Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1131 | Phil’s Secret to Getting Away with Blunt Truth & Transformation Leads to Resurrection

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

Phil’s blunt honesty takes center stage as Jase, Al, and Zach share classic “Phil-isms” that somehow never offended people because they were rooted in truth. The guys drop insider info about the re-release of The Blind with new special content, and how the film highlights Phil’s simple gospel message. A powerful baptism story leads into a deep dive on how atonement and resurrection work together: Jesus’ death cleanses sin, but His resurrection brings true freedom and new life. In this episode: John 11, verse 49; Mark 10, verses 17–21; 1 Corinthians 15; Isaiah 6; Zechariah 6, verse 12; Leviticus 16, verses 15–16; Luke 18, verse 3; Hebrews 2, verse 17; Romans 3, verses 24–25; Hebrews 9, verse 5; 1 John 2, verse 2; 1 John 4, verse 10 — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? What did you eat, Al? Are you, are you off the wagon? Do you fall off the wagon, son? No, no, no, no, no. Side of eggs and a side of sausage. Okay. Well, you know our uncle's actually about to hit a milestone. We're going to talk about sub 200. Ooh. I was 238 at the fatest. You realize if you keep this up, you're no longer going to look like J.D. Bants, and that's a problem for you. I don't think so. Hold on to the JD Man's down.

I look like Justin Bieber, if I keep losing weight. I think we're recording now. I looked at pictures now. I think we're actually rolling. Yeah. And I've been sub 200 for a minute, Zad. So just, I'm just. Well, but I'm a bigger guy.

I'm taller. I'm six foot one. That's true. What are you? About 5'10? 5.10. So I'm looking at, so we're moving into a new church building. Somebody gave us a church building again.

We got two church buildings now. God's been good. We got a lot of buildings. We upgraded. to a bigger building, holds a few more people. Jill had the idea that she was going to print all of the pictures of the baptisms of people that have been baptized in the church over the last several years and make like a collage on a wall. And I was shocked to see how fat I was.

I mean, I was like, I was like, golly, I really have just kind of been chipping away at this thing. But I've lost 38 pounds. The one thing is for sure is that, because I get a lot of comments from, people that watch the podcast on TV. Cameras do not lie. They tell the truth. So no matter how you're seeing yourself in the mirror, the camera tells all. The camera doesn't lie.

Jay said to care. He checks out. We talk about health. He's just like he's out. He doesn't care. He eats sweet potato pie for breakfast and he's still 170 pounds. He's got the high burner. He's got the high burner.

I haven't weighed in years, but. I'm figuring. that someone will let me know once I need to start. Staying away from entire bags of Zapp's potato chips, of which I destroyed last night. You could be skinny. You could be skinny fat, though. You know what that is, don't you?

You've heard that phrase, right? Is that like skinny popcorn? You know, Zach? I've never heard that. I've never heard that. It's like you're, you look skinny, but like you're actually fat. Like everything is fat. But you're small, but it's like you're not, you're not,

healthy. That's an oxymoron. You can't be skinny fat. Yeah, well, I believe there's a verse in the Bible that says man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart. So I'm just going to let that. So Jay, since you, since on the last podcast, I think it was the last podcast, you brought in a new segment.

I had not thought about this, but this is this the way it's going to happen? It's just going to pop into our heads for the what would Phil say, if he were here and taking part in this discussion. And when you said it a minute ago, it made me think about it because dad was always, dad was the kind of person. He kind of, when he wanted to give you a challenge, it was kind of directional. He didn't really, he didn't really take you on head. He didn't want to hurt your feelings, but he didn't really care.

But then at the same time, he wanted to say something. So he would say, I mean, Al, you know, when you can't fit through the door. Yeah. It may be time to take a look at it. And I was like, well, I walked, I walked in here today, Dad. He was like, yeah, but I mean, there'll come a time. You can't fit through the door. And I was like, okay, I hear it.

I'm going to work on it. So that's another what would Phil say. If he were here, that's what I've been saying. Yeah, Phil wasn't very, what's the word I'm looking for? He wasn't very sensitive to the weight issue. He would, I mean, he would kind of tell you. Well, that all stems from just saying what you're thinking. Yeah.

So which people would call that insensitive, and maybe they have a point. But there was a bluntness to feel that he got away with because when you think about what he just said, and if your feelings were hurt, as the more you thought about it, you would say, you know, he's got a point. Yeah. So it's like at the end of the day, that's why I feel like people weren't offended or offended the right way, because, you know, he'd be. right. Ow, it's weird. When I walked in, I greeted young Maddie with one of Phil's sayings. But she didn't realize that was one of Phil's saying.

So I said, I think I introduced a thought when you kind of go back and think about things he would say. But when I saw Maddie, I said, how do you feel right now? Oh, that's it. Yeah. And Maddie was like, oh, I feel great. You know, how do you feel? I was like, no, you don't realize I was, I was playing out the segment.

That was a preview. Phil, you used to say that. How do you feel right now? He has asked me and other people in my presence hundreds of times. He would just look up and he would say, Jase, and I'd say, yep, he'd say, how do you feel right now? I don't really have a point of bringing that up. It was just something he did. And trust me, Jase, he didn't really have a point either.

but he would take whatever you said to lead into the next conversation. Well, it's actually a brilliant technique that I used it. I actually did that Sunday. We had a little get-together at the house with the church, and one of the young ladies of the church, names Ruth, not my daughter, Ruth, another Ruth. I said, and she walked out, said, hey, Ruth, I said, how do you feel right now?

I actually asked her that, learned that from Phil. She's like, what, what? And, like, she felt like the need, like she said, I feel like compelled to confess something right now. I was like, but I mean, it kind of makes you feel a little bit. You know, and I would do this one. What about it? And I'd be like, what about what?

Like what? And it was confusing. It's a little jarring the way you ask the question. But side's always backwards because if he says, yeah, yeah, yeah, he means no. But if he says, yeah, yeah, no, then that means yes. I do have some news, though. Uh-oh. I got a call from Fathom events, which is who we did the blind release through this past.

week and they said they want to bring the blind back to the big screen for like just like a five-day run and at the end of August kind of like a one year anniversary or two years or whatever the time I think they just were like man like there's a lot of buzz around Phil's life right now and we think this would be a good time to do like a five-day release they said we need one piece of special content and so I've I've asked my cousin Jace to engage in this because I'll go ahead and cut to the Jay's most things you ask me, I say no. But in this case, I actually said yes. I love that, Jay's.

Yeah, I thought it was a good idea. I thought it was a good idea. Well, it was like the, and Jay's contributed a thought to the end of the movie. It was I heard later, it was his idea to Zach, that the end of it when it fades to black and then you hear Phil's modern voice, which gave me chills in the theater to hear it because I didn't know it was coming. and then for him to be able in real time, and especially now that he's crossed over, for him in real time to be able to speak into his life and what it meant was very powerful.

It was, I'm glad you said that, Al, because that was, you know, the biggest problem with people who produce things. Ooh, I just went ahead and said that. You realized that when I just said that, everybody is a part of the production you're now listening to except one person. That would be me.

So everybody got nervous that you're listening to and the person. That's how he disassociates himself, guys. But go ahead. Yeah. No, well, that's true. Is that not true?

I'm not, I just show up. But what I was going to say is, so Zach, you know, he worked for, I don't know how long on the movie The Blind, but a lot.

It was a dominant time of his life. Like a couple of years. Yeah, he's pouring into this. So he asked me to, help promote it. And so we had a really awkward conversation. And I said, was that? I know you're a young producer in the producer world, but for me to promote this, I'm going to have to watch it. Which I assumed you would watch it. Well, but you didn't say that. So that was my first response. So I watched it, which was very difficult because it brought back a lot of memories of my childhood

that I had like tucked away in a place that I didn't really want to go. So it was very emotional watching it. And I thought they did a good job. But my response to him, because it's very difficult to tell someone who just put two years in his life, you know, what I really think. But I just thought, well, I'm going to have to do this. I said, I think it's very well done. I said, the problem is Phil's not going to like it.

And he was like, what? What are you talking about? He's not going to like it. I mean, I don't know if you remember that conversation. Oh, yeah. But I said, he's going to want, this is going to be, you know, part of his legacy. And the bottom line is his legacy, what he most talked about of all the phrases. And we're doing this little segment.

But the thing that was like a broken record in a good way was the simple message of Jesus. I said, he's going to want that in there. So you need to figure out how to do that. And I think I said, I recommend that after the movie's over, you just let him sum up. Why, what you just saw, why he changed, and let him give the simple message that he's given 10,000s of times. And so, which I figured I'm talking to a guy producing something, it's not going to happen. But I think he did it. And I think that made him happy.

Well, it was kind of like a divinely inspired moment because the phrase you said was, you said everything you just said, but then you said, here's what I'm saying. You don't have the phrase, the death, the burial, and the resurrection of Jesus. You got to have, that that was the thing. And you said, he's going to want that in there. And so you had mentioned that, which I was kind of like when you said it, kind of like at first like man you can't just go like change things like that you know what that was the part of consternation i knew you had you're like no it's done i was like it's not done

in my opinion i'm giving you my opinion i said i think there needs to be something in there where he's like okay you just saw it or whatever there needs to be a speech that he's you would give on why specifically what he's driven about, which I think it goes into where we're at, even in John 11. When you think about Jesus, every time, this is a very profound, I know we went from just cheery what's going on. Let's talk about the blind to I'm given a very profound thought. Jesus himself, when he predicted his death, always added the resurrection. I mean, hundreds of times, maybe not hundreds, it's a ton.

When he brought it up, yeah, at least dozens, he would say that the son of man would be given over to the hands of men. He would be buried. He would be raised. He would come back to life. And so I think there's a reason for that. And so I think when you boil it all down, and it's not because, you know, the Corinthians had to be reminded of that. That's where usually where people go, but I go to Jesus himself. He kept saying that over and over.

Well, there's got to be a reason, and I would like to explore that in a future conversation. Well, it's funny, Jay, since we started with the What Would Phil Say segment, one of the things he used to say a lot, because we get a lot of books sent to us and people write a lot of books. And so there was always a lot of books around all of us, but especially Dad. And Dad would always say, you know, somebody, if you send me a book, and I pick you. it up and I read the first chapter to and nowhere the death barrel and resurrection of Jesus is mentioned, then that's it. It's not a book for me. And that's one of the things he just always said. It's got to start, you know, an end with who Jesus is. I do want to take this moment in this

conversation to give a shout out to our good friends that I am second because that piece, that bite that's at the end, we've done a lot of stuff on the I am second website. And I know we get a wide-ranging new people, a lot of new people of their audience. If you've never checked out, I am second, it's a fantastic website of testimony of people's lives. And it's a lot of athletes and people you recognize, a lot of musicians and our family's on there too. And they're the ones that Zach, you partner with those guys to do that last bite. And it's so powerful. Let's have a great way of interviewing people. Well, that was the crazy thing about it. When Jay said that to me, that same day,

like that morning, they were in studio. And something happened where you connected me with Angie, who runs Simon Second. Well, they were doing a video for Brian Rucker, who's been on our podcast already. And so we've just piggybacked on that, and you flew that out to get it done. It was the perfect thing.

And so it's kind of, to me, it's kind of full circle that Jason's going to do. this second piece of content that will be special for this release because actually I didn't think about that when I even asked him to do it, but that started with him saying to me, you got to put this in there. And so, yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I think that's going to be pretty powerful. And even the re-release is going to be a time. I think you can take people that don't know Jesus because that film was, I was really, not just the film of this, podcast. I've been, I just continue to be shocked by the amount of people that will come in and listen

to our content based on life of fill, based on the funny stories, but what they all run into is, is they all run into Jesus in the end. And there has, it's literally, there's, we've gotten thousands and thousands of emails on the movie and the podcast of just people really finding a relationship with Christ that's centered on that very simple. message of the death of Jesus for our sins, his burial, and his resurrection from the dead. Yeah, and we still, you know, in honor of dad, we still carry on our unashamed Bible study. Jersey Joe leads it every Sunday at WFR or so, because a lot of you come through and you kind of want to experience White Sparrow because, you know, you hear us talk about all the time.

And sometimes I'm there, sometimes I'm not, sometimes Jay's there, sometimes he's not. But it's pretty constant that we're going to have some presence there of someone sharing Jesus. So you'll always know what's the most important thing is, and there are people, get baptized regularly. There's a young man, I'm assuming he's young, that has been listening up in Joplin, Missouri, and he's coming through next weekend. And I just happened to be there in town. And he wanted me to baptize him. I said, absolutely, you hit it just right. It's a divine appointment. We'll be in my swimming pool next weekend. So it's just, you know, we get it. We understand it. And we love it. We love being a part of it. Because as Zach said, it's nothing

we've done. It's always been what God has worked through us. And so we take no glory. or no credit for anything that happens. Any of you that has your lives have been changed by the podcast, it ain't the three of us or even that. It's what Christ has done. I think the draw is the spirit of the Lord. And I had a similar situation. The last time I saw y'all, which was a couple days ago,

we did a couple podcasts. Because we've done six podcasts. Well, after today, we will have done six this week. Yeah, it's a lot. And I haven't had as much study time since the last time I saw y'all because I've been doing Jesus stuff, and which are randomly occurring. And one of those things was a young man was driving through with his mom.

And I say young man, he was 18. But look, 30. Big guy, you know, tough looking guy. And no father figure in his life. and the church building, the people who you worked with Al, they sent me and you at Texas. You were in Alabama,

but I was like, well, I'm here, I'm driving through, so I went up there and talked to him. And my first thing is usually, look, Christ didn't send me to baptize, but you preach the gospel.

And this guy didn't have a lot to say, and I literally asked the same question we started with. I said, well, how do you feel? Because I was asking him, I was trying to see where we're at, Why are you here? What's going on? What's your story?

You know, that was another fill line. What's your story? Everybody's got a story. He just wasn't saying anything. And some of the people at the church were talking to the mom, and they kind of gave us, we were sitting on the front row in the big auditorium. And it was kind of dimly lit, you know. So basically, when I said, how do you feel?

Well, he just got teared up. And I thought, okay. you know you don't have to tell me how you feel i see how you feel you you're you're broken here and so uh figured out that you know it's when you don't have a father figure you uh it's gonna be tough and the and his father was reminded me of our father phil when out when we were kids before jesus and so i think that was the connection you know in his life and growing up and becoming a teenager, he kind of found an oasis in the duck show.

It was a good distraction. And I think when you have family problems and you watch a family that is, there's something there, that spark, what we're saying. Of course, it's the spirit of God, but people in the world, they don't know that. They're just like, man, that must be nice. That looks fun.

These people are laughing. They're getting along. and so that became the foundation of me sharing Jesus, which is basically God getting his human family back together through Jesus. And in essence, it put our family back together. And not saying that that's going to happen every time to your earthly family, but it gives you all the components for that to happen. When you start talking about new creation, forgiveness, hope of the resurrection,

I mean, all these things, love, joy, peace through his spirit, all these qualities that make great relationships. And so, of course, it led to him, you know, being baptized. And, you know, I asked what his confession was. And it was just, he was a man a few words. But boy, I tell you, when he said that confidence that Jesus, he wanted Jesus to be his Lord and Savior of his life. It was real touching. It was fantastic. And I think it shows you just in our world.

the two kingdoms at work. You know, in his life, here he is, contemplating with all his buddies and all, because we got into, you know, his life, whether he's going to be a gang member or a part of Jesus' gang. And I think he chose wisely. And the neat thing about it, Jace, if we could, you know, and we may or may not be able to, but if you could follow the pathway of this young man as he grows older

and he starts a family and, you know, connects and leads other people to cry. If it follows the pathway now that the Holy Spirit will guide him into, as long as he keeps following it, it's going to be amazing to see the fruit of what would happen versus obviously the fruit of what would be a bad situation. And that's the beauty of it. You don't have to, I mean, I was the same age when I turned it around 18. I mean, it's like, I get it. I need to, this is where I need to be.

And I've been doing it ever since. You know, something happened this last week. And it has nothing to do with the spiritual aspect of what we're talking about. And yet everything, I don't know if you were aware of this, Jace, but a couple of weeks ago, Nick Saban was inducted into the Louisiana Sports Hall of Fame. Of which, by the way, our own dad, Phil Robertson, is also in that same Hall of Fame, more for his hunting exploits, but also some of his athletic stuff. But when I was reading what Saban,

Saban came. He came to it. He participated in the events all weekend. And I went there with Dad, so I know kind of what that entails. And it's a commitment because you're there for a whole weekend, doing things with other people that go in in your class. But I was reading the comments he made.

And it made me feel good because, you know, there's always kind of been a love-hate relationship in Louisiana with Saban because he turned us around. But he winds up at Alabama, who we hate. And I say that hate in quotes because we don't really hate you all, but we love you. No, you hate them. You hate them. It's okay. Well, no, just one of the football teams are quite.

I'm married in Alabama fans. I'm, I love you. I love you. But, yeah, it's a little annoying at times. So anyway, now he's retired, which makes it easier. But I just love the fact that he's in the Hall of Fame. And he's talking about how much he loved Louisiana, how much when they came there, what it meant to him. He talks about the people and he talked about the relationships.

in his speech that he made, you know, when he was inducted. And I thought, well, that's really what it's about. Like, you can, you make decisions in your life that alienate some people, attracts other people. But at the end of the day, you know, you want to be loved, you want to be forgiven. You want to be trusted, you know, all the blessings that come along with life. And so I thought, I'm so glad that now Louisiana people, I'm hoping they can embrace what Nick Sava did for LSU and Louisiana.

And it's just a football thing, but at the same time, it is kind of a bigger thumbnail of really the whole picture of kind of how you want to live your life. So I was impacted by that. But I didn't know if you knew that, Jason. I was going to share that with you. I didn't know that, but I think it's cool. Well, how are we transitioning from our last two podcasts? I thought those were. Well, so here's what I thought.

They were great. And we did a lot of rabbit holes, but I think the audience is ready for us to wrap up and let John 11. So I thought on this podcast, and our remaining time, if there's anything you didn't get to say about the story in John 11, because we have read excerpts, we've dealt with individuals.

We did two podcasts on the love of God, which I was so glad we did, because Jace was right. We missed a huge lead-in to that. Because every time you think about it, now every time Jay's, I see that, and especially when I see perfection, I will think about the discussion we have.

Well, I think our problem, the reason, was excited about it is I think we tend as followers of Jesus, we tend to end the love of God at the cross. And of course, for God to love the world that he gave up his only son. But we immediately think of the cross. But just in our discussion today and with the blind and having that added by feel, Jesus always was thinking of that the cross, what he came here to do, and the resurrection

as a revealing of the overarching story of the Bible, which is the love of God being revealed, and being displayed. And I went through that whole thing about power. Yeah. Which power and love mean nothing. If you don't have a being, it's hard to call God a person. And we struggle with how to call him a being with three persons. But I think that that is something that John 11 really shows

because the verse I keep reading, and this is the one thing I kind of left out, I thought one of those rabbit holes was, you know, in John 10, I keep reading this over and over because when he says in verse 16, I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen, you know, talking about these Jews and Gentiles coming together, which is going to pick up the same idea in 11 and 12. You know, the Greeks show up, and all of a sudden, you know, you get language about God bringing everyone together.

But it says, I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock and one shepherd. and this 17 and 18 to me shows, illustrates what I'm talking about. The reason my father loves me, there's that word love, is that I lay down my life.

But then watch what it says. Only to take it up again. He's not ending at me laying down my life. Only to take it up again, to Phil's point. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. And then here's the power.

I have authority or power to lay it down and authority or power to take it up again. I mean, he keeps, this pattern is all over. Jesus is writing.

And the command I received from my father. So when I did the word perfect, that perfect love, remember when we went through, I think, I think it was 19 times it's used.

And I did the one on the rich young ruler. But one thing I left out, because we read Matthew's version. And you remember, in Matthew's version where it says, if you want to be, he told him, he's like, if you want to be perfect, go sell everything you have and give to the poor. But in Mark's version of that, which is Mark 10, and you remember I made the point that

God's overarching power display of love is why he sent Jesus. It's why it's in John 11 where it's like he loved Mary, he loved Martha,

he love Lazarus. And then you see this display in how he interacted with them even in his emotions and ultimately resuscitating him, and I'm using that word on purpose, because what separates Jesus' resurrection from all other people that were raised

is that Jesus was the firstborn, the authority of having the ability. He was raised once for all, for all times. For all people, yeah, never to die again. It's kind of the word firstborn. He's the first place, the source. of new creation, new humans in a new mode of being here.

So saying all that, but even in that story with the rich young ruler, there was just one little phrase that I wanted to highlight in Mark's version because it didn't end well for the rich young ruler. No, he went away sad.

He went away sad, but I want you to notice one thing. And in Mark's version, Let's see. Where's that at? Mark 10 in verse 17. As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. Good teacher.

What must I do to inherit eternal life? Why do you call me good? We read this last time when I read that. No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments. And all these commandments, if you break them, destroy relationships. Relationships. Yeah.

Don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't get false testimony. Don't defraud. Honor your father and mother. Now in Matthew's version, he puts in love your neighbor. And so he's like, well, all these I've kept since I was a boy. And I made the point that then Jesus asked that next question, oh, have you? Because then he says, go sell everything you have and give to the poor. But in Mark's version in verse 21, there's a little statement here, and this is what I wanted to highlight on.

Jesus looked at him and loved him. Even though he knew this wasn't going to end well, because he knew what was inside a man. And I'm just simply making the point that God's love is offered to all. And Jesus displayed that in very uncomfortable conversation. even like here. And he told him the truth. Go sell everything you have. And it wasn't about materialism.

It wasn't about, it was about his heart and recognizing the way God displays that power in love. Jesus looked at him and loved him. He still loved him. And I just... Which is a, I mean, that's a pretty compelling argument. If anyone's wondering,

does God love all? Exactly. That's why I was going here, you know, because I think when people look at the cross, they think, well, that was the love part. And, you know, we got that. And then, but then you read passages like 1st Corinthians 15, which is talking about the resurrection. And he's like, well, if there's no resurrection,

you're still in your sins. So, and I think people say that, well, they're like, well, why did Jesus say it is finished? you know, on the cross. And I'm like, well, that part was finished, but I know one thing, Jesus was real clear. That resurrection was a game changer about God's love.

And I, you know, there's a lot of reasons for that and we discussed a lot of them, but I just simply wanted to make that point. I think it's interesting. That's a very interesting point. And I say it this way that it was finished when Jesus said it's finished, but he was not finished. I mean, even post-resurrection, Jesus ascends to the Father, and he sits, not sat, he sits at the right hand of the Father,

and he mediates, not mediated, he mediates for us now. And so I think it's to your point, it's, we've got to expand our understanding of salvation beyond just our justification, you know, being freed from the penalty of sin. It's got to be, it's got to move into one sanctification that I'm progressively free from the power and the grip of sin over my life. And then also the future salvation or glorification, when we'll be free from the presence of sin.

But all of that happens. You know, it's interesting. It all happens through resurrection. And so there's a word I use a lot called motif, M-O-T-I-F, which means basically like a pattern that you can see. Are you looking for something, Jayce? He's looking it up. I knew you were going to go here.

And somewhere in my searches in my Bible study, I knew you were going to go here. And so you were prepared? I wasn't prepared, but I thought, just in case Zach does this, I'll find it. You keep talking about the motif. So a motif is like a pattern that or an image that's repeated over and over that kind of creates a greater cohesion of a story. And there's a resurrection motif in the entire Bible. And it hit me this week because we did a podcast on Not Yet Now.

we talked about the parable of the sower in Mark chapter four. And there's this really interesting thing in the parable of the sower where it's all these different kinds of soil, four different types of soil, and only one of them is like the right kind of soil. But there's a prophecy from the Old Testament that is given that Jesus gives in this parable. And it's a prophecy out of Isaiah chapter six. Now, you've got to keep in mind, the whole parable of the sower is about a sower sewing this seed. So it's about a seed hitting the ground, and only one of them grows. Well, then when you go back and read Isaiah chapter six, it's like the most depressing, like, chapter in the Bible, because it's pretty much God saying, I'm going scorched earth,

I'm burning everything to the ground, and these people will not hear, they will not listen. It almost sounds like he's intentionally, like, withholding himself from him, but that's a bigger discussion. but there's this weird thing at the very end of Isaiah chapter 6, and I think it's the resurrection motif. It says this, everything's burned, everything's scorched, nothing left. It's just a forsaken place. I mean, just a wasteland without inhabitant, without houses, without people, and the land is a desolate waste, and the Lord removes the people far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land. And then he says this. and though a tenth remain in it,

it'll be burned again, like a terabith or an oak, whose stump remains when it is felled. And here's the last line of Isaiah 6. The holy seed, the seed, the parable of the sewer, the holy seed is its stump. And it hit me,

what he's saying there is, that the kingdom, new life, it's all going to come from a A scorched earth, burn it to the ground, which is us. We burn ourselves. The Holy Spirit burns us to the ground, and it's in that death, in that scorched earth, just nothing desolate wasteland that something pops up there.

The Holy See, here's Jesus, by the way. He pops up, and then boom, from their new life. And so that's the resurrection thing that's happening throughout all of Scripture. It is in the Old Testament. It is a covenant of grace that continues to be. build upon itself. And by the time we get to John 11, I mean, we're still not fully there because Jesus hadn't been raised yet. But this story of Lazaroth being raised from the dead, this is, again, just, it's stacking that story of that covenant of grace is just building and building and building

until we get to the point where Jesus is going to be raised from the dead and he's going to draw all men and the nations to himself. And that's what we're living in right now. And I was saying Matt, Zach, when you were reading that, Zach, when you were reading that, Zachary 6, 12, popped into my brain. Same imagery. Zacharii put it this way. Here is the man whose name is the branch, capital B. And earlier he talks about a branch coming out of a dead stump. And he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the Lord. It is he who will build the temple of the Lord. He will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne and there will be harmony between the two.

That's good. Which, again, was not allowable under Jewish law, but this was something beyond Jewish law, beyond everything, one who would be both priest and king and prophet. And we would, you know, it's obvious that's a prophetic message about Jesus. But, I mean, that's all over the Old Testament, to your point. Yeah. No, what I was looking up is, because every time we get on this conversation, you brought up this word, you know, where does this propitiation fall into this aspect?

Because you have some people, you know, focus on when Jesus died, you know, that appease God's wrath because we're sinful people. And I agree with it's in the Bible. And it's only mentioned six times in three different forms. But I'd never look that up. and so and here's my point i think when people just focus on that aspect which is an aspect it tends to miss i think a greater point and i i want to list those six verses uh let me find them i got them listed you can i did the i did the on the propitiation of sin yeah the propitiation where that form of word is used it's hard to find because it's only mentioned like if you do

the Greek hub, I'm looking for it here, you do the Greek Bible hub, it's going to say it's only mentioned twice. So you kind of have to go down through the rabbit hole. And the reason he's saying that if you don't do a lot of study in this area is that a Greek word sometimes will have different variants of it. And we would have the same thing if you said, used a word like weep and weeping and wept. And, you know, there's a different ways for that word to be used that sometimes I was in Greek. So you have to kind of run the strand out to find the different person. Well, and what I found was I didn't realize that this was an argument among scholars.

And I think this is worth divulging into just because, you know, some scholars, they're like, well, you know, the word should be, and there's another word, which I probably not even want to be able to say, Expecit. Let me, I'll tell you what, Maddie. Let me spell it. And then get Zach to pronounce it. There's another word that people say,

well, it should be translated this way, which is E-X-P-I-A-T-I-O-N. How do you say that? Expliciation. Expeciation. Expeciation. Yeah. Not pro.

X. Not pro, but X. X. X. X. Yeah. You got propitiation. which that means the act of making amends or repairing from guilt or wrongdoing,

atonement. So you see it has the same atonement word. So you're like, what does all this mean? Is it to appease God's wrath? Well, here's what I came up with. When I read the six times it's used, which is, I'll give you the verses. You got Luke 183. It's probably not going to be translated propitiated.

propitiation in your Bible. I think it's mercy there, but we'll read it if you have it. And Hebrews 217. Grant me justice is the word there. Yeah, so read this story, Al, just to get the...

It's the persistent widow story where she's like, Jesus is using it as an illustration about how to pray, and the woman is going to a judge, and she says that she kept coming to him with this plea. Grant me justice.

against my adversary, which I'm assuming propitiation is the word. All right. So there's one. So then you have Hebrews 217. So read that. Put my context to the list today. For this reason, talking about Jesus,

he had to be made like his brothers in every way in order that he might become a merciful, I'm sure that's the word, and faithful high priest in service to God. Oh, here it is. And that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. There's your word. Yeah, that's it.

So there's the word. So that's one form of that word that's translated propitiation, which what we're saying is it's appeasing God's wrath, like what Zach said, from the penalty of sin. The next two are Romans 325, which, by the way, is the only time Paul actually used the word, which is pretty incredible. And that's kind of the end of the text

when he's been talking about all the different people. Well, read 24 and 25 because the point I'm going to make uses this idea of... All right, I'll start here. It starts the sentence in 22. There is no difference for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement. There's the word.

through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice because in his forbearance he had left sins committed beforehand unpunished. Yeah, so you see where that idea is getting there. So then the other time that form of the word is used is in Hebrews 9-5. And then the last two are going to be both in 1st John

where it actually is translated propitiation. I mean, I think that's interesting because look, I've been studying the Bible a long time and I'm like, what does this actually mean? And so if you'll go down this rabbit hole with us in time, I think the conclusion is interesting. Okay, Hebrews 9-5 is talking about, is comparing the tabernacle.

It's going to be the mercy seat is the word. Right. Above the ark with the cherubim of the glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. Yeah. So you go read Leviticus 16, 15, and 16 and you'll see this mercy seat.

They would sprinkle blood on it. And you remember this is the whole deal about for the presence of God to enter. And remember the... Behind the Holy of Holies, the sheriff of guarding the way. And then you have this process, though,

you know, where you, the... And you take one goat and put the sins, you know, on the goat, sprinkle the blood and put him outside the camp. And, you know, then you're also sacrificing others for different things, but you're sprinkling this blood on the mercy seat. So go read that on your own. You'll see why he's using that word there. So then the last two are 1 John 2, 2, 2, and 1 John 410.

All right. What was it again? 1 John 2, 2, and 1 John 410. Oh, yeah. So that's the kind of famous thing about talking about Jews. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin, but if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense, Jesus Christ, the righteous one. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins. There's the word. And not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yeah. So which one was that? First John 2, 1 and 2. All right, and then 410. And then we'll make the analysis. 410. This is love. Not that we love God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice.

There's the word for our sins. Well, I'm glad you ended that one because it was in the context of love, which is my point. So you're like, Jace, why are we doing all this? Well, one, I think we need to figure out what in the world that means. So here was my conclusion of this thing. When you detach the death of Jesus from the resurrection, number one, you're doing something that Jesus didn't do because over and over again, he put it together. I think what happens is it leads to a misunderstanding of exactly what happened. And here's my point.

Yes, it was to appease God's wrath because all people sin and he is a God of justice. But if you just leave it there without the resurrection, well, what do you have? All you have is we have a different view of how God views us. He went from angry to satisfied. That's it. But when you tie in the resurrection and all the verses around this, you start seeing, oh, wait a minute. Think of all the times where Jesus said he freed us.

He gave his life as a ransom, this kind of terminology, or he purified us from all sin, you know, in reference to the cross. Well, now all of a sudden, when you add those two things together, it's not that he just put us in a state where we're good. He freed us. He purified us. Well, now you start thinking, Well, why? Well, now you're getting into the resurrection.

Not only that we can live forever, but also we can be free to do something. It ties in, it's a liberation out from under one state into another. For what reason? To become something. And I think when you just try to detach one from the other, you're not focused on, well, what am I? Why did he do this? What's the result of this? And so it's a combination of both.

That's why I brought up that word, what did we call that? Expeation. Expeation. Because you're now, you're redeemed. You're raised to new life. It's a new humanity. It's deeper than just changing the view of God. We're created to do something.

and that's where it gets into this love aspect of freedom in Christ. You know, guilt is gone. The wrath is gone. And it's a liberation, which is why I think it's tied in together. So what say you... So, well, I tell you this, because we're almost out of time, but I had never thought about this before this discussion. But when you think about it at the end, and this will be our bridge for the next podcast,

You remember when Caiaphas, who was the high priest, speaks up and says, you know nothing at all. This is in John 1149. You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than the whole nation parish. He's making a prophecy of exactly what's going to happen. We mentioned this earlier. But to your point, days, his view of what the death of Jesus was about had nothing to do with what the death of Jesus was about. So the same event viewed through the wrong lens has completely the not what you want to acquire idea behind it. And so he was saying, if we don't kill this guy, then the Romans are going to come and destroy us.

What he didn't realize was you can't kill this guy because he's given his life to become now a part of a new kingdom that the Romans can't touch and destroy. in fact, it will ultimately wind up triumping over them. So it really is interesting that if you view through only one prism, that you can miss the point. And if you don't understand the resurrection and the ascension and the Holy Spirit and their role in the post-decision to follow Christ's decision, then you're going to miss a huge part of the point. Well, I was basically saying that Jesus on the cross and the resurrection, when you combine them both, not only does he cleanse us of our sin, and appease the wrath, but he also sets us free. And you can't have one without the other, because if you just focus on the one,

well, we're all just sitting here saying, who, well, glad I made it, you know, but I barely made. Yeah, my experience in this debate on Atonement has been that, that it's kind of, you can kind of get off on it on either side of it. And I think it's kind of like the kingdom, you know, the bits of both am. not yet now.

I think that's what I've, when I've gone into these, like, debates and, like, deep studies on the tolment, I'm like, like, he did pay for our sin, and we were guilty. And I want to talk about this

in the next podcast, because there is, there is a lot of people that I follow and like their, their writings and their work, but they tend to minimize the atlalment. And there's, there's others to your point that would,

I would think, over, or maybe not over-emphasize the wrong word. It's just they, they, they leave off, the life part. They leave off the freedom part. They leave off the resurrected life, the abundant life. So I think it's a big discussion, but unfortunately we're like over time. No, I think you did good. I think it is a combination of both. And that is the point. Quit trying to dissect what God did.

When you look at it in the hole, I think you're going to find that God did this because at the root of it, he's a lover of all people. and he wants them and he proved that and displayed that and then not only is it just for your own satisfaction or his own satisfaction but it's then

becoming contagious which is why 1st John 4 would go on to say we become like Jesus in the world and perfect love cast out fear we'll pick this out next time on Unashame thanks for listening to the Unashamed

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