UAP Unidentified Alien Podcast - UAP EP 135 Avi Loeb Interview - The Truth Behind the Four Alien Species

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

World renowned Harvard professor and Astrophysicist, Avi Loeb joins Stephen Diener to discuss his work on the Galileo Project and how he might be able to shift UFO research in a new direction. Plus, what are we to make of Eric Davis' recent claims regarding the four different alien species we are dealing with here on earth? Avi has some unique insight on all of that and more during this episode of UAP...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Grab the Dave and Mahoney podcast now on Apple Podcasts on Spotify and at daven Mahoney.com. Welcome back into UAP. Stephen Deiner here with you, as always, on the Unidentified Alien Podcast for this episode, 135. Wow, 135 episodes, I guess officially, even more if I count differently. But that's okay, because either way, we're back here for a new episode of UAP. And we're going to close out May pretty strong, I think, with my interview with Avi Loeb. Boy, just looking back on some of the things this month with Louelizondo or Ashton

Forbes, now with Avi Loeb, and just so much more. It was really quite the month. And going into the prophecies of the Pope and things like that, it was a jam-packed month, and I'm really happy that I was able to bring all that to you during the month of May. And I look forward to some new adventures in June, because I can tell you right now, just a little preview. Maybe I can do a preview first. It's a little different.

but to start off the month of June, I'll be coming back from Contact in the Desert where I hope to have some nice interviews and tidbits and information and some things to relate to you on the first episode of UAP when I come back from Contact in the Desert for the beginning of June.

So I look forward to bringing you all the news and notes from that conference. It should be a lot of fun. And I do have some pretty cool interviews, or at least some meetings, interviews, many interviews, I'll say, set up. while I'm there on Saturday, May 31st. So looking forward to bring you some of that stuff.

Hopefully it all comes together. Nothing falls through. We'll see how it goes. But aside from that, today, let's focus on right now because I'm going to bring you, like I said, this interview with Avi Loeb. And this is someone who I've been trying to get on the show for a long time. And I'm really happy that it kind of worked out. It actually worked out because of contact in the desert.

Avi is going to be there, but I couldn't interview him there. so I was offered the opportunity to interview him beforehand. And I said, absolutely, whenever he's available, let's do it. So I'm really happy to be able to have him on UAP for the first time right now. Of course, world-renowned astrophysicists from Harvard professor there, you know, started the Gallaglio project, heads that project. Really one of the more renowned, or most renowned, I would say even scientists and astrophysicists who really takes this subject of UAPs, the, you know, question of UFOs and other life, this topic, it takes it seriously. And I actually bring that up with him during the interview.

I ask him specifically about some of the other scientists in his field who don't take it seriously and why they don't and all the reasons, you know, maybe why they should take it seriously. So we get into that along with some really great stuff. We start off, I mean, I just go right at about zero point energy and MH370. I ask him his opinions on that. and if those videos and if that scenario could actually happen. And it was an answer I've never gotten before when it comes to zero point energy, so to speak,

and the possibility of that technology existing that we see in those MH370 videos. Of course, I just spoke about that with Ashton very recently. So that was really something. It was in a perspective that I had never heard before, which leave it to Avi Lobb to have a completely different perspective and open up my horizon. So we get into that to start off the episode right away. Have we even misunderstood it in some cases? Really interesting stuff.

Very heady interview. Talks about time travel a little bit, which I really thought was really cool. And then he talks about something that's, I think is brilliant. Again, Avi Loeb, smart guy, about wanting to start a kind of like a Manhattan project but for UFOs. and the money that he's asking the government to fund this research. And it sounds like a lot, but he puts it into perspective to show that, you know, comparing to other things, it really isn't a lot what he's asking for. So we get in basically his missions when it comes to the Galileo project,

what he's trying to do in researching UAPs to find these answers and mix it all together with mainstream science and physics and kind of, you know, do what other people are kind of afraid to do. Avi's never been shy about trying to bridge these two worlds together, which is one of the reasons why I was so excited to talk to him for so many years, and grateful I was able to finally do that here today. I also asked him about an Israeli space minister who had some really, I guess you could say, front page things to say about the Galactic Federation.

And that was something that happened about five or six years ago, but I would thought, you know what, I would love to ask Avi Lope about this. So we talk about that scenario and we get his reaction to Eric Davis speaking to Congressman Eric Burleson and the rest of the room at that much talked about in Ballyhoo, UAP roundtable that took place with Avi Loeb and Eric Davis and Lou Elizando. We know all about it. It was like we said, very, very widely reported on, I guess it's probably the best way to put it. And one of the things that made a lot of waves from that, from that, more. morning from that day in D.C. was Eric Davis saying to the room, and specifically Eric Burleson sitting right in front of him about the four different alien species that we deal with here on

this planet. And that really took everybody by surprise to hear someone like Eric Davis say that in such a setting that they had that day in front of congressmen and women. It was in such a public setting. So I asked Avi, what was the reaction like? What was your reaction? What did you make out of that. Really cool, really interesting discussion. One of those things that maybe you have to listen to it a couple of times just to kind of pick up on all the different minutiae that Avi puts in there. But I'll let you dig into it right now. Myself with Avi Loeb, episode 135 right here on UAP. Enjoy this one. A lot of fun. Very happy to have Avi Loeb join me now for the first time on UAP. Avi, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Boy, there's a, I hate to say, a long list here of things that I would love to cover with you. If only we had about three or four hours to speak, but we'll try to fit in as much as we can. It depends on the cycle that you put in the laundry machine. You can make it a short cycle. That's right, a light wash. That said, I want to touch on first something that really just kind of jump right into it. When it comes to something that's a little bit controversial like zero point energy, I want to kind of get your take on the possibility that zero point energy might be something that's kind of in the background, a truth that is in the background that surrounds the UFO topic.

Maybe something as a propulsion system that the craft to use, that they take advantage of zero point energy. Or conversely, something that the U.S. government has cracked and they don't want to let that secret out. What is your take on that subject? Well, first, let's talk about the facts. if there was a vacuum energy density, meaning some zero point, establishing the ground state of the vacuum,

as not a zero energy, but some finite energy density, it would have a huge gravitational influence on the expansion of the universe. And we did indeed measure that. Okay. And even though quantum mechanics would have predicted in the current version that we are using, would have predicted much larger values for the vacuum energy density. The one that was observed in the universe implies a very small vacuum energy density,

smaller by 120 orders of magnitude than the expected value, which is close to the Planck scale. So the bottom line is some people thought it may be zero, but quantum mechanics expected it to be much larger than the one observed in the universe. So what we know is it's tiny. It's about the order of 29 orders of magnitude lower than the density of solids. Okay, so we're talking about something that is extremely rarefied. That's the zero point energy of the vacuum. If it was bigger than that, the universe would have exploded, okay?

Would have expanded much faster. The sun would never be born. We would not exist. So some people say it had to be that small in order for us to exist. This is called the anthropic argument. And this vacuum energy density is called the cosmological constant or the dark energy. We measured it. It's not as if it's something we don't know anything about.

It could be anything. Okay, given this very small value, you can ask the following question. Suppose you develop some technology that takes advantage of this vacuum energy density. it's the energy density, meaning energy pyramid volume. You cannot harvest more than that value, okay? And you really need to go across a very large region of space in order to get some meaningful amount of energy. You can't really maneuver a spacecraft across a region

that is a few miles in size because there isn't much vacuum energy density there. Okay? Now, there is a separate question of, Can we create or generate a substance that we've never seen before that has negative mass? That's a very different thing. I mean, the vacuum energy density is positive, the one that we observe in the universe. It's not negative.

But in principle, Einstein's theory of gravity allows for a negative mass, meaning a mass that produces repulsive gravity rather than attractive gravity. We know gravity usually attracts, and that's because we are dealing with positive masses. But in principle, just like in electromagnetism, you can have positive and negative charges. Einstein's theory of gravity allows for positive and negative masses. As long as the gravitating mass, which is the coupling of the mass to gravity, is also equal to the so-called inertial mass, which is the way that an object responds to an external force. So if both masses are the same, Einstein's theory of gravity allows it.

And what does it mean to have a negative mass? It means that if you attach a string to a negative mass and pull on the string downwards, let's say, this negative mass will float upwards. So it will feel like a balloon. You are trying to pull it down. It goes opposite because it has a negative mass. It responds opposite to the force acting on it. And then if you let the string go, you let it loose, then this negative mass will fall down to the ground because it behaves just like a positive mass. It behaves under gravity the same way as a positive mass.

The mass doesn't matter. All objects follow gravity the same way in Einstein's theory of gravity. This is called the equivalence research. So it's a very unusual object. Now, if you take a negative mass and attach it to a positive mass of the same value, the same magnitude, then the total mass of this object will be zero because you have equal negative and positive values. And that would mean that it will not couple to gravity. Such an object will float in order to kick it out of the earth.

You know, you just give it a nudge. You don't need the starship rocket. that includes mostly fuel. You know, Starship is huge, but the size of it is dictated by the amount of fuel that this rocket has to carry in order for it to lift off the surface of Earth. Right.

But if you had a negative mass, you can just put a mass that is equal to the payload. That's it. You don't need this huge rocket and give it a nod and it will float out of Earth because gravity doesn't bind it. It has zero mass. Doesn't couple to gravity.

It doesn't care about gravity. So you can imagine a propulsion system, that doesn't need fuel. You can escape gravity without fuel, but only if you can make a negative mass. So it's not the same as having a zero point energy of the vacuum. This is a completely different concept of negative mass, mass that is coupled to gravity with a negative sign,

just like opposite side, the electric charges, and the way they couple to electric fields. And so we don't know if that's possible, if it's possible to generate negative masses, then I can imagine very sophisticated propulsion systems. In fact, you can show that in principle, you can accelerate it to close to the speed of light with very little effort,

such a negative and positive mass configuration. So I would say we just don't know if negative masses exist. We don't have a quantum theory of gravity that could potentially lead to such objects. So this is unknown, to the zero point energy of the vacuum, there is just not enough there to excavate it and use it for propulsion. It's interesting.

How does that compare to something like, you know, Tesla worked on, right, over 100 years ago? When it comes to Tesla's free energy and what he was trying to do there, how does that compare to negative energy? And, you know, was he onto something, essentially? Because so many people talk about that to this day, could we have had free energy based off of what Tesla was doing 100 plus years ago? No, everything we found in nature, all experimental data that physicists accumulated even before Tesla, but after as well, did not reveal negative mass object.

I mean, there are situations, for example, there is the so-called Kazimir effect, which is basically if you take two metal plates, then the vacuuming quantum mechanics, is fluctuating all the time. It's not steady and it's not dormant. So there are fluctuations of the vacuum all the time in quantum mechanics. And if you put those two metal plates, they basically do not allow fluctuations with a wavelength bigger than the separation of the plates to exist between the two plates.

So you end up with less vacuum energy density between the plates compared to what is outside. So they get pushed together, so to speak. But that is, you know, the amount of mass that you have in the metal plates and the energy that they carry is far more than the vacuum in between them. So this is not really a way of creating negative mass. We just don't know if it's possible. And by the way, if we had negative mass or an exotic matter with negative mass, we would be able to build a time machine. And one thing I can tell you for sure, Jews, the Jewish people, were never able to build a time machine in the future, not just as of now, but even in the future.

Because if any Jewish scientist was able to build a time machine, I'm sure that they would do one thing, go back to the beginning of the Second World War and save six million people from Hitler by shooting. Hitler, but that never happened. So that means no Jew in the future had access to a time machine. There's our, there's our proof on that theory anyway. Very good. On that same note, though, when it comes to, and I do want to ask you about a couple of other things, but I wanted to get this subject kind of, you know, on block A, if you will, when it comes to the subject of negative energy or time travel, wormholes, teleportation,

there is something that's talked about a lot. In fact, I just had him on here last week, and I think you're familiar with Ashton Forbes. I think you've seen the videos of the purported MH370 teleporting wormhole. He interviewed me and showed that video during the interview. That was the first time I saw it, yes. What is, just to reiterate, because I know you guys have spoken about it, like you said, he interviewed you about it. But just to get your take here on UAP, what is your, I guess, hypothesis or theory on whether or not that video could be real of this AirP? plane that's still missing to this day after 11 years.

Well, I don't know. There is not good enough data about that particular event, but the same holds for many reports, you know, that are coming from military or intelligence agencies. So there are events that we cannot fully explain. And there are two possibilities. Okay. So in the context of unidentified anomalous phenomena, You know, it's possible that some of these are objects manufactured by adversarial nations,

in which case it's a national security threat. And the Department of Defense gets, actually we'll get in fiscal year 26, about a trillion dollars for that year. And when the intelligence agencies come back or the Department of Defense comes back and says, You know, there are some objects in the sky that we cannot explain. It means that they are not doing their job because they're supposed to figure out what flies in the sky, not just the Chinese pie balloon. So this is a matter of importance for national security. And, you know, even if one in a million of these objects happens to be from an extraterrestrial origin, that would be the biggest discovery that science made ever. and whoever discovers it will get the Nobel Prize.

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And let me make a promise. If I discover extraterrestrial intelligence, I would decline. any invitation from the Nobel Committee to go and visit Stockholm, because why should I waste, why should anyone waste time on a prize that is awarded by humans to humans for many years instead of spending the rest of my life on learning from a higher intelligence out there? I think that is much more thrilling. The price itself is completely irrelevant. the implications for humanity would be much bigger than that.

And so I do think that it's really important for us to consider that possibility, but even if we don't find extraterrestrial intelligence or gadgets that account for some UAPs as extraterrestrial, even if there is not, I mean, we identify all of them, I would feel good because, you know, I helped the Department of Defense figure out what is in the sky. And by that, I contributed to national security. They can use the machine learning algorithms that are developed by the Galileo project and the suite of sensors that we are working on to benefit the defense of the country. So it's a win-win situation.

And a few weeks ago, I advocated for a scientific study of UAPs in the U.S. Congress, and I said that to resolve the nature of all UAPs or millions of them, I think that we should invest a billion dollars in that study. And it will be just like the Manhattan Project, where you can attract the very best scientists worldwide to work it and figure it out and at the very least it would help national security now some people ask why why does it require so much money the answer is you know that's the level of funding that is allocated routinely i'm not asking for something very unusual this is routine in any

major scientific projects experimental projects that are targeting an important goal or question In fact, to find the Higgs boson with a large Hadron Collider required $10 billion. To find the first stars and galaxies by the Webb Telescope required $10 billion. To find evidence for microbes over the next two decades, astronomers are asking for more than $10 billion. I'm saying for 10% of that budget, we can address a question that could be important for national security. And moreover, you know, it's only 0.1% of... the expenditure on the defense budget in one year. Now, the other argument that people make is,

oh, the Department of Defense already invested billions of dollars in sensors, and they cannot figure out what the UAPs are. So why should we invest even any additional penny in that direction? Well, the answer is that it's not just about the instruments, you know, for the same reason that you can invest billions of dollars in building a stadium, but you will not necessarily have the best game in town unless you have the players in that stadium.

So the right players. So the point is, you know, government is not a scientific organization. If you want to attract the very smartest and, you know, best minds in science worldwide, you really need to pay a significant amount of money for both the experimental efforts, and that talent to attract it.

And without doing that, just having instruments, if you don't have the right filter or the right artificial intelligence software, you might just notice things, smudges in the image, and you will ignore them. I mean, why wasn't the Chinese spy balloon identified to start with? I mean, you can have the very expensive instruments, but without having the tools that are needed to identify,

outliers, you won't find outliers. So it's really about the quality of the work done, not the amount of money you put into the hardware. And my point is, let's resolve this question of what UAPs are, if they exist out there. We should figure them out. And it's a matter of national security. Yeah, well said. And there's actually a lot there that you mentioned that I do want to ask you about a follow up on. Recently, Lou Alizando, who I know you were with very recently in Washington, you see at that roundtable meeting you referred to there where you suggested that billion dollar budget to study everything. He was on with Dr. Phil.

And he mentioned a, I guess, something that he knows about when it comes to how our sensors in space and satellites are able to pick these things up. When I say these things, we're talking about UAPs, UFOs. And a lot of that stuff is not shown to the American public. Can you talk on that a little bit, Avi? Well, so within government, data is collected by classified sensors, and partly, you know, the classification is to avoid adversarial nations from knowing which sensors the U.S. is employing. That's one reason. But in addition to that, you know, in difference from the way science is done, in government, people who are not doing their job are protected from scrutiny if data is not released openly. So there is an incentive for, for example, for the analysis of the data not to be released so that nobody would infer that those responsible for analyzing data are not doing their

job or they misinterpret some data. Now, in science, it doesn't work that way because you are supposed to convince your peers that first the data is accurate and real and reliable. Second, that you analyzed it correctly. You calibrated the instruments. You fully understand how the data was collected. And finally, that the interpretation is robust. And when you deal with peers, you know, it's a struggle.

You have to convince the reviewers of your paper. You later have to defend it in talks. But this is not the way the government operates. And as a result, you know, there is an incentive not to reveal the weakness. of the intelligence agencies just because then adversarial nations will be aware of it. Congress will be aware of it. You know, some programs will be closed. Some people will get fired.

So there is a way out, and that is to keep it under wraps. In addition, of course, to the national security concerns that you don't want everyone to know. But I should say that data from 50 years ago, you know, it's completely irrelevant on most matters, you know. because since then, technology evolved so much. And therefore, we should be able to go back 50 years, maybe 75 years, and see if there were any unusual objects that were either documented or perhaps even retrieved if they exist. Now, I didn't have access to that data.

I never saw anything reliable that indicates beyond any doubt. And it's possible the government has it that indicates extraterrestrial origin. And if government has it, I would love to see it, and it would basically save me time. But I don't rely on government for that matter, because if objects exist, we should find them independently. The sky is not classified. The oceans are not classified. Yeah, and it's so funny, I think you read my mind, actually, because I was about to ask you, do you think, and, you know, again, theoretically speaking here, do you think that there are a lot, or maybe there is a lot of damning evidence that the government is holding back, which would make your job in your life a lot easier, given the Galileo Project, which has done great work. You've done great work with that in the past, and I commend you for it. I think a lot of people in the UFO community do as well, because you take this seriously in someone in your position. it's refreshing to see that because not many people in your position do. So I've always liked that you do.

So I mean, is there something out there that could make your life easier, that they're holding back? Well, I take it seriously specifically because the director of national intelligence and the Department of Defense are taking it seriously. They have the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office. Now, we don't have access to everything that they know. but the fact that they take it seriously means that this category of unidentified anomalous phenomenon needs to be explained and these objects need to be identified. There should be nothing in the sky that we don't understand. And if we don't understand a certain class of objects, it may mean that our adversaries have technologies that we are not aware of.

the Chinese may have some drones that we've never heard about. We need to find out. And the reason I take it seriously is because it's important for national security. I mean, this is something we need to understand. And of course, as a scientist, my main motivation is maybe one out of a million. I mean, obviously it's a mixed bag. There are many objects that are natural or human made. But if one in a million or one in a billion happens to be from extraterrestrial origin, then that

would be, as I said, a huge discovery for science. And that's what motivates me right now. But I wouldn't feel bad. I wouldn't feel that my time was wasted if no object is found simply because it contributes to national security. Yeah. No, I think that's fair. Hey, guys.

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Explore your options at canesley manor.org, a nonprofit month-to-month senior community within the Front Porch family. I am curious, though, looking at kind of your peers and even looking back in the past, someone like Jay Allen Hynick or someone like Carl Sagan, and how seriously they took this subject and they spoke on it. And now we look here in the presence, yourself or Neil deGrasse Tyson. There's a lot of different perspectives on this conversation depending on the scientific field. Why do you think that more scientists like yourself or astrophysicists or anybody in this field don't take it more seriously? Even from a national security perspective, like you said, even if they find it to be a little bit too, you know, conspiratorial or woo-woo to talk about aliens or UFOs and they think it's funny, just little green men, why don't they take it more seriously just on the national security side?

I don't fully understand that. I think that's misguided. And I think more research should be done in the standard scientific way. I think it's more relevant to society than, for example, understanding the nature of dark matter. I mean, what would be the impact on most people's lives if it ends up, dark matter ends up being an axon rather than a weakly interacting massive particle? Not much. And billions of dollars were dedicated to that. So for those people who say, oh, science should not receive more funding, I say, well, you are giving that funding already.

It's just a question of priorities. Do you care about this question more than the nature of dark matter? Then, yes, we should address that. Why? Because it will help national security. We'll have new sensors, new AI algorithms that help us identify objects in the sky. And at the same time, entertain the possibility that there might be something from an extraterrestrial origin, which would be a huge discovery if found.

So it's a win-win situation. And we're not talking about a level of funding far beyond what was done before. I'm just talking about a fraction, hedging our bets. You know, we are putting most of the money in the direction of looking for microbes in the context of astrobiology. The Habitable World Observatory will cost more than $10 billion. That's the proposal. That's the mainstream highest priority within the astronomy community.

and, you know, that nobody says anything about that. It sounds completely fair for scientists to ask for that much money to find whether, you know, there is primitive life elsewhere. But I say at least 10% of that budget should be allocated to the possibility that there might be intelligent life out there. And you can ask, okay, so how do we search for technological signatures? One of them is UAPs. Why? Because it also benefits national security. So that's my recommendation. It's not an amount of funds that is pulled out of thin air.

That's the typical budget that is actually less than the typical budget allocated for the search for microbes by a factor of 10. And moreover, you can think about other ways. You can design a space telescope that will search through all the rocks that arrive into the solar system from outside and check if among them there is any space trash. You know, just on January 2nd, 2025, an amateur astronomer identified a near-earth object that was catalogued as an asteroid. And then shortly afterwards, it was realized this object is following exactly the trajectory of the Tesla-Rodestar car that was launched by SpaceX. So here you have an example of a technological object that we produced that was mistaken for a rock. But there might be objects that were produced by other civilizations that are not functional. They are not UAPs.

They are just floating in space. And we can find them with a dedicated space telescope. Why do you, I mean, because you bring up such a good point as to all the discoveries that could come from this. Why do you think it's met with so much resistance in the scientific field? Well, there are several reasons for that. Some people regard it as risky because they say that. that we are, you know, the idea that there is something like us elsewhere is an extraordinary claim. I argue that it's an ordinary claim.

I don't think very highly of us, just read the news every day. And, you know, there are billions of sun, earth analogs in the Milky Way galaxy alone. And to me it sounds completely reasonable to say, okay, under similar circumstances, things like, us existed elsewhere. So it's not actually risky. It's more risky to look for weekly interacting massive particles, as dark matter, because it could be many other things. And people dedicated 50 years of their career to the experimental search for weekly interacting massive particles. So it's completely unreasonable, in my opinion, especially since we are hoping to search for microbes with a huge budget of $10 billion, not to entertain the search for technological

signatures at least at 10% of that budget. And you can ask what are the best ways. You can search for industrial pollution in planetary atmospheres. You can search for city lights on the surfaces of planets. And you can search for objects either functional near Earth in the form of UAPs or just space trash with just surveying the objects that come into the solar system from outside. All of these are possibilities. And in the past 70 years, there was only the SETI community,

which was basically dedicated to the search for radio signals. We're not using radio communication as much as we did 50 years ago. And moreover, you know, it's just like waiting for a phone call. Nobody may call you when you are waiting. you know, it may take a while before we notice a signal in our direction. But looking for objects is a completely different ballgame because they keep collecting over time. They don't run away at the speed of light. Now, it's interesting you brought up SETI because I was thinking about that too and how much

things have evolved since then. What's your take on the current administration of and how seriously they're taking this subject? Have you found it different just in being in D.C. within the past couple of weeks and speaking with some of the congressmen and women there about this subject with Willizano and Eric Davis and others who were there. Do you find it a different approach with the new administration and taking it more seriously that they want answers, that they want you guys to look into this more and report back? Well, yeah, I think the new administration is very ambitious on many fronts. There are lots of things going on right now. And that takes away some of the oxygen in the room, of course, the fact that there are so many objectives that are being pursued at the same time,

both internationally and within the U.S. But also I would argue that they are more open-minded to revealing information that was previously hidden from view. And there is a task force on federal secrets that is led by, by Representative Anna Paulina Luna. I met her and found her to be very bright and inspiring. And so, you know, we are learning more details about the JFK. We will learn more about RFK and MLK assassinations

from whatever documents still exist and people that were around at the time remember. And my hope is the same will apply also to anything to do with UAPs if such information exists within government. So there is a chance we will learn more. Yeah. And I wanted to ask you about this. This is something that it may sound silly. Okay.

I'm just going to put that out there right now. But it's a story I heard a few years ago. And it's just one of those stories that kind of pops back into my hands. head every now and then. And that I have you on here today. I have to ask you about this. There was an Israeli space minister who said in an interview maybe five or six years ago. He spoke about the existence of a galactic federation. And that's the U.S., along with some other countries like Germany and Russia, are in communication with this galactic federation, but they're not ready to reveal themselves yet because we're not far enough advanced for their liking.

what do we make out of that? I mean, do we take something like that? That's a massive claim, Avi. Is that something that should be paid attention to more? That was said five, six years ago. He was actually in the intelligence when he claims that he learned about the information that might be revealing such a claim. And I mean, he never showed us the sources of the information.

And, you know, until him, he was interviewed on this matter, he was very reliable and highly respected. So it may well be that he is telling the truth. The question is, what are the sources? You know, it's just like any other subject you want to see the actual evidence. And it's possible that, you know, he heard things or saw things that are not real because they were just appearing in. documents. So until we learn more, we would not know. But yes, he was talking about that in an interview on one of the major newspapers in Israel. I never met him in person, but someone mentioned him to me and then we looked at his book and it turns out that in his book he refers to my work on

Omoa Muamua. And that was interesting. I didn't even know that he referred to me. His name is Ellie Eshed. And I don't know how reliable is this statement that he made. And of course, there are also people like David Grush within the U.S. that talk about things the U.S. government has. And Eric Davis that spoke at the briefing to Congress. Yeah, he mentioned four different species to Congressman Burleson. I mean, Eric Davis straight up said that there's four different species that, you know, we've been in contact with over the years. Yeah, but you have to always remember that, you know, people can tell stories and the question is, should you believe them or not? And the stories that people tell, even if they do it under oath and they are fully convinced, as we know from the legal system, are sometimes wrong. So in order to be absolutely sure that there is something behind it, we have to see the evidence.

evidence. Okay, we can't just believe the stories. I haven't seen the evidence. Maybe Eric Davis did. I mean, if it did, then it's completely justified for him to say that. But I cannot verify if what he's saying is correct until I see something. I am curious. I wanted to get to one more thing before we were done. But just a follow up on that, what was your personal reaction when you heard, because I made a lot of waves when Eric Davis said that in that setting, staring at congressmen in his face and saying that there's four different species that we've dealt with here in this country, what was your personal reaction when he said that? And what did you feel like the reaction of the room was in that moment? Well, my reaction is different than the room probably. But my thoughts,

as soon as he said that, were that surely the government has a program for retrieval and reverse engineering of material from crash sites. Because because, you know, we are in possession of airplanes or drones that crashed in battlefields, and we want to figure out the technology is used by adversarial nations. So you have to have a unit that collects from, you know, crash sites, whatever they find. And then other people reverse engineering, try to figure out what these things are. Now, the fundamental question is, do these programs, did they always retrieve human-made technologies? because suppose they retrieved something that is highly classified,

it represents something the Russians have or whoever has, and they just don't want the adversarial nations to be aware that they have it in their possession. So they could invent stories and say, oh, this is just an alien craft. And in that case, of course, the pilots that you find in those craft, they will have the proportions of a human body. And of course, they might be different types of human bodies there. You know, you might find Europeans. You might find people from other ethnic origins that, you know, look differently.

And especially if their appearance was distorted by the crash, you might give very exotic names to those types of, you know, bodies that you find. And then Eric Davis would hear these reports that are twisted and distorted just to prevent that the Sera nation from knowing that, you know, that the U.S. captured some, you know, some things. And he would say, yeah, definitely I heard that. You know, we have those four types. Now, my thought is why would they all be the size of people, you know, like if you imagine creatures on earth, they come in very different sizes, very likely extraterrestrial. comes in very different sizes, very likely, any pilots that you would retrieve with come in very different sizes, they would look very different than these descriptions. For example, I wrote an essay

just a couple of days ago about how many eyes should aliens, could aliens have? And that by itself is an interesting question. And, you know, how many heads, how many, you know, why should they have the size of a person? And in fact, I would expect a lot of AI assisted pilots, if we are developing AI right now, you know, in a hundred years, the pilots will be just AI, will have AI brains, you know, either through implants on biological bodies or through just technological gadgets. So my point is, you know, I'm not convinced that whatever he described is not just a variant on human-made things that were labeled as alien just to fool our adversaries. and he believed those labels.

Okay? So that's the fundamental question I have. Now, the people in the room, obviously some of them were very excited to hear him say that, believed him and, you know, want to see it revealed. If it exists, I would love to see it revealed. But all I'm saying is that there is also a second way of interpreting the same thing. Yeah, it's really very interesting perspective.

So as we get out of here, Avikas, I know you're, time is short and I do appreciate all the time you spend here today. I really enjoy this. Where would you like to see? What is your goal? Say, this is short-term goal a year from now. Yeah. Where do you want to see yourself in your studies and conversations you've had, programs you've got approved, maybe discoveries you've made? What is your short-term goal for this area of study that you're trying to find these answers in right now when it comes to UAPs. Well, it's very simple to be flooded with data, to have as much data as possible about anomalies, because once you have a lot of data, nobody can brush it under the carpet.

You know, even the Vatican in 1992 admitted that Galileo was right. Why did they do that? Why did they put Galileo in house arrest and then 350 years after he died said that he was right? It was because there was so much data that shows that he was right that they couldn't escape that conclusion. So even though they wanted the outcome to be different, once there is a lot of data, they would look crazy if they were to say, no, the earth is at the center of the universe. So I would like to have as much data as possible so that anyone who denies the anomalies would appear crazy. Nice. Give Avi the data. Let's go. It's pilot on there. Avi Lowe, thank you so much for doing this. Really appreciate the time.

And hopefully we can talk again in the future. Thank you so much. Thanks. I love talking to him. And I hope to have him on again in the future. Really enjoy that interview. And like I said, just the entire month of May, so much great stuff. This might go down in history as one of the most, I don't know, newsworthy or I don't even

if we say that, but just packed months of UAP maybe ever. And so now we've got to try to do it all again over, right? and start off June the right way. Like I said, coming back from contact in the desert going this weekend, and I look forward to experiencing that and getting together with so many people. Just a final note on that. I've mentioned it a few times. But if you are going, you can find me specifically at the Hollywood Disclosure Alliance booth, HDA, for short,

1 p.m. to 2 p.m. on Saturday, May 31st. I'll be there for that entire hour. So if you are going and you wanted to stop by and say hello, please by all means feel free. or if you come across me in the hallway or something wherever at lunch, I don't know, then feel free to stop and say hello as well. I'm really looking forward to meeting a lot of great people there this weekend and coming back with a lot of great stories to start off the month of June here on UAP. That'll be episode 136 in a few days to start things off right, hopefully for the month of June.

But I mean, and who knows what else is going to happen? I mean, there's so much to cover. There's a lot of things that I was thinking about over the past couple of months that I think I'm going to be able to cover now in the month of June. So I think I might actually get Scott Roder back on the show. He called me a couple weeks ago and said, hey, I got some new information on the Vegas case. So I'm just putting that out there. Nothing definite.

Nothing set in stone. We talked about it a couple weeks ago. And I said, hey, let's catch up again in June. And so I hope to be able to do that with Scott Roder to bring him back on and hear what new details he has on the Vegas case because we haven't been able to cover that in a while because there really hasn't been much new. Scott says he's got something new. So I would love to talk to him about it. And I hope to do that early on in the month of June. And I want to be able to cover a lot of the stuff going on in South America with these spheres and the study on these spheres that are flying

around, especially the one that crashed in Colombia. I want to look into that more. I want to look more into the Peruvian mummies, the tridactals there. You know, these, I think, been proven to be non-human. And, you know, there's a lot of different reports about that. There's been a lot of scientific study on it, so I hate to use the word proven, but that's what I want to look into more also in the month of June. So there's a lot of things in my mind, and I think I'm going to be able to get to some of those things here coming up in the next few episodes of UAP, and who knows what else will pop up coming up here on UAP.

But I hope that you stick around, and I appreciate you sticking around so much here. As we approach at the beginning of July, four years of UAP. So I look forward to that anniversary as well. And like I said, so many great things to come. So stick around, follow along on social media at UA Podcast 850 to follow along on Twitter and TikTok. That's at UA Podcast 850. And on YouTube at UA Podcast, going to have a lot of new interviews up there. The Raw Files with Lou Elizondo with Ashton Forbes.

So I'm going to try to get those interviews up here pretty soon. You can check those out on YouTube to see the full video, unedited versions of myself with those guys. and a few more things we're going to try to get up there as well on YouTube. So at UA Podcast on YouTube, you can check it out. Just search UAP podcast. Something should come up. And of course, wherever you get your podcast, continue to download and subscribe. Apple, Spotify, Amazon, all those great places.

Just search UAP and it should come up there on any of the podcasting platforms. But by all means, you can also send me any messages as well on those social media platforms. And that email, S-Dieneru-U-A-P at gmail.com, S-D-I-E-E-A-A-E-A. N-E-R-U-A-P at gmail.com. But overall, thank you so much for joining here. Thank you so much for all the love, the kind messages, and for continuing to stop by, UAP, and take a listen and follow along on all these crazy adventures.

Thank you again to Avi Loeb. Look forward to a lot of great stuff here coming up. I really enjoy that interview, a lot of really good takeaways on that one to consider. A lot to chew on from that interview with Avi Loeb and hope to do that again sometime in the future. So on that note, thank you all again for everything, for all the kind messages, for all the support.

It really does truly mean the world to me. Thank you so much for that. So until next time, it is Stephen Deiner here saying, be well, thanks. And we'll talk again soon. Can't wait to talk again soon right here on UAP, the Unidentified Alien Podcast.