Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1048 | Jase Claps Back at a Public Diss on ‘Duck Dynasty’ & Why Organized Religion Is Unappealing

Episode Date: February 27, 2025

Jase gets riled up at the New York Yankees' beard policy snub, insisting there’s only one reason a man should ever trim his chin hairs. Zach does his best to fulfill his oath to track down a treasure hunt for Jase in England and offers a unique perspective on Jesus’ wine-into-water miracle. The guys explore why organized religion is often unappealing to modern society. In this episode: John 2 — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Three, two, one. Did you all miss me? Did everybody miss me? Welcome back to Unashame. Zach is so chomping at the bit because he's been gone for a weekdays that he just can't help himself. He's just, he's bubbling over. I heard you came back a day early.

That's a bad sign. I did come back a day early. So you went to the Queensland, the Motherland, Great Britain. Yeah, I went back to the homeland and where we're still considered tyrants. Who's we? Americans. Oh, really? Oh, yeah, they don't like us. Maybe it was how you carried yourself. No, I carried myself. You are a representative. Well, you know, we, my buddy's from England and every 4th of July, he sends me a text that says, happy tyrants day. That's what he says. Happy tyrants day.

So I guess it's perspective. What a view of the world. We threw the yoke off and they're still grabbing about it. We did. It was interesting. They got the, we went out to Oxford to C.S. Louis's house, which was pretty cool. That would be awesome. And was it just a little cottage, little, humble place?

It's called the kilns. So there's these brick kilns that were there. God. And doesn't live in buildings. built by human hands. I didn't say he was in there. But we were in there. You were.

For sure. It was cool. And then they called that there's a building in Oxford that they called a new building. And it was built like the 1800s. They give you a little perspective. That is the one thing about Europe that when you see what they call new compared to us. Well, that's why I thought you would start with the one job that you were given. You were on a mission.

I was. Did you ever say I'm on a mission from Jason? Are you like George W. Bush? Can we say mission accomplished? I'll tell you. I will tell you this. And Jason actually did reach out to me. Actually, I reached out to him in the middle of the trip.

He did. That's how much you missed me, which, because everybody thinks our relationship. He never reached out to me, Dave, so that tells you something right now. I actually did call you out. You just did not answer. And then your phone said that you weren't accepting phone calls. I don't know what that. means, but everyone says our relationship is strained.

That was a sign of all the people, because you were homesick. Yeah. And you answered his call. He did answer. I did. I thought it was going to be some kind of weird doll tone or like, because I didn't know. You're in a different country. Well, you know, their ring is even different over there.

It's kind of got up. I thought it might be an introduction, like, would you like to take the call? What's weird is there was a lady sitting next to me on the plane and she started to cough and I was like her coughing had an English accent. Oh wow, that's funny. I didn't even know that was possible. I don't know for your jokes, but that was fun. That was pretty funny.

I mean, I'm not joking like I was I'm listening. I really think she's British because her cough had an accent to it. Yeah, that's funny. Did it sound more proper than our cough? Yeah, it's like how like a... Because the Queen's English sounds a little more proper when they say it. But I kind of like the way we drag it out. It just you know, just for... Well, really, if you think about it,

if Genesis 11 is true, a little place called the Tower of Babel. Let me give you a spoiler alert. It is true, but go ahead. And also known as ancient Babylon. Yep. Then we would all be tyrants because God only chose the one nation

there to bring for salvation. Good point. And it wasn't England or the USA. We were way down the line. We were with the Gentile hordes and the Little D gods, you know. So, yeah, anyway, I didn't want to. Elohims, little Elohims. Jace, I did, but I wanted to tell Al, I did tell Jace this because he was like, I mean,

did you do anything that you were supposed to do there? And I do think that Jace thought that I was only going to secure a spot for him to treasure hunt. Once he told you, that's exactly what he thought. It was an add-on to my current trip that we went, because we went to the ARC conference. See, I was serious. I wasn't kidding. I thought it was a mission. I realized that.

When we talked, when we talked, but let me tell you what I did secure. Okay. So I didn't secure, like, I haven't closed the deal yet, but I did establish a relationship with an individual whose uncle has a castle in England. So we are. All right. Let's back up. Let's break this down exegetically. There's your word.

Y'all look it up for the people who listen to me. He started that he made. He secured a relationship. Well, he said, I didn't close the deal. There's no deal. Can we hunt here or can we not? Right. So that's not been.

There's no money going to change hands. Although I'm open to that as long as it's reasonable. Right. So I secured a relationship with a guy who has a cousin. No, his uncle. His uncle. Yeah. His uncle.

Yeah, it got wonky. This sounds like... Was the uncle once removed or twice removed? I think it... I didn't get that deep into the... ...negotiation. But I would like to hunt the yard of a castle. There's got to be stuff there.

So we have one lead. That's all you got. But that's a strong lead. That's a strong lead. Because I've got to... Because he did secure the relationship. A security relationship with a gentleman whose uncle owns a castle in England.

Okay. So I feel like we got... That's something. Yeah. But it wasn't a strikeout. It wasn't a strike out. It wasn't a home run either, but I mean... I think it was a walk or maybe a ball.

But the conference I was at... I think we're still at the plate. I was still at the plate. Yeah, we're still at the place. We're first base. The conference I was at, though, you got to keep in mind, it was not like this, it wasn't like the... It was people from all over the world.

So it was a mixed crowd. I didn't know who was who. Was this the one that Jordan Peterson and Douglas Murray, did they speak? Yes. Yeah, yeah. My friends and Phelham were there. Oh, were they really? Yeah, they were there.

I tried to tell them to find you because I knew you were probably there at the same one, but I couldn't get through to them. Okay, we took care of that. Well, while you were in England, getting the lead, I went to, I flew into Raleigh, North Carolina, which my wife told me. She's like, y'all quit talking about your trips on the podcast because that's the worst part of it. But I have to say this because I had something happening. But she can't even listen to you on the podcast.

So I don't know that, to be fair, that Mrs. Assessment may not. She's pretty smart. I don't know. I took it to heart, but I'm violating that thought right here because, Zach, this is welcome back, Zach. Yeah, welcome back, Zach. day. Look, that'd be a catchy heading. Welcome back.

So in the moment, as I was flying over in North Carolina, but I figured, because I'm, I'm, I got the God view. You flew right over Zach's house. And I waved. Yeah. Because that went in. I knew you weren't there, but I thought last time I drove by, I blew a horn. So this time you got a wave from a plane. So that's not the point in the story

The point of the story was Which says I will say At least that's better than me The last time I was at Zach's house He was trapped outside of North Carolina And I was actually looting his house So for candles and matches I came home with nothing left

Typical So I drove about Or had someone drive me About an hour I think we went north But I'm not 100% sure of that because it was dark. So I went into the rural areas.

I was two hours away from where you're at. Yeah, two hours east of that. Because I said, did the hurricane get you on there? They were like, no, there's two hours from us. So, and look, it was a redneck party, and I can say that because I have redneck tendencies. You got more than two years. But this was, most of the crowd looked like sigh and feel.

Seriously So that was that type of event They had rented a high school Auditorium And that's where This was the men's thing, right? Wasn't it a men's? Well, they said it was a men's thing

But there were some women there Did the women look like San Phel? No. Okay. But there wasn't a lot of women. I think it was predominantly a men's event. Okay. Most of the women were volunteers

and some of them just didn't get the memo. I did start with Genesis 1. In the beginning, God created the heavens of earth, and then I went to Genesis 2. And I was like, you know how you see this on TV in the news? I think Fox does it, but it says, you know, breaking news. But they do it like every hour, and it's the same story. I was like, well, that's no longer.

Every new host opens with the same breaking news. So I've always said, why don't at some point you put broke news? broken news broken news but they don't want to do it I wanted to get to my second illustration which I got

to a one of my emails it's the first time in the history of my speaking that I read shared an email that I got

no no it was from Willie's father-in-law but I had got it that day and I will read Oh, I got to see my name. This is from Johnny?

Yeah, I got this one. Yeah, it's from Johnny. You got it. Let me find it. Where is that email? I don't have it now. Hang on, I got it. Just read the caption. Read the caption. All right, I got the caption.

You ready? Yeah. Is this breaking news? Yeah, it was breaking news then. Breaking news. All right. Yankees drop 49-year, no facial hair policy on one condition. No Duck Dynasty Beards.

Unbelievable. Breaking news. And then I see you come back from England. And the first thing I notice is I believe you're wearing a New York Yankees at. The Yankees at. I am. So I get it that you support that statement. No, I don't support that statement. Just because you weren't on Duck Dynasty.

Is there another hat in the studio? He was on Dunnesty. I got to have another hat to wear. So here's what I will disavow the Yankees. I'm not a Yankees fan. I grabbed a hat. That's why I'm a Dodger fan boy. But you grabbed a hat the same weekend that that story broke.

Wait, did they... But he was in England. This is not a joke. This is for real? Oh, this is... I'm reading the headlines out right here. I do not make jokes on purpose. We've already established that.

What is a Duck Dynasty beer? Okay, so let me break this down. And by the way, the Duck Dynasty is in quotations. So like, which basically they're saying that's a thing, that's a... Everybody knows what this means. Well, Duck Dynasty. has turned into a verb, a noun, an adjective. Oh, let me read a quote in here, Jayes,

before you make a statement. The only information we were offered from Yankees' general manager, Brian Cashman, was that we're not trying to look like Duck Dynasty. Garrett Cole said, referring to the reality show, no diss against Duck Dynasty. You're grinding in the woods all the time. You don't really have any other option. See, look, you know what's funny?

is I never read the article. That's hilarious. I read the caption. I didn't read it either. Well, and you just now read it. This is live. Well, because I felt like we needed to respond to it. So I did it my first event.

I read it. And I said, so let me get this right. Basically what they're saying, if you put this into a criminal category, because they had a clarification for the statement. So they've never allowed facial hair in the history. I knew that. I did know that because the reason I knew that, Jason, is because ballplayers who were known, like for their mustache and their beard, like on some other team, would go to the Yankees.

And then all of a sudden, you would see them, like, with no facial hair, and it made them look weird to me. Because it's like a guy who's seen, it'd be like Johnny Damon, you know. He used to play for the Red Sox. When he went to the Yankees, it was like, who is this guy? It wasn't him. Then he was born again. Exactly. And went to the Red Sox and let himself go.

He did. Duck Dynasty style. So here's what I did from a lot. legal perspective. Oh, Zach Shedda. See? Look, we're going to talk about being born again. We are.

We got to talk about the little place where we talk about the temple. All right, good adjustment. Because I feel like... Yeah, I can't support that anymore. I feel like there's 17 people out there who are saying, I think you should make a statement about this, because they're the ones that brought it up. Now, they did have the clarification.

Al read the context. That was Gary. Garrett Cole, who's their best pitcher who said that. Read that. What did he say again? Here's what he said. He said, the only information we were offered, because they asked him about the new policy from the GM, was that we're not trying to look like Duck Dynasty. That's what the GM says.

Shouldn't they have said at that point, not that there's anything wrong with that? And then he said, and then Garrett Cole, who probably just, he may even know who we are. He says, no diss against Duck Dynasty. You're grinding in the woods all the time. you don't really have any other option. Well, I appreciate that. That is hilarious. I think that was a positive statement.

It was a diss from the management that the player took up for us. He spun it. He spun it for us. He took up for us. He's like, not that there's, you know, anything wrong with it. They're grinding in the woods. Because Gary Cole hadn't always been with the Yankees. He's only been with him a few years.

So you realize this would probably, somewhere somebody will have to make a statement about this so here's what i said can i say what i said so i used it into a legal analogy i said so basically they were saying we're no longer allowing the murder of the beard of our players now they can commit premeditated assault a k a.k.a. grooming to the beard now Maddie's looking at me really weirdly So let me explain that Look, if you're

If you wake up every morning And you're just, remember how Phil used to describe it? You're scraping The hair off your face Yeah, I know how he always made it sound so medieval Yeah, he made And it's really not as bad as I'd Why would you do that?

And so then I said, look, I got some breaking news Which was... This was your lead in for yours. Yeah, yeah. I said, I'm not growing a beard it's doing that on its own which is a great line is it not

it's a great line now see when I look at Zach I see premeditation I see a salt because he's grooming it's trimming it yeah yeah now you just started yours back so you're not in the

grooming stage but I will say I was tempted because this weekend at the event I was at they had a 70s night and so I was wearing this ridiculous 70s costume because when I go to a marriage treat with Lisa, I'm like, I'll wear a matching shirts, whatever. As long as when we lead

this place, that's over. We're back to normal life. But I'll do it there for her. And so I thought about Jay's to really make myself look like in the moment. I thought about cutting and having the big lamb chops that they had back in the 70s. See that? I'm against that. I almost

did it, but I just couldn't. You know why I couldn't? Because of my family, because of Duck, the Out of the Honesty. If you're confused about all this, just your yard is the best example because Phil was consistent. He's like, we don't shave our beards,

we don't trim our beards, we don't manicure our beards, we don't mow our yards, we don't trim, we don't use the, what do they call it? The weed eater's. The edgers. No, you're either all in or you're all out.

And the only time you cut is just due to, you know, if you get hung up in a tree, if you, sometimes you have debris that get in there, if you're hanging, you can trim because as long as nobody notices the trim, you're fine. What always got me was is that dad would go into freak out mode,

like if he found a hair in the pot of beans or something, and he's like, hair in the beans, hair and the beans, looking around like everybody else. I was like, do you want to take three guesses on where that hair came from? And the first two don't count? They came right out of that giant Spanish ms. moss that's hanging off of your face. Which is great camouflage because the beard, God's designed,

gave men this beard that looks like moss and grass. It's great for fulfilling Genesis 9. It does hide your face, I agree 100%. Well, Genesis 9 is the birthplace of honey. Unless it gets too white. No, well, then it looks like real moss, though. It's still passing. Yeah, if it's long and flowing, I guess it would.

I mean, not a Kenny Rogers. Like a Kenny Rogers, why it would be a little shocking. So to wrap that up, and then I shared Jesus, and there was a couple things that happened that I'll conclude this trip in honor of messy. One is the VIP line, which was after the speech, which is, you know, people pay to whatever they're, you know, the money that they had spent or whatever so they used that which was very long long line one guy

came up there and most of it was how's your dad uh you know heard y'all have a new show coming out or something about the podcast there was a few jesus questions uh but one guy stepped up there And he said, well, I've got to tell you something. He said, I really love the podcast. And he's like, I know it's dangerous to say this out loud, but I'm going to tell you, Zach is the best. Wow. I have never heard that in the history of VIP lines.

He said, there's just, he just has a way with words. So I thought, Zach, an honor. Did you feel like the Holy Spirit was speaking to you in that moment? moment was that did you receive that from I said Lord or how did you receive that I said so let me get this right here was my immediate response I said

you've been waiting in this line one hour to tell me that whoever that guy is he's just at what state of character so Zach just look sometimes when the pressure's getting to you or you feel like you don't know you just think

there's a guy out there somewhere he's like, I get you, man. He gets me. You officially have a buddy, a partner. I got a buddy out there. So I got to tell you a story from my trip that is really amazing. So there was a- Even though Missy said we shouldn't talk about the trips.

Now all three of us have talked about our trip. We're sorry, Missy, but these are just too good. There was a young couple. We were in a marriage thing, and there was a couple, and they were telling their story during our weekend, which a couple of couples usually do every year. And what I didn't realize, I had the list of names we pray over everybody that's going to be there.

I didn't realize I had met this couple last year. And last year at the same retreat, these guys are from Arkansas. And the wife came in and said, my husband wants to talk to you. And I said, well, sure. And so I'm looking around because we're at a marriage street. Usually everybody's together as a couple.

He wasn't there. It was just her. and she said, you know, he's really, we just watched the movie. So, Zach, I thought you'd appreciate this. We just watched the blind. And it has impacted him so deeply that that's the reason we're here. Like, we're ready to make a life change. He's ready and we're ready.

And I'm looking around, I was like, well, is he here? He wasn't in the room. She said, yeah, he's outside. He's embarrassed to come talk to him. I said, no, no, no, that's why we're here. So he came in, he told me a story. He was, you know, it was hard for him to tell it, but he told it. Did he have a beard?

He did have a beard, a big old Arkansas boy. So he would not have been able to play for the Yankees. No, he couldn't play with the Yankees. And so we had a great conversation. They had an amazing retreat. I hugged their neck at the end. So that was the end of it. Except this year, through forces I didn't know,

because I don't do the plan of this anymore, I just show up and help. They were there, and they were actually up speaking and telling what's happened this last year. And it was so touching and moving, and he talked about the movement. movies at and how that he had had a problem with alcohol, a lot like dad. It's just not been there for his family, a lot like dad. And like, it had just moved him to a point. He said, when he watched

it, when he left the theater, he said, I couldn't even speak. I was so overcome by realizing it was like looking at a mirror at my own life. And so he got home and that started this process. And now a year later, he and his wife were doing great and, you know, just what he's ready to his own podcast. And I mean, he was just so fired up for Jesus this year. And we had a great conversation. But I just,

I wanted to mention on the podcast because we talk a lot about, obviously we miss dad being here as a regular part of our discussion. But he's never far, he and mom, especially, from what we're talking about.

Because they trained us, they taught us. Their impact still goes on. And that's what I told him. I was like, well, look, because he was like, I miss Mr.

Phil and the fast, we all do. And I said, but the, influence and the impact. And he said, you said it. He said, what did you call us some kind of letter? I said, you're a living letter of dad's life. And I said, and now the thing is, you've got to talk to people about Jesus. And he said, well, that's what I want to do. And he told me for the first time he woke up this weekend at the retreat and said, I am ready to tell people, Jesus. So I loved it.

It was a great. It lifted me all the way back here from Arkansas. And God wrote the letter, obviously. Exactly. So, well, we were in John, too. We did the water and the wine. I didn't know if you wanted to have any comments on it. I will note this. The guy who gave me the ride to the event, who put the event on, him and his wife.

His wife owns a little bookshop. It's called The Good Book, or The Good Books. I think it was The Good Book, singular. And so when we passed it, she's like, there's my little shop. Well, it was just in the middle of nowhere, a rural area, and it's a little tiny building. And the building had a divider. And there's two businesses, the good book. Well, you know what the name of the other building was?

The Wine Thief. And I thought, wow, what about your neighbors there? And she was like, well, it's a long story. But yep, they're the wine thief, which I didn't know what that term meant. I looked it up, which it's actually a little tool that when you dip into a barrel of wine to taste it, they call that tool the wine thief. So you don't have to break the seal or whatever on the whole thing. So I thought that was, I was like, okay, there was a story behind it. But when I saw it, I was like, what does that mean?

I was thinking John 2, right? Well, I was, we had just studied John 2. I was thinking First Corinthians when it said, some of you come to take the Lord's Supper and you're getting drunk. Oh, yeah. They were wine thieves, you know. They're getting drunk during the Lord's Supper. And then you're thinking, how would you open a shop?

Well, then I just thought, well, that's the spiritual bite. Well, because they said, well, we're going to, we want to sell wine. Yeah. And so we're going to open this up right next to the good book. So let's just call it the wine thief. I mean, that's what my thought was, but I was wrong. But still, I actually said, because she was kind of chuckling about it, I was like, well, Jesus did turn the water into wine.

That's funny because that reminds me. I spoke in Oklahoma one time, Oklahoma City at a little strip mall, and these people had converted the middle two or three little shops into a place for their church to meet. And so as I'm driving up and get out to go inside the little place, on one end is a liquor store on the anchor of one corner of the strip mall, and the other is a CBD pot dispensary on the other end of it. So when I got up, I said, well, you guys have chosen an interesting place to meet here.

I've noticed there's a liquor store on one end and a pot dispensary on the other. I said, do you know what I call that? And they're all looking like, what's he going to say? And I said, prime real estate. Yeah. Because everybody coming there looks like they need it. So Zat, we did the water to wine. On a couple of podcasts when you were gone with Sai and Lisa.

But as Jay said, did you have any commentary to add to that before we get to the clearing of the temple? That's kind of where we're left off. The water to wine. Yeah. Well, I always grew up here that that wine was non-alcoholic wine. I'll talk about that. A little bit. A little.

Because we referenced that, Zach, unfortunately, in our upbringing, every time this text was used, that was what the lesson tended to. to go to where they miss the whole point of the power. Oh, the whole point is missed once you start looking at everything legalistically or ritualistically. It was two parts, this and three parts that. Remember all that, Zach? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, they had a whole, I don't know how they got there, but they got there somehow. You know what's funny, though, is I told you, I went to Rednet USA, but on the way back, the person I was sitting beside, I happened to be in first class, which is nice. and was a CEO of some big medical company, you know, a woman. And we just kind of started the conversation. So I looked for the opportune time to drop in what I'm in on. Yeah. Because I thought, you know, here's a woman's got a lot of power and influence.

So, and it was perfect because a guy had come by, and he was like, I want to see if I can get you to come do an event for us, you know. He just was in the hallway of the airplane. Well, she's looking at me like, I mean, I knew what she was thinking. What is a guy looking like this, who this guy was spiffy looking and civilized, asking you. He looked normal. And she's thinking, the reason I'm writing in first class is to get away from people that look like you. I mean, I know she didn't say that, but I get it.

So she's now thinking people know this guy. Yeah. What's the story? So, because I, she didn't say anything. Yeah. So I took my Bible. But you knew what she was thinking. I knew what she was thinking. So I took my Bible out of my bag.

So I thought I'd do a little studying research. And I said, sorry about that. You know, these, it's, these people recognize me. And she's like, well, how do they recognize you? I said, well, that's a, that's a long story. And I said, we were, you know, I went through. the TV show, the Duck Dynasty. I should have brought up the Yankees just declared that their players couldn't look like us.

Exactly. And I said, we have a podcast, and she said, well, what's the podcast about? Well, that was the money question there. Oh, boy, that's it. Because it's like, you did the show years ago, and now, what, y'all still talking about it? And I basically framed it by saying, well, we study the Bible, at the heart of it, it's a Bible study. I said, you know, we tell stories. I said, but we're real and authentic, talk about our lives, and what's going on.

I said, but it's done without an agenda or kind of a, you know, religion-based program. I was like, we're believers. We believe God is real. And so I kind of went through the gospel. Yeah. And the Bible. And she said, well, that's my whole problem is the ritualistic aspect. and she kind of told her story.

And I thought, isn't that something that, because I think that's why you're actually listening to this, because we don't, you know, we're just trying to look, hey, God wrote a book, wow, he came to earth. Jesus, wow, let's figure this out. Yeah.

And figure out the context of when this was written and how this kind of applies to us in modern day. And so I think that was a good hook to it. And I think passages and signs like this are much more appealing to those people who have had bad religious experiences. Because you have these people arguing who look at everything like a ritual or a legal. In fact, one of the people in line that we had a conversation about was she was telling me, it was a woman, she said, you know, I got a question. I was baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit. She's like, there's a preacher, two churches down,

that said, I needed to be baptized again. And I was like, well, how did this conversation come about? And she said, he just brought it up. I know you go to this church over there. Oh, boy. So tell me about your baptism. I was like, that's how the conversation started. Yeah.

And he said, well, if you're not baptized in Jesus' name, you're out. You need to do that again. And so she was like, what do you think about that? And I was like, I'm not sure we're going to have enough time to discuss that right now. But I just kind of made the same statement about there. There's a lot of people that are looking at the Bible like a formula on words and what you say. And I think I made a comment. I was like, well, Jesus's name actually in the Greek was not Jesus.

So technically, even if you were baptized in the name of Jesus, they got the English translation of that. I mean, if we go down the legalistic road, would that have counted? What they're getting at there is they're saying that Jesus, there are basically people who teach that are teaching that God is not triune. He's not a Trinity. He is one person that manifests himself in Father's Son and Holy Spirit. He has different forms, but it's only one person. It's actually heretical. So what they're actually proposing is not, it's just not biblical

because God's clearly three distinct persons in one being. So that's really, what that is, it's an anti-Trinitarian view of the Godhead. And I think it has serious implications. Well, it obviously did in this situation because what did that have to do with any? I mean, all that did was create confusion in the mind of this person. Well, I'm all about the name of Jesus. Yeah, me too. And the book of Acts is filled with it, you know.

So I was like, well, maybe they should say, just as a sign of good grace to your neighbor church, just say, I baptize you in the name of the Father, of the Son, the Holy Spirit, in the name of Jesus. When she laughed, and I was like, because my point is, this is about a person. And you've made something about a ritualistic step procedure. and how you say things.

And now, granted, Zach knew the history behind it. I did not. But I think the point is the same. I mean, you fall in love with the Lord, and he knows your heart, and you want to surrender to him, and now somebody's going to tap you on the shoulder and say, to make sure you get all the wording right

before this event happens. When I told you all the story before, the first time I ever baptized somebody, was so excited. right out of the world, been a prodigal son, come back, finally, you know, had the wherewithal to tell somebody what Jesus had done in my life, baptized him down there on the river next to Dad's house. And as I'm coming out, you know, I'm so excited in the moment, you know,

because this is good stuff. And this dear brother, who I love to Dad, who's crossed over now, he came up put his arm and he said, you did so good. And I was like, thank you. I mean, he's an older brother. And he said, now, but you didn't say for the remission of sins. That's what I'm talking. And I was like, and I was crushed in that moment because I thought, oh, no, I've messed up.

You did something wrong. Yeah, and I was like, but I realized in that moment, through all my years now of helping people that it's not about the baptizer, it's not about the words, it's not about any of that. God is doing the saving. Somehow another, when you take it into that form, which I've said this before, which I don't know why we're talking about baptism. I guess we'll get it. Well, but, you know, the form, it's like. What causes all the arguments about baptism? It comes from these questions that people come up with that do not make sense,

which is what I'm relating to the water and the wine. Here's a question that doesn't make sense about the water and the wine. Well, was that alcohol, was it fermented? That's not the picture. That has nothing to do with what this is talking about. Because the leap that people may was, where you're telling me that my whoever, my uncle, who struggle with alcohol his whole life,

I mean, Jesus would turn water in actual alcohol. I mean, that's where we make the leap is someone's weakness in an area, and you're like, well, he couldn't have never done that. It had to not be alcoholic. It had to be something else. That's like the baptism thing, because somebody came up with a question,

well, do we have to do this? Well, it's a terrible question. Right. You hear the story of Jesus, you read all the verses, even were going to get to John 3. He's talking about being born of water in the spirit. But most of the ones in the book of Acts,

and you see all these things, and for somebody to have, that's their question. Somehow, you've gotten off of God being real, present, and able to work and to save. It's like now, oh, I've got to figure this out, like the pieces of a puzzle, ask 10 hypothetical questions And from 10 different groups

Because then you get all the different teaching You're so far removed And I think to go back to the lady That was sitting beside me, the CEO You know, they just look up and say enough I mean I'm Because she made a comment like that She's like this organized religion

Is very distasteful to me You know And I can't blame her She's just being honest Yeah I mean that is the pulse that you get it. And so when you try to bring people together in the name of Jesus, and in the person of Jesus, it becomes very difficult.

Yeah, it's tough. You know. Well, we, you know, we left organized religion when I was in the sixth grade. I remember a fifth grade, actually. And my dad, you guys remember this, he was like, I'll never step foot in a church building again. So most of my, like, teenage years was. in revolt against the institutional church. I since come back, I still think the institutional church matters, and I think that it can be redeemed.

For community and a lot of different reasons. Yeah, I agree. And you have to learn how to live with people also, you know, loving one another when Jesus said all men will know you by your love for one another. Well, that takes patience, forgiveness, all these qualities that he offers to us is then passed on me, just look at your marriage, which I think this has some representation. I tend to think these signs are more of a fulfillment based on what had been written. Now we have, there's a, there's a new transforming power by God occurring with the arrival of Jesus.

And so I think him taking these ceremonial jars of water, transforming them to wine, is looking back to their system, which I think it continues in the next, paragraph about the temple but then look but then it goes forward yeah i mean think ephesians 5 and then when it says be filled don't get drunk on much wine actually ephesians 5 says that don't get drunk on much wine but what be filled with the spirit singing and make music in your heart so there's your verse for you legalists but then it goes on to talk talking about marriage yeah and then it gives all these roles and then it says the mystery though is that i'm talking about you and Christ. Well, and I want to say this, we talked about this in one of the last

podcast. This wasn't accidental. It almost appears that way because Jesus is like, what are you asking me for? My time is not yet come. But John included it specifically. He only mentioned seven for a reason, because later in our text at the clearing of the temple, he says Jesus did many other miraculous signs and people put their faith in him. But he doesn't mention any of those specifically. So there was something unique about this situation. And we mentioned this before. It's even the underlying thing that most people don't think about. This was a shame situation. They were out of wine at a public event, a wedding, which in their culture would have been a huge faux pa. I mean, this would have been a no can do. You don't run out of wine at the week-long feast. And yet here they were. And then

Jesus takes that away by not only making wine, but making really premium wine. And they gets mentioned. And so I've always thought maybe that's one of the reasons John puts it in here is Jesus is concerned about taking away everything including our shame in any relationship. So there's a reason John included it specifically because he's going to go on to these next ones. But he only mentions seven specifically. It gives the background of each one of them. I would add probably one more thing too. If you think about like new Exodus language, which I love to see that in the New Testament as being Jesus' mission as almost like an arrival of a new Exodus in all the Gospels. But if he's like a new Moses, which I think we would argue that he is, some scholars would say that, well, what was Moses' first miracle?

It turning the water into blood. This is kind of like a mirror of turning the water into wine. And then there's also the imagery of that Jesus is bringing plenty. He's bringing excess. He's kind of bringing the party. And I think what's happened in the way I grew up, at least, and fundamentalist Christianity, was that it was, everything was like a negation of something. Don't do, don't do.

Everything was about stuff you can't do. But Jesus came for the life of the world, as we're going to see when we get to John 6th. He gave his flesh for the life of the world. So I think this wedding, picture of a wedding, I mean, that comes up quite a bit in scripture too, that we are the bride of Christ. And if you think about the kingdom of God, it's almost like we're in this preparation for this incredible party and this incredible feast and this incredible wedding when there's that final consummation of Christ's second coming. I think all that imagery is in this moment. And so,

you know, there's a whole lot in the Old Testament about wine bringing joy. Now, yes, can wine be abused and can you get drunk on wine and just get sloshed and get out of your mind, which leads to debauchery, as what Paul says in Ephesians 4? But there is a healthy and biblical of the enjoyment of wine as seen in this text here. I believe that it can be enjoyed. I do believe that it is a gift from God, and I do believe in this passage, you're seeing something really beautiful

about the God that we serve in the coming of this kingdom. Yeah. And there was even, Zach, in the Old Testament, you're right, they would have these offerings from everything that they produced, and wine was one of them, grapes and grains and all these things,

and they would pour out the first percentage of their wine. And that was probably part of the distillery process as well. When they did it, they would do it to the Lord. It was like, we're giving you the first of our first fruits. And so that concept is definitely in Jesus's mind. And we sort of twisted that through time because of people's abuse of certain things. And Paul certainly deals with that in some of the letters. But it should never take away from the idea that God made all this.

This is all his. Yeah, the best way to handle something like this, in my opinion, is always look for what is the redemptive version of whatever the thing is. And so, like, when, yes, you see alcohol is obviously used by a lot of people to get drunk and live in debauchous ways. Is there a redemptive, is there anything redemptive about alcohol? I think there is. I think that there is certainly a fine wine. I'll tell you this. I mean, think about something that takes a craft to create.

Like, no one's going to sit there and just get sloshed on something that took years and years and years to develop and to curate. I think there is a story here. Some of my friends would. Yeah, some of your people might have got a lot of money. But like when he says here that everyone serves the good wine first, this is in verse 10, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now. Well, what's the point he's saying there is that at these wedding feast,

typically in the cultural moment of this time, what you would do is you would serve the good wine first, and then when everybody got a little tipsy, then you start serving the trash wine when people don't notice the difference. But what they're noticing about Jesus here is that he actually is saving the best for last. And there's a picture there, one of how Jesus saw alcohol, but more importantly,

is in the intention in the heart of God is not, I think the first fruits are just that. their first fruits, what we're experiencing now in the kingdom, it's a foretaste of glory divine, but Christ always brings the best last. And it goes to this excessive love that God has for us. It goes to when God doesn't just answer a prayer a little bit, he doesn't just fulfill a promise. Like, think about the promise that he made to Abraham. Did he just barely fulfill that? Or did, or was that promise far beyond what Abraham could have ever imagined? I'm sitting here 2,000 years after Christ came,

and I don't know how many years after God gave that promise to Abraham, that I'm going to make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky. I can almost promise you that Abraham would have never in a million years imagine that thousands of years later, he would have spiritual grandchildren on a podcast in a place called the United States of America talking about this promise. He would have never imagined that. But that's what God does.

He always over delivers. Yeah, that's a great point. I think also this was the second question that Jesus asked from John's perspective when it said, you know, the first one was, remember, we made a big deal, what do you want? Yeah. Which is a good question if you just take it by yourself and ask yourself. Well, he asked his mom this time, we didn't bring this up before, but he said, why do you involve me?

Yeah. If you just ask that question about that. anything in life? What is, why are you involving Jesus? It kind of puts, there's, there's a perspective change there. Yeah. Because really, you know, his mom knew he's different. This, she, she had to have known that. And when she, her response was do whatever he tells you. And I think, which was a directional answer. Yeah. I think it's kind of a, in my mind, it gave, and this is, stuff in my personal time when I read stuff like this. Because I realize this was written to a group of people, but it's for me.

Yeah. And it's kind of like when I'm just looking at what I want to do and then have, you know, check with my relationship with Jesus to make sure this is, you know, okay. Instead of my primary is to follow Jesus and to be him, you know, on this earth through Spirit. And that involves everything I do. It makes God more present is what I'm getting at by that question. Because I, you know, I said that somebody would do a lesson just on the questions of Jesus. Yeah. I mean, if you want to relate it to your own life, those are really deep, deeper questions than they seem. Yeah, that's good. Well, we're about out of time. But I did want to get your take on

as that, which is really good because it kind of catches us back up. Well, it's an ungo. It's a good segue, too. The last verse it says, He thus revealed his glory, which when you think back to the Old Testament, when God's glory was revealed, especially through the tabernacle and the temple and this connection with Jesus becoming flesh

and making his dwelling, tabernacling among us. And then in John's gospel, which is unique to the other three, he has this clearing out of the temple at the beginning. He also has him kind of going in and out of Jerusalem, which makes a little more sense to me. I think it's too different.

I think the clearing of the temple has happened more than once. I think that what's happening in John 2 is not the same event that happens in Mark 13. And we talked about that. Well, it may be, or you may be looking at it too much systematically. You know what I mean? It could be. I mean, the point is the same. Yeah.

Because when we get to the meat of this, Jesus, to, I think, going back to his conversation with Nathaniel, this ladder, Jacob's ladder, this angels descending from heaven and heaven and earth being connected. Well, that's temple language. Yeah. And then it kind of makes you think of creation itself in the seven-day period. because they, you know, when you look at how the temple was built, and it looked like a garden and all these fancy things, and it's kind of the seven stages of the temple, it all seems to be connected with this one fact

that God wants to dwell with people and reveal his glory. And that is a theme of the entire Bible. Yeah, which is huge. All right, so we're out of time. We'll pick it up here. We want to wait for you to get back, Zach, talk about this temple, because we know you've got a lot to say about that. So we'll do that next time on.

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