Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash - #258 Gen Muir Is Back With Some Boundaries!

Episode Date: September 6, 2026

Our favourite parenting expert Gen Muir is back, and the guys waste absolutely no time using her as their own personal parenting hotline. The Oracle has also somehow found the time to write a whole new book, this one about boundaries,  so naturally she kicks off by setting a few with the guys. This ep is packed with genuinely brilliant advice: the one question every parent should ask themselves before setting a boundary, why modern parenting feels so bloody confusing and what to do when your kids push back. Basically, Gen is back to make us all feel slightly more capable of parenting our children once again. You can buy her new book here or follow her daily wisdom here. ______________________________________________________________________________ You can grab a copy of Ash's new book The Secret Ingredient here.  If you need a shoulder to cry on:  Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ash, you know what they say? What? Third times a child. I thought this was an ad for aze? I was like, what's the brand name? We are, of course, talking about the one and only, Jen Muir, or as we call her. Yes, we're talking about the Oracle, man.

And I would say that she's probably the best parenting educator. I've ever laid eyes on. I think she may be the only educator I've ever laid eyes on, but I don't want to lay eyes on any other educator. I only have eyes for one educator and one educator. I don't want educator only. If they come to me, I'm like, sorry, I'm taken. I'm with Jen.

It helps. She's also a mum of four, Matt. And her kids are getting up there. We're talking teenagers. And she's always so busy, but somehow, I don't know how. I'm not going to ask too many questions because she's done a sensational job. I don't want to know her secrets, but she's written a book called Why Kids Need Boundaries. Why Kids, Parents, and everyone need boundaries, if you ask me.

What are your boundaries like as a parent? Are you talking about cricket or? That, come on. That is terrible. Sorry. That is like... Vic is shaking her head right now. Boundaries for me...

She actually would have preferred you made a cum joke. I'll come on those boundaries. That's better. Thank you. I set the boundaries and no one fucking follows them. That's how it works in my house. I'm torn between...

I'm like, I want to be a fun time dad and then I'm like, these are the rules. Everyone's got to follow them. And if you don't, I'm kicking you out of the house. That sounds like me. That sounds like my boundaries. And I'm worried that Jen will not agree with me.

I don't think she's going to, yeah. We'll find out. But I've got a couple of scenarios that we're going to run by Jen, and I reckon I'm going to catch her out. Just one time I want Jen to be like, oh, fuck, I don't know how to answer that. My money's on Jen, bro. There's no way you're catching her out. She's got years.

Look how thick the book she wrote is, Matt. It's huge. Like, that's just one of the books, Matt. You want to try and catch the Oracle out? You. The audacity on you. Don't underestimate me, Ash. I've estimated you correctly.

and I don't think you're going to catch you. Well, we're about to find out. Let's do it. Welcome back to two doting dads. Jen, please don't laugh at my intro. Yeah, laugh away, Jen. Big wiped. Two doting dads and one doting mum slash Oracle.

Doting Oracle. I'm Maddie J. I'm Ash. And I'm Jen. Bye, Jen. And I'm so happy to be here. Yeah. For Oracle.

Or Mom. Guardian Angel. I like Oracle. I'll go your mum. I mean, what's funny and my husband gets a bit annoyed because he's the oracle in that a lot of things that have happened in our parenting, despite me being the parent educator, he's actually the naturally better parent. And a lot of my really cool things that I... So we're wasting our time. Where is it? Bring him in. I don't think we could

handle it. He'd blow our minds. He'd take up. He wouldn't need us anymore. Just sit down. Levitates into the room. Oh, my God. So he's my oracle. But yes, I can be your Oracle. And I love how before we started recording, Jen's like, oh, by the way, I just did a talk to like a billion people online. It was a webinar. It was a webinar. It was 850, not a billion. 850 people. Yes. Yes. Yeah, webinars, because you're like, is it working? You can't tell. It's working at your own. You can't get like the laughter. It's so hard. And then you are talking into a silo. You have to laugh at your own jokes. Which for us is not that hard. But I always do it. I used to do webinars. It was at. I used to do webinars.

at my last job through all of CBA and stuff like that. About what? It was training. It's about using the system that we use. And it's like, you did, sorry. I've done it all, bro. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, you crack a joke.

You're like, and then no one else's laughing. You're like, damn. Because you can't, they can just hear you. Yeah. Yeah. It's about my channel.

This is more fun. I can only imagine the laughter right now in the eardrums of the Dota's all around the country. You're like, just get on with it. Give us the good stuff. How are you? I'm really good. Yeah.

You look very. Like, you look great. Thank you. Not that you don't look great at any other time. You've got a tan maybe? Have you been? You've been away somewhere?

No. No. Just a Sydney tan. No. Maybe it's just, maybe it's that I'm taking my vitamins. Trying to get my eight hours of Zs. Yeah.

Going to the gym. That's it. It's all paying off. And we will say congratulations. Yes. On the book. Oh, thank you. How the fuck do you have time to write a book?

And I mean that in like a non-acusatory way. Oh, there it is. How? When what? Who was doing this writing for you? I wrote it. Do you know what? That's like, that's a thick book.

That's thick. That's, uh, oh, over 200280, 280 pages. Yeah. What's the word count? I don't know. How many errors? None. Well, that's what an answer.

That's what an editor's for. Oh, yeah. Okay. Rito. Do you know what? For me, because I live and breathe this and I am fully obsessed with helping parents with what kids need, but also lowering the pressure and the overwhelm, it actually came kind of easily in that this is what I teach, this is what I'm talking about all day long on

webinars. So writing it, I pretty much narrated it. How did the idea for boundaries pop up for you? So I've always been passionate about boundaries because, like my, my. backstory is that despite sort of having information as a social worker as the daughter of a therapist about what kids needed and the kind of parent I wanted to be, when it came particularly to boundaries, I found myself pretty stuck. And I think a lot of millennial parents can relate to this feeling in that I knew I didn't want to smack. I kind of knew there were things I wanted to do

different, the way that I was raised, because I had access to information my parents didn't have. But then I found myself standing in the kitchen face with a two-year-old. And I was there going, do I sit him in the corner for two minutes because he's two? Or do I put a reward chart on the fridge and hope that one of those things teaches him how to behave? And neither was working. And my partner and I were like clashing over it. So I knew I wanted an answer as to how to do boundaries. And I knew there were things I didn't want to do.

So I knew that this was the struggle of the millennial parent because I think we've been told what not to do. We've been told what not to do really clearly. And yet no one's really been clear on what to do. Yeah, like what to replace, what not to do with? Yeah, what do I do? What do I do? Exactly. And it kind of doesn't feel good to beg or threaten.

It's not really working. Gentle parenting has ruined us. Yeah, exactly right. So everyone's gone, I'll go to be a general. But I feel like you can be a balance of gentle parenting and stern. So I have never associated myself with gentle parenting. And the book actually covers that. One of the things, one of the reasons I think parents are burning out and feeling

overwhelmed is a little bit that gentle parenting. It's too nice. You always said this. Because the pendulum, look, it needs to swing in one extreme before it corrects itself. And obviously we all got belted. Love my mum. Love my mum. Love my mum.

We got smacked. Sorry. There's a dint in the back of my head, which is care of. No, no, I'm just joking. No, no, never did that. She went the backside because you couldn't see the bruises. True. And then I think off the back of.

of the smacking, the season of smacking, as it was, we then went gentle parenting, and now we're correcting ourselves. Yes, and to explain why that is so confusing is that sort of gentle parenting is actually a term that got coined by someone. She was a UK author who wrote some books around it. It was a way of describing a parenting style we do know from the evidence is best for kids, which is authoritative parenting. So there are four ways you can sort of raise your kids.

That sounds better than gentle parenting. Yeah, so authoritarian parenting. I feel like I'm going to resonate with this. Authoritarian parenting is how we were all raised, which is high structure and low warmth in boundary moments, which is go to your room because I said, so I'm your mother. If you don't stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about,

all of that stuff, right? So that was like the beautiful thing. The beautiful thing about that, or the good thing about that, we knew where the limit was. But without any warmth or kindness, it didn't feel great all the time for all of us. We didn't build some of the crucial

emotional and regulation skills that would have been helpful. And as a result, we learned to push behaviour or feeling. Yeah, I feel like my mum was that. My mum was like always quite like straight to the where the boundary is without easing up to it, which I mean, yeah, everyone else around us wasn't like that. So to have her, it was kind of good thing. Yes. I don't know where I'd be.

Yes. So that is kind of how we were raised. And then I think gentle parenting sort of came and it focused really on the connection and the empathy but didn't talk at all about limits. So that could have us leaning a little bit like all empathy, all feelings, and then it could become like it sometimes can feel like the children's emotions are running the temperature of the house. Like we are responsible for making our kids happy and we don't kind of ever get to just say

that doesn't work for me. So what this book is about is finding that balance between the firmness and the kindness. There are ways of setting limits where we're not threatening and we're not begging and we're not bribing and we're kind of not going, if you don't do this, I won't do that. And it's really about that balance more than anything else. But that balance is really hard to do if that wasn't modeled for you. If what was modeled for you is all firm without the kind, then it's going to feel kind of uncomfortable and find that balance is really tricky.

Why are modern parents feeling so overwhelmed? I think that the world that we're parenting in has changed dramatically. So we're living and working differently. We know more about what kids need and the kind of parent we want to be. And we're doing our parenting differently. but more specifically, I reckon we've told modern parents when it comes to boundaries what not to do, but not what to do. And as a result, it can almost start to feel sometimes like the kids are running the house. And there's a chapter in my next book called Take Back the House. And it's,

it all reflects back to, I read this thing by Steve Bidop, who's an amazing parent educator. And he wrote this thing once about how when you think back in history, once upon a time, every house had a room. Children were not allowed in the good room. And in fact, there was almost a mantra of children should be seen and not heard. And he was saying, well, now parents are almost building a parent's retreat because it's almost like the kids own the house. And he was sort of saying it's time for parents to take back the house. So we don't want to go back to children should be seen and not heard, but we don't want to also live where children's emotions and how they're feeling are kind of dominating the whole vibe of the house. So it's a sense of how do we let our,

children lead? How do we be empathetic and compassionate and kind and be aware of their feelings, but also be willing to lead when they need it? I feel like I'm slowly in my journey trying to find a little bit more empathy with them. Like it's only real of late really the last couple of years because they're getting older and they're communicating. They can communicate their feelings a bit better as well. So then I feel like, well, if they're going to communicate them to me, I'm going to community mind to them. But at the same time, you're like, I do find myself falling back into that. Do this or I'll take that.

So quite quickly, because it is the path of least resistance sometimes. I think it's also one of the biggest things I think is so helpful for parents to know is that whenever you're in those high-stakes situations, you're never just responding to the emotions or the behaviours of the kid in front of you. What is also playing in the background is how your parents would have responded to those emotions and behaviours in you. So if you're dealing with the kid in the kitchen who's wanting the biscuit and you're saying no and they're melting down at the cupboard, you're seeing the kid in front of you and at a logical level you know, well, that's normal to melt down at three and my job

is to say no and to be firm and kind. And we can know all that on paper and then in the moment have our own parents words come out of our mouths and act more like a toddler than our toddler because your system while your brain knows, well, this is what I do. Your system is going this emotion that my kid is showing, well, that wasn't safe for me to show. And so I need to shut this down immediately. This is not safe. And so your system goes into fight, flat or freeze. And that's when we either collapse or give in and say, okay, just have what you want,

just be happy. Or we find ourselves going harsh. I think one of the most common questions that we got on socials is not to attack the three-year-olds of this country. But what is going on with the three-year-olds? Three-nages. The bloody three ages. Yeah, terrible twos is kind of redundant.

Oh, news. No, it doesn't exist anymore. It's not even terrible. I was like, my kids were the best at like two-ish. Like they had their moment. I know. But three, they all of a sudden, they built this resilience towards me. Yeah.

I don't like, we would be here all day if I was to try and read out all the questions about three-year-olds. But I think let's start there. That's kind of like, tell me if you think otherwise. But that's when boundaries start coming into play at around the age of three, because they're able to communicate back to you, like they can back chat. Do you have any rules that parents can have in the back of their mind when they're like dealing with, say, a three-year-old? And it's that choice between do I pull them up and do I discipline and put the foot down

or do I let it slide and take the path of least resistance? Yes, I do. I think there is one question that parents can use to define whether they're in a boundary moment or not, whether you're going to die on this hill or not. and it's a question that you can ask yourself whether it is your three-year-old, wanting a biscuit, wanting another story, jumping on your couch, hitting their sibling, snatching off something. It doesn't matter what the behaviour is or whether it's your kid doing something.

Sounded like a day of a life of a three-year-old. Or wanting you. Welcome to my day-the-life. I'm going to smack my mum and going to throw food on the ground. It'll be great. Watch me scream. 100%. So no matter what the behaviour is, the only question you need to

ask yourself in that moment is, does this work for me? Does this work for my child? Now, I love that question because give me a scenario. What's at any scenario? Give me a boundary scenario from your lives. Probably the one which is trying to get Macy to come home from the park. Okay. So like we're there for a set amount of time and I've said, hey, we have to go home at some point to do this. Just so you know. Yeah. And it's whatever it comes out of my mouth is bad news. And no matter what, no matter like, And I can give you ways that we can prepare a child to leave the park. There's ways we can prep them in advance. So when we're going to the park today and I know when I say it's time to go,

it can be pretty tricky. So we can do all that stuff to prep a child. That will help. We can make sure that when we tell them it's time to go, we're sort of connecting in before we direct. So that there's the little tips that help in the lead up. But no matter what we do all those steps, there is no child on the planet that's ever going to say,

thanks, dad. I thought I was having a good time here, but I'm glad, you know, it's good on you for pulling me up. up. I can't wait to go home. I can't wait to go home with you and not play at the park. Yeah, and maybe we could get on with bedtime a little earlier tonight. Oh yeah. Now you're speaking the language. You know, imagine like, you know, it's so funny, but like we say, you know, no, you can't have a biscuit. What child says, thank you so much. I have actually watching my way for

summer. I didn't want my blood sugar to spike at all. You know what? This is really going to save my appetite for dinner and I'm grateful for you or like, you know, I thought I wanted another story. But now that you mentioned that you're done. How? Are you tired? I would love a bit more sleep. You put your feet up. You deserve it.

So said no kid ever, obviously. So their job is always to push against the limit. But I think sort of knowing, preparing for that and then knowing that sort of when we come in and we let our kids know it's time to go. So the kid, you say, it's time to go. Your kid says, no. Or they bolt. Yeah. You know, what do we do in that moment?

Well, I would always ask that question. Does this work for me? Does this work for my child? And genuinely, if you're like, do you know what, I don't mind five more minutes of the park, sure, let's stay. Then consciously go for your life. If it doesn't work for you, truly, truly the kindest thing we could do. Because if it doesn't work for you, it probably doesn't work for your child.

And I think a lot of the time, like if kids would have it their way, right, they would only eat, you know, Tim Thames for dinner and they would never go to bed and like all of that stuff. They're never going to say, oh, please help me with the stuff I know I need. But often they're actually quite grateful when we go. I know you're actually tired and we are going to leave the park now. And as much as you might want to keep playing forever, I know, there's that your energy is not infinite.

I will. Go, pull you up. I will. And my dream is to be like, got to Jen. Two great minds going at it. Go, let's go. One educated, one educated in other things. I don't want to say uneducated because he is educated.

Well, I didn't finish my TAFE course. That's another story. None of those days. Don't worry about it. For my children, if I say, look, I know you're tired, they're like, what did you fucking call me? Oh yeah, I got us to get a good one the other day. No, you don't ever say they're tied, but let me, let me ask you to think about this, right?

He wants a fire. I can feel it. So I truly believe, right, whether your child is two or three or 15. I had to tell a 15 year old last night, honestly, it's bedtime. Like, no more in bed, right? I believe that there is this thing where they will always say, no, I don't want to go to bed. I don't want that limit. I don't want this to end, whatever it is.

more to that. So why will the two-year-old not want to go to sleep? Because it's hard to wind down because it's hard to say goodbye to you, whatever, right? I believe that our job is to say, I get that you don't want to go to bed. This is the limit. You don't have to like it. You don't have to, they don't have to love, never ever. Does your child have to say, oh, thank you, dad. Yeah, I agree. I am tight. They're never going to do that. Not in a billion years, but here is what I reckon you can look for right after you set the limit. So I would say, I get that you really want another story. And there's so much you'd like to be doing right now, but right now it is bedtime and I'm done with stories for tonight and I cannot

wait to see in the morning. You can be upset about that, but that's what's happening, right? And kids will do what they do. I reckon there is a look right after that pushback that happens, whether it's bedtime, whether it's the biscuit, whether it's the kid jumping on the couch, whether it's my 17-year-old wanting to go to a party that I'm not comfortable with. Right after you're the worst mum or dad ever, there is actually a look of relief that you see in kids' faces. and you've got to look for it. Where is it? Look relieved.

Just shake it out of them. Guys, imagine how good that feels to have someone that's willing to say, I've got you, even when you can't. I've got you. Here's the edge. We're at the edge. Or just say you've got a kid that you say don't hit your brother and they're about to hit their brother or they hit their brother.

And you're stepping up, I'm not going to let you hit. And they go, they're losing it, but there's a look of like, oh, thank you. I didn't want to be that kid. So if we go back to, let's see, hypothetical, Macy's at the park, yes, Ash is going, yeah, cool. Let's do the park. I reckon this is a really good one.

Let's go to death. Okay, so I would go along the lines of, hey, we need to go. It's time to go. And the pushback would be obviously, no, no, yeah. And depending on where. Feels like Macy's in the room with us. Yeah. No.

She's like, she can't really talk very well. And then it's like, the thing is with Macy, it's not a big meltdown like moment. It's a sulk. Yeah. That it's like, she's not happy about it. And that's probably she'll continue to salt. And it will be a fight back that I don't want to go. I don't want to go.

And how does that make you feel? I think early doors that would have really frustrated me. I think I've softened up a little bit with her where I'll give more time if it's needed. Sometimes I think as parents, do you feel sometimes like you've just. given everything. Yes. And then no matter what. Yeah.

They're not happy. And I think there's a part of us that's like, I want you to be happy. Yeah. I definitely feel that where I'm like, is this not enough? Yeah. Is it never enough? Yeah. Give them 100 lollies.

I want 100 and 1. Yeah. Yeah. So many times I have said to them and I was like, mommy and dad do absolutely everything for you. The least you could do is put your fucking shoes away. Like, you know. And I think that's fair.

And yet. And yet. They don't go away. It's fucking shoes. But yeah, it's, yeah, it's the park's a big one because, like, she's obviously having so much fun. She expresses herself so much more at the park. I get it. So is there anything that Ash can be doing or is the soul king just going to be part and parcel?

With a kid that age? I would view it that as her beautifully doing her job. So your job is to let her know when it's time to go, what works for you, what works for her. That's your job as the parent. Your job is to lead. And her job is to let you know. how she feels about it. Yeah.

And I think she's doing a really beautiful job. To let you know how she feels about it. Which is her sulking, which is it, because that's her way of dealing with it too. Yeah. So like whether it's the kid that's sulking or going, you know, I don't want to go and that can feel hard. And again, the reflection for you in that behaviour, we're going a little bit deeper here under the surface, but the reflection for you is like, what would have happened to you as a little kid if you salt or winged?

Oh, we're going to told off. Yeah. So there is something deeply. uncomfortable in that expression of emotion. Another kid might express that same emotion, which is just frustration. We're talking about building frustration tolerance in our kids. So our kids are living in a world where it is harder for them to have moments that are frustrating than ever before. They don't have to rewind a DVD. They never go thirsty for a second. The pain of rewining a VHS. Yes. Why do I say rewind a DVD? I think I do it every time.

But what I mean... You can rewind a barley one. Yeah. What I mean is a reminder of VHS, I'm showing my age. You know, that they don't have a lot of frustration. So it's when we say it's time to leave the park, it's bedtime, it's childcare drop off. No, you're not having a biscuit. I'm not going to let you hit your brother. I won't let you snatch that. It's when we set these limits that our kids get some of the only opportunities they get to feel frustration. It's actually a really positive thing. Their expression of emotions around that, that's not the worry. The boundary got set. As long as you're able to say, despite that expression of emotion. I know. I can see how much you don't want to go, but my hands on your back

and I'm going to lead you to the car. Off we go. For the parent that has the child that is now limp on the ground. Have you got a limp one? Well, yeah, my question is going from a child who's sulky when it crosses over to the limp child or the child who's like, I hate you, when do you start being like, well, thank you so much for letting me understand your emotions to being like, that's not fucking on right now the way you're acting. If Macy told me she hated me, I'd leave her at the park. Yeah. You would not.

For a moment. A very brief moment. I'm like, right, I'm gone. If you got to talk to me like, I'm out here. So the way kids are going to express emotions as they sort of grow up, like, first of all, kids just show us physically. So the two-year-old probably goes limp, right? They literally just lose ability.

And then the three-year-old probably bolts. They're like, I'm just going to run. Like, it's time to go. go and they're like, I'm going to bowl. Have your kids ever hidden from you when you're trying to leave a play date or something? Okay. So all of those behaviours. And then we've got kids that might show us in another way.

They might whinge or wine or beg, please, I can give you another 50,000 reasons why I should be able to do this thing. And then we get kids. And this is actually as they're developing in their skills at expressing themselves and linking emotions to the front of the brain. And then they're going to say harsh words. You're the worst out ever. I hate you.

You're the only parent that does that. I'd love to say that phase ends, but actually, you know, 17-year-olds will think you're the worst parent ever. So do we, like, when is the boundary coming to play? Is there like... Well, the boundary is what you're willing to do or not do. Are you willing to stay at the park? Are you willing to read another story? No.

Are you willing to give you a kid a biscuit or let them jump on your couch? So then if they start using... Their expression does not require a boundary unless it breaks a core rule. Which is? And we've done core rules before. So I have four core rules. So the first is no hitting or hurting ourselves or each other or the dog. Hands are for hugging and high fives.

Yeah. We can say that. I didn't ever say that. Yes, you did. And we go, roll the tape. Number two is no name calling. Number three is we respect our environment. And so for me, my environment includes my dining table.

I don't want my kids standing on my table. It's just one of my rules. For you, that could be different in your house. And the fourth one, if someone is crying or something, saying stop, we stop and we check on them. They're our four core rules. So to me, your kid can express any emotions unless they're breaking one of those rules

or you might add another rule to that. But we can't expect our three-year-olds to respectfully, calmly communicate when we can't yet, right? And we can't even expect at 15 that our kids are going to say, thanks, mum, for making me dock my phone out of my room at bedtime. I really appreciate the way you keep me safe from technology. You know, being honest,

what a gift you are. They're not going to do that. They're going to push back and they're going to say, you know, you're the worst mum ever or all of that stuff. I think we can not sweat that. So if they're saying you're the worst mum ever, is that one of the four, is that breaking a fourth one of the four rules? Oh, if they call you a bitch. Yeah. Because I get really offended when they say, you're the worst parent ever. I hate you. I'm going to say that. that's breaking a rules. Do you agree? No. That's your house rules though. They're your rules and your... I know, but I don't know whether... The boundaries are so murky.

They're gender rules. You've got your own rules. Set the rule and say if you tell me, if you... I don't know if that's an unreal unrealistic rule though. Do you know what I think your kid is really saying? When they say, I hate you and you're the worst out ever and, you know, and kids will go further. Kids will say, I want you to die or like...

And can I just... The reason why I don't know if that to me is a boundary, but I don't know if that's a realistic boundary for the modern age. If that's a boundary that's just been implemented to me by my mum. Can I tell you why that's a boundary for you? Because A, you're male and B, you're raised in the 90s? Yeah, 87 baby. Yeah.

So in your era of being raised, defiance was an issue. One of the things your parents had to do was teach you that if you said, I hate you, mum, I'm assuming you would have got punished or sent you room. Yep. And you learned younger than you. you realize that expression of anger towards my mum, not safe because even if she didn't smack you, what you learnt was it's not comfortable for me to express. And yet what we're trying to do here is allow our kids to express all their feelings.

Anger is a valid emotion. Anger is here to tell us something. This is why we're all in therapy trying to learn like, it's okay to feel angry. It's okay to feel sad. It's okay to feel joyful. So let's just take that. Defiance, particularly for dads, is the most triggering of the emotions or behaviour. is our kids can show us. Often for mums, it's winging and whining. A lot of women were told turn that

frown upside down. Nice girls don't winch. They just are polite. So winging and whining really gets to women. A lot of women, not all women, but like that's just common. And a lot of dads find that defiance or that big expression of, I hate you, you're the worst dad ever. It's like, don't you disrespect my authorities? And because- That's the best impersonation of me ever. because you were not allowed to do that and you learned that so young. So even though you can, this is what's confusing, because at a logical level, you're like, well, this is a five-year-old or three-year-old or seven-year-old, and I get it.

I've just said no. So should I allow it then? Well, let's take a step out from that. What is your child actually saying? I'll tell you right now, I'll decode it. Your kid is going, I hate this limit. And I'm seven, and it is so frustrating when I do. don't get what I want because I'm learning how to tolerate frustration and build these emotions

and build the skills to cope with it. And so I'm going to express it in a way that is clunky and kind of like, you know, it's loud and it's whatever, but it's not breaking one of Jen's court rules anyway. It's not breaking a rule. And they're not calling you a hurtful name. They're not hitting you. Would I let my kid kick me in the shins? Because I've set a boundary, absolutely not ever. I will always stop that behavior. I'll say, I'm not going to let you hit because actually we're leading. So we're not saying if you call, if you say that language, I won't do this for you later or if you kick me,

you're going to hurt my feelings. If kids are breaking a call rule, I'm stepping in to physically help them out always. But I think in that moment of a kid just expressing their emotions, and like I said, it can look like whinging or whining, it can look like a kid laying on the floor, it can look like a kid saying you're the worst parent ever. All of that is just the expression of,

this boundary feels hard. Our job is to hold the limit. So do I react at all? If one of my children says, you're the worst parent ever and this is the worst day of my life, how do I respond? I would offer myself genuinely some compassion. I would go, geez, this is hard to not lose my mind at my kid because actually this is super triggering. By not smacking them, by not sending them to their room in that moment, which is what would

have happened to all of us that is showing extreme restraint and it is extremely hard. because while you're consciously going, oh, I know I can't do that, your whole system is going, but we need to shut this down now. So you're going to feel really confused in that moment and your system is up in fight, flight or freeze. This is the moment that parenting is the absolute hardest. The kindest thing we could do for all of us is actually go, stuff is really hard. This is really hard for me. You could even say, I care about this situation and I am going to take a beat because I don't

want to say something I might regret and I will be back. Or you might say, I'm not going to say anything at all, I'm just going to step out. And you could do whatever you could to not be super explosive or reactive. You're not always going to catch that. And sometimes you're totally going to be explosive and reactive. And your own parents' words are going to come out of your mouth. And you've got to be really kind to yourself because that's going to happen. If they're like, you're the worst parent ever.

But I think my reaction is like, I'm sorry you feel that way. Yeah. Look. Right? Yes. You can say anything. It doesn't matter. I'm scared to what to say now.

No, it doesn't matter what you say. Because actually your kid is expressing their remote. What I would, the reframe I would do. I sometimes say, I don't care. I always say that. It's so mature. I always come back when it's like, you're the worst kid. I don't fucking care.

Yeah. If that's how you want to play it. I know you are. You said you are, but what am I? I do that. I do that all the time. I always do that. And it's like, it's petty.

I know, but sometimes I'll just repeat the behavior. Yes, I get why, right? Because your hand is tied behind your back. You've been told, don't go smacking or shaming here. And so then you're like, but the reframe I would give you is, what if you could narrate out loud what the underlying feeling is, which is your kid says, I hate you when you probably set a boundary. Yeah, yeah.

And then you say, I can see that you're really frustrated about the fact that this is now happening or this boundary has been set, you're allowed to be frustrated. You know, you could even say, I don't like the way you're speaking to me and I'm going to step out and take a breather so that I can regulate myself. Noted. You're allowed to be, you're allowed to be mad. But then if my kid, and I do think this is important, if my kid then tried to throw something at my head or kicked me or called me a name,

I would say, whoa. One of the four, you see these? Well, then if you do communicate that, They take it a step further. They break one of the four rules. They then throw a piece of Lego at you. It hits you in the head, Jen. Where do we go from there?

One of those big bits too. I'm talking like a 12-stacker. Lego is tame. At least it's not a chip. I would absolutely every day of the week, I would view that. And we've talked about the climb into dysregulation before. When a kid is throwing, hitting, calling your names, they are like they're at the point of no return.

They absolutely need two things. things, containment, and to get their system back to regulation. Right to general. Particularly for younger children, I am going to get very physically close to my child and go, usually I won't let you. I love the words, I won't let you. I won't let you. Kick me, hit me, hurt the dog, hurt your brother, spit, whatever it is that's happening,

I got you. And I would love parents to know what we're really doing there is genuinely from a place of love saying, hey, I can say you're not okay and I've got you. because actually no kid wants to be hitting, kicking, swearing, calling you names, breaking call rules, hurting their sibling, hurting the dog. They genuinely don't want to be. They don't.

Let's be honest. Some kids fucking love it. They don't. They don't. And this is the thing, even a kid that looks you in the eye and you're like, don't you do that thing? And remember we talked about your kid tipping water out of the bath? Yeah.

And then you said, don't you tip water out of the bath? and she's spat water in your face. And I said to you, that is an 8 out of 10 on the level of dysregulation. And she's definitely letting you know that's a boundary cross. I would go, whoa, you're getting out of the bath, wrapping you in a towel. She gets to have feelings about that.

The boundary stands. Your job is, am I willing to sit here and get spat in the face? No. That's a no. Right. Because it's the rule. So then my, and tell me if this is right or wrong. Yeah.

So the, let's say, I've been hit by the leg. go. Yeah. I come in close. I'm so sorry you had to experience that. Thank you very much. I then come in close. I say, I'm not going to, I'm not going to let you throw Lego at me. That's not allowed. They will probably, if I get close, then I'll start hitting me. Yeah. Right. So then I, my go-to is I'll put them in their room and shut the door. Yeah. And let them just calm down. Is that right or wrong? Look, there's no right or wrong. That is a way. That is a way to contain a kid. What I, I'll tell you what I would do. Please. I would come really close.

I would say, I can't let you throw Lego at me. And I'm coming in with this real sense of I've got you. And I'm probably ready if this is a younger child like nine and down because they're about to hit. I won't even let them get that first hit in. I want to be a hit detective. I'm like a ninja. I'm like, whoa, not going to let you hit either.

And I've got you. Do you have to train for that? Jams in and it's like, wax on, wax on. Six months in Japan. Wow. What you do need to do is be in the position. of I'm now leading. You now do not get to decide what's happening next.

I've got you. I would say the words, hey, I've got you. I would come from a place of compassion. I promise you, once kids are trying to hit you, their brain is offline. This is not a conscious choice.

They have flipped their lid. They are gone. And they actually, the kindest thing you could do is grab them and go, hey, I've got you. I would, in many cases, grab my kid.

I'm going to hold them from behind like in a bear hug. I'm going to sit on their bed or somewhere safe and go, in their ear, say nothing other than I've got you. Yeah, I've got you. And I will say nothing else till that system comes back to regulation. So I would love, because I can see your face, I want to my kids would say, don't touch me. Yeah, they'd say, you're hurting me. Yeah, get off me,

leave me alone. You're hurting me. This is child abuse. So do I keep on holding? Hold tighter. Yeah, yeah. So here is what I would love you to visualize. Because I hear this from kids as young as 18 months like my kid has a night terror but if I hold them from hitting me they lose it same with older kids I'll say stop it you're hurting me and I've had this my body my choice yeah no not in this instance no not if I'm keeping you safe so if my kid is banging the head against a wall I'm like whoa I'm not going to let you bang your head I've got you I'm going to hold you and they'll go let me go you're hurting me and I'll be like I can say you're having a really hard time I'm going to let you go once you're safe I've got you and I just hang there and I promise you if you do that

with confidence, they crest the hill and they're in tears. Okay. Right, they're coming to you. I want to give you an example. Just say, I come home tonight and I just sort of, I trip on some shoes. That's likely to happen. And I just, for whatever reason, I lose the plot and I start throwing plates at all my children and my husband and I'm throwing chairs and I'm screaming and ranting and I'm calling

everyone names. Are you playing the role of Jen right now or a child? I'm Jen. Okay, cool. Nice. So I'm Jen. And I flipped out. Like, this is, okay, out of character.

but just say this happens. Is it, Jen? Should my husband stand there and say, if you keep throwing plates at us, you'll get no Netflix tonight. Yeah? So should he say, please, you're hurting us.

Yeah, that seems appropriate. You're scarier. Stop it. Throw. Or should he say, whoa, you are not okay. I've got you. Honey, it's got to the bedroom.

We're not going to do this in front of the kids. It's like, I'm going to help you out. I can see you something's really up. This isn't like you. I've got you. I'm not going to let you hit me or the kids. And then you'd probably call the authorities, which we're not going to do for our kids. But even if a grown-up flipped their lid and they were throwing or hitting or breaking a rule like that,

wouldn't you think we would want someone to say, I've got you. This isn't like you. I'm not going to let you do this. You don't want to be behaving like this. Yeah. Now our children that don't have a fully formed prefrontal cortex. that have cortisol in their systems and all these big feelings, they're going to have all these big moments.

And I reckon our job once they cross one of those core rules or if something's just not working for us. So a lower level example is just say I'm trying to have dinner and one of my kids is really upset about dinner and he's going to wail and moan and yell throughout the whole of dinner and it's impacting a whole family. Then I might say you're allowed to be unhappy about dinner and I'm not going to make you eat the dinner.

But you know what? You cannot stay here and impact the rest of us. I'm going to walk you to your room. I'm going to take you in there. We're going to sit there for a moment. And if you want to stay in there and chill for a bit, you can. Or you can come back and behave, but you're not going to stay here. I'm not willing to let you stay at this table and keep impacting the rest of us.

As parents, we need to be able to step in and lead when our kids need our help. And if we could view that as kind, I reckon we do it better and swifter and calmer and more confidently. I was it. I mean, I can't argue with that. I'm not going to argue with it. I've got another hypothetical. Okay, and I've spoken about it a few times on the podcast. Gymnastics is a tricky environment because as they leave, they have a spinning wheel.

There's a couple of stickers on the wheel. It's like you spin this wheel. If it's a little flappy thing at the top lands on a sticker, they get to choose one of three toys. It's constant reward, isn't it? Right. And sometimes they win. It's great. But I pick up my two daughters and my niece.

and there's always one child who hasn't won. Sometimes... It's one in three, right? Yeah, actually, and it's worse. If they all lose, it's actually okay. Yeah. But the worst was two one, the third one didn't, being one of my daughters.

Yeah. And they flipped out, flipped out. And then it's also, I have to leave. So I'm like, you know, I communicate. I say, come on, that's, you know, we didn't win. That's okay. I know you're frustrated. At some point, communication wasn't working.

I had to just pick her up. Well, again, I'd go, is this working for me or my child to hang here and keep naming feelings? Let's get out of here. So we get, pick her up, go to the car, and she's still DefCon 5, having a massive blowout. And then I was like, I'm going to let it calm down. He put some music on in the car. I was like, when we get home, surely she would have calmed down. And it just, she just, for the rest of the night, was just in a mood, stroppy.

And every time I tried to like revisit, hey, I know you're really upset. And I know it must really be annoying when you don't win the toy. Every time I touched the topic, she would just flip out again. And I was like, I feel like at some point I need to say, enough's enough, this is ridiculous. Pull your fucking head in. I'm not going to swear. But like, I need to stop being soft and be like, you're being ridiculous now and this is not okay. The reality.

The reality really is that, because I'll do the same thing before you answer. It'll be, I'll completely be. compassionate in, to a point. To a point. But if you start to continue to cry about something that we're all over and we've, we've validated you about it, you're going to continue to carry on. Yes, Ash. At some point, I'm going to say to you, you're being a fucking idiot.

Yeah. And this is ridiculous. And you need to get over it because we're all over it. But it's interesting how much we want to get our kids back to feeling better, unless. Mainly because it's just. Therapy. It's very selfish of me But you kill all the fun fun

More so because especially when you're like Dinner, bath And then you're like you're like You've got to clean your teeth And they're like, oh Like the reactions to everything As much bigger off the back of this fucking wheel At gymnastics

What I hate the most is that they think we enjoy That like doing the bath and bed routine Like it's like I don't want to do this for you Not doing it for me, you know? I don't want to do this either Okay, you're making a word None of us want to be here Exactly. If it was up to me, you'd live in filth. I don't care?

Do I just allow them to be pissed off until they get over it the next morning when they wake up? Or do I have to try and force the reset? I don't think you can force a reset. And I think what I would reflect on is, like, you know, what's the problem with my kid being really disappointed, really frustrated that they didn't win and expressing that. And unless they're breaking a rule or there's something that's not working for you, you don't have to do anything about it. But I think it's a really interesting thing to tune into

because I think modern parents have been given a message that it is our job to make our kids childhoods magical. That it's our job to fix when our kids are sad. And so when our kids don't get fixed, when we can't make them turn the frown upside down, we start to feel frustrated or angry or annoyed. Like you failed a little bit. Yeah.

I also think for me, it's because they then start being disrespectful. So I'm like, hey, when we get home, one of the rules is you've got to put your lunchbox in the sink, right? And then they won't do that. And I say, hey, you've got to do that task. And they go, no, like, I don't care. And they start to any demand that I try and enforce. Is it breaking the rules, though, because you're, like, similar to what you were saying, sorry, did buddy.

But you were saying if it's impacting everyone else, in the house, you would physically step in and say, hey. Because, yeah, I feel like they're walking all over me then. Yeah. Like, the reflection I would go back to there. And again, this is so common for dads is this is feeling for you, I think, like defiance. This is like I'm meant to be in charge and you're meant to respect this rule. They're being rude, yeah.

Yeah, it's rude. And that's quite triggering. So first of all, awareness of, is this about me or is this about the kid in front of me? Is it a really important question to ask yourself? In terms of the lunchbox, these kids are. Like they're five, they're seven, how on? Seven and five, yeah. Seven and five.

Old enough to know better. Get a job. Let me tell you a story. Please. When my youngest son, I have a rule. I mean, I love rules. I mean, I'm, I can tell. I don't.

Literally. I kind of like rules a little bit. I wrote how many 200 and something pages of it? Not a single spelling mistake. So, I mean, I have a house of four boys. So I don't, it's not a. it's not like a family that I run. It's a mini prison.

It's a mini prison. You're awarded. Right. So I have to have a lot of rules because, you know, I got a lot of kids and that's got to work. One of my rules is that my kids have to bring their school bag in and unpack their lunchboxes every day and put it on the bench. Yep.

Right. That's a rule. Does that happen every day? No, everybody forgets. But if I said of them, bring your lunchbox, they will generally do it. Then my youngest started Kindi, right? And he is a kid that. finds the day at Kendi a lot.

And I'm bringing it back to the spinny wheel, right? So for your kid, that experience of missing out alongside other people that got the, you know, your sister and your cousin got the prize and you didn't, the frustration of like coping with the feeling, the bitter feeling, right? Of losing in the face of other people getting it. That is a lot to process. And another example, which is the story about my son, you know, for him getting through a day, of Kendi and like holding it together was a lot.

So we'd pull in the driveway and I'd say to all of my boys, okay guys, you know the deal, bags in, lunchboxes on the sink and he would just look at me in the eye like, well, that's not going to happen and he would walk inside. The bastard. Everybody. Now I did not ever in the whole year of Kendi or year one, I never made this kid. And this kid is specifically this kid because he was a kid that for lots of reasons found, the transition to school and being at school really, really hard.

So I did not ever make this kid do it. I trusted that this is a good kid. And when he's on, he's a really nice kid and I've seen him do really good and respectful things. But this kid has no more good in him. So when I asked, does this work for me? Does this work for my child? Or is this the hill I'm going to die on? In that moment for that kid, I'm going to go, you know what?

I'm going to model kindness here. And I'd say, you know what? I'm going to unpack your lunchbox. Now he does it. Like he's in your four. He is like he's so. awesome and he always does it when I ask and he never says no and like it's it's gotten there. But what I've chosen to do in that moment is to drop the demand.

But if he hit or swore or through something or, you know, was making his brother cry or was snatching, I'd be like, can't let you do that. Every day of the week I would set a boundary about that stuff. I would never not or if something wasn't working for me. This kid, right, I said no screams. Yeah. And we have a rule. No screens Monday or Friday.

One week on a random Tuesday, he just goes, I want screens. I'm like, well, you know, it's no-scoreen. You absolutely know. So there's, A, that's an unreasonable request. So I know he's a bit dysregulated just by the ask. And I go, absolutely not going to happen. Because I thought to myself, does it work for me? Does it work for my kid?

No, it doesn't. We're not going to do screens. I don't care how much you want it. I'm not going to do it. He then followed me around the house while I sort of cooked dinner and try to get some emails done, just whinging crying, whinging crying. Like, please, please, please, please, please. And eventually, I thought to myself, is this working for me?

working for my child and I was like it is not and I said you can be upset you can you may not any longer stand next to me while I type emails and cry about this you can't cry in your room I can't wait to know how the story ends well that's it he's banned you mentioned before wait so what happened oh you just let him deal with it on his own I just yeah I just said I'm done with this I've I've I had I had set the boundary in a way that was firm and kind I said hey I get it you really want screens we're not having screens on a Tuesday that's the rule you're be upset about it, but once he was kind of coming at me and winging at me for like an hour while I was trying to work, I just went, I'm no longer willing to sort of listen to this.

You're allowed to be upset. You're not allowed to sort of do it right on my work. Be upset somewhere else. Yeah. I use that. Which I can do because he's nine. And he's that little bit older and I can say, you're allowed to be upset. Go for it.

I get it. It's horrible having a mum that sets limits around screens. You can hate me. If he said, I hate you, I'd go, I get it. You hate these limits around screens. Jokes on you. I hate me too. I don't know if you feel like this, Ash, or Jen, if you feel like this, my biggest fear is

if you imagine the household being a prison and you have the rules. And once the rules are not being followed, then the standards are slipping. And the kids are like, oh, I can just have a big cry and all of a sudden I don't have to fucking put my bag away and it's great. That's, so my biggest fear is that once I allow the rules to not be in, I lose control. I lose control. Yeah. And yet we don't really have control.

You can't make a child eat. You can't make a child sleep. Watch me. Go to the toilet. But you can decide what you are willing to do or not do. The boundary is actually over what you will do. That's the reframe. So we're not trying to control our kids.

We're actually saying you don't have to sleep, but I'm not going to stay here and read another story. I'm done with stories. You can be mad about that. And I can't wait to see in the morning. And that's the boundary. Does that make sense? Yeah.

So actually I think of what we think, we think boundaries are a request, put your bag in the sink or your lunchbox in the sink or a statement in our family. We put lunchboxes in the sink. Statement of value. In our family, we don't jump on the couch. And our kids are like, well, I do that around here. I do. Yeah. I'm doing it right now.

Yeah. So the boundary is, I'm not going to let you jump on my couch. I'm going to help you down even when you're telling me you're not going to stop. I'm not going to ask more than once either. So the other three boys who had to put their lunchboxes away themselves Didn't get a similar treatment. What do you do if you get, and I have this all the time with Oscar and Macy, it's got to be like a one for all situation right,

where it's like, okay, well, if he doesn't have to do it, why do I have to do? What do you do with that? One's getting special treatment. One's getting special treatment according to the other one. I get this every night. Okay, yeah, we got four of them. I remember once my youngest threw a fork across the table at my eldest. And the context is my eldest had poked and poked and poked and poked.

And finally my youngest, I think he was about seven at the time. He snapped and he threw a fork. I flew around the table. The boundary is I'm not going to let you throw forks. It's not safe. And I held his hand. And my eldest goes, are you joking? Is that all you're going to do to him?

I do the same. I hit him, mom, get him. And he has valid points. On one hand, also, there are things I would have done when I was raising my eldest that like I can do differently now because I'm like, I know I don't need to send you off to your room for this. I know how to sort of help him in the moment. And I said to him, you know, I get it.

It feels really unfair right now that sort of he's done something that feels really wrong and you feel like more should happen, you know, and I kind of validated that emotion that he had. I think that kids will always feel like things are unfair. So if one kid is being told you don't have to clean up your room or you don't have to bring your lunchbox in or we're sort of letting a kid off the hook and another kid we're expecting to do more

because they're older or just more capable, they're going to find that really frustrating. And our temptation, I think, is to either juggle madly to make everything even. Like, okay, fine, I'll even it up. Or we might say, do you know how much we do for all of you? Like, you know, we sort of, we go one way or the, other, I think the single biggest thing you can say, and it is so hard to do in the moment,

is actually just stop and go, this feels really unfair. It feels like your brother's just done totally the wrong thing or he's not helping out. And we're expecting you to bring your lunchbox in every day. And here he is, getting away with it, that must really suck. And then you can say, but I love you more. But I, you do way more things than him. Yeah. Don't tell him I said that. Don't tell him I said that, I slip 20 bucks in your pocket.

I just think actually though our kids just want to feel seen. Yeah, it's so true because it's like I know with Oscar he is more. Because you can't make it even. He's more capable than Macy and it's one, a couple of reasons. Yes, he's older. Two, he's just got more experience in some of the other things. So I'll be like, I'll be like, well, why don't you help it? Why don't you show her how to do it?

You know what I mean? Like you just show her how to do it if, you know, so that way you do it together. I don't know. So I would say to the other words, I know it's really hard. I know that you're watching him get away with not doing this. And I know that's really bad. I think back to when I was younger and I'd be like, it's kind of like gladiated, like a spectacle. I'm like, oh, surely she'll get a fucking smack for that.

And then she does it and I'm like, come like, bring it. Yeah. Release the tigers. We want blood. I always think there's no child sort of more happy to suddenly be an angel than the child, then the sibling of a child that just got in trouble. And that sibling's like, I know.

And I give that. I'm just going to use my knife and fork. Yeah, more than I usually do. I always give it. Mum, I love you. Yeah, yeah. Mom, thanks for this delicious dinner. Did I even tell you you're the best, mom?

I always pull Oscar up because when Macy's getting in trouble, he'll just be lingering. Yeah. In the area. And I'll be like, I'll be like, one moment, Macy. Aye! And I'll be like, you would hate it. If you're getting in trouble, Macy's there lingering. You're lingering.

I'm not. I'm going to go do something and he'd be like, what do I do? What do I do? You just want to be around. Of course he does. There is a question here. I want to give a shout out to Tamara Lee.

Tamer Lee. Tamerle. Tamerle. Tamarle. Tamarie. Tamara Lee. Beautiful cakes. Yeah.

Oh, that's Sarah Lee. Sarah Lee. Damn it. She wants to know about fights between siblings. At what point do you allow it to happen and what point do you step in? Such a good question. So if we set our core rules, which we've done today, which is no hitting, no name calling, when someone's crying and we stop and we check on them, right?

If we've got those going and no damage to property, then we've got a bit of a guardrail for at what point do siblings need help when one of those core rules is being broken. I am every day of the week going to let my kids know that whenever that's happening, I will be here right by your side to break you. guys are up and help you with this. That's caused so much anxiety for me. Like just hearing them together. Yes.

I'm like, when's it going to happen? So sibling fighting is one of the biggest challenges in parenting. Most parents will rate that as one of the biggest causes of stress. And I think there's often when things are really stressful for us, it's because it threatens a value. One of the values or the hopes we have for our kids is that one day they will get along, that they will be there for each other when we are maybe not there one day. I think there's a real hope around siblings.

And sometimes when they're not getting along, we view that as a failure in them or in our parenting. And there's a lot of value placed around it. But if we strip that back, sibling fighting is healthy, it's normal. It's how kids learn about conflict and negotiation. So once we've established... Sometimes it's fun to watch as well.

Yeah. Fight to the death. It's never fun, ever. No, it's not. Take that out, Vic. I'm just going to leave this baseball about here. and the chains over this side. And I'm going to eat this popcorn.

Yeah, I've got my money on Oscar. Yeah, he's definitely going to win. So once we've got our core rules, now we can make ourselves rather than like a constant referee where we're going to blow in the whistle, we're going to take turns, I'm going to be in the middle of everything.

What if we try to be a bit more like a really good coach? So a really good coach is not reffing the game. They're kind of, if anything, giving a little bit of feedback. but they're not intervening. So if my kids come to me and say, he won't share and he touched my thing and like blah, blah, blah, I'm probably going to go, oh, gee, this sounds really tricky, guys.

That's it. That's it. That's the end of the conversation. Work it out. But it's actually like inviting them into, you can add, I wonder how you guys are going to sort this out. I know you guys are really capable. And you can hear screaming and you can hear all kinds of things that's annoying and loud and chaotic and kind of go,

what if we flip it and go, what a wonderful opportunity for my children to learn about conflict and negotiation. I, I, I don't know. My brain's just like, shut them up, shut them up any way you can. But again, you know, you might just go, you might go, I hear two kids and you're both wanting the one toy. I wonder how you guys are going to work this out.

So that's a good coach. Ding ding, ding, ding. A good coach is narrating. And then you hear that sound that indicates someone's just about to biff someone in the face. And you're like, whoa, I'm here, not going to let you hit. So the core rule is where I step in. But I want to give you one more tip. Please.

If we can coach the low level stuff every now and then. And I would say I've gone from being a, what I say? Coach to imagine you're calling a horse race. Imagine your two kids. I'll just give you an example that I've lived like a thousand days in my life. There are two kids on a trampoline. And I can hear that sound that you know any minute someone's going to be crying or hurt, right? You know it.

As a parent, you're like, oh, why do they do this? You can hear it. What I learned to do instead of cut it out and get off him, how many times have I told you? Which may stop that thing in the moment, but rinse and repeat 20 minutes later, the same behaviour is going to happen. I want them to learn the skills to navigate this stuff on their own so that I'm not in the middle. What I would do is come alongside the trampoline and go, I see two guys. And I can say you're having a lot of fun, but I'm looking at Liam's face and I can kind of hear him crying. I wonder if he's not liking this game.

Now I'm kind of narrating exactly what I'm seeing from a social level in terms of body language and what people are showing and what they're enjoying. You can do this with friends, with siblings. What we're doing is actually helping them to spot the pre-explosion signs in each other and know when to pull back and how to repair from it. And with a bit of practice, if you narrate that, kids learn and they genuinely do. I've then been by the trampoline years later, heard the build and then they heard that, oh, are you okay?

Okay, we can do it this way. And I'm like, oh, this is amazing. But they do learn the skills. And that learning how to narrate that stuff is probably one of the biggest changes to my parenting of four kids. I learned that because I've spent many years in the office of beautiful occupational therapists because my kids needed help with regulation. And so I learned this skill of narrating out loud what's happening.

Like, I see two kids and I can see how much you want to take that toy out of your siblings' hand. I'm not going to let you snatch. you know what can we do while we're waiting I get that it's hard to wait you're just narrating the experience just some of the time I wouldn't say we do that all the time

but I just walk around and I was going oh no I was taking a poo and that's what you did wash his hands watch your hands what your hands MXG flush thank you thank you thank you we're going to go up by mostie there's mace you're still in the cows watch you watching something she shouldn't perfect let's keep going

that's exactly what I would do before we go Jen I want to end on a little boundary problem that I seem to be having with my beautiful wife April yeah she doesn't do it a lot wrong. Actually, she does nothing wrong.

She's an angel. Good, good cover. April. April is an angel. Her is at home now. She was like, something's not right. What is it,

mom? I don't know. I don't know, but your dad's in trouble when he gets home. So, and it happens a little bit. I always say that she's her father's daughter

because he's a pushover as much as I love him and love his support. Save myself there too. Hello, father-in-law. The other day, April made brownies for my birthday, okay? And we had them and we sat down to have dinner.

And the kids were hungry but didn't eat, didn't want to eat because they knew what was coming after. But I was like, I can't give you brownies because you haven't eaten your dinner. So I proceeded to eat the brownie in front of them. Both April and I did that because they didn't eat any of their dinner. And I said, we'll try again tomorrow. Anyway, when I went to go shower the kids, I could peer it over the kitchen.

I saw Macy upset about the situation and giving April a cuddle. And I was like, where's this going to end? Because I knew where it was going to end where she had managed to tell the kids that it's like, I'll put some in your lunchbox tomorrow. Yeah. And completely broke the boundary that I had set, which was we'll try again tomorrow night at dinner. Because she's such a pushover, God lover.

I knew it. I got a kick out of it because I can read her so well. Yeah. But I was like, how do I pull my wife in line? here with the boundary. So we're on the same team. I don't think you have to. I don't think you have to.

I think that we can have different approaches. Like I often joke. My kids know that if my husband is doing bedtime, they can get one more story and one more this and one more that. And he's okay with that. Like that works for him. As the primary caregiver for the bulk of our parenting years, I was done when I was done.

And it was a kind of thing for me to say, I've done your two stories and I'm out. And they kind of got to learn that that is probably the one that's going to flex on that. And mum is not. And I think that's good for kids. I think that's okay. Wow. I thought it was like one rule.

Consistency is key. I think what matters more is that if something doesn't work for you, you can authentically as the parent hold your line. Like I think that if something was not working for April, like, you know, the kids were standing on her and she was like, that's uncomfortable. I don't want it. that she'd feel comfortable to say, I want you off me, you can sit next to me, I don't want you standing on me, it hurts.

So I think being authentic about what works and doesn't work for us is more important than us all being unanimous on every rule. Yeah, because I was like, I could have easily been like, no, you need to stay. But I know what she's like and I know that that resolution for her would have worked better for her and for the kids. And it's a bit of a compromise. You said, we'll try again tomorrow. It was tomorrow.

I don't mind it. I'm wrong. Is that what you're saying? No. I think both of the... If you want us, we can cut that out of the podcast. I think you're both wrong. I just think that we don't have to be even. Like, you know, when we look at that, who's more on that kind side, who's more on that

firm side, what if we look at it as how lucky are these kids to have someone that leans a bit more that way and someone that leans a bit more that way because they're getting all of their needs met. And that's really wonderful. I don't like it. Jen, thank you so much for coming in. Thank you for having me. I love.

chatting to you guys and I will come anytime you call. You mean that? Yeah. Good. Because there's a few more topics. A lot of people are asking about teenagers specifically. So you will come back. I will.

Potentially covering off teenagers. They scare the shit out of me, man. Absolutely. Teenagers are beautiful and there's nothing to fit. I am loving. I am loving being a mum to a 15 year old and a 17 year old. And all the rumors and lies out there are wrong. Okay.

If there's any other specific questions that you want, Jen to cover off or focus on for a whole episode, let us know. We could do a whole Q&A. Yes. Otherwise, check out her book, which is called Why Kids Need Boundaries. Okay. It's available in all good bookstore, so thank you again. We'll leave a link at our show notes.

Yeah. Thanks, Jen. Thanks, Jen. Thank you, guys. Ash, be honest, how do you think I went with Jen? Terribut. I know, I got her. There was one moment where she looked concerned.

She looked over for help and I was like, no one's going to help you here, Jen. Right? She seemed to help herself pretty quickly out of that. She was very good. She was very good. And we'll get Jen back again. Countless times because she has so much to give us and the listeners.

So if you have any topics you want Jen to touch on, please send us an email. I do sometimes wonder, I think to myself, what is the partner of Jen Muir like? She talks very highly of her husband and I'm like, I want to meet this guy. I bet you he runs a touch. Ship. Should we get him in?

He won't. He wouldn't do it. Let's get Jen back. Does he exist? Oh, is Jen even a parent? Yeah, she is. If you've enjoyed this episode, please. It's just because I lost the other.

You lost the argument. It's just because I didn't catch her out. I'm now spreading rumors about her. Vicious rumor. If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review. Suggest any other experts or parents or whoever you want to hear from on the pod. Make sure you subscribe. Follow us.

Everywhere, Two Doding Dads, TikTok, Facebook. Yeah. Instagram. YouTube shorts. Instagram. Instagram. And I just want to say, from the bottom of my heart, it is an absolute pleasure and a privilege to bring this episode to you week and week out.

Why are you laughing? I'm just trying to be sincere. All right. Stop him. Let's get out of here. Okay. Bye. Bye.

Two Doting Dad's podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gatigal Land.