Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1061 | Jase Dismantles Major Misconceptions About Baptism — What It Is & What It Definitely Isn't

Episode Date: March 21, 2025

Jase declares that he felt a swell of American pride when he heard about Elon Musk’s rescue of the stranded space crew, even though he thinks Heaven will be way more fun than space travel. Al reveals his caveman roots with a single word, and the guys explore the myth of “big” and “small” works for Christ, though such things can never be measured in this life. Zach proposes that shame and pride are merely two sides of the same coin, not opposites. Plus, how did Jesus baptize people into His death, burial, and resurrection before it even happened? In this episode: John 3, verses 22-30; John 4, verse 2; 1 Corinthians 1, verse 12; 1 Corinthians 12, verse 12; 1 Corinthians 15, verse 19 --- Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashame. I was, as I was looking next door, I saw the women going into the duck call room. So it made me curious. The women? Well, just some women. Some women.

And, yeah, I wasn't even sure exactly who they were. And I thought, what are they pulling off next door? Because now they've started filming earlier when we filmed sometime. Yeah. And I go over there, and it's, they're having an all-women duck call room special. I don't know if it was a fishing day. Yeah, that means they all got something they wanted to do. So their guys are not on it.

The guys are not on it. And so you got Martin's wife is in there, Brittany. I saw Bella, who's not really related to the podcast other than we just, we love Bella, Willie's daughter. and my wife was there, which I guess that was to bring some class to the proceedings. And then... Well, you're not even on that point. My parting line to Hunter, who's their producer, I said, well, it didn't work well for Ghostbusters. But maybe...

See, I don't know what that means. Well, he laughed, which I figured he would get it because they did. They remade Ghostbusters, but it was all women. Oh, really? Yeah. I must have missed that. Yeah, I did, too. The fact that you didn't get it, Jace, is evidence that that that's the thing.

I don't think I should be viewed as some kind of cultural guru. I'm not sure what's happening. Pop culture reference. When's the last movie you went to watch it at a movie theater? At a theater. Missy and I, and notice I said Missy and us while when I said. Except for Chosen. You got to leave out the Chosen because we know you're going to watch that.

Which, by the way, I am fixing to go to the season five premiere. Oh. Front row seat. They asked me, because I went to season four. That was in L.A. Season five is not. Where is it? It's in Texas.

Oh, Texas. I can't remember the name where it's it. So we're doing that tomorrow, missing a. Well, that's exciting. We're driving over. Yeah. It's like when you said they had the women, you know, it's like my wife, I think year one marriage, I referred to her as the wife.

He's like, I have a name. It is Mrs. That's why. Look, I never forgot that. 30 some odd years later. Let's not, let's lose the thee and the wife, generic term. Well, Dad's was always your woman, you know. She didn't like that.

She didn't like that. Which is, that's kind of a, almost a caveman connotation. Like, you club your woman, you know. When you read John four, you. yesterday and you were reading the text, you actually, I felt like your inner feel come out when you said, woman, because the verse says, woman, a time has come, but you read it, woman, I did. You know what, I actually thought that.

I thought, I don't think he accentuated that word. Do you think Jesus did? No, I don't think you did it like, woman, but you did. You said, woman. And I was thinking, woman. That's my inner dad. You're exactly right. He came out.

Phil? Are you here? Is that you? Well, we always like to have some Philisms on this podcast. That's a caring tradition. It is strange that they referred to her just as the Samaritan woman. Yeah. And nobody ever mentions her name. John never got it, which you would think because of what happens at the end of it, which we talked about, that she would probably, I mean, they found out of her. Somebody got her name, but it just never. But maybe it's just because he's, wrote it sort of as a metaphor for anybody. It could have been anybody. Yeah, I think so. Well, she became the Samaritan woman in that region for Jesus. Right, right, right. Well, and a lot of people believe that

she was the catalyst for the kingdom emerging in that whole entire area. Yeah, well, because later on, I think, is it, Acts 8? Yeah. Philip. Philip goes there. Yeah. Well, and all of a sudden, people are coming out of the woodwork to come to Jesus. Well, the foundation had already been late. hey this just in al god had a plan he did have a plan breaking new broke news broken news i've been on that kick

about everything now because it's like the common sense world now which we've talked about yeah but it's like things that were common sense when we were kids all of a sudden are common sense again yeah it's like we're back you're a man i'm a woman okay great seems simple yeah you get stuck in space

hey send someone else to say Hey, we're going to, yeah, you're up there for nine months. We're going to come get you. Yeah, I thought about that. I thought, you know, because that was a good moment. You know, everybody's America, you know. Oh, it's exciting, yeah. But I just thought all these commentators getting so just lit up about it.

I thought, well, you have no idea as a spirit-indeweled person. Yeah. Traveling through space is like way down the list on cool things that we're. going to get to be doing. I mean, we're in touch with the one who holds the atoms and molecules together. We're not going to need rocket ships when we leave here. Or, yeah, just in general. I mean, we're turning that on its head.

Yeah. I mean, how many galaxies are there out there if you want to go? Oh, my goodness. And some of these now, these new telescopes that, when you look at them, the web telescope and some of these new things, it is incredible. we can see. I mean. It's way bigger.

Yeah, the beautiful. We think it's one thing and then you get to the edge of that. Oh, wait. It actually goes on. They just had this. I saw this one picture recently and there's all these galaxies, spiral galaxies, is just one picture of all of them. You're saying about a galaxy, ours is so big.

We couldn't get across it in multiple lifetimes. And you're looking at like, I guess billions, millions, billions, I don't know how you'd count them, of galaxies like ours out there. I mean, you see a picture of that, and this is mind-blowing. That's why they used to say, space, the final frontier. That should be God. God is the final. Well, that's who they were looking for.

It was funny because all the Star Trek people were humanists, and yet they were looking for something bigger than human beings. They thought they could, like, carry the human thing out, and they'd find all these little beings, and some of them were protoplasm, and some of them were, everything looked, everything that was humanistic would look like us with just some weird, you know, things moved around. They still had all the basics. Yeah, they had eyeballs.

They had a mouth. And so it was like all these things they were finding. But it was always this human spirit. But they kept looking. And the question was, what are you looking for? I was just comforted in the fact that they all spoke English because I was nervous about, you know, but all the aliens speak English. And it was incredible, man. Well, for 60s television, that was the way it worked.

I think one of the last movies I saw, which I left halfway through it, was I think it was Tommy Lee Jones and maybe Brad Pitt. They went to space looking for God. That's what it's about. And they pretty much got up there and said, he's not here. That was the movie. Which, once again, I have no recollection of it, so it must not have done well. I don't even know it.

A couple years ago. And that's two very good actors. I think I brought it up on a former podcast. Whatever you do, don't go see that. Oh, man. That's funny. Yeah, that'll run you away. All right, so we want to pick up then.

So we want to go back because we had Lisa on, and we had skipped a section of text because she was here and wanted to talk about the Samaritan woman. We wanted to get her take on it. So we skipped over this text. This really, I mean, I don't know what John had in mind when he did it, but he basically repeats what he had said back in chapter one about John the Baptist. I mean, it comes up again because there becomes this little rivalry between disciples.

Is that a fair way to put what happened? Well, I personally think, maybe in contrast to Zach, since we had this discussion about what it means to be born again via Jesus to Nicodemus, and he talked about being born of water in the spirit, well, right before this, I mean, you're just going back. to chapter one about when john the baptist declared jesus the lamb of god who takes away the sin of the world and he kind of gives that recap of jesus's baptism but then all of a sudden you know like we do it becomes i think part of this narrative what we're fixed to read i think one thing that stands out is John the Baptist was a pretty humble guy.

He had a role to play. But if you put yourself in his shoes, it's always a temptation to be like, yeah, I'm the guy. I'm the guy that points to the guy. But even then, there's a sense of pride in all of us. You think that's a big deal. But you'll see in this conversation, he didn't have that pride about him.

Right. When I even thought about it when Jesus said, I think it was in Matthew 11, 11, where Jesus says there's really no greater person that's ever been born on the planet. Well, right. I'm saying. And then he says, but the least in the kingdom is greater than it. I mean, like, it's just, I mean, even Jesus puts it out there like, this is a wonderful human being, but the least in the kingdom.

I think C.S. Lewis, Zach, you're more familiar with his writings than me, and you have a better memory. but didn't he say that part of the struggle when it comes to roles in God's kingdom and Christianity is those who have what we would deem big positions they have to struggle with pride and those who have what we deem is not very lesser positions yeah lesser positions they have to struggle with shame you know overcoming shame that was a quote he said about that. Which is actually really accurate.

Yeah. You just see that anecdotally in everyday life. Well, it's like the evil temptation is always there. There's a lot of ways. Which, don't you think that's exactly what John had in mind when we read about Nicodemus conversation with Jesus and then we turn right around and go to this. It's from one extreme to the other. I mean, you see the two extremes.

Just worldly whatever, filled with shame, multiple relationships. I mean, because most people would say, boy, she needs a counselor. Yeah. Which is what the Holy Spirit is referred to. The paraclitus sum there. I mean, we're going to clean this life up. Yeah.

And then you have a religious guy who's secretly coming. Not because it's a pride thing. Right. And I, yeah, that's why I brought it up. Yeah. I think those two. On both sides. On both sides.

I mean, shame is actually, ironically, we talked about it in the last podcast, more kind of how to impact with shame actually is a version of pride i mean that's what it is it's well explain that to us because i was using that because i did a c s lewis uh quote zack showing the opposite ends of the spectrum but yeah the the pride side on the i'm proud and i'm arrogant and i think i'm better than is prideful because you're concerned about your own like you've elevated yourself but shame what shame is is that it's it's an over emphasis on your own like it's afraid, you're afraid, like self-pity or whatever?

Well, it's more like I don't want you to see me because I want to, I want you to see me as something great because of my mind, I'm actually, it's actually a weird perversion of pride, but it's like I don't want you to look at me. So what guilt is different too, by the way, I meant to say this in the last episode, because guilt causes you to look up towards God and say, like, help. Like, and shame is like, don't look at me because I don't want to be seen.

The only reason why you wouldn't want to be seen is because you're prideful. I mean, I know that's harsh, and I don't mean it to be harsh. I mean, I'm struggling with this as well. But when I'm in my shame, it's like, I'm covering up. I don't want you to see me because I'm too prideful to be known. I don't want you to think bad at me. And it also puts motives on other people's act, to your point, because it says, if you really knew me, there's no way you could love me.

If you really did. So you're saying, I'm protecting you from yourself because, you know, I'm just too bad. But think about how arrogant that is. You're exactly right. It really becomes this reverse position of pride to say that it's like the person who lies and says, well, I'm not going to tell you what's really going on because you really can't handle what I can handle. So I'm just going to lie to you about it. As if somehow that's going to help the situation.

Well, the problem is, in a therapeutic culture that we live in now, like we want to take shame is almost like we are a victim. And we are a victim to some degree, but we're also perpetrated. And shame comes in, like, that's something you have to take before the cross, and you have to repent of it and bring to God repeatedly, by the way. And I think that when we, like in the context, even in the kingdom, it's funny because there are positions in the kingdom, too. People have different talents and people are doing, some are doing, quote, air quotes here if you're not watching big things. And then some people do little things. But I love the book by Francis Schaefer called No Little People, because he says in there that in God's kingdom, there's just only God things. So, yeah, it doesn't really matter what you're equipped for and what position that the Lord's put you in.

In God's economy, there's not a difference between what Billy Graham did and what my mom did. No one knows my mom's name. I guess that some people know now because of the blind, but it was just a faithful service to God. And in God's eyes and in the grand scheme of things, like, no, they were both serving the Lord in their respective ministries. And there's not a difference. There's not a bit, oh, your mom did a little thing and Billy Graham did a big thing. No, they did God things. No, I like that.

And in fact, I was mentioning that I was just in Denham Springs speaking and this guy, Rick Gage, who has been doing this ministry for 35 years. He went and spent time with the Billy Graham people and saw what they were doing these huge stadiums. And he saw that it was effective to reach people. But then culture changed. It wasn't so easy to do that and get people to come to things like that. But he knew the gospel would still go out.

So he just took it, scaled it down. And he still does it in stadium. but they're little football stadiums all around the country, and they're still leading people to Christ. But, I mean, I had never heard of Rick until I met him and go tell ministries, but I thought just what you were saying, Zach, he now is reaching people

because that's what he's been called and led to do. He's an old football player and football coach, and he says, you know, I'm comfortable in a football stadium, but I just want to use it to reach people. Well, I think 1st Corinthians 12 comes to mind, especially where we're at. I mean, Jesus had just introduced this concept, of being born of the spirit.

Yeah. And, you know, when Paul's talking to a church, who obviously were having a lot of problems, he had to remind them of the gospel in chapter 15. And they had a lot of similar issues that he addresses in chapter one that we're going to read in this section on, is there some thing about who does the baptizing

and how many people are following, you know, because you baptize people. So the people you physically dumped under the water, then were calling themselves your disciples. Yeah, that's fixed to be a thing that we're going to read about. But I want to read this First Corinthians well because I think it kind of clears up what we're talking about. He said in verse 12, 12, 12, 12, the body is made as a unit,

though it is made up of many parts, and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. we were all baptized by one spirit into one body, whether Jews or Greek, slave, or free. We were all given the one spirit to drink, think living water. Now, the body is not made up of one part, but of many. If the foot should say, because I'm not a hand,

I do not belong to the body, it would not for that reason cease to be a part of the body. Because here we go. We're all in a body, but you're like, we're a hand, well, I'm a foot. We got different roles. and if the ear should say, because I'm not an eye, I do not belong to the body. It would not, for that reason, cease to be part of the body.

If the whole body were an eye, I mean, Paul is getting funny. Yeah. Just imagine the body is just a... One giant eye. Yeah, it's humor. It's funny. Where would the sense of hearing be? Like, I see you.

Can you hear me? No, I don't have an ear. I'm all just an eye. Wasn't there a cartoon? That was there was just an eye? It was a, was it monsters? Well, anyway. It's worse.

It says if the whole body were in here, so now, I mean, you're visualizing this. Just, we were just all giant ears. Where would the sense of smell be? Well, because you, you're just a big ear. Wax-filled. Hairy ear. But here's the point, verse 18.

But in fact, God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts but one body. I mean, there's something special, beautiful, thought-provoking about that paragraph. We're all uniquely created by God. And then we're all recreated in Jesus with our unique qualities and experiences. And everybody's role. Kellett told that Sunday in his sermon that his mama told him that he had two years and one mouth when he went to college.

She says, that means you listen twice as much as you speak. I think there's some truth in that. God wants you to listen. Arkansas wisdom, Maddie. So read our text. All right, let me read our text. So remember we had had that whole sort of sermon, I guess lesson that Jesus taught Nicodemus.

And he went through the process of lifted up. We talked about the desert and the snakes. And then John 316. Then he talked about light. He talked about dark. And so then John just inserts this piece. And he says, after this, verse 22 of chapter 3, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside

where he spent some time with him and baptized. which is interesting because this is the first time you see this happening. Well, you want to just read chapter 4-1 now? Yeah. Because it is, you immediately get, I remember the first time I ever read that? I thought, oh, I didn't know Jesus baptized people. But then when he gets to chapter 4, the Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, which goes into, I think you called it dueling dunkers.

Yeah, the dueling dunkers. It's pretty clever, Al. Yeah. Although in fact, this is 4-2, it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. Which is interesting that he chose, and Paul did too. Remember because Paul said, I'm not going to baptize? Because he didn't want it to be associated to anything more than in preparation.

Yeah, I think what was happening in the baptism was more important than who was doing the baptizing. Exactly. Which is still the point. For people who become famous for following Jesus, this is an issue. Yeah. I get that issue come up in my life a lot. Yeah.

Because people come up and say, will you baptize me? Well, I'm like, why? And they're like, well, you know, you've always, they'll give a little speech that is nice towards me. And I appreciate it. Yeah, and I appreciate it. But I'm like, you've missed the point. It has no. Nothing.

It's not me. I know you think this is going to make a cool little Instagram picture, which in some cases, that was what the focus was. So now I do not, you know, go out and say, oh, I'll, you know, I'll baptize anybody. I'm going to have a 40-minute discussion to you about Jesus. Right. And because you're missing the point, which, I mean, look, maybe I'm reading too much into that. But.

No, I mean, it happened in the first entry where I could have not. happened today for the same reason. I think, I think too, this baptism, the ones we're talking about here between John and Jesus' disciples, this is maybe controversy. I don't know if it is or not, but I think it's different. Well, it's controversial, because I have an answer, I think I know what you're fixed to say, and then I'm going to give a response to what I think you're fixed to say. So I'm turned here. James knows you so well, Zay. Now he's anticipating. Well, that gets nervous when you talk, talking about baptism, but he gets nervous a lot because it sure is in the Bible a lot. I love,

I love baptism. I just, yeah, I just, well, here's my point. I think that the baptism that we do now, I would say post-resurrection of Jesus is a different baptism. It's the baptism of Romans 6 that connects you with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. So I don't know if Jesus, I mean, how do you pre-baptize somebody into something that hasn't occurred yet? Because if you read the language of Roman 6, it's pretty clear that you're baptized into his death. We were therefore buried with him through baptism in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead, we may be raised as well to live a new life. So I think that baptism is the one in Acts 2 moving forward. But that baptism, I don't think it occurred until Acts chapter 2. Well, obviously that's right.

I knew that's where you were going to go. And I think it's a good point. So I think you have to think about something here John the Baptist why was he baptizing people? Repentance Well there was more to it than that it says something else every time preparing the way for the kingdom

oh man this is this is Starvedon's baptism as repentant John baptized telling them to believe in the one who was to come yeah he was a he was a forerunner to Jesus Right. And some of it was to provide the impetus of who Jesus was.

I get it. There was repentance involved. But the whole point was Jesus. This is all a person. The Bible, baptism, the Old Testament. I mean, when you just go through the Old Testament, it's the same pattern. People are created. They have life.

And then they fall. There's folly. There's sin. there's suffering from consequences of people's sin and spiritual forces of evil and then you have this process

where they start over it's like a new creation I mean think the flood I mean what happened everybody was just had just completely abandoned and God finds one family the earth

goes from the waters being parted where people live to a flood and I'm using this because of first three obviously but and what happened is a new beginning and new creation you're like oh we fix that no then then we have more problems

pretty quickly you know yeah so you know here comes Abraham it's the same process over and over that's why I heard somebody say that the only three people in the Old Testament that were deemed blameless and upright.

Job. Job, Noah, and Abraham. But when you think about what Jesus did, and you think about their stories, they were like shadows of what Jesus would ultimately do, which was bring new creation. Because in all of those stories, new creation eventually came,

a new beginning eventually came. So Jesus did the same thing. So my only point is, John the battle is the point to Jesus, that's why I think it would be awkward for Jesus to say, to be baptizing people personally, saying, well, you're, I'm going to baptize you in the one that is to come when he's actually here. Right. So his disciples did that because you got to remember he hasn't revealed,

well, he's revealing that the king is here. He doesn't even say in our context till chapter 12 that he's now come. says, is coming, it's coming, even though he's physically there. Exactly. It still had to wait. I think Zach hit on it a while back when he talked about the Gentile baptism, we call it the proselytizing of Gentiles into Judaism. So they would have been familiar with baptism.

It was very rare, but that was to bring Gentiles into Judaism. So this mindset that I think God was trying to convey to the Jewish people was now we're talking about a baptism into something else. Yeah. This is something beyond. Judaism. So I think that's what he was doing. I mean, that's just a... No, I agree, but I think the reason baptism is so misunderstood in the religious world is because they define it. Yeah. And then they go back to the Bible and just, like, read it through that

lens. Right. I mean, look, whatever you think about baptism, there's a whole discussion here. They are literally baptizing people. That's right. Followers of Jesus and John the Baptist right here. now. I mean, they were taking people under the water and doing that. You're like, well, that wasn't important. I mean, what was it in here? At to Zach's point, John himself says, in one case, it's just water. And in another case, the Spirit of God is involved in this process somehow. There's something that's going to change. Yeah, when Acts 2, I just read in 1st, Corinthians 12, it said we've all been given the Spirit to drink. Well, when was that poured out? And I've read this numerous times on the podcast, but in Peter's sermon, he said,

Jesus went to the right hand of God and has poured out what you now see and hear. And that was a prophecy from Joel. So that had been predicted way back. So it was parable. Yeah, I think the Holy Spirit's role of this is paramount. And as you read even in John 3 here, he says, for the one, this is in verse 34, for the one whom God has since speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

And so if you tie this into the baptism of the Spirit, which is not speaking in tongues, I know people disagree with me on that, but I mean, that is not what it means. Like to be baptized with the Spirit is the baptism of Jesus. Well, the speaking in tongues was a sign. that the spirit had been poured out. I mean, it was a confirmation read Hebrews 2, 1, through 4,

that it confirmed. So just like, because when it said the Spirit is given without limit, I looked up that phrase because I thought, what does that mean? It's like, is that just without limit? But it seems to be without partiality or it's for everybody. It's available for everybody. I mean, go read the Greek.

That was my conclusion after going down the Greek rabbit hole with that. Right. But what I wanted to say was John also was baptizing at Annen near Salem because there was plenty of water. Because some people said, well, this is what had nothing to do with water, which I think is strange. I mean, he's talking about places on a map where there's rivers. and people are constantly coming to be baptized. This was before John was put in prison. An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew or

certain Jews. Yeah, or certain Jews over the matter of ceremonial washing, which I think is interesting because that argument is still alive and well today in a totally different context because now the Holy Spirit has been poured out. Right. And people are being baptized, and then it's how they define baptism, which is a lot of arguments because people are saying that you're washing yourself, you know? Of course, we go to 1st Peter 3.

He kind of explains that, but still it's like as evangelical followers of Jesus, we can't agree on exactly what that means. I've kind of, to go back to Zach's quote, which I think is a good one. I think baptism is a death, thus nullifying any kind of self-righteousness that you would put on the actual ceremony. If it's a death, you're declaring, I'm into Jesus' death. I'm into his burial. I'm dying. I'm now, he's my Lord.

That's the way I view it. But to prove my point, when you go to 1st Corinthians 1, isn't it funny how? Now now we're post-spirit being poured out. Jesus has died, been bearing rays. The first thing he brings up, controversial issue in Corinth, was these dueling dunkers. And I wanted to read this. Now, it's totally different context now.

But same problem. Where's that out, Al? 1 Corinthians 1 in verse 12. Yep. He said, you have a lot of quarrels among you. So what I mean is this One of you says I follow Paul another Paulus Another Cepha still another Christ

Well we all know There's one group in these four that is right That's right Christ is all That's why I brought up the point about John the Baptist The purpose of his baptism Was get people to look for The Messiah is at hand here

He's coming Your repentance is only Meaningful because you're wanting to follow the son of God. So then he says, is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?

All these things are no. And then he's like, I'm thankful that I did not baptize NFU except Christmas and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. And then he's like, oh wait, yes, I also baptized the house of Stephanus. Beyond that, I don't remember

if I baptized anyone out. That's like me. Which shows you that it's not, he's not making a hard and fast rule. he's just saying, I generally don't do this because I don't want you to miss. It was not important. Who is doing the battle? I don't even remember. And if you tried to tell me, say, make a list of people you baptize, I'll give you four or five probably.

I don't remember, nor do I care. It really is. It's all about Christ. That's why we're different from, I think, a lot of groups where we'll share Jesus with people. And we'll baptize them wherever, whenever. Yeah. I mean, I think that got started because we lived out in the middle of nowhere, and we're surrounded by water.

Literally, my dad's house where we were raised is surrounded by water. There's one little trail to go in. That's why it floods all the time. You're like, oh, this person wants to be baptized. We're like, what are we going to drive to town, or we want to walk 20 yards? So I think it's fascinating. But then he says, I love this verse. And I usually, when people come to me and ask me if I baptize them, I say 1st Corinthians

117, they're like, it doesn't ring a bell, you know. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel. Well, what is the gospel? Story of Jesus. The good news of Jesus. Not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied by its power. And so I think that was a thing. even when you get to one of the most controversial, not controversial, one of the most,

what is the word for 1st Corinthians 15 and 29? I guarantee you've never heard this discussed on a podcast because he brings up, in the context reminding them of the gospel and the resurrection, he brings up this point. Now, if there's no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? Have you ever heard anybody tell you what that means? Nope. That? Nope.

But if you just think about it, the reason I purposefully did this, because if you look at where this book started this letter, they were putting a lot of emphasis on who was doing the baptism and this ceremony itself to kind of take off. John 3. And this, the only explanation I've ever heard that I think makes a little sense is when Paul reminded him of the gospel, you remember in 15-1-3-4, that he died according to the scripture, he's buried in his race.

Then he appeared, he was raised, and he appeared to all these people, Peter, then to the 12. After that, he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers at the same time. most of them are still living. So the only reasonable explanation I heard of this is because when you look at the Greek word where it says baptized for the dead, he took that word four,

looked at the Greek meanings, and there was like four different Greek meanings in their culture for that word. Well, one of them was in honor of, and he thought, you know, if you look at that, it makes a little more sense. I'm not saying this is what, because he wasn't for sure either.

He was a Hebrew scholar. But I do think that was interesting, that would make sense because if you're, as a human, putting emphasis on who's doing the baptizing, which we obviously have the story in John 3, they're like, oh, look at here, they're baptizing more people than you. That's our human. We want to interject ourselves into being the more noble uses of God. Right. Look at me. I baptized 14 people yesterday. Are you celebrating their experience with Jesus?

Are you celebrating the fact that you baptized 14 people? Which is a problem. When I was in college, I won't say the name, but there was a certain individual. I'll just leave it at that. And he was baptizing a lot of people because we were on a tear. And one time he baptized a guy, and I thought he was kidding when he did it,

but he took his belt. And he made a notch in his belt. He said, got another one. and I was like, what do you mean? He said, he was going back to the old west. Oh, I was like, he's notching him. I said, well, it's not really about, I kind of made the point you made. And, well, you didn't make the point.

Paul made the point. But, I mean, we're not doing, you're a vessel. You're a servant. And if you're doing it based on, if you're baptizing people or leading them to Christ based on some of your own like sales job on it. I think you've got to ask yourself the question. What are they actually coming to? Well,

which is a problem, right? And so I'll say on my view when I teach First Corinthians of that text, of that phrase you mentioned, Jase, is that I've always thought Paul was speaking of a practice that was going on. He's not necessarily endorsing it. He's just making an argument.

Well, yeah. Well, that was my point. I think. A lot of people have taken that as an argument. Now, oh, well, we got a baptized for the dead. But that's not what he was saying. I think they were having ceremonies. Right.

I mean, this is my opinion. I could be wrong. Where they were. We don't know. They were being baptized in honor of people who had shared Jesus with them or, you know, people who were dead. And that was the thing, which it sounds like a great idea. Let's go have a vigil.

Well, we have a practice now in different groups, this kind of penance for purgatory where you can basically sacrifice for people that have already gone on. Well, there's a, yeah, there's a couple of different religious groups who have more followers than anybody else that that's what they do. do this for and that's where they get it. That's why I wanted to bring it up. I was simply making the point, it's very clear that who is doing the baptizing

is, is, it's a, it's a battleground for people's pride because somehow another, they think that that's meaningful. And this has nothing to do with you. This is a completely, that's why I said it's a death.

It's a surrender. Well, and that becomes the heart of the argument back to our text because the argument was over ceremony at Washington. But look what he says next in verse 26. These people who are arguing this came to John and said, Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan, the one you testified about, well, he is baptizing. Everyone's going to him.

They're like, well, how can what you're doing still be relevant if this guy's, that was their issue? And they were like, what does this mean? Somehow they understood what John was doing and saw it as necessary. But all of a sudden when Jesus' disciples started doing it, it was like, well, that doesn't compute. There can only be one guy, this is the guy. You know what comes forward out of this? That there's always a temptation for human beings, even in the religious world, to want to take the credit.

Yeah. Or the glory for their particular platform, ministry, whatever. And you see its roots. right here before Jesus has even died. They're arguing about, well, wait a minute now. Are you saying through this ceremony that they're now okay? Yeah. You know?

I mean, you don't know what the details of the argument over the ceremony of Washington. Or you're saying, well, look, Jesus, what are you going to do about this? Or, I mean, John, what are you going to do about this? They're baptizing more than you. I thought you were the guy. Yeah. He's like, well, no, I wasn't the guy. I said to believe in the guy.

And now he's fixing to say, hey, that is the guy. Yeah. That's what he basically says. What was that quote? I think it's a political quote, but the one that says we all succeed if we don't care who gets the credit. Yeah. It's a political quote. I've always attributed to Ronald Reagan.

I don't know who said it, but it was, it's amazing what you can accomplish if you don't care who gets the credit for it. I do think there's something about, you know, I mean, sharing conversion stories because that is, There is excitement and passion about that, but I'm not big on numbers. I realize it. There's a book in the Bible called numbers, you know, but people are scrambling. They're like, you know, 17 people raise their hand, you know, and it's in the newsletter and our targets, you know, 10,000 by 100 days or whatever. We're so obsessed and it's almost coming from the wrong place, you know.

Well, even Dad got a little bit of pushback from some of our audience early on, because he would use the term a lot, we converted this or that person, or he would use the words we converted. Yeah, I don't use that phrase. And I don't either. And dad did, but I can tell you this,

no, my dad, as well as we do, he was not taking credit for their conversion. No. That was just a phrase, a terminology that he grew up hearing. Yeah,

you might hear it said like this, like, yeah, I witnessed to him. Yeah. We helped lead him to the Lord. Right, right, right. We're not taking credit.

Bringing up a whole other can of work. Because it's like we get that witness from people who were eyewitnesses. When they were witnessing, they were like, hey, I saw him come up from the death. They're like, well, give your witness. Well, I didn't witness anything. But I read this book, and I guess that qualifies me because I believe the eyewitnesses who saw him. I don't mind the word. I was just clarifying.

It's interesting. I know we're going to run a time of the second. here, but I do think John's reply in verse 27 is just like, oh, it's such a, he just cuts through the entire thing with this response. Well, let's get it. Read is that. Yeah, he, so they're basically set it up. They're arguing over there's like this, this faction going on, this territorial dispute. And to this, John replied, a person can receive only what is given them from heaven. Bumper sticker. Oh, man. There's a lot of bumper sticker statements he makes. He makes, he makes another one in verse 10, he must become greater, I must become less. And I think the final one

you already mentioned where he says he gives the spirit without partiality or without limit. Yeah. And then he, and then John, he goes back to them and says, you yourselves can testify that I said, I am not the Messiah, but am sent ahead of him. And I think that what he's doing here, when it's not, I don't think him, it's definitely what he's doing here. He's basically saying that like we're not constructing this thing guys like we anything that i'm given to you anything that anybody is given out in terms of the kingdom is coming from heaven it's not coming from it's not beginning or you know originating in our own will and in our own mind like god's giving this i love that because it does really put the perspective back in like if i want to take credit

for anything at the end of the day there's a danger by the way if i take credit for what the Lord is doing, then here's two things that happen. If it fails, then that's on me. And if it succeeds, then I'm going to get super arrogant because it's on me. And I think that that's why the Lord's always like, don't, this isn't your credit to have. You can't handle this. This is not you. You can't construct this. And I've tried this in my life. And I think we've all kind of slipped into that mentality of I'm going to take Bull by the horns. And I'm going to make sure this outcome happens the way that I think it should happen. And every time that I'd fall into that trap,

I'm always met with the frustration, typically from whoever else is around me, who has allowed me to put myself in the position of Christ in their life in whatever capacity that may look like. Maybe it's my marriage, maybe it's friendships, maybe as an elder of a church. But when you take on that weight, man, you better be able to perform.

You better be able to deliver. Here's a problem. You can't deliver. You can't deliver only what God. can deliver. Yeah, which I think what John the Baptist did, greater than anything, was he didn't add drama to this argument.

No. He immediately said, no, listen, listen to, you know, my role in this. So he says that. He can only receive what is from heaven. Then he says, you yourselves, this is verse 28, can testify that I said,

I am not the Christ, but am sent ahead of him. The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice, which I love this picture of where he goes to the wedding, which now was where Jesus did his first sign. We would eventually become the bride of Christ.

He's the head of the church. I mean, that's the narrative he goes down to. Our modern picture is the best man, although in their culture, the friend of the groom, the best man did a lot more. I mean, he set everything up for what was going to happen. And that's why he led to saying his joy is now complete. He's like, I am completely just, this is my joy. This is what I was here for.

He must become greater. I must become less. So that ended the argument. That's another bumper digger. Which ends most arguments when someone. becomes less. So then he says the one who comes from above is above all. The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks as one from the earth. Now look, for years I thought this was talking about John the Baptist and Jesus, but the more I studied and I forgot

where I read one of these scholars made a point here that, you know, John the Baptist was technically from heaven also. Remember the argument where when Jesus that he was asked, where did you get this authority? And then he said, well, I got a question, John's baptism. Was it from heaven or from men is what he says there? And they're like, well, we don't know because if we say it's from heaven. We're arguing with God. Why wouldn't we do this? And if we say it's from me, well, all these people think John the Baptist is from heaven. So they said, we don't know it. But Jesus doesn't

answer the question. He says, well, then I'm not going to tell you when I get my I'm sorry. But I think this may be a reference to, you know, either the evil one or because earthly is always deemed, I read that last podcast about wisdom from the earth is unspiritual of the devil. We get the concept worldly from that, a worldly mindset versus a godly mindset. So I remember, NT Wright says this is kind of a synopsis of where we're at in the story where it's like John is saying, this because then he goes on to say the one who comes from heaven is above all he testifies to what he has seen and heard but no one accepts his testimony the man who has accepted it has certified

that god is truthful there's another bumper sticker for the one whom god has sent speaks the words of god for god gives the spirit without limit the father loves the son and has placed everything in his hands which is awesome statement whoever believes in the son as eternal life, but whoever rejects the sun will not see life for God's wrath remains on him. All right. So we're out of time. Well, we can pick that up because I do think we need to discuss that because this comes the words of life, the words of death, which I think is the point. Think about what's earthly.

You're going to die. You're going to die here. But if you have the spirit, if you're born of the spirit, well, now you have something that's from heaven, which is going to be poured out in Acts 2. Well, guess what? Since it came from heaven, you're no longer bound to death. Right. That's why you live. I like it. So we'll pick that up next time. There's a Josie Wales quote in there. You just said the words of life and words of death. We'll have to talk about that next time. Why, it was such a great movie. Oh, An Unashame. Thanks for listening to The Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and

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