Two Hot Takes - 111: If It Sounds Like a Cult..

Episode Date: April 20, 2023

Two Hot Takes host, Morgan, is joined by guests Amanda Montell and Isa Medina of Sounds Like a Cult! This episode features stories that have us questioning is this a cult? Is it a green flag cult or a red flag/you need to run cult? And are you wondering if you've ever been in a cult now after hearing how broad the definition is?! Can't wait to hear your takes on these stories.  Check Out Sounds Like a Cult: https://linktr.ee/soundslikeacult?fbclid=PAAaaW9KQT9BAxlQjj4SLtzx0_CwRSCmcpC8YbfKayA5HFVpfwBvWZNwSYe1U Patreon Bonus Content: https://www.patreon.com/TwoHotTakes Watch our Iceland Travel Vlog!!! https://youtu.be/FISXcwnw49E Our SubReddit to Submit YOUR Stories!!! https://reddit.app.link/twohottakes Full length Video episodes available on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TwoHotTakes Partners: Skylight Frames: Get 10% off at SkylightFrame.com/TAKES PDS Debt: www.PDSDebt.com/THT Thrive Market: ThriveMarket.com/tht PayPal Honey: JoinHoney.com/THT

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And there's going to be some Q&As to see what guests you'd want to see, so be sure to head over to Spotify and look for those polls for this week's episode. Thank you! I like how, like, your research or whatever you have pulled up, it's just Reddit. Oh, yeah. No, we don't stray too far from the mother ship. Yeah. We gotta pull from Reddit. But I mean, I went off on all the subs. I don't usually go past three main subreddits.

Okay. So for you guys, I pulled out all the stops. Oh my gosh. All the stops. Oh no. I'm excited. I am too. You look so cozy, man.

I don't get out of bed often, but when I do, this is like the next stop. The next step is another bed, but in a couch. Yeah. Well, and then I'm like, okay, this is a cult episode. And what better way to rep than my personal favorite cult of Disney? Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, it's got to all connect today.

Yeah, absolutely. We love a theme. So thank you for dressing appropriately. We love that. Yeah. I mean, we have an episode on the cult of Disney adults. So it's like, you know, one of our top episodes and we wore Mickey ears for it. Oh, okay.

See, I should have picked that one when I was doing my research, but I listened to Peloton and Momfluencer. Oh, Momfluencer is a big one too. We got stories on both today. Oh, Liz. So let's go ahead and get you guys introduced. Hi guys. Welcome back to another episode of Two Hot Takes.

I'm your host, Morgan. Today I'm joined by Issa and Amanda of Sounds Like a Cult. Yeah. What's up? Join us. I know I was listening too. I'm like, God, people say I have a good podcast voice, but I'm like, you too. And one of you has the cutest little laugh.

I don't know. Who is it? Is it Chip Monkey? It might be Amanda. You're just like, fuck. You just shut down. I saw it in your face. You're like, oh my God.

I know. I like, well, I have so many laughs. Amanda has a lot of laughs. That each means something different. Yeah. She's really good at fake laughing too, which is like scary. Yeah. Aren't we all?

Sometimes I'm like, did you, were you actually laughing at that? But then the frightening part is that I'm not sure. Yeah. She doesn't even know. I don't know. I don't know. You get a little bit last in the sauce. It happens.

Well, you guys are cult experts. Amanda is- You wrote like a fucking book on it. Amanda's a cult language expert. True. And I am like, if Amanda's a PhD, I am undergrad high school diploma. Okay. High school.

I think I have like, I think I have a community college degree. I was going to say, I was going to say at least sophomore year based on the episodes I listened to. So like, don't sell yourself short. No, you're right. I mean, now that we've been like working together for like a year and a half, I'm like, I've learned from Amanda. And I feel like it's like our listeners too, you know, they-

Oh, for sure. I mean, our whole, you know, sort of crusade is to communicate that the word cult is so objective and sensational and alarmist. It can mean almost anything depending on the context. So there are people who sort of tout themselves as these like academics, sociologists, cult experts. But like, we're all experts in our own cult experiences. And ESA has a lot of those.

Oh yeah. You must be the one that got sucked into Peloton recently. Yes, I did. Because- I've been considering. It's honestly amazing. And every podcast that I mentioned Peloton in, I'm like, send me a bike. I am marketing you so much.

Please send me a bike. But my gym has a bike. So that's why I go. And it's just like fun and easy. And it's like not that expensive. I mean, SoulCycle is so expensive. It's like 35 a class and you have to get the shoes like- Yeah.

No, I do class pass. So you get to go to like a bunch of studios for one price. I'm like, it's all I can handle. And I still don't use my credits because I can't get out of the house. Yeah. Because you're so comfy. The very live your life thing to do is to have a class pass and be- Well, I guess cult of class pass.

We haven't looked into that one. But it allows you to- It is also a cult. I'm sure it is. But it allows you to like dip your toe. They did just add SoulCycle this year. There we go. Oh my God.

Actually, a cult followed Peloton instructor listened to our episode. Wait, she DM'd me. Was it the Latina one? No. Oh, but that's amazing. No, I posted a Reels about it. Hannah Frankson is, I think, her name. She's British.

Oh, the one from the UK. Yeah. And she was like, they did us. We're a live your life. Oh my God. Yeah. But another instructor from New York DM'd me and was like, I heard you on the podcast. Come to a class in studio whenever you want.

And then I gave her my dates. She was like, well, those dates aren't available. So not whenever I want. Well, it is funny because like we interpret cult so loosely and we have like our cult categories live your life, watch your back and get the fuck out. And it's funny how the brands that we cover on our show approach our interpretation of the word cult because Peloton, they're obviously either like, they obviously really get it or they're trying to get in front of it.

And then there are some brands who are offended. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll probably encounter some of those today. But let's dive in. Yeah. Let's do it.

Okay. So I went to my own family and I was like, okay, you guys, we have a cult episode coming up and we have had a lot of two hot takes listeners that have been a part of like actual events, but I just want to like have you guys define what you feel a cult is. I think I will let Amanda take that one. Well, the tricky part is that there is no hard and fast definition of the word cult. I was hoping when I set out to write and talk about the subject matter that my personal understanding of the word become would become clearer and more specific, but the opposite

happened. There are people who've tried to come up with like official criteria of like this is what a cult is. There's a charismatic leader and us versus them mentality, supernatural beliefs and ends justify the means philosophy, but the trouble exit costs. Exit costs. There you go. Okay.

Okay. Sophomore. I'm chugging beers in my dorm room. 100%. No, you get it. But then there, the trouble is that there are so many groups that have been or could be called cults, these like fringe fanatical groups that won't check off every box. And yet there are mainstream institutions from government bodies to Silicon Valley corporations

that really, really will check off every box. So it's a sort of thing where the word cult is not enough to illuminate if a group is dangerous or not. And that's why we have our cult categories. I love that. Which can you say them one more time? Cause I heard them and I was like, oh. Yeah.

So we categorize every cult that we cover and it's a live your life, which is like a green flag. Watch your back like yellow, literally watch your back or get the fuck out level cult, which is this like red flag, red flag, you're in a cult. Get the fuck out. Yeah. Those are solid. Yeah.

I hope that's on Merch. We don't have Merch and we need to make some girls. They're begging it. I know it's silly. It's silly. We just like need help. We need help. I mean, you do this podcast on your own.

Yeah. It's a one, one girl show over here. So you probably know it's a lot of work. It is. Merch is a tough one too. We, we, the two hot takes people. We've had a tough go with Merch. I can tell you that much though.

We'll chat after. We have so many little taglines that we want to put on sweatshirts. Like Issa, whenever she wants to make a sort of contrary point, she says devil's avocado. That's gotta go on a shirt. Listeners have drawn the devil's avocado for us. It's cute. It's like a little avocado with devil ears. I love that.

Yeah. That's a good one. Do butcher sayings like I do. Yeah. Butcher everything. Yes. But in the most charming of ways. Thank you.

Okay. I'll let you, I'll let you go on with this. Okay. Let's get into it. So the first sub we are pulling a story from today is r slash cults. Already promising. But it's a place for discussion about cults and other new age religious movements. So this post is from 17 days ago.

Only 85 upvotes, which is like such a contrast compared to the am I the asshole we usually read. So it's titled am I in a cult slash high control group? I would like your perspective. Am I in a cult? I'm going to list a few laws of the group I'm in and I'd like feedback on if it sounds cultish, high control or not. One, no sex before marriage.

I think this is a pretty normal for most religions, but if it's found out that you've broken this rule and you confess, you will be put out for a certain amount of time and you aren't allowed to speak to anyone in quote, good standing. Silencing rules, classical red flag. I'm already trying to figure out like what group this is too. We have more, maybe we'll find out. Number two, not allowed to get a nose slash face piercing. If I do, I will be shamed and asked to take it out.

Number three, I'm not supposed to paint my nails any color that isn't natural. So I have to do like soft pinks or nude colors. Someone was given gloves to wear on a Sunday because their nails were an inappropriate color. It's also recommended that you not dye your hair on natural colors. Number four, no drinking or drugs of any kind, even weed. And if it's found out and you confess to either of these things, you can be put out for a certain amount of time.

Number five, you are supposed to report in every week to let them know if you will or will not be in attendance to meetings. If you will not be in attendance, you're supposed to give a reason why. There are many more things, but based on these things, does it sound like a cult? That's my question. They say that these limitations are to help you basically stay away from sin or stay safe in the world. But as I get older, they feel suppressive.

It sounds like a cult. Yeah, you know what's wild is that? Well, first of all, well done finding the right reddit thread for us. Beautiful, beautiful. Gorgeous. But I will say there are some of those rules that remind me of rules that existed at the somewhat cult like media startup where I used to work, like not tying your hair on natural colors because you'll misrepresent the brand only having your nails painted like chic natural

colors. We could your boss also check if you were a virgin. Yeah, but only on the first day. Let's get in there. There was no follow up. But I mean, I'm really trying to guess what group it is. I would guess that it's a sort of like Christian youth groupie, self-help, like volunteer. Or like youth group Mormon group?

Maybe. Maybe. Like what does put because like the thing that caught me was put out. Like are they are they living in the institution and then they like get kicked out? It sounds outpatient to me. Oh, yeah. Like what if it's like a shelter, like a religious shelter? So it's like they have to follow the rules or else they get like put out.

Oh, or maybe it's a recovery group because like recovery space is religious. It's like a religiously undertone, maybe like rehabilitation type group because the recovery space is like prime territory for cults to emerge and and Mary's well with like religious dogma. Yeah, we did an episode on the cult of 12 step programs. Yeah. Oh, I could see that. And it is the language around that is really interesting to just from friends that have

become sober and like have used the 12 step program. They're like, I had to transition because that in itself was almost triggering that the language they use. My whole the whole idea for my book was because my one of my best friends started going AA and started speaking in this register that felt like full of cliches and it was obviously building solidarity for her and helping her stay sober. But it sounded undeniably cult like it's so wild and it really can be. I mean, there's so many things even like reading this and like the don't paint your nails,

don't dye your hair on natural colors. I'm like, is this a sorority? Like I'm almost like and even when I was a flight attendant, like when I was a flight attendant, they were so particular. You cannot have on natural colors. You can't dye your hair. Yeah. Your uniform like needs to keep fitting.

I mean, you can buy another one, but it's going to cost you the money. Like that is so culty. It's just like these little like tangents or we all have these cult like things in our life just on a daily basis that we don't even realize where it's like. Yeah. Totally. And the crazy thing is, is like, it's how those rules are implemented. I feel like like that's the most important part because like I feel like a lot of institutions

have rules because they just don't want like chaos. Yeah. But it's like how far are they willing to go when someone doesn't follow the rule and it's like to be completely put out. It sounds like in this group. And that's psychological abuse. Absolutely. And the euphemistic undertone to like put out like it's hard to know what exactly

that means from this description. It feels like the person writing it was almost like they were vague on purpose. Yeah. Well, I'm going through their comments too. And they respond to people a lot throughout the comments. So there's a lot of, you know, people asking, what are you in? Are you open to sharing? There's other people that are, you know, more directed and they go, yes, the watch tower

is a cult and OP replies and says, I'm not a JW, but it's definitely similar. Okay. Jehovah's Witness for those unfamiliar. Yeah. There's another one. There you go. There's other people that are like, there is a bit of a social movement starting among evangelicals who have left the more extreme churches.

They're calling it deconstruction and OP goes, yes, I'm not Christian, but I had listened to some deconstruction stories and it always resonates. Okay. So not under the Christian umbrella. Yeah. So it might, maybe it's, maybe it's new age because like there is a pipeline from X evangelicals, X Protestants to people who get really involved with new age communities because a lot of the underlying ideology is the same.

Like they're the same sort of like good versus evil binaries, like a rapture, like a second coming is very similar to the idea of like a paradigm shift or a great awakening or like maybe, yeah, maybe it's like a sort of life coachy pseudo mental health space with like some evangelical inspiration behind it. Yeah. I could see that. There's a bunch of really great questions too that are like, do people get shunned by family and friends if they chose to leave?

Is there a leader who operates with impunity? Are members allowed to question authority? Does the group claim to know and understand the one and only truth of all things? Are members discouraged from reading, watching and listening to materials that are not approved by leadership? Are members blamed for their problems and emotions such as being told they don't have enough faith or their heart isn't right instead of being listened to and understood? Those are great questions.

And OP goes, all of the things you listed above, apply to my group. Yeah. Well, OP, you got to get the fuck out. This is red for sure. Yeah. This is red flags. This is red flags. And it's interesting that they recognize that their group is checking off every single box.

But they still crave the label of cults to signify like, for sure I need to GTFO, which is so funny how we like crave that type of labeling, even though the labeling is arbitrary. It's like, are you being abused or not? It also is funny. Something we talk about a lot on the podcast is how like not all cults are bad. That's why we give the label of live your life to some cults because people see community and that's how you feel at home and safe in certain spaces. And so it sounds like maybe this person is reconciling with the fact that they are in

this community and maybe they get that community comfort aspect out of it, but they're like, oh no, there are some bad parts of it. Well, and it's also too. It's like, if this is your norm and you grew up in this, which I think there is another comment here that someone was like, how did you get involved in this? And they do say that they were raised in it. Oh, interesting. And so if that's your norm, like this is something that I was like asking myself to get ready

for this episode, but I'm like, how do you know if this is your norm and that's all you've ever known? And even with abusive relationships, it takes people so many attempts to finally leave. Absolutely. And even labeling it as an abusive relationship sometimes like doesn't help. And so people, it's kind of the same with cults. Even though they know it's a cult, they're like, well, it's comfortable. It's safe.

It's all I've ever known. So it's like, ah, how do you like get people out even when they have finally realized? Yeah. Cause I feel like labels sometimes like make it easier to ignore. It's kind of like when like, you know, like you put like a limit on your Instagram and then it's like reminding in 15 minutes, like you remove the limit on Instagram. And it's like, sometimes you can just pick like, don't remind me for the rest of the day.

I feel like once you know that you're like, oh sure, like it's a cult or it's a toxic relationship, then you just kind of like forget about it even more. Or you self justify, like there's so much at play. We talk about some cost fallacy on our show all the time. Oh my God. Yeah. And it's important to ask ourselves every day. I mean, maybe we're not a part of like a sort of fringy group like this, but like,

we're all born into institutions that are cult like and feel completely normal to us. Like the first one that comes to mind is like, we did an episode on the cult of weddings. Oh my God. Culture. Okay. Thank you. Because I literally have a story today and I was like, the more I think about cult, I'm like, wedding culture is a cult.

It is. And like the way that like everyone, every bride wears the same color dress and like everyone stands on different sides of the aisle and like you walk like your daughter down the aisle and hand her over. That is so culty. The gender conformity and like the moment you get engaged, there's so much pressure to drop your former identity and just get on this conveyor belt and conform, conform, conform. It's like, you think I'm so radical, I'm going to completely personalize the experience,

but then there is so much cultural pressure just to like do what's always been done. And it's a permission structure to like manipulate all your friends and family because you as a bride are like, you know, pressured to fulfill a cult leader role in a sense, but you're also yourself. It's a mind fuck. Well, and it's like, it's my day. I'm getting married and we always say it's, it's, it's their day. Let them do what they want.

It's their day. Yeah. So it's so interesting, but well, okay. I'm going to save that. I'm just like, here we go. Yeah. The HD Morgan just everywhere today. But yeah, I think this, this OP definitely needs to run.

I'm going to, I'm going to send them the link after the episode comes out, but yeah, it sounds like they're getting a lot of support in the comments and someone mentions the bite model. Yeah. I was going to mention that too. So that is a sort of rubric for diagnosing if you're in a cult like organization or not, that was created by a psychologist named Steven Hassan. And he's just like, he's one of these sort of like PhD psychologist cult experts.

He was a Mooney. He was in the unification church and then he got out. But what is funny though is that these sort of like cult recovery space can get kind of cult like too, because everybody has their ideology of like, this is how you recover from a cult. Well, we always like see the same pattern, which is that like if someone leaves a cult, they usually join another cult without even knowing it because like what they're really seeking as like we said is like community, but it's like they're drawn to the same energy

always. Okay. So now I'm questioning what cult Justin switched to when the Hillsong departed. Yeah, dude. There's so many celebrities involved in Hillsong. Oh, I know. It's insane. So I'm like, even Chris Pratt, like the big Hillsong boy, I was never a part of Hillsong.

Yes. It's, it's crazy to me. Well when you leave a group like that or when a group like that disbands, you're craving for like belonging and ritual and identity. Like that doesn't go away. So it's like, where are you supposed to find that? And it takes some like creativity and self, you know, critical thinking and analysis to be able to be like, okay, I need to get, I need to fill this part of the void here and

this part of the void and this other group so that I don't get too involved in a dogma, but it also feels really good to immerse yourself in just one group and one ideology. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I feel that I'm stuck in the Reddit whirlpool. So, you know, and we want to have you on our podcast to talk about the cult of Reddit. Oh God, you guys, it's going to be a good one.

Cause wait, really quickly, like OP is that original poster? Oh, okay. Cult language. Cult language. You guys, I was like, I don't know what that means. Oh, and there's a whole system of like, you have this very public downvoting and upvoting. It's a whole system of like, you need to conform to what the top vote is almost saying. So I'm like, just, we're going to do it.

We're going to do it. We had a Reddit thread about our podcast. I have my own that I started and I'm like, sometimes I regret it because I don't need the hate comments on my own sub. Oh yeah. Dude, I mean, just it's the cult of Reddit and we will talk about it, but all these social media cults are just like so disembodied and I feel like they really bring out the lack of empathy in people.

Yeah. But they also bring community. So then it's like, what are you going to do? Are they sure to? A hobby, you know, there's a lot of good to be said for them, but I can't wait to actually like really get into it. It'll be, it'll be a good episode. Yeah.

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Skylight frame also has a 100% satisfaction guaranteed. So if you don't love your skylight frame, they'll offer you a full refund. If you want to try it for yourself, now as a special Mother's Day offer, get 10% off up to $30 off your frame when you go to skylightframe.com slash takes. That's right to get 10% off up to $30 off your purchase of a skylight frame. Just go to skylightframe.com slash takes. That's S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T-F-R-A-M-E.com slash takes. So this next one I have for us, it's from Emma the asshole, actually, but flew super

under the radar. It was posted 13 days ago, but only has 33 upvotes and like 28 comments. So in terms of what I normally read, like that's nothing. Do they have downvotes too? They don't show the downvotes. The downvotes essentially just takes away from that top number. So say like... Ooh, that's culty.

Mm-hmm. Because then it's like maybe it only has 33 upvotes, but that's because someone's trying to bury it. Yeah. Ooh. You know. Got sent to someone's group and they could come up. Oh, I can so easily see how if I was in a certain unwell mental head space, I would

get soul control. I know, I know. You've already done that. I've already done it. I know what you've done. I'm not gonna mention. I know, I have. No, I haven't.

I'm just like sending to them. I know because like it is so, it is just like it is so hard to have people say things about you on the internet. Yeah. But let's get into it. Yeah. We've all had to grow tougher skins, at least me, myself and I. Yeah.

So this one is titled, Would I be the asshole if I told my friend's daughter that her mom led a cult? One of my male closest friends, female Beth, died 20 plus years ago due to illness. We met through work and I became extremely close to both her and her husband Ted, much younger, closer to my age. I was one of a group of friends that formed a close-knit group of men devoted to Beth. She had very strict rules about what was or wasn't acceptable behavior in order to be in her inner circle and Ted often referred to her as a priestess.

FYI, it was a gradual progression which made it seem normal. I didn't fully realize it at the time, but I think I had suspicions that it was a cult, which I now know it was. Beth had a daughter, Meg, 20, from a previous marriage who did not live at home and was not privy to the nature of the relationships we had with her mother, which were intimate and sexual. All Meg saw was the adoration and attention we gave her mom, especially Ted, who doted on her.

Her bio dad was in the picture, but he was pretty clueless as to what was going on. I maintained a friendship with Meg after Beth's passing, but everyone else in the group went no contact with her, as well as each other, including Ted, and she still has no idea why. Meg is now in her 40s, very, very single. She has told me that she would like a relationship like the one her mom and Ted had, but I also know that Meg has absolutely no idea what was going on. Part of me feels guilty for not saying anything so that she can try to get a healthy perspective on relationships and understand why everyone went no contact with her.

I am concerned that by doing that, it will taint the memory she has of her mother. They were close. I also know that Beth did not want her to know, so I would feel guilty about betraying her. This has been haunting me for a very long time. Or after all these years, should I just let sleeping dogs lie? So Beth passed away and he wants to know whether he should tell her daughter. Whoa, oh my God, pop off female cult leader.

Yeah, you don't see it every day. It's giving priestess. I think my personal, I mean, this is not the answer to the question, is this a cult or not, but my answer to the question the OP was posting is that I think he should tell her because the mom has already passed. So like it can only taint her opinion of her so much, but I think more so like her relationships with people who left her life and stopped talking to her, that's super hurtful. And I would want to know why someone did that.

Yeah, I agree. I also think sometimes people will ask me, ask us, how do I talk to a loved one who's involved with or connected to a group that I think is a cult? And one approach is to actually avoid using the word cult because that can really shut people down or make people get defensive. And so I'm sure there's a way to talk about those sketchy power dynamics that she created without placing too many charged labels on it. I actually really like that because I think people would immediately get defensive and be like,

my mom wasn't a cult leader. What are you talking about? Yeah. But rather describing the situation of like, yeah, she had, you know, six guys doting on just her. There was kind of this power imbalance, power dynamic that, you know, your mom had with all of us. I think after she passed, people just didn't know what to do based on that trauma they endured. And so cutting you off was the next step for them.

Yeah, something my therapist always says is just express how you feel. So the guy could just express how it made him feel. And then she can like empathize and understand that that would naturally make sense for them to like remove themselves from that situation. Your therapist is the queen. She's the queen for sure. What's her name again? Oh, April.

Yeah, April. April. I remember that. She's on maternity leave though. So I'm a toxic. I'm so toxic right now. Mommy, come back. This is going to say, I need, I'm looking for a new one.

I need one in person. I love the online ones, but I need another excuse to get out of my house where I'm like, I can actually go somewhere and like maybe be a functioning human again. You should bring your chair and your blanket and you can feel cozy. Dude, this there's an imprint of this chair on my ass already. She'll know, she'll know. Oh my God. But what I was going to say about April is that advice, like express how you feel as opposed

to like passing judgment or like stating or how other, or don't say like, you made me feel. Like it's like, you just feel that way. Like no one makes you feel anything or saying like how something is as if it's a fact. That's also a really good advice for how to talk about cults on a podcast. This is just how we feel. Yeah, exactly. So we talk about like actual people and brands and stuff. Like we did an episode on the cult of Taylor Swift.

We have to be so specific with our language because like we can like get in trouble, you know. Oh yeah. I mean, defamation and lawsuits is a big thing. And I love, you mentioned Taylor Swift in the Peloton episode, I think. And you were like, she starts every interview with to me personally, I believe. I was like, that's us on the show. I think, you know, people listen to content or watch content through their own triggers. And so it's really easy to like have people be like, well, no, that's not the case for everyone.

And it's like, no, no, no, like anything I say on this show is just my opinion. Literally. It can be, you know, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed today and now I hate kids. I go to Starbucks and I now hate Starbucks today. Like it's just, I'm always changing. Like you're a human being. Like you have opinions and you're allowed to change them. Yeah.

Well, even like looking back at earlier episodes, like I think one of the cooler comments to get is like seeing how much you guys have grown since the beginning. And it's like, I can't even watch or listen to the early episodes because I'm so scared. Like, oh yeah, I can't either. I also like do stand up comedy. So like I already listened to my voice enough. And then we have to edit our episodes and I'm like, yeah, I can't hear it anymore. Yeah.

It's tough because like, I don't know, it really hurts a podcast when you control what you're saying too tightly. And like that's a habit that I get into because like I write print like prose that ends up in a book and you can't change it. And so like you have to be careful obviously in that medium. But in this medium, especially when we have opinion disclaimers and like we are just voicing our hot takes, you know, there has to be room to change your mind later. Oh, and like your opinion is going to change.

Like I might have had the same story a year ago, but like I have new information now. I've grown a little bit. My opinion might be totally different. Yeah. Exactly. And so it's like. That is growth. That's authenticity.

Like who has completely stagnated their entire life in one viewpoint. Literally. Literally, babes. So the top comment on this one is this is above Reddit's pay grade. Whoo. And I, you know, I would agree with that where it's like, someone goes down like a couple lines further and they're like, seriously though, dude, go talk to a therapist, not Meg,

which like, I don't necessarily agree with that. I think, I think it is within their right to talk to Meg. And I honestly think it might help Meg going forward to where it's kind of a red flag to me that Meg is like, well, I want what my mom and Ted had. Not knowing what her mom and Ted had was super unhealthy. So if you could maybe save Meg some of that, you know, pain and unhealthy relationship, like Meg is 40 and still very, very single. I was going to ask, what does that mean?

Very, very single. I don't know. It's like, I saw a TikTok once that was like being single is like, okay, like you're single and you like have crushes on people. Being very, very single is like, you don't even have a singular crush on anyone. Yeah, it does have some implication there, I would say. Like, do you think it's because she's 40? I feel like it sounds kind of ageist a little bit to be like, she's very, very single.

If she was just single in like 26, it would be like, she's just single. I know, it's giving like a spinster. It's like, no, a spinster was just a woman who could spin her own yarn and she didn't need a man because she could sell her wares by herself. Yeah, I could see that. But I definitely think talking to Meg is okay if approached in the right way, kind of like what we said, talking about his feelings more so. And then like recommending like, hey, I know this is tough news,

like maybe you should start talking to a therapist as well. Yeah, for sure. Our OP definitely needs to pursue some therapy. Yeah, I think everyone should be in therapy. Everyone. But then also like, they had a relationship, you know, like they were like, I guess he was kind of like a father-like figure in a way. So it's like, he doesn't have to like ignore her for the rest of life

and then just deal with his feelings. He probably is dealing with his feelings, which is what sought him out to ask these questions on Reddit. Yeah. This is more about like him trying to figure out how to like have a relationship with her and he feels bad for her too. And it's not like him talking to her, prevents her from also seeking more formal help from a time zero sum baby.

It's not zero sum. I also love this story because I think the average stereotype of a cult is a sort of like Jonestown or Heaven's Gate situation where it's this like formalized institution and it happened long ago and it was like explicitly religious or spiritual. And this is just like a literal like small micro community that existed in recent history. Like that can be a cult too. You can have a cult of one. Like we were talking about toxic relationships.

I feel like the only cults that have documentaries are like low key successful cults. Well, they're big. Not everyone becomes an influencer cult. Some people just have small personal Instagram accounts and they're still culty. No, but like honestly, like in high school, like a popular, you know, click that can be extremely cult like. Oh yeah. Yeah, I'm sure we've all experienced a good mean girl click here and there.

Someone does make a good point though. In the comments, they go, if anyone should tell her, it should be Ted, which was technically Beth, the mom's partner, like husband. Oh, wait, I thought that was the guy who wrote the post. No, he was just like another one of the, I want to say like, I almost had like groupie, but I don't know what do you call like, like cult victim members? The members. Yeah.

Yeah. So I guess I kind of agree with that comment because if like the other guy was more of a father figure, like more of a legitimate partner, that makes sense. But aren't they not all talking to each other too? They all went no contact. I think the first step maybe would be for, who's the guy who posted it again? What's his name? No name, just OP.

OP to contact Ted. Them get like coffee, chit chat, talk about what they went through maybe process a little and then we like together be like, Hey, what should we do? Should we go to? Yeah. Wait, Beth is the mom. What's the daughter's name? Meg.

Go to Meg. Every time you say, I think you should talk to Ted. My cat's name is Ted. So I'm just like, just talk to, just talk to Ted. Ted will figure, Ted will fix it. I have a little Yorkie in Minnesota named Ted too. So like it's a quality name. There's only a couple other comments, basically people just being like,

you're describing someone emotionally manipulative and abusive. You're also saying Meg was close to her. It's very unlikely that Meg never experienced that manipulation, particularly as a teenager establishing her own identity. If they were actually close, someone with best behavior pattern, wouldn't have been able to tolerate Meg expressing her independence and challenging best rules or outlook. And OP responds, it goes,

I tend to lean towards Meg not having experienced the manipulation. That was something I think Beth reserved for getting what she wanted from men. Having said that, it was not uncommon for Beth to receive very lavish or exotic gifts in addition to all the attention. What if she was just like a stripper who was like leading a bunch of guys on and this guy's like taking it like so personally. Yeah, what if this was just her hustle? Honestly.

What if she was just like, like they were all her like sugar daddies and like they all thought they had like a better relationship with her than they did. I honestly could see that where it's like, she was just a woman after the bag. Yeah, I know. Like now that I'm like putting it in perspective and I'm like, this post, oops, this OP, OG OP was written by a man. Then I'm like, don't believe Ben. I know, but then I get in my head and I'm like,

I have, we've done this thing on the podcast where like we've switched gender roles or removed genders from the stories to see how it influences our take on the stories. And then I'm like, if this was, if Beth was actually a Ben, even, even put him in a younger guy and had a bunch of a flock of older women, we'd be like, go off. Okay, so there you go. Now you're just a fuck boy. Or, but switch it.

And if it's an older man, you know, a 50-year-old with a flock of 20-year-old women. That just sounds like Hollywood. Yeah, that's true. Which is a cult. Is also, yeah, really gross. So it's hard. It's, you know, it doesn't make me feel as bad because it sounds like they were also like consenting adults.

It wasn't like Beth groomed them. So because they were older than her. Yeah, they were coworkers. They were both kind of established. Maybe there was a power dynamic there in the office where Beth was in a higher position, which could be a little bad. But it does sound like they were at least on somewhat more even playing fields than a 50-year-old man and a 18-year-old girl.

Yeah, definitely. And it also feels like I kind of need to know like more rules about it. Because like right now it just feels like kind of just like low-key like open toxic relationship vibes. Yeah. Maybe just like, what's the opposite of monogamy? Polyamory. Polyamory.

It sounds like polyamory. I know. And then there's polygamy. And there's polygamy. Okay, Mormon. You gotta, yeah. There's all these things. So yeah.

Yeah, we need more details. And like to go back to your very first question, this is why the word cult is really not enough to articulate what's going on in any group power dynamic. Yeah. Well, and it doesn't, it wasn't really mentioned like if you tried to leave or were there punishments or things like that. So was it really just like more of this intimate like they were all just fucking or like what really went down here?

To me, it sounds like a watcher back. The first one was to get the fuck out. This is sounding like a watcher back. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Watch your back girls or boys or theys.

Or theys. Theys. The spectrum needs to watch it's back. Everybody needs to watch their back. I like it. I like it. Never can be too careful. Another one of this week's partners is PDS debt.

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Okay, okay. What does this OP have to say? So this is coming from Am I the Asshole? 3,000 upvotes posted about a year ago, so a little older, but it is titled Am I the Asshole for Disabling My Boyfriend's Access to My Peloton Account When He Wasn't Talking to Me? No, immediately, that's the perfect thing to do. Cut him off.

Cut him off, because what are you paying for the whole thing? Here's the question. Who's fucking Peloton is he using if it's not yours, babe? We're going to find out. I think this relationship sounds a little bit culty. If we're like stonewalling our partners, that's no good. Yeah, but he stonewalled her first. He's still, no, no, that's what I'm saying.

Okay, I was like, who said are you on? No, no, no, I think that is one of the most toxic things that you can do. The manipulation of silence, I think, is a very, very underrated cult tactic. I would text the person into oblivion if they just ignored me. I just like, I've done that, and then after like the 20th message, you're like, really? Like, really? Yeah. Like, you don't value our relationship even at the bare minimum to just give me a response?

Or even like a, hey, I'm not ready to talk right now. I need a little bit more time to process things. I'll respect your space. But when you just go like stonewalling, one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, that's right. I can't do it. That's right. I can't do it.

It's bad. So OP writes, so my boyfriend has had a rough 2020 because he loves to travel and he got laid off from his job at a very big commercial airline that allowed him to travel the world for free. Learning his uncle was diagnosed with cancer in December just added insult to the injury. He went into a pretty deep depression and gained a considerable amount of weight and have tried to be supportive by letting him use all of my memberships for free so he can save money while he looks for a job.

I have been cooking healthy meals and I gave him access to my Peloton account so he could do his own workouts from home while I am at work. We got into a really big argument last week because I fell asleep during a movie. This is his pet peeve. And there have been times in the past where he has stormed out of my place because I have fallen asleep during movies or shows he's suggested. Poor thing is sleepy. Dude, that's like annoying that he would get mad at her for that.

I know. I know. Although my boyfriend Casey does get a little bit annoyed when I fall asleep. Well, it's like if you do it all the time and you like are planning on watching the movie, sure, but like just I would never storm out. I think I would just like kind of just like stop my feet and wake up. Yeah.

It's that easy. Yeah. When we were in therapy at one point, he said when I fall asleep, it makes him feel like I'm disengaged and I totally respected and promised I would inform him when I was either too tired to watch something or was getting sleepy while we were watching something. Last weekend, he suggested we watch a documentary and 15 minutes into the documentary, he asked me if I was falling asleep.

And I said I was getting sleepy, but I wasn't sleeping. Two minutes later, he insisted that I was sleeping. He said he could hear me breathing loudly. And when I denied it, he accused me of lying about falling asleep. Wait, this relationship is cold. I cannot. What is that is so funny. Why didn't it could were her eyes open?

Have you seen that meme where it's like the little, I don't know, whatever. It is like a frog or an alien. Its eyes and its mouths are just like barely cracked open. It's like, I'm still awake watching it. No, but insert meme here. I really relate to that. He said the problem wasn't that I was sleeping, it was that I was lying about it. Oh Christ.

I told him I was tired and did not want to deal with his tantrums and we called it a night. How old are these people? I do wonder because it's sounding early twenties. Yeah. When I texted him the following morning, I didn't hear back. So I started to get worried. I saw that he had accessed my Peloton account less than an hour before and figured maybe he was still upset and he just needs space.

But he didn't call or text me back that day for five days and continued to use my account each of those five days. Hail no. When I still haven't heard a word from him after five days, I disabled his access to my account. Yeah, as is your right. He accused me of being emotionally abusive when I did that. What?

Projection. According to him, I should have known he is not in a good place right now and might need space. He claimed to be doing some 14 day mind body meditation challenge that I interfered with. I felt bad, but I told him he could have communicated that to me. Yes. But since he chose to ghost me instead, I had no way of knowing.

Am I the asshole? No, you're not. And that's the thing is like people are going to make you feel like the asshole when you know how to set boundaries and she set a boundary. Gently. Yeah. Which is like if he decided to go into like some, whether they had argued or not the night before,

if he decided to go into like some mindful meditation thing where he didn't have to talk to anybody, the kind and relationship responsibility thing to do would be to communicate that to your partner and be like, Hey, I'm not going to talk to anyone for the next 14 days or whatever. And he didn't. And on top of it, he also just like ignored her. So like this guy, as soon as the story started with all the things that he had been through,

which I guess they might not be in college. Maybe they just graduated because he was like working, right? Yeah. It sounds like maybe a flight attendant or some sort of like something like that. Like it feels early 20s though. Like 24, 26. Just out of college and he like lost his job and he's going through a lot. But the way that the story started with all of these excuses already makes me feel like

he's just super insecure and she has to tiptoe around his insecurities. And it's like, girlie, I am so proud of you for like setting a boundary and drawing a line. And like one, you got his attention. And two, he responded in a really toxic way. So that lets you know what kind of person you're dealing with. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I love how like this is a cult of Peloton story,

but really it's a cult of toxic relationship story. And it's on the perfect subreddit because we did an episode on the cult of toxic relationships where we interviewed Dan Savage, who's a sex and relationships columnist. He's amazing. He is daddy. And we played a game with him called culty or just an asshole where we got our listeners to write in a situation that they'd been in with a partner that they knew of regarding a friend and their partner and Dan weighed in to determine whether that felt like a cult

or whether it was just someone being an asshole. And I feel like this story is just an asshole. Yeah. Yeah. I would say so. I mean, I've fallen asleep a lot. Even like you're falling asleep right now. I wish.

Sorry girls, but it's my nap time. But like me and Justin, my boyfriend, we love to like have some gummies and just like kind of play our little phone game and kind of like lot off. Maybe have some background noise, like outer banks on. Yeah. Yes, ma'am. And I'll fall asleep. But like I don't get like thrashed awake or he doesn't walk out and slam the door.

I get it like a nice little like, okay, wake up. Let's go brush your teeth. That's like that is a good relationship. Like and even we love the Minnesota Vikings. And I saw this after, you know, I didn't read this one before. So it's all new to me. And I thought about this like big football game. Minnesota Vikings like playing the Buffalo Bales or something and crazy game, crazy, crazy game.

And I was just so tired and I think we had gone to a wedding the night before. So I was a little hungover, 28, you know, not 29, drinking is hard. It is. And we were watching it with his grandpa. And I remember just like falling asleep, sitting straight up on the couch. So I missed the second, third and most of the fourth quarter. And I woke up with like three minutes left in the game and saw the best part of the game. The whole game happened within three minutes.

It always happens within the last three minutes. But like, I know there's other guys out there that are so football fanatics. NFL also called. Yep. And they would be like, you don't care about me enough to watch our team. Like, and meanwhile he's like, did you have a nice nap? You're going to see the good part. Look at this.

It's going to happen. Look at this. Look at this. So cute. I'm like, it's not that hard to be not an asshole. I know. And you know, sleep deprivation is a classic cult tactic of manipulation. So true.

I forgot sophomore. I'm failing. I would not survive right then and there because if you mess with my sleep, I am insane. Me too. Insane. Oh, I literally, I was supposed to be on a guesting on another podcast this morning, but I only found out after I committed that it was going to be at 8am PST. And I woke up at 6.30am this morning with crippling anxiety about like how I slept

so poorly the whole night and I emailed them and I was like, I'm sorry. I like can't come on the body. I had like a migraine all night and I feel bad. But I was like, I need to prioritize my sleep. I ran seven fucking miles yesterday, which is like stupid. Look at you. I'm like telling everyone because it's my proudest accomplishment. But she's training for the half marathon and my sleep.

Oh, oh, I did hear that. Your little plug on your podcast. But pretty much I was just like sleep over everything. But now I'm so well rested for this podcast. I love it. No, I'm not a morning person either. And like I talk about it because I live with my dad. And so it's very difficult to like, he's a morning person up at 5am and I'm like,

don't get me up before 10. And I wake up a lot of days to like the dishes getting like smacked in the cupboard. That was my old roommate. And we don't have soft closed doors. And so it's like, if I get started my day, like with my day on a bad foot like that, it just kind of like bleeds in and I'm really trying to have better positive coping strategies. It's hard though. It's like literally getting woken up.

It's like metaphorically getting woken up on the wrong side of the bed. Yeah. Like it will ruin your day. And that's why like, I think I was telling you this the other day. I will just, or someone else, I can't remember. I'm really like always talking. But I, if I wake up like with a headache or in a bad mood, I literally just go back to sleep until I, I think it was until I wake back up in a good mood.

That's what my naps are for. If I'm stressed, super bitchy, just can't handle things. I'm like, okay, I'm putting myself to bed. Oh, it was after the Spotify party. Yeah. I was like, I literally was like, I, I, we were supposed to record the next morning. And I was like, I cannot. Yeah.

I will like, let's just cancel because I will be in a bad mood when we record. And that's no one. Post bone, post bone. Don't worry listeners. It was just postponed. Yeah. So we do have a somewhat positive update, but I'm going to read the top comment first, which kind of picks off what you were saying, which is not the asshole.

If he needed to go silent for a period of time, it was his responsibility to communicate that. He can't just shut down and expect you to intuitively know what's going on. It's also weird to get that upset about you getting sleepy. Yeah, no, that's, yeah, that's, that's some unresolved anger. That comment covered it all like in a really short sentence and a half. Yeah. But it also like the fact that you say like sleep deprivation is also a cult control tactic. It's, that's what this is.

It's a control tactic. Yeah, because it also makes me wonder like what time of the night are they watching TV? Like if it's in the evening, it's like, you're going to fall asleep. Yeah. Like our circadian rhythms tell our bodies naturally that when it's dark, you fall asleep. And I know that we're all under the impression that you should be able to stay up past the sundown much, much later because we have ring lights and Netflix. But it's like, you're sorry.

I'm like choking because I'm passionate. What is your like watering at the mouth? I am. I'm foaming in the mouth. I really care. I mean, we don't put, we don't respect our sleep enough. No. I know.

And I like, I've been having some health issues too. And I was talking to my doctor who's like an endocrinologist, but also like more of holistic medicine now too. She's really interesting. But she was like, January and February are the hardest times for our body to lose weight. Like look at other animals. They're literally hibernating. Like we are not meant to go through these intense periods of like weight loss in January

and February. And she's like, but everyone tries with their New Year's resolutions. Oh my gosh. And that's why a lot of people fail and give up because your body's just like not meant for that. You're harvesting everything. The Cult of New Year's Resolutions. This is like another thing that we just take as absolutely natural. It's stable.

It's this unchanging force. Like of course it's the New Year. You start anew. And it's like, we made that up. Wait, but I never even thought of it from the like winter perspective of hibernation. And that is so true. I just like got hit so hard with Daylight Savings yesterday. I like, it hit me like a ton of bricks.

Like one hour fucked me up. Oh, I went to, so I'm, I'm obsessed with Iceland. Like I actually want to move there. And we, after the holidays, my boyfriend and I were like, well, let's just like get a de-stress after being with our families for three weeks and you know, traveling and just let's go to Iceland and just like go do some like fun stuff since we loved it so much when we were just there. Yeah. I did not research at all what their winters were like there.

Dark. It was dark from like 4.35pm until 11am the next day. So you only get from 11am until 4.35. Oh my gosh. And I was so messed up. I was like, I already have like seasonal depression. So I'm like, I don't know how people here do it. And everyone there is so happy.

So I'm like, I don't know what it is. I mean, like honestly, like it's like people, it's like almost in runs in their like family to like be used to it. They're trained for it. But like we all travel so much and we are constantly switching time zones. It's like not healthy and exhausting. Yeah, it's just very true. Traveling to New York tomorrow.

Yeah, me too. We're both flying tomorrow. Oh yeah. Goodbye. Chellus, I love New York. So our update, he came over tonight to talk and I broke things off. The first words out of his mouth were quote, what do you have to say for yourself? No way.

Hail no. We didn't end up talking for long. I asked for my key back and I hugged him politely at the end. This was nothing like our first breakup where I was bawling my eyes out. Oh, they had already broken up once before. Yeah, information we're just learning now. He sent his roommate over to my place immediately after we talked to return most of my belongings, which I didn't ask for.

But among them, one, a sentimental portrait of us, a blender, a scrunchie, and one beat up Nike sandal. He told his roommate to relay the message that once he found the other sandal, he would send that too. That sounds strategic. Yeah, no kidding. He's manipulative. Yeah.

I told his roommate not to even bother. He can throw it away. Thank you, savage internet strangers for the harsh wake up call today. FTS, I'm done. What is FTS stand for again? Let's all guess. We're doubling it. Let's all guess.

Fuck the shit. Fuck the shit. Nice. Nice. Really? Yep. Fuck the shit. Oh, fuck this shit.

I said fuck the shit. Nice. Good guess. There you go. Yeah, loving her boundaries. Her whole life is now in front of her. It's important to have those experiences when you're young, I feel, and learn how to resolve them. I feel like I didn't have them.

I feel like I just like, well, I've had some toxic relationships, I feel like, but I've always had such intense boundaries. They've almost been too intense that I haven't let myself get into anything. Where did you learn that? I know. I think I went in the opposite direction of my parents who have no boundaries. And it was like a coping strategy because they have no boundaries. And I was like, I will not have my parents' relationship.

And so I went like hard in the other direction. And I was like, oh, I guess I just won't have any relationships. Except for the relationship of sounds. Except for our relationship. We always say we're like married because we have an LLC together. You basically are. But then you also say that your longest relationship is with your mechanic. Oh, yeah.

My LA mechanic who like sold me my car off Facebook market. Okay. It was like a totaled car, but he fixed it. Oh, nice. I bought it for like- A sandwich title. That's okay. Exactly.

I bought it for five grand and it lasted me four beautiful years. That was actually a pretty cheap car. And I'm selling it for four grand. So like- Oh, you bought the book. Because of inflation. You drove it for free. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, you literally drove that thing for free. That's a good buy. Even I've met your mechanic. Yeah. Yeah. Well, speaking of partners and having- He wished you- Sorry.

He wished me a happy Valentine's Day. That's adorable. I got a text message from my dentist on my birthday a couple weeks ago and I was like, you remember me. Oh my God, good for you for taking care of your teeth. Oh, yeah. No, no. He loves me because I've had so many fucking cavities.

Oh, you're like paying for his vacation home. Basically with I have like a crown and he fixed another crown, but he's conservative. He just like, I love him. He just fixed everyone else's fuck ups, but I have really weak teeth. Yeah. Same. They're the British and me. 13% rotten.

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That's T-H-R-I-V-E market.com slash THT ThriveMarket.com slash THT. So what's the worst thing you've ever done to an ex after a breakup? Have you done anything revengeful? Are you kidding me? I love revenge. Oh my gosh. Have never. I think like the worst thing I've done is just like block them on Instagram,

which is not bad at all. Okay. No, I would have downed the couch. No, no, no. Moving down the couch. Oh my gosh. I talked shit about them though. Yeah, no.

That's fine. Lisa is really good at talking shit in ways that will haunt you. That's a compliment. Thank you. And now that I have a podcast, I do it in public. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, people wear. People need to be scared.

But like also date me. So don't be too scared. Don't be too scared. I know it's like dating Taylor Swift. It's like, you will get a song. Yeah, but they'll be proud about it. Oh, I love that interview. Yeah.

Yeah, that one. Oh God. Do I even want to like out myself? It's just that I, so I was in a very, very cold like relationship in my late teens and early twenties with someone who was much, much older than me. He was an addict with no program, like extremely controlling and manipulative. And when I finally shot out of that relationship, like a freaking cannonball.

Oh, I know what you did. Into my freedom. Oh, I know what you did. Well, okay. So he had, this is super unflattering. I can say it if you want me to just say it really quickly. I mean, I was 25. It's not that long.

I, well, I sort of, I like, he had. Fucked his best friend. Yeah. He had a friend that I thought, that I had always thought was cute in a very casual way. And he implanted, he knew that and he, I guess he could just tell. I never said anything to the effect, but he could tell. And I think he felt threatened by that or possessive or whatever. And so he always implanted the idea in my mind that, that guy hated me.

And so that made me feel very insecure. And then when I got out of that relationship and I started rebuilding my self-esteem, I was like, Oh, I can fuck redacted if I want. Like, I don't think he hates me. Like he keeps watching my Instagram stories. So watch as I'm to this day. So I, I slid into, into the DM. Little homie hop in the, a lot of girlies do it.

I feel like it's not that bad of a thing to do. It's fine. Yeah. Dixie, Charlie, they're out there. Honestly, I'm sure like some online stuff. There was like a high school one where I was kind of mean to this girl because my ex was like, I still like, I love you. Let's get back together.

But then was talking to this other girl. So I am not proud of this. It's still like, I think about it and it haunts me where I'm like, Oh, I was a mean girl to her. But we became friends afterwards. Like I went out of my way and apologized and we, we realized he was the problem. Yeah. And so we became friends afterwards. But I had another boyfriend that I was driving like every weekend,

four hours from my college to see him and like bought him a cell phone, gave him like a flat screen TV for his dorm. My family helped fix his car. He put diesel in his gas engine and my family like helped tow him and went above and beyond. Like they treated him like if he was, oh yeah, dumb. And so I was going up there one weekend and he called me like right before I was going to be there. And he's like, he's like, well, I think we need to break up.

Like I just, I know I don't deserve you. Blah, blah, blah. He was cheating on me with another girl that went to his school. I was just going to say, as soon as someone says I don't deserve you, it's like own up to your bullshit and own up to your responsibilities. I'm sorry. I'm like hitting this because I'm getting so, because every relationship that I've ever ended,

I've had to end even though I know they wanted to end it. It's always been me being like, what is happening until and then I press until like, they're like, oh yeah, or I just did this or like, I was talking to my ex or like, I'm not, you know, it's like, fucking just speak your truth, dude. Like you're going to hurt me either way. Yeah. So I went immediately after that call, like got my friend in the car and like went and picked up the TV and then threw the phone I bought at a brick wall.

Good. Yeah. I'm proud of you. Proud of you. Moment of chaos from Margie. Choose violence. This is coming from the r slash black hole revenge, which is a subreddit for revenge taken to the utmost extreme.

Okay. Black hole. Yeah. Three years ago. Oh, it's giving murder. Yeah. Honestly, it's titled, I signed my ex-boyfriend up for the church of Scientology. That's a good idea.

I knew a little devious down there. What's that funny? I love that idea. They will send you mail forever. They will follow you like a fucking ghost. I think it's funny how funny you think it is. Well, you know, I just, I love revenge and I love word jokes. That's it.

It's just scratching a spot in your brain. So OP goes, I saw that this was a funny trend to sign people up for random email lists and span them, but I decided to take it a step further because he really burned me in the past. I went to our local church of Scientology's website and saw where you could input your personal information to receive messages from the church. Oh my gosh. Since I had most of this information from our time being together, I filled it out under his name. I did this with a few more churches of Scientology as well.

I thought that this would only be a minor inconvenience with a few puzzling and harmless emails, but it turned out to be much worse. Recently, I saw that he posted on his Instagram that he was deleting all of his social media due to privacy reasons. At first, I didn't think much of it, but after a while, I started to wonder if there was any connection to what I had put in the church of Scientology's website. So out of curiosity, I later decided to bite the bullet and DM him on Instagram in the hopes that he hadn't deactivated his account.

A few minutes later, he responded, saying he needed a break from social media. Ultimately, he told me not to worry about it and that he was going to delete his Instagram, 10k followers, later that night. I figured I was off the hook. A few weeks later, I was with a mutual friend of ours and she updated me on his situation. Apparently, him and his family had been contacted by the church of Scientology. Supposedly, they actually expressed interest. Oh, that's their fault.

The mutual friend said that she hadn't seen him in a while and none of his friends had heard from him in over a month. She said that it seemed like he was cutting off everybody. I just received word that he's dropping out of school after the semester ends and his family is moving to live with other church members. Dude, these stories are so crazy. It makes me feel like people are making them up, but why would they make them up? Well, Scientology is really, this is what they do.

This is all that they do. They are very, very good at recruiting people. They just are. Wow. I just got full body chills. I know I technically signed him up for this, but I had no idea it would get this bad. He honestly deserved it after everything he did. Like still no remorse.

Doubling down. I mean, they were the ones who like, she just signed him up. She didn't like drag him there. She opened the door to Hades and he just fell right down. I can't exactly state what he did in caution. This post would get removed. Just know it was pretty fucked up and me and a friend of mine had to see a therapist. Dude, I guarantee you that the Church of Scientology like saw his social media presence.

It sounded like it was somewhat substantial and they were like, oh, he seems valuable. And depending on his background and like the assets that his family had, they were probably, they probably love bum the shit out of him. I mean, have you, have you visited? Well, I was just going to say back to really quickly before we continue with the Church of Scientology to his like relationship and the fucked up shit that he did. Both of the girl and her friend had to go to therapy therapy. It sounds like assault.

I literally was just going to say the R word like, yeah. It sounds like some sort of sexual assault. Yeah. Well, and, and now that he's in the church, he can't get to anybody. So it's kind of a type of prison if you think about it. Yeah. Well, but at the same time, it's also a type of blanket freedom because the church and not just Scientology, but like a lot of sort of fundamentalist

religions and scare quotes will just like blanket forgive you. They'll, they'll, they'll justify what you did. And they'll, they'll allow you to, to live with yourself. Especially I feel like more so for men in like the religious cults than women. Like I think there's, absolutely. But it's so interesting because religion and like the religious cults, like despite women not having as much power wouldn't exist if it weren't for the women pumping out the kids.

Yeah. Like it is literally women actually hold so much more power in those cults than they believe. That's why to believe. That's why cults like, like the Mormon church literally or like fundamentalist Mormons separate their children from their mom. Like almost like just a couple years after they're born, like they would take them away from their parents because they don't want them to have like that relationship with their mom.

Where the fuck did they go? Well, fundamentalist Mormons, they went to like Texas. Utah? Yeah. Well, they're based in Utah, but there was like one story of a particular guy who like started like this like separate. Off-shoot. Off-shoot.

It always goes like that where they're like, I am the one prophet. And they just want to fuck children. And it's like so disgusting. I started watching one on Netflix and I need to continue, but. Actually though, that is a trope in a lot of different cults where they want to separate children from their parents. Like this is really, I buried the lead, but my dad grew up in a cult. That's like, sorry.

I like forgot to mention. Wow. Sorry. Really buried lead. But my dad spent his teenage years in a cult called Synanon, which was this like 70s era promised socialist utopian compound that started as an alternative drug rehabilitation center and then grew conformist and violent and all these terrible things. And actually the whole troubled teen industry descends from this cult.

Anyway. Oh my gosh. Wow. Yeah. That's a rabbit rabbit hole to go down. But anyway, one of their tenants was like, and this is based on recovery stuff, your family enables you. So even if you don't have a drug problem, if you're a child, you should be taken away

from your parents because they said like it's for your own good and for your own individualism. That reminds me of the new like anti-trans law that's going on in Florida. They just like put a bill up for like trans children whose parents support them. They might be separated from their parents and put in foster care. That's that is cult. That is cult. Yes. Yes.

There are very, very, very few cases where separating kids from their family of origin and putting them in foster care is better. Yeah. Like what the fuck is wrong with people? Yeah. I saw a statistic that was like 50% of homeless people like grew up in foster care. Yeah.

Well, look at how many people that are in the foster system that get abused. Yeah. It's like, what the fuck is wrong? It's very, very broken. And the system is like so racist, like taking children of color away from their family, putting them with white family. It's like, it's yeah, the whole thing is a cult. It's wild.

With Scientology, I don't really know too much about it, which is odd because there's like big Scientology castles like all over Los Angeles here. And we have, you know, Mr. Tom Cruise, who is like the face of Scientology. Of course. And I don't really know a lot about it, except for the fact it was started by one guy who was actually like a science fiction writer. Exactly. Exactly.

Elrond Hubbard. He Ron Booby. I don't know his name, but it's like sounds like the writer of Game of Thrones. Yes. Or J.R.R. Tolkien. Well, but that's the funny thing is that he could have just been like a prolific space fantasy writer, but then he has that quote that some people might have seen, or it's like, if you want to make the big bucks, start a religion.

So he just basically took his like fantasy material and was like, let's institutionalize this and make people believe it for real. Because then you're in a separate tax bracket. Maybe. You guys, all of these crazy mega churches, we need to start taxing the fuck out of that. Yes. I think like you should be able to tax religion. Like if, especially if the religion is going to back political candidates and if the religion

is investing in the stock market versus giving back to their constituents or the welfare of people. No, that's not important. If you're acting like a business, you should get taxed like a business. Yeah. Absolutely. Looks like a business, smells like a business, sounds like a business. That'll be our offshoot cult. We'll just like sounds like a business and we just like attack every church on the planet.

Well, I mean, it's interesting with all these churches and like even celebrities where like Kris Jenner has started her own church and the thing with nonprofits too is that like they'll donate to their own church and then they can write that off for their own taxes. Well, that's, I forget who it was recently, but Elon donated like and it went to his own charity, which then it's essentially just still his money, but he's not paying taxes on it. And there's so many like, it's why I've said this before, but it's like, it's why the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. It's like all of these little knowledge or hacks, loopholes.

And then even the IRS audits the poor people because they know the poor people are the easiest ones to take on. Which is so dumb because it's like if they audited rich people, they would just like make all their money in one sitting. I know, I know. Audit Elon Musk and like you will cover your expenses for the next 25 years. Just tax the churches. Yeah.

Dude, seriously. I mean, obviously not the little ones that are like little mom and pop churches, like that are actually not, I mean. I think institutional churches, like once a church has like a blue check mark on Instagram, it's like, it's tax that shit. If the pastor has a $5 million house with a Ferrari, Bugatti's in the driveway, private jet, like. And the audacity that they have like driving those cars around with like no remorse. It's like, where the fuck did that money come from?

Obviously from like your members. But this is the thing is like, this is the cult of capitalism. It's the prosperity gospel, right? It's the idea that like monetary blessings are heavenly blessings. It's like parishioners have been conditioned to view the pastor driving around that car as like, well, God has blessed you with that car. That's like, that's a blessing from Jesus. Yeah.

Like instead of them like looking like they're just being like lavish, they look like they got rewarded because they were so committed to the church. Yeah. But it's like, I can be the poor, right? But this is like one of one of the interpretations of what a cult is, is like you, you claim to have a direct line to what Jesus would have wanted. That's the profit status that you're claiming, you know? It's like some people say like, a cult is a group or the leader thinks he can talk to God,

a religion is a group or that leader is dead. It's like, you know, like. Oh yeah. Because like the, because a cult, the leader can change their mind like every day because they can be like, that's not what God wants. Like he just told me yesterday where it's like, if the prophet is dead, then everything is just up to interpretation. Yeah, totally.

But things being up to interpretation are also just kind of like bullshit. Like the constitution. Yeah, it is America's Bible famously. It basically is. Yeah. Top comment on this one though says, ultimately though, it was his and his family's choice to join the cult and move in with them. I've had Jehovah Witnesses come knocking at my door trying to convert me

and I've been contacted by Jewish groups via email, but you don't see me running to join any of them. I agree. Yeah. That was voluntary. This is, this is the trouble. Like she obviously like it's human that she's going to feel some sort of guilt for signing him up because it was the catalyst in a way.

Yeah. But at the end of the day, like no one dragged him kicking and screaming out of his house. No. And this is, it's, it's tricky to hold cults accountable because a lot of people do join voluntarily, but it's like, when does that consent break down? Like when are you, when are you entering a situation that you actually didn't sign up for? It's really hard to hold cults accountable. I would also say it's even less the girl who signed him up's fault because he had a,

sounds like he, oops, sorry. It sounds like he had a public social media presence too. So like his information was also probably like easy to access. Yeah. It's interesting. You wonder like what their motive is like for really going after him, but you think like with someone with a social media presence would almost be less susceptible because it's like you have something else going on.

Yeah. And you kind of are a leader of sorts. Yeah. Like you almost feel because of your following, you have more status than maybe someone who doesn't. But then think about all the cults, including and especially Scientology, that are so good at recruiting celebrities. Like they for sure have other things going on.

I was just going to say. What is it about Scientology do you think? I think they just, I think Scientology is really good at targeting people's egos. And so if that guy had like a small following, they probably were like, we need you. And then he was like, oh my God, you need me? Yeah. That's the love bombing aspect, right? And also like with A-list celebrities in particular, like that's such an isolating

lifestyle. Like you, you don't feel like you can trust anyone and here's a group offering you like protection and belonging with like-minded individuals. You know, that probably feels really alluring. Yeah. So funny. People who like can't trust anyone always trust the wrong people. It's so true.

But like think about the mega church stuff. Except for the Kardashians. Those girls keep it tight. Fair. Cult leaders. But yeah. It's because they have so many family members, they're like, they can just trust their family because they have a thousand of them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like I truly think that, and we have an episode on the cult of celebrity mega churches where we talked about this a little bit, but I think like those mega churches are appealing to celebrities as huge as Justin Bieber. Because like living, living that existence, that far up the like societal food chain leaves you like really hungering for something. Like where do you go from there? And these churches are like, here is the next level of meaning.

Yeah. Well, and he was really, I think from what I know about his experience, he was younger and struggling. Justin Bieber. Yeah. And it's not just him. I mean, Hailey Baldwin, her family was a part of it. Even you have Selena Gomez where Selena was tied to Hillsong.

She's still tied to it. Her best friend is like best Raquel. Yeah. She's after I watched her documentary, I saw Raquel is like best friends with the wife of the Hillsong guy. Well, and it makes sense where people are, you know, with all this drama, they're like, why is Raquel still hanging out with Hailey? Like Raquel and Selena are supposed to be best friends,

but she's hanging out with Hailey and all of their other friends who are just normal people. And it's like, there's another web there that you're not seen. And that Hillsong group could probably be the core reason to tie all of them together. I think that we were talking about this the other day, but I think Selena Gomez, I love her. I just don't think as much as she thinks she surrounds herself

with the right people, I don't think she does. Like watching her documentary, we were like, it's giving Demi Lovato. It was hard to watch. It was so hard to watch because even in the documentary, they try to portray this idea that she's like gotten over it and that she's like coming out on the other side. And it's like, dude, it sounds like you don't like being famous. It sounds like it's very hard and traumatizing for you.

And it sounds like you need to take a step back. And your best friend Raquel is telling you that it's your life's meaning. That it's God's will for you. Like think that's the prosperity gospel too. Like they kept talking about how like, what is all of this for? What is all this suffering for? If not because it's God's purpose for you to lead this life. That's what Raquel tells her while Raquel and everyone around her leeches off like her.

It's so interesting. And then also builds into the fact where if there's a bunch of other celebrities, a part of one church, they're also on the same level of like, we get stalked by paparazzi. We don't know who is friends with us because they actually want to be friends with us versus use us. So if they can find one common outlet together that feels super safe. And these churches, I mean,

they're basically marketing companies at this point. They are so good at branding themselves. Like everything around the filters. But like having blue bottle coffee in the lobby and then putting on essentially like a Coldplay concert in the church service. Like they just do it up. You know what I mean? Yeah.

I mean, I just was used to like old school like church tactics, which were like, we have donuts. Yeah. Like when I went to church, it was because I just wanted like one chocolate donut with rainbow sprinkles. Today's episode is sponsored by PayPal Honey, the easy way to save when shopping on your iPhone or computer. I mean, who doesn't like saving money,

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Just activate it on Safari on your phone and save on the go. If you don't already have Honey, you could be straight up missing out. And by getting it, you'll be doing yourself a solid and supporting this show. Get PayPal Honey for free at joinhoney.com slash tht. That's joinhoney.com slash tht. Okay, weddings and the cults of weddings. We kind of touched on it a little bit. This one is like not as culty as I think weddings could get,

but it just like really piqued my interest. And I haven't actually done it on this podcast, which kind of gets hard with wedding stories. I'm always like, did we do this one? Did we not do this one? Yeah. But I think this one's safe. So this is from a year ago.

It is titled Am I the Asshole for covertly losing weight as a bridesmaid and refusing to be set up with her friend after overhearing the bride call me fat. Whoa. My 30 female friend. Wait, what does covertly losing weight mean? Secretly. Like on the deal?

Yeah, on the deal. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. You're good. My 30 female friend Kate's 30 female wedding was last weekend. We went to grad school together, but haven't seen each other in person in about two years.

Though we faced time and kept up enough since then enough to where she invited me to be in her wedding. However, a large part of this is that her fiance, Kyle 30 male has eight groomsmen and she needed enough people. Sounds like a cult already. About six months before the wedding, the bridesmaids were all talking in a group chat on discord. And I overheard Kate who must have thought she was on mute

or that her voice wouldn't carry rather snidely turned to Kyle and say that I would quote round out the group because I would be a good quote counterweight to her fiance's friend Tim. The idea being that Tim and I were both obese. Oh my God. When she moved back towards the mic and said something about not being on mute,

I acted like I couldn't hear anything and said something like, yeah, you were really far away. You sounded like you were underwater. I couldn't hear you. I had been planning on losing weight anyways, but I lost 35 pounds of fat in six months and put on four pounds of muscle, largely out of spite.

Yes, we love it. That is the definition of revenge body. Truly. I've always hated pictures of myself and don't maintain social media. So it wasn't outside the norm for no one to see me. As soon as I knew what my plan was, I ordered a size down in my bridesmaids dress

and then had it tailored in a little more. I wore the tightest Lululemon's I could find when I met everyone at the hotel the day before and seeing the visceral shock on Kate's face was priceless. That's amazing. At the wedding, I still walked in with Tim, but he was a bit stiff and awkward around me, which I attributed to nerves or just not caring for strangers.

Later, after enough alcohol had been passed around, the truth finally came out that Kate wanted to set me up with Tim, which I refused. And before she was 86, Kate said, quote, you're not supposed to be skinnier than me. You're upstaging me at my own wedding. There it is.

There it is. We didn't have a knockdown drag out fight and it wasn't particularly dramatic, but apparently the other bridesmaids and groomsmen got the impression that I had somehow been a bitch to Tim and that it was shitty of me to refuse a date with him. Kate and I haven't spoken since the reception, during which I said congratulations

and essentially ghosted after things went south. And now I'm sitting here wondering if I'm the asshole. That is a good question, honestly, for this situation. You're definitely not the asshole for losing weight. That's fucking amazing for not telling anyone. You don't need to tell anyone. That's like your life and body. Your body, your choice, girly, but I will say,

and okay, before I say this, also saying no to the date, you can say no to any date you want. That is all you, girl. Were you rude to him is my question. Because you should treat everyone kindly. So it's like, I wonder if people's perception of her was skewed from the bride being a bridezilla? Yeah, I think so.

For sure. Yeah. And not her being an asshole. I really do hate this about the cult of weddings that it brings out the worst in the women involved. You know, it's like there's no groomzilla terminology. But I do want to point out, though, that the bridesmaid did go in with this kind of energy of trying to win, too.

You know what I mean? If someone caught me fat when they pretended to mute their mic, I would for sure try to lose weight. Oh, that's true, actually. Fuck that, bitch. Well, I 100% would do that. I just think it's funny that I'm even saying this, because I literally didn't go to my cousin's wedding.

Because she didn't invite me to... Or she didn't invite my sister to the brides. What is it called? The best bride party. She invited all of our female cousins, including myself, and she didn't invite my sister. Is your sister hotter than her? No, they're the same age, and they both live in Brooklyn,

and they've always had just this beef. But then now the beef has passed on to me, because I stood up for her. This is what I'm just saying. Like the cult dynamics that are brought out by the wedding milieu, like by all the pressure for it to be the best day of your life, and it has to look perfect, and you have to spend all this money.

I think it really brings out the asshole in so many. Because also, it is already a favor that she was going to be a bridesmaid. Like if she was already like a last kind of... Whether you're a first-minute invite or a last-minute invite, it's a lot of money. It's a lot of work to be a bridesmaid. And then to hear a friend say that about you behind your back

is so fucked up. It's really, really disheartening. And seeing her as like a piece in a puzzle? Well, and it's like, you hear that a lot, where it's like, well, my boyfriend or my fiance has eight friends, so I need eight bridesmaids, but I'm not that close with eight girls, so they'll ask a coworker.

I would tell my partner to lower it. I would just be like, I have this amount, and if you want it to be equal, you have to lower it. And if not, then it can be uneven. Yeah, there's a lot of those optics that go with the weddings too. And it's like the bachelorette party now. We need to go on a trip somewhere and take pictures, and everyone have coordinated swimsuits,

and each girl gets a tote bag with their initials embroidered on it. There's so much optics. I honestly think it's getting more and more extravagant, and it now extends to gender reveal parties, which are the cultiest thing in the world. Oh, the worst. I mean, for every possible reason. That reminds me of why don't people just have low-key baby showers again?

Dinner parties, I was going to say. Yeah, I just feel something authentic. It's all these random excuses to have a party. It's like, have a pregame. Have a dinner party on a random Friday night. You don't need an excuse to celebrate love, because the industry is so cult-like. It has conditioned us all.

It's this snowballed beast where it's like, we can't go back. It just keeps growing and growing and growing and growing. That's the way we see everything as a cult. We're like, all right, I got it. Yeah, but honestly, who's going to be the martyr to be like, it's not going to be me. I mean, honestly, I'm going to be the martyr. I don't want out.

I don't want to participate. Don't smile at me like that. I know she doesn't want out. No, I do. I want to do my own fucking thing, and I'm not wearing white. I'm going to wear pink. Yeah, but it's like you want out still within the system. Well, I love a party, and I love a celebration,

and I love the excuse to bring everyone that you know together. But I love the dinner party idea. It's going to happen in my parents' backyard. I'm not doing this whole thing. I'm doing mine at my farm. My farm in Minnesota, very low-key, will probably pop up a tent. The way the cookie's going to crumble. It is interesting.

And I think there's so much that goes into this now, and I think the capitalism is a big part. And there's this big trend on TikTok right now, where this one video went viral where they were like, we didn't tell our caterer and our florist we were having a wedding. We said special event, because we wanted to get a cheaper cost, because there's such an upcharge with weddings. That's right.

And then you have all these small businesses that have come out and said, no, we don't do that. It's just that weddings typically require more. And so now it's this conversation of like, but why do they require more? I mean, you can literally talk about it behind the scenes, because Issa's parents run a flower business. Yeah, I mean, my parents run a wholesale flower business, plug Denise's wholesale fresh flowers.

But they, but it's like very, it's very low-key. But I just, I don't know if I learned this from them, but I think the reason a small business would think it would require more is because of the culture around weddings. People think that there are bridezillas, and people think that everything needs to match. But if the person producing the wedding, a.k.a. if that's the bride or the bridesmaid or the best woman, whatever,

I like literally don't know. Made of honor. Made of honor. If that person's chill. If the maid of honor just like knows what they're doing and they're chill, they can just hire separate people. They all do it. And then day of everyone shows up, everyone does their job, it's fine.

Yeah. So what a lot of these vendors were saying too, is if like you contract me and you say it's a special event, but I show up and it's a wedding, you're getting an additional bill. But why? And that's where like, this whole conversation is like starting to go down on TikTok where people are like, here's what you should actually do.

If you don't want to screw people, go to the your vendor and say, hey, I'm having a special event. I want 12 big arrangements and three handheld bouquets. And if they're like, oh, is this a wedding? No, it's a special event. Get the quote. Say, okay, can I get this same quote for a wedding?

These are the pieces I want. If the two vary, then you can have the conversation with the vendor and say, hey, I'm getting two different prices for the same product. Can you explain why there's an upcharge here? And so people are now starting to get like a little sneakier to have these conversations. But that's so, I honestly do think that's fucked up. My parents like run with wholesale flowers, and that's why people go to them because they don't upcharge.

It's just that they charge equally. Yeah. Here's the price for like a huge bouquet and then you can arrange it yourself. And sometimes they'll do arrangements too. But it's like, it is genuinely fucked up to charge more for weddings because of the capitalism around it. And then why should we, as the buyer, have to put in the work and the effort to call two separate times

to ask for two different quotes and then have the whole discussion? That's a job. Like getting quotes and having a discussion and negotiating a bill, that's literally a job. Yeah, it absolutely is. It's a lot more work for the buyer that shouldn't have to be done, where it's like, can't we just have this like transparent like relationship transaction?

But it's so interesting with like all of the anti-LGBTQ plus language. And like even back when like gay marriage wasn't legal, it's like from like a financial standpoint, don't you want the gays to get married? Like how big of an industry is the wedding industry? Like if you're fiscally conservative, you should want everybody to get fucking married. Yeah, so true.

Well, there's a lot of missing logic and a lot of what the anti-LGBTQ plus contingency of America thinks. Yeah, we'll leave it at that, huh? Okay, so moving along, one of the other podcasts you guys have out that I listened to that was so interesting is your mom influencer one, the mom fluencer. And we see it nonstop. And I think one of the most recent ones is like Maya Knight who had the two little babies that everyone got so attached to, like Scotch and Vodka.

Yeah, yeah, I'll take talk, right? Yeah, I forget their real names. And she decided like recently she's not going to show their faces anymore. And people have lost their minds. Didn't she listen to our podcast? Oh, well, I don't know. But we didn't shout her out by name. We had one tiny little line about her.

But yeah, the followers were like, why did you take our babies away from us? Like the parasocial nature of all of this is disquieting. Like people think that she stopped posting the baby's videos over our episode. No, no, it was before. I think, yeah, no, it was before. But it's just wild. And I love parasocial relationships.

Like we're here because of it. And you're there. Like, hello friends. So I mean, it works, but I think it's like, you shouldn't feel entitled to someone's children. I'm consenting to be here with you guys. Exactly. That's what we talked about in the episode like a lot

is that like the child is not consenting to be on camera. And it's there's a difference between like being on camera and like putting the pictures up and the videos in your house and watching them as family videos. But as soon as that child becomes an influencer or star or famous, like that is a traumatizing life event that they did not consent to and that they can't take back and literally cannot take that back. And the like regulations that apply to child actors,

like who are on the books in Hollywood, don't apply to child influencers. No. And even the child actors get screwed with their fund that their parents are supposed to put a certain percentage into. How many child actors like from the height of Disney and Nickelodeon have come out now that they were left with nothing. And also it's just this thing where like, even though the kid at first thinks that they're like having fun on set,

when you repeat something enough, it does turn into a job. We probably know that as like creatives where like, I love recording the podcast, but like now it is my job and we have to schedule it. So it kind of feels a little bit more like a job. It doesn't matter to me because I still love it. But when a kid has to go to set every day, it turns into a job. And a kid's job is school.

So the fact that they also have to go to school and go to set, that's like a double job. And like your childhood should, I just stuttered, but your childhood should literally just be too dilly-dally. Yeah. I truly think that the children of mom influencers are in almost a more fucked up situation than like Hollywood child stars for several reasons.

But like- Because their mom is supposed to be their backbone. I know, like their cult leader is their mom. That's so fucked up. Well, like that'll really, that'll fuck with you. We have a firsthand account. Oh, let's listen to it. Okay. So this one is three years old and it went a little viral,

especially recently with the conversation around mom influencers, but it is titled, Am I the asshole? My mom is an influencer. I am sick of being a part of it. I had a no photos hoodie printed for me and my little sister. Holy shit. I am a teenager and my mom is kind of famous on Instagram and blogging. She had a mommy blog all when I was growing up.

And of course me and my sisters were always involved. It sucks because there's so much out there about us and it's what's going to come up when I'm looking for a job, when I'm dating, when anyone looks up my name. I found a website that will print custom jackets, print all over the front and back and arms, and I ordered some hoodies that say a bunch of phrases all over them. No photos, no videos.

I do not consent to being photographed. No means no. Respect my privacy. No cameras. No profiting off my image. Sounds like Kim and Kanye's daughter northwest. I know, I'm really, I'm desperate to know who this is. It sounds silly, but it looks pretty sick actually.

I got one for me and one for my nine-year-old sister, who started to not always want photos. And I guess the idea is that my mom can't take good-looking pictures, even candid ones, with us in the hoodies, without them having a pretty strong message that we don't want to be in the photos. That's amazing. Did it say how old this person is?

Just I'm a teenager. Wow, I mean Reddit's fucking cool. And we use it in our research too, but you don't often get to hear from kids like that. That is so interesting. Is there more? My mom was mad when they showed up and really mad when I'm wearing mine.

Like she says she just wants pictures to remember my young years by. She won't post ones without asking. But I know that's a whole mess anyways. She always says that and then negotiates me into letting her post. Like either by saying that's how she makes income, so if I want money for something to stop arguing about pictures or posting without asking and then saying

I thought it would be okay because your face wasn't visible, you're just in the background, etc. And I'm always like, no you didn't think. If you thought at all, you'd remember what I had said I want. No new pictures of me or mentions of me online. Remove all pictures that include me

that you've ever posted and delete any writing that mentions me. I'm just so fed up and upset that my mom is mad at me for wearing my new hoodie every day. She's mad I won't take it off for any event and thinks it's inappropriate to wear certain things. I know it's really weird looking, but it feels like my only option. Edit to add a couple more things.

She also says all the mentions of consent and no means no. And this is my own body. Sorry forgot to mention that one earlier. Imply something more inappropriate and that it is really inappropriate to wear those words out in public. We've also thought about me wearing it to family events and school events with a generally dressier dress code

because it looks like a quote gangster hoodie. I don't know what to say to that, but I don't agree. Am I the asshole for always wearing my no photos hoodie? No, wear that hoodie. And also the fact that the mom is, even if the hoodie the no means no was implying something else like about a salt or something like that. That is still okay to wear.

Yeah, that is still okay to wear and for her mom to assume or imply otherwise is also fucked up. It's wild too because moms and kids fighting about what they're going to wear is a tale as old as time. But this is so much more loaded and it is the ultimate objectification. The child is rendered a product. The children are rendered a commodity. And that's just such a disturbing product of the social media era,

I think. And what has made it so culty is that it turns human beings into products. And it made me so sad to hear that the mom would be like, okay, I won't post this picture. And then later negotiates with their own daughter and then uses things like saying we're paying for the house like this. It's like, you're not supposed to be paying with the house. You're the adult, that's your responsibility. You chose to have a child this year of our lord and savior plan B.

And you have to pay for the child until it turns 18 years old. That's not the child's responsibility to help you with. I just, I love every time when you use it to pronounce. I talk about kids as it was gender. Yeah, I mean, it's hard. I say babies, I'm like it because there's just like a little blobs. Yeah, they're a person, but like, I don't know. My pronouns are it, it's, um, yeah.

No, the mom flu in their space is it's funny. I think like we, I feel, I feel passionate about that cult because I think it is so uncanny and it is so fascinating and it's going nowhere. But I didn't realize how interesting it was to everyone else. That's like one of our top performing episodes already. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's really crazy. And you think about how many families are out there.

I think we, um, I had an episode for a Spotify show we did. It was called down the rabbit hole and we explored like child's privacy and like what that really looks like and all of these Instagram kids that post pictures in bikinis and just weird shit. And the ace family is probably one of the worst in terms of what they'll do with their child. And they took their child who I think was like three or four at the time to a sex shop and picked out a dick shaped lollipop and recorded content for YouTube with this child sucking on the dick lollipop.

Sounds like sexual abuse. That's sexual abuse like period. In what fucking world do you think this is okay? How did YouTube monetize that? Because they demonetize me for saying asshole too early in a video. Oh, wow. So you're going to monetize that type of content? That's disgusting.

It's just, it's wild. So that's the cult of capitalism right there where like rules don't apply when a corporation is like trying to make money. It's just insane. But only like if it's worth of the money. Like, you know what I mean? Like that video probably went so mega viral that they were like, we can't. Probably.

I want to do a whole separate episode on like the family vlogger cults because I feel like there's the mom fluencer who's kind of maybe, I don't know, like a tradwife with a braid and like makes like hand woven tea towels or whatever. But the YouTube like family vlogger space where you're like doing pranks and like the whole family is like an entertainment family. But they're like, you wake up as a child in a house that like looks like this podcast studio and it's not your choice. I mean, that's just weird.

I've rubbernecked at that cult. I've watched those family vlogs. I'm ashamed to say because it's fascinating. It is. It's honestly, it's really scary. And like this is the sucker. I think they broke the balls off of it, but it's still very clear what it is and look at that. And like luckily these people are starting to blur the kid's face when they repost stuff,

but it's like they didn't for their channel. It's just the things people will do. That is a get the fuck out. Well, also something we talked about in our episode of mom fluencers is that like a lot of mommy blogger followers are like male audiences. And if like, if a children's account has a high amount of male followers, it's usually like pedophiles. Yeah.

I mean, haven't you seen the one TikTok mom like that's been blasted lately for like giving her little baby like female razors to play with and tampons and eating a banana. And then, oh, now the baby's eating a hot dog. What are they thinking? And you look at the shares and the saves and it's like, you know what you're creating content for. And there's this other woman who I just discovered recently, thanks to like a mom that like stitches terrible content like this.

And it's this woman who's breastfeeding and there's nothing wrong with openly breastfeeding in public or anything like that, like do you, but she's breastfeeding for TikTok. And like she'll have her boobs out. And the kid who's like an older kid now, I think like close to five, will just like run up, pull her shirt down and start breastfeeding. And like she reports this content. And then the link on her page goes to an only fans. Oh my God. Oh my God.

Yeah. No, that is a completely different thing than like nourishing your child in the wild. Also, I'm just like picturing like a fucking toddler. Yeah, like running after her and pulling her shirt up. That is so meh. That's so weird. I don't know how else to say it other than like weird and feels wrong. It's very wrong. Well, I mean, it all just, it all just comes down to like this gig economy and capitalism

and like how the cults that surround just like the wild ways you can make funny, make funny, make money on social media. Yeah. It's insane. Oh, wow. Speechless. I know. This was quite quite the episode. Yeah. Thank you guys for coming on and shedding all of your insight and knowledge on cults. Thanks for having us.

This has been so much fun. You pulled like amazing Reddit stories. I see this is, I mean, you're, you're a Reddit genius. Yeah. Honestly, those were perfectly curated. You guys do the stress I went through. It's hard. I mean, and well, the more you think about it, I'm like, I'm now in the belief I'm like, everything is a cult. My podcast is a cult.

Yeah. Yeah. We're a cult. But it's all of your life. Yeah. Yeah. Because we're on it. There you go.

Yeah, exactly. Where can people listen to your podcast? How can they find you guys? Where do they follow? Yeah. So our podcast is called sounds like a cult and our podcast Instagram is sounds like a cult pod. And Amanda, you have a book. Oh, yes.

A full-fledged book. Yeah. I have a book called cultish the language of fanaticism about the language of cults from Scientology to SoulCycle. You can find that wherever you buy books. That's amazing. And I'm Issa Medina and Amanda Montell. Thank you guys. There are going to be some Patreon stories about the cults

and the personal writings we have from you guys. So be sure to head over there to check those out. Bye. Bye. The thought of my sons growing up without me inspired me to quit smoking. I talked to my doctors and then I threw away all my cigarettes, ashtrays, and lighters. I started exercising instead of smoking.

Staying away from alcohol when I was first quitting was key. I kept on trying, learned something each time. Do whatever it takes. No matter how many times it takes. We did it. So can you. Currently this must end by 6324. Extra charge for miles over 20,000. Residency restrictions apply.

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