UAP Unidentified Alien Podcast - UAP EP 148 Going Down the "Rabbit Hole" with Kelly Chase

Episode Date: August 5, 2025

Stephen Diener sits down with the highly respected and well known podcaster, Kelly Chase, to discuss what is going on behind the scenes with the biggest stories in Ufology today. Plus, what are some stories or people that are not getting their just dues? And we learn about Kelly's own personal other worldly experiences that led her down the "Rabbit Hole." All that and more right now...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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a nonprofit month-to-month senior community within the Front Porch family. Yes, welcome back into UAP for episode number 148. Stephen Dean are back with you here, as always, on the Unidentified Alien podcast. For a new episode, we got some new stuff this week. You know, last week I really wanted to kind of spend some time on putting out the previous episodes, I guess you can say, or I guess you can say older episodes for the greatest hits editions, because a lot of that stuff was really good. And I want to make sure it gets remembered.

So last week I wanted to do that. But this week we're back with some brand new episodes, starting with my interview here today with Kelly Chase, the great Kelly Chase, who's made famous from her podcast, the UFO rabbit hole, which at one point was one of the biggest podcasts in the world, not only in the UFOs sector, but just in general. And so I was really happy to meet her back at contact in the desert a couple of months ago. and we spoke there, did a shorter interview. That was like a 10, 15-minute interview somewhere in there when we met a couple months ago at Contact in the Desert. But this time around, we said, you know what, let's go ahead and just go for it and do the actual thing here,

the full-length interview on UAP. This has been a couple months in the making, actually. We said back then that, you know, let's do this for sure sometime down the road. And I was happy to do that here on this new episode. And Kelly was great. I mean, and now she works on her show of Cosmosis, and we talk about that. We talk about the rabbit hole and how that got started because it actually goes back to her own experiences.

She is an experiencer and she had an incredible one. And the thing that got me about it, and you're going to hear her talk about it here during the conversation, the thing that got me, and we actually mentioned this, is that it relates so closely to so many other experiences who have these different, you know, events at different times in their lives and different locations in the world. But yet somehow, some way, they're all kind of seeing the same thing or having something similar happen to them. So it's just incredible. And that's one of the things that I find most fascinating about the phenomenon in general is how you could have so many different people from different walks of life at different times throughout, you know, history, have similar or even the same experiences. So it's just incredible stuff. And we get into some of that.

Plus some of the other, I guess you can say top stories. in the UFO world where we talk about this interstellar object going through space, what that might be, and all the reactions surrounding it and all the sensationalism that has come out from it from the different news publications. Plus one story that I think should be bigger, but isn't getting as much attention as the interstellar object floating through space. And plus, I ask her the question, what should be paid attention to more? Like what story or what person should people pay attention to more? And what we get at it? into there might actually surprise you

of what she has to say. Actually, I've, I'd never heard this before, so I was shocked. So much more. We get into a lot here during this interview. So it's Kelly Chase. You know it's going to be good. Me and Kelly Chase together for the first time here on a full-length episode of UAP. Enjoy.

Well, this is a first, and I'm really excited officially to have Kelly Chase from Cosmosis here on UAP, the Unidentified Alien podcast. I say officially because we did a little mini interview at Contacting desert back a couple months ago, but I'm glad to bring you on here officially, Kelly, thanks for joining.

Oh, thanks so much for having me. It's great to see you again, Stephen. Yeah, likewise. So I know there's a ton going on. There's, you know, no shortage of news these days in the UFO, UAP world. So I want to kind of jump right into it with the top stories, if you will. And I also want to ask you about your experiences because, you know, we always get so much into the weeds of all of the big stories going on. ask you about you, so we'll get to that as well. But when it comes

to one of the big things that's been floating around, I guess, literally, this object in space. A lot of speculation lately about Atlas, this rock comet, interstellar object, I guess maybe the best way to put it. Avi Loeb says this. Someone else

says that. Avi Loeb's words get misconstrued. So it goes back and forth. What do you make of all this craziness, of all of this hubbub about this interstellar object coming towards Earth and that it might be a hostile alien craft. Oh, gosh. Yeah, that's, that's been quite the mess, hasn't it?

I think it's been a real study in kind of how the media interprets these things and why people like you and me and so many of our colleagues in the space who are trying to like educate people on these topics, why that work is still so important? Because I think that most people, when they hear about kind of anything from space that's coming here, they think alien and they think potentially hostile, right? Like it sounds, it feels like a Hollywood movie. And I don't think we could ever totally rule out that something like that could happen, right? Like the universe is a very big place. Certainly, we can imagine from the way humans behave that there could be civilizations out there that could be, you know,

on a mission of conquest or destruction or something of that nature. I don't think we can, you know, entirely rule that out in good faith. But at the same time, we have so little. information right now about what this thing actually is that I don't think it's fair for us to like project all of our worst fears onto it. I think that a lot of that's just it's clickbait. It's how people like the New York Post and all these other places that are covering it get, you know, eyes to their website. But it's unfortunate because I think that it's it's a much more complex and nuanced situation. And Avi Loeb has talked about it in a much more complex and nuanced way. but of course they take like the scariest sound bite and then like just use that and unfortunately

you know and and it's kind of a new thing that we're actually this aware. I don't know about you but when I was growing up I had this feeling that like if an asteroid was coming or a ship or like that somehow we like knew that this would happen and I think I'm only really becoming aware in the last few years that this is actually very new technology. So we don't actually know how often stuff like this happens. This could this stuff could happen all the time and it's only in the few years that we've been paying attention because we just had a mua a few years ago. So I think we just need to like wait from our data before we freak out. Yeah.

I think that's a good way to put it. And you're right, you know, being hyper aware of these things now because of the new technology like, you know, James Webb Telescope or whatever it might be that we're able to see deeper into the cosmos and notice these things. So you're right. And especially with the way that it's covered, do you think that stories like this have more of a negative effect now, or do you think overall, because the topic is being talked about in a general populace, that in a bigger picture, it has a more positive effect. I know it's

kind of weird these days. So what do you think about how all that plays together? I mean, I'm kind of a natural optimist. So I hope that what happens is that because we're getting more net eyeballs on things, on these ideas, that it's going to cause more people to have a curiosity and to dig deeper and to ask deeper questions. And so I do think that there's a lot of positivity to be found here. I think what's rough is just that as more and more people, like, become aware of ideas of non-human intelligence being a real possibility and, you know, UFOs and all of these things that unfortunately there's kind of like this delutive effect because you have these bigger outlets who have journalists who are like I'm sure very smart people but they're not educated on

this topic right and so what ends up going out to the public ends up being kind of a mess and so I mean it's there's good and bad to it but I'm hopeful that there's like enough people out there who are following some curiosity and maybe learning something they didn't know before speaking of which and actually this question just popped into my head and I didn't even have this one written down, but I'm glad you said that. Someone who recently voiced their curiosity that shocked the heck out of me was the vice president, was J.D. Vance, didn't expect it. I've never heard him.

Maybe I missed it, but I've never heard him express curiosity before into the UFO topic, and he did that recently on a podcast on a show. And it kind of got everybody talking like, wow, he actually said the vice president of the United States said that he's going to look into UFOs. when he has more time because he's really curious about it. What was your take on that? And do you think that anything comes from it at all? Or is it just this is kind of like a side quest for J.D. Vance and he's going to look at on his on his own time.

Yeah. I mean, it could be that he was just making an off the cuff comment. Like you can't, you can't roll that out. I'm always a little suspicious of anything that's coming from any administration, right? Because they're very aware that like everything that they see. say publicly becomes a sound bite. And so in some ways, I wonder if this wasn't like cracking the door open, like letting people know like, oh, hey, like we might look into this.

And so I mean, we'll have to wait and see. It could have just been a passing, it could have just been a passing comment for Vance or it could have been an indication that we're going to be hearing more from the White House. I think that not just with the UFO topic, but with the drones and with all kinds of other things that have happened, that there's more awareness. in the public than there ever has been. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Trump administration has some kind of a plan to address that.

Now, whether that they're going to be addressing that with like actual transparency or just kind of more of the same theater that we've seen, like I think it's probably the latter. But, you know, we can always, we can always hope that something might come of it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's kind of a wait and see. I did extend an invitation through tagging the VP on Twitter. I have, I have yet to hear back. so I'll keep everybody updated.

And if I get a reply, I'll be holding my breath for a while, I think. But when it comes to, again, some of the big things going on, when we look at something like more of a sign on the scientific end, the report that just came out within the past week from two great researchers who are talking about these, I guess, pre-Sputnik is the best way to put it, pre-Sputnik objects in space, and that they can prove that these objects were floating above the Earth in some type of formation before the first satellite Sputnik was ever put out into our orbit.

This was kind of a massive report that came out, Kelly, and you talk about the interstellar object getting all the attention about this possible hostile object coming towards Earth. This to me, and I'll get your take on it, this to me felt. like the bigger story and it isn't getting that mass media attention. What was your take? What was your reaction when you saw this come out that there could actually be scientific proof that there was these objects floating above Earth before we even put anything into space? I mean, I think it's fascinating.

The first I had heard of that was at the first Soul Symposium when Beatrice via Royal, I hope I'm saying that right. Yes, that's her. Yes. gave a presentation on this. I was very glued to my seat for that conversation because in particular, she was talking about this coinciding with a really famous UFO flap that happened in 1952 in Washington, D.C.

This was something that happened over a series of days. Thousands upon thousands of people saw multiple craft above Washington, D.C., and they had to hold the biggest press conference that they had had. since the end of World War II to kind of like calm the American people down. And of course they had some stupid explanation that didn't really make sense about how it was like space, like air trash or like bad radar returns or something like that. All of which like did not explain the fact that all these people on the ground saw these craft. And so, you know, I found it absolutely fascinating. I don't really know what to make of it.

I'm surprised as you are that people aren't at like taking the story up because it seems. to something was up there. Yeah. And we don't, we don't know what that was. And I think it deserves a lot more inquiry because it implies the presence of something that had the kind of technology that we had only kind of dreamed of at that point. And whether that means, you know, a human breakaway civilization that some people have theorized about or if it could be some kind of non-human intelligence originating either here

or elsewhere that has technology that was far beyond. But we had at the time, at the very least, it tells us that our sense of history and of what was possible at that particular time in the 1950s is wrong. It's just wrong. And I think that that deserves a lot more inquiry. Yeah, I would say.

I mean, the way I read into it, and maybe I'm completely reading into it the wrong way, but the way I read into it was it almost felt like she was describing a network of surveillance for lack of a better term satellites whatever these things actually are craft you know some type of advanced drone

that we didn't even know existed yet but it felt like it was describing and the way that these things kind of connected almost like a Starlink how Starlink connects now and like this net that's what it sounded like this was but back you know 70 years ago Do you think that's a good way to put it?

Yeah, I mean, it absolutely could be. I mean, I think it's tough. In some ways, like, we fall into that trap of, like, assuming that it's like things that we put up in space. Yeah. I think it's altogether possible. Like, it could be surveillance. I think that could make a lot of sense. And then what happened since then?

Like, did we start putting our satellites up and whoever they were was like, oh, crap, those apes have figured out. We've got to get our stuff out of here. You know, what did that look like? It's hard to know what that was, but it does make me think, you know, back into deep human history, the kind of fixation that early civilizations had on the night sky and how much more aware they were of certain, of the stars and of the constellations and all of that. I bet that earlier civilizations would have been more aware of that than maybe we were in like the 1950s. So it raises a lot of really interesting questions and I hope it gets more attention. Yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, it's just incredible to think about that these things could be,

it could have been floating over us and we're just now finding like actual scientific proof of that. It's really fascinating. I wonder, yeah, like you said, if we'll see some, you know, salacious headlines in the New York post about that. I guess we'll have to wait and see. But Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S. from household names like Death Wish Coffee, Brooke Linnon, and Kylie. But what if people haven't heard about your brand?

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I did want to ask you about you. And because I think what happens is sometimes, and I can kind of use myself as an example, though I'm not an experiencer. I look at myself more as an observer, right? I observe and I kind of make the commentary on it and talk to everybody about it. And maybe that's just my thing. I don't know because I've never had a real experience before. But you have. You are an experiencer.

And I think what gets lost sometimes when it comes to the UFO community is that when you have someone like yourself who has, you know, very well-known shows, whether it's what you do with Cosmosis, what you've done throughout the years with the UFO rabbit hole. I mean, it's, it kind of gets lost a little bit, I think, for people. Or maybe they just didn't know to begin with. So I want to ask you about you, about Kelly Chase, about your experiences. what led you into your interest in UFOs? What happened to you in your life that led you down this path? I mean, it's been a crazy ride. And before I say that, I just want to say that I have a lot of respect for people like you

and so many other people in the community who have come to this line of inquiry of asking what UFOs are and what non-human intelligences and what our relationship to them might be without having had an experience. because I don't think that I ever would have taken any of this seriously if I hadn't had this kind of like abrupt, intrusive experience on my, like experience come into my life. And I think that I give people a lot of credit because I think it's a real intellectual challenge for a lot of people to take this stuff seriously if they haven't dealt with it themselves. I was somebody who didn't take any of this seriously at all, which is kind of bizarre because I'd actually seen a UFO when I was a kid. I was 13 years old and I was at the Outer Banks in North Carolina with my family and I was sitting out on the porch one night. We had like an ocean front house and I grew up in the suburbs so we didn't have a lot of stars out there. And so, you know, I loved sitting out there because I could see all the stars.

And so I would sit out there every night. And one night I was sitting out there and I just had this idea pop into my head. It was almost a voice that said like if you, look up right now, you'll see a UFO. And I'd never thought about UFOs. I'd never had a thought like that before. And I looked up and there was this clear, bright, white light going across the sky that I thought was just a plane. But as soon as I kind of like locked my eyes onto it, it did two like really crazy fast, hard right hand turns and then just like went across the horizon, like, faster than anything I'd ever seen. And I went inside and I told my family. And of course,

they all just laughed at me and thought I was stupid. And so I just kind of like let it go. You know, I didn't know what I had seen. And I never forgot it, but I just kind of shoved it back into the back of my mind. And I never took it that seriously. But then in 2021, I was going to the Outer Banks with my family again. And we, and I had a week off. I'm not good at taking time off.

And I was like, well, I'm going back to this place. And I was suddenly just kind of clocking these stories. in the news because this was right before the first congressional UAP report came out from the UAP task force. And so I was like, well, that's weird. And so I thought, I'm going to spend this week at the Outer Banks figuring out what UFOs are. But I very, that didn't, didn't figure it out in a week. A work in progress. Right. We're still still working on that one. But I did get to a place where I recognized that like there was something real going on here and I didn't know what it was, that it was far stranger than I ever thought.

And after about three months of obsessing, I went down the rabbit hole hard. That's when my first podcast was called the UFO rabbit hole because I was just obsessed and I was reading everything I could get my hands on trying to figure this thing out. And I feel these things feel related to me. I feel like they must be. But one day I was sitting, it was actually. almost exactly four years ago. It was in August of 2021. I was sitting in my bedroom one day and I was just in the middle of my bed and I had crazy UFO books spread out all around me and I was getting

ready to spend a day just kind of like, you know, obsessing. And out of nowhere, I had an experience that's really hard to describe, but I can only really describe it as like being outside of space and time. Like all of a sudden I wasn't in my room anywhere anymore. I was somewhere. I was somewhere, else that was unlike anything I'd ever experienced, even in like my most powerful, like, psychedelic experiences. And I, I kind of had this understanding that I was supposed to, that all of my doubt and disbelief and all of that before was for a reason and that all of the skills that I had developed in my life were for a reason and that like my.

purpose in that moment was to start, and it sounds so stupid, but just to start a podcast. It's like I had this mystical experience. It told me to start a podcast. It always sounds so assinine. But that's the truth about what happened. And there's a lot more to it. There's an episode of mine called Through the Looking Glass that people want to hear more. It's hard to talk about because like our language is so stuck in space and time that to

describe an experience of being outside of space and time becomes really challenging. But long story short, I came out of that experience, a changed person with a completely different perspective on the world, on myself, a different set of values, and with this sense that this was the work I was supposed to be doing. I pretty soon after that, quit my corporate job. I had been a brand director for an e-com company, and I was very serious about that career. I walked away from it entirely, and this has been my kind of full-time job since. So, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it's profound as I think what comes across to me. I mean, to have an experience like that where you make, I mean, big life changes. It must have been extremely profound for you. Do you look back on that and think to yourself now four years later? Do you think to yourself, oh, my gosh, what did I do? I can't believe I walked away from this. And this is, you know, I'm doing this full time instead of, you know, working on that career. Or do you look at it and say to yourself, yeah, now I see why.

I actually left that and I'm doing this full time. Does it make sense now four years later? Yeah. I mean, it's kind of both, right? Like there are definitely moments where I just step back and look at everything that's happened and how much I've changed and how much my life has changed. And certainly my corporate job was far more lucrative than this will probably ever be. But I and it seems crazy to me.

But at the same time, like I am so much happier. I'm so much more fulfilled. I've met some of like the best friends I've ever had in my life. And I love the work that I do. And I love the challenge of it. And I love the mystery of it. And I can really ultimately only be grateful that it happened, even if it's very weird, very, very weird.

Do you feel like you've got an answer on why that happened yet, Kelly? Do you feel like you know why that happened to you? Or do you feel like it still hasn't been revealed? I'm not sure. I think about that all the time. I certainly think that I'm a more productive and useful person doing the kind of work that I do now. You know, I get to hear from people who have, especially experiencers, I think, who have benefited from the work that I've done, who have felt less alone, who have been able to find community. And those kinds of things are really deeply meaningful to me. And I don't think the kind of work that I was doing before was, ever going to be meaningful in that way. As far as like where this is all heading or if it's heading anywhere, like I don't, I don't know. And it does feel yeah, I'm not sure. It's a, I think about it all the time though. Well, it's interesting because I feel like your story is so relatable to a lot

of other experiences because I've heard like even though it's very personal, it feels like others could relate to it and the fact that they hear you talk about those things, being outside of space and time, hearing a message in your head, you know, telling you do something specific. And someone hears that and they say, oh my gosh, that happened to me. And I've never spoken about it before. I can't believe it's happened to somebody else. Have people come up to you before and told you that? Yeah.

I mean, the craziest thing to me is it took me a long time to tell my story. And when I put out that episode, the Through the Looking Glass episode, and told that story publicly for the first time, I was terrified. Like, I had so many friends in the experiencer community like Jay Christopher King and Mike Clowland and others who were fielding, like very panicked phone calls for me in the lead up to releasing that episode. And because I knew how crazy it sounded. And I was really afraid of losing my credibility. I had built this podcast around this idea of like, you know, being kind of like grounded. And, you know as objective as anyone can be and like you know i that was and i took that reputation very

seriously and i valued it and it was scary for me to put myself out there and be like listen this thing that sounds insane and that the the me i was even a couple years ago would have heard this and been like this chick is crazy it was really scary to put that out there but after it came out in the like weeks and months that followed and still to this day i got literally thousands of emails from people saying, I've never heard anybody express it before, but I had a, I had something like that happened to me. And, and that was so beautiful. That was such an incredible experience because I also had felt really lonely and really crazy and really isolated. And so, like, as much as people thanked me, like, I could only thank them for sharing their stories with me,

because it helped me also kind of find a level of acceptance with it that I hadn't had before. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. This is going to sound like such a crazy general question, but I ask it for a reason. What do you think this is? And I ask that because, again, I know, it's like, okay, where do I start? But I ask it that way because I have actually heard other details like yours from other experiencers who have just spoken to privately. And I think that's the thing that I find fascinating personally as I hear your story. I think these details you're talking about, I've heard and have never related them on

UAP before. I haven't had these people as guests yet. But these are details that I've heard and you talk about hearing a message in your head to, you know, look up, you're going to see something or start a podcast, being outside of space and time. The amazing thing to me is that it's not unique. that other people have gone through these things. So as someone wants to come to you and say, oh, well, Kelly, you know,

maybe you had food poisoning or you were so, maybe you were too stressed, or you were so enamored with the topic that this was all psychosomatic. Okay, that's all fine and dandy. But what about all the other people have had the same thing? So what do you think this is with all that in mind?

Where does it come from? That's the big question. isn't it? Obviously, I don't know, but I can give you, like, my impressions. And I will say that I, something that really concerns me about where the conversation is going in uphology is how much it's been dominated by the disclosure narrative. A disclosure narrative that's coming to us almost exclusively through the intelligence community. People, a lot of people really don't like it when I say that, because there's a lot of heroes that have been built up. But, but the reality is that the, if you look it what we're being told through kind of the disclosure narrative and the authorized channels,

and then you stack it up against actual experiencer data, the studies that have been done, the encounters that have been recorded, and when you talk to actual experiencers about what they have experienced, far more people are having experiences that sound like mine than that comport in any way with what we're hearing from people who are current or former. members of the government. And so I'm very suspicious of that narrative. I think that whatever we're dealing with is probably very complex. I'm not someone who thinks that it's entirely positive. You know, I also have very close friends who are abductees and that sort of thing and people who have had really deeply negative experiences and I would never want to discount that. But I think

that whatever is going on is far more complex and far more meaningful and deep than what is being kind of then the stuff that's kind of dominating the conversation. I think that there is some kind of an intelligence that at this very critical moment in human history is reaching out to us and is trying to help us and trying to wake us up to the nature of our reality and to the nature of what it means to be a human being. I think that we're far more powerful than we give ourselves credit for. I think that things like remote viewing and psychic abilities and things that are starting to come into the conversation are really only just a tip of the iceberg in terms of human potential. And I think that there's a lot of interest from powers that be to kind of shape and

corrupt the narrative so that we're spending all of our time talking about government intrigue and like hostile invasions and all sorts of crap that's kind of irrelevant to keep us from paying attention to the thing that they're most afraid of, which would be humanity awakening to its own innate power. And that's, that's just my opinion. And, you know, my opinion changes all the time. It'll change again. But where I am right now, that's how I see things. Yeah. Wow. Very interesting. Hey, guys. So before we get back into the conversation, I just want to talk about something that affects all of us. And it's scary. Starting something new, right? It's hard. And it is kind of terrifying. Because you think about all the work that goes into it. Are you going to be able to succeed? What new challenges

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Get your Southern California business protected at Guard. Andhr.com. There's a few things there that I wanted to touch on, actually, that you brought off. And I'll start with what you were speaking about when it comes to the intelligence community. And some of the chatter that's out there, some of the figures that are out there, it feels like, I don't know how put, without the sounding negative, it feels like there is a sense of tribalism when it comes to the UFO community. And I don't think I'm speaking out of turn when I say that. And I don't mean it in a, you know, pointing the. finger um accusatory type of way to anybody but that's again as an observer that's which is how i

paint myself it feels like there is i'm on this side you're on that side we can't have this discussion because you trust this person i trust that person do you do you see the same thing and how do you think and how much does that hurt the overall discussion when it comes to just trying to get to the same goal yeah no i think that's Absolutely accurate. And I think it's by design, to be honest. I did an episode recently called UFO Narrative Wars, where I go into this much more deeply, if people want to check that out.

But I've spent a lot of time over the last couple of years trying to understand what intelligence and particularly counterintelligence tradecraft looks like, and particularly within kind of small fringe communities like the UFO community, trying to understand what's happening right now through the lens of like what has happened in the past. And something that I think happens a lot is I compare what's going on to pro wrestling. And there's this there's this idea in pro wrestling, K-Fave, which is basically the idea that the audience and the performers both kind of engage in the suspension of disbelief where we all just pretend that what we're seeing is real.

And then like that creates this kind of like emergent, magical thing where people, it starts to feel real, right? And I think that that's a lot of what we're dealing with, is that, except that I don't think people have that awareness in the way that when, like, you sit down to watch a pro wrestling match, like, you know it's not real. But I think that people have forgotten and have become way too trusting of the intelligence community. I'm not trying to vilify them. I'm just trying to be like really honest. I think we need to be honest with ourselves about the fact that like these people's job is not to be transparent with you. It's not to tell you the truth. And not only is that not their job, their job is usually the exact opposite. If they

actually have any awareness of or knowledge of secret programs within the government, they are legally required to lie about it. And so, like, we've kind of turned the entire euphological discussion into a question and answer session with the very people who are absolutely not going to tell us the truth. And this kind of K-Fabe thing, like they take advantage of it by creating heroes and creating villains, you know, and they, they very publicly kind of go at each other, and you've got to choose sides. And they end up manipulating people by doing that because you start to identify with a certain person, with a certain hero. And then you're defending them online. And now, like, your personality and your identity and your community and your friendships are

wrapped up in the fact that you support and believe, you know, this person or this person and this other person you think is a liar. And the way that that is used to manipulate the way that we view events and the ideas that we're willing to consider or the ideas that we're willing to not consider is extremely powerful. And so I've certainly lost friends through this whole process of being more honest about what I see happening because some people really hate it. But like my arms will always be open to those people.

I'm not angry at people who don't agree with me or who don't. see it the way that I do. And I hope that, you know, we can all start to just have kind of a more mature and adult view of what's going on because the intelligence community, they're not bad people. In many cases, they're patriots. They're doing what they believe is right. They're trying to protect the American people. In many situations, I think they're hostages themselves. Because once you're in, like, once you're read in, you can't get out. You can't be like, oh, actually, that doesn't sound good or that's immoral or that doesn't comport with my ethics, so I'm going to opt out.

You can't do that. Once you're in, you're in. And so, like, this isn't me judging those people or casting a moral judgment. It's just me saying, like, you guys, we've got to get real about the fact that, like, these people aren't here to tell you the truth. Huh. Yeah. And make up your mind on who those people might be.

I know I'm not going to ask you to throw anybody under the bus. Sure. But it's really interesting to consider because. when you think about it where you have all these different narratives, right? You talk about narrative wars. And you have some people siding with this and some people siding with that. It's like where do we go, kind of. And then everything kind of gets shuffled up and lost in the fray.

So if that is a technique, why do you think that's being done by anybody who's doing it? I mean, what are they, which secret are they trying to protect, do you think? Are they trying to protect technology? Are they trying to protect the overall secret of other life and what that would lead to? Why go through all the trouble of going on podcasts, doing interviews, going in national news, you know, maybe even going in front of Congress, I don't know. And saying different things if it's for a particular mission. Why is that mission so important, do you think? That's a great question.

You know, obviously I don't know, and I can only speculate. I do think that a lot of this is about secret technology. A number that always blows me away, but that also really helps give me perspective on these things, is that for any of these kind of secret black budget programs with technology that we probably can't even, we'd be very surprised if we do our government had this technology, like those sorts of things.

Imagine how many billions, if not trillions of dollars, get spent on those sorts of projects. Each one of those programs then budgets six to seven times the amount of the actual program for security and counterintelligence. And so they have functionally unlimited resources to create essentially an alternate reality for us. There of people who are going on podcasts, who are in the news, who are working. at universities who are working on scientific projects, who are podcasters, all kinds of things,

right, to basically cover up whatever it is that they're trying to cover up. So even guessing at what it is that they're actually trying to cover up becomes really difficult. I think because of the sheer scale of it, we have to assume it's some kind of technology. But like I said, I also think that a major part of the secret here is that we aren't alone, that there's some kind of non-gearrow human intelligence that at least some faction of it, I believe, is trying to help the human race. And I also think it has a lot to do with our own potential. And I think that that's what they're trying to wake us up to, is that like we are far more powerful than we know and that we're being controlled in ways that we haven't even considered. And maybe these people know that we are,

but that we do have that power within. It's, it's dangerous for us to know. Again, speculation, but it's very, yeah, I don't know. This is very very intriguing to to, to, to consider. On that note, and then I'll leave this alone, Kelly, but I do find this pretty interesting. You've been vocal about feeling like you were kind of been blackballed in a way from some of these conversations or from some of the, I guess you can say conversations, circles, groups, I don't know how you want to put it, that there has been some work against you behind the scenes. Why do you feel the way? What have you seen that leads you to believe that there has been different things in the background that it where people have been maybe turned against you in some ways

or worked against you um i don't know if i would totally characterize it that way i think that there are there are there are a lot of people who have taken what i've said and kind of interpreted it in that way because it kind of serves um because they feel that that's been done to them and so they like take little sound bites of what i've said and then they're like see it's also happening to Kelly and I don't engage with it because I think those people are just like engagement farmers and trolls and I I only amplify their message by engaging so I don't. But but I will say that I have removed myself in many ways from the conversation. I show up to certain events because I there are people I want to meet there or I find it interesting. But you know, a lot of the people I don't really, I've never really had members of the intelligence community.

at least not knowingly, at least not open members of the intelligence community on my podcast. I haven't reached out to those people. I get contacted by people who claim to be members of the intelligence community all the time. I do not engage with them. I feel like it's interesting to me that people that just like pretend like I don't exist, but I'm kind of pretending they don't exist either. So it's not, I think it's kind of a two-way street. I haven't necessarily felt like there are people who are intention.

working against me, but there are, you know, in, in 2023, I've been on a bit of a hiatus last couple years while I was working on other media projects. But in 2023, my original podcast, the UFO rabbit hole was in the top 1% most followed and the most in top 5% most shared podcasts globally. It was the, it was the biggest UFO podcast in the world in 2023. And the fact that like at that point when I was still kind of had rose colored glasses on that people were not answering my emails had no interest in coming on my show, I think kind of says a lot. But, you know, I don't have any sour grapes about that. I don't really want to engage with members of the intelligence community, and I'm happy to be left alone. Fair enough. Yeah, I wanted to put that out

there because I know there has been a lot of talk about it. So I wanted to get your take on it. I appreciate that. Yeah, absolutely. So that said, though, what do you feel just kind of switching gears a little bit here. There's so much out there. Like we said at the start, right? There's so much to pay attention to. Sometimes things fall through the cracks for us where it's like, I really want to talk about that, but I got to get to this, or this is more pressing, or I have this guest to talk about that. What do you think gets overlooked? And maybe not even just within the past year, but a story, just in general, maybe it's from like 80 years ago, maybe it's from 2,000 years ago, I don't know, or maybe it's from two weeks ago. But a story that comes to mind that you've come across, you've read

about you've done research on that to you feels incredibly important, but you feel just gets totally overlooked and gets lost in the shuffle. I mean, I think there's so much. The thing that, you know, like I was saying, like, I'm very concerned about how disclosure is entirely kind of taken over the narrative. And something that is getting buried in all of this is the history of this field. You know, there's a lot of people who have only been here since 2017. and after, I'm one of them.

So this isn't like, there's nothing wrong with being new to this field. And there's so much information. Right, right. It's most of us. It's most of us. And there's, but there's so much new information coming out all the time that it kind keeps people from looking backward. And there's so much history that's just been kind of forgotten or erased or, you know,

people as much, listen, I'm a podcaster, you're a podcaster, but people are overly reliant on podcasts. People need to be reading books. Because there is so much information that's getting lost. In particular, you know, things that come to mind or our Jacques Valet has his forbidden science series, which is like literally his journals going back decades. But the most recent one, Forbidden Science 6, is I believe from the years 2011 to 2019. So what you're looking at is like his record of everything that was kind of going on up to kind of the infamous 2017 New York Times article.

And he's talking about people who are still active, still doing the podcast circuit. And the things that are in there, if you have the context, are shocking. It's like wild how much he's actually willing to throw people under the bus. And nobody's looking at it. Like I feel like people talk about, as having a conversation with people the other day, even like Lou Alizando's book that came out, which I feel like would have been the one piece of required reading. It's pretty evident people didn't read it because there's an insane amount of information. information in there. My dear friend, the researcher, Daniel Elizondo, I will go to the bat to say,

go to bat to say that he is absolutely our generation's Richard Dolan. He is a brilliant researcher. And he and his writing partner, the Hermetic Penetrator, which is a great name, wrote a free PDF out there that's called Loose Threads that really kind of details the beginnings of what we're seeing now, going back to kind of the precursor to ASAP, which was the advanced theoretical physics working group and the, like, and what all the people who are involved in that were doing in the 1970s and the 1980s. And it's very, very, very revealing. And this is people like Hal Putoff, John Alexander, Eric Davis. None of this is quite what it appears to be. And people, because we've forgotten our history, we've been fed kind of this alternate version of events and who these people

are and what they're all about and what they want. And I really encourage to go back, people to go back and do their reading and to make their own judgments about what they think is going on because there's an insane amount of information out there that would indicate that what we're seeing right now is essentially theater. Yeah. Wow. I mean, you fit a lot of great stuff into there. One of the things that caught my ear amongst everything else was what you mentioned about Jacques who I think is just maybe maybe the way I put it anyway is like a UFO philosopher I mean the man is just a a brilliant mind what caught you I'm wondering just some examples about what caught your attention some of those journals if you will the forbidden science when he spoke about

different people that when you go back and read it and get the context and put it to now you're like oh my gosh like this guy had it on the head it on the nose 10 years ago um again Just what you read. Just what you read. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, this is just what I read. I am just reporting on what I read.

Listen, I am friends, dear friends with Whitley Strieber. And I was absolutely honored for a year and a half. I was the guest host on his podcast. If Whitley wants to rebut this, I'd be more than happy to hear what he has to say. But Jacques details a conversation with Whitley where Whitley indicates that he was, working with the American intelligence community, as far back as like a few years previous to his 1986

abduction experience that he wrote about in communion. I found that to be very surprising. I don't want to draw big conclusions based on that because I think someone could, but like, you know, I want to be fair, but like that was, that to me was a shocking revelation. He also, I'll probably get the quotation wrong, so I don't want to overstate it, but people should, you can, in any of these books, you can go to the index and look up people's names.

But he does talk about Leslie Kane in the kind of lead up to the 2017 New York Times article and says something about something related to her being interested, along with a few other people, in potentially spinning up kind of a new project blue book. like these are things that are in the book so I really feel like people should read it yeah that's very interesting what is and I'll get you on a couple more Kelly before I get you out of here today but I've really enjoyed this conversation been a lot of great things so but before we're done

I wonder there's a lot of stuff in again like a million times I said there's so much to cover and there's a lot of things in my head or on my list or in my notes that I say one day I'm going to get to this. And a lot of the times we end up pushing things to the back burner. What do you experience when it comes to that? What are some of the things that for you are still kind of simmering on the back burner

where you say, okay, I'm going to get to this one day and I'm really excited to do it, but I haven't been able to do it yet. Oh, gosh. There's one thing that I've been talking about for years that people are constantly asking me about. And it just keeps getting pushed to the back burner because it's, it's, it's, it's, It sounds so silly. But I have been for a long time working on a deep dive about aquatic humanoids.

And like I find that very deeply fascinating. And, you know, there are some really interesting cases. One at Lake Baikal in Russia, which is like, I believe the deepest freshwater lake in the world. I'm hoping I'm getting that right. It's some kind of most something in the world. I think it's the deepest. And it, where, you know, Russian divers saw these things, aquatic humanoids underwater. Yeah.

And some were injured by them. It's a wild story. It's a crazy story. And, you know, Tim Galadette has published a white paper with Seoul that talks about a joint operation between the U.S. Navy and Canada, basically, and off the coast of Nova Scotia that they saw. basically a craft on the floor of the ocean and that there were humanoid beings, not humans, working on this craft on the outside. Allegedly there's a video of it, but of course, you know, we haven't seen that. But in all of that's just anecdotal.

But for somebody like Tim Gallaudet to be putting that in a white paper, I find very interesting. And there's a lot more to it, but I've gone really deep with that one. And I will eventually release it. I find it really fascinating. But it is so much of it is kind of like speculative and putting together. different pieces from here and there. It's kind of like a fun pulpy one that I want to do at some point. But because it's kind of a little less solid than some of the other things I'm working on and more speculative, I inevitably kind of push it off because I'm like, I'll get to that later.

But I know people, there are people out there who want me to finish it. So one of these days. That's awesome. It's not going to be like a George R.R. Martin type thing, right? Where it takes you like 20 years to write the conclusion to Game of Thrones. I sure hope not. I sure hope not. But we'll see. That's how it starts, right? Right, exactly. That's really cool. Actually, I love that subject myself, so that's very cool.

And I'll get you out here on this. You mentioned Kay Faber earlier, so I have to ask you, are you a closet wrestling fan? No, no, I'm not, actually. My husband's a fan, but I'm not. Because I was going to say, then, we're going to have to do a separate show just on wrestling, because I'm a huge wrestling nerd, actually, which I don't talk about it a ton, but I grew up watching it and all the characters, all the, all the gimmicks, all the guys. I still watch it today with my kids.

So I was like, wait a minute. Oh, you should. Oh, I love it. I'm like, wait a minute. Kelly and I need to maybe start a wrestling podcast here going on whenever you talk about that. I love it. Yeah, have you talked to Ryan Sprague? Sprag is a fan.

I should. I actually saw him write something about that recently. I'm like, oh, interesting. Okay. So maybe I'll get him on here one of these days and we can do a little co-off there. But this has been awesome, Kelly. I've had a lot of fun with this. I'm glad I got to get you on the show officially

since we spoke back at Contact in the Desert a couple of months ago. And I really enjoyed this. I hope you have too. So before we go, where can everybody find you? What are the things you're working on? What can people look forward to? So you can find the docu-series that I worked on.

I wrote an executive produced. That you can find that anywhere. Amazon, Apple TV, YouTube, anywhere. It's called Cosmosis. UFOs in a new reality. My podcast also called Cosmosis. You can find basically anywhere podcasts are available. We've got a ton of great new content coming up. Jay and I are kind of taking the television format and I'm going to start kind of pushing in that direction with the podcast. We're going to get a lot more kind of creative with what we've been doing. And I'm really excited for

people to see where that's all headed. And yeah. So you can find links to literally any of my work at cosmosis.media. Awesome. Kelly Chase, thanks so much for doing this. Really glad to have you on UAP. Appreciate it. Thanks, Stephen. That was a lot of fun.

I was so happy to finally to be able to do that with Kelly. Again, that was in the planning stages for a while. So happy to be able to get that one out there and have that conversation. And I look forward to speaking with her again in the future. I'm sure we will. But that was really interesting. I mean, there was so much there that really caught my attention. One of them was what she was saying about.

Whitley Streber, at least what she was reading about Whitley Streber in Jacques Folle's book in one of his books of the forbidden science. And I've never heard that claim before that Whitley Streber was a, you know, a government operative news to me. I don't have no idea if it's true, but just to hear that claim coming from, you know, Jacques Follet's journals there in the Forbidden Sciences was something that definitely struck me. You know, I didn't get that feeling when I spoke to Whitley,

but maybe that's just because he's really good. I don't know. I'm not trying to slander anybody. I think Whitley's a great guy when I got to meet him at contact in the desert a couple months ago. So I have no idea. But what I do know is that he's had a lot of contributions to this community for the past, you know, 30 years or so, 30 years plus. So who knows? But those are the claims.

That surprised me. I never heard that claim about him before. but that was something that definitely caught me off guard that was noteworthy, if nothing else for sure. And you heard me allude to it a little bit with Kelly when she was talking about her experience there. And I said, you know, there are some people that have spoken to behind the scenes who have never been on the show.

And then I said, yet, who have had similar experiences to what you just described. And I said yet because some of those experiences you're going to hear about during UAP investigates. I am almost done with that. I'm producing the final episode as we speak, the season finale, if you will. And I have to tell you, this is just a little bit of a, you know, behind the scenes. I didn't expect it to turn out the way that it has so far.

What I mean by that is it's a lot of the stuff I ended up coming across and detailing and really kind of documenting has been quite unsettling. I'm not going to lie, this has almost become kind of scary in a couple of ways. when you do get to hear it when this does release and I look forward to having this come out hopefully soon but it's just so funny that when sometimes you start a project with something in mind you have

at least a certain vision of what you think it might be or what you're trying to what you're going to try to make it turn into and this just ended up taking a life of its own and that happens sometimes with some different episodes that even just

of just regular UAP as it were that I produced in the past. I have an idea when I start and it turns into something completely different because that's where the story and the research took me. And that happened here, but on a much larger scale. It's, I mean, like, it's shocked me. I have driven home before. This, again, really behind the scenes here,

I've driven home before after hours of production on a particular episode of UAP investigates. And on my drive home, I literally just kind of sit there sometimes. with like the radio off and I'm driving in silence and I think to myself what are people going to say when they hear this? I'm the only one who's heard this so far because I'm producing it. I'm putting it together. And I've thought about that before just in my own personal reflections when I say to myself what I like I don't know what the reaction is going to be to this but I hope it's a positive one but it's just it's stuff that even I think about in my own time where I'm like, Dang, that's really wild.

Like what I ended up finding it out and putting it into these episodes. So I look forward to hearing UAP Investigates. Again, that's super personal. That's really behind the scenes of just what I've gone through in the production of this and making this in the first nine episodes. And now starting production as we speak on the season finale, the final 10th episode of the first season of UAP Investigates. But yeah, I will let you know when that comes up,

out so that way you can hear it for yourself and you'll you'll find out where I'm coming from on that. I think maybe your reaction will be different than mine. We'll see how that all turns out, but I am definitely looking forward to getting that out there, so I'll let you know the premier date of UAP investigates once that comes around. But aside from all that, I really do hope you enjoyed this time with Kelly Chase and so much more to come on UAP in the future. Some really great discussions coming up and who knows what else is going to pop up because there seems to be like Kelly and I said something new every single day. But you know what? One thing we do know for sure, I'll cover it. I'll do my best to come on here and tell you about it and give you all the details and try to figure it out together right here on UAP. So until then, make sure to continue to download the show, subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts and all the big platforms, Apple, Spotify, wherever you like to search for that. Follow along on social media. I'll have some of this stuff up on YouTube. I mean to put more up on YouTube. I say that every single time on like a broken record, but I do plan on doing that. So if you want to follow along there. It's at UA podcast on YouTube and at UA

podcast 850 on TikTok and Twitter. And you can reach out to me there with any direct messages as well. I'm getting a lot of messages these days, so feel free if you want to add to that. By all means, you can check it out on any of those social platforms or at UAPpodcast.com. You can send me

messages or S-Deneru-A-P at gmail.com, which is S-D-I-E-N-R-U-A-P at g-mel.com. I read them all and I respond to the at some point, I will respond, I promise. So as quickly as I possibly can. But that is all for now.

So on that note, thank you again for everything, for all the continued support for the show, for what I do here. I'm going to keep doing my best to keep it going. So until next time, it is Stephen Deiner here saying, be well. Thanks again so much. And I'll talk to you again soon right here on UAP,

the Unidentified Alien Podcast.