Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1049 | Jase Dives In to the Mysteries of Lesser Gods, Fallen Angels & Rebellion

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

Jase, Zach, and Al explore the texts that shed some light on the mysteries of other, lesser gods, celestial rebellion, and fallen angels on earth who created human hybrids. Al poses a theory as to why the Israelites had to wander the desert for 40 years after escaping Egypt. Jesus turned Judaism on its head when he challenged the traditional meaning of “temple,” and Zach gets to the heart of what sin truly is at its core. In this episode: John 2, verse 12; 2 Corinthians 3, verse 18; Revelation 1, verse 5; Ezekiel 43, verse 6; Acts 15, verses 16-17; Matthew 24, verses 30-36; Mark 13, verses 3-4, 29-30 —  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashame. We're so excited to have Zach back from Jolly Old England. Zach, now one thing I had to ask for clarification because you said you weren't going to be, you were there totally separate because Willie's family's been over there. Corey's been there. Sadie spoke at something and they had a big thing going on, which you mentioned. You said that had nothing do with you.

And then I saw pictures of your lovely wife, Jill, the much better half of your union, with Corey and the group. So there was

submerging somewhere in there between the two worlds. There was cross-pollination. We were at the same event, one of the events, but we were just there

for that one thing. And they were there for, I think, another thing that coincided. So they doubled up. Yeah. But I'm back now.

And back in North Carolina, we got the fort all set up. We're ready to roll. That's good. Good to be back. Good to be back, Jace. Thank you for waving at me as you're driving over to. I was looking up cross-pollination. Cross-tallination.

Actually, the transfer of pollen from one plant to another. That's a metaphor. I use it as a metaphor. Well, I know, but I was thinking, isn't that what the cross-ed Jesus does. It cross-pollinates. Well, it cross-pollinates over the global... The cross-pollination.

Well, you always plan on Jace to look at the different... I like that. I've never thought about that before the cross-pollination, but that's actually... Well, I've always thought about Jesus, you know, because we're so, you know, used to, I think, feel, label me a germaphobe. And this is pre-COVID. because I just noticed every time I shook two or three hundred hands, the next day I got sick. So I thought it had nothing to do with me being labeled a germaphobe.

I thought, why don't we just fist bump? But then people don't like that. And even two or three times at my last event, they put out the fifth bump. I put out the hand, and then they went to the hand, and I went to the fifth. And it was like, I had my... And then you're collapsing your hand over their fist.

And then it got so awkward that whatever encounter we thought we were going to have did not end well. But my point was, Jesus was like the, what is the opposite? Like the anti-contagion in that he would not only not, like he would touch a leper. Not only would he not get leprosy, but he was contagious in a positive way. He was the cross-pollination. A spiritual contagion. You just touched the hymn of the... this garment and you find healing.

That's what I mean. So it's like that's why if you have germaphobe tendencies, Jesus is truly your answer because it's like the anti-gene and pollination of, oh, don't cough on me. And you're like, oh, Jesus, please cough on me because then I'll no longer call for me. I think it's kind of cool. Well, and let's face it, the whole going through COVID thing as a culture and as a nation, we saw the extreme versions of people so fearful about somehow getting something that it turns out most people are going to get anyway,

because that's the nature of a virus like that, that we saw that and thought, ooh, I don't want to be that person with the triple mask and the face shield. Well, right. Yeah, now they, even still people have it today. But, you know, that's why I love 2nd Corinthians three. 18, if you want to know whether Jesus was pro-mask, he's like, we all with unveiled faces reflect the Lord's glory, which is where we left off. Look at that segue. Look at the segue.

Jay's gets the Segway Award today. So he goes water to wine and it says this was the first of his miraculous signs, which I believe that was addressing the legalistic. of the planet. Right. Because of all things, he turned water into wine. The fact that that's a controversy is really a sad depiction of a lot of organized religions.

It's supposed to be a beautiful thing. It's like God's party. Hey, for all you party people, God's got a party. That's awesome. Yeah. And it's actually involving wine. But what that represents, is I brought up, Zach, we didn't talk about this last podcast,

but that illustration that he used when he said, you don't pour new wine into old wine skins because it burst. I feel like that's the big transition. I was thinking of the same thing. I didn't bring it up either. I had the same exact thought. Yeah, well, there it is. So when he gets to verse 12 of John 2, which is where we're at,

after this he went down to Compernum with his mother and brother and his disciples. there he stayed a few days and I think this is significant when it says it was almost time for the Jewish Passover which is if I'm not mistaken the same event

where he died on the cross and so when you start filling on and we know there were at least three trips there because he did three years of ministry and he's going every year so which I said last time and I'll say again you know when you get to the book of revelation I'm going down a rabbit hole here

where some people call a bunny trail. Is that what somebody said on you? I heard somebody speaking and he said, I'm going to go down a bunny trail. And I thought, well, now I know the different in a redneck Christian and a yuppie Christian. The redneck goes down a rabbit hole

and the yuppie goes down a bunny trail. The bunny trails sounds way too cutesy. You're right. I can't call it that. Come on. I was like, where are you from? I missed his whole point. of the bunny trail.

If you're going on a bunny trail, you're frolicking, and that's not what we're not fronlecking. I mean, is that a chocolate buddy or an actual fluffy bunny? Yeah, we're going down to tour. I'm the type of person that when I see a hole in the ground. You're curious about what made it. I'm not just curious.

I'm going in. I'm going to see what's down at the bottom. And I've told this before on the podcast, but one of the scariest moments of my life, is when I submerged myself under a beaver hut and came up, because I saw it on that movie, Jeremiah Johnson, when he hid and they were after. The Indians were after him, yeah.

And so he did that. Yeah. You go up, if you ever want to try this, you need to have a flashlight in your hand. Because it's dark. Because when I came up... Yeah, they don't have lights in there. When I came up, here's what I heard. Which is not good in the dark.

No. No. And, I mean, I could have drowned in between, you know, and now it's just... So I got out of there. What a way to go. Well, I mean, I don't think the beaver would kill you. But I could... do have sharp teeth they can cut trees i mean i don't want that anywhere near my i mean i've been bitten

by a beaver yeah and uh but you know a few days i got over it but i you know i used to catch them and so be careful what you're what you're going after yeah what you get something that doesn't want to be caught in the wilderness i was we were deep seed uh on a trip one time and these guys would dive down and spear fish which was amazing to watch them we would be snorkeling on the and so I could see them down there spearing these tuna. And they would just go down there on the bottom. We're in the Gulf. And they're down there on the bottom.

And they would just go in a hole and disappear. Like, you know, and they're probably, I don't know, 100 foot down where we were just watching them. And I thought, what kind of fool on the bottom of the ocean goes down and just disappears in a hole. And they'd come out and they'd have a lobster or something. I was like, look at these guys. Well, what I was going to say, we never.

got to the actual rabbit. Sorry, that was another rabbit. But I was just, I look at the Bible from the filter of Jesus, you know, because of passages like Hebrews 1, where he starts off saying in the past, God spoke in various ways. And, you know, he brings up the prophets. But he's like, in these last times, he's spoken to us to his son. Yeah. And then that chapter 2, which is one of my favorite chapters in the whole Bible, Hebrews 2,

because it's all about why God became a human. Yeah. I mean, he starts calling us family. he starts tying in the spiritual forces in the heavenly realms with, you know, Jesus becoming an actual man not only to defeat the spiritual forces of evil, but to rescue humans. And, you know, he winds up in that famous passage

where he destroys the work of the evil one, which is the, you know, spiritual forces in the heavenly realms that happen to come to earth, via the devil. Right. But by his death, which is, it's not like we're jumping the gun.

John is like given a vision of what's going to happen. Like as he's writing, everything is leading to, it gives you a picture of something, even the conversations to what's fixing to happen, but he's also using

the fulfillment of what happened in the past to come to this point. Right. And so that, based on me saying that and getting that outright, so when I read Revelation 1-5, and of course, now we're jumping to the very end, the last book, but it starts talking about Jesus, and it says, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

But watch how he depicts him here. He says, to him who loves us and has freed us. because when I hear the word Passover, I think freedom, when you go back to that story and the new Exodus and God liberating this chosen nation from slavery, you know, I think freedom.

So we tend to think when we start reading in John 1 well in the beginning. He's the one that went back and said, okay, in the beginning was the word and words were with God. You go back to the beginning and it's like, well, God, you know, made the heavens and the earth

and then he spoke the Holy Spirit was hovering over the water so you're kind of seeing God in his form speaking the spirit hovering and creation happening

then so all of a sudden we've gone one chapter and he starts talking about well it's Passover time and you start thinking oh how is this going to relate back there when God use blood and the signs that he did to liberate his people.

And you remember the partner of the Red Sea and the whole story, leading them to the promised land. So I said all that to say he's freed us from our sins. So this is, Jesus not only fulfilled and gave freedom, like you go back to the Old Testament, you know, freeing a people from some kind of, earthly kingdom

and dominion. But now he's like free in humanity from sin itself and the work of the devil itself from death itself. You remember in Hebrews too it says he held people slavery by their fear of death in slavery by their fear of death.

Right. Don't you think that's interesting? Very interesting. So then he says and who has made us to be a kingdom and priests, well what did priests do? They worked in the temple. right right as go-betweens between god and man to serve his god and father to him be glory and power forever and ever amen then he has the daniel quote and then i wanted to get to verse eight so then

jesus says through john's vision i am the alpha and the omega so that would be like beginning a to a i'm the a and Z. Right. But here's a point I want to make. Because then he clarifies that, says the Lord God, who is, who was, and who is to come, the Almighty. Which I think that's why John wrote this the way it is,

because you're reading and you're looking back and seeing how he's fulfilling the whole plan of God from the beginning. But you're also looking forward to what he's fixing to do. Right. And I think the part missed is the letters in between in modern day America. Yeah. Because he is, which is why he has all the seven I.M. statements. And so a lot of people, my whole point of this rabbit hole is, yes, we're going to look back to what the temple did in the Old Testament.

And we're going to look forward to what Jesus redefined as the temple, as him being the temple, given human beings. his spirit, which we're going to get into in John 3, he introduces this idea of the spirit, and becoming the dwelling place of God. And so if you factor in that Jesus, who was, who is to come, and who is, so right now we're in the who is, Jesus, who is. It's the in-between the alphabet of earth. Right. And let me go back to your point, because I love it. that when the people of enslaved in Egypt, who were the people of God but just didn't know it yet, when they came out, it's very interesting,

because Lisa and I just talked about this yesterday at our marriage thing when we did our talk together. There was a cloud that guided them. By day it was a cloud. At night, that cloud would be fire so they could see. So they literally had a pathway to where their freedom was now taking them. And it was taken them ultimately to the tabernacle and later the temple and the

promised land, everything that he had told Abraham 400 years earlier. They were going into this is, this free, now you're in the presence of God lifestyle. What's interesting is, Jay, an entire generation of people, 40 years, they could not, they couldn't escape. They kept looking back. In spite of the cloud, in spite of the fire, in spite of the promises, they kept saying, we're hungry. Yeah.

I mean, we want to go back. And so he said, okay, you're going to wander around for 40 years until this entire generation figures out that the way forward is in my presence. And so I think it's interesting. That was a picture of an Old Testament story, but that's exactly what it is today. We're not just escaping sinful desire and sins effects on us. we are into the presence of God, which is a completely different existence. And you can't keep looking back to live in the here and now.

I mean, that's what they did. He says, don't do that. I mean, now you're with me. Holy Spirit lives in you now. Right. Well, that picture I was thinking of when you talking about that cloud, God showed up in the Old Testament quite often as a cloud or in the form of smoke. Yep.

Particularly when you're talking about God's presence, you know, smoke would fill the tabernacle, the temple. If you think about the time when he had the interaction with Abram, or was Abraham, Abraham? Yeah. In Genesis 17, maybe. I was thinking 15. 15, yeah, yeah.

But it was the one where they cut the animals in half and they have the covenant. He puts Abram asleep, and then the smoke goes through the divided animals, meaning that God's presence moved through the divided. animals, which I think is the real story of Jesus, is that what happening in the Old Testament, it was always about God's presence. That never changes, right? The problem with the Old Testament is that it was not on the side of God, it was on the side of humans, us. That we were the problem, always were.

I mean, if you go back and read Genesis chapter 3 and you see, like, who withdrew from who first. It was the Adam and Eve sin, they ate the fruit, and then they were the ones. that covered up initially. They made fig lead coverings for themselves. They ran and they hit from the Lord, and then they heard the Lord God walking in the garden, and then God approached them. And that goes in line with that Romans 5 passage,

that while we were enemies Christ died for us, a lot of this language about the enemy of God, I think we lose it sometimes in Western Christianity because we only see it as that God's mad at us, but we don't see the part that, no, we're enemies in our mind, too. That's a big part of this. You know, Colossians, Paul says,

and Colossians, we were enemies and alienated in our minds. So I think the trajectory of the Old Testament, if you read it and you never heard about Jesus, never heard about the God of the Old Testament, I'm just going to give you this book, Genesis, these books, Genesis, Demaliki, read it and tell me what you think. I think here's what you would come back and say. I think you would say, this is not going to work. Not because of the God of the covenant, but because the ones he made the covenant with, these people, us, humans, they are.

adulterous and they continue to rebel, even like as you mentioned in the exits, even with the cloud guiding, even with the miracles, even with the manna falling from heaven, they're still trying to gather it all up. They're making golden cats or doing all the things. I mean, like, what are you doing? It's what we do, by the way. So the problem is always in the problem of humanity.

And what's happening in the coming of Christ, the Messiah, is that God is going to accomplish his ultimate mission is that he will dwell with his people. despite human failure. Despite human failure, he is going to join people, and it will be accomplished in Jesus. So I think that is like a good backdrop as he's entering into this world, which we would know is Second Temple Judaism.

He's entering into this world, and he's going into the very epicenter in John chapter 2 of their entire structure, their entire system, their entire way of life, everything that they were about is in this temple, and that is exactly where Jesus is going. So I want to give you two more pictures since we're there, because we just studied this.

And in 1st Kings 8, whenever Solomon builds that first temple, it says that God came in a dark cloud to your point. And it said, now I will dwell in your temple. And that was that picture again, we would know later. But I love the idea it was a dark cloud. Because most of the time people make a decision where what is it going on? You're in the darkest part of your life. The other one was a picture you don't think about very much,

and that's in First Kings 18, when Elijah is on Mount Carmel, and he's just had this great victory, and now he knows that God's going to bring rain, because it hadn't rained in years. And so he gets down on his hands and knees, and he won't even look, and he tells his servant, keep looking out over the Sea of Galilee. And so seven times the servant looks out,

and on the seventh time it said a cloud, the size of a man's hand came out of the Sea of Galilee and then began to gather and of course brings rain. And it rained so hard that, I mean, you know, Elijah just took off running and ran all the way back to Israel. And so I just think that idea again about the cloud, like you said, is the idea of the provision of God, the power of God, the interaction of God.

And even when Jesus left here in Acts chapter 1, remember what it said? A cloud hid him from the world. their sight and then the angel shows up and says, why are you looking this way? He's coming back the same way. So we're living in that, as Jay's put at that who is time frame

of the Holy Spirit living in us. It's a really powerful study. The presence is the key to it and the key of the cloud and the presence of God. That's why if you go back to the beginning of the Bible and you read that Genesis 3 passage of the fall of man,

what does it say that they hit from? It says they hit from the presence of the Lord. So you think, what is the problem with sin at its core? It's that it would, it causes us to withdraw from the presence of the Lord, which is the very thing that we're looking for. We withdraw from the very source of life itself. That is the nature of sin. It's not an arbitrary violation of a commandment that got gave. It is simply to withdraw from the presence and hide from the presence of the Lord. And that's what Jesus is going to actually solve. That's good.

Well, I wanted to bring this up. So in a prophecy given to Ezekiel, which when we get to the next chapter, chapter three, you know, most people go to Ezekiel 36 and 37, draw different conclusions based on whatever particular brand of evangelical group with. But we'll also go there. But what I wanted just to bring up, because I thought about how to do this. cleverly, is in Ezekiel 40

through Ezekiel 48, it's all temple language. And if I just went there and you read the headings, so like I have a 1984 NIV, I've already said my

thoughts on this. We've had way better translations since then. But in this, if you go to Ezekiel 40 and just read, the little heading. It says the new temple area. And then like Midway,

it has all these courts and gates. So you go to the end of chapter 40 and you'll see rooms for the priest, rooms for preparing sacrifices. Then at the end, the very end of 40, it just says the temple. And then in 41, it says rooms for the priest that whole chapter 42.

Chapter 43 is the one I wanted to read a little bit of. It says the glory returns to the temple. And so if you just get a little sampling of it, in Ezekiel 43, verse 6, it says, while the man was standing beside me, now he's having a vision, so keep that in mind. I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple. He said, son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the souls of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever. And the reason I'm reading this is when Jesus was having that conversation with Nathaniel at the end of John 1, you remember what he said?

He said, I'll tell you the truth. You'll see heaven open and the angels of God ascending and descending on the son of man. So you go back and start reading this, you think, what is all this talking about? And look, it's much debate. There's people that actually have Ezekiel 40 through 48 as like yet to have. occurred. Yeah, most people. Yeah, I'd say the majority of the religious world,

they're saying this is going to happen in a future destination. And the reason I'm going here is to say, it seems to me that John is going back saying, remember that vision that Ezekiel had about the temple? Well, it makes sense when Jesus goes into the temple, says, I don't like what this is turned into. Correct. Because you can see what it was supposed to be here in Ezekiel's vision.

And when he says, I am the temple, I mean, he doesn't say that exact phrase. John throws in, which we're fixed to read it, the temple he was talking about was himself. Was himself, and it would die and be raised. And Zach brought up a phrase that, what did you call it, Second Temple. Second Temple Judaism.

Judaism. So I feel like we should explain that just because I brought up Ezekiel. And by the way, I didn't read all the other little paragraph heads. But if you do, you see this language in the New Testament, especially in Revelation. And I think it's important. So like chapter 43 in the second half talks about the altar. chapter 44 talks about the prince, the Levites, and the priest. Just think Hebrews how this is all going to make sense in the new temple.

Chapter 45 talks about the division of the land, which you can think about what Jesus said in Matthew 28, when he said, go into all nations, because God had chosen the Israelites, and there literally was boundaries of people who worshipped idols, and then God's promised land. Remember, this Exodus resulted in promised land. Well, it literally was the earth.

That's why when you have strange stories in the Bible, and we'll bring this back up when we get to John 3, but I'm going to give you a strange one. I don't know if you've ever thought about. You remember when Neiman had leprosy, and he went to one of God's priests, and they said, now this guy wasn't a part of the Israel nation. and they told him what to go do.

You need to dip seven times. And we'll read that when we get John 3, but go dip seven times in the Jordan River, which is where John the Baptist was baptized in people. It's just too much. The Ford we talked about. Yeah, it's too much to be a coincidence. So he goes and dips seven times.

Well, he's healed. But I don't know if you remember that after that happened, he started, he said, here's what we're going to do. Start gathering up some dirt from. here. And he literally, this is kind of a, what was that old Western, the guy who carried the body, lonesome dove. It's kind of a lonesome dove moment. He's like, I'm just carrying a dirt back. I'm going to haul this dirt back because he was deeming this land. There's something about this land. And he had been healed. And I think you're going to see that fulfillment when Jesus said,

go into all nations. He like broke down the, because, he defeated the gods. And when Zach gave his little speech while ago about the whole history, one thing he did mention, but yes, man's sin and man was the problem, but there was also these evil celestial beings roaming around, and I'm using it plural,

because Psalm 82 says it's plural, you know, angels. And even when you get to Second Peter and Jude, they talk about these angels who were held in gloomy dungeons and all that, You know, so it's like there's a celestial force that chose just like humans not to image God. And so it's kind of like man went in cahoots with these celestial beings. And then you have this dispersion of nations, which God chose one. And so now we have that problem because it's now all nations outside of Israel,

well, they're bowing down to whatever God that's out there. So it's like all these. Yeah, but to your point, those are. gods are bound down to, I think this is very, very notable. These aren't like fake gods. These aren't like made up entities. These are actual

real, the term would be Elohims, not Yahweh, but like little gods with a lowercase G. In the divine realm, in the divine council, there's a divine council that's new

theology that, look, that I'm open to. Yeah. Because was that what Zach's bringing up? I recently discovered just, you know, I don't know all the details. Maybe you can help me with this. But like in 2010, there was a lot of notable new transcripts found from the scrolls. And I'm not sure it was the Dead Sea Scrolls. But I was reading something about this.

But it clarified and validated a lot of these Hebrew words used. And the one he's mentioning is, I think, think the Psalm 82, isn't it? Elohim's what's mentioned in multiple, I mean, it's mentioned in... I know it's mentioned there, and I think maybe Deuteronomy 32, there's... You could be a... Yeah, the idea, though, is Elohim is a Hebrew word for God, not to be confused with Yahweh, which is the one true God, the supreme being,

but there is this word, Elohim's that's used throughout the Old Testament to talk about, like... It's also used as like morning stars, and Sunday. of God, which, you know, it goes back to that Genesis 6. I think the basic theology on this is that you have Genesis 2 and 3, man's rebellion. But then you have Genesis 6, which it's like there's a celestial being, sons of God, rebellion, in the God's space, I guess. And so then they come down and somehow another get to. out of humanity. They procreate with humans and create.

Think Goliath, you know, giant. Nephlam, they create these. We talked about this with the fuzzy creature. Yeah, well, the more I've studied this, you don't think there's something to it. Yeah. And even you kind of see glimpses of it in the New Testament. But then you have this third rebellion,

which is basically what calls God to choose a nation, which then the land became important because you have the Tower of Babel. Right. And I really think there's something to that. It's like the evil powers. Then you had the earthly kingdoms developed, tied in with what Zach is referring to,

the little G gods who didn't retain their place, you know. And then you have man's rebellion. So it seems like that's all working together, and then God chooses a plan to not only defeat the powers, to defeat the gods, but also to redeem humanity, or at least have it offered. I mean, you definitely see it in the Tower of Babel, because Genesis 6, where you have the sons of, what's the word, I think the term is the men of renown, is the phraseology in the scripture, men of renown.

Same word in Hebrew used in Genesis 11 when it talks about, let's go make a name for ourselves. us build a tower to heaven so that we can make a name for ourselves and not be scattered. So Michael Heiser points this out in his book, The Unseen Realm, that what he proposes is that whatever created this, the Nephilim with the sons of God coming into the women and having sex with these earthly women creating these nephalum, this is something that happened like again. It wasn't like a one-time event. It happened. it created however horrible it was pre-flood it got really bad because of this then it happens

again in genesis 11 which if you think about genesis 11 like up until genesis 11 there were there weren't any nations that wasn't a thing like nations were were instituted by god at the tower of babel because of what they were trying to accomplish and god says i'm going to I'm going to scatter them, and I'm going to put these nations under these Elohims who ended up, they end up worshipping these foreign gods, these created beings that God, Yahweh had created. And then the very next chapter, that's when God pulls his portion. Genesis 12, that's when God pulls his own people, which was Israel, and then the whole flow of redemptions continues from there. But if you think about all of this, like where does it all begin?

It all began in the Garden of Eden when heaven and earth were together. When it wasn't a separation of the divine heavenly realm and earth. Everything was according to God's will. It was being enacted. That's why when Jesus teaches us to pray, what does he say? We pray for thy will to be done where on earth? Well, how? Well, just like it is in heaven.

that's Heiser points it's it's edinic language it's returning back to eden and so the temple is a key part of this because the temple became that that kind of prototype place where god would live because god lives in we live in our house what does god live in his house where's his house it's the temple and what jesus is doing here in john too is he's about to really expand our understanding of what it means to be the house of god he's going to obliterate the whole thing that we thought. And by doing so, he's actually going to destroy Second Temple Judaism, which is why Second Temple Judaism isn't even a thing anymore. Why? Because there's no Second temple. The first temple was destroyed in like 586 by the Babylonian invasion. Second Temple went

down in 8070. There is no third temple. Yeah, and that's where we come in. I want to mention that because Jerry's brought Ezekiel into it. Exactly when Ezekiel's having these prophetic visions, is the time frame Zach just mentioned. It's right. It's coming out of the Babylonian captivity. And so the second temple gets built. And so that's the, everything you read about in privacy,

you've got to remember something. Here's where people make a huge mistake when it comes to in the Bible. There has to be a then and there before there's a later. I mean, those were being spoken into something in the moment. In the moment,

that's when that second temple was being built. It was the same temple that would be renovated for almost 50 years prior to Jesus's coming. That's what Herod and the whole renovating of the Second Temple. But a little good it did them because as I just said, the whole thing was wiped out in 80-70.

But instead of waiting on what was read in Exodus, and then and there in the Second Temple, instead of waiting on that, we're saying it's already here. I mean, that's the difference where we are. That is the difference. So what Jesus is going to do on like the Mount of Olives, for example, in Mark 13 and Matthew 24 or 25, when he's going to make this prediction

that the temple structure is coming down, you have to understand. Deuteronomy 12, it lays out the case that if there's going to be a sacrifice, that that has to happen in the temple. And that's where the priesthood is located in the temple. Everything is centered. Just put this in your mind for a second

when we talk about the temple of the second temple, which was being expanded, I think it was called the Herodian expansion. The entire Old Testament system is anchored and centered in this structure that was initially built by Solomon and then destroyed and rebuilt. The whole system is there. If that thing goes down, then there is a major problem because now this is the point that the Hebrew writer makes.

There's no sacrifice for sin anymore. Like there's not, because you don't have a priesthood, you don't have a sacrificial system, you don't have a temple. Like the whole system can't bear the weight of it. And it just, so I think what Jesus is establishing here when he says, hey, destroy this temple and I rebuilt it in three days, talking about his body. I mean, I don't, I think we've got to see this. Not as, this isn't some add-on in the New Testament. No, what we're talking about here is the centerpiece of the entire. biblical narrative being realized in the person of Jesus Christ.

That's what we're talking about here. Yeah. No, that's good. Jason, did you have something? You were adding. I was looking for that verse. I was looking for that verse that said that we bear the name of Jesus in the New Testament when that was talking about name, but I couldn't find it.

But, no, I agree. I'm glad we got into this because, you know, when I read those eight chapters in Ezekiel, I was like, I mean, this, this, this. is something that from their perspective, when we read what's fixed to happen, and you realize how they viewed the temple, this was like the most controversial. I mean, this would, in my mind, would it be too far to say this would be like you go into the White House, Congress, because we have different locations, but their hub was the temple. and you going up there and trying to drive everybody out saying,

hey, there's a new system here. Well, think about when they killed him, what was their accusation against him right before they killed him? He said that he would destroy this temple and rebuild it in three days, which is not actually what he said. That's kind of interesting how they twisted it a little bit. What he says is, whatever that happened. We need to find that verse.

Where is that? It's Acts 15. Oh, the bear of the name of Jesus. 16 and 17. After this, I return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild and I will restore it, that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord. Even all the Gentiles who bear my name. That's what I was looking for. Because it goes back to what Zach said in the Tower of Bible when they said, let's make a name for ourselves. And so now you see how Jesus is having the opposite effect on the. that. He's creating a new creation within the creation that bears the name of Jesus, which goes into this imaging. It's for a purpose. Purpose now is God revealing himself in a temple

where God and humans would meet, which we didn't talk about, which is awesome to think about, but it's also dangerous. There was danger involved in all of that. That's why you had the rules and, you know, all the laws that were put into effect on how we're going to go about this. So, I mean, you do have to consider the shocking nature of what Jesus is doing here, because I would point you to at least Jesus and Stephen, we're both martyred for basically saying what Jesus is saying here. So that statement in John, too, you know, comes up again. at the end of Jesus' life. And because they do take it out.

They do change what he said because I want to point this out. He doesn't say that he will destroy the temple. He never says that. What he says is Jesus answered them, destroy this temple. So he said, you guys can destroy this temple. And in three days, I'll raise it up. So if you notice what Jesus is doing here, the posture of the position he's taken when it comes to the temple is, you can tear this one down

and that's fine because I'm going to rebuild it in three days. They did not understand what he was talking about, which is why they said, it's taken us 46 years to build this temple. That's more talking about what Al mentioned. The temple had already been built. What they're talking about there is the expansion,

the Herodian expansion. But then the temple was destroyed in AD 70 and I think where all the confusion happens is the way I read it. So if you go to where are some of the prophecies about the temple that people

view as the second coming or the final coming? Are you from the Old Testament? No, in the Gospels. When Jesus Yeah, one is... Like, where's it, Matthew 24? Let me just read a couple stanzas of that because I do want to bring up something where all this controversy comes up.

But Matthew 24, you know, here I am with all the language which we've already talked about, you'll start reading in verse one, it says Jesus left the temple and was walking away. So I just want to stop here before I keep reading. I'm not coming up with a narrative and then trying to make it fit.

The reason we think like we do is because we're reading all these verses. Right. And I mean, Jesus left, he didn't just leave the garden or, you know, some town, or it just says, He left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. Whatever was fixed to happen, that's what the context of the discussion, you know, would you agree?

It seems pretty simple to me, but I'm just telling you, people read this and go crazy. He says, do you see all these things? Well, what things? The temple and all its buildings. The stones. The stones, yeah. Or I think the arena. Well, in Martin 13's account of it, they actually say,

look at these wonderful stones. Yeah. Are these wonderful buildings? So look, then he says in verse two, do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another. Everyone will be thrown down. Now just hold it. when did that happen?

8070. It happened in this statement, if you want to take it literally, it happened at AD 70. Now, I get it, there's a view of people out there that thinks everything happened in AD 70, and I'm not saying that. You know, immediately it terrifies people because they're like, oh, and the reason this becomes. Yeah, we're not saying that the second coming of Christ happened, has already happened. But let me just make the point because I want to at least say the reason people believe that, which I think is a legitimate reason, even though I disagree with their conclusion.

Because then at some point he says, so I guess what would that be 36? At that time, so now I'm in Matthew 24, but I've skipped down all the way down to the end. and it says at that time the son of man will appear in the sky so people read that one think well it can't be talking about the destruction of Jerusalem it's got to become the second time and I'm like no wait a minute

it doesn't necessarily mean that's factual because what do you mean? Well they're saying that it can't be the destruction of Jerusalem because now you have Jesus appearing in the sky right yeah and they're like, well, which is it? So I will agree that that is a tough thing to wrap your head around.

And I'm just trying to be totally transparent. I don't want to just tell you what I believe without giving you the other side, because when I read that, I used to be confused by it. I thought, well, that sounds like when Jesus is coming back. It sounds like the final resurrection. Now, I will say now, since I've been doing this for 40 years, walking with Jesus, I now have realized that part of the reason I think this is misunderstanding. understood is because people think he's way off and like, boy, it's going to take him a long

time to travel back. But I've now realized that they're looking at that wrong because if you have, if you're an imperishable eternal being, you're no longer in space and time as we now understand it. So let me, I like to share two things that support your point. Okay. One is in the Mark 13 account when they asked the question in verse three, as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple. So he's clearly on the temple here. Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, tell us when these things will be and what will be the sign

when all these things are to be accomplished. And that's what they're talking about because he just said, all the temple's coming down, all these stones are going to be turned over. He just said that. And they're like, okay, when's that going to happen? That was our question. When's it going to happen?

He skipped down to verse 29, and he gives the answer to that. He says, so also when you see these things taking place, you know that at the end, you know that he is near and at the very gates, truly I say to you, and this is the line, this generation will not pass until all these things have taken place. So in Jewish culture and in biblical literacy, a generation was understood to be about 40 years. Jesus said this 40 years before it actually happened. So I think... Well, that's true, but Zach, I was going to say, you went to Mark 13, but even in Matthew 24, if you'll just let me keep reading,

he says the same thing. But Matthew 24 is a little different because Matthew 24... Well, hold on. Let me just read it. Let me just read it. At that time, the son, a man, this is verse 30 of Matthew 24, will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn.

they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and glory. He will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds from one end of the heavens on the other. Now learn this lesson. He talks about the fig tree, but then in verse 33, even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened,

which is, I think, exactly what you just read. Now, then I think this is interesting. Heaven and Earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. So just stop right there. So now when I see heaven and earth, you know what my first thought is? in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Then I think about the tabernacle or the temple. Well, what happened there?

Heaven and earth was overlapping because God was making his presence known, and it was within the Jewish culture of this is, since you're my chosen nation. So now, if you tie this in with John chapter 2, when he drives that temple out, which is the place heaven and earth meet, God and humans meet, God's holy nation is set apart from all other nations. When you read the Matthew 24, I'm like, okay, now Jesus became the temple, and then it's validated by his prediction that the temple that was, even though it happened, what, 30 years later, 30

and change, that validates him being the temple. Yeah. So to me it's a process. It's a good word is vindication. And I think that's the son of man reference there. You don't like validation? I like validation. I like vindication better because I like both.

It's a stronger term of what's happening, particularly when you read about the son of man coming in the clouds. Like to your point, we misinterpret that because we just go back and read Daniel 7, which is what it's a reference of. And the picture in Daniel 7, the direction of the Son of Man in Daniel 7 is not the Son of Man coming to Earth. It's not the Second Coming. It's the Son of Man going before the Ancient of Days to receive authority to rule over the nations. He's receiving, it's the kingdom coming.

So the language in Daniel 7 is not the language of, I think it's very clear. It's not the language of the End Times, which is the language of Christ coming before the Ancient of Days. of receiving authority and dominion and an everlasting kingdom. That's why we say the kingdom is here now and to come, but it is here and now. So when you look at the language, but I use Mark 13,

only because I think Matthew 24, there are some end-time prophecies in Matthew 24. I don't think there's any end-time stuff in Mark 13. So it makes it cleaner for the discussion. But when he says that, but basically the end is near, he says that several times in Mark's, Mark's account, Mark 13, the word end, if he was talking about the end times, he would have used a Greek

term called eschatos, which is what we get our word eschatology from. That's not the word he uses. The word that he uses is the word telos, which is what we get the word teleology from, which means intent, purpose, design. What's the end goal here? Like if you ask me, what's the end here? What are you after? So what's happening in March 13 is he saying like, like there's a consummate or there's an inauguration coming There's something I got something I'm trying to do here. And I'm going to do it. This is Jesus talking. It's really what he laid out in John too, that you're going to destroy the temple, you humans, and here's what's going to happen.

Here's the purpose of the whole thing that you guys have missed it from the very beginning. Here's the purpose of the whole thing. I am going to live with humans. No, I'm going to live in humans. I'm going to be the cornerstone in the temple. And all of all of the believers, you guys will be the living. built upon me the cornerstone. That's the intention.

That's the tell us. That's the design. We're out of time. We're way over. But man, the rabbit hole that we will continue to go down. We'll pick it up here next time on Unashame. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast.

And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.