Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #238 Jackson Wray: The Dad Every Parent Can Learn From

Episode Date: June 28, 2026

We've had plenty of parenting experts on the podcast lately and while we've loved every bit of advice they've shared, today's guest brings something just as valuable. Jackson Wray isn't a doctor or parenting guru. But he's an expert in showing up every day for his daughter, Frankie. Frankie is four years old and lives with severe cerebral palsy, blindness and epilepsy. While many might expect Jackson's story to be one of heartbreak, it's actually one filled with love, gratitude and positivity. Together with his wife Alex, Jackson shares glimpses into their family's life, and it's impossible not to be inspired by Frankie's determination and joy. She continues to prove that her diagnosis doesn't define what's possible. This conversation is full of perspective, hope and a reminder of what really matters in parenting. We hope you love it as much as we did. It's one that will stay with you long after it ends. If you'd like to follow Jackson, Alex & Frankie's story you can do so here.  If you'd like to buy a Frankie t-shirt to support a charity that helps her you can get them here. If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads  Hosts: Matty J & Ash Wicks Producer: VicSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ash, this may surprise you. Nothing surprises me. But I scroll on social media quite a bit. I can hear that thumb clicking. Do you know what I clocked up? Guess how many hours I had? Listen, ready? There was one night recently.

I was scrolling as I often do, as I unwind after the kids are gone to bed. And I've had my dinner in the kitchen is clean, for the record. And I came across a video where I was like, holy shit. It brought me to tears. Unexpectedly those ones, aren't they? Like one second I was watching someone mowed. the lawn as a like before and after. And the next thing I was watching the most beautiful moment of a dad, Jackson Ray, who was just waking up his daughter, who was getting up from a nap,

and she was just so ecstatic that her dad was in the room. And what made it even more special is the fact that their daughter, Frankie, has a number of health issues, including cerebral palsy. She is blind and she also has epilepsy. Yes, Matt, it's a lot to take on. But her dad, Jackson, who is our guest today, he oozes positive. about their situation. For me, it's so important sometimes to hear other parents' situations, because it's so important for me to have perspective on my parenting journey. There are so many little minor frustrations that I have each day that I'm like, oh, this is so hard. But when you talk to Jackson and you start to understand what parenting looks like for himself and his wife, Alex,

it is so inspiring to look at how they tackle parenting and their outlook on it as well. Yeah, Matt, you can't help but smile when you see it. those beautiful videos that his wife Alex shares on Instagram. You can't help a smile on Matt when you see those videos pop up. And having Jackson in here, he is such a legend. So please enjoy this episode. And look, it does get a little bit emotional

at times. So my advice is that you have some tissues on hand. Let's get into it. Welcome back to three doting dads. I'm Maddie J. I'm Ash and I'm Jackson Ray. And this is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good. It is the bad. And the relatable. And of course,

we have to say, no advice will be given by Ash and myself. Jackson, however, loophole. You can, you are allowed to give advice. Thank you. I'm glad I got your blessing. We usually start this episode to figure out a little bit about the man.

And do you recall the most trouble you got in as a child? Believe it, I was probably quite a pretty good boy for the majority of my time. I don't believe it. I would. Single mum, good boy. But one time I was on a football tour in New Zealand and I was underage as well. Can I just ask quickly? Yes.

AFL league or union? The Union Boy. Union boys, they're lovely. Rugby yorny. It is now, that 20-something odd years ago before Johnny Wilkinson kicked those field goals, it was a bit of, it was a bit more fun. But, yeah, I was in New Zealand and obviously on a football tour and bought some booze underage. And a couple of the young fellas took off from the cops.

Oh, sugar. Yes. So I don't know whether I'm meant to be saying this and whether someone's going to come knocking on the door. I'll ask you solicitors. But, yeah, it was certainly an experience. experience and a time. Did you have a fake ID? Or how did you buy?

No, I did not have a fake ID. Yep. You just looked very old. I just looked old, big beard, that type of thing. I kind of look like I do now. Yeah, because what's your background? Or my mother's side's from Cyprus and my father's side is straight in English. So you've got like a little bit older.

I don't want to say it. Say it. Say it. Say it. Say it. Say what are you going to say. Yeah, wow. You look great for your age is what I'm trying to say.

Wow. How old do I look? 20? Just chime on. Thank you. Thank you. I think. Don't believe anything he says.

What is the legal age in New Zealand? I think it's 12. I thought so. I love it close to. Yeah, yeah. They were like, you don't need ID. No. What are you running for?

My memory says I didn't even ask for ID from memory. No, you wouldn't. My recollection is I didn't even get asked. Not that I had one, but I definitely didn't get asked. And then did you get in trouble? Did you run or you stayed? No, I didn't get it to the run. I bought alcohol for others.

Right. And then I went somewhere else. And they got caught drinking in the park. And they did the runoff from the cops. Oh. Yeah, well, park party, hey? Also, when you're young, it's one of those things that, like, if you just stay put and pretend like you're not doing anything naughty,

the cops will just walk past or drive by. Most of the time, or they'll just, like, keyboard out. But when you run, the cops are like, well, now we've got to chase him. Yeah, you're like, fuck you! Yeah, you got a bolt. Yeah. Yeah, I guess flight of flight, right? So those boys, yeah, took off and I got into a lot of trouble.

Okay, from mom, dad, who? School, mom. Luckily not the police. Because they kind of, you're on a football tour, and obviously someone. They're not real cops over there anyway. Listen, you say what you need to say. I'm not going to be more about conversation.

I'm waiting for that and come back. You'll be a bit of strife after that one. But so school got me in a bit of strife. Mum got me a bit of strife. But yeah, I think from a, I don't know what happened legally from anything in the bad. I'm all kids at that point. So that was probably the one and only time that I ever really flirted with the law that's

caught that. Wow. Single mum as well. Jackson, what were you doing? No, bad, bad son. Sorry, mum. Sorry, my mum. My mum was there too, so probably protect me afterwards,

so I think I was all right. How did she punish her? I got a very stern talking to. That's pretty good. I got heat with a spoon. I had a stepfather who did those types of things, but my mother was very stern to me, but not in a very loving way rather than a...

Was she, like scary stern, do you think? No, I just didn't want to disappoint. I think it was probably what it was. It was more disappointing her, given everything she'd done for me and given to me, so it was more about disappointing her rather than a fear of, I guess, violence maybe, like a spoon or whatever it may be. So it was a little bit more of that rather than, yeah, like you're going to get whacked for

that. It was more like, fuck, I've really fucked up. And my mum's disappointed. And that was probably where I was like, all right, I'm a bit of a bit of a strifey. I always think, how can I get to the point where my kids respect me enough to not want to disappoint me? I know, I said that, and they just laugh at me. I'm like, I'm not angry.

It works better. It works better. The disappointed piece. It works better if you are because we don't respect you. The disappointed piece is obviously a lot scarier than the smack. Right? Yeah, I think so. And I think my mum probably gave me freedom and said, like, I trust you.

And if you fuck the trust, then that's when you're in trouble. Rather than going, you can't do this or you must do this or like a control perspective. And I think that's probably, that was instilled. It was like, all right, well, I've got the rope and I've chopped myself with the rope to an extent. And that was when I knew, I was like, yeah, I'm in strife. but I think it's that it's that you give the kid the leeway. I'm here, I'm giving advice already. I'm like, tell me more.

But it was like, yeah, I think it's give. My mom was always like, I trust you, tell me what you're doing. I'd rather know what's going on and I'd rather know everything. And I won't be as angry as if I find out from someone else. Well, that's when the trust is broken. I think trust is probably the thing that I had with my mum growing up. Yeah, that's good. I'm like locking this in mentally.

Because it sounds so kind of intuitive to be like, I'll give you the freedom. I know, my kids would fucking exploit that. I think obviously that was as you grow older, right? Maybe. Like as you kind of getting into that teenage years, as a little kid, it was probably a little bit different. But my,

my recollection is more of my mum as I got into my teenage years and making sure that I didn't disappoint her. Do you remember when, at what point, you realize, oh, I really want to be a dad and have a family? That's a good question. I think I always knew I wanted to be a dad.

I just wasn't sure when I was ever going to be ready to be a dad. Growing up, I was always the one of my friends, like, you'd be the best dad. Like, that was kind of what I was, you're pumping my own. Go for it. Pump away. As you're buying alcohol for a hundred-olds kids.

See? Come on, kids. Give me a good. Yeah, rub my ego and off we go. But yeah, I think as a kid growing up, you kind of, you always, that was like the next step in life and that was a phase in life that you wanted to get to. But I don't think there was ever a moment where I went, all right, it's time. I think it was more, it just kind of, I always knew that that was a path that I'd like to have to have gone down. And then, yeah, obviously it came along, like about four and a half-odd years ago with the birth of Frankie.

Can we just quick step back, if you don't mind me asking Alex, your partner. Yeah. Where did you guys meet? We worked at Red Bull about 12, 13 years ago, probably something along those lines. We formed a really fast quick friendship. Like we were both in part in relationships outside of each other's beforehand. And then we were best of friends for a long time before anything kind of transpired, which I think given our story is probably really fitting.

The friendship is probably the foundation for what we have today, given the trials that we've been doing. kind of put under with our life, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a little while. Do you remember who raised it first, the prospect of having kids? I can't recall. I think we probably both knew it was a path to go down. I think Alex wanted them a little bit sooner than I did because body clock, women, that type of thing. And I was kind of in a position where I'd come out of a job, moved to the US for a little while, came back, started a new career. And so I wasn't in a position financially to go, all right, let's have kids and let's go.

I think it was more once I found myself in a little bit of a more stable position, that's when I was like, all right, now it's time. Now I can do it. And now I know that when I'm bringing someone in this world, I can give back as much as they take from me. Yeah. Do you remember how she told you she was pregnant? No.

So, yeah, sorry, yes, I do. But we tried for a little while to fall pregnant and it didn't happen. We ended up with cats because she was feeling a void, and then we got rid of the cats and like kind of that. I don't want to know how you got rid of the cat. I don't want to know how you go right. No, no, I think they're still alive there. A very lovely woman took the two cats that we had while we were living in apartment,

living during COVID. But, yeah, so we tried for a baby, didn't have it. And then Alex went and had an endometriosis, like a laparoscopy's operation. And then she fell pregnant with a chemical pregnancy that first month after, which was, like, exciting for a minute. And then obviously you ride that wave up and down. And then that happened. And then the following month we tried again, and she fell pregnant, which was pretty exciting.

Did you feel ready then? Yeah, I certainly felt ready. I think we knew, because we'd had a few attempts that didn't happen. Like obviously, a month you try and try. No, nothing happens. And then we had that month where it happened but didn't happen after the operation. And then when she felt pregnant, I think we were certainly ready for the baby at that point. And during the journey of Alex being pregnant, all your scans and tests, everything was showing up that things were good?

Or was there a point? No, so good question. We did everything we possibly could. Like, they give you the test. They asked you if you want to do genetic screening and all those types of things. And we thought everything went really, really well until Alex's waters broke at 30 weeks. That's really, yeah. Yeah, so waters broke at 30 weeks, which was pretty scary, obviously, because this is 10 weeks to go.

We just finished our birthday in class. Alex was like, perfect. I'm ready to have a baby. And literally that night, her water's broke, which was not, obviously, planned. And then the doctors wanted to keep the baby in. I kept saying the baby, but wanted to keep Frankie in. So basically, Alex was kept in hospital for five days. where they injected her with steroids for the child to kind of get the lungs to go

because the lungs aren't developed at 30 weeks and a few other bits and pieces. So were they giving you a time frame of like, we want to try and keep you in here for... As long as possible. Really? But it was really surreal. Yeah, it's a very surreal experience. And I think before I came to see you guys, I was talking to Alex and kind of looking back at like everything that's happened.

And I'm trying to remember a lot of it. Because you kind of start to compartmentalize it and go, I'll just deal with that later. I'll deal with that later. which I think most people do do. Sometimes with Marley, I'll be talking to someone and with my wife Laura, and she'll say part to the birth that I'm like, did that happen? And she's like, yeah, you're remember. You get so much.

Yeah, you're like. You don't remember. You just forget. So we spent three or four days from memory in hospital trying to get the baby in because her waters were broken. And apparently, because as long as Alex was still producing fluid, the baby could stay in. And then at, I think, day five or day six, they sent, after the water's broke, they sent us home.

Like, you're okay. Everything's going to be right. Just stay relaxed and whatever else. And then that night, Alex, is like, oh, I don't feel very good. I think I'm just going to go to sleep. And I was like, you sure? I think you might be in labor. And she's like, no, no, no, I'm okay.

I'm okay. So it's probably like, eight o'clock at night. I was like, no, we're going to go to the hospital. So we get to the hospital and they're like, yeah, you're in labor. And we were meant to be delivered at Prince of Wales Hospital. And halfway through labor, they said, oh, your baby's too small. We're going to have to send you to RPA. So in the middle of Labor, they put Alex and Frankie, who was obviously still in her stomach,

into an ambulance and took off and I had to drive myself to RPA. That's probably like 11 or 1130 at night. Was this in the middle of COVID too? It was April. So kind of COVID had finished, but it was like at the end of that, like everyone was still wearing masks. There was still social distancing. It wasn't full lockdown. But when we got to the hospital, had to do swab tests, all that type of stuff.

And how are you feeling driving separately? I was fucking lost as. I was really like, what the fuck is going on? Like, kind of surreal. And I had some little fuckers egg my car on the way to the hospital too much. Yeah. These little fricking my car. Oh my God.

So anyways, that's neither here nor there, but it was just kind of, yeah, drive. Not now. Yeah. It's fucking days, really. So we drive, so we get to RPA. Everything's kind of okay. Ours dilating. And things seem to be going, I guess, to plan other than the fact

Frankie's going to be a premiere. and we kind of accepted that. And then so that night kind of rolls through until about three o'clock in the morning. And at that point, how's the line there getting ready? She's dilated. And the on-call OB hadn't arrived yet,

but what happened was she ended up having a cord prolapse from what we know, which means effectively that the umbilical cord comes out before Frankie's head. So the umbilical cord obviously is the oxygen supply and the umbilical cord pushes the head pushed on the oxygen supply. And so we had to have like an emergency emergency caesarean. Rorych just basically means, and I think I listened to your pod the other day

where you had an emergency, if I'm not mistaken, from a breach. We didn't even get a minute, basically button on the wall. Yeah. Everyone in. They come out of nowhere, too. They come out of fucking nowhere. But everyone in. So who, like the nurse presses.

So the OB wasn't there because our OB couldn't deliver because our OB wasn't registered at RPA. The Encore OB wasn't there at the time either because they hadn't got there yet. And so there was a registrar on court, or the registrar who was there, the registrar doctor, was feeling around. And then the nurse checked as well, and they called the nurse's nightmare. So effectively what happened was the nurse said press the button. They pressed the green button on the wall or the red button or whatever color it is. Everyone rushed in.

The nurse pretty much pushed her hand up Alex's vagina, pushed the baby's head back up to get the pressure off the umbilical cord. And then, yeah, they're all, everyone's in. The nurse gets, shapes out, Alex, look at me, look at me, look at me. I'm standing like a fucking ghost. I'm going, what the fuck is going on? Someone tell me what's going on. And then she gets rushed out on all fours, nurse obviously,

doing what she's doing. And I'm standing in this white room, no one's around, and it's just dead silence. And I'm like, what the fuck is going on? Like, where the, like, they're like a pit crew, eh?

They come out of nowhere. And then all of a sudden, like, you're up, you're out. And they're all gone. And I think from what I know. Obviously in that moment, Alex is a pro. Yeah.

But does anyone tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, just so you know this is... No, and I think because we had that birthing class that morning, and they were talking about forcip deliveries and vacuums and all these types of things. And I was like, oh, they're using forceps? And the lady's like, no, honey. And then they just took off. And I was standing this room by myself and I'm going, like, nobody's around. Like, I'm literally in a room, probably the same size as this, white walls, just standing there,

going, what the fuck? Haven't slept, as we all know. Like, you're delirious. and then, yeah, some lady probably about seven or eight minutes later comes back and goes, congratulations, you've had a little kid. Wow. So, fuck. Sorry.

No, it's okay. John not to cry. No, you're not, dude. I'm a fucking cry. So, like, if there's a place that you can cry, it's here, dude. And also, if you want any time at all. No, no, no, it's good. It's kind of nice.

I shouldn't say it's nice because it's certainly not nice, but it's good to voice and obviously get it out there, right? because there's no compartmentaliser. So, like I said, from the time they pressed the button to delivery, was from what I understand, like eight, ten minutes, something like that. They put Alex straight under, like straight to sleep, cut her open, pulled the baby out. And then it was probably about an hour, an hour and a half until I could see Frankie. And the first time I ever saw her, she was in a little...

Like incubator. You can take a second if you want Jackson's. I know, that's good, it's good. She was in a little incubator. she wouldn't have been much bigger than this. And she had probably half a dozen to a dozen wires hanging off her and she had a CPAP machine. So she was obviously being a help her breathing to be helped. And that was pretty difficult.

And then Alex, the first time Alex got to meet Frankie was on FaceTime. So I think as a family, we were quite robbed of that particular experience of like what you asked him before about being a father and how like when did you know and all those types of things. And obviously that's probably such a crescendo point in being a dad is being there cutting the cord, sharing that moment with your wife and your child. It's what you imagine it to be like in movies. You see what you see in movies. And listen, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of people that don't get that. But they get some level of that.

We've got none of that. Yeah. So that was, that's Frankie's birth kind of story. And from that point, we spent probably eight or nine weeks in Yiku in terms of, And we started at RPA and then we transferred to Prince of Wales and then Prince of Wales private. And that was a pretty tough like eight weeks because you have the child and then the baby doesn't get to come home with you. Like even your wife's kind of in a room. And where the way that Niki worked at RPA and I hope that none of you ever really have to truly spend some time there.

But the wards are upstairs and the babies are downstairs. So you're not really with your child. Yeah. Either you get to go and visit them and whatever else, but you're not with the baby. they're being taken care of amazingly by the nurses and the like, but you're not there. It's not yours and you're not sleeping next to it. Do you think there's, maybe there's not,

but do you think there's any, just mentally knowing that you're not even on the same floor, that the separation is even heightened more so. I think looking back at it, it probably is at the time you're just in survival mode. You're just going, fuck, I've had this kid, what the fuck's going on? The world is not, I mean, you've never prepared for a child,

I would think. But when nothing goes the way that it's meant to, I think you just kind of just go, I've just got to survive, I've just got to survive, I've just got to get through this. It's such a unique place and time to be in, right? Because even for myself, with Oscar was an emergency. But same thing. I didn't have all the information and you're in that headspace. Any delirious like you were saying before, then all of a sudden you're separated.

And then the thing that really weighs on my mind there where you say, well, you've got to, they don't get to come home with you, which I know Vic has spoken. about before. It must be just so heartbreaking. I think it is, but at that point in time, we were probably just going, fuck, at least she survived. I think that was probably where our headspace was. It was like, she was preemie. We didn't really know what her probability of survival of being such a small baby was in the first instance. But I think it was like, we've had a kid. It's not gone the way we wanted to, but nothing in life goes the way you truly want it to. And it was more like, all right, we've got her. She's not with us, but she's not with us, but she's

here, we'll get through this moment in time, and then we'll start our lives in Inverter Combs, right? So at this point, knowing that she's Premi, she potentially's had some time with a lack of oxygen. Has anyone given you any type of information on what impact that could have? No, so not necessarily. I think they said that the hull of the Apgas and the oxygens and all those things seem to have been okay.

And I think there's a, we'll touch on this in some time, but if she's under 30 weeks, they would have given her an MRI to check her brain. And she was just past that time, apparently, and whether that's, like I said, we've learned as we've gone on. But the MRI itself, well, probably would have shown a lack of white matter. But, yeah, so at that point, we didn't know that there was anything wrong. We just thought she was a preemie. Everyone said that things were like kunky dory.

She just had to stay nick her until she grew, keep her monitored. and then in eight, ten weeks we'll get her home and start again. How is mum recovering after? I mean, because we talk about the baby and stuff like that, but also mum's gone through this too. Yeah, so she was, she's stoic. My wife, Sue, Alex is superhuman, right? Yeah.

So she was just pumped that she had a kid, obviously. She'd had a cesarian, which we know is not the greatest of things, and the recovery time is a long time. But, yeah, she, like a lot of things, she takes it, just takes it in a stride and gets on with it because we've kind of, as time's growing up. on we've had to. But yeah, she, at that point in time, she was happy that she had a kid, didn't go the way we wanted to, but we had a little girl, Frankie. And yeah, she was in a pretty good headspace, all things considered. And then at what point in the weeks following,

did a test notify you guys that something wasn't what it had to do? So we took Frankie home probably eight weeks after her birth, so like in April. And then I'm a stubborn log and and I have a kind of tradition around, well, I wanted to create a tradition around my grandfather came from a small village in Cyprus, and he was christening in a church in his village, in a vet, I was christening in the same church. And he was still alive at that time. And I wanted to take Frankie to Cyprus to do that whilst the whole family was still together, because like I said, I'm stubborn and by the way of the highway sometimes, and I forced everybody there. But so we took the trip and she was probably two and a half or three months old at that point,

which I think in hindsight probably wasn't the right thing to do, but we didn't know any better. Can I just say, I took Marley. on a trip overseas when she was three months. Did she, where'd you go? I went to Europe as well. I don't know. Go on, say it. Must be nice.

Thank you. Very nice. So we did this little holiday, but Frankie was so temperamental and difficult and wouldn't sleep and wouldn't be on the boob and we went while we're over there. So it wasn't really a holiday. Obviously what the intention was it was going to be a holiday, but as things went on, she kind of got worse and was crying and just cool rest. less would not sleep, wouldn't boo, wouldn't feed, took it to the hospital and cyropist,

took her to the doctor, everyone's saying it's colic, it's this, it's that, whatever else. We weren't seeing any seizure activity, or at least we didn't know what a seizure looked like at that point in time. So we did that trip, came home, we were like, fuck, she's just a difficult kid. Everyone's kind of going, she'll grow out of it, she'll grow out of it. We took her to the ER a couple of times. And then Alex noticed, which, and again, everyone was saying colic, purple crying, all these other kind of things. And then Alex noticed her starting to do like these kind of like small little

twitches or tweaks. And then our film that like I said, our GP kind of said, hey, like it's nothing to worry about. The doctors at the hospital said nothing to worry about. And then Alex filmed it. And then we went back to ER and said, hey, this is what she's doing because it wasn't constant. It was kind of like in and out. And it's so important to get it on camera. Do you have to get it on camera? Because like I said, we were knocked back. And she probably was doing that a little bit. The seizures a little bit before when we last couple times went to ER, but we didn't have it on film, and she wasn't doing it when we're there, and they're like dismissive, you're just overly cautious parents, whatever it may be.

You can't get them to do it on demand as well. Yeah, but it's also, when they're that young, they're not in control of their body. And so it's such a fine line between it's just them moving about to having like what you know what was a seizure. She was like, she was pretty much jackknifing, so effectively what she was doing was she'd be like a normal baby playing around it. And then she'd lock her arms in, turn her head, and then kick her legs up. And so it was just like a full-blown, like, tick.

And so when we took her back to ER and we showed in the video, and like, you know when people say, oh, fuck, I hate sitting around in the ER. If you're sitting around waiting in ER, it means you've got nothing wrong with you. Yeah. We showed on this video and they were like, you ask, let's go. Yeah. So that was at about four months old. And then we probably didn't leave the hospital for a good two or three months again after that.

Wow. Yeah. What diagnosis were you given? So what happened effectively was they took us up to the neurology ward. They scanned her body with a blue light. I'm not sure why they did that. And then they booked us in that night or that day for a MRI. And what happens then, obviously, is they put the baby to sleep.

They scan her brain. They kind of wake up. And then you wait for the results. So we're kind of sitting around in this neurology ward. Doctors kind of in and out, in and out, in and out. And then they said, can you just come with us? And so we got taken into like a white, and again, fucking white room. It seems to be the place to go when something fucks up in the hospital.

But we get taken to this white room and I'll probably, here we go. I'll cry again. It's okay. And it's me and Alex, the neurologist and the neurologist is off-sider and then a social worker. And they sit down and they say, like, listen, like. Yeah. So it's really good. They said, oh, she's got a lack of white matter on the brain and we're like, oh, what the fuck does that mean?

And they said, like, we don't know what's caused it. So we can't tell you that it's cerebral palsy, but it is the equivalent of what cerebral palsy is, which is effectively a white matter loss, whether that's from injury or something else on the brain. And they weren't sure whether it was injury or a genetic cause. And I just remember just the whole world just span. And, yeah, that's a pretty fucking tough day. Alex and I gathered our thoughts. And I remember that we was sitting there and it was the first night and probably similar.

There was still a little bit of that kind of COVID-ness around, but they wouldn't let Alex and I stay at the hospital together that night. They said, listen, you two go home. Go home. Alex, we went to the hospital not thinking we had to pack a bag. So I said, let's go home. And I remember we get home after the fucking world has just collapsed and we both get in the shower together and we just sit in the shower.

We both sit on the floor in the shower for an hour just in tears. And she said to me this. She said, I remember you saying to me, like, what's going to be is going to be, and we will get through this. And fuck, I think we're still together. We're still here, so we're clearly getting through this. But, yeah, that moment in time was probably the worst experience I think I've ever had. And I called my mum that day, and I, and I, fuck.

I'm just going to tell you, it's so brave of you to be able to be this open and retell your story, Jack. I think it's more about making sure that others that go through something like this have, you know that it's going to be okay in some way. But I remember calling my mum and just going, I don't want to leave. You know, I was like, if she's going to be what the doctors are saying, she's going to be, the world's not fair enough to a person like that. And I don't want her to have to experience a life like that.

So that was a fucking very tough, tough time in our life. And that was before we found out that she lost a sight too. So it's another part of the story. But, yeah, it was not a very easy time for us. And I think the time that, like I said before, that Alex and I were friends before getting together probably really made us able to get through that moment a little bit better, I would think, a little bit more healthy because that friendship was the foundation for what we had. And being in a situation like that where your fucking world's upside down and you don't know what tomorrow is going to bring, you need that person behind you. you're next to you, holding your hand, supporting you, and you need to support each other.

And yeah, that time in my life was certainly, certainly the hardest and probably, I hope, is the hardest moment that I ever have to have. And I would never wish that on my worst enemy. When you're going through those tough times, is there anything that helped you? You know, if you're going down, you're spiraling about your circumstance.

And I think the hardest thing can be when the reality of life doesn't match up to what your expectations were. And when you think about that and you're struggling, what would help you? I always say this, like the sun is going to come up tomorrow, right? And you know that there are really beautiful moments in life that are really beautiful, and they will happen again. I think everybody has tough moments and everybody has peaks and troughs. And I think, yeah, it's just simply that the sun's going to come up.

And if it doesn't, we're all in trouble anyway. And I've said that quite a bit. it's that thing of tomorrow's a new day. Tomorrow might be shitter than the day before, but at some point something's going to turn, and you've got this little girl that's super reliant on you now. Like she doesn't come with a warranty. You can't give her back, not that you would,

but you're reliant on her. I think, yeah, maybe if she didn't make it, then things would be different, but certainly that having her there, knowing that the only thing that she has is Alex and I, probably gave us the strength to just keep going because you don't have an alternative. There's no alternative solution. Like what is your alternative?

It must be such a profound feeling to think, okay, well, like you said it, like Frankie has us and is going to rely on us so much. And it's sort of, it gives you another purpose, right? 100%. It's given me a complete purpose now in life. And I just want to go back to that time. You went home, you sat in the shower, you've tried to process that. Can you tell us a little bit what happens next?

I mean, for Matt and I who have never been through anything like this, let alone being able to talk to someone in such depth, and we do appreciate it. Thank you for having us, though. But, like, I'm interested to know what happens next. Sure. So, fuck, you, you, I took Alex back to the hospital, and then it just becomes doctors, tests, meetings, information, information dumb.

And for us, there wasn't a, like, like, like, all right, there's an injury on the brain. This is what it is. It was like it could be an injury or it could be genetic. So then you spiral again because you're like, all right, well, if it could be this or it could be that. And I think for us, it was more not having an answer made it a little bit harder, but you just try to information dump as quick as you can and pull as much info out on everything that's kind of being given. And you just have to learn to adapt to what's being put in front of you. I think that's what it comes down to is you just go, all right, well, the doctors start telling you this.

information so then you quick doctor Google or I don't think I mean AI was around but no one was really using it like I did lay war today but yeah so it was all about like doctor will say this quick deep dive until the next meeting what's that about and then like you're learning all these words and hearing all these things that you wish you never had to hear about yeah you must find yourself in a lot of information spirals you're doom scrolling info oh I couldn't yeah but you're not doom scrolling images you're doom scrolling info and just trying to absorb as much info as you possibly can about whatever that that doctor or that person had just told you about prior before the next person comes in.

So like I said, there was a lot of tests. That poor little thing was a pincushion blood test, urine test. You had to catch piss all the time just to make sure, like, all those types of things. I'm just trying to think of what it must be like when, because sometimes, and this is not an attack on healthcare, like doctors, but when they explain it. You guys don't have a bit of strife. I know. How would rural dogs doctors say how to do you?

But they just splurred it out like you know it all. And you're like every second word, you're like, can you just say that? Like, how do you spell that? I don't even know how that word. 100% PVLs and acronyms and all these things. And you're just going, like I said before. Say it again. What does that mean?

Running it down. PVL. I can't even say peri ventricular lucamalacia, which is effective. Wow. That was, give us that one more time. Very ventricular lucidimalusia. Wow. Like there's all these acronyms and words that you just doctor Google.

What's that mean? What's that mean? What's that mean? And before the use of AI or the AI wasn't kind of there at that point in time, that was what we were doing, was just Googling all these acronyms. What information were they telling you about, like, long-term impact? They didn't. And I think they do that selectively because they don't truly, I mean, the more you go on and I think that we have a beautiful health system. So please don't think this is, this is an indication of our belief. But I think it's more, they don't truly know when a baby is that size, what? the outcome is going to be because it's like a spectrum, it's a gamut, right? Like, there are people out there that have no brain with all due respect that,

and literally what I mean, like a physical no brain who have completely operational and functional, and they're people with full brains that are vegetables, right? So I don't think they're going to say to you, hey, your kid's going to be this, and this is the life expectancy, and this is what it is, because it's just not, it's just not how medicine I think works. Yeah, I mean, everyone's going to be different. A hundred percent. And so for us, it was, like I said, the doctors were going, oh, it could be this or it could be that.

Like, this is the spectrum of what the outcome is, the likelihood of the outcome is. And maybe they kind of play it down a little bit so that they don't just dump you with the reality of what your life's going to be rather than going, yeah, your kid's fucked politely. And this is your life and good luck and it's over. I think that they slowly drip feed you what you need to so you can process at least a little bit. Frankie's at how old is she now? She's turned four in April. And so... At like the three-year mark,

are they giving you any expectation of what her ability will be? It's funny, they don't say that, but when we go and catch up with the neurologist or the doctors or whoever, the specialist that we're catching up with, they will say she's doing more than we thought. So that's quite, that's quite reassuring or comforting. It means that obviously they had, like I said,

they were holding information back, I think, as you. But she's doing things that they didn't expect her to be doing. I saw the video where she was speaking for the first time. Was that something that you were expecting or were you always hoping for? I think you always hope for you. You hope for normalcy, right? You hope to have a child that's going to run home, run up to you when you get home from the office or from work or wherever it may be.

So you want that. And yeah, I think having an expectation of a child like Frankie will only make you feel really bad. Like it'll bring you down. So we have no expectations on her. It's not a fair pressure to put on her. We try our best to give her every opportunity to excel and do the most normal thing she possibly can, and that's talk and feed herself.

We bought her a walking machine, which is like a robotic gatewalker, to try and get her body moving. Whether she'll ever walk unassisted, who knows. But I think medicine's going the right way. And with AI and technology, like the other day we saw a robot that's effectively a walker with a gyroscope that will keep it. child like Frankie stable so she can walk by herself. Yeah, so from your question about like her talking, we don't have an expectation on her. That's not fair to do that to her. We want it. We

yearn for it because that's what you want as a parent. You want to see your child do everything that they possibly can. But when she does things, we're fucking through the roof. We're so excited about the simplest things and the inchstones rather than the milestones or the millerstones or whatever it may be, like any tiny little improvement for us. is fucking massive. What are those improvements? What are they? Like, just like, for example,

she, like, she can, now she'll bring a water bottle to herself. She can feed herself, feed a little bit. She can army crawl, say, mom and dad.

And there's a few more words coming into a vocabulary. Like, if she wants more food, she'll say more. Like, those are the types of things that we're starting to see now.

And it's taken a fucking lot of work. Like, a fucking lot of work. But the poor little thing, she doesn't like praise. So, like, when you, when you, like, she does something and you, like, Alex and I jump, for joy, she just, like, she shuts, she shuts down a little bit and, like, starts to cry. I don't know whether she thinks she's in trouble or she doesn't like being put on show,

but we're so ecstatic, but we have to kind of bottle it up. We have to control that emotion a little bit. We're just like, just pumping in the corner, but, like, five-five each other at the table. The baby's sleeping, you're like, can just, like, wave your hand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No noise. That's exactly what it's like. And so every moment where she does something that we're not expecting is a brilliant moment.

And it's probably, I would assume, because again, we haven't lived it, when your child takes the first step, how excited you are, or your child says their first, now I can say, a child says their first word. It's like a really fulfilling moment in time. And that's probably the part of parenthood that most people have kids for is to bring someone up, take care of them, look after them and make them try and excel in the world as best that they possibly can. It's funny those moments, like, out of nowhere hit you right.

Especially, I mean, for you guys that, I was going through all that and then celebrating those wins, it must be amazing to hear her say mom and dad. Yeah, mum, dad, da. Yay. Yay's her new one. Yay, that's so good. What is M for? It's D for.

And what is it like? Yeah, like, I think, you talk about, you know, what your expectation. are and you're trying not to have certain benchmarks in mind. But I remember when my girls, you know, that first time, like I'm a pretty needy parent and that... Give me what I know. I had you so you can give me what I want. It's funny.

And I guess we have a lot of non-parents also listen to the podcast. And, you know, what is it like for yourself? Not having expectations on what milestones she will be able to hit to then be surprised and hear the words, data, come out of Frankie's mouth. Well, it was mum. Mama first. Which apparently is easier to say. So it's no reflection on this side.

That's what I've heard as well. Who's the favorite? Mama. So there was a little bit of jealousy and envy. Let's call it, which is probably normal. It's a normal experience. We're in the same boat. When she said Dad, Dad, Dad, Dad, it was a really heartfelt, warm and fulfilling moment.

I think you definitely, as parents, like I said, you get these moments in time where you have a child or you think this is the way that your life's. going to go. So to get like a normal moment was really beautiful. I remember looking at Alex and I, I teared up a little bit about that particular moment and she was so smug about it too because Alex was like, yes, she's saying it both. And I, yeah, it filled me with a lot of warmth and I, and yeah, it's a moment that I'll cherish for the rest of my life. It's funny when you say like, it gives you just a bit of normality, which I think is so easy to underestimate what you, what you what yearn for?

Of course, we yearn for the normalcy. We don't have the normalcy. And like I said before, we're not here to compare to anybody else. But you have a child because what you want to be a parent because you want those normal things and you want that normal trajectory and pathway. And so, yeah, we really get these little glimpses of what the traditional, let's call it, parenting experience is like. And they fill us with so much joy.

And I think because we don't get it as much, we probably don't take it for granted as much, I would think. Yeah. And so when it happens. it's a real. The cameras come out. Frankie shuts down. And then we film it.

Then we send her the family and go, look, what's his own? But yeah, those moments are, you cherish, and I think we will cherish a lot more because we're not sure when the next one's coming. Yeah. How do you find other adults react to you guys when you're in public when you're with Frankie? That's a really good question. And I, you certainly get a mix of reactions.

I like to think that I'm quite oblivious to others and whether that's a good thing. or a bad thing, I don't know, but I know that Alex really notices the world around her from that perspective. And we've had really brilliant experiences where Alex, either ourselves or Frankie's got a couple of carers who do a couple hours a day and they're the most brilliant, brilliant, brilliant girls, will take her to the park and a grandmother and a little kid will come up and play her with Frankie or hold a hand or be really inquisitive. And that's the really beautiful side of it.

but then you see others that just fucking stare. Yeah. And they're just like, they're just looking and they don't like. And staring's okay because obviously, yes, sure, she's a little bit different and she's got little things on her legs to kind of keep her ankle straight and the like. But stare, look at the parents, smile, acknowledge and then stare back. Like, that's okay. But to look at just to fucking stare at a kid, like that's creepy.

Yeah. You know, sure, yes, she's different. And that's okay, but everybody's a little bit different. But, yeah, we search Alex particularly, it's a, it's a, it's a, trigger point when people just like... Yeah, I think as an adult, like, we both have toddlers and kids, and they don't know any better and they're going to stare and sometimes they'll be very inquisitive. My kids will.

Kids are okay. There's no longer than kids. And they want to know as well, because it's probably the first time they've seen something like that. But as a fully grown adult, staring at a child, for any reason whatsoever, it's just fucking weird and fucking stop doing it. 100%. I couldn't agree more.

I think back to your point about having toddlers that are inquisitive. like fucking come up and say hello. Like just say hey, let's go say hi. Like normalise that rather than making the kid go, oh, that's a fucking weird. Because then the kid's going to go, oh, I don't want to go near that. Or that's a bit odd or what the, like. So Alex is trying with everything that she's doing now. He's just trying to kind of like normalize it a little bit more.

And we're never going to be the first and we won't be the last. But I think getting people to appreciate Frankie's who Frankie is. But she's just a normal girl that wants to live the same experiences as that everybody else does. is probably the message that's that's come out of what Alex has started to try and do. Originally, she was doing it as a third person looking on our experience so far. So I kind of used to put little videos together of like our holiday. So she quite likes that creative side. Like that's kind of what she does.

And when Frankie and all the stuff happened with Franks, we kind of, she pulled back a lot. And then to kind of process and start the grief process, she built herself a little video of looking, back at us from a third party. Yeah, well, that's how I found you. Wow. Yeah, so she did that to kind of help her grief process. And then in saying that she started getting messages from other mothers or other dads that were saying, hey, like, you've put into words what we don't know how to do.

Yeah. And then so it's gone from her using that as a grief piece to going, all, actually, is there a way that we can kind of normalize for us what we're going through? and also show others that are behind us in the same journey that things can be okay. So, yeah, so like I said, from that point of, like, people in adults staring, what we're trying to do is just normalize who Frankie is and other kids that are like Frankie that are, like I said, just want to live a fucking normal life like we all do and that have just drawn a short straw in life.

Because I can imagine during, I mean, the hot, like you're saying, you're very open about, You're learning this as well as you go. I can imagine it can be really isolating in moments. And there would be people and couples and families that would be out there feeling isolated, but you're giving them a bit of a voice here where it's like, you know. A hundred percent. And there's certainly moments of isolation. We're pretty fortunate about the support crew that we have around us as just an individual family,

not talking about it holistically. But, yeah, there are certainly moments of complete isolation. And even to our friendship group, like they've got, their lives are so much more normal than ours. And so relatability becomes like a part of the isolation. Like their kids are going to school. Their kids have got first year school photos or they're going to sport. And we're like, all right, sweet. We're going back to physio, you know.

Or we're going, like our life with Franks is very different to everybody else. And there is certainly moments. I mean, outside of sitting in a fucking hospital room for three or four months, when you're back in the real world, there are certainly moments of isolation where you're just like, I have nothing in common with my friends from a parenting perspective.

My friends are beautiful. Our friends are like an amazing. But when it comes to the parenting side of things, like we have nobody to sense check with. It's not like, hey, did your kid walk today? Did your kid pick their nose? Like it's not like, we don't have that benchmark or that ability to go,

my kid's 12 and he did it. Like we don't have that? So then how do you, how do you digest that? and not let it, you know, eat you up inside. I think you've got two choices. You either let it consume you or you just say, fuck it, we're on a different path. And let's just ride it and enjoy life because I hate to say it.

We're all going to end up in the same place anyway, right? We're all going to end up in a fucking box at some point. Yeah. So let's just make the most of what we've got. Because if you don't, like, you're just going to chew yourself up and you're going to isolate. And the world's a beautiful place. Like, there is so much beauty in the world that, sure, there are moments where people fucking stare, But, like, that happens to everybody.

But, yeah, like I said, I think it's more that comparing ourselves, I mean, comparison in anything is the root of evil, right? Like, if you compare your life to somebody else's, and their chapter 50 to your chapter one, nothing's going to steal joy faster. A hundred percent. So if we do that, it's a spiral. And I don't allow myself to do that. And Alex is pretty much the same.

Like we don't, just like I said, you have moments. You're like, fuck, why I see this sucks? What the fuck's going on? That'll reflect onto Frankie too. Frankie will be, as she grows up, she'll see that as well. And that's the sort of thing that she'll instill in her beliefs as well. I hope so. You know, like there's so many beautiful parts about life.

We try to give her the best life that we possibly can. And I think it's, I think for us it's, it's tough and we have to work really fucking hard. Can I just say, when you say working hard, like, I complain a lot about parenting. right we have a whole podcast about it and I know you didn't come on here to tell you a story

and try to get sympathy from anyone but I'm sitting here I am like holy fuck it's it is amazing thank you what you guys your situation is a lot harder than my own and how you guys can

get through that I'm like I gotta fucking applaud you because I think it's incredible it's mostly my wife I'm just a support character to be honest she's the one that kind of holds over. Support plays a big key. No, she's Batman and I'm Robin, right? But yeah, like I said before, like we just do what we can to ensure that we have the best

life for Frankie, that we can. And to your point of saying, like, you complain that, but that's okay, that's your life. Like, we're living our life. There's probably things in my life that are really great too that you don't have, like, I don't know, but on my premise is, like, you're only walking your own fucking race. Like, I'm not walking in your shoes. You're not walking in mine. comparison is the root of the stealer of joy, right? It's the same premise. Like, don't feel sorry for us.

We're doing the fucking best that we can in our situation. And we probably have some harder times than most. But for the majority, we're a very happy go lucky family and we do everything that we possibly can to ensure that Frankie gets anything and everything she possibly can as normalized as she possibly can. To someone who doesn't know, Frankie, how would you describe her? I'd describe her as a four-year-old little redhead, and I don't know where the red hair comes from, who knows nothing but pure happiness. And I know that that smile of hers and that squeal is something that really truly will melt the coldest of hearts. And as parents, we try to instill that happiness in her. And we managed to bring that out of her a lot. Sure,

there are times where she's tested and times that she's tired and times where We're tested and tired as parents, but on the whole, she is by far the happiest child that I have ever come across. And even with my friends, like, I've never seen a kid that's happy than Frankie. And that's a testament, probably more to Alex and myself, if I can rub myself on the back a little bit. Please, let us rub it for you. Thank you, please. But, yeah, like I said, we work so hard to ensure that she truly is the happiest little kid and we give her every possible experience that she deserves and that smile every morning and that laugh at every night and that kiss good night is something that I'll truly cherish

for the rest of my life. I've loved watching all the little milestones. Like, there's the video, the first one I saw of you guys and your family was when, it was on the baby monitor. It sounds very voyeuristic. It's super voyeuristic, but it seems to work. But it was you coming into the room and just how happy Frankie was knowing that you were there in bed next to her. I was like, oh, this is beautiful.

Good morning, little miss. Yeah. Are you ready to go downstairs? Dreamed out. You know, that's it? She senses us, and obviously, like I said, she can't see, and I think that's her, the hard side part about that is that the eyes are fine. It's the injury or the brain that's not processing the imagery. So all the hardware's fine.

It's like the software's got a glitch. She's effectively probably the easiest way to describe the eyesight. But yeah, her touch and smell and sound is really warming. And she knows who's in the room. And it's funny, I said before about how Frankie doesn't like being put on show. Like Alex will, like, we'll be doing something. And Alex will obviously hit a milestone or whatever and pull the camera out to film because that's what parents do.

And Frankie will just stop. Oh, really? She'll just stop or she'll just like, my kids do that. That's not, sweet. Well, like, I'm like, dad, it's okay. That's the same premise, but she, like, the fact that she can't see, but she not, I don't know, she just knows. She just knows. She just knows.

Camera will come out. Maybe it's because Alex goes quiet rather than talking. Who knows what it is, but she does those types of things where the camera will come out and she'll just stop. She'll just stop doing whatever it is that she was doing. And like I said, we'll kind of, we'll quite fist pump, but the camera, because you want to record it and share it with the family. I heard that. Yeah, I heard that view. Put the camera down.

Put the camera down. We have a baby monitor like most people do, and I think probably probably. the whole way through. But for Frankie, because she can't see and she's nonverbal, you don't know when she's awake, asleep, whatever it may be. And only until probably two or three weeks ago, she was co-sleeping with Alex. And it's only now in the last three weeks that I've managed to be able to put Frankie to bed. But that camera was always there because she was having midday naps. And we have two white noise machines on in the house, which is, now I can't sleep without wide noise. But you can't You can't hear her.

So that was obviously used just to kind of monitor her, which is the point of them. But it's able to have captured a couple of really beautiful moments between both myself and Frankie and Alex and Frankie. And to be able to share that and show that she has love and kind of show her in a different light is a really nice thing. You're also going to have those forever, right? 100%. And that's, I mean, one of the perks of modern day parenting now, I'm not rummaging through

my nan's house to find photos of me. I can't get away from all the shit off my kids. It's literally, I just lit up then as a kid there. So like that's the thing. You're going to look back on that sort of stuff. And same with Frankie's going to look back on that sort of stuff. And you guys will talk about it and it'll be a core memory, which is amazing. 100%.

And I think, like I said before, we're just here to show others that there is hope, even when you don't think that there is hope. Yeah. Like we don't have, like I said, we don't have any expectations on her. And there are families that we hear about that are in really direst. straight and our little piece of happiness shows them that there is potential and strength. And so that's why we do what we do. And we spoke about it really briefly before we started recording.

But what does falling pregnant again look like for you guys? We were very fortunate to have fallen pregnant again in September of last year. And we naturally conceived triplets. Oh. which was probably a wild ride in itself. We knew Alex was pregnant, but I'd had a tripbook with my cousin to go away, and then Al was going to the obstetrician and found out we were having triplets, which was fucking wild.

So I'm on the other side of the world on FaceTime, finding out that we're having triplets, which was super surreal and naturally conceived, not IVF, or they were natural. So it was a identical pair and let's call it a spare. I know that's probably the worst way to say it. Effectively it was an egg that split and a single singleton. And given Alex's history of birth and obviously cervical incompetence, the doctors highly suggested that we reduced from three children to one,

which was pretty heartbreaking in itself. So we did that, which was at about 12 weeks, which is a bit effective. We had to choose to terminate the twins at about 12 or 13 weeks, which was super tough in itself. I can't even imagine. But given Alex's history, we didn't really have a choice. It was like, you're either going to go to 12 or 14 weeks.

Alex's service is going to give out and then you're going to lose all of them or you give one a good fighting chance. Alex has a shortened cervix because she had an operation when she was a little bit younger and what happened was they had, they had, and I'm not, she should be here explaining this, but effectively the operation reduced the length of her cervix and that's kind of what's caused. in the first instance the shortened cervix but I think the way that frankie was delivered has caused the more incompetence of the cervix going forward I'm not a medical expert and they haven't

said that for sure but that's just the way that we think it's transpired and so we got to about 18 weeks and the obstetrician said we need to put a cervical circlarge in which is effectively they put it asleep and they basically stitch the cervix closed in the hope that the pressure of the baby will and the and the stitch will keep the cervix closed But that stitch failed at 20 weeks. And we had to birth, or I didn't, Alex had to birth the third triplet at 20 weeks, which was, again, probably super tough.

And I think if that was its standalone experience, we would have found that a lot harder than everything else that had transpired. I think that as its own incident is awfully tough and awfully difficult. And pregnancy loss in any shape or form, whether that's one week or at 40 weeks, it's fucking awful. but given our life and our circumstance, it became just another part of the journey. But the hard part was Alex literally birthed a little child.

Like she birthed a little baby, which wouldn't have been much bigger than a, bigger than like a Barbie doll. Nails, fingernails, like everything fully formed, which was super difficult. I mean, I had to cut the umbilical cord,

right? Like, literally in the room, birthed, which was tough. And the baby's due dates was today, which is kind of, I don't know whether it's like good, bad, indifferent, but it's just kind of funny that we've ended up here today

talking about this when this is the day that we were meant to be bringing three more, three more kids into the world. And we appreciate so much you coming in. I mean, a tough, tough day. Well, I'm trying to, like, this is like a fictional story, right? I don't even feel, like, looking back at it now, it doesn't feel real.

Yeah. I don't know, it's a lot of, some of lived experience. The level of grief that you guys as a couple of, of how to go through. And so do you think that you and Alex will still push your head with trying to fall pregnant again? So, yeah. So we're doing a couple of things at the moment. We were in Melbourne last week to get a thing called an abdominal surclage, which what that is is it's a keyhole procedure where they put in a stitch kind of at the top of the cervix rather than at the bottom, so not through the vagina, which is what happened the first time. So it's effectively at the

top of the uterus or the top of the cervix. And so that seems to be like it has a very, very, very high success rate. And that's something that a woman can, if they wish, keep in for life. So you can fall pregnant with it. You can have it till the day you die. If you obviously want it out, you do what you need to do. I'm not the medical expert. But effectively, it's just in there. It's like an insurance policy. So when you do fall pregnant, there is something that's there that should hopefully catch the baby. And from, from all accounts, it's quite successful in terms of being able to hold women who have an incompetent cervix. So yeah, so we're doing that and we're also doing embryo retrieval. Like we said,

we don't have an issue falling pregnant. It's obviously, Alex is getting a little bit older and the body clock is ticking for her. And so we're just doing some embryos to be able to, either one, if we fall pregnant again naturally and the surclash holds, if we choose to have another child, at least there's eggs that are ready to go, or sorry, embryos that are ready to go. Or if we're unfortunate, then we'll probably look to go down the surrogacy path, which is a whole another fucking gamut to itself. And I'm really hoping that the circlage is what holds. And it's seeming like from all accounts. It's the right trajectory or the right path that we're going down. So yeah, that's probably our next step. And hopefully sometime in the near future, we are able to bring

another baby home in probably better circumstances than the last few, the last four or five years that we've, we've had. So like it's really easy for me to think, oh, we're all on the same path and everyone's parenting journey is pretty much similar and yours is wildly different. And I'm like, just the strength that you guys have had to get to where you are now knowing what you've gone through. It's fucking amazing. Thank you. But I think anybody I would think, or the majority of people, I think would end would do what we've had to do. You don't have an alternative. Like you're a parent. You choose if you willingly become a parent, it's like anything. You have, you've got to see it through. I think that's, you're going to fight for it. You've got 100% right. Like, and I, and I, and I,

And maybe I can harp on this. Like you're obviously your journey to sobriety, right? Like you've got to fight for the things that you want. And obviously your children are far more important than the alcohol for you. And I think that that's a super strong point because I'm sure what you're going through is fucking not easy either. And that's your journey, right? Like I'm saying, like I've got my child is my difficult part.

Obviously, you've got your sobriety piece, which we've made, hats off to you for thanks so much for doing what you're doing. And it's a testament to you guys with how much, you know, how much you're putting in and how much you're fighting and, and like, you're enjoying the much. that you guys have on your journey where you can. And like you said, like she's exceeding, you know, these milestones that doctors have said that she's exceeding and it just must fill your heart too to hear that. It does.

It certainly gives us hope. It gives us hope for the future. But I think my personality won't allow me to sit still and my personality won't allow her to be locked away, which kind of seems to happen to some people in our space, which we hear some pretty horrible stories. But yeah, I can't sit still. deal for a minute and I'm surprised that I'm still sitting here without bouncing around the walls. But yeah, like I want to see the world and I want to experience the world and I have the ability

and we have the ability to give Frankie that and we're going to do that for as fucking long as we can because it's not, like I said, she just deserves as much as everybody else. Sure. And to be honest, maybe even more because she's drawn a fucking short straw, you know, like her life's not as fair as everybody else's and that poor little thing she works her heart out to ensure that she maximizes what she can get. out of life and as parents we push her but yeah our job is to fill her fill her life with joy and happiness as best that we possibly can and make sure that she's

surrounded by love because at the end of the day like I said we're all going to go to the same place so let's just fucking enjoy the ride while we're here yeah I thought you nailed it out talking about celebrating the wins because if I'm being completely honest knowing the you know what diagnosis you've had with Frankie part of me wants to really grieve for you and then there is that element but at the same time watching you guys celebrate those wins is so important for me to understand your situation more of course and I think we will always grieve but we will grieve to an extent the life that you envisioned rather than what other people have I think is what it is like you said when one of the earlier questions was around growing up

when did you know you wanted to be a parent I think like I said you always wanted to be a parent you always wanted to be standing on the sideline cheering your kid on and yelling and letting out them for doing something wrong and having those. moments. So that grief will be constant. And I think as time goes on and the more we kind of realize where Frankie's at and her limitations and whatever else comes, we know that there's more grief ahead, which is probably the harder bit. It's like, when's the fucking next problem going to happen? You know, like, when is she going to relapse and have another seizure? Like, we don't know her lifespan. Like, is she going to outlive us or we're going to outlive her? Like,

we don't know those types of things. And so, like, you can't, no one can have a future playing because you can walk out of here and get hit by a bus and it's probably a little bit more and there's a bit of morbidity in what we're talking about. But you can't future plan, all right, my kid's going to go to school. There's no like traditional timeline of what you expected as a parent. Like, I'm going to grow up and going to have a kid. They're going to go to school at five and so on and so forth. And that traditional lineal line that most families go through with trial and tribulation, we don't have a lineal line. We don't fucking know what tomorrow is going to bring us. And so we try.

a plan as best we can. But yeah, like I said, we're just not on a linear line like everybody, not on a linear line, but, you know, most people have a traditional line that they've got, trajectory. That's probably a better word. So we don't have that. And so, yeah, we're trying to kind of come to terms with that, which is probably the grief bit that still sits behind at all times. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a comparison of others. It's a, why didn't we get what we thought we were going to get. And how do we fulfill that? But we just want to show that Frankie is so loved, that Frankie, that there is so much love in this world that people are really happy to be involved in her life. People behind us are coming through and seeing that there is hope and opportunity for them and

their children. And the questions, like, we have all this assistive technology that we didn't know about before we started deep diving. And now there are parents asking us, hey, where did you get that? Where did you get this? And so it's kind of become an information. We would like to think. It's a It's a community, and we'd like to think that what we're doing is we're helping some other parents who are behind us on the journey come through and really know that there is hope and that they can love their child and things will be okay and we really want to spread joy, love and happiness and normalize what's happening with Frankie. Yeah, from all the shit on the internet, like guys putting tails on their head and pretending

to be their wives, there are small pockets that are very inspiring. Very inspiring and also like, yeah, it builds this community that it's funny when you go onto videos like yours and other accounts that pop up and you go into the comments and you're like, okay, what am I going to expect here? And it's a lot of people getting little tips from each other. It's amazing. And then also being like this is. The right side of social media.

I'm on the right side. I want to stay here. Anyway, let me tell you. At the moment, you're not working. Alex, your wife's not working. Yeah. I'm wearing some Frankie merch. You're wearing the Frankie hat.

Yeah, I've got one. With the money raised from the selling of the merch, where does that go? So every year, or not every year, probably every other year, we've done a drop. So we've done a set of hats. We've done these jumpers now with the help of a friend of ours. And we're doing another one now. And what we did the first time, we just kind of donate to somebody who has some sort of relationship to Frankie.

So the first year we did the hats. We donated all the proceeds to epilepsy. Australia. They were really good to us when everything kind of happened with the seizures and they really exceptional to us as a family and really took care and brought us in. So we donated the money to that. And then last year when we did the jumpers, we did a donation to a company called Whatability. They're basically like community outreach program, a friend of our Steve Dreslet's his business. The cafe that we go to near my place that we also met Vic, they have a lunch like once a week with the Waterability guys.

and then. So I see them all the time. They're doing really good stuff. So they've got a, good job. They've got a foundation outside of the actual operational business, which is kind of like community outreach. And so last time we donated to that, and then, yeah, we're going to probably do another one this year. And I think we don't know, we hadn't really been talking about, talked about between Alex and I where we're going to donate the money. But yeah, like I said, any money that we make, go straight to whatever that charity. This is a little presumptuous, but if you need any models. All right, there'll be a few samples sent through.

Thank you. You mean you or me? We're talking about both of us. We were talking about Vic. Two or three. That's very kind. Any way that we can support, dude, we would love to help out. Thank you.

Bring back the calendars. Would you be happy to be in budgie smugglers? I might need a sock, but yeah. Try, you can borrow mine. Done, thank you. We'll also put any links in the show notes as well for where people can donate to help out, because I think it's such a great cause. Thank you.

Like I said, yeah. We certainly, we're not here to make money from Frankie. That's not our job. Where our job is to make sure that others can get looked after that are on the same journey. And it's, yeah, it's certainly been a very challenging four and a half years. And I think our path is probably only at the beginning. I don't think it's going to get easier. I certainly think it's going to get a fuckload harder as she gets bigger and larger and grows into a full adult human.

And if she doesn't get mobile, which has proved me wrong before. If she doesn't get mobile enough, then I think we're in for a row. really tough life from that perspective. But like I said, we will do everything we can to ensure that she lives the fullest, happiest, happiest life, and that she's known that she's been loved by everybody and that we've tried to normalise her situation so that we don't have those types of people, the stare is, and the young kids going, what's that, mummy? And that's no slight on children because children are inquisitive and they go, but it's the parents that can educate the kids on what that looks like

and to normalize something that is a little unnormal. For sure. I think Frankie is so incredibly lucky to have such amazing parents like yourself and Alex. Thank you. And dude, it really is so inspiring. I don't know if you know what you do for other parents

just by telling your story, but it's incredible. And the fact that it's your first podcast as well, I just want to say thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate you coming in and telling us your story. And we know that our community, community and whoever listens to us, they'll, they're going to love this.

The Dota's will rally behind you. You're doing nothing but good thing, so keep it up. We'll be watching. We can't wait to see all the updates on Instagram and everything. What's the hand? Do you have the handle off by heart? I actually don't know what it is, because I don't have, I don't have it. Jackson, come on.

It's all, we'll put it on the box. I think, do you have it out? I'm like, what are you? I think it's Alex Ray underscore, but it's W-R-A-Y. We'll pop it in the show notes anyway, but again, thank you. so much. Thank you guys. I think what gets me about Jackson is how positive he is about their family situation and the message that they want to put across to everyone else. They are a family that has dealt with more trauma than anyone deserves, but it is so inspiring their outlook. To Jackson,

to Alex and to Frankie, you guys are doing such an incredible job. Yeah, thank you, Jackson for jumping on and spending some time with us. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review, subscribe, or you can join us where Matt. On social media, two doting dads on Instagram, TikTok, there is also the Facebook group and a little reminder as well that we are now, we have given producer Vic a lot more work and we are doing long form, full episodes on YouTube. But if you are going to watch that, you have to also listen to it, have to also give us a comment and follow us as well.

You have a lot of homework to do. Get to it right now. And until next time, goodbye. Bye guys. Two doting dance podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gatigal Land.