UAP Unidentified Alien Podcast - UAP Weekly 6-17-24 A Conversation with Paul Hynek

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

Paul Hynek, son of the legendary Dr. J. Allen Hynek, sits down with Stephen Diener to discuss everything ranging from his father's work, being on set with Steven Spielberg, why we shouldn't rely on the government for disclosure, and why Neil deGrasse Tyson is so skeptical about the idea of extra terrestrials. All that and so much more in this fun and thought provoking discussion.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Welcome into another edition of UAP Weekly. I'm Stephen Deiner, back with you right here on the Unidentified Alien Podcast Weekly Edition. And today we get to have a really cool and fun conversation. I got to speak. I was privileged enough to speak with Paul Heineck. Of course, the son of the great Dr. J. Allen Heineck, you know, of course, in Project Blue Book. I don't think I have to tell you. It's a legendary name in the UFO community.

So I was kind of just put it out there. I said, you know, maybe I'll send Paul Heineck an email and he'll be great enough to come on the show. And that's exactly what happened. So really fun, really great conversation with Paul Heinek, really thought-provoking too. And I think you're, I enjoyed it and I think you're going to enjoy it as well. But before we get into that, just some updates on a few other things. There's a lot going on in the UAP world. my goodness gracious, it's like been hard to keep up with.

So if you weren't up to date with everything from last week, I actually almost made a UAP weekly episode last week concerning all these different reports that came out really almost at the same time. So what I ended up doing was I had a Twitter space for the first time ever. So if you didn't get to hear that, you can follow me, you can follow the show on Twitter at UA Podcast 850. and you'll find that up there. I retweeted it.

And that was on Friday night where I had this Twitter space discussing two things. Number one was all of these reports again came out last week. The Pentagon official from the Daily Mail that says that they had an encounter

with a oblong-shaped UFO that burned bright blue for seven minutes and there was so much energy it could have powered a whole city. So there was that that came out last week. You had the report from Dr. Michael Masters from Harvard, the professor from Harvard,

the professor from Harvard where he put out this paper asking, you know, have aliens believe he amongst us all this time? And he put a lot of research into that. And also talked about, you know, interdimensional beings. So it was very fascinating. And he was all over national news. I also got in touch with Dr. Michael Masters. And great guy. We're speaking behind the scenes. So I hope to have him on here on an episode of UAP weekly maybe in about a month or so. So there's that going on. You have so many other reports from Japan. their UFO caucus. For the first time ever,

they had a UFO caucus last week in the Japanese government. And all these different things happening all at once. So I spoke about that in the Twitter spaces and about, is this some type of subliminal messaging from the mainstream media to kind of wean the general population, kind of a slow drip of disclosure for the general population? Is that what's happening? Is that why things have kind of come out in almost a timed fashion?

Maybe, or maybe I'm looking too much into it. Or maybe it connects to the October timeline that we keep hearing about, of which Paul Heinek and I speak about during this discussion that we had specifically about what Danny Sheehan has said about the October timeline as well. So all of that happening last week and all of that spoken about in the Twitter spaces I did at UA Podcast 850. Also in that Twitter spaces, if you missed it, Jason Sands. Yes, that Jason Sands.

The firsthand insider, as he likes to be referred to as, which is what he told me when him and I spoke in a private conversation recently, had a three-hour conversation with Jason Sands outside of the Twitter spaces. And then he was kind enough to come on and take questions from many, many people about his experiences in the government programs of all these different programs surrounding alien activity and reverse engineering. and first-hand contact with aliens, as his story, of course, goes that he came face-to-face with an alien in 1993 or 1994. I think it was 94 out near the Nellis range. So Jason Sands

was a part of that Twitter space. It was two and a half hours long. If you didn't get to hear it, I did repost it on Twitter. And I'm also in the process of trying to repurpose it and put it out as well on YouTube. So it's accessible there. And also make it accessible. on the podcast to make it its own episode. Now, I'm going to have to do some work with it. I don't really want to put out a two and a half hour episode. I think that's a lot to ask of you to sit and listen to. If you don't mind, maybe I'll do that.

But in the end, I would like to try to find that way to make it a little bit shorter. But either way, I do want to put that out for you. So anybody who's not on Twitter, you still have access to that discussion. Because as of right now, Jason isn't doing any interviews. on any other shows. He's waiting for the documentary with James Fox, James Fox to drop, hopefully in the next month or two. But also, so that's really going to be like the closest you come to as far as having an interview

with Jason Sands is the, the Q&A that basically took place on this Twitter space is with him and I, and so many of you who listened and asked questions during that conversation. So I'm going to try to bring that out and also put it on YouTube, like I said, but it was quite the eventful week last week. There was a lot going on. There was a lot to cover. And then we capped it all off with a two-hour-plus discussion with Jason Sands on Twitter spaces.

Wild, wild week. But also something that happened last week was my discussion with Paul Henick. He and I spoke on Friday. And I've been waiting since then to put this interview out for you on a new episode of UAP Weekly. Really great discussion. We talk about Nilda Gras Tyson and his views on the UFO phenomenon. Of course, we talk about

his father, Dr. J. Allen Heineck, and what it was like for Paul growing up up around all these different things that his father was into and just so much more and even what Paul thinks about all this and what he makes of it. Where does he see all this going with government disclosure and is it

aliens or is it something else that we get to a lot and so I won't make you wait anymore. So now here's my interview, my discussion with Paul Heineck. Enjoy. Paul, thanks so much for joining here today. My pleasure, Steve. even looking forward to our conversation.

Yeah, absolutely. So before we get into, I guess, the obvious, right, about your father, the great Dr. J. Allen Heineck and also the currently landscape of everything that I want to talk about with you here today. Before we get into all that, I want to find out about Paul Heinek. I want to know Paul more. Tell us more about yourself and what you have going on and everything that you're into these days. Yeah, so I'm one of five kids of my parents. And people tend to think of my father as a UFO guy, but he's really a scientist.

So we grew up in a scientific academic household with a healthy heaping of UFOs. I don't know life without UFOs. And just always had an interest and appreciation for the kind of edges of accepted science. Yeah, that's great. And when it comes to that now, are you kind of still, you know, investigating that in an official capacity? Or is that kind of like something that you're just interested in on the side? Yeah, you know, my career is a little bit odd. I, I, the dividing line between my work and hobbies is kind of blurry at times.

I am now with my brother Joel working on adding to my father's class. system of close encounters of the first, second, and third kind, because that speaks really well to the type of encounter, but it doesn't yet get into the type and strength of evidence. So that's something that we would like to add to that classification system. Really interesting. I actually want to touch on that in a little bit, but just kind of starting from the beginning a little bit. You mentioned what the household was like when you were growing up. Can you kind of expect? in that a little bit. What was, I mean, were you able to grasp kind of the, you know, the gravity of what was happening around you of what your father was investigating and working on for the U.S. government? Well, I think however you grow up, good or bad is normal to you at the

time. And it's in hindsight that you look back and you say, oh, this was extra interesting or that was, or that sucked or whatever. It just seemed normal. You know, I, I just don't, it was something that happened all the time. None of us children really needed to lean into the phenomena. I guess I did probably more than the others. There were kind of two generations. There were three kids, a gap of 12 years, then my little brother and me. And their early generation is more Project Blue Book.

And the second generation, my brother and I were more close encounters of the third kind, the movie. and I would go with my father to investigate sightings and to various conferences and just thought it was fascinating. I don't know how you can look at this phenomena, no matter what you think of the evidence and not find it fascinating, right? Absolutely. And for myself, I can speak to that. I got the bug probably around 20 years old. I was actually always kind of hesitant to get into it. It kind of quite frankly, it freaked me out a lot growing up.

And what corrupted you? What took you over to the dark side? I think it was two things, actually. And, you know, both of these subjects, I guess, are kind of debated a lot. But you have the ancient Egypt side of things. I always found that interesting. And that kind of connected to me with Edgar Casey. So I watched a lot of.

documentaries concerning both of those things, and that piqued my interest. And then the Philadelphia experiment really piqued my interest. And I'm like, what the heck is going on there? They teleported a battleship and there's aliens involved. So I was around like 20 years old when I started kind of looking into those things. And well, now here we are three years on UAP. And it's been a wild ride. Well, you know, it's interesting. I think in this field there are two kinds of people there. There are those who feel they've had a personal experience with some kind of alien intelligence and maybe repeated. And those who haven't, but are just really interested in the phenomena. I think both you and I are in that ladder camp. And it makes us somewhat flexible.

We just want to find out what the truth is. Let the chips fall where they may. Extraterrestrial, interdimensional. I don't have a horse in the race. I lean towards. various things that seem more likely, but it just feels like it's going to be a while before we uncover what we eventually feel to be the ultimate truth or truths of what could be a multi-layered phenomenon. I think it's a really good way to put it. And actually kind of on that note, was there something, you know, maybe that you came across while you were at a conference with your father or just in anything during your father's time? Was there something that you remember that kind of sticks out in your mind where you're like, if you had to say to somebody, if they said,

Paul, how could you think the stuff is real? What story would you give them to say, well, I saw this or I heard this? This is why I look into it so much. Well, I think I would first set the stage with a quote that's often attributed to Richard Feynman, that there are two kinds of people in the world. Those who are okay with questions they cannot answer and those who are not okay with their answers being questioned. A lot of people when looking at the UFO phenomena or any other, say, supernatural or odd phenomena, find it intellectually uncomfortable to accept that there is sufficient evidence to merit further study or to demonstrate that there is a phenomena if they don't have

ready-made answer. So an example would be, yeah, I know the U.S. Navy has said we see lots of objects in the sky and in the water and we're concerned about the safety of our aviators, but I don't know how they get here and they just stop because they don't have an answer. We are pattern-seeking mammals. And without a pattern, it's very uncomfortable to say, yes, I believe in this or I accept the weight of the data to suggest a phenomena, but I don't have an answer. So for me, it's not so much this or that case, but it's more government pronouncements. It's like Roswell, they, you know, the base commander said, we captured a flying saucer. I think that the personnel on staff at the time was sufficiently advanced to tell the difference

between rubber duct tape and balsa wood from something presumably of of Mediterranean origin. The Navy, as I mentioned, it said they see lots of crafts. These, to me, are more compelling than any single or group of eyewitness cases. It's sort of the background information that, distills all of these cases into these pronouncements. You know, the report that came out in 2022, it said twice that this is from the alphabet soup

of all these government agencies from the intelligence community that they view UAP, as they like to call them, as a significant threat. And I don't think they would say that without any cause. So to me, it's mostly reading between the lines, or official government pronouncements, whether or not they meant to cause any particular reaction

that carry the most weight for me. That's interesting. I wonder, kind of going back, you mentioned Roswell, and that made me think of something when it comes to fellow scientists, namely Oppenheimer and Einstein. And I'm wondering if you know, if there's any truth to the rumors,

that Oppenheimer and Einstein both were called into Roswell to help understand what was going on. Have you ever heard that before? Is there truth to that? I have not, so I don't know anything about it at all. That's pretty cool. Yeah. It comes from, and gosh, her name escapes me. I actually did an entire episode about her, her name escapes me. But she was a professor and her older age and everything. And she says, and she never changed her story, that she was Einstein's assistant. And she was there at Roswell with Oppenheimer and Einstein. And she saw all of these, you know, smaller, not tiny, but, you know, smaller great aliens that they talked about, four feet and everything like that.

And it's just something that's always intrigued me. And I'm so I just wondered, I thought I would throw that out there, giving your scientific background with you and your father, that was something that ever came up. Yeah, no, it didn't. I'd be intrigued to learn more. But, yeah, I've not heard that. Yeah, it's interesting. I'll try to find the name. After we're done here, I'll go back in my, my episodes, and I'll find her name. I'll email it to if you'd like to look into it more.

And I just asked Chad GPT, and it's not aware of that. So, yeah, who knows? Not even chat. GPT knows. Okay. Well, we'll look into this one a little bit more. Outside of that, though, and I'm curious to kind of get your thoughts on this, and maybe even what, if the discussion ever came up between you and your father and if he got blowback on this end, the religious aspect of things. It's always something that I come back to personally when I think about the Vatican and what type of role they might play when it comes to disclosure and what they've known over the centuries and things of that nature. Do you feel like religion and not even so much just Christianity,

but religion in general might play a barrier of some sort to people. accepting what's kind of going on and even to the government disclosing what's going on? Yeah, well, established religious frameworks don't really have a place for aliens. That said, the Catholic Church has put out an ecumenical stating, well, at an ecumenical conference, has stated that they believe there is life elsewhere in the universe. So I think they don't want to get caught flat-footed as they have multiple times in the past. Right. You know, there have been numerous what we call cults that were doomsday cults

that predicted the end of the universe or end of the world on a certain date. And yet when that end didn't happen, largely those cults don't go away. So even if you believe that aliens are inconsistent with your religious beliefs and then you start to believe in or accept the weight of the evidence for aliens, it doesn't mean you're going to say, hey, my religious beliefs need to be changed or scrapped because of this new evidence. I think people would largely become fortified in their religious beliefs because that's what gives them comfort.

Yeah, I think so. I think you're right. It's something that I just see pop up here and there, and it's just always kind of sticks in my mind. You know, what type of role does that play? And so. Yeah. And, you know, people don't typically adopt religious beliefs because of what we would call evidence.

They adopt them because they were brought up in that religion, or they feel they've had a personal experience. And so that's not, in their mind, inconsistent with any. kind of discovery about aliens, I don't think. Yeah, that's interesting. It's a good point. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S.

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trial today at Shopify.com slash UAP. Go to Shopify.com slash UAP. That's Shopify.com slash UAP. Business owners in California know there's a lot to keep up with. The rules change constantly. Guidance shifts. Even a small payroll mistake can turn into an expensive problem. And that's why so many business owners visit

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Guardian HR guides you with the clarity and confidence you need so you can stay protected and be focused on growth. Don't wait for a problem, prevent one. Go to GuardianHR.com. GuardianHR.com. I'm going to shift gears a little bit here because I actually watched the show Project Blue Book that History Channel did. And I forget the actor's name, but it was the actor who played a little finger in Game of Thrones, played your father, Dr. J. Allen Heineck. Did you have any consulting when it came to that on the History Channel? Did they come to you and say, hey, you know, we want to find out more about.

this was that largely fictional you know it was it dramatized or was it based off of a lot of things that really happened so first for the record that very fine actor's name is aiden gillen thank you who played my tv father and he's fantastic and yes both my brother joel and i were consultants on the show and typically when you're a consultant on a movie or tv show you're in the background and they just call you when they have a question but because both my brother and I have significant experience in Hollywood, I asked that we'd be given the pre-production scripts and that I could go to the set.

And they said, sure. So I went to the set multiple times, watched filming, and both my brother and I read all of the scripts that were pre-production, meaning you could still make changes before they were finalized and gave significant input along the way. Oh, okay, that's good. So were you guys happy with the way those turned out? when it was, you know, when the seasons came out and all?

Yeah. You know, to your other question, the show is not strictly accurate, but the show is meant to be authentic, that it captures the overall essence of the characters of my parents. And TV mom, Laura Minnell, was also an excellent choice. And sort of captured the overall flavor of the times of this cold, war, paranoia, and espionage, and increasing number of very credible cases. And so I think the show did a really good job for what it wanted to do. Yeah, it was great. I always enjoyed it. So,

good job. Let's throw that out there. So going back to kind of that time period for your father, you know, he started out as a skeptic. A lot of people know that, but kind of ended up where, you know, we figured, hey, there's really something going on here, really couldn't deny it anymore. Was it a collection of things that led to that conclusion for him? Or was there one specific thing that made him say, wow, okay, there's really something going on that I can't explain? Yeah. It was more the accumulated weight of the data that allowed for him to see patterns of the data of highly credible Air Force pilots who have good vision, who respond well under pressure,

who are trained to spot things in the sky, and other credible witnesses seeing similar type things. And indeed, sometimes a pilot would see something here, and it can be picked up on radar over there, establishing a flight path, et cetera, that really made him feel that this is just something that I can't continue to debunk. So he became not a believer because scientists don't believe in data, but an acceptor of the accumulated weight of the data. And I think that's where a lot of people land nowadays, too.

It's, you know, even people who would say maybe five years ago or even three years ago where they would say, you know, I'm not sure about this, all this UFO stuff I see on the news. And then you have David Grush in front of Congress. And you start to hear more about these things. speaking about, you know, pilots reporting sightings, Ryan Graves being one of them. He was in front of Congress as well with David Grush. So it just, it kind of feels like what your father went through is almost what the, you know, collective consciousness is going through these days where they, you have a lot of people starting

to say, man, I really can't, you know, understand or explain away some of this stuff anymore. Yeah, I think he, um, traced a narrative arc that many others have done. And I think he helped a lot of people because he's a pretty, by the book's astrophysicist who was pretty honest about what he felt, given the sometimes muzzles of the Air Force. I think people felt he was a credible expert in the field, who over time became more and more outspoken,

that something is happening here. and we should take a look into it. I think that helped a lot of people hop on the train and go for the ride. No, absolutely. There's no doubt about that. I want to get back to the Hollywood thing a little bit, but I have to ask,

and maybe this is out of line, and if it is, you can tell me, because I don't want to have you speak badly behind anybody's back or anything like that. But I want to get your opinion. You talk about astrophysicist and scientists in this subject. Nilda Gras Tyson is an end that comes to mind that some people kind of look at and say, like, how do you deny what's going on here?

I mean, have you followed what he has said in the past and everything when it comes to this topic? Yeah. My brother Joel knows Neil deGrasse Tyson, and I'm friends with Michael Shermer, who is the editor and founder of Skeptic magazine, and Seth Shostak, who is the lead astronomer of SETI. I think those are the three best known critical voices or skeptics about UFOs. I feel, I think Neil is perhaps the most dismissive of the three, but I feel they're all intellectually honest. And indeed, I've debated with Michael Shermer.

I've had Seth Shostak on panels with me. And, you know, the thing is that people who... are passionate about UFOs can't understand how somebody would not believe it. But I don't feel that way. I think a reasonable person can look at the phenomena and come to the conclusion that there's nothing there. It's not a slam dunk that aliens are here or visited us, are there from another dimension or extraterrestrial? And the evidence that's accrued can be interpretable.

it in a way to not come to the conclusion that there's a real phenomenon. It's just not that cut and dry. And the classification system that I'm developing with my brother is designed to address that because for whatever reason, most of mainstream science just has poo-poohed the evidence for UFOs. And so what I'd like to do is help in-class. in experience your communities and not just UFOs, a more proactive approach to gathering evidence that is science-friendly, that's unambiguous and verifiable. I really don't care what the U.S. government says or does.

They're a bad faith, corrupt central actor, but I think we can make progress by having better, more fruitful interactions between experiencers and mainstream science like Neil deGrasse Tyson. Yeah, I agree. I mean, if there's a way where everybody can kind of come together, because I think that kind of hurts, you know, the discussion. And it's funny because I think a lot of people want the same thing. They're just trying to find answers, right? That's what I do. That's what you do. Right. And on a different scale. Yeah. And scientists are cautious because science needs to have replication and verification. And without that, that's the scientific method. Without that, they're just going to. to be hesitant to say, hey, there's something going on here. So, you know, a lot of people think that scientists are, you know, they erect this Spartan intellectual shield wall of dogma against any kind of heresy of beliefs

or theories that are outside the mainstream. I think it's much more prosaic. Most scientists are busy. If you have an astrophysicist who focused on red dwarfs, they're not even that comfortable speaking about black holes because that's not their specialty. And they may hear about all these theories of ancient archaeology or aliens, but they don't know which ones are the most credible.

They don't have time. They're teaching. They're publishing. They have a family. They're on the lecture circuit. They're applying for a grant. there's not a lot in it for them to assess these claims to the extent that would make them comfortable that there's something going on. It's just they have other interests and they're just leading busy lives.

So I don't begrudge any of these scientists for not coming down and saying, yes, this is a real phenomena. Because again, I think you can honestly look at this evidence and not be convinced. Interesting. Well, someone who is sounds convinced anyway from a paper that just came out, if you're familiar with it, was Dr. Michael Masters from Harvard. Paleontologist and seems like a pretty brilliant man has come out with this report that really has kind of caught the mainstream over the past couple of days that is possible that aliens, extraterrestrials or interdimensional beings, he kind of left the gray area there on however

we want to refer to them, but have been living on Earth and have been here and maybe, you know, or in mountains and volcanoes and underground, really a lot of the theories that, you know, late people have put out before. But now you have this Harvard profession. Yeah, insane. What do you make of that? Is that just in a case of somebody who dedicated their time to it? And this is the conclusion that they came to. So, Mike is a friend of mine. And in a presentation, I gave it contact in the desert a couple of weeks ago. With his kind permission, I used some of his slides in a presentation I gave because I think he is the leading authority on the theory that perhaps some or all aliens that we encounter are actually our own species from the future.

And, you know, once you start to unravel the UFO phenomena, you quickly get past the point of thinking something is just way too out there. and time travel seems to be ridiculous to many people at first, but he is a very smart guy. He's put together a good case for why that may be at least part of the phenomenon. It's one of the questions, right? I mean, it's one of the big questions that people pose, and it's extremely fascinating, which is why I like talking about. I like to bring it up.

And actually, I reached out to Dr. Masters recently, and we're hoping to connect sometime mid to late July. So, hopefully about a month, he'll come on here and I'll be able to talk to him, which I'll look forward to him. He's, he'd be a great guest. He's very articulate, and he's got a really good case that he makes. It's fantastic. I look forward to it. Well, you know a lot of people, don't you, Paul? It's like, you had dinner with him last night. So that's great. Well, it's not really that large of a field. So if you spend a fair amount of time at conferences, etc., you start to hang around all these folks.

You come across him. Getting back a little bit to the Hollywood portion, because I do want to ask about the close encounters, you know, what that was like kind of making the movie, what that was like for you, for your father, kind of interacting, giving the input to Steven Spielberg, and kind of connected to what you're doing now.

So going back to that, what was that process like? Because we actually did see a cameo of him toward the end of the movie, right? I don't think a lot of people know that. Yeah, yeah. So Spielberg and the production company bought the rights to the title, Close Encounters of Third Kind from my father and his publisher. And yeah, he was the technical advisor for the movie and had a cameo role. And in a curious twist, in one episode of the TV show Project Blue Book, they focused on the movie Close Encounters.

and I was there that day on the set. And at the end of that episode, as my TV mom and dad are walking to the camera, the camera pulls back and shows a cameraman and a crane being lifted in the air, and that was me. So I had a cameo role as a consultant in the TV show about my father, in the episode about the movie in which he was the technical advisor and had a cameo role. And then that night, I went out drinking with Aden Gillen until 7 in the morning. Fantastic.

Now, that's a story. That sounds like there's a little bit of almost like in Seinfeld, yada, yada, yada. We drank until 7 a.m. I feel like there's a little bit in between there. Maybe we could touch on another time, but it sounds like a lot of fun. That's cool. I was like a full circle moment. Yeah.

Yeah, it was very meta. Right. Very cool. That's funny, though. So but kind of connecting to your work now, right? You and your brother kind of adding to this scale, right, of close encounters. So what does that look like? What type of work are you doing on that where, you know, basically how will that end up?

And what will the new definitions be? Yeah. So we're still, it's still a work in progress. one of the objectives is to demonstrate or help experiencers, if they so choose, to demonstrate the objective reality of the intelligences they claim to communicate with. And so to do that, we need to be able to present, as I mentioned, unambiguous and verifiable evidence So what we're doing is categorizing by type and strength the nature of the evidence, such that experiencers, to the extent they can influence, likely not control these interactions,

can try to obtain this type of evidence as opposed to the random bits and things that we've received that have not moved the needle for leading scientists. Interesting. So what do you feel like the end game is? Is it just kind of bring clarification on some of these things that we don't have clarification on? Well, put it this way. You mentioned Neil deGrasse Tyson. What if Neil deGrasse Tyson went on CNN and said, you know what?

I've seen evidence that convinces me that aliens are here. Imagine the tectonic shift that would make. Or Michael Schumer says Shostak and others, if they came out and said, I have done a 180, I now accept that the UFO phenomena is very real. That would have an unbelievable impact on society and note there's no government involvement necessary for that.

So that's what the endgame is, is to get, collect and present science-friendly evidence to scientists who would then publicly say, there's compelling evidence here, now what? That's great. I think that's really, it's brilliant, really, because you're taking it to a different perspective. You want to bring the scientist's perspective to have scientist evidence, right? So I think that's... Well, you know, it's just the government has proven to be a bad faith actor. A lot of people don't believe them.

But people still believe scientists. People, these scientists that we mentioned, they're very credible. And we have them and others, scientists who say, I've observed the evidence and I find it compelling, that would constitute what I call exposure, which is far more effective, I believe, than disclosure. Really interesting. Well, I look forward to hearing more about that as you continue your work on it.

That's really fascinating, actually. I never heard of that. But talking about the government, I'm curious, what is, do you see parallels at all between how people viewed Project Blue Book to how people view currently now Arrow, ARO, are there parallels there at all?

because you're just talking about with those two things, just if we put them, you know, in a nutshell, side by side, we're talking about government programs that were created to investigate the UFO phenomenon. Yeah, I don't really know. I don't really monitor how people feel about the government agencies. To me, it's not the purpose of government to disclose this information. And even though, you know, people,

like Danny Sheehan, another friend of mine who's an amazing man, along with Chris Mellon and others, are applying great pressure in new ways to force governmental disclosure. And we'll see on October 18th how fruitful this latest wave of efforts will prove to be. But I just don't care about what they say or do. And so I'm just much more focused on science and scientists as opposed to government and government bureaucrats. Well, on that note, then, I mean, do you think it's a waste of time? Like, you know, when it comes to politicians like, you know, Marco Rubio or Timber Chats or Jared Moskowitz, some of these people, Senator Jellbrand, who publicly pushed for disclosure or, you know, Chuck Schumer, who was trying to get that act through the NDAA. I mean,

Is it a waste of time? Is it fruitless because there's just so much bureaucracy that's just going to block it anyway? It's not a waste of time. And it may well produce monumental results. It's just not something I'm personally interested in or going to devote much time to you. I mean, I spoke at a fundraiser for Danny Sheehan's new nonprofit two weeks ago. and I believe very much in what he's doing and will help him. But for me, my efforts are, I think, best allocated to an end-around approach

that is not dependent on what the government deigns to release to us. I think you're taking the right to the correct route there, Paul. Well, there's enough super smart people, including Steve Bassett, Richard Dolan and others who are all working on disclosure. I don't think I have much value to add to that. So I may be able to help going a different direction. Well, I think it's great because then at that point, I mean, you mentioned those are great names that are working on one side,

and then you and your team are working on another side. And I think it is worth, for the record, I do think it is worth, you know, the work that we see. Like you say, you know, the Richard Dolans and Stephen Bassett to the world and Danny Sheehan, who I met once. I had the privilege of medium one time. He's brilliant. They're doing great work, right?

On the backside, Chris Mellon, Louisville, Lizondo, all these people are doing fantastic work. And I hope it's fruitful. But I think it's important that what you're doing as well. So you kind of team up on both sides. And I think that's the best way to go about it. Yeah. You never know the U.S. government hasn't been caught in the crosshairs of Danny Sheehan before like this.

So it might work. And I certainly hope it does. But while he's working on that, I'll go on the other fringes of science. and try to produce some fruit there. That's fantastic. Hey guys, so before we get back into the conversation, I just want to talk about something that affects all of us. And it's scary, starting something new, right?

It's hard and it is kind of terrifying because you think about all the work that goes into it. Are you going to be able to succeed? What new challenges am I going to face? It's that uncertainty. But I know how that is because I can think back when I started UAP. I was just hoping for the best. And it's just like that when you're starting your own business. That's why Shopify is so great and why I'm so happy to be able to talk about them.

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That's Shopify.com slash UAP. I got to ask you. And if you haven't heard too much about it, that's fine. But we, you know, we mentioned Danny Sheehan. And he's been quoted recently as talking about disclosure in a timeline. He's been quoted as talking about October being some type of disclosure event, sometime late October. And the only reason to bring this up is because in some of the people that I talk to, there's a couple of people that I talk to personally in military intelligence analysts who have spoken to me.

and I've heard the same information from them before Danny Sheehan said it. So when Danny Sheehan said it, I was like, oh, shoot, there might be something to this. Yeah. I mean, do you have a read on that? Because I think it's kind of interesting. Well, the most recent law that Danny helped draft and get passed forces all agencies of the federal government to release any information they have on or before October 18th. 18th, right. Okay.

So I call that disclosure day. So we'll see. And hopefully on October 19th, we'll all be happy fellows. But I don't know. It's just I don't know what secrets the government has. And I don't know what secrets they will actually disclose. Right. You're right.

That's the ultimate question. Maybe on October 19th or October 20th, you and I and Danny Sheehan can have a huge conversation together. we can all get together and talk about it here. Yeah. You know, just like if someone feels that aliens are extraterrestrial in origin, then it's probably likely that that planet, that civilization across the universe, is not sending their A-team all the way here or that there are some kind of AI-sensient bots. But it's also likely that if aliens are here,

and are manipulating us or pulling the strings of various organs of various governments, that the decision to disclose information may not rest with our human governments. It could be controlled by the same aliens who have come here and seem to have incredible technology and sway over us. Yes. It's such a good point, and it's not a point that I think is brought up enough, right? Because we talk about the human side of things, right? We talk about the government, the bureaucracy, even when it comes to religion. But there is that factor, and it might really be a factor.

Yeah. Interesting. On that note, though, I do wonder, who do you think, because, again, all these different factors that we've talked about, who do you think has the most to lose from disclosure? And whatever disclosure might look like, right, whatever that might mean when it comes to, okay, alien life exists. Maybe it's just a three basic truce that David Brush talks about. you know, we have materials, we have biologics, and they're real.

So maybe even if it's just that, who do you think it has the most to lose? You know, if, let's say, whatever happens, it's on October 18th or something else, there's a flying saucer, the lands on the lawn of the White House, it's really hard to know how the threads of national security will be torn apart, or if this or that religion will go away, or don't. double down, or if a government is toppled or people are angry that it didn't disclose the information before, or are paranoid about the new alien presence that might still be here, I really don't know who has the most to lose in that scenario, because I think it could be,

even though an unbelievably significant, one of the most significant events of history, I don't know exactly how it would unfold and who it might impact the most. And I think also we might not know the impacts for quite some years because we had just be in a period of global shock for some amount of time, I imagine. That's interesting. And it's just one of those questions, right? And maybe that's one of those questions that's asked behind the scenes. Well, it's also one of those questions that I'm comfortable not being able to answer.

And that's totally fine. Hey, I mean, we will take speculation here as well. That's completely fine. Before we wrap up here, though, this has been fantastic. Thank you, Paul, Nick, for joining the show, and I really enjoyed this conversation. What is your gut to tell you? Everything that you've gone through. And I know, you know, we deal with data and everything on that kind of realm.

But if you search deep down, everything that you've gone through throughout your life and everything that you've seen from your father, what does your gut tell you about the UAP phenomenon? Interdimensional. Interesting. So interdimensional how? So what would that mean for people who can't wrap their head around that when it comes to the interdimensional beings? Well, I find, and Jacques Valet has said, you know, if when the dust settles, the entirety of the UFO phenomena is extraterrestrial, he'll be bored.

It certainly seems to many of us that extraterrestrial may be a part of it, but not the entirety of the phenomena. If we liken the size of the known universe to the continental U.S., we are less than a speck of dust in Canada. Kansas. And even though we've been beaming out episodes of I Love Lucy, et cetera, for many decades, it's non-trivial for somebody to find us. It's a very, very big universe. So how do they find us? And if they come, whether they are biological beings or AI sentinels, why aren't they more overt in their contact with us? Okay, they may be manipulating us. I don't know. But I have problems with how they would find us and why they would care. So for me, interdimensional answers those questions much better,

that they may be related to us in some way and adjacent to us, such that with their technology, coming into our dimension and going back to theirs, may be a fairly trivial endeavor. So if they're interdimensional, and again, this is all hypothetical, are they human?

I mean, are we talking about, I know we kind of mentioned this theory earlier when it comes to time traveling. Is it, you know, mixed together time traveling and interdimensional? Or are we just talking about beings that our minds can't conceive because we can't conceive all the different dimensions.

Hell of I know. These are the questions, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I have been pursuing what I think is a potential route to interdimensional communication. And it's fascinating, but I don't presume to have those kind of $64,000 answers. What would interdimensional communication look like? What is it as far as you know what you're researching there? How would that go about?

So I was having lunch seven or eight years ago with a friend of mine who incidentally crashed, landed tardigrades on the moon, who asked me where my father thought the UFOs may come from. And I said, well, he didn't know, but he felt extraterrestrial certainly didn't seem to explain everything and that there may be some interdimensional components. And he said, well, you should read a book called Alien Information Theory. I said, Alien Information Theory, that's a pretty cool book. Of course, what's it about? He said, well, it's about DMT.

And I said, what's DMT? And he said, it's the most powerful psychedelic substance known, and one of the better known variants is ayahuasca. I said, really? Okay. And so a couple hours later that day, I met a couple hours later that day, I met a new friend, and he was talking about what he does, and he mentioned he does DMT facilitations.

Like, wow. So long story short, purely in the interest of science, I took one for the team and started experiencing DMT. And the premise of the book, Alien Information Theory, is that it's not a hallucinogenic drug, but that it's a interdimensional technology. And, you know, this may sound whack-a-doodle, but we're talking about UFOs. So we're already past the point of garden variety science.

And so I'm fascinated by the potential, which might be the biggest Hail Mary of all time, that the experiences one feels they have while taking, in DMT might actually be real. And if they are, it's fascinating to me because I can't do a CE5 and summon a flying software. I just can't. But I can create a situation and partake in DMT and have an experience that may be another dimension.

And I once asked the intelligence that I felt that I encountered. if they were related to what we perceive as UFOs and aliens. And the answer I got was that they couldn't explain in a way that I could understand. And I thought, well, look, if DMT machine elves, as Terrence McKenna calls them, are actually related to aliens that we see, yeah, I can understand how I wouldn't understand that connective tissue. So to me, it's been a fascinating area of research that is very different from what my friends are doing for disclosure. And, you know, like I said, it's a Hail Mary, but it's something I think is actually important and fascinating. That's exactly the word I was about to use is fascinating, just completely fascinating.

That's truly something. So I guess we wrap up here today. Thank you again for so much time for doing this. How do you see this all playing out? Let's imagine. I know we mentioned October and all the things that, you know, everybody's trying to do behind the scenes. Let's fast forward to, I don't know, January 1st, 2026.

So a year and a half from now. Where do you think we are? How do you see this all playing out? Maybe it's just in the next year and a half. Don't really know, but I, I'm as skeptical as Neil deGrasse Tyson is of UFOs, I'm probably every bit as skeptical about meaningful government disclosure. So I don't, I would not be surprised one bit if we're in more or less the same boat we are now

and that we've had more whistleblowers come forward. and there's no great shift in overall public beliefs. I like to say, but I kind of lean that way as well. But I guess my time will tell, you know, we're just going to keep doing the best that we can and ask the questions and just go from there. Before we go, Paul, how can people follow what you're doing? I know you've written a few books and everything like that.

So you're a part of the Hollywood Disclosure Alliance. So how can people follow what you're doing to kind of keep up with your work? Well, I've got a very anemic social media footprint, but I'm on Twitter at Paul Heinek. That's probably the only place you can see the relatively few things I do online. Well, you do great work, Paul. Thank you so much for coming on UAP today, for having this discussion. I think it was great. I really enjoyed it, and I think it was really insightful.

So hopefully we can have you back on. We can keep in touch and maybe do this again down the road. Sounds good. And there you have it. Really cool, really fun interview with Paul Heenig. So happy I got to talk to him. I was such a privilege. It was one of those interviews if I'm being completely honest.

And I always try to be honest with you. There were points where I just felt completely out of my league. And I hate to say that. And I hope it didn't come across that way. I was trying to hold my own and tread water and keep my head above water, whatever cliche or analogy you want to use. But he's just so much smarter than me. And he's just,

in very different circles than I am with all those names that he mentioned. So I hope it didn't come across where it was like, you know, I was intimidated or anything. But I was trying to do my best and I think it turned out okay. So hopefully you enjoyed that. I know I'm kind of ashamed to admit that. But for real, I just, that guy's on a different level. So it was really cool to be able to talk to him and bring that discussion to you right here on UAP. So hopefully it was enjoyed by all.

coming up in the future. There's a lot. My goodness gracious. So I am in the middle of writing episode 81, and if you didn't see the tease on what I put out on Twitter, it's episode 81, and the title is Angels, Demons, and Aliens, the connection to the spiritual realm.

And it's a heavy-duty one. I have some of it written, so I'm in the process of doing that, and hopefully I can finish that up soon enough to get that episode out to you. that one's kind of a passion project. There's a lot that's going into it. So I am really looking forward to finishing it and presenting it.

It should be quite the episode, hopefully. Outside of that, as far as episode 81 is concerned, the more interviews to come. I spoke to Nick Pope today, actually, recorded an interview with Nick Pope. He's awesome. I always love having Nick on the show. And it was a really good discussion there about some of the current events happening. and Nick puts always really good perspective on some of these things. So I'll have that interview out on Thursday.

So look forward to my interview with Nick Pope coming out in just a few days if you're hearing this today on Monday as I release this interview with Paul Heinek. Also coming up next week, I'll be having a discussion with Michael Ian Black. And you'll know him from a lot of different TV shows and movies. He's part of the Hollywood Disclosure Alliance. And he's one of those guys in Hollywood that has. you know, come out to talk about the UAP discussion. And he has his own show and his own podcast where he talks about these things. It's quite vocal about it on social media.

So I'll be talking to Michael Ian Black and have that interview out next week. Really cool. Look forward to talking to him. He's a comedian as well. So it should be a different spin on the subject. Hopefully a lot of fun there and a fun interview when I get to talk to him. And then to top it all off, I want to update you. on the Las Vegas alien situation.

So like I said, there's a ton going on and I'm trying to keep up with it all. A lot of the stuff I spoke about at the beginning of the episode, and I didn't even get to talk about Scott Roder in the Las Vegas alien situation. So Scott and I are speaking behind the scenes. I know a lot of people, when I put out the video

from my first interview with Scott and the investigative work he was doing, showing there really is some type of eight-foot-tall being that was in the backyard in Las Vegas of the Kenmore family last year, last May, kind of, you know, made waves with that one. And a lot of people were asking me on Twitter, hey, when is he going to put it out? Because I had stated on Twitter, if you didn't see it, that he's going to be coming out with further evidence showing undeniable evidence was the term I used that there is an alien in that

backyard. It's insane. It's unbelievable. I've seen the picture. and Scott is working on that and just about has it done. So that's the update I wanted to give to you. Scott and I are talking. We were talking over the weekend and he's going to come on here with me.

We're planning on next week as well. So it should be by next week on this show where Scott will be showing this evidence from the Las Vegas alien case. It's going to happen. A lot of you are asking when. when is it going to happen why is he waiting while it's happening he's ready to do it and it looks like next week is when uh we're going to be doing that and showing that um and explaining that showing it on video interview so that'll be up on youtube and then explaining it as well for the audio version on the podcast it's a lot going on like i said just do my best to keep up

with it all and so much to look forward to and so much that's you know being worked on a lot of a lot of burners at the same time. I feel like I need four hands in the kitchen right now, but it's all good. I'm not complaining because I get to bring all of this to you, and I look so much, I look forward so much to you hearing all of this as it comes up. Really, really exciting stuff here in the world of UAP. But until next time with all of that's in the future, it is Stephen Deiner here saying thank you so much for joining once again. Be sure to continue to follow the show on Twitter, on social media, at UAAP Podcast 850, on Twitter and TikTok. and at UA podcast on YouTube.

I'm putting more videos up there as well. So at UA podcast on YouTube. There's no 850 on that one. And also, of course, download and subscribe to the show. You're always going to get the full show. Everything that I put out in its entirety will always be on the podcast version.

There's no short videos. There's no clips. It's all there on the podcast. That's always going to be the meat of this show. It's wherever you get your podcast on Spotify or Apple, wherever else. it's pretty much everywhere so just search uap podcasting any search engine you want and it should show up a bunch of different options and in uappodcast.com all the stuff goes in there as well at uappodcast

dot com so download subscribe rate if you like always enjoy good rating if you're enjoying it and the email s dineruap at gmel dot com that's s d i e n-r uap at gmail dot com if you'd like to send me a direct message like so many of you do i always do my best to get back to every So expect a reply. If you're going to write to me, it may not be right away, but I will reply to you. Absolutely for sure. So all that's going on. I'm out of breath.

So I'll do it for now. Hopefully you enjoy this interview with Paul Heinek and everything else that is to come. So until then, with all that coming up in the future, until next time, it's Stephen Deiner here on UAP, the Unidentified Alien podcast. Can't wait to talk to you again soon and give you all these updates and bring all these episodes to you right here on UAP. Be well. Thanks very much. Talk to you soon. In a place like Los Angeles, people don't stop being who they are. Writers, thinkers, creators, people with stories still unfolding. That spirit lives on at Kingsley Manor, a community shaped by individuality, creativity, and lives well lived. So when the conversation turns to what's

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