Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #234 The Silent Struggle Of Dads with Dr Zac

Episode Date: June 14, 2026

This Men's Health Week (from June 15), we're turning the spotlight onto dads. Because when's the last time you asked a new father how he's really doing? Findings from Movember's More Than A Provider report reveal that 1 in 5 dads feel more isolated or lonely since having kids. The study also found that fathers are 2–3 times more likely to experience mental health challenges than the average man. In this episode, the boys sit down with Dr Zac Seidler — a clinical psychologist, leading men's mental health researcher, and new dad himself — to unpack what men are really going through behind closed doors. The conversation explores the identity shift that comes with fatherhood, the challenges many dads face in staying connected, and why simple things like sport, friendship and community can have such a profound impact on men's wellbeing, relationships and longevity. It’s a raw, honest and incredibly important chat that every parent (mum or dad) can take something from. A huge thank you to Movember for the incredible work they do supporting men's health and for helping make this important conversation possible. If you're struggling and need to speak with someone immediately, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Suicide Call Back Service on 1300 659 467. If you're ever worried that someone's life is in immediate danger, call 000 or go directly to emergency services.   If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It is Men's Health Week, and we are stoked to work with Movember bringing Dr. Zach Seidler, the global director of research at Movember on the pod. Look, they've just released a really amazing report. It's called More Than a Provider, and we're going to put the link in the show notes, so if you want to have a read of the report, you can get access to it. The stats aren't going to surprise you, but I think it's really important to acknowledge some of the figures like 1 and 4 fathers rated their mental health as poor in the first year of fatherhood,

and one in five reported feeling isolated or lonely. These topics have been coming up a lot on the pod, and it's great to have an expert to talk about these things, and we all know that men aren't the best at talking about their feelings. We think that we're good at it, like we're good at everything else, but unfortunately, it is not the case. You know, we're lucky Ash in that we have this podcast, which we've said before.

It's our therapy each week, but there are so many dads out there that aren't as fortunate to have these conversations all the time. I think it goes without saying, Matt, that being a dad is amazing, of course, but it's not all rainbows and butterflies. There's a lot that goes into it. And for me, I've struggled throughout my fatherhood journey, and it's great to have someone on that we can pick his brain and see if he can help some of the other dads out there.

Just a heads up that within this episode, we are going to be talking about mental health. So we will talk about topics of depression and self-harm. But I really want to stress that. We also talk about some really awesome tools to help yourself. yourself or your partner if they are experiencing this kind of struggle. We'll leave all the details in the show notes, so please enjoy the episode. Let's get into it. Welcome back to three doting dads.

I'm Maddie J. I'm Ash and I'm Dr. Zach. Oh, doctor. He's got to trump us with that, eh? Such a flex. Took nine years, man. Well, I'm a pilot. And this is a podcast all about parenting.

It is the good. It is the bad. And the relatable. And Zach, do we have a, have we had a doctor on? This may be our first doctor. Is Jenna a doctor? She should be a doctor. We're really maturing the podcast here.

We are. We are. We are. We did say at one point, as a blanket rule, we're like, we will never, ever give advice. And even the listeners were like, we don't want advice either. And then the moment we gave to someone who could offer advice, they were like, give us more. We want more of that shit. Yeah.

Yeah. So you'll be delivering the shit today. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. You're allowed to. We're not allowed to. We always like, any advice that we do accidentally give, we got a ritual. tracked very quickly. But you, you'll just jump on though and add to it. So that'll be good.

Absolutely. Can I just check? Do you prefer doctors? No, no, no, no, no. Because I will. I get into like Dr. Phil territory and that's terrifying. Obviously, your driver's license is doctor and stuff, right? I like when you get on a plane, this was the reason I did a PhD. So I'm not a medical doctor. I'm a clinical psychologist. Let's be clear on that. When I got on a plane the first time I got my PhD, they go, welcome doctor. Just so you know, you're second in line for an emergency. And I'm like, oh shit. And let's kill him. What the fuck?

There was a pediatric surgeon in business. So if a child is injured. Yeah, yeah. But I said the vast majority of emergencies are panic attacks. So I'm actually good to go. That in pregnancy, I've got both of those. You're like, nah, you're second. Don't push it.

We'll drop you to third. We have a doctor, Dr. Drey's in the back. We start these podcasts off with finding a little bit about the man. Okay. We want to understand what's the most trouble that you got in as a child. Oh, God. It's very telling to share this story because it's like, I think I've come to the point where my impulse control has matured, you know, I hope. But as it like 12, 13 year old, we lived above a pretty main road and we had a great ice maker in our freezer.

And we decided one summer day that first we, like me and my mates, were going to throw ice at each other because that's just a normal thing to do. Yeah, of course. And then we were like, oh, how strong is our arm? How far can we throw this? And so they're chunky pieces, and we just launched onto the main road. And I cracked someone's windskill. You dead back. And I hid in the shower.

With the hot water or. Ironically. We were all hiding in the shower and they're like pressing the buzzer. Oh, they're buying you. Yeah. Well, it's also because it's a sunny day, it's hailing on me. This is great. Yeah.

But it's funny because it is like folklore with my mate. like we talk about the ice, you know, the ice moments of, yeah, it was, it was wild. Was there a punishment? My mom didn't find out, I don't think, so she's listening now. Because we just, we hid until they went away and then they seemingly didn't come back. You'd be disappointed, wouldn't you? Yeah. As a parent, be like, that's not, that's not good.

Because I messaged my mom last night being like, what did I, what did I do? Like, you got anything? She was like, you were perfect. I'm like, lies, endless lies. But, you know, we'll take it. So now she knows if she's listening to this. Wow. Was it a good throw?

Were you like, Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Launch that bad boy. Yeah, we also, like, we don't condone any level of ice throwing in public. I don't want to get some ice and throw it. Let's do it. Let's do it.

We're really, hold that thought. We're really close. Like the Harbour Bridge. We could launch it off the overpass there all the time. I know. Our water bombs, like, do the kids like still do that? Yeah, full of pee though. Oh, Jesus.

No, your kids. I'm not giving anyone out of these. I don't know what they're doing in all the beaches. Oh, we're having a piss fight. Duh. Standard. No, they are. They are very much they're...

That's PG. That's good. They've got the ones things now that fills up like 100 at once. Wow. I know. The future. That takes away the effort.

That was fun. I know. We're not here talking about water bombs, aren't we? Zach, you have recently become a new dad. Five months ago, I want to say congratulations. Thank you. I think we spoke on Instagram...

Just before. Before. Yeah. Did I give you some... Any words of advice? I hope not, because you're not meant to. Hold, hold on, hold on, man. Fair, that's good.

That's good gear. How are things going? Are you still holding on? I'm holding on. My boy is like the cutest thing ever. So like regardless of the night of the day, just attachment is made easy when you look. He actually doesn't look anything like me.

He doesn't have a beard. He's probably like it. He's got blue eyes. Like, it's trippy. How old now? Five months. Wow. Five months and 10 kilos, man.

He is. You are for a wretchy monkey. Now wonder you look so clean and so happy. and it's great. I'm loving it. Like I've done so much theorizing on fatherhood and now it's it was time to get into the trenches and I was pumped. Is it what you expected? Obviously like researching the topic versus being in the trenches and experiencing it can be two separate things. How did you find the two? Well, having listened to a lot of you guys and and trying to like grapple with the messiness of all of this, my expectations were really loose and I think that that was the key.

I've watched lots of my friends crumbled because they had this belief of what fatherhood would be. And my clients as well, they were like, I'd read this book or I'd been told that this was what it was supposed to look like and my child is different. Why is, and is there something wrong with me? You know, the whole idea around fathers finding purpose and connection with their kid and it takes time. And it's like, why is this not happened? I just went in being like, I'm going to do anything that I can to like connect with my instincts here because I believe that they are going to lead me down the right. path and he will tell me what he needs. Like, I've done enough developmental psych to go, I think I get the basics of child

rearing. Yeah. And the specifics are going to come with finding out what he wants, who he is, what he needs. Yeah, the experience becomes like, you're a big part of the learning, hey, especially when you go, like, I mean, going from one to two, Matt, Matt's gone to three, you've sort of subconsciously learn these things that you don't actually think about them when the second one, you're just doing it, you know? That's pre-baby post-baby. That's just how it is. And I just don't think that there's any use in trying to envisage what your life is going to look like necessarily, because then you don't reach those expectations. You failed somehow. Everything blows up. Rather, I just tried to go, I'm open to all experiences as they come and this is going to be heaps of fun more than anything. And I think something that really pisses me off around the chat around fatherhood more broadly. And actually parenting.

is like everything is super negative at the moment. There's just this pendulum swing that it just moved into like the, everything is death and destruction and hard. There is a lot of trauma and really important stuff that needed to be aired that wasn't previously. But I think we're at a point now where if I go, my kid's sleeping for like 10 hours, someone goes, oh, you wait. Like, why do you have to say that? Why is this idea of it'll get bad?

How does that benefit me? Just wait to there a teenager. I think people should. It never ends. I think people subconsciously want to prepare you for what could potentially happen, right? Yeah. But again, everyone's different. Every child is different. Every baby is different. I mean, we are sold this magical thing, which it is, and you go through nine months of waiting, and then the expectation can be sometimes, like, a bit lonely. After the, I mean, everyone's sort of looking at mum, making sure mum's like, as they should,

because she's just gone through this amazing childbirth and whichever way that sort of comes about. But then it's sort of like, okay, I want to make sure everyone's okay, but then sometimes you can feel a bit lonely. Yeah. Do you find that with? For sure. I've seen that in clients. I felt it myself. And so what I decided was I'm going to find my role here really quickly.

And I'm going to, no matter how big or small it is, depending on the day, I'm going to own this. And so, you know, it was cooking at the start. And I was like, I'm going to smash this. I'm going to get this down pat. And it doesn't matter. that it's not parenting as it was conceptualized and sold to me because, you know, he just needed boob at the start and sleep pretty much. And so, again, the expectation around who I need to be and how I need to show up,

I just try to loosen the pressure on some of that stuff. And I do think that that period is so prone to loneliness because there has been such a massive shift in your value, I think in some ways. you've gone from two to three or three to four to five, and you're trying to find out where your identity fits in this new structure and doing really small things that are probably very important for the unit suddenly don't feel that useful or don't feel like you're doing what you should and you have this constant sense of failure and you isolate from yourself, I think, in some ways as well. And I just watch dads kind of recede at that time point and kind of shrink because I don't

know how to inject themselves into this new world. And so I think it's just a matter of doing a massive reorientation in your head of what value and purpose kind of look like. When you talk about a new world, I think when you compare our fathers to the current generation of fathers, the identity of a dad has changed so much. How do you think it is changed and how are dads coping with that change? Yeah. I think about this a lot. And we've just published a report out of Movember called More Than a Provider, which really in the name kind of says a lot about where modern-day fatherhood is, which is that back in the day, it was provider-protected breadwinner. Like, there was a pretty clear structure. And I think it should be said that, like,

black and white thinking is very easy to wrap your head around, you know, mom does this, dad does this. We're now at a point where there is a dual identity, which is something that mothers have been dealing with for a very long time. I'm a parent. I'm a worker. I'm a, you know, wife, I'm going to hold all of these identities at the same time and work out where it fits. Dads are now having to do that. And I felt that massively in my head. I felt the room kind of constrict. And I was like, wait, there's not enough time and space to do all of this. And so what our report kind of talks about is that there is such beauty in having to suddenly reshape your life around being this vulnerable and nurturing caregiver, which you didn't often receive, especially in Australia.

It's not a common occurrence for dads to be massively soft and loving from the previous generation. That shifts when they become grandparents. It's just a unique effect. Doesn't it ever. But trying to do that while also being in financially tough times, where you do need to provide. And you might not be the only provider, but you've got the pressure from society telling you, all right, you're the guy, you need to make sure that you can keep the family running. And also, I need you for more than bath time. I need you in the mornings because I want to go to gym. Can you drop in at lunch and check in for an hour? Because I need to go and do a work call. Like, it's the balancing act that so many men in previous generations didn't have.

And that means that there is, seriously. Yeah. They work 50 hours a week. It's gone straight up. It's gone from, I think I saw some data that it's like, we are doing four times more parenting than our fathers and eight times more than our grandfathers and we're still working as much. And so it's like that's when you start to see loneliness. So they could have done it all along. They could have. They could have. It was a lie. But that's where loneliness creeps in because it's like how the hell, like all the dads who are going to the races and going to the footy and doing all of this stuff because that was their role. They didn't need to be there to do all of the other stuff. Now suddenly all the time that you were going to spend with mates is restricted because you're at

home and the village is way smaller as well. The nuclear family has kind of taken over. And so our data consistently tells us that dual identity means that the beauty of connection, the desire to value family over, you know, financial success is there. They're telling their kids they love them way more than previous generations. They're doing far more caregiving. And yet they are also feeling massively under the pump to have a good career, to be able to, you know, pay off the mortgage. and all of that. So it's coexisting in ways that the women have dealt with for a really long time, but there are no structures and there's no conversation. Like this is a really unique space where we can talk about that bind that men find themselves in. I don't know if you're the same,

Ash, but I feel like the dads that I know, it's a pretty broad spectrum between there are some dads that still very much see it as a black and white shared responsibility. And I find it hard to connect on a parenting liver with those dads. And then there's others that are doing, like you said, in the research that are trying to take on work plus be a caregiver at home, to the dads that are finding it hard to connect, that are feeling that sense of loneliness, what is your advice to them? I think that the connection piece is often around identity and the notion around transitions is often the hardest thing for men to cope with, which is that when it comes to men's mental health, you look at kids going from school to

university, university to the workplace, marriage, divorce, fatherhood, unemployment, retirement, those types of really key pivotal moments for men are often the hardest for their mental health because they're doing all this thing in this idea of like linear progress. And men, we're working towards this thing and we're going to get to an end point at all will be well. But what that brings is this massive roller coaster where suddenly the very identity forming values that you had, the idea of where you were going and who you are, get pulled out from underneath you. And so when you look at some of these men who are really struggling to connect during that time, it's because they were holding onto a past self that needs to be reincorporated. It needs to be

shifted. And you need to lose some things. And it's very hard for lots of guys to embrace grief, to be honest with you, that your past self is no longer here. The idea that you can just go out whenever you want, get on the beers. Like, I realized when I became a dad, I was like, okay, yes, I am carving off those previous parts of myself. But this is where that narrative around positivity comes in. What am I about to open? What are those doors that I'm about to open?

And we're way too focused on what we lose rather than going, actually staring at my boy for like an hour and a half is way better than lots of other things that I used to do. If there's any dads out there, maybe they have that mentality of like, you know what, I'm going to take on work. That would be my priority. I'm going to make sure that my family are financially secure and that will be my number one responsibility. What is your argument to that won't necessarily turn you into a good dad? My question is always, is that what you want to do? Like, is that what's been sold to you? Is this something that is just the clearest narrative that you can grab a hold of because it is black and white? Because so many men, and you often find, you know,

my dad's generation or grandparents' generation, who are very regretful of the fact that they weren't there, that they weren't present, because they got offered this really clear doctrine of dads do this, go off, and you're successful because you brought in enough money to keep food on the table. But yet, you get later in life, and you go, wait a second, I missed all of those landmark moments. So I don't think it's a matter of going to the endth degree and doing everything, because I'm trying to do that currently, and it's hurting. I've had to, like, shift in my mind that I'm not the primary caregiver, you know, because, and I'm working full time. It's like, You can't do all of these things.

And so it is about realizing that day to day you're doing a bit of a dance, but asking men who go, all right, I'm just going to be the breadwinner. It's like, can you find ways to make that 80% and where are you going to find that 20% that is going to be connection with your children? Yeah, because it's like, I suppose you mentioned before that it was, mums were doing this, right? They were having babies and then they were going back to work and balancing that. They seem to have found a way to do that.

Is it because they were sort of sold that narrative early on, that that's, you know, that's just how it is. But with you guys, you pick one or the other. I'd hate to get to my 50s and feel like I've missed all the time that I've had with my kids now. And honestly, like before having kids, I wouldn't have even thought about that. But now I'm like, fuck, yeah. Like, I'd hate to wake up one day and go, I concentrated. Yes, it was good that everyone was clothed, dress, had a roof over their head.

There are things that are attainable, but also with finding a balance that we hear like, okay, I'm not missing things. Yeah, I think if you're doing that, like you said, it's important to have food on the table, to have a roof heavy head. But if you're doing that at the detriment of having any one-on-one time with your child, like a child doesn't give a fuck. Just an expectation for them that they're going to be fed and have a place to sleep. And I will say that it is often avoidance because you are the master of your domain at work.

And so many men tell me this when they come in clinically. It's like I go off, I'm looking after a team of 40. They fucking bow down to me and I come home and my wife is like, why don't you put away this plate? And it's like, that's a massive disconnect. And it's a come down of the highest order. And so they go, I'm just going to stay at work because I'm respected. Yes.

And that requires unpacking, man. And that's why, like even being able to have that conversation, you say, you know, before I had kids, I didn't consider that I missed something. but yet we're now here having this going, wait a second, what would I miss? What even would I miss? Because you typically get to your 50s or 60s and go, I've done it and I miss those things because now I've seen them.

But moms talk about and have always talked about what they would miss. They've talked about what the process is, what mothering looks like. And there are plenty of mothers who decide very clearly in a black and white way, I'm going to be at home. And that's fine. It's not a very clear, you know, yes or no type thing. But it's that dance that requires open dialogue. Yeah, you're right.

I suppose, like, I wouldn't have had a conversation about what I would potentially miss as a man about with my kids, like my future kids, right? But now I'm having the conversation. But moms would have probably had that conversation with their friends, right? They would have opened up a little bit more about it when I don't feel like I could have opened up with anyone about that. You know, like now I can because obviously we have these conversations. But, like, yeah, it's like, what? What type of dad do you want to be? Like if I ask people that, because I try to do that during pregnancy.

Because dads just don't do any work during that time. I'm like, this is, your brain is shifting. Things are going to change massively. Let's try and have some adaptive evolutionary conversation about who you want to become. Yeah. And, you know, if I was to ask either of you during that time with your first kids, what type of dad do you want to be? Lots of people would say, I don't want to be like my own dad.

Or they would say, I want to be fun, dad. But they're all caricatures. They lack depth. Whereas you ask moms, what type of a mom they want to be? Fucking hell, you're going to get a real rich answer. Yeah, very true. Yeah, yeah. Loving, nurturing, all these sorts of things.

But, yeah, you're right. Dave, I just want to be fun. That is a character, right? You've got to do it. There's other things around that. You can't just be fun all the time. Well, the whole house would be silly. Sounds pretty good, but in reality, it's not.

Yeah. Yeah, that's the Homer Simpson effect. It's like no one needs a two-dimensional dad. I think that there's two types of fathers in current culture. One is like the hero and he's put on a pedestal and he's going to save us all and one is the idiot. And it's like, like, Bandit can't fall off the pedestal because it's a fucking drawing. Which says a lot, honestly, that like the pinnacle of Australian fatherhood is a drawing. Like I think that we are at a point where we really need to show that.

that messiness, which is like you can do the good, bad and ugly. That's how modern day parenting looks and don't put them on a pedestal in the same way that we shouldn't be putting footy players on a pedestal for talking about their mental health because they'll just fall off. It's too, it's too much. No one is perfect. And I think when we're talking about dads, it's like here is that simplicity of like, let's box him in rather than saying he can be really complex and shift day-to-day in moment to moment. When you're talking about this modern-day dad, the dads that are funding that dance between work and being hands-on at home, what do you see as being one of the biggest issues that they're facing? I think it's around expectation of what culture has told them

they should be doing. And so that's when you end up with massive relationship blow-ups, you know, around mental load and domestic duties, because, oh, I'm working. And I continue to have really open conversations with my wife about this where I'm like, I don't have that much time. I'm trying to work out what I need to do for there not to be resentment building in the house, but it's a matter of transparency where I'm saying, you know, she says, you didn't see that thing, you didn't clean that thing. And I go, I kind of need to be attuned to that. Like, I've got four different modes in my head that I'm constantly jumping between. And I just need to get better at it, honestly. Like, that requires building that muscle because, and women have said

this forever, it's like he doesn't see the mess. And it's like my eyes work. It's just priorities. It's where my attention is placed. And that's why I think being myopic and being so single-minded about work and, you know, your children kind of being a distraction, like that causes a disconnect from self because so many guys I end up seeing in their mid-40s, late 40s, feel like they had distracted away from this thing that they didn't really understand being, you know, child-rearing, and now they're going, if only I'd been present and willing to embrace that challenge fundamentally. And that's, you know, leveraging masculinity in therapy is kind of my game and being like, all you do is talk about self-optimization. All you're doing is talking about leveling up and

resilience building and fucking, you know, ice bars. Being a dad is the hardest thing you're going to do. Like, let's go. What is that going to look like? How are we going to actually build up that challenge week by week so that you get better at this thing and you're actively being a member of this rather than being afraid? So what's the silver bullet? What's the bit of advice that you're like, focus on this and it'll make you a better dad. What do you tell your clients? Why tell them to focus on themselves. I think that that, you know, so many of them are actually distancing themselves from their own reality because they're like, I've got to look after everyone else. Or they go, no, I can't, I can't go to gym because I need to make sure that I'm doing this thing. And I'm like,

if you actually disconnect from yourself first, that's the greatest disservice you can do to the family. Like, it is so easily represented in the fact that the vast majority of referrals are coming to me from wives. Yeah. That is not a good assessment of current men's health. It's funny because I did a story set asking about if you were struggling with your mental health as a dad, as a parent, why didn't you reach out for help? And the biggest response that we got was I thought I could manage it on my own.

Yeah. To those dads out there or if partners are listening on behalf of their husband, how do we make more men aware that their struggle is. something that they can't do by themselves. I think that I thought it was something I could do on my own, like this notion of self-reliance is put onto this top-level idea of what it means to be a man, rather than realizing that as social beings, the greatest thing you can do is actually have people around you that you can rely on. We are fundamentally requiring leaning on others in order to succeed, in order to thrive. And again, when they say, I thought I could do it on my own,

and that I could crack this. I'm like, how much suffering is required for you and those around you before you realize that you can't do it? Because it always ends up in crisis. Like, that's what happens. They're drinking too much. They're not seeing their mates. They're suicidal, whatever it might be. And they go, I don't want to put a burden on my partner. And then the burden is massive later on. Yeah. Well, even there's been so many times, I'm a pretty open book. I'm pretty emotionally aware, but there have been so many occasions where I've not been doing great. And Laura said, hey, are you okay? And I just go, yeah, I'm fine.

It's so confronting, I think, for anyone to say, actually, I'm not doing okay. Like, is there any type of dialogue that you can give people as a tool to open up that conversation? Because I think any dad listening to say, I'm not doing okay, it's one of the most confronting statements that they can ever say to someone else. For sure. I think that it depends what we define, like, okay as, because I often, tell wise partners' mothers to kind of adapt the language based on what he's saying. If he doesn't want to say, I'm not okay, then it's like really drill into the one thing

that you know he's probably willing to admit is not going according to plan, which is like, if you're saying, I can feel burnout coming, for instance, it's like rather than these generic statements of like, you're crumbling, you're having a breakdown, which often happen later on when shit is hit the fan, doing that kind of breadcrumbing early. on and saying, I've noticed this thing, like changes in character are always the greatest tell, you know, that's what when someone is drinking more, when they're not talking as much, when they're out, when they're, you know, working like crazy. I think that trying to really pinpoint certain behaviours so that it doesn't feel like an attack, it's just like, this is the thing

that I've noticed, and that is going to be a great conversation starter, because he knows, and you're not saying you've failed. You're just. you're just saying, I've noticed that this behavior, like, what do you think about it? Rather than being like, this isn't okay, you need to deal with it, you need to go to therapy. The amount of times I call my mates and I can hear their wives in the background screaming out, he needs to go to therapy. I'm like, I can't find to save them all. But it is, like, the greatest thing that men can do is take control of their own shit.

And that does not mean somehow fixing things on your own that you don't. don't have the tools to fix. Like believing that, oh my God, it's Tuesday now. I've been dealing with this for three and a half months, but today I'm going to suddenly get the understanding of how to father and work and do all of this, you know? We've always hated instruction manuals, haven't we? I know. I know. I remember early days for me when we had Oscar, first kid, and my sister said it to me very bluntly, and she was just like, when the, when the masks come down on an airplane, they'd tell you to fit yours first. And I was like, first. First, first. First, time I'd heard that, I've heard it a lot more since, it's pretty common, but it's stuck with

me because it was like, I can't, you know, I can't do this on my own. I need to help me before I can help you guys. And April was very much of that belief too. Like, I was very, I'm very thankful that she was like, well, you know, not like, what do you mean? You got to work on you. You know what I mean? Which I can imagine there are probably some relationships out there where that, the cases it's like, hey, I need to work on me. It's like, what about us? Yeah. What about us? Working on me doesn't mean like going and playing golf three times a week. Yeah. And I think that that idea, like I'm a therapist and a dad.

I've spent my life thinking and working on this stuff and I need therapy. Yeah. The other thing that's really important is I do not believe that everyone needs therapy. I don't think that everyone needs it all the time. I try and get people in and out as quickly as I can. With a generation of self-help. Oh man, 100%. It's like you actually probably need a run and hang out with your friends without alcohol.

and you need to take your kid with your best maid and his kid and spend some quality time together. It's why when someone asked early on, is like, do you want to go to this dad's group? I was like, no, I need to see my friends. Like, I actually don't need, I don't need strangers right now. And being able to tap into my needs, I think that's something that dads really struggle with. It's something that I struggle with is like, what do I actually need right now? Because I'm so focused on what my wife or the baby needs that I actually, completely disconnect from what's happening internally.

And that has massive flow-on effects as well, because then you get to the point where you're crumbling and no one can support you. Yeah, I remember I got so angry. I was just angry with my situation that I couldn't fix my own situation, mainly because I was worried about how that would impact them. I was so angry at me.

I was angry at April. I was angry at my kid that was like, like six months old, not even. I was so angry. And then it was like, I went from being angry to being like, well, I could just not be here. Yeah. You know? And then I kind of wish that I had earlier on being given the advice that you've,

you've got to put your mask on first. Like, ever since I had that mentality, everyone else around me is everyone's happier, right? I might not have given birth. I might not have been able to breastfeed and stuff like that. But what I can do is help me to help everyone else. And I think it took me a while to learn that, mainly because it was like just the get on with it mentality, right? People were like, get on with it. And I'm not surprised with the response we got where it's like, I could do it myself.

Bullshit, right? If the therapist needs therapy, you can't do it yourself, right? You might be that sound that you think you can do it yourself, but everyone else can see that you can't. But you talk about that idea of like maybe it's better than I'm not here. And I think that, you know, it's so brave to talk about this, Ash, but it is. also like the most common experience we know in like the men's health field is that being a burden is the greatest risk factor for suicidality amongst guys because they've got this idea that like i'm not of use i don't have utility i'm not adding something i'm not building i'm not connecting there's no point in

me being here and something that i do clinically that i think hopefully undermines that idea is like especially with a new dad who's going through these experiences, I sit down with him and he says, they're not going to miss me. I'm just a drain. That's exactly how I felt. Yeah, I'm just a drain. And I say, okay, let's go through just this morning what you did. And they go, well, I drove the kids to daycare and then I came home and I prepped dinner. And then I talked to my wife about what we're going to do for schools in the area. And then I, you know, went and planned how you start to list all this stuff out and you see this piece of paper in front of you and I go, this is three hours. How do you think anyone is better off without having you do that?

You know? And it's like you need to get into the nitty gritty of what not being here actually means. Yeah. What loss actually looks like to be able to conceptualize that your sense of failure is really not true. your idea that you're not enough is not true and to start to build back that self-belief really that you are useful and to get your mood to kind of follow in many ways. For a lot of people out there

when they think about putting on the mask with themselves, I know I do, I'd go straight to like, well, therapy is what self-help looks like. What are the steps before that? I know you mentioned about friends. I found a situation, we spoke about it in a previous episode where I'd kind of lost friends

quicker than I was making new ones who are in the same situation as me. What would you recommend as someone who might be in a similar scenario? What are the smallest steps they can do to prioritize their own mental health? Yeah, it is so important because the vast majority of men, as I said, don't need therapy or aren't going to lean into it as the first port of call, nor should they. It's expensive and it's not there for like everyday functioning, you know. I think that firstly, we always like disregard and our report showed. It's like exercise, like sleep deprivation is massive. There's no doubt about that. And there's some amount of it that cannot be avoided, for sure. But trying to focus on your body and, like, presence and being able to actually

have a sense of strength and independence and whatever in your body is going to flow on to your mental health. But what you're talking about there is, like, where friends are kind of falling away. I think that what I so often see in guys is this lack of willingness. to say, hey man, I need you. I love you. I need to talk. And so there is this silent atrophy that kind of happens over time where if you don't water the plant, it dies. And women water that plant all the time. Like there is no deal when it comes to deprioritizing friendship. But for some reason, with guys, because it's not a marker of success. Fundamentally, it's not. As a man, how many mates you have, after high school, it just doesn't become, until you get to your eulogy, and there are how many

people are there who loved you and knew you, there is a massive period of time throughout your entire middle years where friendship is not spoken about amongst guys as something to value. When we know, like the Harvard longitudinal study shows over and over again, the guys who are still alive, quality of friendships. That's it. Smoking, exercise. Like, none of this stuff is as strong as friendship is, and we just do not pay attention. We just don't. And also people don't tell us, like I spoke to a mum the other day about this and she messaged her son after and said, awesome job with your friends. Like, it's incredible, you're 19 and you've got these three best mates who you like pay attention to and you put time and effort into. We need to like pump that up

a bit more because it is life-saving. And I think that, you know, the mothers and wives who are listening have a role to play in this as well, which is like, again, it's not just crisis, like, okay, go and have a boy's weekend. It's like, let them build the muscle to own a part of the social calendar. This is why when men get divorced, they fall apart because they don't have the social scaffolding at all. They're like, oh, I don't know how to call anybody. I know, but also, I think a lot of, I know a lot of men who are, you know, around my age who are like, oh, I'll see my mate, I'll go to the pub and we'll have six beers. Yeah.

And like that's obviously not going to help the situation at all. So what are the other things that they can be doing? This is like the most common thing that guys, especially when they're going sober, that they come into therapy and they're like, so I can't see my friends anymore. And I'm like, have you heard of rock climbing? Like any, like, I have to start listing activities. It's wild. I studied for nine years to give hobby suggestions.

I feel that. Fucking bungee junk. I don't know. Like there's so many things. I feel that. They're for a walk, man. I feel like going through those, you know, 20, yeah, 20s, your early 30s or whatever, before you have kids, so much of my identity was just drinking. And I think like when I made the decision to have a break, you know, the knock on effect was obviously the benefit that was with my core family, right?

But then as well, it was like, well, what do I do? with my friends. Like, thankfully, I have Matt that this is like therapy, that this is our job as well, which is, which is one thing. But those friends that live close to me, it was like, okay, well, what do we do now? And it was like, yeah, so like, you know, I picked up pickleball with a mate, just so casually just because it was like, all right, well, what's something we can do that's not relying around drinking? And you're right. You're like, you just let, have you heard of this? You heard of that, you heard of that. And it's like, you kind of think that you can only do those things if you're wrapped up in the world of alcohol because it goes hand in hand, which, you know, it's just...

Or in the inverse, it then gets flipped into this, like, oh, cute bromats. Yeah. I'm like, I hate that as well. I'm like, can't they just play Frisbee together and, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Why is sport so important? And why is it so beneficial? Sport is essential from this, like, shoulder to shoulder, this idea of, like,

sitting side by side with someone watching sport or playing, you know, being busy with your hands. I have always, within therapy as well, with young guys. I had a ping pong table, I had a pool table. I've played, you know, cod with them before. This idea that we should sit across from one another. For the mums, that's call of Judy. Sorry, thank you.

It's a shooting game. It's a shooting game. I didn't want to say anything. But this idea that we should just like, suddenly, we've gone through 30 plus years of our lives where eye-to-eye contact with other men is a scary, dangerous thing. And now let's sit across from each other. and have a deeper meaningful conversation.

This is where like blowing up the expectations of what vulnerability looks like. It doesn't need to look the same for everybody. There are some men who love this. There are plenty who have been terrified of it. They're not socialized into this world and it's a weird conversation. And so playing pool with them, I suddenly get crazy information, you know, coming out of them. Because their hands are. And it's like men sheds.

This is a perfect example. It's like, oh, my hands are busy. I'm doing something. And now I can be free to not be afraid. Yeah, like part of, obviously I mentioned that I get to come here and vent every week and we do that. But like part of the journey that I'm on was, okay, well, what do I do at home now? Like I'm, you know, I'm a parent at home, but is that my whole identity now? And like, I'm going to give my race league a shout out here that I managed to fall into as an online race league.

But I find that once a week we catch up and all of a sudden, all nine or ten of us are just getting the shit off our chest while we're, It's a front. It's always a front. This is the thing. Yeah, right. And it's funny because we're in different countries, different states or whatever, but all of a sudden we're having conversations about what's happening with you, what's happening with you, what's happening with your family. Oh, my kid just walked in. And all of a sudden, there's this conversation happening. But you do need an instigator. I do find that if you get all of the guys, like someone has to be the banter breaker. Yeah. You know, because, and I'm off in the guy and then I get kicked out of the WhatsApp group. But I think there's something to be said for like, if someone can show that it's okay and it's possible to just share something, then you get this reciprocal nature.

And it happens, you know, and that's kind of the best thing about sporting teams, which community elite, whatever. It's this sense of camaraderie and togetherness, which is like, you know, we have each other's backs. And, you know, getting to the point where that means more than just in a scrum, it's like, who is the. this person. And I think, like, that's where we're coming to when it comes to men's health more broadly, is understanding that this is not just a physical manifestation. We have to know who we are and where we're going as men, you know, psychologically, socially, emotionally. And I just hope that we're going to get to the point where men can sit around with one another and not have, we don't need, like, deeper meaningfuls. This idea of, like, mental health conversations

is like in the dark, in the corner. It's like just... That's how I do it. But you're bouncing. This is the thing. It's like, actually, they're going to say something real full on and dark. You know, we just spoke about suicide and now we're here. It's like, you don't need to stay and sit in this thing forever. And so for the wives listening, the idea that there is this emotional communication that must have this heaviness for like 45 minutes and we have to unpack this thing. It's like, watch how he interacts with his mates. He's actually going to talk about the dark thing for two minutes and maybe come back to it half an hour later because it's too hard. It's. It's, It's too hard and it's not wrong to do that.

And I think we often, we give it a judgment around the fact that, you know, he's not talking enough, he's not explaining himself, he doesn't talk about his real feelings. Well, maybe you can say it in five words. I obviously can't, but other people probably can. Yeah, I find like some people, like I've got some mates that can be pretty closed off, but sometimes they'll just say something that makes, it would make sense to the closest person to them that actually is getting it off their chest. And it's like you've given them the space to do that.

You mentioned that someone's going to speak up. I remember when we had Aaron Woods on. He spent his whole life playing sport, and they're in change rooms with the boys, and they're talking, they're talking about all sorts of things except for maybe how they're all doing. I don't know if you do remember. Miscarriage. He was going through a lot of miscarriage, but didn't want to talk about it because he felt the taboo around it. But all it took was for a slip-off of him to talk about it in the change room,

that all of a sudden, all the people around him were actually dealing with similar things. Yeah. And it's like, okay, well, it sort of took that to get it out of everyone. Yeah. You know? And that's like the phenomenon consistently, you know, found across all of the work I've done, which is this idea of the perception gap, which is that we think that the way in which we view the world is not okay to be shown because men don't actually think like that.

They don't respond like that. And the locker room is the perfect example, which is like, actually, when a misogynistic joke is said and everyone laughs and no one says anything, if I went around one by one and asked them separately, what do you reckon about that? The vast majority of them are going to say, I didn't really like it. But I thought that he found it funny. This is like the fear of ostracism is the greatest, the greatest behavioral experiment that men are going through, which is like, I'm not going to say anything because I don't want to rock the boat because I might actually be alone and, you know, without the mates who I need.

talking about being alone for any dads that might be listening, and I know I felt a little bit inadequate about the fact that that transition into fatherhood was a transition that made me feel lonely. What are some of the elements of being a dad that contribute to feeling lonely? As we spoke about, identity transformation is massive. So you actually become lonely because you're isolating from yourself. You're becoming a new person and your priority shift and trying to reckon with that is a really difficult thing. And so, as I said, there's grief and loss, and that means that you become lonely internally in many ways. There's also the fact that the first few months postpartum are just hectic. And they are isolating naturally because

you need to be at home. Your baby can't be in the sun. Like, there's just certain practicalities. And there's also, like, there's only so many visitors you can have because you're exhausted. And so that's a fundamental thing, which means the first thing. is a very useful mechanism to actually, and it often doesn't require a lot, whether it's a text or a call or something, to just have an anchor with someone, you know. And then I think that what happens after that is, is that idea of trying to look after everyone else but yourself. And so slowly but surely that, you know, weekly pub night or the footy game that you were going to do just falls off rather than going, actually, this is the thing that I'm,

going to put first, rather than an extra hour of work, I'm going to tell my wife, can I do this thing and what can we do to kind of make that dance happen? It's typically about priorities, but it really requires during pregnancy, as I kind of said, to realize that things are about to change and to go, how do I want to grow with this? How do I want to adapt? And am I willing to admit that I might not actually have the same level of connection for the next couple of months? And that that's okay. because loneliness is an internal experience. It's something that you decide. You can be surrounded by people and feel lonely.

And so I think it's a matter of realizing that where is importance placed, you know? What matters to you and how are you going to go about actually achieving that rather than going, oh, I have this need, but there's no time for that, you know? So quickly, just on that, do you think that preempting that you're going to have a period there where you obviously got it, like you said, you can't leave the house? Do you think it's worth preempting that, okay, well, I'm going to have a period here where everything's going to change and I'm going to feel lonely, but it's just temporary because of the situation? There's definitely that, but there's also reframing the idea of it has to be lonely. Like, I went and did so many walks, like pram walks and the amount of conversations that I

had with Strange, like everyone suddenly wants to have a chat with you. And I think that that is like, there was a beautiful, like, community building exercise that I really didn't expect. And so if I look back now, I'm like, okay, I didn't see my mates as much, but suddenly Hugh on the end of the street wanted to have a discussion every second day. And it's like I started to build something else. So again, it's not going, oh, things must look the same. Yeah. Why don't I have what I had? It's going actually maybe something else is going to appear and being open to that as well. And also as well, like, as, like letting go of what you had before kids doesn't mean you're going to let it go forever, right? You can pick

that back up again. But yeah, obviously, you start to build different relationships, like you said, on walks and all sorts of things, because you're trying to, essentially you're having a family. That's what having a family is, right? You've got to concentrate on that and yourself, and you might have to just briefly put those friendships. Like, I know you mentioned before, like, those friends that weren't having kids, we're in different stages of life. It's like, you might have to just park that for now. And that's the thing. It's a dance. Some things get turned down. Some things get turned up depending on the day. And it's, you know, the idea that I did, I've done the same thing that I did yesterday to help my wife and today it wasn't enough. And yesterday it was. And

yesterday I said, gag, gaga, gaga, and he loved that sound. And today he's fucking crying. And I'm like, I can't go, but what about yesterday? Like that rigidity is the, the breakup for us. We have this idea. It's like, why is this not moving in this direction rather than saying every day, every hour might just look a little different. And having that flexibility is the way to survive, really. Dr. Zach, I've been wanted to say that for a long time. We had a huge response to the call out for people to submit questions for this episode. Unfortunately, we cannot answer every single one, but these are some of the most common ones. And without question, the most common response that we had from mums about their partners

was the fact that, and I'll phrase it as one of the questions came through, I have an introverted husband. He is struggling and he needs to talk. but he won't any suggestions. And that is 90% of the submissions that we had from Dota's were the fact that how do I get my husband to open up. There's an immediate instinct there, which is like, I have to crack him open. You know, I have to find a way to get this thing out.

It always has to, and this is the same thing with therapy, it has to come from him. He has to have a motivation to want to share. And so you being like, and then and what? and that is the worst way to get anyone to share what's happening with them. And so I do think that it's a matter of trying to find the language that doesn't pathologize and suggest that there is something wrong that you're really worried about because that leans into the burden idea that, you know, something is, you've failed somehow. And instead getting to the point of saying, I actually am feeling the ripple effect

of what's happening here. I think that the friendships that, you really cared about previously have kind of fallen away. I've noticed it and we're feeling it because you're not yourself. You're not yourself and we want you to be able to feel like you can be the best version of yourself. It's like strength based. It's the idea of like I want to help you get to where you want to be. And that means that he can take ownership rather than you're trying to shake distress out of him, you know? And so I do think that changing the orientation of the of like, why doesn't he share with me to firstly listening to some of those cues? Because everyone is sharing something, even if it's hidden.

It comes out in little ways. You need to go looking for it. Do you think, I know that when Laura would be like trying to approach a conversation, I would say, I'm fine. Do you look at certain silos of their life where you can do digging to be like, well, how is it going with work? Has something happened there? How's it going with those friendships?

Are there silos that you can say to, people like this is where you can do your digging. Yeah. And what are they? Yeah, I think that as I said, generic statements are not useful in any way because then it is like, oh, everything is fucked. Like that's not a good way to start. So yeah, talking about friends, work, exercise, diet, you know, alcohol use, like all of all of those big pillars, I think are really good entry points. But it is a matter of also realizing that you might not be the best person to have that conversation. in the same way that mums are always like how do I talk to my boy about this thing I'm often like it might be an uncle it might be the football coach it might be the idea

that you hold that as his wife and you need to be the one to get this out of him I don't think that's too much pressure for you as well and so I do think that trying to talk about your relationship on the whole like the amount of men who go into couples therapy and start to do the work there because it's not about them you know it's like maybe there's there's a way that you can talk about yourself and the impact that this is having on you and how you're going with things and try and actually have a dialogue rather than an interrogation. It's also the idea that I know he's struggling but he doesn't is a super disempowering entry point to a conversation. How would you change that sentence? So if my wife came to me

and said, I can see you're struggling and it sort of takes the power out of me there. What phrasing can my wife use that can not essentially be so accusatory. Yeah. Well, my wife does it a lot and she's there of it, so thank God. But the idea of like what can we work on to make life a bit easier for you? Like that's immediately going to what are we going to build? Building is great. Growth is great.

Strength is great. Rather than saying this is fucked, you're broken. We need to fix this together. Instead going, what can we make, you know, a bit easier in your day to day? What can we take out? Do you need to go and see your mates? And what do you think that will do for the next week? It's like try and have the conversation, especially try and have the conversation pre-crisis, try and have the conversation not before bed when he's exhausted. It's like, we don't pick our times with this stuff either. We don't pick our time or our language. And I think this growth-oriented, strength-based conversation that is also like really focused on action. He's like, what are we going to do? What are we going to do about this? Rather than let's sit and have a discussion. about what friendship means to you. It's like, who is your best mate? Get him on the fucking phone, the end.

Like, that's what I do in therapy. I'm like, call him now, you know? Yeah, my wife says to me and breaks it down a little bit where she'll be like, well, instead of making it, how am I feeling in general, it'll just be about that day. And sometimes I find that actually really helps me. Like, I was having a shit weekend. I don't know what it was.

Just something in my brain wasn't working properly. And I think she knew that the whole weekend. It sort of got to yesterday, a long weekend. And she was just like, how are you feeling to that? Like she had noticed it, but hadn't mentioned it, but then just wanted to know how I was feeling today. And I was like, I actually feel really shit. And it's just slipped in. It's not, it's not this let's go and have a chat.

Sit down, conversation. You think about being a boy. It's like, and your parents sit you down. It's like, no, you want to like be driving on the way to football and she's looking at you through the rearview mirror. And it's just a throwaway comment. Yeah. That's how this stuff should kind of be. Because then you don't feel this burden to like get it together.

I recall, I was just walking out of the kitchen. after cleaning the kitchen. And she was like, how are you feeling today? And I was like, actually, feeling shit, I'm not sure what it is. But it gave me a space to just say, I don't know what it is. But just so you know, I'm not feeling 100%. Yeah. We have some more questions.

Sorry, I sidetrack that guys, as I do quite often. Are there some dads that like the idea of being a dad, but not actually being one? Oh, sadly, yes. But that comes down to everything we've been talking about, which is that the realities of being a dad are complex, are potentially difficult, are beautiful, and are not spoken about. And so when it's like, oh, I just, I want kids, I can't wait. Whenever I, you know, early on, I remember being in my 20s and having chats with people like, oh, I just want to be a dad, I want to have a family.

Yeah, I thought I wanted six kids. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm like, what does that look like for you? Early days, man. I'm like, what does that look like? You know, like, what is being a dad? And they're like, oh, I just want to play footy with him. And I think actually getting into that nitty-gritty of like what this means because then that that means when you get to actual fatherhood you're not like oh shit this isn't what I was promised yeah in fact I'm now like changing nappies I'm gonna fucking masses let's go this is great and so it's having different task orientation in many ways where success is not tied to oh I'm gonna be the fun dad or I'm gonna play footy with him or I'm it's in fact in the day-to-day minutia which can seem really boring

if it hasn't been spoken about at all. But I really hope that dads can get to the point where they go, oh, it's not this pipe dream that is really disconnected from my reality. It's in that day-to-day grind that I'm wanted to lean into. I'm going to generalise here massively. But I think I see it a lot where dads will have a short temper. They get frustrated. They raise their voice.

And then they turn to mum and go, well, I'm not doing a fucking good job. You do it. You're better at it. How can moms encourage those dads to still, you know, be in there clocking up the hours and trying when they want to just back out from being a parent? Yeah. Like that's fundamental emotion regulation, which is like how do you deal with distress? How do you deal with things not going your way?

And realizing that you clocking off and just saying, mom, this is your responsibility, it's like that is the vast majority of parenting and just throwing up your hands and saying this isn't for me, I've tried. Like, adaptation is everything. Find a way to crack the code. You know, again, like leaning into the strength, it's like, okay, some days it's just not going to happen because you're exhausted and, you know, everything's tough and some days your partner will have more in the tank and vice versa. But saying, like, this isn't my game, you know, we were talking before around this idea of supportive partners. I hate that term, the idea of, like, present dads. All of these hands on dads, hands on dads, exactly. All of these terms.

Oh, yeah. Oh shit, change your name. Changed your name. Changed your name. Walked into that. But that idea of like, oh, no, doting is cute. But the others are like, there's a fundamental underlying expectation there, which is like, oh, you are breaking the norm. Congratulations for putting them in the ergo baby and taking them for a walk. Everyone should line up and bow down to you. I hate that. I hate that because it's, It's so undermining. And I don't know why dads aren't like railing against this idea that like, Bravo for doing the simplest things. And that's the same thing when it comes to when you're having a a shit day rising above that and going, I can do more for my kids right now than I can probably do

for myself, you know, is a beautiful thing. The person who throws their hands up, right, doesn't know the feeling of what it's like to keep at it and get it. Oh yeah. And when you get, I just got goosebumps thinking about that. You keep at that. And I was, I'll put my hand up. I was one of the first to be like, this is all too fucking hard. I'm not good enough, right? I mean, that was my own problem I had to deal with.

But since that, and especially now as my kids are, now Oscar's coming to the footy with me and doing these things, which was the, which is the pipe dream that we spoke about. But I put the work in to get there, right? And it's so much sweeter now that the work is being put in. in to get to these little things. So it's like what I might have gone, you need to do this, babe, because I can't do it. I'm like, fuck it, I can do this too. Right. And I used to be so hard on myself and still am.

But I'm actually benefiting from that now where it's like, it's so much sweeter when you don't throw your hands up. Oh, yeah. To throw on a sport analogy, if I may. Why not? The goal is, and it doesn't happen all the time and sometimes it's never going to happen, but there's nights where you do get through dinner, bath, put them to bed, give them a hug. They say, I love you. You get that little bit of affection, no blowups, no tantrums.

Oh my fucking God, that feels good. Better than sex. Yeah. Wow. Like it is, mastery. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, that, that is, that is, that is the fuel. That is, that is, there is no greater feeling as a parent I find when I have those moments. And that's what I'm chasing. When they call dad instead of mom that one time. Oh. Fucking yeah. I earned that. Yeah, you went that. Exactly. Exactly. So, anyway, next question. Sorry, sorry, sorry, I've heard that men can get PPD. Is it true? And if so, are the signs the same for mum as they are for dad?

Yes, many men can get PPD. We've spoken about that loneliness, that isolation, that disconnection. You know, I think this idea that it's going to be his bedridden is on the couch, he's sad and hopeless and not willing to talk is, you know, that's a subgroup. But currently, estimations are about like one in ten dads go through this. I think that's a massive underestimation because we're not looking for the right. things. Male depression looks like, often, risk-taking, irritability, violence, drug-taking, you know, anger, like things that are condoned as like male-specific behaviours, this external

rather than internal. You've got all these internal feelings and you push them down as much as you can and then they explode and avoidance, you know, just like, I'm out, I can't do this, it's too much, just constant overwhelm, I think is something that happens a lot. So the onset it why it happens, how it happens can look really different for lots of dads, but it often is tied to that shift in identity and that grief, which is like, things have shifted underneath me. I was not aware that this was going to happen. And now I have to say goodbye suddenly to all of these parts of myself that I loved. And I don't know what I'm walking into. And so immediately that becomes scary and I kind of hate it. And so that transition is going to be depressing for many,

rather than going, as I said, yes, parts of myself have, you know, been set to see, but so many doors are going to be open now. And like seeing that opportunity and having these conversations about who I'm going to be, what type of dad I'm going to be, how I'm going to show up, what my kid means to me, how I'm going to, you know, take part in day-to-day activities. All of that is purpose-building and is defensive against depression. Here's another one. Husband has OCD and having kids exacerbated his thoughts on bad things happening to us.

Any tips to manage? Like therapy is a go for that because that's, you know, our bread and butter, and we deal with that really well. OCD is something that psychology has mastered, I think, out of many different things. We've gotten that down pat. And it's a matter of challenging those thoughts and actually leaning into pretty, you know, complex behaviours that it's really a matter of like doing a behaviour.

behavioral experiment and going, okay, you think that this thing is going to happen. You know, I had a client once who was afraid of holding knives because he thought he was going stab his mother. And it turned out that it's because he loved his mom and he'd lost his dad early on. And it's like this fear of if my mom is gone, I'll have nobody. And so your brain starts to play tricks on you. And so really, it's a matter. And all we had to do is like get him holding knives, you know, therapy is filled

of- Like exposure therapy. Precisely. This is often the way. This one hits a little close to home for Ash, but this mum has written in and said that her husband would have between four to six beers every night. In addition to smoking weed, she wants to bring up that being an issue with him, but is afraid of the conflict that will arise if she brings it up. This is really tough. It really is, and it's something happening in households across the country. I'm interested, Ash, if your partner spoke to you about

this or it had to be like a self-realization that this is getting out of control? For me, I've been pretty aware for a long time that I have had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. I can, I mean, April had brought it up with me in the past, which I was quite defensive. I think it comes down to you've got to realize it yourself. I think... What made you realize? Do you remember?

I was a fat slob. That's how I felt about myself. I was a fat slob. And I was... But that can lead to more fat slobbery. It can. It also, I think at the time, I put it down to that I wanted to have a break. We had a guest on a long time ago, Ben from Ben and Zara, who was 10 years sober.

He's 10 years sober now. But he said something that didn't go away with me. It stuck with me for so long. He said to me, he woke up and the party was over. Wow. That just sat with me for so long. And I knew times when my drinking was impacting. my family and I would cut back. I would find other avenues to keep it away from them. I would

start to isolate. I'd start to hide it. And I was having, I was ticking all these boxes that I was like, this can't be healthy, right? And I think one day that message from Ben came to the forefront. And it was like, is the party over, Ash? And I think once I had started to retract from alcohol and see the benefits that it was actually giving me and doing for my family, that it was a byproduct of how healthy that it's become. But I could see that April was similar to this person where it was she didn't want to say something

because it was kind of like, didn't want to feel like the nagging wife behind it all and also didn't want to feel like it was going to cause conflict because it would have. Because it wasn't my idea. And I can happily admit that. Sure. So how do we speed ramp this self-reflection? Because I don't know there's so many moms out there who are like, I pray that my partner will have that realization that the party is over. It's super hard to do. I think that realizing the impacts and really getting into the fine details of the impacts of his drinking and being like, because I often think that they don't think that you know, you know, what's happening the next day and like and being able to say, here is a list of all the things that I have noticed. that happened the day after you've been drinking that has an effect on me and in our daughter,

for instance, here are all of these things. And understanding that the drink is actually typically not the problem, it's the vehicle. And what is underlying that, which is often a sense of failure, I need to get out of here, I need to avoid, I need to distract, I don't feel like I'm good enough. Whatever those things are, that is what needs to be dealt with, you know, fundamentally. Mine was escape. I wanted to escape. I wanted to escape. the situation that I was in and that was, I found that I thought this is escaping it, but in fact, it wasn't. It was suppressing it and then the people around me were having to deal with me being a

dick about it. Sure, but having a discussion around the escape, I think, is a way more fruitful exercise. For sure. Like, what are we running away from? And being like as a wife, I want to get the fuck out of here often, but I can't sometimes. And so it's like, how do we, and having that reciprocal discussion about the fact that this is tough. We're both finding it tough in different ways. We're both coping in different ways. And that is having an effect on the unit. So how are we going to find a way through

this? And being like, you need to go cold turkey now is never going to be a good mechanism. So working with him, you know, creating that sense of unity where we're up against this thing, we're going to work together to try and solve it. Again, it's action-oriented, its growth mindset. like you're deficient and broken. I think that's the way forward. We have taken up a lot of your time. Yeah, Zach. Sorry about that.

So, sorry. But we want to say thank you so much for jumping on the episode. It is the first time that I've spoken to a clinical psychologist and I'm like, I want more of this. Yeah. Thank you so much. And of course, thank you to Movember for making this happen, of course. So just tell us a little bit more about this.

We will leave links in the show notes all about this. It is the more than a provider. Yeah. It's a new report on fatherhood, Australian fathers, on health identity and experiences of parenthood. And it's really just all of the stuff we've been speaking about today, that really complex world that dads are finding themselves in now. New dads, old systems, really. We need new systems. We need to be fighting for what paternity leave looks like, routine mental health checks, dad groups, like all of this infrastructure to support us and also be having the conversations behind the scenes around what does it mean to be a dad today?

and not just trying to inherit things from previous generations, but building something new for us. So many dads are going to benefit from the work that you were doing, Zach. So thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Thanks, guys. Ash, do you remember when we said that we would never talk about giving advice? Do we say that?

Is that what we used to say? I think we said it every week. I don't think we ever said that, actually. Only 230-something times. Fair. Actually, do you know who I blame for this? Who? The listeners.

Because we asked them, we said, Do you want experts? And they said, no. And then they said, yeah. It was like my mum saying, do you want to beef Wellington? And I was like, ugh. And then she serves it. And I was like, give me more.

Give me more of that sweet, sweet stuff. But it's great to have someone like Zach on. But it's so great to have someone like Zach on because I know that there are so many parents out there who are going to benefit from the information that he's given us. And it is men's health week. So check it on yourself, check on on the other men around you. And of course, the dads. And visit Movember.com for tools.

resources and support. They are such a great charity. So huge thanks to them for making this set possible. And if you have enjoyed this set, please leave a review. Subscribe if you will, or you can join us on socials at Two Donating Dads, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, or you can email us at Hello at Two Donutadads.com. Just a little note that this episode now, all the guest episodes, are available in long form video format on YouTube. But if you are going to watch it there, make sure you still listen as well. You had me at Longform. Let's get out of here. Get out of here.

Two Doting Dance podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gatigal Land.