Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1124 | Miss Kay Spends a Lovely Day With Her Fans & When Should Christians ‘Fight the Power’?

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

Jase shares how a backyard celebration turned into a revival, with over 50 people baptized and many more surrendering to Christ. Miss Kay makes a rare public appearance and lights up the event with hugs, laughter, and heartfelt conversations. The guys debate when civil disobedience becomes necessary, what makes a martyr, and how worship itself can become warfare in a world that resists truth. Exploring arguments made by America’s Founding Fathers when crafting the Declaration of Independence, they’re reminded that real freedom begins at the foot of the cross. In this episode: Joshua 5; Revelation 12, verse 11; Romans 13; Acts 2; Genesis 1, verses 26–27; John 8, verse 36; 2 Corinthians 10, verses 3–5; John 10; Acts 4; Psalm 82— Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. We are here in studio, Jay. It's excited. We had a big event. It's pretty big. It's hard to get the numbers because you saw it. That was your first time there. My first time there. It was a third annual. It was super exciting. People were super excited to be there. There was a huge crowd at church as well at WFR. And I was preaching, which just happened to all line up. Great. I'm glad you were, because we took Miss Kay, and we watched your sermon, which was intriguing. She lit up like a Christmas tree when you gave her a shout-out.

Yeah, I gave her a little shout-out. So she was live in person at the church. No, she was at Jason and Mrs. House. She was live and in-person at my house. They were resting up for the big event. Well, the third time through, I realized. Jay's priest last Sunday, he told me he had. never do that again.

Well, the last year. That was too much, right? Yeah, the last year. It was just too close? Well, you got to remember. Here's what, let me just tell you this. Let me tell you what happened. So what had happened was.

My daughter organized the worship, and she's done that the other two years, too. Which I hated, I missed that. That's right before the fireworks. I know it was fantastic. But I was on mom, dude. It had to get mom home, so. But what happens is, and this,

This has happened three years in a row. So you've got to factor this in. They meet up. I mean, like one guy, the lead singer for their little, for their worship was, he drove in from Nashville, you know. But other friends of theirs who sing and they got a little crew. Because I could hear people playing like the whole time I was there. Was that part of that group or is that somebody different? I don't know that.

Because there was like music going the whole time. They were like little camps all around your property. Could have very well been. But they all stay at my house for days. So, I mean, and it's a bunch of them. So you were dashored over the event. Yeah, what his version is. Well, this is a.

We call that being dasher. So what happened was on Saturday night, there was probably 40 to 50 of them that just came from. everywhere and they just had a worship night together not not because they were practicing for anything just i mean it went on for hours because they like to worship missy and i were in the bedroom just listening you know she's like this is really good i'm a bunch of 20 20 year olds strong voices but multiple ones were staying at my house so like when i got home oh that that was just starting because now they're all fired up because you have five or six of them that

participated in. But then there's others who have just come in because they're all friends. And so they started firing Bible questions to me. Good questions. Like, let's go. And so that went on until about 2 in the morning. And Missy checked out about midnight. She's like, this is great. We're going to win the world for Jesus. But I'm going to have to get some sleep before then. I'll go dream about this. It was kind of funny when she left. But they're filled with energy. And I got up this morning. Look, I was stunned.

They were all up, and here we go again. You know, and I was, I mean, they're really excited. So they're in camp mode because camp mode you don't get any sleep. Some of them were from camp. And, but they just, they were asking the right questions. And so, yeah, it was really exciting. So we have a few leftovers here in our studio audience today from yesterday. Oh, yeah, we have a studio audience.

The forest is here. his brother-in-law, Doug, and Forrest was a guy that he sent me a note and said he had been a terrible accident, and God had spared him, and he wanted to get baptized. He wondered if I'd baptized him, and he was going to come down here when he got well enough. And I was like, well, where do you live? You know, he sent me an email, and he said, Oklahoma City. I was like, well, next weekend, I'm 20 minutes away. And so we met at a building down there, and I baptized him, and now he's up doing great, walking around, so forth. We're welcome. And also we got Doug and Trina, some good friends of mine from Indiana that come to the marriage retreat every year.

I'll say this, Jay, is one of the things that impacted me the most about the event because I talked to a lot of people at WFR Sunday and a lot of people at the event. So I was just meeting people and hearing stories and Zach. I mean, the stories of the people about the impact of the podcast was touching. I mean, it was just story after story after stories. So many different facets of their lives. lives that have been turned around. Of course, a lot of them were, you know, started with dad, obviously, you know, an appreciation of him. But just, I mean, every area you can imagine that people's lives had been changed in different things that they had struggled with and how

we had helped guide them to this closer walk with Christ. It was, it was super humbling to me to hear, story after story after story. It was just. The most of the people there were they people that they all listened to the podcast, would you say? Yes. When I asked, and I mean, like, when I was speaking, and right where Jay spoke, it was kind of toward the end, but almost everybody, but a lot of people had drifted over, and I'd say 90% of the hands went up that they were podcast. Oh, you were talking about when I spoke. I spoke twice. Yeah, I was talking about that last thing. Yeah, we do like every 30 minutes. I think Missy calls it. Ports talk. Gospel on the porch or something like that. So you just share the gospel. What's crazy is people

literally respond because they have a tub of water. Some of these people are, you know, Some of them that show up. They're not in a, affiliated with a church or, you know, and they hear about Jesus and they're, you know, they surrender. And some of them, I mean, they're ready to be baptized. So we had over 50 to happen there. And we had a couple of our Settlebrate Recovery guys that were manning the baptism booth and Martin. I noticed Martin was the. Well, Martin volunteer.

Well, you, your presence and Cy and Kay and Martin, you know, that was really, I was really, happy. Oh, yeah. Because it... Yeah, Mom made an appearance, Zach. She was there and she loved it. She loved it. She told me going home.

She was, I am so glad we did that. I feel great because I was kind of a little bit worried getting around in the heat and everything, but she was fantastic, loved it, loved meeting folks. And she just said, I'm so glad. She said, I would have just been sitting here on this chair watching the FBI or whatever she watches. And she said, that was glad to get out there and meet some folks. Well, last, so when I was giving mine now, about every five,

minutes because they set up the little baptistry over there and they have some chairs around it, you know, for the family. Yeah. But every five minutes, you'd hear that cooos and they're by it while I was talking. Yeah. I was like, I think this is the first time that while we're sharing the Jesus, the backdrop was people being baptized. So that was pretty. Well, when I was leaving, I was mom, they were putting mom in my truck. And so I was heading across the way and talking to the last people along the way. And a guy came up. And I mean, he was so over. come with emotion. He just, he couldn't already speak. And he was crying. And I said,

what can I do for you? And he said, he said, would you baptize me? He said, you know, I've been listening all day about Jesus. I've never been baptized. I said, well, of course I will. That's why we're here. So on the way to the truck, I literally went over and this, this young man and his family was all there with him. And he was just weeping. I mean, you know, that, that moved by Jesus. And so it was just a great reminder about that's what it's all. And what I love about Missy's original idea about the event is it celebrates, obviously, around the 4th of July. We talk about freedom and independence. But when we talk about true freedom, it's dependence on God.

So I just love the idea of how that switches. Well, you gave your sermon from Joshua 3? Joshua 5, yes. And it was kind of similar to my second speech. So what we do is after we finish all the, I guess, festivities. the gospel in the fore, which there's boosts and there's a lot going. Which I didn't even make it to all that. I didn't either because, but there's, it's, think, think like a fair, but it's like all good things.

But you know, a family told me, Jay's, they said, you know, my kids wanted to go to an amusement park for their summer vacation. We were like, amusement park. We're going to do something Jesus centered. And so they came down for that. They found an amusement park. They did. It was an amusement park for Jesus.

That was a lot of things to amuse you there. And so, but then everybody, because they get set up for the fireworks, then we do them with the, I say kids, they're 20 to 22. Can we call them kids, I guess so. They did the work. I mean, it's kind of short. They do about five songs maybe. But they were spectacular.

I mean, Mia has definitely knows how to draw the talent. I mean, this guy leading the song, I mean, he's, I was like, you can sing the song. I mean the phone book, you know. I mean, it was incredible. And so then I give a little, what's that 15 minutes, but I had 12. Missy's like, do not go over 845. Because we have our fireworks guy in the background. He's on cue, ready to go.

Well, right. She's like the timing of this, you know. And so I stopped at 844. And so, and then I, but I talked similarly, of what you talked about. Right. Because I was like, America, I told a story about me finding this coin.

I don't know if I've ever shared this story, but we were in Virginia. They filmed it for Duck Family Treasure, which, by the way, they just released a bunch of new episodes on there if you want to check it out on Fox Nation. But I told the story that I found this coin, and I thought it was a Spanish coin,

which I said in the beginning of my speech, the 12-minute one, I was like, people have been gathering up here in my yard since the 1700s. And I said, I know that because there was a big group sitting under this cypress tree in my view

on the left. I said, I found a 1760 Spanish Real coin under that tree right there. And so when you think about it, that is kind of crazy. Which we became, you know, a nation 1776.

Right. And they started building that house in, you know, 1800. People start digging around a little random when you said that. I'm sure they were thinking, ooh, I may be sitting on some treasure. So what I was saying, though, is, you know, and now, I mean, at that time, America was becoming a nation. Yeah. And so, because we're doing this, you know, it's faith, family, freedom. You know, we talk about our country, and I kind of went, I quoted, I was going to read the Declaration of Independence, but there was so many phones there.

that my phone would not load. So that's why, you know, I should have written that down. So I kind of butchered it. I got, I think, all the words in, but I got them out of order. Because I was thinking off the top of my head, I was like, wasn't planning on quoting the Declaration of Independence. But because you remember our dad used to do that in his speeches. Of course, he would say, you know, that we're life, liberty,

and the pursuit of happiness, you know, all men are created equal. Thomas Jefferson. Yeah, but he's like, and you know what? makes me happy shooting ducks. And so people would chuckle, you know. But his whole point was that we were endowed. It was written as the foundation of our country and this Declaration of Independence was like that we're endowed by our creator.

We're certain. For the alienable rights. And even the paragraph before on why they were breaking out from under British rule, I mean, it says so that they could. go by the laws of nature and then it says and God's nature. Yeah. And so it's all over the place in there. And he had a point, I think.

It's like you should write a movie about that. I should. Yeah. Yeah. National treasure. But I went through that and then I told the story about finding this coin in Virginia. And it was just the quarter of the coin because back then when you need to make change, you cut the coin.

They didn't have other coins to make up for that one. They literally got a knife out and just cut it. So I found a quarter of a coin. And I could only see a one in a six, but I was like, is this $1,600? I thought it was a Spanish real. So I sent the picture to my historical expert, because we were literally filming. And I found it on camera, but I was like, time out. Let me see what this is.

and it turned out to be a 1651. He said, that's a 1651 Massachusetts pine shilling. But I was looking at it and I thought, well, I only see the one in the six. How do you know it's 51? Which I think is a good question. Why are you saying it's a 1651? Are you guessing? And he said, well, it's because this is the first minted coin in America before,

it was America. And the only year that Britain didn't have a king was 1651. So it would technically be legal to mint your coin because we were under British rule. So what a group of people did from Massachusetts is built their own little minting press and they started minting that coin in 1670, from 1670 to like 1680 something.

I can't remember off the top of my head. but they put 1651. So when I said that, I went to the crowd. I said, America. We like hustled the Brits in having our own coins. Not the first time we hustled the Brits. And it took them like 19 years to figure it out. They're like, why do all these coins have 1651 on?

You know, some Britain finally said, hey, knock it off. Which led eventually to, you know, a little skirmish. But, and it led eventually to 1776. It's not the first time, Jay's. We also, we slicked the Brits on the, they were taxing the best cuts of meat. And so the shoulder roast, which is arguably the best roast on a pig,

they call it the Boston butt to this day, but it ain't the butt. It's the shoulder. But we did that to slick the Brits. So take that, Britain. We'll eat our port shoulder. So I did. Yeah, I did this thing about, you know,

America is. has had its problems, and I kind of went through all that. But when you visit other countries, you're like, you feel a lot better about America. Right. You're like, okay. I mean, you just start thinking about when we call 911, somebody shows up. Yeah. In some countries, that's not happening.

I talked about the military and the first responders and firemen and kind of this, this sacrificial love that they show, and that they're not concerned about who's in the burning building. It's just they come in there and get you out no matter who you want. Well, the last podcast we did, Jays, you and I walked next door, and there were, what, 25 SWAT guys from Alabama. And look, I could look in everyone on his face and say, these men are dedicated to their job. Exactly. They were nice. They were good guys, but at the same time, they were business.

I mean, they had just been traded. But you don't have that in a lot of places where they're that dedicated. So I kind of talked about, you know, the role of government where they, you know, they keep us safe. they maintain order. I mean, all the things they do. Some amount of virtue, because it's the law and order. I'm glad you did that. Because, yeah, we want to honor the holiday, too.

Well, we did. And I did. But then I made a transition. I was like, however, the freedom we have in Christ, and I said that, you know, we're a nation within a nation, and we're a holy notion. And I, you know, I told the story about, you know, Jesus, a king of kings.

and then I had some audience participation because I quoted, I took a daring move out as far as speaking, I quoted the John 8, I think it's 36, where it says if the sun sets you free, you shall be free indeed. So then I had the audience finish that. I said, let's try this. And so I'm like, if the sun sets you free, you will be,

and then they all, free indeed. And actually, from my perspective, I thought it was kind of weak. So I made them do it again. But Missy was filming it. She was like, you said it was weak, but listen to this. I was like, oh, that wasn't weak. It was pretty good. They belted it out.

Yeah. And so then I basically went through all the things off top of my head that he freed us from on why we're the most powerful nation within the nation, which is, you know, freedom, liberate. I talked about every day when Trump did the terrorist thing, he says, Liberation Day, because we're saving a few bucks from countries. And I'm like, but in Jesus, every day's liberation day. We live it, yeah. Exactly.

That was kind of the sing-song that I went on, which ultimately the greatest disarming freedom we get to participate is from the evil one, the evil powers, and death itself. Yeah, yeah. Which makes us the most powerful nation on earth. Which has kind of always been my take is, you know, independence from tyranny, but then dependence on the Almighty.

They have to go hand in hand. And the founders even knew that. They realized that those go together if you're going to have a society that works. Yeah. But, you know, we lose focus on that, which is interesting you brought it up. So I was in Joshua 5, 13 to 16, which was the first battle that the Israelites, and I say battle in quotes, because the battle belongs to the Lord, right? I mean, when they went in that first conquest, he wanted them to know,

this is about your capacity and capabilities. I'm giving you this. I'm giving you this city. And so I went through the whole thing in the text, but one of the things that struck me about it, and I wanted to mention this on the podcast, because I mentioned this to you, Jay's off air, was when it first starts in first 13 of chapter 5,

it says when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. So you've got to imagine Joshua is a military man. You remember back in Exodus 17, he was down in the valley floor fighting the battle. So this guy knows military tactics. and he sees this guy standing there with a sword,

and he comes up to him and he says, are you for us or for our enemies? Which is a good question to ask if you run up on a guy with a sword and you're heading into what you think is going to be your first battle. And the man says in verse 14, neither.

Which it just stopped me in my tracks when I first got into this text. I thought, neither. Yeah, you did it really well because I thought, why would he say neither? I mean, I'm sure I read that verse before, but. I mean, it just stopped me in my track.

And then he says, but as commander of the Lord of the Army, I have now come. And so he goes into this whole process where, you know, Joshua kind of has this I am moment, Zach, when he falls flat on his face and, you know, because he realizes the presence of God is there. But it got me, it struck me my point. Well, here's my point I made. I said, God doesn't choose sides. He chooses believers. And then I used the Israel-Iran-U-S situation that we've been dealing with the last month

as an example that, you know, God has people and all, he's working all sides of every situation. It's easy for us to pick a side and say, well, you know, we got to go all in on destroying these people. And then you're like, but wait a minute, what if a bunch of those people were kingdom believers like me? All right. All right. All of a sudden it gives me a different perspective, looking, trying to even glimpse it from God's perspective. Well, you see it in the Exodus story. There's a line. I'm trying to think which chapter it is, but it says a. mixed multitude went up with with uh israel as they exit to egypt so the idea was there was actually

other people yes egyptians in the mix that were exiting with the israelites so you i mean that's a precursor of of this mixed ethnicity and mixed people group uh the nations coming you know together and i think it's important as we think about like the nation of like the kingdom we're a part of ultimately it is a mixed back And it transcends all cultures. And some of the most godly people and heroic people in the Christian faith right now are in countries that would be adversaries to Jesus. They're under persecution.

I think about these Coptic Christians that were murdered. I think it was in Egypt recently. And just the amount of persecution, to be able to be able to, stand for the truth. We say we're unashamed, but can you imagine being in the middle of Iran and feeling the conviction of the Holy Spirit to turn your life into Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and to confess Him as Lord in Iran? That's a whole other level of being unashamed. So we hold these brothers and sisters up. I think we should hold them. It's complicated and I'm not saying it's like an easy... No, and that's the point. Everything has to be looked at. Again, you've got to just

imagine when God says he's in control, that means there's judgment on some people. I mean, this situation that I was preaching about, he had promised that way back in Genesis 15, 400 years earlier. And he says, when the Amarite sin reaches its full measure, judgment is coming. And that's what happened to Jericho. But there was Rahab and her family. And there's always these people of faith that are always there that God remembers. And so there's just, there's so many facets of that. So as believers, I just think we have to always move forward, and Jay's laid it out beautifully, with the idea that as patriotic as we are about our country, you've got to realize that God is working something far bigger than nations. I mean, that's

got to be the key. Yeah, it doesn't mean that you're not, it doesn't mean that you're not patriotic. I mean, there's nothing wrong with, like, even like this whole thing about Christian nationalism, which is a big, like, controversial statement right now. And people will ask me, are you a Christian nationalist? And I'm like, well, it depends on what you mean by that. I mean, that's a broad term, and it has a lot of definitions to it. There's nothing sinful, inherently sinful, about having a national identity. I mean, I think we see that clearly in Scripture.

Even with the introduction of the kingdom of God, I mean, Acts 2 is the best example of this, that in Acts Chapter 2, you have people from all these different nations coming together to worship the triune God. and each one of those people in Acts chapter 2, when God poured out the Holy Spirit, he did not turn them into one homogenous group that each one heard the other speaking in his own native tongue. But he didn't give them all one language. Like he kept the diversity of the language.

It was just the understanding that he brought. So it's not the eradication of diversity and identification as nations. And we even see this in things like, I mean, Jace, and this may have been sinful. I don't know. But Jace wore that LSU gear. He was identifying with his baseball team. That could have been idolatrous. I don't know.

Can I respond in a non, what was that word to use? Homogeneous. Homogenous. Homogenous. I don't even know what that means. Can you define that? Everything is the same. Everybody's exactly the same.

Why didn't you just say that? I don't know. It's the same. Well, the lead singer in Mia's group had an Alabama my crimson tied hat on. And so I never said a word until after it was over. And I said, I appreciate you wearing that hat while you were saying. Well, he kind of grand because he's staying at my house for the last few days.

I hadn't brought it up. He's worn the hat every day. I know he thought I was going to say something. Leave that hat at the door or something like that. Yeah. And I said, I waited to the perfect time to address that, which is now after the event is over. And look, he was looking at me. He's nervous.

He's like. 22-year-old kid, what is he fixing to say? And I said, I'm glad you wore that. I was like, because you're a living example of what it means to be in Jesus. The reason I didn't say a word, I was like, because I've been talking for three days and I'm hearing you singing about you. I know where you're at. I was like, only in Jesus could you wear that on my property as my guest in Jesus. I was like, so.

And you're right. But to your point, Zach, it does, it unifies us in a unique way. There was a young man who I was taking picture with, he and his family, and he had a razor back shirt of. And so they were joking about him wearing razor shirt on. She said, I don't know why he has to wear that down here. Y'all are LSU fans. And I said, no, no, no, we love razorbacks.

They're delicious. And so, you know. But the point is, though, like, there's nothing wrong with having an allegiance to a sports team. Now, I can tell you a scenario where it is wrong. I'm speaking to Alabama. Do you remember the guy who went to, what's the area in Auburn where they have all the oak trees,

the square is called up? Yeah, it's right down there by the stadium. And they throw the toilet paper in the trees. They throw the toilet paper in the trees. And one year, this guy called in, this happened in the last three, four, five years. Yeah, that was about three or four years ago. Alabama fan, raging Alabama fan.

He had identified that this is my team, this is my allegiance. And so he goes in, he poisons all of those trees. And then he calls up the radio station and says, hey, I just poison all your trees, roll tide, you know, and it's like, now that, okay, now that's a, now you've taken the identity too far. You've elevated your allegiance to Alabama football to a place where, yeah, now it's

idolatrous and sinful. But it's not simple in and of itself. And I think that when we think about identity and national identity, I think plays into this as well, as well as all of our, even our identity. identity as a male, I'm a male, you know, uh, uh, jules a female, whatever your, your sexual identity is too. All of that is stacked. Your, your identity is layered. And what happens is, is when you take that layer of, and you move one of those things of your identity, and you move it to a more primary position when it, where it shouldn't be, it can't support the weight of everything above it, so it

collapses in on itself. And when that happens, it, it will keep collapsing all the way down to the bottom until it will completely just eradicate the self. And I think that's what we've seen in our culture in the last several years on this conversation of identity. And to take this back to the Fourth of July and the Founding Fathers, what they understood, and I don't know if it was necessarily they understood this from a spiritual perspective. Some of them did. Some of them didn't. But they certainly understood it from a pragmatic position that the core of human identity has to be Genesis chapter 1 verse 3. 26 and 27, when God said, let us make man and our image, he created them both male and female.

So the core of your identity is actually that you're made in the image of God, which is called the Amago Day, made in God's image. And that was actually the anchor for the American system. The entire system wasn't predicated on America First. It wasn't. Shocker. I mean, it wasn't. The entire American system was predicated on that man's made in the image of God. first. That was Thomas Jefferson's argument in the Declaration of Independence that we hold these truths to be self-evident. In other words, these truths we're about to tell you that anchor the entire thing that we're going to lay out here in this Declaration of Independence, it's obvious. Well, what is it? That man is endowed by their creator with certain unalienable

rights that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So the position that they were saying is you have to start with man being made in God's image and he receives this rights from God. That's the basis of the whole thing. It's not America versus God first. Yeah, you're right. But you skip the power that all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator. But I kind of butchered it. But I think that shows you the brilliance of their thinking because you mentioned Jefferson, Zach. These weren't these weren't religious zealots. In fact, they were fairly irreligious if you just follow their lifestyle. and you watch them. They had slaves. There were a lot of issues when you talk about equality.

Well, yeah, that's why I said they definitely had some problems. But they did. I mean, well, Thomas Jefferson took his Bible, and he crossed out any reference to the Holy Spirit because he was a rationalist. Right. And so he studied under John Locke and everything was this Lockean, like way of seeing the world, very legal. So he just, I don't like that. He just takes it out. So, I mean, clearly. Well, that's why I'm saying. The point is, you know, because the argument now, almost 300 years later, is that. Oh, wow, you religious people. And Jesus Bible thumpers. I mean, you know, our country was never designed.

But no, it was. And it was done by men who weren't zealous. I mean, they would call us zealous. And I own that. I mean, I'm saying. Well, but they had a lot of error in their thinking. That's what I'm saying. But they got it right that they understood.

They got that part right. They got that part right. That there was a creator. Exactly. And he made us inequality. And then we would get there. And we did. We have.

Well, what's funny is, is that, so they, they write this, and they had this philosophy. Now, did they embody it perfectly? No, absolutely not, because they had slaves. But what's interesting about the conversation is, is that when President Lincoln had the debates with Douglas on, should we abolish slavery or not, the argument that he was making was, okay, hold on, let's look at our own founding documents. Let's look at the Declaration of Independence, and let's read this argument, and let's play

this out. all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Everybody agree with that. And Douglas and everybody,

yep, everybody agrees with that. So then Lincoln's question, the next question was, is the African American a man? Is a human? And that literally was the argument that led to the abolishment of slavery. Then you said, well, okay,

we abolished slavery, but man, we still had racism just, I mean, permeating the South and until Jim Crow and all that. Well, then when Martin Luther King Jr. wrote a letter in a Birmingham jail to mobilize white pastors to get involved in the civil rights movement, guess what his argument was? All men are created equal.

All men are created equal. He went right back to the same argument. He appealed to Thomas Aquinas. He appealed to go read the letter. Well, then you think, well, then there's the Memphis sanitation worker strike that happened in Memphis. And you guess what the sign they held up? when they were protesting for for civil rights.

Black men and women holding signs. And the question is, am I not a man? Yeah. Yeah. So the argument like continues on and says, yes, our, and our employment of the argument is flawed because we're sinful, but the argument stands. Yes.

And that's why I think the argument stands today. And we, when we're pushing like policies and politics, like we, I think it's dangerous to take an America first position. I think you have to take a God first position. And I know that's a little bit of a nuance and that may rub you the wrong way, but it's true. Like, no, God first, man-made in God's image,

and now let's talk about how best to enable human rights from there. Yeah, I kind of went down that road. Because I quoted Romans 13. It's in the book, you know, that God set up governments, and you have to pay your taxes. I mean, Romans 13 is pretty clear. Yeah.

And even when Jesus said, remember when he said, give to Caesar, what is Caesar's, but give to God, what is God's? You're like, well, well, which is it? And so I went to when Jesus was before Pilate, and he said, my kingdom, he asked him if he was a king,

and he was like, my kingdom is not from this world, which I said, but it implied it's for this world. I mean, that's why he came. And talking about living the image of God. But then he makes an interesting statement. He said, and you wouldn't have any power unless it was given to you from above,

which supports this idea of God set up governments. Because just imagine, when I listed those things about security and prosperity, what the governments are supposed to do, if you're in a country where you don't have that, well, good luck. What does it turn into? chaos. I mean, it's really dependent on most of the people doing the right thing.

If everybody, if all the Americans decided, you know what, we're just not going to go by the rule of law and surrender to the government. Well, this place would be like some other countries. I mean, see, you realize why God did that, but you're saying the anarchy would, you're saying anarchy would come. Oh, exactly. And what I'm saying is, so we have a responsibility, because God set it up. However, I think the give to Caesar what is Caesar and give to God what is God's, is also it brings resistance. And we do resist. There's some laws that will be approved by government that are immoral. It happens all the time. I could go find them. Well, as a Christian, and where I'm headed with this is, is you remember in Acts 4 when the government officials came to them and said,

hey, that's it. They basically tried to shut down, you know, the disciples and them sharing Jesus because it was causing so much chaos with people who didn't agree. But their response was, no, we can't help but speak about it. You do whatever you can read Acts 4. You'll see what I'm saying. But they were like, no, we're resisting on that. We can't help but share Jesus.

and you got to remember that kind of mentality led to all of them dying from the hands of some government official. They were martyred because they wouldn't shut up. And so I think it's a resistance, though, that's not like the world. We don't go out there and have riots and burn cars and all that or, you know, try to threaten people that we're going to kill them because that's what earthly powers do. Ours is more like Jesus where you better be willing to suffer and endure the persecution and may be jailed, which Paul wrote verses from prison while he's chained to a wall. Was he shrinking back from who he was in Jesus? No, he just wasn't going to do it.

And that's why I wanted to say all that to say, well, when you were saying that about Iran, and give the current administration credit, they've said very carefully, because they're not doing anything by accident, we don't have a problem with the Iran people. We have a problem with this regime that could perhaps destroy the whole planet. Which is why they bombed the bomb size.

But I appreciate them saying that because you know my experience. I mean, I went to Athens, Greece, spent a week with 40 converted Iranians, they call themselves Persians, who were refugees at some point, escaping through Turkey. And here's our old buddy Larry Bowles. He's sitting there first taking care of their human needs.

And these people have nothing. They've left these oppressive countries. Well, then they all come to Jesus. But what he was shocked that happened was then, the more they grew as disciples of Jesus, they all wanted to go back and share Jesus. Because that experience in Jesus in the verse that I had the Christian, crowd quote, which is what I was thinking. If the sun sets you free, you're free indeed.

Well, all these people had removed the fear of death from their life because now they're in Jesus. And they're reading the Bible and they're like, well, if we die, we're good. Well, let's go back because I got an aunt. I got a cousin. I'm going to go back. And so he's training them to do that. And I got to speak to all these underground churches in Iran through an interpreter. and I got to know these people, and what I was shocked about, I was telling the young people about this because this came up. Well, you know, in Jesus, we had all kind of things. They were just people.

It didn't matter. We were talking the same language. We were laughing. We were eating meals together. And when I say, I spent a week with them all day, every day, for a week. And it was amazing what we had in common because we were all following the same King Jesus. And to me... You sense the Holy Spirit.

Exactly. You sense the spirit in those people. And that, like, I know what this is, and I can't quite put an identification on it. But when you were talking about the way the kingdom counteracts the oppressive parts of government, because there is a place for resisting, for sure. I was thinking about this book. I don't know if you have heard of it. But resisting the right way.

No, no, no. Yeah, that's what I was going to talk about. There's a book called Dominion. by Tom, I think it's Tom Holland. I got down on my bookshelf back here behind me. But it's a, I don't even know the guy's a Christian, but he wrote this book essentially like, here's the world we live in.

And I want you to see what Christianity, how Christianity has impacted the world. And when you read the book, it's like the entire like hospital system and health care system and all these things that like we just take for granted now, that are quote unquote secular institutions, they all started, I mean, all of them started with Christianity.

And so you think about, man, sometimes the best defense is a good offense. And I think that verse where Jesus says that based on this confession, or you're, you know, I'll build this church or on this rock, I'll build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it, I think that what happens with the kingdom of God is that, it's so progressive, and I don't mean like liberal, but I mean progressive. Like it's moving forward and picking up steam and it's accomplishing things. And it's so powerful.

Human flourishing that happens in the kingdom is so powerful that it steam rolls tyranny. It just does. And that's what happened whenever the American system was set up, when our country was set up. I mean, really, it was what happened in this country that completely. completely collapsed and destroyed the tyranny of the monarch. There's no more monarchs in the world, really. I mean, think about it. I mean, the king of, who's the king of England right now?

It's not, I mean, it's like a figurehead. It's not like they have no real power. The problem is if all people are flawed, so if you have a king, the only way this is going to work is if you had a king like Jesus, it had zero flaws who's come from God. and I think he proved that, which is why he's the king of kings. So I want to bring up one more point

before we go on this podcast, and it was one I had never seen before in this text that I was in. But it was this setup for the march around Jericho, and it starts out with the armed men. You know, it says the armed men will go first, which we would think, okay, that makes sense. Like, we're going to show a force.

The cities under seas are all locked up, So the armed men go first. And so I'm just imagining Joshua listening as a military guy. Yep, I got that. You're going to march around six days. Okay, yeah, that's siops. We're going to put the fear into them. But then the third component is what we've been talking about here on this podcast today.

He had priests go with people playing trumpets, which I framed as worship. Because that's what people, you know, when you get priests together playing trumpets, you got worship. Yeah. And the Ark of the Covenant was there. And I made the point that, you know, Indiana Jones discovered in the movie, Steven Spielberg decided that the Ark of the Covenant was sand that melted people's faces out. You know, that's what happened. Well, I assume when I watched that movie, when you said that,

I assumed that he was kind of saying, well, there was a presence of God. No, I got it. I got it. But I was saying that I don't think that's what the Ark literally did was that. It was just a momento box to remind the Israelites that, I'm God, I'm still here. So these march around the city, and so I called it, Zach, weaponized worship.

I like that. The idea was, and it's like we don't fight like the world does because we worship God. And so I read the text later, Jay's thought of the text when I was making that point, and I read it later in the sermon, 2 Corinthians 103. We live in the world,

but we don't wage wars the world does. The weapons we fight with are not weapons of the world. on the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments, every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. We take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. I mean, at the heart level, we make a difference than an impact. So I think God was trying to teach his people that if you'll trust in me and you'll follow my lead and you'll worship me and you'll believe me and you'll listen to me, this will go well. When you don't, it won't.

Obviously, it didn't go well. I mean, because this was the first battle. It should have been the precedent for the way they fought every battle, but it didn't because they're human beings. And by the time we get into the kings, it's a free-for-all. Yeah. You know, it's idolatry. It's all this terrible stuff.

But the Bible's filled with these kind of things, you know, even the prediction of the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem, because it wasn't just their worship. It was their whole politics, culture. And you see that coming out. even where we're at in John 10, where they're trying to stone Jesus right then. And even he's fixed to raise Lazarus in the next chapter. And guess what the Jewish leader's response was?

We got to kill this guy. No, wait a minute. Time out. He just raised a guy from the dead, and you're responding. This man must be killed. You know what I found fascinating when you read that? Not only do they want to kill Jesus, they want to kill Lazarus again.

Again. They're like, we need to kill him because, I mean, the longer he keeps walking around, we're losing all our membership. He's proving the point. Yep. But what I wanted to say is God intervened, kind of like he did with what you called an E.T., this guy standing with the sword, which, Al, you didn't point this out, but I think this is right. This is the kind of a mirror image of the burning bush. I think you brought that up. Yeah, because it's that moment where he says, take off your sandals. Well, he does the same thing here with this guy standing.

Yeah. You know, I don't know how we're going to describe this. We left off our last podcast talking about the divine counsel in Psalm 82, which opened up a can of worms. But it's definitely there's something to that. But God will judge. Because this guy was the commander of the army of the Lord. That's the way he described himself. And they're like, oh, there's an army of the Lord?

And he has a sword. He looks like a man. Who is this guy? Yeah. And so when you think about the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple, and you think about the whole book of Revelation, which now Rome is the backdrop. Yeah.

You know, think Revelation 17, where it's like this beast that came out of the seven-hilled city, which Rome was known as the city on seven hills. And, but even then, it's like he wasn't saying that I'm going to protect you, You don't keep you from death. Every time he brought that up, he was like, oh, even though you die, yet shall you live? Same thoughts as Jesus. Yeah.

Which comes to your point. I'm making the point that he eventually judged Rome. What are they doing now? The kingdom is still rolling on. I saw it. What was Rome doing? Making pizzas and... Shotguns.

That's what Dad said. Yeah, I mean, it's like that's what happens when he said this kingdom that Jesus is going to establish will crush all other kings. When you take death as being a problem out of the equation, you become the most indestructible force on the planet. Even if you die, because it's like, I won't, trust me, I'll be right back, which is, I think, what Jesus was referring to. Which is why I ended my sermon was Revelation 1211.

They overcame by the blood of the lamb, word of their testimony. They did not love this life so much as to shrink from death. Then I added Jesus in 14-4, and they will follow. the lamb wherever he goes. And I'm glad you brought that up, because look, where the lamb went is where people are uncomfortable about going. Where did the lamb go? He went to a cross.

Exactly. And look, these martyrs that are mentioned in Revelation, which is filled with all these stories about them being martyred in the name of Jesus at the hands of Rome. But eventually, who won? The whole book's about people in Christ winning. Victory. Even in death, you're winning. And I think that it's not, because I struggle with thinking this three,

it's not pacifism. It's not that the kingdom just sits back and we're like, we're not going to engage in anything in the public realm. That's not the answer. No, no, we're not. Because you think about it, we're actually called to forms of civil disobedience. For example, if you knew that you were in a country

that they were enslaving people, you may hide people in your basement and lie about it. And be like, are they in your basement? No, they're not here. Well, you're telling a lie. But that's a justifiable lie. Well, Rahab, you brought that up. I mean, yeah.

I mean, Rehab is a prime example. So that's a great example, in God's kingdom, we are called, in my opinion, to systematically undermine the kingdoms of darkness. I think we're called to do that. No, there's no doubt. And I would add, speak truth to powers. Yeah, I think where I think it gets off is that when your primary motivation is I'm doing this, as a Christian, at least, I'm doing this primarily for my earthly kingdom that I'm aligned with.

When your primary motivation, no, no, no, my primary motivation and the undermining of whatever I'm doing is, my primary motivation is for the kingdom of God. And I think that's the difference. And I think that what's going to happen is as we embody that as Christians, you're going to have other people who will latch on to what we're doing in a secular way. Like I think Thomas Jefferson personally, I think he latched on to the church's teaching on the Amago Day. And I don't think that he really had the same motivation, but it didn't matter. No. That's great.

Come on. You know, so our goal is, yeah, if you want to come here and partner on what Calvin called Common Grace, great. You can partner on that with us. It is common grace, though. It is God's grace, and it's common for all men. And so the world's going to take that, and they're going to try to use it for their own event. And I think that's fine, but the church

always has to keep that. You've got to put our stake in there and say, but we're not moving. This is why we're doing it. You can't move from that. We're out of time, but I'll say this during this celebratory season, we always celebrated our citizenship to the U.S. of A. That's great. But remember, we're dual citizens because we're also citizens of the heavenly

realm and the earthly realm in the kingdom of God. So let's keep it, let's keep it there in the first and foremost. So there you go. I had a lot more to say more out of time. We'll see you next time. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little

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