UAP Unidentified Alien Podcast - UAP EP 213 The Dirty Work of Disclosure

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

Jordan Flowers, the Executive Director of the Disclosure Foundation, joins Stephen Diener to speak about the Forum in DC that could be the next big thing that moves the UFO needle. If you didn't know about this, then you need to hear it now. Plus, what are the aspects of disclosure that are being seriously considered before things move forward? All of this and more right now... See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome back into UAP. Stephen Dean are back. We're here as always for UAP, the unidentified alien podcast. This time, episode number 213. Yes, that's right. Onward we go. And what we're going to do today, actually, speaking of onward, is we're going to preview something that is happening this week.

Now, of course, depending on when you hear this, may have already happened. But on Thursday, June 25th, there's going to be another big event in Washington, D.C., and I'm not sure if I'm going to be there, but either way, I'll do my best to keep you up to date on what is going on there because it's called the Disclosure Foundation Forum. And the Disclosure Foundation, you're going to learn a lot about that here today as we bring on Jordan Flowers, the executive director of the Disclosure Foundation. And that's somebody, you might be familiar with the name recently because he's been around a lot through different media right now on CBS, on, he's, we've, we've, was featured in the Wall Street Journal and the New York Post. And you'll hear us mention that during the interview. But this is somebody that I met actually when I went to the press conference a couple of weeks

back. And it turns out Jordan, which I didn't know, but he's the executive director for the Disclosure Foundation. And they're doing a lot of work behind the scenes, especially in the Washington, D.C. scene, if you will, hence the name of the episode for the dirty work of disclosure. Because there is a lot of, you know, dirty work that goes on behind the scenes. And I don't mean dirty in a negative kind of. I just mean like, you know, we all want the answers, right?

We all want the secrets, the pictures, the videos, but there is a lot of work that has to happen to make those things come out to push the ball forward down the field. And Jordan and the Disclosure Foundation are doing a lot of that work. So I was happy to bring him on today to discuss what they do, what we should expect from the Disclosure Foundation Forum that is happening on June 25th. There's a lot of people who are going to be there that are very big into the disclosure conversation, whether in D.C. or otherwise. And so we're going to get into what to expect there, the work that they're doing, and a lot of the things that, you know, they might be

able to reveal during this forum as well. So, and then some of the intellectual parts of things like, you know, the implications, whether economically, psychologically, of course, religious implications of disclosure. We go into a lot of the intellectual side of things on disclosure, and that's actually part of the disclosure forum itself, some of the people who are going to be speaking there. Really, really interesting stuff to kind of sit back and take in and really consider on a real world view how all of this conversation, which sometimes enters into the abstract. We kind of enter it into as like, you know, a lot of hypothetical, but a lot of the real world implications about, hey, what if this really does happen?

You know, what's next? and how do we get there? So we go into a lot of those things here on this discussion with myself and Jordan Flowers, and I will let you get to that now, a lot of that is discussed right here on UAP. Enjoy. All right, so I'm really excited for this. And I think you should be too because bring it on here today to UAP, got to meet him in person a week or two ago, and great guy.

And I'm excited for you to hear him. Jordan Flowers, executive director of the Disclosure Foundation. And first of all, Jordan, thank you for coming on here to U.S. AP. I'm really happy you can make time to do this today. Yeah, my pleasure, man. I'm happy to come. And it was a delight to meet you in D.C. on June 9th. And, yeah, have a conversation, spend a bit of time together. And, you know, we're all trying to swim in the same direction here. So I really enjoy the time. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Yeah. And actually, I'll start there. There's a lot going on, as I always say here on the show when I start because it's not a cliche.

like that's just really what's happening. There's always something going on. And I'm going to try to fit in as much as I can with you here today. But I'm going to kind of start back there, actually, at the press conference. June 9th, we're both there. I know we both felt very honored and privileged to be a part of that process at the press conference that day. And I'm curious to get your take on that day. You know, we got to kind of catch up and speak about it in real time as it was happening.

and then right after. But as has now got to set in, and you've seen some things develop since then, whether it's news interviews or reports in the papers or wherever, what has kind of sat with you now since that press conference on June 9th? Great question.

Okay, so the first thing is I should have worn sunscreen because I am... It was odd. I'm getting less coverage up here by the day, and that was literally my first thought. as I was standing up there. But in all seriousness, I was really pleased. And there's a lot of gratitude I have for James Fox and Leslie Kane and all of the work

that they put in and sort of the trials and tribulations they had to deal with unexpected changes to make that happen. It's difficult to execute. It's difficult to get that many members of the the media there. And it's incredibly difficult to assemble such an amazing all-star panel of contributors there. We were just, I think somebody had mentioned there was like, you know, a lot of brave people like standing behind them and all that. I consider the whistleblowers to be to be brave people. I'm just trying to move the ball down the field. But I was really encouraged by

takes that were there were different takes. For example, you know, Representative Moskowitz, it was great to hear from him and how just with a concise, powerful message about how he views this topic, how important it is, his reference to, I think, you know, technology coming out of Area 51, like we know that that happens. And his call for like greater transparency in an investigation. I think his quote was like, disclosure today, disclosure tomorrow, you know. Yeah, that's right. Sort of us all like welling up with a sense of pride and great leadership there.

That stood out to me. And then, you know, also wonderful commentary from the other representatives who were there, you know, Luna Burchett, Burleson. Yes. You know, Dave Grush speaking. Yeah. Um, his comments were, you know, we've, we, we, we want to bring out more data with this subject. We want to, you know, our organization, the Disclosure Foundation wants to try and help guide Congress on like what the ask should be for new data, try to find those things and get it out to the public.

And that could be videos. That could be satellite data. That could be radar data, et cetera. Um, but then we also. of course, like want to understand what the, what the truth is about the alleged, you know, crash recovery and reverse engineering program. Right. And it's sort of like a stepwise effort there.

One of the things that I thought could be really huge if, if this were to transpire. So, you know, Grush made his comments and then he made some additional comments in an interview with Fox News. and he had said, I believe, and please correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but he said that he has seen photos of craft, I believe in like crashes. I forget if it was, you know, crashes or landings, but he's seen photos of craft and seemed to indicate that there was a retrieval effort for some of these things. And then he indicated in the Fox News interview that if I believe he expects some of those materials to be released through the presidential pursue, you know, UAP file release. Right. If that happens, if we're able to get some of that information out there through this platform, that will dramatically increase the political capital.

that we can draw from to try and push hard to crack that open. That would really be, I think, a watershed moment if we can get just a few, you know, pieces of data out there, reports, photos, videos, whatever it is, to try to really refine the ask and where Congress feels like they have the political capital to push for the release of that. So I was really encouraged that that seemed to be, that was me like sort of trying to understand what Dave Grush was saying and what could be on the horizon. Yeah. And then, you know, how our organization, you know, certainly would hope that that happens and

then take that and run with it to drive more transparency. And there's so much there that I'd like to kind of expound upon. But I want to ask you first because I know when it comes to, of course, the disclosure efforts that are happening. that have really evolved and taken on a new life in the past, I would say a couple of years, maybe probably about three years on the D.C. front. And, of course, with your disclosure forum coming up on June 25th, I want to get to that as well and kind of the goals of that, who's going to be speaking, because it is an incredible speaker list you guys have coming there.

But with all that being said, I know for you personally, you have more of a background before kind of getting into this with investments, entrepreneurship, So how did you, how did Jordan Flowers get into this topic and become an executive director of the Disclosure Foundation? And on top of that, for anybody who doesn't know, I may not be 100% familiar with the Disclosure Foundation. How could that, or how should that be defined for people who aren't familiar with the foundation? The Disclosure Foundation, you know, we're a 501C3 nonprofit. We describe ourselves as having three legs of the stool to the work we do. We do policy research.

We try to function like a think tank to commission white papers. And I'll talk about some of the things coming down the pike there. We also have a legal component. So we have a team of lawyers who does FOIA requests and FOIA litigation, as well as whistleblower guidance and whistleblower representation. The third leg of the stool is advocacy and education. That includes advocating for the topic in the halls of Congress. that includes advocating for specific legislation, and that includes educating the public,

whether it's doing interviews, doing talks, going around and trying to speak and educate to those who are interested to listen. And I've gone around and done several talks at academic institutions, everything from academic institutions to like country clubs, you know, these like clubs that have like speaker series. And people are really, really interested in this topic.

I think they do take it seriously. And you know, you'd be surprised at the number of people when you, you know, are in an environment of trust. And people say that they've like, they've seen things that they can't explain. They've had strange experiences and they really like, and they also have an intuition that, like, the government doesn't tell them the truth about this. Like they're super highly motivated to like, but, I think Washington, D.C. is finally starting to realize how much political capital there is in this topic. Right. I think there are people who could get elected with this as a single or at least primary part of their platform.

I really do. And of course, the transparency effort for UAP is just one sort of thing underneath broader transparency efforts that are available at the Director of National Intelligence like the dig. and they're investigating other things too. Yeah, exactly. So a little bit about the foundation. And then I believe you had said, you know, how is that sort of like... Well, how did you come into this? Because I always find that interesting.

I come into it. Yes. So, yeah, I have a background in like finance and investments. I worked on Wall Street for a long time. And then I worked at a company called McKinsey doing consulting work. I'm like a distressed investments and like, like, turnaround professional. So, you know, you go into like Fortune 100 company and do like, you could do a distress turnaround or you could do a good to great turnaround. That's sort of my

skill set. After I left McKinsey, I went to a startup during COVID and the startup like imploded. And after that, I was like, I was thinking, you know, what I'm going to take the time off and think about like what I really want to do next, like what's meaningful to me in terms of, independent of, you know, money or, you know, scale, scope, money, whatever. I just want to have, like, more signal and feel like I'm doing more meaningful work. I had been following this topic and said, hey, I think that my, like, skill set might be relevant here for, like, having an entrepreneurial skill set, having a financial skill set. that didn't seem to be like heavily represented in the community, if you want to call it that.

And so I was, I was like, okay, maybe I can add value. How can I do that? So I helped like try and finance and get up and running some conferences. I helped finance a independent like docu series on the UAP topic and just trying to leverage that skill set. and you know, I'm just a very impact-oriented person. I just want to add value. And if I'm not adding value, then I can, you know, go home and sit on the couch and read a book. The reason I'm interested in this is I find it totally intellectually fascinating, regardless of like what the truth is. Like, I'm convinced that the truth is sensational. And I definitely don't know what the truth is.

And, you know, beware of anyone who tells you that they do know what the truth is. I agree. But I just find it intellectually fascinating, like at the bleeding edge of like, you know, human knowledge and human ignorance of multiple topics, whether it's like physics and, you know, advanced physics and quantum mechanics or whether it's artificial intelligence or whether it's, you know, the nature of consciousness and like the theory of mind. Like I read about all those things in my spare time. And then when you continue, you know, sort of like learning more about this topic, you, you get the sense that there are, are connections there to this topic and those like sort of bleeding edge frontiers of knowledge.

So that for me is, I think, like the intellectual underpinning and interest that that sort of keeps me going and why don't get bored, you know. Yeah. It's just a natural curiosity, right? to kind of drive. Yeah, that's exactly right. I'm a very, very curious person. I want to know how things work. And yeah, like you were saying, you end up in places you didn't expect to be. But I've also, you know, and I'm like, I'm a volunteer in this work.

Like, I don't get paid. And it's strange because I've never, you know, worked harder and been, felt like I've had more meaningful work, you know. It's been a delight to try and move the ball. down the field here, you know, notwithstanding, like trying to do it on a volunteer basis, which is really like a privilege to be able to do. Yeah, I agree. And with that in mind, actually, Jordan, you know, thinking back to where you were,

to where you are now with with the foundation, are you, I won't say satisfied. Satisfied is the wrong word. Are you happy? Are you pleased? Are you okay with where things stand now? as far as where the ball is on the field of moving towards the goal line of basic disclosure even, let alone all the other things that come along with basic disclosure. Are you okay with where things are now?

And even if you are okay with it, where do you still think it needs to go sooner than later to get closer to the goal line? Hey, guys, so I'm going to get back into the show in just a minute, but if you'll allow me, Mars Men is a natural supplement and it's designed to support. support healthy testosterone levels. And I want to really highlight natural because I want to try to stay as natural as I can. I'm not looking to take any weird hormones or, you know, weird stimulants or anything like that. Nothing synthetic. I want to be as natural as possible.

And that's what Mars Men has offered here. That's what they do offer. They can help your body burn fat more efficiently and build lean muscle. That's all we can ask for these days is to try to stay healthy by burning fat and building lean muscle naturally. And with Mars men, your hormones can work the way they're supposed to. A lot of things can get easier on Mars men, workouts, your energy, staying lean. Mars men can help you do that. So do what I did.

Go check out Mars Men today. For a limited time, my listeners get 50% off for life plus free shipping and three free gifts at men go to Mars.com. That's men go to Mars.com for 50% off and three free gifts when you check out. And after you purchase, they will ask you, where you heard about them. So please support my show and tell them my show sent you. Yeah, I mean, I think to like to continue the sports metaphor, you know, the game's not over yet.

I'm not sure which quarter we're in. Pretty sure it's not the fourth quarter. I do think we have points on the board, but I think we're behind on points. And so am I comfortable that we have points? Am I glad we have points on the board? Absolutely. Is the job finished? Absolutely not.

We need to put more points on the board. We need to win the game. We need to drive this home. But without torturing the sports metaphor too much, you know, I think we are, this is somewhat uncharted territory. Because we have, and what I mean by that, very narrowly is there is now presidential will behind these transparency efforts. That is something that I am not aware of really existing in any meaningful way previously. So I am made somewhat sanguine by that situation that where we are in a better place for

discovery and transparency here than I think we ever have been. and we're more set up for success than in these sort of prior efforts. I'm really glad for that. I'm glad to see the releases. But of course, you know, am I satisfied? No. You know, a lot of, you know, there's always shifting goalposts in this, in this topic, right? Especially with like, you know, the noises that people make on social media.

I mean, 10 years ago, if you would explain to someone like where we'd be, that would be, you know, I think interpret it as like a very successful like steps forward. Yeah. So I think others, you know, will always have these shifting expectations. But I think when you're running an organization, you have to define success. Yeah. So you know what you're running toward and trying to achieve and then work backwards from there to figure out how to do it.

So I think certainly more and better data releases around this topic are going to help. We talked about the potential for the release of information from David Grush or regarding, potentially regarding craft. I will tell you that the DNI is extremely, this also goes into the like conversation about presidential will and the executive branch, like being on board. These people seem to have like a fire under their butts more so than I, we've ever seen on the willingness and urgency to get information out to the public, like as if they're being directed, leaned on hard by the White House to push this forward. And we're now seeing some of the evidence of that come out as well, right?

The talk about this UAP governance board, you know, what is that meant to do, who is on that governance board, what's the mandate, I'm still trying to get up speed on that. And then, of course, underneath that, you know, the UAP science advisory council that Avi Loeb has described, which we're fortunate to have several of our advisory board members of the Disclosure Foundation on that council, Avi Loeb, Tim Gaudiott, Janice Philhauer, who is an absolute rock star and just a wonderful person to work with. So there's will, there's motivation, there's mechanisms in place.

We have a lot more things we want to accomplish in terms of releases. Clearly, we need, you know, in our opinion, we need like a full-blown national intelligence estimate or what's referred to in D.C. as an NIE about this topic to really like put four corners around what we think is happening here and what is our strategy. going forward. We are absolutely still advocating for legislation like the UAP Disclosure Act, which, you know, I think still has still has life to it, per our conversations with members of Congress. And we are pushing for like success at the forum, right? So it's, you know, you talked about what are, so what does success look like? What are the goals? And then how does the forum fit into that?

And the goals of the forum are quite simple in some ways. Like we are really trying to break through with this topic into the mainstream, like, media, into like, you know, the bloodstream of, like, the mainstream. This community historically has been quite small, and it's been inward facing. And a lot of people just talking to each other. and my phrase in the organization is we really need to like expand the audience. We need to like expand the size of that circle and we need to turn around and we need to start talking outward. It's an incredible speaker list.

I mean, the people that you guys have been able to bring in. And I just kind of think I goes to show the influence and the power of the disclosure foundation that you guys have been able to reach out to some of the most influential voices in the topic of D.C. and in other words. So yeah, I'm glad you brought up, but I was just about to ask you for the Disclosure Forum coming up on the 25th in DC. Take it away. I mean, it's really incredible you guys have coming up there. Sure, yeah. So I was talking about the, you know, we haven't made the media list public yet, but I mean, we are blown away by the people who have at least said they're going to be there. We also have our fingers crossed that, you know, we can we can execute on this.

and, you know, our organization historically has have pretty limited resources and just a wildly dedicated team of volunteers that I'm incredibly grateful for and would never, we'd never be able to do this without having like a big and dedicated team. So, you know, shout out to those, to everyone on the team. But, you know, the, so there's the media component like pierce through into the mainstream and do that with having sort of the phrase I use is like we want to be in a credible place

speak incredibly with credible people about this topic. And like really just try to like maximize that like credibility factor as for the messaging to like the greater public. Right. You know, our audience is not this is not a preaching to the choir forum, right? The audience is not intended to be the UAP community. The audience is intended to be the general public members of Congress,

leadership, and the mainstream media. So that's what we're hoping to achieve there. And, you know, we're fortunate to have, like, Gotti Schwartz is supposed to moderate the national security panel, I believe, and we've got some other wonderful contributors, and we're still working on some surprise guests that could be material, but we'll see how that evolves. But just in terms of what we've been able to assemble to date, I'm really proud of. I mean, trying to, so not only would there be like a conversation about national security, but also, as most people familiar with the topic, no, like what are the implications for, potentially for the financial markets and the economy? What are the implications for religion and philosophy? How do we navigate this

from a psychological perspective? You know, the term ontological shock is used commonly. So that is sort of another goal of the of the forum is doing is we're not trying to prove the case, right? We feel like that work has already really been done in a material way by by Congress, by these data releases, et cetera. Like we're not trying to prove the case that like there's a there there. We want to focus more on problem solving, right? So how do we, we take whistleblowers at the, word. We take, you know, Congress at its word, you know, vis-a-vis legislation about what is happening here. We know we're having incursions of sensitive military facilities. So regardless of what this is,

it's important and, I think, urgent. And we need to shift into problem-solving mode and to be leaders on that front. So problem-solving around national security, around non-proliferation, problem solving around the religious aspect markets and the psychological front as well. Have a lot of gratitude to Senator Rounds for helping to sponsor us for this space, as well as to have a half dozen members of Congress on the House side showing up at least two and potentially three or four senators showing up to speak about this. And when you asked before about having the conversation, you know, it's like credible conversations, credible people, credible space to try and pierce through, the space really matters. Like, really since day one, we envisioned this as we were ideating about how we would accomplish this, given, you know, relatively limited resources.

We had always had the Kennedy caucus room in the Russell Senate building in mind. I mean, this is one of the most historic venues in Washington, D.C., focused around transparency. The Watergate hearings were held in this room. I believe it was the Iran-Contra hearings were held in this room. There is a deep history here of being in this space and pursuing, efforts for transparency and truth for the American public. And that's really, we're really trying to send a message there and have that really help with our efforts. It's almost poetic in a sense, like to have this. It's almost like poetic in a sense to have this form in that

space it feels like because I know I mean just and correct me from wrong some of the names I've seen that are involved I know you mentioned members of Congress in the Senate um senator rounds of course so you mentioned uh Senator Gillibrand these are names that have been synonymous with the uap disclosure of push on the Senate side uh Congress uh Burchett and uh Luna and Burleson I believe I've seen there um Mike gold from NASA former NASA and former congressional witness. One of my favorite people in the world. Really good guy. I got to meet him once. And I think he gave me a bunch of patches when I met him one time. This is awesome. Great. Thank you. Yeah. He said had these patches on demand that the

astronauts were. I'm like, thank you very much. And I think how put off I saw as well. So I mean, is that all confirmed? Is that what people should expect that, that and more? Yeah. So, I mean, what you see is what you get is as far as I'm aware. on the website currently. If that changes, you know. These things are in flux sometimes, so I understand. Oh, yeah, for sure. And this is free, right?

People can come out. If they want to come to the Kennedy Caucus Room in D.C., this is free to the public. So, I mean, should people... Thank you for mentioning that amongst the, just like, I don't know, people making noises about, like, grifting and whatever. Yes, right. Yeah, just to repeat.

This event is free and open to the public. And that's what it is. Right. It's a form. It's being held in a building that our tax dollars pay for. Right. You know, we and thank goodness, we were able to raise money to be able to do a live stream. It's something that we didn't think was going to be feasible.

We tried to do that at like one of our last events. And like, you know, we weren't really satisfied with like the results. And it was very stressful. Thank goodness, like we were able to get some money in the door so we could hire a firm to do a live stream for the event. Because that's important to us. Like I, you know, we don't have an overflow room or what have you. You know, I don't want people to, you know, people should know that it's free and open to the public, but there's also a limited number of seats.

So like I don't, I, I'm worried that we've tried to be very explicit about this. I'm worried there'll be people flying in and that, you know, don't get a seat and we'll be upset. So please, like, you know, be mindful of those things. But the good news is, like, we expect high demand for the event, but it will be live streamed. And then, of course, after we, you know, end up setting up the live stream and getting that contracted and everything, you know, we now have, like, news networks who also want to live stream it. Right, right. Hopefully there should be multiple opportunities for people to see. I think it puts a little bit of pressure on for the, you know, the run-up show and everything

and getting everyone in the right place at the right time when they're moving around in Congress. But, you know, however that ends up materializing, I think it'll be, it should be really productive. Yeah. So that's my hope. It should be, I mean, again, I'm not trying to put any pressure on you guys, but it feels like it should be. be the next, you know, like the press conference was on June 9th. I feel like this will get a lot of coverage and attention as well, maybe different, you know, clips of speeches that come out or presentations that come out. And it feels like it should be the next big thing that people are going

to pay attention to in this space. And I mean, because look, listen, I know you want to be humble about it, which is great. I'm the same way, but let's face it. You've been on recently CBS Morning News. You've been featured in the Wall Street Journal in New York Post recently. You've been on with Al Jazeera. Like, you've been on with national and international media talking about this. So is that what people should maybe expect to see like this gets picked up by national and international media? I know that's the goal for you guys. So, I mean, is that an expectation?

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and tell them my show sent you. Yeah. And like we're also working behind the scenes on like some whistleblower support initiatives and potential paths for like, collaboration. I want to make sure that doesn't get lost also. Yeah. Like it's really important. So, you know, hopefully having all of these like spinning plates in the air, we don't have any any that drop, but it is what it is. I'm sure it won't be perfect, but I'm really excited about it. I mean, I, you know, in particular, I'm very excited about the work of like Dr. Janice Wilhauer, who is on our advisory board, and I mentioned previously as a wonderful person,

she's the author, you may have seen this. So she's the author of several of these articles on psychology today that are talking about cognitive bias, stigma, cognitive overload, ontological shock. A lot of these core psychological ideas as they relate to the topic of UAP, as they relate to disclosure.

we had spoken with her about doing a white paper around those things. I recently reviewed the work product that she sent over and that she's going to use as a basis for conversation at the forum. And I mean, this is really powerful work and does really heavy lifting to, I would call it like careful. precisely and academically disassemble these narratives that we have about societal collapse and, you know, people learning of this and like losing their faith and running around the streets and looting and, you know, dogs and cats sleeping together, you know, this sort of alarmist narrative. And that's part of the problem solving is like, you know, I've been asked like, you know, where did those like narratives come from?

And I'm like, I'm pretty sure they came from the people that like that narrative benefits, right? And they sure didn't come from academia, at least as far as I can tell. So trying to deploy our like intellectual resources to address these, these topics and really dive in deep to have arguments that are backed by data, backed by professionals in that space.

And I'm just so excited for the public to see that work. We're going to try and release that white paper. I'm just looking at the, so it's Thursday today. We're going to try and get a press release out and release that work product ahead of the forum so that everyone, including the media, can sort of digest it prior to the speech there. So excited about that, you know. That's important work. Get it.

Like there's more than national security at stake for this conversation. Right. And it's true. I mean, that is something that isn't, maybe it's not brought up enough, you know, because we do talk about what I call like the big three is the religious, the financial, and then kind of like the technology slash societal part of it. Exactly. And the psychology of it, I mean, there are going to be psychological aspects to this. And we, I'm sure you and I have both seen it when we talk to friends or family members who may not be into the topic. And then you tell them, you know, they're saying this and there's video of this and there's possible evidence of this. kind of like the light bulb go off and something clicks and they get that look on their face like wait like so this is true maybe and they so that that has an effect on people so that's really interesting that you guys have that going yeah so let's let's discuss each one of those things right we just discussed the psychological um component uh with with stigma and i don't want to give

away the sort of the core takeaway from jenise's paper i want to let her paper speak for itself um And then, you know, we have Dr. Carlos Air, who is a Yale professor of religion, who wrote a book called They Flew, and is really an expert in how do societies deal with, how do they adapt when they encounter the impossible? And then, in fact, there is a real opportunity here for a positive outcome and building resilience. as a in our worldview, as a, as a culture, as a country and potentially also as a species. So we're super excited about that. So we talked about psychology. We talked about religion. Now let's talk about financial markets.

Oh, no. The markets are going to go to zero. Some of the stuff I've read on that topic, it's like a tautological argument. It's like it's defined itself as being true. It's circular. Right. So it's like it's going to be the argument as far as I. can tell is like, oh, the markets are going to crash because it's incredibly disruptive and it's

going to be disruptive because the markets are going to crash. Like, as far as I can tell, that is the argument that I've seen from whatever work has been done in this way. Let's look at the facts. The facts are at first that we can literally have a world war and the markets might decline by like 8%. Second of all, with respect to like recently in this topic, let's look at what happened when like there's been data releases. Let's look at what's happened when Trump issued his executive order that said all files related to like aliens or something like that. And I'm like, oh my God. Yeah, true social posts. You put that out. You know, he wanted to take out there out there. Yeah. Trump's truth social post. What happened to the markets on that day? They were flat to up.

Yeah. What happened to the markets that week? They were flat to up. Good point. What happened to the markets with each one of these, like, data releases on a Friday, like roughly flat to up? I think one of them might have been like down 1% or something like that. But like, now I'm not sure what explanatory as like a financial markets like person, you know, I'm not saying that the like the R squared on that. Like the explanatory power of that data is super duper robust.

But I am saying that those are facts, and there is no factual basis to support the counter argument. And it's another reason why we're excited to really dive in on this. I've really wanted to find a partner in doing a white paper on this as well, and there's just been so much going on. But that's on my talk about, like, how do you define success and what are the milestones? That's one of them for me personally, and I hope to get there soon. But at the forum, we will have a panel to discuss this issue. And this will be with Matthew Tuttle, who's the CEO of Tuttle Capital Management. He's done some more interviews recently about his like ETF strategy and like what he thinks could be there.

Yeah, smart guy. I actually just did a Twitter space with him a few days ago. Oh, wonderful. Okay, cool. Good. And then I believe we'll also have like Pippa Malmgren on that financial markets. That's awesome. And her, it's funny, I initially learned about Pippa through this podcast called the Grant

Williams podcast that I listened to as like a financial nerd and enjoyed her perspective on like geopolitical risk and stuff like that. And then, you know, fast forward like seven years. And I learned that like, you know, more about who her father is. is and like that she's also very like interested in this topic and it's a strange world. It is. But the point being that like being able to sit down with like professionals and practitioners who can actually tell you if there's a fact basis to any of this narrative that exists

out there and where the opportunities might be. And opportunity in investing could be upside opportunity, downside opportunity, sideways opportunity. There's lots of ways to address this and position yourself in the financial markets for this. And then we haven't even addressed what I would describe as like the technological and innovation-based aspects of this, which we also have a panel on that will be. I've asked Mike Gold to moderate that panel. It'll be with a gentleman named Jonathan Miller and a woman named Susan Winterton, who helped put together this course at MIT called Confronting Unknowns. So they're really trying to, you know, at a technical institution like MIT,

bring this topic to bear and say, okay, like how do we develop like sense making in, for, you know, science, engineering, et cetera, with respect to this topic and be able to metabolize it intellectually at a place like MIT. And I tell you what, the energy from these, like, smart young people is through the roof. Yeah. Wanting to dive in on this subject, like, do their research projects and their research papers on this. So we will also be releasing a paper through that Confronting Unknown's course. It's great. To provide some intellectual underpinning there.

And I'm super excited about it. I'm super grateful for all the work that that team has done. There's people from multiple, like, UAP organizations, like from Ryan Graves' organization, Americans for Safe Aerospace. They've been an amazing partner and collaborator and developing that stuff. Mike Gold was there.

I was a guest lecturer, if you want to call it that guest speaker, like as part of that course. So, you know, we're not the sort of this, the technology and innovation component is also something that requires problem solving. And we're trying to address that head on. So sorry, I've, I've just been, you know, basically going through the panel. I hope it's interesting to you. And I hope it's informative for folks and like what to expect. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds incredibly fascinating because there are so many aspects to this. It's great that you have so many different panels and experts who are coming in to kind of give each aspect of time it deserves.

I can't wait to see how it all turns out. I know you have to go, Jordan, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you this one last question. And whatever spare time you have to be able to answer it, then by all means. But I'm just curious, and I think a lot of people would be curious to know, with the position that you're in and your history, as people have learned within markets and investments and entrepreneurship, Listen, to put it plainly, you're not a dumb guy. So with that said, what has you so convinced in this topic of the UAP topic that what we're dealing with, there is something there, enough there to make you, with everything in your background, dedicate so much time to it?

What has you convinced? The way that I've tried to frame this is, and this was really the framing for me, after I read Leslie Cain's 2017 article and then her, and I was like, who is Leslie Cain? And has she written any books? And yes, she wrote a book called UFOs, you know, Powhatan Generals go on the record. I read that book and was sort of confronted with this like, I mean, it's like the definition of cognitive dissonance. Like, you're trained to think that this like isn't true or can't be true.

And yet you have all this like evidence like here in terms of. you know, people telling, credible people telling their stories. So I think for me, the honest answer was, you know, I don't know what the truth is, but I'm convinced that the truth is sensational. Like, whether this is classified U.S. technology, whether this is, you know, a foreign adversary doing intelligence and reconnaissance over the continental United States at our sensitive military facilities, whether this is a previously undiscovered natural phenomena, whether this is some form of non-human intelligence, or whether this is something else that I am just not creative or smart enough to understand. If it's any one of those things, then the

is sensational. Yeah. Like, oh, and I forgot, if it's a sciop. Like, if it's all a sciop, that's also interesting. Yeah. Like, and in my mind, it's just the difference of like, is it the story of the decade, the century, or all of human history? And so when looked at through that lens, and, you know, in combination with sort of my intellectual interest that I described previously, like, I was like, oh, this is, this is a really

meaningful way to like spend my time and effort and and then all of that I think is supported by you know it's now supported by our leaders in Congress by legislation and with the with whistleblowers as the tip of the spear who you know many of the many of the have just impeccable credentials and credibility. And then of course to have these conversations like enclosed doors also on Capitol Hill and to realize how seriously this topic is taken. So I hope that that's an answer that resonates for you because that's been sort of my framework. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, and that's it's, it's really interesting, again, to put all that into context. So I, and I appreciate you sticking around a little bit longer. I know you've got to go, but it's super interesting. I'd love to talk to you again

in the future, and I can't wait to see how the disclosure forum goes. Definitely going to be keeping my eye on it for sure. And so, you know, again, just thanks again for coming on here today, Jordan, and I can't wait to hear what happens next. Likewise, Stephen. Thanks so much for having me. Have a good one. Absolutely, you too. Thanks, Jordan. Thank you again to Jordan for doing that and for taking all the time. I know his schedule is pretty pretty full, especially considering, you know, they are getting ready for that forum. And again, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to make it there. I know it's pretty short notice right now. It's just in a couple of days as I, you know, record this now here and put this out to you. But actually, what I'm going to be doing is going on vacation. So, and I am

going to be in that area. I just don't know if my vacation is going to line up with the actual forum itself. I'll see how things kind of work out. But speaking of which, being on vacation, I'm going to, are going to put out still some episodes of UAP on the greatest hits and So I don't want to, you know, be away for so long. I still want to get some UAP out there to you. So hopefully you'll enjoy some of the greatest hits episodes as I'm on a little Fourth of July sabbatical with my family. And I can't wait to come back.

I already can't wait to come back and get into a lot of things I'm looking forward to, you know, interviews with James Fox, interviews with Leslie Kane, interviews with Eric Burleson, interviews with Laura Eisenhower. There's a lot on the docket and actually even more on the congressional side with Annapolina Luna, Tim Burchett, Jared Moskowitz. I met all these people at the press conference and spoke to them about coming on to the show in the future.

And so those are conversations that are going to be had in the future. I need to set all those things up. But those are things that are kind of on the back burner coming up in the future that I hope to be able to get out to you in the next couple of months. Maybe not all in July, but as we move forward in the coming months. But for now, take a little time off. I'm still going to be active on social media, especially if something breaks during, you know, kind of summer vacation here.

So make sure you're following along on social media at UA Podcast 850 and I'm still going to be active on that end. So follow along and all the social media channels at UA Podcast 850 and search UAP podcast on YouTube as well for anything that comes on on that end. But when it comes to this episode here, just some of the things I wanted to reflect on there with Jordan. And I really do hope you enjoy that conversation because I know it's not your typical, like, you know, fancy kind of, you know, sexy information, the razzle dazzle of disclosure, if you will,

on like, you know, stories about close encounters or alien, you know, recoveries, crashes and, you know, crash recoveries and reverse engineering and bodies, those things, yes, are always exciting to get into and to think about and, you know, theorize about and figure out that that stuff really happen. This was more of like, again, like I said at the beginning, the real world implications. Like we can theorize, we can do all of our hypotheses and talk about the stories. But what about when this stuff really does happen? What about when this really does go down?

When this all becomes, you know, common knowledge through whatever disclosure, whatever means disclosure happens, it's most likely in some form or fashion going to happen, you know, somewhere down the road here. When no one really knows. Some people say disclosure has already happened. It really is kind of in the eye of the beholder. And I've mentioned that before, and it is true. Some people will say, well, we've already had disclosure. Others will say disclosure doesn't happen until we are told through official channels

that we have recovered bodies and craft. If it comes from the office of the president or if we've seen pictures from three-letter agencies of recovered craft, everybody has their own view on that moment where they can say, okay, this is now real actual disclosure that we are. experiencing here. The truth has come out. So whether or not you think that has happened already or you're still waiting for that moment, the fact of the matter is the world as general is still waiting for that answer, right? When you watch the news, they're still asking the question. So on that aspect, from their view, it hasn't happened yet. So what happens when they do come out and say on the news,

hey, now we know aliens are real? What kind of impacts are we going to have? And that's what this was all about here today. And it was really cool for me to get into some of those aspects. Like, again, those real world aspects about what can we expect when this does go down? And what can we expect from the Disclosure Forum coming up again, just a couple of days from here as we speak for Thursday, June 25th. And you heard some of the names that are going to be there from the Congress, from the Senate, and from the scientific and economic worlds, professors, you know, speakers, economists. We mentioned how putoff is supposed to speak there as well. So a lot of different segments of the population and of the discussion will be a part of this.

And I think that's why this disclosure forum is going to be the new big thing, the next big thing that people are going to discuss as far as, you know, what's being said and what is coming out in the news cycle for the UAP conversation. So we're going to keep our eye on that one and see what comes. from the Disclosure Forum. And again, like I said to Jordan, I can't wait to see what comes out from that because I know there's a lot writing on this one and there's a lot on the line. So thank you again to Jordan Flowers for doing that.

Keep an eye on the Disclosure Foundation and the Disclosure Forum, which, by the way, again, just to put out there, is completely free. If you want to go, if you didn't know about it, obviously this is very short notice, but if you want to go, it is happening. Like I said, on the June 23,

And if you can make like, you know, a last second flight to Washington, D.C., then by all means, because it is happening at the Russell Senate Office building in Washington, D.C. That's near the Capitol, I believe. They are live streaming on their website as well if you want to go to it. It's forum, f-o-r-U-M dot disclosure.org. So if it's, you know, not possible for you to make it there and see this all going down live in person, then you can go to the website, forum. dot org to watch the live stream that day. And it is an all-day events. If you do make it, building, it opens at 7 a.m., but the doors open at 8.30.

And the entire program, like I said, lasts all day from 9 a.m. to 4.30 p.m. There's going to be speakers in events and forums, obviously, all day long. Seeding is first come first serve. So the event is free. It's open to the public. Registration doesn't necessarily guarantee you entry. because it is first come, first serve. So if you are going to this, if you were planning on it, if you knew about it,

or if you're just finding out right now, keep all those things in mind. Doors open at 8.30. My assumption is that there's probably going to be a line. It's not a huge venue. So if you're planning on going to this, then I would suggest definitely going to Washington the night before and then getting there pretty early to secure your spot away from people to leave. Maybe you're going to have people coming in and out all day. But hopefully you're able to attend if that's something you want to do.

If not, you can watch online on their website. And worth mentioning, again, some of the people that we did say there, Avi Loeb. I don't know if we mentioned him. I don't think we did. Hal put off, I know we said that. Gotti Schwartz from NBC is going to be a moderator. Kristen Fisher, who does a great job, journalist from endless void studios. She's going to be a moderator.

And we mentioned Pippa Malgram. Now, if you don't know the name, she's the daughter of Harold Malgram, who goes down as an economist, a writer, a lobbyist, but someone who says that, you know, he was in the room in the 60s, the 70s, the 80s, and maybe even further along with different presidents talking about the truth about aliens and that he knew a lot about what was going on. And he did some interviews about that before he passed away in February of 2025. And Pippa was there for it all as well. And she is very much in the know because she heard all the stories from her dad.

And so that's in a very interesting, you know, addition to the speaker list there. And she is going to be on the economy part of this. But her dad being Harold Malgram was someone who was, as according to his own stories, was in the room with different presidents talking about the alien presence and how it would affect the economy and things of that nature. So really interesting addition there to hear that Pippa Malgram is going to be there. I'm super intrigued about what she might have to say at this forum. Tim Galedette is going to be there.

many people are part of this. And like I said, this is, and of course, members of Congress in the Senate, like Burleson and Luna and Burtchette, Senator Brown, Senator Gillibrand, a lot of the big names that have been involved with this on the D.C. side, all going to be a part of this forum. So it should be really interesting to say the least about, you know, how this thing is going to turn out. And that's why I was so happy to have Jordan on to discuss that and see where it's going to go. And there is one more thing, maybe the thing worth mentioning here before we're done. and I really wanted to hit on before we were done was the discussion surrounding what should be next. And this is actually something that I wanted to get to with Jordan, but we just ran out of time.

But it is absolutely worth mentioning here, meaning what should be next, meaning, you know, what should be requested, what should be sought after by those who have the ability to choose what is sought after. And this becomes, or this kind of became a point of topic, a point of conversation, especially on social media, or really because of social media, when Christopher Mellon, who is also going to be at this forum, he's part of the Disclosure Foundation, he put out on X three points, kind of, you know, three things that he would be going after as part of the effort in Washington with those, you know, who are influential to try to get released. and they were all pretty much about censored data and different things like that. And then it came about with someone who I think most of you are familiar with. Another big name in this space is UAP Gerb. And really good guy. You know, I mentioned before I met him, we were at the congressional hearing back in September.

And it was great getting to know him there and everything. And he's very passionate about the subject. So, and he's very knowledgeable about the subject, which if you know UAP Gerb, you know he's very knowledgeable about the subject and what. what has gone into the secrecy surrounding this onion that is the legacy program. And his contention, he actually retweeted Christopher Mellon's post about the three kind of like, you know, data sets that they want to go after having to do with, you know, radar and sensors and things like that. And GERB's contention was this is the wrong thing to go after.

We have information on this. You need to go after the information surrounding crash retrievals and the legacy program. And I did bring this up in private conversation with Jordan. Again, being that he's executive director of the Disclosure Foundation and Christopher Mellon is part of this, I brought this up with him. And I asked him about that post. And I asked him about, you know, why wasn't that something that Christopher Mellon mentioned? And again, I wish I could have brought this up with him during the interview.

It would have been pretty valuable. But I do want to tell you here now, at least, before we're all finished. And, you know, Jordan's point was it actually lined up, funny enough, a few days later, Chris put out the same thing on X, responding to GERB's retweet on X. And they both kind of said, in just on separate days, that it's a step-by-step process. That's the way they're approaching this. That is their philosophy. And the philosophy is that we've tried to go after the legacy program and the crash retrievals

and all these different types of things before. But it hasn't worked. They're stonewalled. their, you know, the files, the requests are left to collect dust on someone's desk. It gets killed by a staffer, and it never gets anywhere. So their contention is, we tried that before. We haven't gotten anywhere with that. So let's go a different way here.

And this is why they're doing this, going with, you know, going after the data sets, the sensor data and things like that when it comes to craft entering Earth, going back and forth, what's being seen in space by satellites. That's the stuff they're going after in an effort to at least put on. paper hard, provable data that shows there is something anomalous happening. It's not just,

and I don't say this in a negative way, but it's not just testimony under oath. That should be pretty significant and it is. But if they can give a real data set that is irrefutable that is peer reviewed, that will create more momentum,

more pressure, and then from there, more public discourse to naturally kind of evolve into that public pressure to then ask for those things that are being asked for. Like the legacy program, peeling back that onion, like the crash retrievals, information about reverse tech, you know, or technology that has been reverse engineered,

any biologics that have been recovered, like David Gresh has spoken about and many others in the past. Yes, those are the things that we want to know about, I want to see, but that was the answer I got, from Jordan, and then again, Chris Mellon put it out a few days later. So that's kind of the mission and the mindset of those behind the Disclosure Foundation right now and the message they're giving to those with the ability to move the ball down the field in Washington. They want the proofable data to put that out and create more momentum and more public pressure

to then give us those things that a lot of people are clamoring for and asking for. So very important, I'm sorry to say that for the very end here. I wish I could have been part of the interview and even maybe mentioned it earlier, but that is something that was on my mind that I wanted to get off my mind before we were done. And it's a super important part. So I'm glad I got to fit that in here before we were done. But all that said, I hope you took a couple of things away from that one today because it was a really cool kind of look into the intellectual, real world side here of the disclosure conversation.

So like I said, stick around, continue to subscribe and download the show wherever you. get your podcast and all the different channels, Apple and Spotify, all that good stuff. You know, just search for UAP. Spread the words. Spread the UAP gospel. Let your friends and family know that we've been doing this now almost five years. Actually, when I come back from vacation, and we're pretty much going to be right at that spot of five years of UAP. So can't wait to come back and get back on the saddle here after a 4th of July vacation.

But until then, like I said, follow along on social media at UA Podcast 850 and continue to download and subscribe to the the show and enjoy the greatest hits episodes that come out in the meantime as well. Always fun to look back on those and get a kind of new perspective, you know, a new ear on some of those episodes. Here are some things that we didn't notice before. That happens quite frequently, actually, when we look back at some of those older episodes and how it might relate to things that have happened since then that we didn't know that

can actually even existed until right now. So it's always fun to have those lookbacks on those episodes too. So look forward to that and everything to come here. here on UAP. So until then, it is Stephen Dean here saying, thanks so much again for everything and for all of the support. So until next time, it's Stephen Dean here saying, be well. Thanks so much.

Talk again soon right here on UAP, the Unidentified Alien Podcast.