Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1122 | The Robertsons’ Message to Texas Flood Victims: We Grieve with You

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

The Robertson family shares their heartbreak over the devastating floods in Texas and the tragic loss of life across the state. With summer camp holding such a special place in their hearts—having shaped their own family in countless ways—the Robertsons are especially heartbroken over the tragedy at Camp Mystic and grieve deeply with the families of the young girls who lost their lives. The guys turn to Scripture to reflect on the fragility of life and the eternal promise of resurrection. Zach explores the role of “red letters” in Scripture and if Jesus’ quoted words are more important or powerful than the rest of the Bible. Plus, has the resurrection already happened? In this episode: Revelation 20, verses 1-6; 1 Corinthians 6, verses 3-9; Acts 28, verse 28; Isaiah 6 — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. We, man, we're praying for folks down in Texas. What a, what a devastating. Zach, it sort of reminded me of what you guys went through last year, just so fast, you know, just devastation. You know, it's just, it's hard. It's been like, it's been hard. I mean, I've been watching it thinking, my gosh.

Gosh, I told Jill, it looks very, very similar in this mystic Christian camp where all the little girls were swept away and died. And the counselor, the director of the camp, I mean, it's this, it is heart-riching. I mean, it really is. I can't quit thinking about it. So our heart, our prayers, I thought some prayers go out to that whole community. Wow. Yeah, we thought about it from a grandparent perspective. You know, our kids went to camp this week, our camp at Chioca,

and both of my kids sent pictures to us and were like, you know, I mean, just double down on gratitude, you know, that you're not going through something like that. But for the folks that are, it's just I know there's got to be a heavy, heavy moment. So it's very, very touching. Yeah, it's not too far from where, you know, Jeff and I lived, I lived down there for about a year, but not that I left here, but, you know,

because it's not too far from Austin. You know, we were on outskirts of Austin, and you go out there and it's dry. It's just hill country. I mean, they said we're in like a hundred-year drought, which is what contributed to what happened. I mean, it rained a couple feet in a short period of time, and then all of a sudden, The river rises 26 feet in 45 minutes. Well, just wrap your head around that. That means that's a wall of water.

Yeah. That's, it's acting like a tsunami. I mean, it's hard to wrap your head around. There's nothing you can do on that particular case. Well, so I'd never been to that part of the country. Well, I've been to San Antonio, but I'd never been out to that area around Austin until I went down for the final four and we stayed a few days. And one day I drove that whole stretch.

I rented a car. I wanted to see all the springs around there because I grew up in North Florida where there's a lot of natural springs. They're absolutely beautiful. And I wanted to check out the Texas scene on that. And so we drove that whole Guadalupe River, New Brunswick, all that area. And it is absolutely stunningly gorgeous. I mean, it is some of the most beautiful part of the country I've ever been to. And it's just the people there were amazing.

The food was great. I mean, just so much culture and life. And, yes, it was, I just, I literally just drove that entire stretch. And, yeah, to see the pictures, my goodness. I mean, it's, it does how, it reinforces in me. just how quick and the brevity of life is just so, so quick. And I saw a clip of the girls on Instagram that they posted on the 27th and all these most adorable little girls.

And they're all doing like these little skits and cheerleading things at the camp. And, you know, you think about our experience at camp. You know, my parents met at Camp Chiaoka. Jase, did you meet Missy at Camp Chioca? No, but that's probably probably read that on the internet, which is part of the problem. Willie and Corey. I've told this story, Zach, many times,

and your mom is involved. But my wife, who, I mean, it really took a while before I was, I wasn't sure she wasn't just an angel from, you know, heaven. She was just such a, just moral, I mean, great person. but even at an early age because Zai, your mom taught, I think it was either the third or fourth grade. She taught my wife. And not only did she teach her, she was the only teacher that ever gave my wife a spanking. There you go.

I don't even know if she got a spanking from her parents, honestly. Mom didn't care. Mom wouldn't make it in today's world, by the way. He would not have made. Like at school. I mean, it's like, I mean, she said something about, somebody griped about, they were picking on this guy, like taking his stuff off the debt. He had all the stuff arranged.

And your mom said, if anyone touches anything on his desk, that's it. I've had enough. You will get a spanking. And Missy's like, she had her little friend group. And they, soon as she said it, they started messaging. some of stuff. She's like, all right, let's go. She would whip you. She would whip her kids. She'd whip your kids. Even if you

like, don't want my kid, if you turn around and your kid's disrespectful, she'd whip you. I mean, she didn't care. Yeah. I mean, she would not make it today. So then, in a weird thing, Al and I, we were going out, my parents had started this little church out in the woods. And I had realized that I was

probably going to be like Paul, and never marry because the pool that we had to work with was slim, small church. And we visited. They were like three families that had people our age, Jay. That was it. Oh, it was difficult. And so we took a road trip because back then when we went to town, it was like an adventure. It was like most people when they go on vacation, well, we just went to town.

but it seemed like a vacation because we didn't get out much. We had one vehicle. And we visited WFR Church, which is where your mom was going. Yep. And Missy, who had just received her spanking, I guess, in third or fourth grade, she was walking down the aisle, and your mom famously looked at me and said, I really believe that's the girl you're going to marry. She's in my class.

I just gave her spanking, but hey, she's good. She's getting out of your mom. Third or fourth grade. That's prophetic. And only did she bring that story up? Because I never paid her no mind. When she said that, I thought, well, she's crazy. And then when I was a senior in high school and started dating her,

she brought that to my attention. And I was like, that's the same girl. And then I kind of remembered it. I thought, she was like, yeah, I tried to tell you. you, but you weren't listening. True story. You can do with it what you will, but she predicted it and it came to. She also predicted Phil.

That's right. That would lead so many people to Christ. We didn't believe in the gift of prophecy in the churches we grew up in, but if we would have, she had it, for sure. But let's face it, it's a thin line between, when you're talking about prophecy like that, it's a thin line between crazy and right on the money. You weren't wrong on her being crazy. Yeah, but it does show you don't underestimate the power of a little discipline

because it literally led her to being a part of that family. She's like, oh, I got a spanking. I need to be a part of that family. Which I find ironic. Oh, yeah, that is weird. And you know what's funny is she loved your mom? I mean, it's like you would think, oh, I mean, that's the only time she got a spanking, but she's like, I deserved it.

I mean, it was just absolute. rejection of authority. And, I mean, she laid it down, and we just said, no, we don't care what you say. She's like, but everything else she ever said, I followed the rules. That's where it started because she always calls herself, Ms. He always calls herself as a rule follower. Yeah. And I was like, it all goes back to third grade. So it is devastating to think about that.

I mean, it made me kind of realize, I mean, I'm not sure where the number is today, but it's going to be somewhere around 100, if not over that substantially. And a lot of kids, and it's sad. But it made me think, you know, we've been studying John 11, but it just made me think, where are you at without the resurrection for those people, you know? Well, it really does, it does give you that idea about hope beyond something. And I was having a discussion with Alex was down here. Her family was down here this last week for the fourth.

And, you know, we were following the news, obviously. And she was showing me different things. And, you know, she made the comment. She said, you think we're in such an advanced time that people would be aware, you know, some weather person that, you know, these things are going to happen. But I told her, I was like, you know, when we were up in North Carolina last year, I mean, you know, we're just seeing family. you're just not really, you know, we weren't watching anything anyway, and you do.

You just look up on that and all of a sudden everything that's like is fragile in a moment because it can just change suddenly. And so, you know, we read about these things that happen in the Bible and the supernatural nature of it. But, you know, there's always been devastation. There's always been death, which leads us to the comment that you made, Jay, is about it's so important for us to have something bigger than just. just this life that's here. It's got to be something more.

And going through difficult times is when you need it the most. And I mean, I think that's the whole purpose. You think about the idea of comfort, which is also a theme that you see in what we've been studying in John, the idea that you can help lift people up when they're really going through a hard time. And so it's very sudden. And it happens very quickly. It's why you have to have community.

You have to have this idea of, you know, us, a kingdom together because you just can't do it by yourself. Yeah. I mean, there was some poem that popped in my head, which I can't remember it, but it went something like young and old, of all ages, death, surrenders all. I mean, it was something with that line in it. And I just remember hearing that years ago thinking, man, that's morbid. But when you think about it, I'm not sure what the death rate on the planet is a day. Probably, I think it's around, I looked it up one time, 150,000 maybe. Well, that's a lot of people, you know.

Yeah. I mean, it's happening every day. It's just, you know, I think you see that in John 11. And the more we study John, and we think, you know, why did Jesus weep and things like that, which we don't know. I mean, all you can do is really speculate other than he was human. I mean, I think that's the most powerful part of that. He became human because that's what happens when we know people and people in our family die, especially kids. There's going to be a lot of tears.

It's the human, we're going to miss them. Why did this happen when you ask all these questions? And you even see that on the news reports. They're trying to like, how can we prevent them? this from happening. It's like you're not going to prevent death when water rises in a place where it doesn't rain 26 feet in 45 minutes. I mean, there's no, it's just a wall of water coming through everything in its path. I mean, it's just going to happen. If you're in that path, there was no rhyme or reason for it other than we're perishable, which I think is why the resurrection means so much.

You know, when you read that passage in 1st, Corinthians 15, our new bodies will be made imperishable. I mean, the real problem is we perish. We're vulnerable. And so it's going to happen. I mean, the death rate is 100% of humans. But in the history of mankind, it's 99.999% because there were some who came back, only did I again, but there was one.

who came back never to die again, which you have now the 99.999%. I just thought of that off the top of my head, but I believe it. You know what I mean? If it wasn't for that point, however decimal points you have to go to get to Jesus, it's just 100%.

And it should be devastating. I think we kind of rationalize it. If you don't know anybody, it's like, Oh, man, that's terrible. But for those people in and around that town, it's just complete devastation. No, it hurts. I mean, I have not been able to stop thinking about it. And even crying about it.

I don't know if it's part of it's because I think it hits home just because of what happened here. So we saw a lot of death up close and personal. The same kind of thing that happened there. It happened literally in the town right next to our church. And members of our church watched people swept away. never to be seen again. But you mentioned that Jesus wept, and I've been thinking about that a lot,

you know, post-storm, you know, post-alina, and then now, you know, this storm. I think that Jesus wept because death, like this type of loss is so tragic, and it's not the way

that it's supposed to be. And I read this in a book recently where the guy Alexander Schmeeman was talking about how Christians process death. And we mentioned this on a previous podcast that we don't, the Bible doesn't say that we don't mourn. It just says that we don't mourn like the rest of the world. But there is a mourning. And there is a night when we cry and we we we're testifying that this is not the way that it should be and this is not the way that it will be.

And I think that's why Jesus wept at the passing of Lazarus, it was because he's saying, this is not the way it should be, and it's not the way that it will be. So it's actually a form of kind of like this sacrament of that when we do this, we're testifying. And I thought, you know, it's interesting that when I think of, because I love apologetics, and I love all the Christian philosophy and theology. Everybody, if you know me, you know that about me. But the most real thing to me that I've ever experienced is, well, two to the two most real things.

Or one is the love of life, like when you have a newborn baby. or you fall in love with the person who I'm married to now, Jill. That's so real and tangible that I can't really, I can't put that in a box or a test tube, or I can't measure it with some kind of philosophy. It's just real. It's kind of where I'm at. And then when you lose somebody,

especially in a circumstance like this, the pain of that loss could perhaps be the most real thing that you will ever experience. And you can't measure it. You can't test it, but it is, it is, it just permeates the, the, the deepest part of your soul. And so I think what these families are going through in the community around there, in those who are watching from afar, I mean, we, you know, I can tell you from this,

for our podcast, we, we mourn with you, and we testify this is not the way that it should be, and we, and we long for the day when this is not the way that it is, but it is, it is painful. Well, you remember Jesus said, in Matthew 5 in the beatitudes when we studied Matthew, you know, blaster those who mourn for they will be comforted. So you're right, Zach. I mean, to share, he shares that human experience with us to then share that with other people. I always think about Second Corinthians, really the comfort, which I did a little bit of study on that word.

It's all throughout there. It's almost like a theme. Yeah. The entire letter of Second Corinthians. because, you know, they were going through some real hardships, and Paul was trying to work through it. But he starts out that first text. And he clearly lays out that when he looked at his own life and the difficulties that he faced, you know, a lot of it he blamed himself because of, you know, where he was before he met Christ on the way to Damascus. But he understood the idea of the human connection that Jesus had for him, you know, but he had to reflect to get there.

So I think moments like this do that. And I've thought a lot about dad this week just, you know, because of us going through the process of mourning him. But it was, as you described, the more natural way. Your patriarch should go ahead. You know, he should lead the way and, you know, be a trailblazer. But when it's your children, your grandchildren, you know, it's such an upsetting thing because it's not the natural way at all. I mean, it's like, man, it just, that's what gnaws, I think, at us the most when it just seems out of order. Well, yeah, I had the same response, Zach.

As soon as I saw it and they were putting these little kids pictures up on the screen, I just got tear it up, you know, and thought about it. Then I've had about three running arguments going with some of my friends. They listen to the podcast, and, of course, I don't have an agenda. I mean, we're studying, and we could be wrong about. things, but, you know, from time to time, boy, there's some things. It just gets me worked up and, oh, man. And so I'm just like, I think what I've been thinking about since this happened and these two or three run an argument.

I mean, these are very smart, smart men in my life. And I'm just like, if you break these, if you look at the Bible and you make it about concepts and for an example it's like let's use grace when you say grace you know what do you think just give me your first impressions of grace forgiven for my sins uniron merit yeah see which proves my point those things are right and that's usually what i would say but you know if you think about what grace is in a bible context it it only mean something because of the one who's acting gracious. You can do the same thing with love. Grace without an actor, and I mean actor as in the God above. One who acts, not one who pretends,

but one who does. Who does? Look, it's just a made-up word that has no meaning. And my point is, we preach the cross and we preach the resurrection as concepts. But, it doesn't matter we should preach the one who was on the cross that that's the difference maker there were there were tons of people that were crucified under a roman cross but the one who died claiming to be the son of man well that there's the game changer on who that is and the resurrection itself because one of the arguments i got into they were like well they're when you say Jesus was the firstborn of the resurrection, there were other people who were raised.

And then it becomes a philosophy about the resurrection has already occurred, which was the argument I was having. And look, not that it didn't have some merit and some good arguments when you try to read Revelation 20, talking about there's a first resurrection, you know, which implies a second and all this. And remember in Matthew 27, when Jesus died, some were raised to life and they were like,

see, see, the resurrection is, it's already happened, happened. But I'm like, no, it was different with Jesus and the implications were different. He was the first born. Yeah. And he conquered death, even where, you know,

we've been studying in John 11, where it's talking about I am the resurrection and the life. Even when he says in 1st Corinthians 15, if there's no resurrection, then your faith his feudal. And then it says, you're still dead in your sins. Well, just think about that. Because some people, they just preach up to the cross. They focus on that. But it's like, if there's

no resurrection, and I mean the one who was raised, who we're preaching, Jesus, as the son of God, he's like, you're still in your sins, which means the cross is not enough in this story. And you say, well, how can you even say that? The cross had to be, well, how do you wrap your head around that verse in first Corinthians 15? If Christ hasn't been raised, you're still in your sense. What does that mean? He said we're to be pitied more than all men if it was only for this life.

It had to be something bigger to your point. So that's my point. It's the person on the cross and who was raised. And then it gets into why he's all the time bringing up the. father because when you think about it Jesus was the first human to completely trust God when it came to morality you know the father as the loving father I mean he did it not only on the cross but he did it in death that's why I think John 10 is so important when he said look no one's taking my life from me I'm giving myself and you're like why would he say that I thought he had to die

I thought this was the whole plan. But he was showing that he's trusting the father. He kept going back to, I'm trusting the father. I'm trusting the father. So what's the guys you're arguing with? You're saying they're proposing that the resurrection has already occurred? This is like a whole preterist kind of. Well, yeah.

And so I'll give you, I think it's interesting. I mean, I'm going to go to something really deep and give you a thumbnail. and y'all remember all our listeners, we've decided to, when we do the book of Revelation, that's our suitcase series of podcasts. We'll have our bags packed when we get through it. That way, if you don't like it or disagree, we're going to be on down the road. But to be fair, we're kind of dripping what we already said. We've been dripping for a long time where we're at on some of this.

to read the tea. Well, and I'll read a verse because, you know, when I go to the book of Revelation, I'll say, well, there's a judgment that is being predicted against Rome for taking on the church. And look, not unlike a judgment predicted to the Temple of Jerusalem and its leadership for not embracing Jesus. That happened in AD 70. and Rome fell whenever it fell, not long after Revelation was written. And so I'm like, it makes sense to me.

Not only is it saying there's a judgment coming on them for that, and it uses a lot of the same language, even used against nations that tried to attack Israel in the Old Testament. So all through the Bible, when people or kingdoms of earth take on the people of God, God gets angry. Yep. And he's like, and he gives this imagery, which they call it apocalyptic, which is not a good word, because all that means is something is revealed, but we call it apocalyptic imagery.

But the word Apocalypseo, the Greek word, I know it's getting deep, is the same word for revelation. So when in Revelation 1, it says the revelation of Jesus Christ. Well, he's going to reveal. deal something that's hidden. Now, he uses all this imagery. So that's what I think it is, but before I read it, because you say, well, what does this have to do with, you know, the book of John, and what does this have to do with what just

happened in Texas, with the flood, and people dying? Well, in Revelation, people were dying because they were followers of Jesus, and they died. You agree? Yeah, persecution. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, in John 11, I want to read this just because, you know, Rome is mentioned here. Where is that?

So after he raises Lazarus from the dead, we haven't covered that yet, but we'll get to it. You're talking about verse 48. Yeah, it says. So there's a conversation that comes up. And I'll read the Revelation 20 and tell you the argument. But it says, let me just read in four. It says, therefore, many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary and had seen what Jesus did put their faith in him, but some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. Then the chief priest and the Pharisees called a meeting.

Boy, there's usually bad things happening. You got to get a meeting. So they said, what are we accomplishing this? Here is this man performing many miraculous signs. if we let him go on like this everyone will believe in him now now watch what this is and then the romans will come and take away both our place and our nation you know what's interesting is that actually happened yeah later this happens in history what what they're predicting true kind of like the tower of babel yeah like what they were worried about actually have they the thing that

were trying to prevent is the thing that actually happened. Exactly. Now, the only reason I'm reading this is because when I say I believe that Revelation was written in the time of Roman rule, and there was a couple of guys who did some bad things to Christians, mainly Nero and Domitian, but they were very far apart. And so just my opinion, I believe it was written in between them. I think the emperor was Vespasian or whatever. And I'm based on Revelation 17, where it gives us a...

image of the city on seven hills and all these heads and horns of power, which is the exact number of emperors in Rome, you kind of figure it out that way. Back to John 11, 49, it says, then one of them named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up. You know nothing at all. You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than the whole nation perish. Well, guess what? That also happened. Speaking of Jesus. And John recognizes that in 51 when he says he did not say this on his own,

but as high priests that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation. And not only for that nation, listen to this, but also for the scattered children of God to bring them together and make them one. So from that day on, they plotted to take his life. The reason I want to read these is because I've had two separate arguments, and I'm going to combine them, and both of them are addressed in that one passage. Because the first argument is with the guy saying the resurrection has already happened, and he goes to Revelation 20.

You're like, now he's way off from what most religious people believe, where they get to the book of Revelation, and they say all this stuff has yet to happen. Right. Well, this guy is like, oh, no, it already happened. And I'm kind of consistent, and I would say I'm in the middle, which is, I believe these things happen to Rome and the people that died as martyrs. And it's a guarantee that they will be raised at the final coming of Jesus. I mean, that is my view. I think this is a template of any earthly power that.

takes on Jesus, which is what we have in John 11. They're like, oh, he's way too powerful. Look, people are following him. We need to kill him. I think this is a template for that happening. So when I read Revelation 20, I just think, since it is using this, we'll use the word apocalyptic language, it's given you a vision. Because Jesus also said, even though you die, yet shall you live.

Yeah. So we're looking at it from our perspective, but from God's perspective, he's given you a vision of these people who died at the hands of Rome in Revelation. They may not have been bodily resurrected, but he's given you a vision that they're going to be raised. They're not dead. Yeah, I think the hard thing is that what people tend to want to do, we're all like this. Let me push. I know it's not that. I'll say, no, I know it's not this end of the spectrum.

So what we do is we go all the way to another end of the spectrum and take the opposite position. And that's why I think when it comes to eschatology or like end times and all that, what all that means, the problem we're always going to get into is either we're going to be all about the already, which is what kind of that, that view is saying. It's already all happened. Everything's already here. Or not yet. Nothing's here.

Nothing's here. We're just waiting on the hell. The world's going to hell in a handbasket. and you feel like you've got to pick one of the two when the we're saying is the biblical teaching is it's both and the kingdom of god is already here but it's not yet fully realized which is the name of my other podcast by the way not yet now but but if you read first kenton 15 i think that that paul makes a pretty explicit argument about and it's i mean i would say be very careful of a full what's called a full preterous view that the resurrection's already happen because Paul says here, you already mentioned the thing about not, if the resurrection hasn't, if there's no resurrection of the dead, we're to be pity more than all men, they may argue and say, well, we're not saying there's no resurrection. We're just saying that it already happened. The problem with that, though, with that position is you also have

verse 20 or is it actually verse 19 that says this in 1st 15th, if in Christ, we have hope in this life only, we are, of all people, most to be pitied. So his point is is that if it's only, he's pointing to another life that's beyond the one that we're experiencing right now. And that's clearly pointing to a future resurrection of the dead. That's not a past thing. That's not a, this is clearly talking about Paul's point is that he's clearly talking about a hope in the not the not yet. And I think, where it goes into this conversation about what's happening right now, even like in Texas and just these kids die. I mean, look, you go through something like that. Like, what are,

there has to be a future hope when that's not a reality. Like, there has to be. And I think that's what Paul's point is, is that there is hope beyond the devastation of what we're experiencing right now. There's hope beyond watching our, you know, my uncle Phil, your dad, my mom, die the most horrible of deaths from this horrible disease dementia. Like there's got to be a world coming where that's not a reality. And there is one. That's the whole promise of the fullness of the kingdom, right? Exactly.

Well, that's what I was going to say. I was going to read this, which it may be, it's hard to read this imagery because I think if you read the book of Revelation with the template I described, it's Jesus revealing. something that's hidden. And it's in the context of earthly powers, in this case, Rome, did all this persecution against the saints. And look, you see this in the first three chapters.

It sets it up. Jesus has the key to death and Hades and this vision. You have this conquering and overcoming that we did in an earlier podcast. You have to refer back to that. In every letter to the church, the same word is used. he who overcomes because they're coming they're going to persecute you you're going to die some of you will die so he gets all the way to revelation 20 and he says then i saw an angel coming down of heaven this is revelation 20 having the key to the abyss and holding in his hand a great chain he sees the dragon

that ancient serpent who is the devil and if you just stop there you realize what what is equated with the evil one all the way back to the beginning sin and death he's realm of the dead murder from the beginning Jesus came to destroy him who had the power of death he uses death to enslave humans accuser yeah accuser yeah but all of a sudden to and this is where when Zach came up with that word that describes the view that I'm having an argument with this predator's view which I hate putting people in categories, but Zach did it, so I'm just using it for illustrative purposes. But they rightly point out

that this next phrase where it says, the devil, he bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the abyss and locked him and sealed it out. So it's a period of time. You see a thousand years, just think period of time. You can't all of a sudden start taking everything literal in the book of Revelation. everybody realizes it's figurative language the problem is until we get to a part that kind of fits our narrative and then we take that literal it's a picture and you say what did he say what does it mean there's a truth in here but if everybody takes everything in here literal well what do we have insanity it's a vision so don't start taking it literal just just walk with me

me on the vision. So you have a thousand years. Let's say it's a period of time, which means it wouldn't be the end of time. Go ahead. Zach. Yeah, someone, I heard, I think it was R.C. Sprole one time they were asking about how, do you interpret Revelation as literal or you interpret the Bible as literal? And he was like, well, yeah, I do. Also, he interpreted as metaphorical, as poetic. And he just went down all the, he's like, yeah, depends on what you're reading, right? Some things are literal. Some things are like clearly poetry. Some things are. Like, clearly poetry. Some are clearly historical. Some things are clearly, I mean,

there's just different things in scripture, and you have to try to look for the context of what it was actually meant to be interpreted as. So, look, if you have Rome going in with the evil one and causing death of people in Christ, this is what's being addressed. So he throws him up, he binds him. In verse four, he saw thrones on which were seated

those who had been given authority to judge, and I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the Word of God. Well, when did that happen? Well, that happened under Rome, and I believe that's what's being addressed here. They had not worshipped the beast or his image and had not received. So these are people who have put their faith in Jesus,

which he's addressing, which he addresses them in detail in seven different churches in the book of Revelation. Now, they came to life and reigned. with Christ a thousand years. Well, it's a period of time. So they say, well, see, the resurrection's already happened. That's where they're getting this. But it's a vision.

Watch. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. And look, I'll just stop right here. How can you make sense out of Ephesians 2,6, where it says, Christ has seated us in our salvation with us in the heavenly realms? Well, did he literally seat us there? Or is it this connection we have with Christ in that we are seated there by him being the first human to go into the presence of God post his bodily resurrection? So from God's perspective and this image that Jesus is revealing, I think that's what he's given.

He's not giving you all the pieces of the puzzle so you can make sense of everything from your perspective. that's where the problem gets off because watch how it continues what it says this is the first resurrection well just don't take it literal just say these are people in christ and whether they die or whether they make it through the roman oppression which they'll die later they're going to be raised they are raised from from god's perspective because he's an eternal god so it's a vision of that and so then people try oh well that means there's a second resurrection. Well, he tells you what the second resurrection, it's not so much in the order of time, because then I'll keep reading, you'll see it. And verse six says, blessed and holy are those who

have part in the first resurrection. You're in Christ. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priest of God. And you're like, well, what is the second death? I mean, this is kind of a mindbender. But don't look at it from your perspective. Just look at the vision, and it answers the questions. When the thousand years are over, which had to mean it was a period of time, this is not the end before that. Then Satan will be released from his prison, will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners, and you have this Gog and magog, and that's a different rabbit trail. But it's not unexplainable together, because that was used as a picture of judgment in the old.

Testament. So there is meaning there. Don't think of something crazy. In number, they are like the sands on the seashore. They marched across the breath of the earth, surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves, but fire came down from heaven and devour. That sounds like what I was depicting is true. When you take on the people of God, oh, he's coming. Judgment is coming for those who oppress, who work in cahoots with evil. Verse 10, and the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur where the beast, which I believe is Rome, and the false prophet, which is the religion of Rome, had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky

fled from its presence. It's just an imagery. And there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And the books were open. Another book was open. Another book was open, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done. Well, we have a second resurrection. Well, who are these people? The opposite of those who are in Jesus. You see how it works? You got imagery of the first resurrection, those in Jesus. It's just an image. You know what the second resurrection is? It's those who are not in Jesus. And watch what happens to them. The dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. Obviously, they're being judged based on their merit because they're not in Jesus.

And guess what? We all know. All sin, all fail. And you're in the wrong camp, the evil. The sea gave up the dead that were in it. And death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them. And each person was judged according to what he's done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is the second death. Well, there's, it explains the imagery. you're either in Christ or you're not. You either are, in this case, persecuting Christians or you're the ones being persecuted. If you're in Christ, you win. Now, even if you die and later, if you're not in Christ, you lose now,

even though you think you win, and you lose later. You're shut out from the presence of God. So there's that argument, which led to the second argument of, well we're waiting on a physical structure to be built in Israel before then they take these passages for all this to then happen and I'm like well we are the temple this argument's going on for days I just I just send

another verse that says God doesn't live in in buildings built by hands 1st Corinthians 6 I mean 1st Corinthians 3 and 6 6 6 3 3 and 6 6 3 and 6 9 says that we're the temple. Him not living in buildings built by hands is all over the place. Acts 17, remember when Stephen preached, God doesn't live in buildings built by hands. You think Ephesians 2, we rise up to become the dwelling place of God, Jew and Gentile, the new temple. So there's that argument. You want to take that on, Zach?

Yeah, well, one thing I read this week, I heard somebody says, say, I've heard this phrase quite a bit in my life, and I never liked it. They'll say something like, they'll talk about the red letters, you know, because in a lot of translations of the Bible, or a lot of different Bibles, they'll have, if Jesus, like Jesus's words will be in red. And, and so they'll say something like, oh, these are the red letters, as if they might more, they have more authority than the black letters, because the red letters, the argument is, well, you know, the red letters, those are Jesus' words. So those are really important.

And then the black letters, well, those weren't necessarily his words. Those were the apostles who wrote them, whatever. But what you got to understand? So this guy had said to me, I'll take the red letters of Jesus over the black letters of Paul any day. And I've heard that phrase before. And I got to thinking about that. I was like, you know, it's interesting that really the red letters of Jesus are not actually, you know, They are what different authors recorded as his words.

So in other words, in Mark, the gospel of Mark, if you see red letters, that's Mark's account of what Jesus said. But the same thing is true in the black letter. So when Peter or Paul write their letters, the inks them black, they're telling you what God said, just like Mark is telling you what Jesus said. So there's no difference between black letters and red letters. It's a horrible hermetic to read the Bible that way. Well, because you're making my point I'm made earlier, because it points to the person. Words are just are.

You're missing the divine inspiration of the scriptures. And so one of the things that I thought about was this passage in 2nd Peter 3. And I actually had an argument one time with a very well-known world leader. I'll just leave it at that. who has a very, very powerful person. And I was talking about the Gospels, and he said, you're an idiot, you don't know what you're talking about. He told me this.

I'm in Washington, D.C. at this meeting, just me and him. And he said, if you knew anything about the Bible, you would know that Peter was inspired and Paul wasn't. And I literally pulled this verse out of 2nd Peter 3, where he says, where Peter talks about Paul, and he says, Paul has a lot of really complex things to say, but people who don't understand that they distort them as they do other scriptures. In other words, what Paul said is scripture.

And I slid my Bible down the table to this gentleman, and I said, I have an issue because what you're telling me is that Peter was inspired, what he wrote was scripture, but what Paul wrote wasn't scripture, but yet if you read clearly here in 2 Peter 3, Peter says everything Paul said was scripture. So I don't know what to do. And he's like, where does it say that? But I went back to look at that. And here's what's interesting.

I'll say all that to say this. At the beginning of that whole setup when Peter's talking about the Apostle Paul's writings, listen to what he's actually, the context of what he's actually saying that people are distorting. This is in 2nd Peter 3, verse 13. It says, but according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. So if you say sum up this whole thing, what you're talking about, the kingdom of God being here,

the temple, all that stuff, it's all about the new heavens and the new earth coming, right, at the end. And that's what Paul was referencing. And he says, therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish and at peace

and count the patience of our Lord as salvation. just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him. What is he talking about? Paul told you about the same stuff, about the new heaven, the new earth, the kingdom, everything that you just mentioned in all those verses. As he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters, what matters? Matters of the kingdom. Matters of the new heaven and the new earth.

Matters of eschatology. There are some things in them which are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist of their own destruction as they do other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the errors of lawless people who lose their own stability, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. So I actually think that we're misinterpreting Paul. Paul wrote all about the Jew and Gentiles coming together into one kingdom.

I mean, that was the point of his entire theology. If you look at the way the book of Acts ends, the book of Acts actually ends with this picture of the new heaven and the new earth language. And then it picks up in Romans chapter one, at least the way my Bible is organized, with Paul saying, I came to bring the Gentiles to the obedience of faith. Let me read this. Acts 28, Acts 2828, which is the second, there's only like a few more verses left. This is what says,

therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles. They'll listen. And he quotes Isaiah in here, and he said, like, nobody's going to hear, nobody's going to listen. It's a quote from Isaiah 6.

Nobody's going to hear it. He said, but it's going to the Gentiles now and they'll hear it. And then you turn to Roman, in my Bible, it's the very next page. Paul says, we have received grace and apostleship. Why? To bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, the Gentiles. So Paul's whole point, Paul's whole mission, Paul's whole purpose was he was the Judaizer.

He was the Jew of all Jews. And that was the guy that God said, I'm going to use you to bring the gospel to the nation. So I don't know how we're missing it, but I think that I think we have to get back to what Paul wrote. Well, we're out of time to further discuss this, but we'll pick it up the next time on Unashame. I guess we'll keep the argument going, Jase, and keep giving our answers. So we'll see you next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast.

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