UAP Unidentified Alien Podcast - UAP EP 152 The Tic Tac Conundrum - Proof that the UFO is NOT Man Made?

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

Coming off his eye opening reports about the unidentified Alaskan object shootdown, Anthony Williams rejoins Stephen Diener for part two of their conversation as they follow up on that and cover the latest speculation regarding the interstellar object. And you might view some situations of man made tech vs alien tech differently after you hear Anthony's unique perspective on it. All that and more right now...See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It's about continuing the story. Explore your options at kingsley manor.org, a nonprofit month-to-month senior community within the Front Porch family. Yes, welcome back to UAP. Stephen Dean are back with you here, as always, for episode 152 of the Unidentified Alien Podcast. Happy to be back here for part two, this conclusion of my conversation with military intelligence analyst and insider Anthony Williams. Always appreciate his time when we get to have him on. And just such a unique perspective and the information that he's able to give that we really get, we don't get anywhere else, really. And so I'm always so appreciative for him to come on to the show here so we can learn all these new things.

And we did that in part one, and we're going to continue in part two. And pick up where we left off here as soon as we start off after our conversation about Sean Duffy and NASA and wanting to be read into the alien briefing. Sean Duffy's words, not mine, the acting director of NASA, we went into the interstellar object. And what is that? Of course, we've all heard about that. That became international news. I mean, that crossed over to popular culture.

So I ask Anthony Williams about that. What has he heard about it? What is his take on it? You know, as far as Avi Loeb's theories, about it 40% that it's an alien craft coming toward Earth in the next few months. It's wild stuff, and that story still has legs. So I did want to get his opinion on that. when we recorded this interview.

We do get into his thoughts on it. I'm glad I got to ask him about this. His thoughts on the current state of the whistleblower environment, the people, the witnesses, the whistleblowers who want to come out, who are thinking about coming out and haven't done it yet. And I wanted to get his opinion just on that state of mind, right? Is it worth it? Should they do it?

And so we get into that a little bit, which I thought was important to do. And then calling back from part one, I asked him some follow-up questions regarding some of the sightings that he spoke about, the unreported pilot sightings and the shootdown of that object over Alaska. I wanted to get some clarifying questions in there about what was seen, what was reported, what might have been recovered. So some of that was pretty striking, especially when he starts to talk about the coordinates and the grid that they use to kind of map out where things are.

Again, some of these points I would never even think of because I've never been in those positions, you know, military-wise, but he has. And he points something out about how they use a grid for mapping and how it was used for this shoot-down after this object was shot down over Alaska, the famous shoot-down there, that we still don't really know much about what was taken down. But Anthony brings up some really valid points that I never considered. So some follow-up questions in those situations, and a lot more. It's all in here. And the conclusion of my conversation with Anthony Williams this part two on episode

152 of UAP so enjoy that and stick around for some final thoughts but until then here you go another thing that's been brought up a lot actually has been the Atlas Interstellar object have you been able to keep up on this oh yeah yeah

obviously this has been one of those crossover stories when it comes to what was being spoken about in the UAP community has crossed over into the mainstream We saw that with the drones. It was probably the last time it happened. And now this has really crossed over into the mainstream, into pop culture even, because of the headline that reads, Harvard professor says aliens might be on their way to Earth. Now, we know that Harvard professor means Avi Loeb.

And he's been everywhere on every single show and news network. It was actually funny because he was on with me a few months ago. And I emailed him a few weeks ago, and I said, hey, I'd love to get you back on and talk. about this and he's like, I am absolutely swamped right now. We're going to have to like reconvened down the road because he's just been everywhere. And that's the thing is that when you have that headline, you're able to make this like a sexy story. And he even just said recently, I think on Newsmax or NewsNation, I think it was News Nation, where he said, I'm putting it out a 40% chance of an alien craft and not a comet. So what's being, and he's the only one that's saying this as far as

someone in his position, an astrophysicist, you know, Harvard professor, when he has all these titles. What's been the conversation in your world as far as intelligence is concerned when it comes to this, this interstellar object? Yeah. So, you know, not my lane for sure. You know, I deal with terrestrial threats, not, you know, extraterrestrial threats. But I've been following it. And, you know, Hubble captured some really good imagery of it, at least, We've been shown imagery that we have been told us from Hubble. I'm inclined to think, you know, I have to be careful with my own bias, right? Because I want it to be real because I've seen so much stuff that is just so unexplainable that, you know,

it just there's no way everything that we're seeing that this phenomenon is, is, you know, current human advancement. Just in my mind, that's not, there's just no way. And we could do a whole other two hours on all of the evidence I've seen that supports my personal belief that that's the case. But if the Hubble imagery is real and other experts that have looked at it, it appears as though it's probably a massive comment on a millionth of a percent chance trajectory and timing passing by all this stuff. Yeah. And it's so rare that it's going to fly by what it's going to fly by coming in. Even the speed has been explained, you know, when these objects. And I think you and I have talked about the fact that, you know, when you're looking at, you know, objects in orbit, you know, low Earth orbit, medium Earth orbit, the farther away from Earth you get, gravity is still working, but your orbit slows down, which is why in geosynchronous space, the satellite looks like it's parked.

because it is orbiting Earth at the same rate that the Earth rotates. So it's really precious real estate up there. Low Earth orbit, you know, you have Elon Musk's Starlink satellites moving at, you know, 7.8 kilometers a second. Wow. They're moving fast. So, you know, as these interstellar objects move past a sun or move past a big object, they get that whip effect and pick up speed. And it's been confirmed that this object from where it's coming from is quite old.

It's older than our solar system. So chances are this thing is passed by things over, you know, a billion years or however old they say it is and it is just picked up speed. That's why it's traveling so fast. But the chance that it could be extraterrestrial and a craft coming to our backyard are not zero. Yeah. The chances of that are not zero. And, you know, Avi Loeb is clearly smarter on the subject than I am. But I also have to check his bias too, right?

Like he's a brilliant researcher and even people that don't blow. believe that this is an alien craft. Even some of those scientists cite Avi Loeb and the work he's done. So he's very well respected. He has his opinion and he has it based on percentages and odds. And that's not nothing either. If you look at how Vegas casinos bus people for cheating, you know, one of the easiest ways to spot a cheat is percentage of wins.

When the percentages equal and abnormality, that tends to indicate something different. And that's where I think Avi Loeb is. coming from, you know, just the rare percentage and chance that this is, you know, going down this way just doesn't lend to anything being natural in his mind. That doesn't mean he's right. It doesn't mean he's wrong. I'm definitely not the expert to say that. I do think there's a case to be made that if the Hubble imagery is correct, if some of these other analytical looks at this thing are correct.

It's probably just a big, massive rock, you know, racing through our solar system. But that doesn't mean that Avi Loeb's not correct. You know, the real tell will be when this thing comes in, if we have the ability to get some imagery of it, to get some sensing data of it, it's going to be moving, you know, so fast that, you know, it's like trying to stick a magnet on a Ferrari ripping by. you know like like good good luck you're gonna throw it up and hope it lands but um yeah just her a bullet would be a better example than a Ferrari you know it's gonna be it's gonna be it's gonna be flying by so um wow you know i think i think time's gonna tell and and time's not that far away it's this fall

that this thing looks like it's gonna enter so uh the proof is gonna be in the pudding i would personally i would look for certain things that if it is if it is extraterrestrial in nature and there are some accusations that it means us harm, so that means it has an interest in Earth, I would expect to see a change in velocity. I would expect that this thing slows down as it enters our solar system and approaches whatever key terrain it wants to see. Or as it disappears behind the sun and is masked, it reemerges somewhere. But I don't think it would be interested in Earth, Mars, Venus, Saturn, Jupiter, any of these planets that supposedly it's going to pass by, and that it does a quantum blast by and doesn't slow down to look at what it's interested in. To me, that would look more like a space debris, comet, asteroid, whatever, passing by.

and just just by chance happened to hit that perfect lineup Yeah and that's right That that's a trajectory at which it's moving It's been one of the big red flags Is there any concern though Like behind the scenes have you seen any concern from people

Within government or military like hey this This could be something that we need to keep an eye on Because it might be a threat of some sort Or is it just kind of like a passing glance Well I can't say what's happening in the the classified realm with that. But what I will say is overtly, we have military, you know, defense groups that work with

civilian institutions that track, you know, objects that have the potential of colliding with Earth that are on some sort of trajectory that are going to fly by near. And so, yeah, for sure, there's concern that this thing could, you know, they want to be able to rule out, is that on any trajectory coming anywhere near Earth. And this one, you know, quite honestly, where it's coming from is impressive, but it's still going to be really far away from Earth. Like it's not right now, there's no concern of any trajectory actually impacting Earth. As far as classified programs, looking into what it might be or any sort of intent or anything else, I don't know about that. But I do know that our government absolutely, and most people are aware at this point, they, you know, ever since the movie,

Armageddon, it got really popular, but how we look for these objects that can potentially impact Earth and cause damage to our civilization here on the planet. So that's not new. I know it's been looked at that way. And it's been determined that, no, this is not going to come anywhere near impacting Earth. Right. Okay. Well, that's good news, at least.

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and the sounds of Hawaii around you. You almost forget you're on a plane. And that's the point, because when you fly with Hawaiian Airlines, it's hard to tell where your flight ends and vacation begins. Hawaii starts here. I wanted to bring up something again that you and I were speaking about off the air, which was, and I brought up this email before on the show, it was an email I got from a listener named Paul, and he was an executive in the aerospace defense industry, if you will,

And he brought in some really great context about why he thinks the Tic Tac, that we, you know, some of the Tic Tacs we spoke about earlier, could not have been Lockheed technology or really any other company. And the way that he approached it was, and again, you and I spoke about this and I wanted to get your take here on the show, the way he approached it was just logistically speaking. You would have to jump through so many hoops to have the testing of the viability of something like that. and it would have had to happen probably like 30 years ago. And the fact that nothing has come out about it since then, there was just, there was a lot of hoops that you would have to jump through that he mentioned in that email.

Do you remember most of that message when we spoke about it? Oh, yeah. No, absolutely. And, you know, when you and I talked offline and you read me that email before it was on the show even, that guy's spot on. He absolutely gets it. You're talking about the 1970s when the Internet's not a thing. We have electronic transferring of data,

but there's no, you know, the only research being able to be done is in libraries and books. And, you know, you wanted to find out about, you know, what the island of Guam looks like. You grabbed an encyclopedia. You didn't go to a computer. You know, those, you're talking about things advancing. We look at today's tech, today's emerging capabilities, and the impressive things that we can do today. And we want to overlay that we were light years ahead of that 30 years ago. go, Lockheed is a just so, just so everyone knows, in case it's lost, they're a for-profit

business. So you're talking about the fact that they develop the most advanced thing ever in the history of the world at a time when they don't have the resources, they don't have, the elements aren't even known, they don't have any of this, they're funding it in a vacuum, And they're they're surpassing every other modern thing that we've put out there and continue to put out there. The F-47's a great example of an aircraft just announced, contract awarded to Boeing, and Lockheed Martin competed for that. If they had this tech and they had ways to sexy that up and will win this, you know, hundreds of billion dollar contract, that's not chump change. They lost, and it's a big win for Boeing with a lot of the challenges they've had, and it's a big loss for Lockheed. So, you know, and then you look at what Elon Musk said when he was talking about SpaceX and its infancy, and you go back to Tesla, and he talked about, you know, building a rocket is not difficult.

Building a Tesla electric vehicle before there are any, that is not that difficult. You know, you and I look at that, we're like, what do you mean? that's not difficult that seems impossible i wouldn't even know where to begin yeah but to his point it's having the supply system to get the rare earth metals to make the batteries to have a supply chain to build these to scale at scale and a lot of them that's hard building a rocket that you can throw up into orbit while that has its own challenges that's just one thing to be able to do it over and over and over again you're talking about a tail if you look at military you know, units of action or individuals.

If you look at an aircraft and a pilot, right, that pilot or a special operator on the ground in a combat zone or an infantry soldier on the ground, that one infantry soldier has a tail of eight support soldiers to that one, okay, the N1 Abrams tank, one of the big, you know, people thought we were being stingy with it, didn't want to, you know, fear of escalation with Russia, didn't want to give them to Ukraine. that's not exactly it that's a very complicated piece of equipment uh most soviet tanks have one or two mechanics that that thing the m1 abrams has eight or nine different mechanics that work on that thing there's mechanics that have mechanics for every subcomponent's very complicated so you're

you're talking about a tail a special operator has a tale of anywhere depending on who you're talking about anywhere from 13 to 20 to 1 that's 13 to 20 people to support the one the one to the one guy on the ground. When you're talking about a fighter pilot, you're talking about anywhere from 20 to 50 people that are in support, whether it's mechanics, radar operators, all these different people to get that guy to be able to do his job. So the tail to create that thing at a time in the 60s and 70s when information sharing's not that big. And oh, by the way, you're talking about compartmenting it so hard that you're eliminating all of the, and this is Bob Lazars big, big beef you know you're eliminating all these other experts and big brains that could be thinking

on the problem set and weren't you're telling me that lockheed martin with the money they had 30 years ago 40 years ago was given this thing reverse engineered it and now they're messing with military systems of which some of them are theirs there's no air navy ships that are spotting these planes going hey there's this new plane it's not ours who's is it and oh sure Shush, shush. Like, so all the reporting that's coming out on all these UAP, we don't see that with any other experimental aircraft or vehicles or any of that. Yeah.

It's developed in the dark, and then it is deliberately revealed in a time in choosing to have an effect on our adversaries. Hey, there's a reason why President Trump announced the F-47 when he did. Right. That's a reveal. We're letting people know, hey, better tow the line, you know. And so if there's this other thing out there that we've did, just none of it makes sense. None of that passes the sniff test in any way, shape, or form.

I mean, it's great perspective because really what you're saying is there's just no way, in your estimation, with all that said that the Tick-Tac belongs to Lockheed or any other company. So if that's the case, how do, why does that come out there? Why does, I'm not trying to call anybody out here. This is really just more for the question. why does Ross Coldheart come out and say it's Lockheed? Why does this person, why does someone tell Eric Burleson that it's Lockheed? Like what is, where is the disconnect there to have these big reports come out from very well-known names to say, well, I've been told it's Lockheed or flat out say, yes, it is Lockheed technology. I mean, that's, if it's that wrong, why is it being said?

So I do think, if you go back to Bob Lazar's story, which I find credible for a number of reasons. Again, we could blow into that in a different episode. But if you go back to that, if we've recovered several crafts going back to the 1930s and again, to avoid Freedom of Information Act and government oversight, it's way more plausible that Lockheed Martin and people have leaked

that Lockheed Martin have possession of one of these crafts. So that could be an erroneous, can jump to an assumption, that, oh, Lockheed has a craft, they're able to maneuver it around and fly it, that must have been Lockheed Martins. And they may have a Tic-Tac. I don't know.

One of the craft that they may have or any of these other government contract companies that supposedly have these craft, if Lockheed Martin has a craft and they have figured out how to get in it and fly it, maneuver it around, you know, it could be a Tick-Tac shape. It could be a saucer shape.

It could be the sport model like Bob Lazzar talks about it. It could be any of these other things. But you could see a logical assumption that, because even Bob Lazar at one point thought the craft he saw were our own, that we had built them. And so you could see the logical leap of Lockheed Martin or any defense contractor having possession of one of these craft,

maneuvering it around, someone knowing that and stating, hey, company X has this craft, that's their craft. It doesn't mean that that one that they saw is that craft. I am the worst. I am so guilty of this. My friend drives a black Jeep Cherokee. He's one of my best friends. I wave at every black Cherokee up and down our road thinking it's him and it's never him.

And a weird thing, the Chrysler Jeep Company made more than one black jeeps. So they didn't just make his. So it's, you know, with all these sightings, thousands of reports all over the world, you know, if we have a recovered craft, that doesn't mean that was the only one of that shape, but you could logically see where someone could jump to the conclusion of saying, oh, well, no one knows this, but I know Lockheed Martin actually has a Tick-Tac craft that was given to them,

that must be them flying it around. And jumping to the conclusion of, well, we know they have reverse engineering, that must be Lockheed Martins. And I'm just here to tell you that if more of that was able to be reverse engineered, right now, under the Biden administration, we had more armed conflict globally than we've had since World War II. If countries had this technology, they would not be, Russia launched, Russia was the first to launch a hypersonic missile in warfare, and they did it, and they launched it, and it hit a target

of no significance in Ukraine. And the reason why they did that was to demonstrate that they have it, and they can use it. That's a big reveal. So we're not seeing any type of that along any of these other technological things. As a matter of fact, they have 47. While it's been revealed and it's a sixth generation fighter, it's left to speculation what that means. What are its exact capabilities?

Even the SR71 Blackbird going faster than Mach 3, it was years later that we actually found out how fast it flew, what records it broke. the high altitude, it actually broke almost all the records on its last flight into retirement. And so, you know, there's even mystique and unknown about the aircraft we just revealed. So if that's cutting edge, you know, and you have fighter pilots that are read on to everything. If anything's going to be ours in their area, even if it's experimental, they sign NDAs, they're not going to look at it. We have test pilots that fly these things that sign NDAs and they can't talk about it. there's people probably flying these test aircraft long ago and now we've just revealed that it's out right

so the whole idea of in 2004 21 years ago that that tick tack was Lockheed martins and they were doing something with a submerged object and then engaged and and jammed radar and then moved to cap point and messed with a quite expensive training exercise that the navy was doing this was a very big deal involving multiple billion dollar navy ships aircraft all these things you're going to disrupt all that for weeks remember those sightings were going on for weeks that none of that passes the sniff test that's fascinating but i can see i can see where someone if someone was read onto the fact that lock eater another company was given a recovered craft like that i could see the jump to making that assumption and i don't have any evidence one way or the other that's just my opinion but right um what paul talks about in that letter is spot on whether it's a new truck whether it's a

new lta tv that we're driving around on the ground um or it's a new fighter jet or a new bomber he's exactly right with how that process works and anyone any of your listeners that have been through any sort of project management course or training they understand the different steps in project management how much goes into this Locky would bankrupt themselves back in the 70s and 80s to try and do what people are claiming they were able to do. What's way more plausible to me is that they were given a craft. They figured out how to get inside it and they figured out how to fly it.

I don't think that equals the Ticktack in 04 was Lockheed Martins. And even the ones we see now, I mean, it's going back to what you spoke about at the start of our conversation. I mean, we're talking about sightings just a couple of months ago, let alone 21 years ago with the Nimitz. Tick-Tac. We're talking, you know, a few months ago off the coast of California. We're also where the Nimitz took place off the coast of California. I mean, this is, it's still happening. It's not like it was a unique thing.

No, it's happening every day. And that, you know, our aircraft used the term, you know, bogey. And if you listen to Top Gun, oh, bogey, blah, blah, blah. Well, bogey means, you know, unknown aircraft, maybe enemy may not band it is when you know it's an enemy aircraft. So, you know, all these UAPs to a fighter pilot, these are all bogies. They're not known. They don't know what they are. So they have to investigate. Is it adversary?

Is it not? You know, what is this thing? So to them, for them to report, to file report saying, hey, we don't know what this is, that's a big deal. You know, if it were an experimental aircraft, they'd be like, yep, they sign this. Yeah, you saw it, sign this, shut up. Right. But that's not what's happening. And that's an important point to make, I think.

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Go to Shopify.com slash UAP. That's Shopify.com slash UAP. Hi, you're listening to Meditating with Jan from Toyota. Soften your focus and visualize yourself

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And go from dreaming it to driving it today. Dealer inventory may vary. See your participating Toyota dealer for details. Event ends March 31st. Toyota, let's go places. I want to jump back real quick on the few minutes that we have left here, Anthony, to that shootdown of the, I guess, craft over Alaska a few years back where we talked about a lot of mystery and intrigue still surrounds that event. You saw the video. We revealed that here today that you've seen the video of the shootdown. Do we know, which of course is unreleased. Do we know what type of craft that was? I know that was rumored to be some type of Tick-Tac or like the propane tank shape that people talk about, even a cigar. Do we know what kind of

shape that was, what type of craft that was taken down? No. And like I said, the standoff was such that you can't really make it out, even when they do the flyby to check debris. Because at first, it appears that they weren't sure if they hit it. And then they then they saw it falling to the ground. But you can't really make it out in the video. Gotcha. I don't know. No, that's fair.

Do we know if there was any hostile engagement? Because I know we said that the pilot reported it as hostile, which would lead to the shootdown. But was there any hostile engagement that led up to it in the reports that show that? No. No. Not that I found. It may exist, not that I was able to find. It's interesting.

The video comes on shortly before the clearance of fire and then the firing and then the BDA confirmation and the, you know, the grid marking where it was going to land. And it was recovered somehow, but we just don't know where it's been taken or when or who recovered it. Well, I don't, I don't know that because that's not in there. know if it was recovered, but I find it suspicious that we spent, you know, probably a million dollars to shoot something down that was worth shooting down, and then we just left it in Alaska. Right. Yeah, fair enough. And let an Inuit or Bob Slaughter just come across it, whatever it is. That makes no sense. You don't do that with anything else.

Yeah. Common sense dictates. Yeah. The grid being marked, you know, in logical military terms is so that, for the next satellite flyover, it can get imagery of it. Okay. And confirm. Right. That's why you do that. That's how you could get battle damage assessment as well or the aircraft flying over it.

But that's why you would do that. Yeah. That makes perfect sense when you put it all together. What's something that you've been thinking about over, say, the past few months? Maybe something that's been running through your head as you go through reports, as you watch videos, as you look at pictures, and just kind of connecting it with the overall landscape right now of the UAP conversation.

What's something that's been in your head, a frustration even that makes you say, you know, I wish this could happen or that could happen or I want to tell somebody about this scenario and I haven't been able to get it out there. What kind of floats around that meets that criteria? Yeah, you know, I think there's so many good, people, smart people doing righteous work, you know, trying to really make heads or tails of this

whole thing. And there's, you have so many unqualified experts with crazy opinions out there trying to shoot it down. I think my gut feeling right now, it's like when I jump out of an airplane, you know, for work or for recreation, you know, when we're shooting up and going through our, you know, gear inspection and then we get on the aircraft and the aircraft takes off and it's flying up to altitude the whole time, at least a little bit in my mind is at real soon, like not right now, but real soon that door is going to open and I'm going to jump out of this airplane. Like it, thousands of jumps later, that thought still goes through my head. Like I'm going, I'm about to, I'm going to jump out of this airplane. Then I'm on the airplane. We're riding up and I'm like,

okay, the next way down is under a parachute. Like, I'm going to jump. jump out of this aircraft. And when the door opens and it comes time, I've been thinking about this the whole time. And now here it is, I'm jumping out, whether it's with a group or by myself or whatever. Now the jump happens, I jump out and the jump's done. I feel like, you know, in different times,

like when we have different announcements at work or even in our own private lives, when we know like you at work, you heard your boss is gonna, you know, move on and there's going to be a new guy. You don't know when that's happening. All of a sudden, you come in one day and they're like, oh, hey, we're having Bob's party on Friday.

John's the new guy. You're like, oh, wow, oh, wow, that happened, right? Like, it's a surprise. I feel like the only next logical step is big disclosure. And I feel like it's going to catch us off guard. I don't know if that's after the release of the Stephen Spielberg movie that's coming out, the age of disclosure, the Bob Lazar movie. if you know if all this is going to just build up the hype get it back around the dinner table get

everyone talking about it and then all of a sudden boom but i feel like i'm i feel like i'm waiting to walk into the office and someone shocked me with the news that we all knew was coming but like oh oh it happened now like the buildup for russia to invade ukraine we had so many indicators going off the ukrainians zolensky himself really believed that deterrence would work but none of the military analysts at the lower level we all knew that we all knew that it's the military this was coming when they actually did it were like oh oh god okay they went wow like we knew it could be in a matter of days or weeks but like okay they went yeah end of february they're doing it 2022 market so i feel like that's where we're at with this like the only next step is either just staunch hardline

lies which i don't think anyone's going to accept anymore there's just too much evidence there's too many witnesses, there's too many experiencers, there's too much photographed evidence, video evidence, there's too much that can't be explained. There's too many credible observers, military government that have seen too much just right off, and you can't justify all that. There's not one story you can tell that writes it all off. So whatever this phenomenon is, whatever this thing is that we're seeing, I feel like very credentialed people are leaving breadcrumbs, and I feel like the only next logical step is disclosure. And even then, for some people, I think that's not going to be good enough.

You know, people, I want to touch the body myself. Okay, weirdo. Like, no, like, but at least for me, you know, if, you know, if a high-ranking general officer, the Secretary of Defense, or the president or vice president came on, did a press conference and said, hey, we, for very valid reasons, you know, Roswell was told to be a weather balloon. You know, we used disinformation for a lot of other national security reasons that we used then. We can come out and confirm this was a vehicle of non-human origin.

We have been studying it. We, you know, have had it in our possession since. There's not much more we can tell you about what we're doing with it and what we know. But, you know, if that came out and that happened, I feel like that's the only next step. And I feel like I'm waiting for it any day when I wake up or walk into work. And yet it could still be two years, 20 years, never in my lifetime. You know, but I feel like that's where we're at. I feel like so much has come out since 2017, really.

You know. Just a sense of like inevitability. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I feel like it's inevitable. I feel like that's the only next step. I'll get you out of here on this because I really did want to get your opinion on it. it's an important one

so I wanted to throw it out there recently Michael Herrera put out a video kind of addressing other whistleblowers you know he's in that he's in that realm and some people believe him

some people don't I'm not here to argue about that I'm just talking about he came out with a video saying that he doesn't feel like other people in his shoes who have thought about coming out should bother doing it

what do you make of that how do you think and it's I know it's hard to say everybody's situation is, you know, an individual situation. So, but just as a whole, do you think it is worth it in the current climate for someone to come out and risk everything the way that Grush did, the way that Herrera did, the way that's, you know, so many other people have in the past now?

And Roderick Castle is someone who I just introduced, you know, so many people have come out. Yeah, you know, I really think it's a personal choice. I think, I think Michael Ruhrer specifically falls into that. category where he has a story to tell. He told it. It's not been received well by some. It's been received well by others, but the net gain for him was a loss. And so for him, in his experience, opinion is it wasn't worth it. But I really think that's individual. And I think what people know and what they believe and what they've seen and what they've experienced, you know, I would still be that if there's someone out there that has touched these things, that has done the autopsy

on the bodies, that has, you know, whatever it is, if you've got that guy, you know, I would love for that guy to come out and still be a whistleblower. But quite frankly, there's not been a whistleblower yet that hasn't been dragged through the mud, whether it's an article releasing David Grush's medical history, which is against the law, you know, and and, and, and, and smearing his name or quite frankly whether it's the uap community eating its own yeah like i i really think you know people see all this and these experiencers or witnesses they have a story to tell so they come out and tell it and they don't they don't meet the uh criteria for this loud voice on twitter and they get just dragged through the mud and and ridiculed and hated on it on

And for some people, you know, these are humans, you know, these are people with feelings, you know, well, they're lying. Okay. You know, I look at it this way. If someone's lying and they're coming out and telling a lie, that's going to come out anyway. Like, leave it alone. Listen to their story. I love the way, you know, Chris Ramsey says it on his podcast. I need you to suspend your disbelief for a minute, you know.

Listen to their stories. suspend your disbelief, just listen to it and make it, like you always say, make up your own mind. But why do you have to mean things and hurtful things and drag people through the mud and all this stuff? If you don't believe Michael Herrera, I've never given Michael Herrera's story. And it's in my opinion, it's no one else's business. But I listen to his story. But I think other whistleblowers have experienced the ones that have been publicly smeared by what appears to be government leaks, that should tell you something.

And quite frankly, the UAP community tends to eat their own. So I think a guy like Michael O'Rare comes out and says that because his net experience has not been positive. And I feel horrible for him. That's the case, you know, because here's a guy that's trying to just share his story. And some people will argue with me and say,

no, that's a guy lying trying to get famous. Okay. I think we eat our own. I think that might be part of why Michael, Herrera is cautionary to other whistleblowers. Quite frankly, the other fact is we don't, we have not passed the whistleblower Protection Act, you know, the UAP Disclosure Act. That's not been passed.

That's a big red flag. That's another indicator that there is something there that they don't want out because they're not willing to let people break their, you know, their agreements with the government to whistleblow. So, yeah, that's my opinion on Michael Herrera. I feel horrible for him to have had that experience. I find it very distasteful for what the UAP community has done to him and others. You know, I watch Anna Polina Luna's podcast on Joe Rogan.

Thought she did a great job. I thought there were very intelligent points made. And again, it's her opinion of what she's seen. And right away, right away, just all the trolls just on top of this. And it's like, man, I don't think any of that's helpful. I think Joe Rogan's got the, you know, I think, you're number two for the widest viewed podcast in the world maybe i don't know but but i know joe rogan's got one of the largest platforms for them to have that discussion yeah man that that's talk about

bringing into the dinner table again that's fantastic i have seen snippets of her uh interview on joe rogan on three major news networks that's that's huge yeah so why are we hitting on that you know whether you believe her or not but you know just again suspend your disbelief make your own opinion, but, you know, just me listening to what Michael O'Rer wrote, I can see a guy who has been hurt by him coming out. He came out with a story and he's been hurt by it. And I think that's what he's trying to get at. Yeah. I think it's all really fair. And, man, I wish we had more time because, you know, I always say that by the end of one of our conversations, because there's always so much that's left on the bone, but that just means we bring you back for another

time. So, Anthony, I know we're pretty much out of time here. So I just want to say, thanks for coming back and doing this and I look forward to coming back again with you in the future. Any final thing you wanted to throw out there before you go? No, I just want to say, you know, for all those people that are listening, you know, to your podcast and other podcasts, you know, just keep listening. Just keep your eyes and ears open. Look up at the night sky. You never know when you're going to see something and, you know, just watch, you know,

listen to where this topic gets brought up. You know, it is, it's loud. It's pretty loud. I go back to my earlier years in the military. This was not a topic. This is a topic everywhere. I really appreciate you having me on, buddy. I always enjoy our talks, whether it's on air or off air

and look forward to more of them in the future. Yeah, likewise. Anthony Williams, thanks so much. Coming back on here to UAP, we'll talk again soon. Sounds great, Stephen. Have a good day. Thanks. Thank you again to Anthony Williams for that two-part series

for joining me for so long for that conversation and getting all that information out there. I really love it. Always a great time to have him on. And next time when we talk, we actually discussed this after we were done. We're going to talk about his own experiences. He's actually had two really quite incredible experiences of his own when it comes to unexplained sightings. And we've never really covered those in detail before.

So especially one that he had not too long ago that he told me about in a private the conversation a few months back. It's incredible. I mean, it's right up there with some of the best UFO sightings I've ever heard, and he had one out in the desert area. So we'll talk about that next time when that will be. I'll let you know maybe a few months down the road, whatever it might be. But I look forward to hearing about his own personal encounters, his experiences. And we'll bring those to you next time that we talk.

Another part, though, that I found fascinating just during that second part of the conversation. And I didn't get to bring it up a whole lot during the, you know, preview during the intro here of this episode, which was his take on the logistical side. I don't know why. Maybe I'm just like a nuts and bolts guy. I don't know. But I find the logical side to be fascinating because when you bring in the logistical side of things and add logic to what would be required from just a everyday standpoint of business to be able to to make an advanced aircraft like the Tic Tac, right? Going back to what he was talking about when it comes to what Lockheed or other companies might or might not have and if what we're seeing

does belong to them. That's always been the big question. And Anthony has always said, no, that's not the case from his standpoint because, well, of everything we spoke about there. And it's such an interesting point. And there's more points to it. Of course, you know, these things have been seen for hundreds of years and Lockheed and Raytheon weren't around hundreds of years ago. So that's that's also one of the, uh, the big determining factors there. But when it comes to just some of the modern day talk about, you know, the Tick-Tac, who does belong to just because that was such a big point of contention recently, it does make sense when you talk about it, not being human technology that were seen because of all the logistical

factors that were brought up there. And I always love getting kind of that really, you know, the inside look, the nuts and bolts look about what would go into, you know, and the, a procedure like that to build this craft, to test it out, and, you know, how long would you need to do this before you present it to the public? And why would you present it in such a way that it has been presented? So just to look at it from that point of view, I really enjoyed getting to do that because it's just, it's a different way of thinking. And that's something that Anthony can really do well, considering that he has so much experience in that field. But all around, just great stuff. And I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you found it informative

and educational. We all learned something new with all the information that he was able to present and some of the points of view that he's able to give, which is always appreciated because of where he's giving it from.

But there is much more to come down the road here for UAP. We never slow down here. I'm going to keep you updated on the new UAP hearings coming September 9th. I'll let you know what's happening there if I'm able to go.

I'm trying to plan that out now. I mean, it's only a few weeks away as we stand here on the, the 21st of this release date for part two of this episode. So we'll see what happens in a few weeks, but I'll keep you updated what that scene looks like, who might be the witnesses.

As all the news comes out, I'll keep you updated there. And what's coming up next on UAP? So follow along so you can see all of that right there at UA Podcast 850 on social media, especially on Twitter, at UA podcast 850, to follow along, get all the latest updates.

And, of course, through email, S-Diener, UAP at gmail.com. want to reach me there or messages through any of the social media channels who can reach out to me however you would like and I'll respond. Outside of that, it's been another wild week of UAP. Who knows what will happen next, but I can't wait to bring it all to you. On that note, thank you all again for everything. Always means the world to me for your support and all the kind words.

So until next time, it is Stephen Deiner here saying, be well, as always. Thanks so much. And we'll talk again soon right here on UAP, the Unidentified Alien Podcast. Thank you.