later that I were like, hey, would you mind talking to our son? And I was like, absolutely. So I meet with their son once a week. We unpack challenges talking about shared purpose and understanding and having a bigger goal. We just had some term one goals for him at school. We had three big ones. He achieved all three. So one was 100% attendance, hadn't been attending super well. 100% attendance for the term. Absolutely crushed it. The other one was to pick up an award at school in some aspect, which was a massive goal. Smash that one. And the third one was he was doing a creative project outside of school. And why is that important? Why is it important as a foundation

to have those simple goals as a first step? I feel like I want to do all three. that. Absolutely legend. And it's the heart of my way. I'm lucky. I get to do this multiple times a week, right? And seeing a young person find purpose in stuff that they're interested in, and it's often really cute, but they'll attribute it to me. And it's like, no, mate, you're sitting in the mud doing the heavy lifting, working on emotional regulation at 8, 9, 17. And I've got people in my life that are 40, 45 that are too scared to sit there. And so to see you do it at such a young age and see the impact it's having on your life, I'm the one that's inspired. I leave the call on an absolute height. But to go back to your point, Maddie, is actually have a conversation with

them. And I take the pressure off. I'm not here to tell you how to live your life. You've got enough people in your life probably trying to tell you how to do it. And I kind of sit there almost like a big brother, if you will. And a lot of the young people I work with don't have people close in age in that fill that spot. And I was super lucky because my brother was the ultimate. So I've kind of had that nurturing experience all the way through. And kids will share a heck of a lot if you give them a platform where they feel safe, feel like they're not going to be judged. And some of the things they're thinking about makes me look silly.

And I'll be like, I haven't even comprehended that. And you guys got it on lock. And so then I just work through a framework. We get to a certain point where we establish them. I keep them really simple because I kind of want them to achieve them, right? Because then it's like the snowball effect. Yeah. All right.

But it's more about, it's not who I want them to sort of like, what outcomes do you want to get? I'm like, who do you want to be? Because I work a lot with kids in 11 and 12 and boys. And what's the first question that a person in year 12 gets asked by like any relative or anyone in their family? Job. Yeah.

What are you going to do when you finish school? I'll be finished. Yeah. Exactly, right? And so they're ready to just like rage out. Because they don't know. And fair cop. I still don't know what I'll have a question.

It's such a loaded question. And look, not to shit on the previous generation. It is a loaded question for them to have their say of what they think that you should fucking do. Yeah. Well, because they did it for four. 45 years. Right.

Exactly, right. They wouldn't change it. And so I start with, well, actually, what sort of person do you want to be? And let's backwards map it. And then we'll go from that aspect, right? So we'll see what sort of person you want to be and we'll work on those skill sets. And then what you find is over a period of like two or three weeks or even a month, they start to then find out more about themselves and then who they want to be.

And then that leads to a job and all that sort of stuff comes undone. But parents seemingly have this pressure that their kid needs to have it all locked in by the end of year 12. It's like, it's not the game anymore. it's changed. Oh, yeah. Like, this generation will have between, like the ones coming through finishing year 12 now, we'll have seven to nine different career paths.

Yeah. So the days are gone. Hey, look as you got. Yeah, about 10 different jobs. Yeah. That I can think that I can remember. Yeah. And probably another five more.

Yeah. It's just changed. You don't become a boiler maker and stay a boiler maker now for 45 years and get a gold watch and hang your boots up and, you know, live your life. Yeah. So the decision isn't as, not that I'm saying, it's not as important, but it's not as waited because you can pivot, you can grab some skills, you can then go to a different industry. There's a lot more flexibility, but that's breaking some generational thinking around where do we need

to go. We always hear how important communication is with our children. And in your opinion, what is one of the most important windows to communicate with your child? One of the best ones you can do is car ride conversations. So shoulder to shoulder, you're not face to face, so it's non-threatening. After school can be tricky, so know your young person, they'll either love it or hate it, but generally driving is a great one. for a walk. Again, moving forward, there's something to do with the brain and walking forward that boys tend to like, so you'll get more honest, open conversation, kicking a footy, low-impact physical tasks. So shooting a three-throw, mucking around like that, you'll get way more

conversation than if you sit down face-to-face and try and have a serious chat. Why is that bit of movement so important, do you think? Boys learn through doing rather than being talked at and they'll feel more comfortable, forget that you're having a serious conversation and then just over-share with you. Don't tell him I said that. That's a secret. That's a secret. But it's so true.

Like whenever I'm like, Oscar and I like play basketball out the back sometimes and yeah, I feel like he's much more vocal about things. Even if it's like in passing. Yeah, it doesn't even have to be like serious. But if you want to communicate with your young person, especially in the boys, and I'm sure it works for girls too, Matt. But it's that disconnect from the serious part of a conversation and that open, free-flowing just happens when you're moving,

which is ironic because I do most of my work face-to-face. Shoulder-to-shoulder is great because it's non-threatening. So if you actually go back to like the biology, face-to-face is pretty awkward and threatening. When you're not there, it's a lot more free-flowing and moving, especially for a teenage boy. Works a lot. I used to like going on dates and going for a walk.

High success, right? That's why it seemed to work. Okay. A little nugget in there? Yeah, nice. Well, going back to the case study, where you have step one, three goals. How do you then build on that?

What's step two and step three? Yeah, cool, great point. We try to do a short-term, medium-term, long-term. So you've got one that's going to carry over. So obviously our 100% attendance. We want that for the year, right? So that's our long yard stick. And for someone that's not attending school a lot,

that's a big number, right? And so that one's hanging in the background. We've done our short-term goal, which was to pick up the award, and we're pretty much nearly completed the creative project. And so then we just keep refining it and we keep adopting it. Okay, we built a book. All right, now let's make it into a mini movie or whatever the case may be.

I let them drive that part. And then I just hold down the framework of keeping them in concrete steps so that they don't get too big that they won't actually be able to do it. Because then what happens then is we often extend young people too far and the barrier to entry on the next time is too high. And we won't re-engage back with it because we're like, nah, tried it, sucked at it, not doing it. Right.

And so then we get shut down. So general mainstream schooling isn't traditionally built for boys that like to move a lot. So when you're sitting on the floor consistently for long periods of time, it's not how our brains work. Because boys learn more through doing rather than being talked at. And so we need to shift the thinking and education around, okay, if we've got so many young people falling out in the back end of it, maybe we need to start with the question at the front of what's working and what needs to change. because for me, like I'm passionate about changing the way in which we educate boys. So part of my work is I also am super lucky that I get to fly around and talk to teachers

and run workshops on how to re-engage boys in the classroom better. Because instead of talking about Shakespeare with 17, 18-year-old boys, why can't they write the difference of putting 35-inch tires on their high-lux or 33? Right? If we're teaching language structure and sort of effects of writing, you can write it about something that they're bloody interested in. Yeah. Instead of some bloke that, like,

lived, and no, no offense to any of your Shakespeare listeners. How dare you? I doff not care. How dare thee? How dare thee? Is that right? What's that? I don't even know, but it sounded good.

Thy speaketh the truthus of, okay. But yeah, it's just, it needs to shift in a big way, for me personally anyway. When you take on kids that potentially have ADHD, especially I'm diagnosed, I didn't get diagnosed until I was 35, much like you. Yeah. Because, I mean, back when we were at school, it wasn't a thing. It was there.

I don't want to belittle it because it was a thing. And it was sort of like a bit of a stigma around it. It was. But now it's, which is great, it's so, you know, up the front. Yeah, it is. What's your different approach when you come across a kid that you're like, okay, well, he's got ADHD. Yeah. Our brains work differently.

What's your approach with that? Yeah, good question. And one of the things in which I can relate to this so well, right, because it's me. The irony is, and I've got to find a different way of doing it, because my work's all online. I hate doing face to face, right? But the reality is that when you're talking to a kid in Austin, Texas, at 4 a.m. our time, and it's like 1 o'clock their time in the afternoon,

you've got to make it work, right? Yeah. So when I'm working with those kids, I totally don't care if I don't see them. They've got AirPods, and they're going for a walk, right? And I'll go for a walk too. But in terms of the way we structure it, it's just we keep it as simple as possible. Because I don't know, if you're anything like me, I like really simple, effective solutions that I can kind of put on autopilot

and that doesn't require me to think about it too much. And there's a way bigger chance of me being consistent with it. So it's not that we lower the standard and increase the consistency. We still have the things that we're trying to achieve. We just chunk it down differently. Yeah, because you mentioned before if the goal is too... Oh, it's too big. And your and my brain would be the same.

We're like, oh, no, fuck that. Yeah, I'm not doing it. But as soon as someone breaks it down into those small and manageable chunks, our brain goes that we tick, right? Yeah. And then because then we get the dopamine hit, right? Because we do chunk one. Oh, cool.

We did it. We did what we should have done. Exactly. And then we keep moving through it. So whilst, you know, people like Maddie might be able to just go, yeah, bang, there's a full thing. I've got to do all of those things. And off Iran's, I'm like, yeah, too much there.

Oh, we'll be bored for the next bit. Let their cortisol build right up until, like, I booked my flights to come here last night. Actually, sorry, my wife booked them for me because I'd left it so long. So thank you. Because the pressure wasn't enough. I was like, I got plenty of time. Yeah, plenty of time. And it's like, ooh, deadline.

bang, let's go, and I was motivated to get it done. But small bite-sized chunks, and it's, again, I want people to hear me, it's not about lowering the standard. It really isn't. It's about scaffolding in a way that it suits the person you're working with. Yeah. Because if we're not teaching to the students that we've got or the young people in our lives and you're a granddad and you're working with your grandson or you're an uncle and you're working with your nephew or whatever it is, we all play a role. And I'm so excited and I get so annoyed every time I turn the news on and there's a massive outcry of what, you know, blokes are doing wrong or men are doing wrong.

Because the young people and the people that I get to meet and interact with on the daily fills me. There's so much hope around the good young men that are coming through. And there are role models in our community. And I encourage anyone that plays that role, even how little they think it is, take it seriously. Like, you've got a really good opportunity with that. And don't overcook it.

Like, you don't want it to be, you know, not organic and buzzword. But you want it to be genuine, right? And so don't underestimate the power of your small words. Yeah. Like, because they really do land sometimes to a young person or I've worked at a school recently and it's a different type of education. So it's not mainstream education. It's only from years 10, 11 and 12.

And we get boys in year 11 getting their first ever school award. Wow. Right? And because they're finally at a place that suits their learning style. They might have had rubbish attendance at a traditional high school. They've moved into a different learning environment. they come every day. The parents are like,

what the heck you're doing to them? They come every day. They're engaged in what they're doing. They can see relevance, because we're not learning Shakespeare, they can see relevance of what they're doing, where they're going to apply it in the real world. But that award still goes on the fridge.

And you can't tell me there's a little eight-year-old or a little nine-year-old, and they're going, yeah, damn right, I did. I got that. Yeah. And so it still has an impact. And sometimes we think when they're a bit older, a bit more rambunctious that we go,

oh, they don't really care. you can still help them out with single sentence. And so don't always put that through to an attribute, though. Yeah, okay. They've got to have actually earned the compliment that you're giving them. Because if you just give them some surface level stuff, they know you're just doing it to be nice. Yeah.

And they also know that it's just BS. Yeah. So they've got to have earned it. If they haven't earned it, don't give it. Talk about something different. We know language is so important. What are some of the types of language that we shouldn't be using with young men? Yeah, good one.

I get a bit of flack in my comment from sort of, I don't want to say middle age, because I'm probably pretty close there myself, I guess. But from an older male generation about some of the ways in which I convey some ideas around how you can potentially, and in all my channel, I'm not telling you how to do it. I'm just showing you examples of what I've seen anecdotally over 15 years in the space of what works, and I've seen it from prep through to the end of year 12. So I've got a pretty good lens of understanding of what works and what doesn't work. and the parents that I've sat across from in parent meetings

and understanding what styles they use at home as well. So I've kind of had that inside information. One that I hate, man up. Why do you hate that? I hate it so much because for me, a real man in terms of we talk about healthy masculinity and all those buzzwords that are going around, for me it's about if you can share what's going on for you,

but you're still working through it. Or you might actually need to go and see a mental health provider and admitting that you're going to do it and actually following through on that, that's way tougher to me than other stuff that goes on in society. And for me, it's like if you're not in a position where you can admit that, maybe then that's a reflection piece. And I know when I first went to therapy 35 went in,

I parked next door at the KDM dealership. And the first four sessions I spent with the lady that helps me. And I originally went for anxiety and left with ADHD. And I was like, surprise. Two for one. The first four sessions, I was convincing her why I didn't need to be there. And I still was like, no, I'm parking next door

because I don't want anyone to see my truck in the front, right? And it's like, why am I doing that? I'm like, I work in the space. What was your fear? Why were you so afraid of acknowledging that you needed help? I think it was probably because you kind of get conditioned that you just got to figure it all out and white-knuckle it, right? And so as a young person, you just try and sort stuff out.

And as a young boy, you just take care of stuff. And then I got to the point where I was like, I'm 35 years old. If I was going to fix this thing on my own, I would have been able to do it by now. Right. Like, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm pretty handy in this sort of space.

And I was like, I would have fixed it. And I was projecting anxiety onto my young people. And that was really confronting. So you talked about an example before where Oscar was talking amazing. You could see yourself, right? I could see in my kids, then, like, assessing a situation the same way my brain would. And mine's a little bit different because my whole world's been around

risk assessments and keeping kids alive while you've got them in really wild situations. But my brain does that 24-7 the whole time. And that was going on to my young people. And the first time I really noticed that was like a kick in the gut. And I was like, I'm okay for me to deal with it, but I don't want them dealing with, like, I'm bleeding on people that didn't cut me, right? So I had to then go and assess that for myself. But yeah, the first four sessions, I remember ringing up the clinic and I was like, hey, I need help, got super out bad anxiety. And they've got all their lovely profiles on their website, right? And you get to pick one. And they're like, who do you want? And I was like, I don't care. I want your guru on anxiety. I just want to go on. Like, yep,

sweet. I'm expecting to open the door and like Gandalf be there with like this big wizard stick. Was he not there? He was not there. Damn. I was pretty annoyed. What was on the other side was a relatively young female that was just an absolute weapon at what she did. And I was just the first thought was like, oh my God, I'm about to go and tell my life problems to this amazing human. And that was one of the bigger hurdles for me. I'm sitting there playing with like a sparkly cushion. And you're like, if any of the boys saw me like this.

And then in retrospect, I've got to a point now where my circle, instead of that being an issue, is like, yeah, good on you, mate. That's perfect. Yeah. You should be doing that. Like you've got a responsibility to your family to take care of yourself. Yeah. And so you can't parent from a dysregulated pattern.

And so if you're not prepared to do the work, then, that's probably where you need to start, right? It's such like a, it feels like kicking a goal when a good mate rings you and says, hey, I want to see someone what's my first step. And I'm like, like, Miles rang me out, who's the most toxic man alive. I love him to death. He's an enormous human. Like, he's the type of person who looks like he could kill a bear with his bare hands.

Yeah, exactly right. And he rang me and he was like, hey, I'm battling with what was going on with an ex of his. He was like, should I see a therapist and what do I do? I said you should absolutely see a therapist regardless and this is what you need to do. And like two days later he was like, fuck, I'm so glad I did that.

Wanted to do it 10 years ago. And it made me feel like, okay, well, if I can influence my friends, then maybe, yeah, I can influence my kid a little bit more

and hopefully he can be emotionally intelligent. Yeah. Growing up, because at the end of the day, like all of this sort of stuff where you're like, man art, man art,

like, not you, like, you're getting those comments. Yeah. That person's just essentially emotionally immature. Absolutely. And all of,

you know, the swing can be so massive if we just teach our boys that you're allowed to ask for help, you're allowed to, you know, you're allowed to, you're allowed to, you're allowed to, you're allowed to feel something because that's this, I have so many mates that were told that just a man up, you can't feel a thing who would be ashamed to cry in front of me. And it's like, that's just fucked up. 100%. Like, I'd rather have someone ring me at 3am in the morning and need me to sit there for an hour and I'd sit in the mud with them so that they're not one of the seven men that take their lives in Australia every single day. Yeah, it's a crazy statistic. And it's one that I think

that we can, and it is starting to change a little bit, but we've still got a heck of a lot of work to do in terms of what we can do. And I think these little steps, now I'm not, I don't hold all the secrets. I don't know if this is 100%, but I don't think there's anything wrong in teaching your young man to understand his emotions and how to work through them, right? Absolutely. And if we can do that when they're younger, you've got a heap more traction, because you can only imagine. You can only imagine, like you seen how it was when you went. I know what it was like when I first went. Trying to get older people to go and do it, that's super hard work. Yeah. And understanding, I kind of got to the point where I was like, I kind of care more what I think about myself

than what other people do. And that's, I'm not coming from a place of arrogance at all, but it was like, I live with myself 24-7, right? Yeah. I'm washing my hands 600 times a day after COVID because of what. And so I had to put the steps in place to be able to get to a different different horizon, I guess. Yeah, like with Oscar, try and allow him to have a space for those emotions. Because for me, I didn't really start talking. I knew I was an emotional kid.

I knew I was an emotional person. I knew I was good at picking up on emotional cues. But I didn't start talking about it until I had a kid. Yep. And it was like, imagine if I started earlier, how different I'd be and how potentially how different people around me could have been or my life could have been. Because now that I am way more open about it

and way more forthcoming and encouraging around it, I feel like I'm a completely different person. I'm a completely new, refreshed person that I feel like I've got a chance to start again and make an impact, which is crazy. And that's why I respect so much what you do that you get the opportunity to see that day in, day out. It's pretty cool.

I'm pretty blessed to be able to do it. And I don't take it for granted at all. I mean, when I kicked it off in, I think it was April last year, I didn't expect anyone to listen, right? And it's somehow resonated with people and I don't have all the big buzzwords. I probably should know a lot more than I do. But the stuff that I talk about, I genuinely believe in. And if I'm going to put this face to it, then I'm really going to stand behind what I talk about.

And I get asked to do things around the place and I'm more than happy to say no to it. It doesn't suit me and I don't get to be myself. Then I'm happy standing back. I love your simple approach about the steps and just what you're set with, especially young boys, because when you're talking about those small steps, my brain's sick and going. I want the small steps. Because it's right, you're right. I feel like the whole time when maybe we went to school, like our generation went to through primary school and high school,

it was just like either achieve the big thing or don't bother. Yeah. And it's like, well, I'm not going to bother because my brain just doesn't work like that. Yeah. But it's not a one-size-fits-all. No, it definitely isn't. And I think there's more work that we can do in the space around education. And like, don't get me wrong, main dream schooling works for a lot of people.

Yeah. But when we're starting to see how many it's not working for, I think we need to start having the conversation around easiest the right fit. And there's definitely things we can do. When you look at the current generation coming through, it has become a bit of a buzzword, the manosphere. Yeah. Which is a good thing to be aware of,

but I think there are so many parents out there who have young men who are really anxious of the fact that their biggest fear would be their child growing up and falling into that slipstream, there's definitely times where I think I'm so grateful that I have girls. It's not something that I have to worry about. I have other fears as well, but that is a big one that I have the luxury of not worrying about. When you want to give advice to other parents with young men, maybe it's ash. And it may be a hard one to answer in a short, concise conversation like we're having now, but what do you think some of the signs that your child may be slipping in to toxic masculinity.

Yeah, look, it's a very interesting landscape at the moment and obviously exacerbated by social media because half of this wouldn't get any time of day in when we grew up. Yeah. Because you think how would we have even access that information? So the phones play one of the biggest roles and my advice to any parent is to delay access to a phone

as long as humanly possible. I don't have the correct age that you should give access. I don't know what it is. I'm super lucky that the friendship group that my wife and I have, we openly discuss it. And it's like, okay, we're going to do this as a collective when the time comes. And we've got a few more years away, but choose your friends around that sort of stuff, like the values piece around how you want your kids and you want to parent your kids, pick the village around you to have similar ones because it makes it easier, right? Because if, if Ash is coming home and his folks are saying one thing and you're going home and your folks are

backing that up as well. You're like, oh, cool, that's status quo, right? And you've got pockets of friendship. But for me, it's not an instant switch when they just go, yep, sweet young boy to arrogant dickhead, right? It's just not a switch. It's a drift. Okay. And naturally, and it's a hard one to play. So I don't have an exact point in time that a parent can go, ah, got him, that's where he's going. Got it. I don't have that because as they get older, they want more independence. Don't mistake independence is them slipping off into, you know, the red pill stuff. And I'm not going to get into that because I don't really want to give it any airtime. But keep your family traditions and keep them engaging with you in your day-to-day living ways of life. And what I mean by that

to break it down really, really simple, you don't want your young person looking at that that's put out on social media thinking, A, that that's attractive or B, that it's normal. They should be able to look at that staff and hopefully share the same opinions of you guys and go, that's pretty wild and not reality. Yeah. Right? You want them to be able to identify that that's bad shit crazy and that's not the way the rest of the world works and you can still work hard, make good money and be a bloody

good human without doing all that other stuff that goes with it. And so mine is, I'm not a fan of screens in rooms at all, but you do you. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to do their parenting, but I'll be keeping them out of there as long as I possibly can. Yeah, me either. Right. And so online gaming and stuff, and we haven't really had to bridge that crap yet and deal with it as a parent. I've dealt with that from other perspectives, from schooling lenses and whatnot. But just try and keep them engaged in the family life.

Try and keep some cool routines like Friday night's pizza night and movie night or whatever it is. Those anchor points where they will want to come out of their hovel to spend time with you because it's what we do. And then when they see that alternate reality, they really understand it as an alternate reality. It's not. The normal. Yeah, I want to aspire to be like that. They're like, what is that dude doing? That's the loose unit. I don't want to be a part of that. You made a really good point about your friends. We always focus on the kid and who he's hanging out with. Yeah. But they're also watching who you're hanging out with. Big time. That hit me then, because it's like, yeah, you're right. The parents that I hang out with, Matt being one of them,

we have similar ideas of how things work. Yeah. And yeah, like you'd think that my son would be talking to my friend's son and everything would align up so that yeah you're right they would see that and go that's not normal that's how i see that's how i see it anyway like i would see that because my parents would be like have people around me that would think that that's that's just outlandish it's fucking crazy it's wild and so like for you oscar's got an amazing role model in matt right so he sees how you're welcome did try and kidnap him one on the cruise ship look i'm sure there was a reason behind it was a safety reason and i was going to beat the shit out of him He thought that were there in the friendship.

I was like, coming in a little rascal, when he's fucking uppercot in me. And I was like, it was very funny. He's been very funny. He still hasn't slept. He still hasn't slept, James. We'll never go on a cruise ship again.

But in all seriousness, the way that Oscar will see you treat Laura and the girls plays a massive impact, right? Because he's subconsciously seeing Ash, and dealing with April and living with her. Dealing them and living with her.

Well said. Well said. Sorry. I'm going to talk about the importance of how you treat her in a little while. So you're not off the hook. But that plays a big role. And because sometimes it's the subconscious stuff that's just the way of life. And they just learn that that's the way we do things.

We treat women this way. We look after them. You know, we do these things. We understand that. And when it's not coming out of your mouth, because after 12, he's probably not going to listen to you that much anyway, but he's watching the way that Matt does it, perfect. Right?

It's a, take a breath. You've got good people around you. You've built a community. And I'm not saying to parents go out and chop your friendships up. But I'm saying if you've got friends in your circle that you wouldn't be stoked if your young person was an instant replica. Maybe question how much airtime that person gets. Sorry, guys, getting cut. Yeah.

It's just an interesting one. I just have another question about ADHD, but from the parents' perspective. I have ADHD. My kids aren't diagnosed. Oscar. he's shown signs which fine but I'm also like

he's also a kid he's just being a kid as well are there any tools that I can use to help in my parenting journey number one take a breath it's gonna be alright

yeah and I mean they genuinely not facetiously like it is gonna be okay you're not gonna get it perfect yeah if you've seen me trying to navigate

Woolie's lolly aisle with my tooth you're like that's not him that can't be him right Tim is that I'm conscious if someone starts filming. Like, I'm gone. This business is done. And so, like, I don't get it perfect. Yeah.

I know best practice. That doesn't mean I do it best every day. Right. So give yourself a breather on that one. Like, listen to your last episode, you're pretty hard on yourself about, you know, your journey. So cut yourself some slack on that. You've done more heavy lifting in the past hundred and whatever it is days than some people might do in their whole journey. Yeah. Okay. So start there. Number two, you understand how your brain. works. Can you imagine if your parents understood how your brain worked when you were that age? Yeah. How could you make your life different at that age? And what I mean by that is, for me, I see signs in some of my kids too about like, oh, yeah, we're pretty sure, right?

Look at his dad. But I'm often like, okay, I know what I'm like. I've got five jobs on the go. So if I'm getting stuck into them each time, mate, you've left this there. You haven't done that. You haven't done that. If all I'm hearing is that negative input all the time, it doesn't work. So for trauma affected young people, and ADHD isn't necessarily a trauma, okay, it's seven to one positive affirmations or positive reinforcements before you give a negative. So Jen does the empathy sandwich. Yeah. Right.

Now, pumping tires is one thing, but don't pump tires unless there's a reason for it. So the trick there is, find the reason. There will always be something he's doing. That is correct. Yeah. It doesn't have to be the big ticket item. Okay. It's a simple thing, right?

So if you can find them in your day, and there will be, it might have been, he might have filled Maisie's water bottle up. And he does, that's the thing he does do these kind, sweet things, but... Do you think, when he does them, do you think you spot them? Not as well as I should. And I think I'm only just realizing that now. Because I do, I think you naturally go to the, hey, put that away, put that away. It might not be the overly negative thing.

Because it's like you're trying to teach them as well. It's like you finish with something. You put it away. But I think I would focus on that. And I'm not sure about you or two with the girls, whether you focus on that way more than maybe that little thing that Marley might have just done for Lola that is kind of insignificant. You might think, but it isn't.

You want to be a strength spotter. Yeah. Right. And that's an activity I do with teachers. Yeah. Because if you've got some teachers that have been in the game for a while and you come in as someone trying to get them to re-engage boys in education and they're like, mate,

If you've had my year nine math class on a Friday, you wouldn't be doing it. I'm like, well, I have. I've been there. There will be something that Ash is doing right in the 50 minutes that you've got him where you can say, Matt, you nailed it. It might be just sitting there. If he sits still, I'm like, whoa, right? It's not the big.

Got to answer to his pants. Exactly right. It's not the crazy out of his world thing. But if you can shift your focus to what they're doing right, it's a bit of a game changer. Now, that doesn't mean that we course correct and we guide them when they're out of control. by all means you've got to do that stuff. That's been a healthy parent. But if you can switch the lens over,

because for an ADHD kid, and I don't know the exact number off the top of my head, but it's in the thousands per year, more negative feedback than a person that doesn't have it. Yeah. And that stacks, right? That compounds over time. And then what you've got then is you've got a self-esteem issue.

And when self-esteem is low, it's the hold my beer and watch this. So I get accepted by the peer group again. So if we can catch that early and we can, you know, find little things that we're doing right, like, Ash, you came with your drink bottle. Nailed it. That's Matt's. But thank you. Take the win. I'll take credit for that.

He's actually got his name on it. Damn it. It wasn't the right way around. Right. But it's the small stuff. And small shifts, big wins is a phrase that I use all the time. I'm not here to rewrite the journey and tell everyone they're doing it wrong. There's just small little shifts that I've seen over time that sort of make a big compounding.

effort over the long haul. I love when we do an episode like this and I leave thinking about something different and how I can, so I appreciate that. And like, you're right, the small shift. And yeah, I just, sorry, my brain is going a million miles an hour, but also thinking about 10 other things. Hey, relative, I get it. You don't know how lucky you've got it.

I want it too. Me too. When I get diagnosed, I know. I can be like, say, 80s, brother. All that time. Tim, I'm going to pass your ego for a second if I may. And we've only met each other, you know, out the front of the building. But when I look at you and the work that you're doing,

I do think you are a perfect example of healthy masculinity. And even more so because maybe it's just me looking at what I wanted to be when I was growing up. You know, you're playing rugby. You know, you're a big guy. You got a great beard. Thank you. You know, you tick all the boxes of someone who is like, in my eyes, stereotypically masculine.

You got it together. But then at the same time, I think the way that you understand emotions, the work that you're doing with young men, I'm like, I want to be you. You don't want to be in here. But I'm just wondering, you know, when you look at your upbringing and maybe it's a real combination of things, or maybe there's one thing that you can say, oh, this is a real standout moment for me in how you got to be who you are.

You know, maybe it's just, you were always going to be this person. Maybe it's the fact you had a great brother. Maybe it's the fact that you had a great group of mates growing up playing sport. Maybe it was your mum and dad. Is there anything, when you look at those ingredients that you can pinpoint to be like, this was one of the most important things that made me who I am today. Yeah, look, most of, like I talked about my brother, my parents, I won the lotto, right? So dad stereotypical was a bricklayer, worked in steelworks, loved,

full driving, shooting, like, you name it, watch footy, John Wayne, Rambo, Arnie, all that sort of stuff, amazing. And then mum was, cuddles, you can conquer the world, you'll be everything, right? And so, Dad taught me the power of keeping your word, and I've spoke about that a lot. And that still rings true in our house, like, to this day.

I remember recently my brother said he was going to be somewhere at a certain time and he wasn't, and it was just like fury unleashed. And it was just because dad had, has taught us from such a young age that if you give you word, you keep it, your yes is a real yes. So don't say, yeah, I'm going to be there and then pull out early. Like, that's not what we do in our house. Say no up front if you can't make it, but your word is your bond. And if you give someone a handshake, that's as good as in writing.

And that was kind of my upbringing and who I am to this day. And mum used to always say, say what you mean and mean what you say. And I just always remember that phrase, like, if we're ever in like a bit of trouble or been, a bit smart with our mouths around the house. Mum would always just hit us with that line. Mean what you're saying? Say what you mean. Yeah, okay, gotcha. I was blessed. I won the lotto.

I had got two of the best parents. I was on the phone to Dad just before I got here. And I was like, do you reckon my biggest moment of being in trouble was the bus? And he's like, don't talk about the bus. He's still there. He's still there. And I guess that's another thing. Like, our kids will make decisions that we can't fathom or we go,

how did they do that? That is not a reflection of you or me. when our kids make a poor choice. Like, our brains aren't fully developed until like 25, 28. So if my 9-year-old has an absolute bliner, it makes a poor choice, it's pretty easy in the moment to be like, oh, crap, what's he doing that for? I'm allegedly got it all together online. Take a breath.

They're kids. They're growing up in a world that's pretty bloody crazy. And I think they've got it harder than we did coming up in terms of online influence, all those sorts of things that are happening. The world's at their fingertips, man. Oh, it's scary. It's crazy because like how quick everything happened, right? Like, I was thinking about it the other day.

I was at Nan's house and she pulled out this original Motorola phone from like 35 years ago. And I was like, no, it was, I'm talking. Oh, like a brick. Like a like a, like a charging station. And I was like, fuck. And it was like, that was when I was a child. It's like, fuck!

We've come so far that now like I kind of feel for them too. The minefields they're going to have to dodge on the way through. We didn't, we had, we was like, who's played soccer at lunch? Yeah. You drank from the hose, not from the lulu lemon bottle. I miss the hose. I miss the hose between you and me. A different flavor, didn't it?

Yeah. Like, one of the things that I notice a lot when I'm driving is a lot of young people on screens in their parents' car. You are not Uber. So part of entry in, my kids don't have phones yet, but it will be your phone goes in the glove box. I don't mind if you're Spotify DJ off my phone, but I'm not your Uber. You will not have your AirPods in unless, you know, it's five minutes before the footy game

and you have a pump-up song you need to listen to, but an absolute missed opportunity. Put the screens away. Different story. If you're on a long road trip, by all means, do your thing. But around town, get the screens out of the car.

They're absolutely robbing you of a connection point with your young person that is so easy. And in a world where we're pushed for time, it's a great little hack to make sure you're up to date. And usually, they'll share some pretty random stuff. So instead of hitting them with how was school today,

ask them what the funniest thing that was that happened at school today. Or another one that also works really, really cool is asking if someone farted in class today because they'll naturally laugh and then that breaks the wall down and then I go, no, no one did, but this happened. So with the younger kids, that works. Maybe it works with the 10-Ages as well,

but more than likely someone has farted in class. The work that you do is predominantly around young men. Why young men? Why do they deserve the attention? Yeah, thank you. And look, I do get a bit of online flack for this in the comment section. So thank you for bringing that up.

I do the work with young men because that's my experience. That's my knowledge base. and it's not because I don't value what girls bring to the table. I just don't want to be another clown on the internet talking about something they shouldn't. And girls are outside my remit because I don't parent girls. So I'm not going to sit here and tell you what I've seen work in my household because it would be absolute fabrication and the world's got enough phonies in it

that the reason I work with boys is because that's what my experience is. I've spent the last 15 years in educational leadership and private coaching one-on-one with boys. I understand what makes them tick. once I know the young person where the edge is and they need to be pushed a little bit, so challenge by choice where they get to choose and opt in and opt out and supporting them through that. But I work with boys because that's just my knowledge base. It'd be like if if Ash was a Holden mechanic and he absolutely just nailed it and you worked on forwards,

like it's no different. I want better boys because in the end of the day, it's going to better influence our females as well. But when that thing came out about the bear and the man, that infuriates me that that's where society's at. And, for good reason that that come out right and we've got a heck of a lot of work to do so the work that you boys do on your podcast the snippets that I get to put out into the community hopefully we can change that narrative to your listeners the young men that I have the privilege of working with on the daily I would be picking them over the bear because they're great young man they're often lost the goalposts have shifted on what's it mean to be a man so much over the last five years

And if you make a decision, it's toxic masculinity. And if you don't, it's femininity. Where when we grew up, you just got to be who you were. So I'm super confident in the next generation of boys coming through. I work with them every day. I'm really excited. And I know we've got some work to do. But proud to be a part of it.

If there are parents out there whose biggest fear is their child joining the manosphere, or the biggest fear is their son growing up to display toxic masculinity, what are some of the steps that they can have in the back? of their mind to make sure they don't go down that path? It doesn't happen overnight. So I just want parents to take that at ease. It's not just going to wake up and go from sweet boy to arrogant dickhead overnight. It's going to be a drift.

And you're going to pick up on that. Just be careful, though, if they're at the age where they're seeking independence and don't mistake the independence for the manosphere. But you'll notice a massive shift in language. So the language they use to explain things that might be outside of the family norm. Be understanding of who you're putting around them in their village. It's super important. and as a family, one of the things that you can do to keep your young person engaged

is have those connection points throughout the week, whether it's Wednesdays roast night or it's movie night on Friday and we get pizza. You want them engaged in family activities. So that online version that's not reality looks so far left of field that you're like, what the heck is that? I like what we're doing. I like what we're about. I'm not interested.

Thanks. Yeah, it's one of those things where us now in our 30s looking at, you know, younger men coming through. you can see the difference. Like it, I know that we also have the word of our fingertips too, right? Yeah. Where we're like,

okay, and we see the bad stuff. Yeah. Because we're adults. It's going to happen. But then also you see the good stuff of young men taking accountability of their, and of themselves and their emotions and being able to,

you know, and it doesn't mean that you're soft or you're weak because it's really powerful, you know, and I'm, yeah, I'm equally as you. I'm excited to see Oscar grow up and then. and be able to, I feel like I wasn't also able to provide enough emotional maturity for my wife until I was older.

But I would love Oscar to be able to do that from the get-go. Yeah. Which is crazy to think about. It's pretty wild, right? Yeah. The fact that two dudes hold a parenting podcast, if you go back 20 years, I don't think that had existed, right. Yeah, exactly. The competitions.

They didn't even change it happening. It didn't really even exist three years ago when we started. Exactly right, yeah. And to be one of Australia's best parenting podcast. Oh, yeah. Stop it. Stop it. Look at us.

In a world where extreme views get so much cut through and so much attention, it's so reassuring to know there's people like yourself out there who are putting out such important, valuable messages. So thank you so much. Before you go on here, I need to ask you one last question. When your boys are all grown up when they have left the nest, no longer living at home, what is the one thing you want them to remember about the house they grew up in?

Oh, that is a solid question. I want them to know that I'll always have their back. and that doesn't matter what they do, they can always share it with me. And we've got the safe words that they can use. Real serious moment, but funny side quest, because that's where my brain goes. Having this conversation with my six-year-old about, we were deciding he was picking what his word was going to be if he ever had to come and tell me. Hold on to your hat.

I said, bud, this is the word. You get to choose it. It can be anything you want. And when you say it, dad promises to sit, listen. He might need to walk away when you're older, have a think about things. will always circle back, but you can always use it, and I'll help you. He's like, yeah, cool. I said, all right, mate, hit me with it.

What's your word? And he went, plant. There wasn't even one in the room. There was not even one in the room. Yeah, I think he might have it. I think he's going to plan. Okay, that's what we're working with. He definitely wouldn't want to go out to be a gardener because that could be real confusing.

Stop talking to me about work. But yeah, I just want him to know. And I had that. I could ring Dad now, so Dad, I need you in Sydney, and he'd be on the next plane. And I want my kids to have that from me and my wife. And hopefully they're starting to feel that now, even when we hold them accountable for sometimes their poor choices. When you look at the stats right now, and it's something that it's hard to talk about, but at the same time gives a pretty clear picture of what the issue is.

Do you know suicide rates among young men? Yeah, look, it's pretty wild, not just young men, but men in general. So on average in Australia daily, there's nine suicides. Seven of those nine are men. Out of every five male suicides in Australia right now, less than one of those people actually reached out for help, which is quite a sobering statistic, which is the reason why this work is so important

and whilst I was so grateful to be here today, to champion the young people that are coming through and to celebrate the fact that we are re-educating our young men that it's okay to ask for help, And not that it's okay. It's actually masculine to ask for help and to keep working through it. We don't completely shut down. We ask for help.

We get the tools. We then use the tools to keep working on things. And for me, that's masculinity in a nutshell. Yeah, it's wild to think that for some people, it's an easier option to end their life than it is to try and ask for help. Yeah, it's pretty scary. And I'm grateful to be on the other side of that and understand that if we do this work now and we have these tricky conversations,

we can change that statistic. And it is starting to Peter, but it's still a pretty wild number. I think we'd all agree that even one is too many. But if we can change the narrative of that by just educating our young men that it's bloody okay to ask for a hand when you need it and that it's actually a masculine thing to do to ask for help

and not to just white-knuckle it and cowboy up or whatever the languages you want to use to get through life, bloody ask a mate for help. Because I know that you would be stoked if Ash called you when he needed you or vice versa. It's an important thing. And I think as a friend on the other side of the phone, it's quite an emotional part of it too,

but to know that you're helping someone is also a good thing as well. It's wild to think just little phrases, like you said before, man up and boys don't cry, which is just so off the cuff and they don't really have any importance. But what impact that's having on young men as they grow up? Yeah. Tim, it is an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast.

And for your first time, like, he's pretty good. He's pretty good. I'm worried for my job. Yeah, thank you so much. Like I said, I love it when we get to have a chat with someone that leaves me thinking and leaves me with something small that I think that I can change or shift, as you would say, for the positive.

And I think a lot of people are going to get a lot out of this. And the first YouTube to see that beard in action. Thank you so much. I didn't brush it. Look, thank you so much for having me on and for the opportunity to talk about the great things that young men are doing. And to all the parents out there, it's going to be. okay. Zoom out. As parents, we get stuck in the micro. Zoom out, look at it at a grand scale.

I'm sure you're a young person's an absolute legend. Give him some time. But thanks having me. Appreciate it. So we have Jen, who is the Oracle. Yes, but... What do we call Tim? The wizard. The wizard! He's the wizard of parenting. I love it when we have a guest on that makes me leave the episode and go home and try some of the techniques, especially when it comes to Oscar, because yes, I am worried about how He's going to grow up and treat women and just respect people altogether. So now there's so many things that I can take from that conversation that I can apply at home. Except when you get home to the kids, then you're like, let me parent you.

And they're like, leave me alone. I'm reading a book and coloring in. Don't talk. Get out of my room. I know. Yeah. I wish they would say that. I know.

They're like, dad, come and sit down here. It's like, son, I can't get down that low. So huge thanks to Tim, who actually credit where credit is due. He flew here from the sunny coast. It was his first ever podcast and he was nervous, but killed it. I think he's got no, he's got a strong future, this boy. A little too strong. I know, I'm scared for my job, but that's okay.

There's a massive thanks to Tim for jumping on the pod. And if you've enjoyed this episode, we would love it. It would just fill our cups, if you will. If you would give us a review, follow us on Apple Podcast or Spotify, wherever you listen to this podcast, and also follow us on social media at Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, Facebook, You chew two doting dads. And throw us any suggestions of parents or experts,

because everyone said we don't want experts and we give you experts and you're like, oh my God, this is delicious. We want more. So if there's an expert you want us to speak to, far away. We are open to your suggestions. And we did receive a few messages about you in particular, Matt, bagging on young boys. We joke.

We joke a lot around here. And we do love both boys and girls and children. Equally. Equally. Equally. Equally. But it's just, it's just the easier target. I would say Oscar's an easy target.

I said it. I said it, but I love him dearly. He's like mini-mee. So if you do feel that we are bagging on a little too much, it all comes with love. Well said. Thank you. Two Doting Dad's podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country

throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded. recorded on Gatigal Land.