Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1138 | Jase Reveals Why Jesus’ Name Was Edited Out of ‘Duck Dynasty’ but He Was Still There

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

Jase, Al, and Zach laugh about Phil’s infamous CPAC speech that left a roomful of bowtie-wearing politicians speechless.They also dive into one of the most vulnerable stories Jase has ever shared—helping his teenage son navigate suicidal thoughts. The guys reflect on how Duck Dynasty quietly pointed to Jesus, even when His name was rarely spoken on the show. The conversation leads into the biblical call to die to self and the misunderstood idea of “hating your life” from John 12 and Luke 14. In this episode: John 12; John 17, verse 18; Revelation 12, verse 11; Colossians 3, verses 1–3; Malachi 1, verses 2–3; Proverbs 6, verses 16–19; 1 John 4, verse 8 —  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashame. We just, the last podcast you just watched, or watched this week, we just finished recording it. So we're all still kind of like blown away. Oh, Blake is a, man, what a, what a powerful story. But, you know, it's not easy for people to be, you know, super raw and super real, you know, in front of other people they hadn't met before, even the people you respect and all that. It's not easy to do that. We tend to kind of want to compose ourselves and present the best version of ourselves. So that's what impacted me about his story and his willingness to come talk to us on the podcast because, you know, obviously, you know, our family had a, you know, we played a role. in his story.

But just to be that raw, that was amazing. I was moved. I think he's new. We were hugging and high-fiving, by the way, after it was all over and just saying, you know, we got a new best friend. He's new in the faith. And I think you see that,

which I've said this before about my dad, which I really, I think was a catalyst to me eventually, you know, opening up to Jesus for myself, was that, that thrill of being rescued by Jesus, you see it in new Christians all over the place. What happens is then they kind of get, what is the word, denominationalized?

Yeah. I was trying to do that word. You know, and it's like, what happened? What happened? Why? And you know what I mean? It's once that wears off, It shouldn't wear out.

It should never wear out. I think my dad was known for putting that into practice, which is why I think it's not just about punching the ticket. It's about what God has called you to do. Well, you get into a sect. You get sectarian sect. I remember because everybody wants to who you with. And one of my favorite Phil stories was when we were,

where were you at? I think it was CPAC, maybe. And he got up there. Well, he had brought his cardiologist with him. Greg Sampanera. Yeah. Is the guy's name. Still is our cardiologist.

Still is our family cardiologist. He's our family cardiologist. Yeah. And Phil gets up and his opening line, I think I can't remember where it was that. It was a big crowd. No, it's a CPAC. And he goes, 2016. You say, Phil, who you be with?

And he had on that old browning shirt. and just the tattered pants and the torn up Bible. It was just like. But the question was, who you be with? Yeah, who you be with. And he said, I'd be with the father, the son, the spirit, and San Bernardo. Everybody's like, what? So the next day on the internet, it was like, who is Sanpanaro?

Who is Sanpanaro? He's a heart doctor. But, but I mean, what group are you with? Who's, I mean, what's your, I mean, I think to your point, it's like, no, yeah, Bill was great about. No, I'm pretty much going to stick with the father, son, and the Holy Spirit. That's who I'm with. And we're not going to try to attach too much to him.

Well, he was there to receive the Breitbart Award, which is an award they give to unique people who are willing to stand on conservative principle. What was funny to me was he got his Bible out, did a whole thing on STDs and all these other things. And I'm looking around at all the young Republicans with their little bow ties on, and they looked like they were shell-shocked. I know what he said was he said one out of three, one out of three after he'd list all the... Would develop a sexually transiting. And then he said, yeah, but the lot in the money line was look to your left, look to your right. One of you's got it. It was like a moment of like, whoa, okay.

It was just silence, but it was so, it was delicious silence as well. Oh, God. It was a classic film. It was an election year, so all these people. people running for president in 2016 were walking around with their little antirages and everybody's got their little stump speeches ready and then dad just blasted out of the water. It was so classic dad and the guy was sitting next to me leaned over and said, your dad looks like he just walked off the pages of the Old Testament. That's a good line. That was a great line. Well, speaking of Blake

on this being thrilling, I think you know how people what I said, they kind of denominationalize everything, is they'll say, well, you know, there's two ways for us to, you know, reenact the death, barrel, and resurrection, and Zach probably knows all the Christianese words for it. But, you know, you have baptism, because you reenact Jesus' death, and then you have the Lord's Supper. Yeah. You, you know, by taking the bread, you think about Jesus' death. You memorialize and remember what he did. Yeah, you remember it. But you got to remember Jesus leading up to his death, barrel resurrection, he was constantly saying,

I mean, where we're at John 12, he's forecasting his death, barrel, and resurrection and the implications of that. But, you know, when we get to John 17 in his prayer for his disciples, he makes this verse, you know, that we call a verse, but he's saying in verse 18, as you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. And even in Blake's, I guess we can call it a testimony there,

he brought up that Luke 15 and he got moved because he was like, well, I'm the one sheep. And I remember having that same thought. And my point is, there should be a third leg to that saying, okay, you reenact Jesus' death, barrel, resurrection, and baptism. You take the Lord's Supper. but every time you proclaim Jesus and someone responds, you're literally reliving the death, barrel, and resurrection,

not only in your own conversion. That's a great point. And I'm like, why is that never mentioned? Because that's our mission. It's in Revelation 12. Exactly. 11, yeah. Well, and Luke 15, just think about it.

Why is he telling this story about the lost sheep? It all started because the Pharisees looked up there and said, well, look at who this guy. I was eating with. Tax collectors and sinners. Why is he doing that? They're not in the special club. Because in the denominational world, how much is that prevalent? The reason we have thousands of denominations, because everybody wants to think, well, we're the ones that got it figured out. We're in the special club. And here's Jesus with the riff-rath. I mean, and we all think that. You pass people on the side of the road, especially late at night. And you're like,

like, well, they're up to no good. Well, this is the kind of people Jesus is hanging out with. And he tells those three stories, and that one is about the sheep. That's why he's eating with the riffraff. And that's why this becomes thrilling. Every time I see someone give their life to Jesus, it's just thrilling to me. I've said many times when they have baptisms and all. I think it should be a standing ovation because heaven's rejoicing.

Why are we just like, I mean, of all things we should be doing, yawning is not one of them. I will say, Jason, at our church, it is a celebration. It is. I wasn't. They got that on straight. But it should be. People hollering. When I told Zach this weekend, I mean, this weekend, which I've talked about on a couple of podcasts ago,

some people totally submitted to Christ, and I got to be a part of witnessing that. And it is. It's the kind of addiction. We talked about a lot about addiction with Blake. It's the addiction you want to have, the addiction to change lives. I mean, when you see that and we witness stories that we just heard from him, that's what's addictive to me. Like, I can't get enough of that.

That's something like... Well, to your point, like, Jace, it's a... I think hearing that testimony, it does disarm the enemy and the accuser. and that Revelation 12 passage actually says that the two ways that we overcome him is by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. And I think it's because when we are reliving that out, like that Roman six, I think one of the is why the blood of the lamb is first, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You don't have a testimony. You don't have a testimony without the blood of the lamb. But it's like a symbiotic relationship. And the blood of the lamb without the resurrection, what do you got? Yeah, yeah. But I thought, you know, Roman 6 passage is so key when we used to read that, you know, and we would make it only about baptism. But if you read the language of Roman 6, that is not a one-time event.

No, it's ongoing. The actual point is sanctification and ongoing to live a, you're raised to live a new life. Colossians 2, Colossians 3. In fact, Paul uses a very graphic term to describe it. He says, we become enslaved, but this time, to righteousness. In other words, we are so beholding to it.

Because, you know, the last part of that Red Bulls 1211 says, and we don't love this life so much that we would shrink back from anything, including death itself. Yeah. And I did find it interesting, Jason, and I know you're going to go here in John 12,

that the pivotal moment that Blake described was when he was ready to take his physical life to suicide. And then he said, the words he said was, but that became the moment I finally. submitted to Christ. Yeah. Which, in essence, he did die that day. He did start that process.

Yeah, that's a hard thing to say. I know Jay said it, and I thought it was really good, you know, because there is, there is even in the worst thing imaginable. They kind of, think about, like, I have to die. Well, yeah, you kind of do, but you got to understand what that means. Yeah. And I think Phil, you know, in the movie, the blind, that. They asked that question, you know, he said, Phil, you got to die.

You got to get to the end of yourself. Yeah. And that was like, you got to quit touching stuff. I mean, that's what he told him. Everything I touch has turned the dirt. And Bill's like, well, you know what I do with everything I touch turned to dirt? Quit touch and stuff. I quit touch yourself.

But the question is, well, how do I do that? Well, you got to die. Well, and be born. And then he proves that when he says the line I said in the last podcast, that man is dead. That man is gone. Well, and I think as a new Christian, which is what led after the podcast of me and Blake exchange of numbers, because I said, look, you got to make the connection to what the Bible is saying. And he was like, well, I was like, how do you do your Bible study?

He's like, well, I'm just Googling it. And I thought, well, and I said, well, how's that working for you? And he said, very confusing. Because we're so. Because he's brand new. It's all the denomination. and one thing, somebody's saying one thing and it's just overwhelming.

But I brought up the fact. I said, but here's what I found fascinating about the conversation. I had just read Colossians 3 that says, since you died with Christ. What was the exact verse I read? I can't remember now.

Colossians 3, it says, when he said, since then you have been raised with Christ, verse 1. But then he says, verse three, for you died and your life is now hidden in Christ. And so I said, but then right

after that, you talked about the most vulnerable time of your life when you were thinking about taking your own life. I said, but you didn't make the connection with that Bible verse. These people they didn't die physically

right here, but he's saying you died with Christ. And I said, making that connection and the reason I was saying that I didn't share this but I'll share this

with y'all because my son has said this in public before when he was a teenager he was just struggling he was not doing good

as we all when we go through our teenage years which by the way he talked about this on I am second when he did his IM second deal

he did and well you know it it's very difficult to have a conversation with your kid and he's saying you know, dad, I'm having suicidal thoughts.

Well, I took the same conversation we just had. And I said, look, that that, you're close to understanding that I viewed it. I didn't take the negative approach. Now, I did make one comment about it saying that God doesn't like quitters. He doesn't, he doesn't like quit. The struggle, there's glory in the struggle. So that was how I addressed that. But I also said, it's your inner being saying, I got to die.

And I said, that's a good thing in Christ. And so I went through the gospel again, which I know he had heard many times. But in that moment of vulnerability, it's like a light bulb went on. And the reason I bring it up, because years later, he came back to me and said, remember that time? You know, when I brought up, I was having suicidal thoughts. He's like, your advice was the best advice that I've ever gotten, which it wasn't my advice. I just, I knew those scriptures were there, and I knew what he was thinking, his heart was saying.

It was dark, and he was saying, if I could just start over, I need to be done with this life. And it's something that Jesus specifically talks about in John 12, which I wanted to get into it in the last podcast, but I thought, If we do that, we're going to get bogged down. There was a, in my opinion, in the last podcast, there was a moment that I thought was, you made a point that we kind of, you made the point, but it was kind of,

we didn't sit in enough, in my opinion, because it was really good. He had made the point about Duck Dynasty being such a pivotal thing in his life. And it created in him a curiosity for the kingdom. And he's like, man, I wouldn't be here without that show.

And as he was saying it, at first I was thinking, like, I was kind of like, you were thinking. Like, it wasn't like a Christian show. I mean, like, there was a prayer, but like, you know what I mean, like, it wasn't like an explicit.

Yeah. What I told you after the podcast, which is the reason I started reading scriptures to him. Yeah. About we're hidden in Christ. And because he had an idea of the show that was not really true. He said, y'all were talking about Jesus and being unashamed. Well, we weren't doing that on the show. That all happened after the show.

The prayer was right. There was a prayer at the end, and that was the most moving. Because when we did talk about Jesus in the filming of Duck Dynasty, that was edited out. Right. So Jesus has never mentioned outside of in Jesus' name. And so, but I think that's ironic. No, it is. Because in his mind, so what was the draw?

And I told him, after the podcast, I said, the draw was. was Christ living in us, but that was hidden. You just saw it and made that right conclusion. Oh, they're all about Jesus. I thought that's fascinating. But if you go back and watch the show, I don't know when it's the last time you I watched episodes, but I watched them recently,

Jesus is all over it, but not mentioned by name, because he lived in us, because when I listen to like Willie's voiceovers right before the prayer. They're about forgiveness. They're about being there for one another. They're about family. The six to...

I mean, when I listen now to the words that were just kind of the little what did we learn from this episode talks, it was all over. It was just the hidden treasure of what he done. If Christ is in us, you see it. It's not to diminish what he experienced from the show. That was a real thing that the show did minister to him.

And this doesn't, by the way, this doesn't mean that we don't... actually teach doctrine and go to the Bible. We do, but the point that you're making is what he was tasting and what he was experiencing, it was hidden. I mean, it was certainly hidden, but it was there, which that's the point you mentioned in Colosses. I wanted to read the verse. I don't remember if you read this or not. I think you referenced it. Colossius 127 says to them, God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery or of this secret. the thing is, he's going to tell us what this mystery is, which is Christ in you the hope of

glory. Yes. That's the intangible thing that, like, it's, I think this is like every bit as powerful, like that manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the bodies of believers. And I don't need to be necessarily giving you a dissertation on substitutionary penal atonement or eschatology or whatever big word I want to use. Like, when you're in the presence, like, you walked in. in this building today, and the I.M. Second folks are out there, and they just met Blake.

And they're literally, like, having a prayer session. A group where they were all around in which, look at it from my perspective. I don't know who Blake is. I walked in, there's a circus equipment everywhere. There's a group of people praying very emotionally. I just assumed, oh, one of their crew members because most crew members in any production have a lot of tattoos looks like Blake

and I thought oh, the only difference is he works out Yeah, I should say Maddie you wouldn't believe the tattoos Yeah, so we're and so I just assume he was with that crew

Well then he walked in and I thought, well isn't this something One of their crew members He just wants to listen to our podcast And then the next thing you know He's sitting over here beside me I'm like, oh what happened out there He's like, man, we just got to talk.

The next thing I know, they said, can we pray? I knew who he was because I had looked him up, but I thought they were interviewing him, but they weren't. They were just talking, and then I saw the prayers. Well, don't you know, like, when you get around some people, and even like the Christian circles, like, this will happen, and you're like, we're having a great conversation, everything's great, we move on, we do our thing and leave. Then sometimes you meet people, and you just know, there's just something.

And there's like, man, this is real. The Spirit's present. God's, like, you just know. And I think it's like, and I think that is the one of the most powerful, nothing has to be said. I'm not saying, to see what you say this, people say, well, are you saying that you don't ever preach the God? No, you preach the Gospels too. But what, but it is true that there is a powerful, tangible expression of the Holy Spirit living

in people that you can't put into words. It is a secret. It is a mystery. And I like that idea of continuation. I wanted to go back because I had a thought when you said that you told Reed about the idea of God not liking quitters. It made me think of Rahab in Genesis 16. Remember she's out and she's been cast out by Sarah and she's got her little son there, Ishmael, and she's wondering what's going to happen to her.

And she's basically given up. And the angel of the Lord showed up and said, God has heard your son. suffering, now go back and suffer some more. That was what he told her. Yeah. And so what he was saying was is, I hear you, but you're still working through a process that I've laid out for you. And so I just, I like that, I like that analogy.

It takes years to, you know, look, our childhood was pretty traumatizing. But it took me years to be thankful for that whole mess. I'm thankful for it now. Because to me, God became real in Jesus and the transformation of lives and the struggle of trying to do it God's way. I'm talking about just living life and making a living and all the problems of the growing pains from the lack of parental supervision when we were young. That whole struggle, it just took me a while to grow in Christ to realize, okay, this is the hand we're dealt in life. in life. God is present amidst his enemies.

I mean, and he works it out through that. And I also wanted to say the whole reason I was kind of pushing back with Scripture because when Blake was saying that, the evil one uses even success as a temptation. I'm like, this is not about me. This is not about us. I mean, we've done over a thousand podcasts and we tell stories and personal, and we, you know, we tell jokes, but it's not about us.

Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, all those things are useful to show that Christ is in us. I mean, we like to have a good time, you know, and we have struggle, but it always comes back to that, but you're drawing the world to you, so however are we going to do that? I'm fine with, you know? Yeah. Whatever that is, in his case, this Blake saw the worst of the worst of the world. I mean, literal war.

People trying to kill each other. And then war, when he got here, when he turns out, he's a SWAT officer, you know, in a gang-ridden, terrible situation. I mean, he saw more. I mean, do you realize how far that sheep that God had to go to put on his shoulder and bring him out of all this mess? But didn't he think about it when Jesus said, you know, no one's going to take my life, I came here to give it?

I mean, I just, I couldn't help but think back to that. I'm glad you keep coming back to that because I think it's such a unlocking mechanism to understanding why God came in Jesus. Because when you think about it, what sin does, you know, we only tend to talk about one aspect of it from an individual. Oh, well, God came down because it had sins and he wants me to be legally correct before him. But I think it's deeper than that. I think it started in the beginning, of course, but it's like, look what they've done. I mean, look at this.

It's underestimated how we all contribute by our sins to make this world as bad as it is. And he just said, I'm going to redeem you. And the plan, looking at it through that vein, I mean, of all the things he could have said, to do about it. He's just like, I'm coming. I'm coming down there. But what a word for, like, when you're in that suffering, right? Because you mentioned the Hagar situation.

God's like, I see your suffering. I go suffer some more. Why is the suffering necessary? And that's really the point of how John 12 ends. Jesus basically saying, look, if a grain of wheat falls to the ground, how does he say it? He says if a grain of wheat, true do I say to you.

Yeah, let's read this and unchecked this section. Before you say that, before you leave the Hagar, since you brought her back up, 13 years went by from that first conversation with the angel of the Lord. She's pregnant.

She has this son. She has him 13 more years of suffering at the hands of Sarah in that whole story. Yeah. And then guess what? She winds out right back out in the wilderness. Same spring.

Now without water. Yeah. Thinking she's about. to die and God says, no, there's water. And she opened her eyes and she saw a spring, a well. And God saw her through the suffering. And Ishmael got blessings. But she couldn't see the water until she got the blessing. Exactly. And I think that's so. The passage here is in John 12, I'll start with John 12, 20, because it has everything to do with what we're talking about with this idea of death. Now among those who went up to worship at the feast for some Greeks,

So these came to Philip who was from Metsadia in Galilee and asked him, sir, we wish to see Jesus. Philip went and told Andrew, Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus. Because they had the Greek names, by the way. And this is a huge thing that these Greek showed up. This is that picture that Jesus' death is for more than just the Jews. It's very provocative. This is the idea of the nation's coming, right? And Jesus answered them, the hour has come for the son of man.

the Daniel 7 reference, to be glorified. And here's his case. Truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone. So you think about a grain of wheat sitting on a stock. If it just stays there, it's by itself. It is what it is. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.

So death is essential in the production of the fruit. Whoever loves his life loses it. And whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. That's the fruit that he's talking about. If anyone serves me, he must follow me. And where I am, therefore, will be my servant also. If anyone serves me, the father will honor him. I mean, that's a pretty powerful statement.

But he gives us an actual picture of like a plant and how like plant life works as a way to understand this. All right. I want to introduce something. This is going to be a little deep. but I think it's needed here. It's very confusing, especially for a new Christian, to understand in the English language,

we have one word for love. But in the Greek language, there's four. Are y'all familiar with that? Yeah, we're very familiar. So you got Agape, which is, I guess if you were going to rank them, would be the best because it's... It's to use the most in the New Testament.

It's the... It's the idea of sacrificial love. Unconditional. Unconditional. Selfless. All right. So then you have Palaia. Yeah, Phalaia, which is the word used here in John 12.

Because this is a riddle that Jesus uses. The man who loves his life will lose it. So immediately, I realize in the context of him saying, him predicting his death because he says if a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies or remains only a single seed but if it dies it produces many seeds

so he's like this is a good thing that I'm fixed to die so then he makes that applicable to us when he says the man who loves his life will lose it kind of like we died with Christ I immediately start thinking

oh this is the death in Christ because of his death, which was what? Agape love. Right. And by the way, just to help your explanation, Jay's, if Agape is sacrificial love, if it's unconditional love, Philea would therefore be conditional love in the sense that this could be among family. In other words, you have your children, they're your children, therefore I love you,

different than I do somebody else. That's why we get the word brotherly love from here because it is conditional in the Philea sense. You love this life. You love this. And it doesn't negate. No, it's still a good word. The other two real quick. Eros is like romantic love.

Sensual, sexual. Yeah. And then Storge is familial love, like in the family. It's kind of like a mom looking at a toddler and not really having to say anything. But there's just, there's a love that is discussed. So the reason I'm bringing this up. So like in John 11, remember when we talked about this old ground bank. breaking thing. We have these, this, we've missed the love aspect of why Jesus came. So just to give

you, for instance, and the reason this becomes confusing, so like in John 11 verse 3, when it says, so the sister sent word to Jesus, Lord, the one you love is sick. Well, that's the brotherly love. But when he said in 11.5, Jesus love Martha and her sister and Lazarus, that's the Agape love. So I'm just saying that to say, I think that's one aspect. But I said all that. So when you say, whoever loves his life will lose it. So that's kind of that friendship that, what do we call it?

What was the Greek word for it? Philea. Yeah, Philea. Which is where they get Philadelphia in the city of brotherly love. But by the way, that's all. used in the negative when it says when Judas kissed Jesus with that word kiss you know what it is same word yeah it's an outward of I think that's fascinating he loved him but they didn't love him well you can you can fake it you know exactly I mean I think

that's really fascinating so so then the second part of the riddle which is why I said this is so confusing because hate has a different meaning in the Greek and the and the Hebrew, then what we think, when you think hate, and that's why people get confused, think about the Luke, where's that at 14, where it says, unless you hate your family, your brothers. Yeah, hate your family. Well, wait a minute. You're like, Jesus wants me to hate my family.

We translated that. The whole point in me is. Because hate has one meaning to us. Oh, and you know what it means? It's like rage. Yeah. So hate in. In Greek, I pulled this up and look, this is not Bible.

So here's what I wanted to do. So it has a different meaning. And basically, you can Google this, but it is to reject, avoid. That's how it is translated. But in context of what we're reading, whoever hates his life in this world, we'll keep it for eternal life,

which kind of goes in with that suicide theme because people, they hate their life, so they want to kill themselves, you know? Well, you know he's not talking about that because he's all about life. We'll keep it for eternal life. So what's he talking about? So we want to avoid it.

We want to reject it. What I found fascinating about this, very fascinating. read this out of a book. I just went down the Greek and Hebrew rabbit holes for trying to define this, because I think when people read verses like in Romans 9, where it says, where God says, Jacob I loved and Esau I hated, people are like, what? And so then all kind of poor doctrines come from that, because they're like, they're using the English definition of hate and said, well, God must have hated him from the start. Missed the whole point.

They miss what the word means. And so I want to read this. This is fascinating. So in the Hebrew language, I'm going to put my Zach hat on, where their language developed was from something called pictographic meaning. So it's like the original Hebrew language came from a language that used pictures to depict a meaning. And so I want to read this to you. You'll find this fascinating.

And this is an AI overview, so, but if you just Google it from a religious standpoint, because I did, because I didn't want to be giving you something and AI get it wrong. All scholars agree with what I'm fixed to read. So the Hebrew word often translated as hate is sane, and it tells you how to pronounce it. However, the ancient pictographic meaning of the word differs from the modern English understanding of hate, which is what we're talking about, which typically implies emotional fury or rage. That's what we think of and hate.

In biblical Hebrew, saying often means to reject, avoid, or turn away from rather than to desire harm upon someone. So here's the point. Don't get lost in my reading. this next paragraph. The ancient pictographic letters for hate saying came from a thorn and a seed. So that was the picture that produced the Hebrew word for it.

Well, think about that. I mean, when I read that, I thought, wait a minute, there's something here. It's unfortunate that no scholar, has done a deep dive that I could find about this. Because what is the context of this? Jesus said, unless a kernel, a seed of wheat. Well, now in the definition of hate from the Hebrew,

the foundation of the language, you have a picture of a seed with thorns on it. Well, you know what you want to do to that? Avoid it. Because it has thorns all over. You don't want to reach down and grab it and plant it because it has thorns on it. So that is the picture of it.

But I want to keep reading. Just as one turns to avoid being pricked by a thorn implies turning away from someone or something. For example, when the Bible states that God hated Esau, it doesn't necessarily mean that God desired Esau's destruction. Instead, it signifies that God did not choose Esau, but rather Jacob. Similarly, when Jesus instructs his disciples to hate their families, those are Luke 14, it means that they should choose.

use him over their families if necessitates distancing themselves from them. So I want to read this last paragraph. Therefore, the picture image associated with the Hebrew word hate saying can be visualized as a thorn and a seed representing the idea of turning away or rejecting something. The visual helps to understand that the biblical Hebrew concept of hate is more about distance and avoidance than about destructive anger. Because... I'd like to insert something here on the Romans 9 passage here.

I think it'll serve the point well. What you see in Romans 9 is that he's not even talking about the individuals of Jacob and Esau. So when he quotes that, he's quoting Malachi chapter 1, verse 2 and 3, where it says, Jacob I've loved, Esau, I've hated. But if you read the whole prophecy from Malachi, he's clearly talking about eschatology. He's clearly talking about the nation of Israel. And then that's how you would understand Jacob. Jacob is Israel.

And then Esau is Edom. And we also know that because he says before the two were born and had done anything good or bad, it was written, the older will serve the younger. Jacob loved Esau. I hate it. Well, the older will serve the younger is a quote from Genesis 25. And it says, and the actual quote in the Old Testament is when he says two nations are in your womb. Two peoples are in your womb.

So it's about nations, Edom and Israel. And Edom really is representative of everybody. Yeah, so then when you go back and if you go do a proper exegesis of the Old Testament to understand the nation of Edom versus the nation of Israel, you actually see that God did just that. he withdrew from Edom. But there were some reasons behind that, by the way. But the whole purpose of it, the whole purpose of Romans 9, by the way,

is that God is bringing the nations back in. And you see that even in Malachi, the quote that Jacob loved, Esau of hated, listen to this. And in the same exact chapter, just a few verses down, it says, for from the rising of the sun to its setting, my name will be great

among the nations in every place, incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering for my name will be great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. So when he says, Jacob, I love, Esau, I've hated. He tells you what his goal in that is in verse five, just two verses later, when he says, your eyes shall see this, and you shall say, great is the Lord beyond the borders of Israel. And so I think to your point, Jay, it's like when he says he hated Esau, He's just, he's pointing to what he's ultimately doing.

He's withdrawing from Edom. He's elevating Israel to bring the gospel to the nations eventually. But that is the ultimate point. Yeah, because it brings forth the son. Yeah. Well, you're going to see the same thing I started to go here, but it's the next chapter in John 13. When he gets to Judas, you see the same concept.

So remind me when we get there, because he's like he knew from the beginning which one was going to, to betray him. And he said, but God has given me these and he uses the word I chose them. But then later on in predicting Judas betraying him, he's like, because he rejected me. So it's like, well, which is it? Did he reject you because you didn't choose him or did he not be chosen because of his rejection? So I think when you understand the definition of hate and love and the different aspects that's being used in love because John 13 starts off with the agape love.

But we'll get to that. What I wanted to say was the whole key to this, what I thought was fascinating about the thorns and the seed. It made me go back to in creation where God gives them all the seed-bearing plant. Well, then when they send, Well, then the thorns came up. And I'm like, well, what did they put on Jesus' head when he was crucified? You know, what did his enemies put a crown of thorns, you know?

And it just really made me realize why he said this illustration about his death, where he said, unless a seed of wheat falls to the ground and dies, you know. Because he really is a seed. Look, when he makes it. Look, when he makes it practical, and he's like, unless you hate your life, well, understanding what he meant by that with this seedy thorn, you need to avoid that. I'm saving you from that.

I don't know. He really, in essence, becomes both of those for us. He becomes a seed and thorn. Well, think about Isaiah 6, that passage in Isaiah 6, which is quoted Isaiah 6 in this text, by the way. Oh, good point. Yeah. And if you read Isaiah 6, the passage of Isaiah 6,

is essentially we're about to go scorched earth. We're going to burn it down to the ground, and you're going to look out Israel, and there won't be a shrub, there won't be a tree. You won't, I mean, it will be burned to the ground, and all you will see is desolation. And the very end of it, it says, but there will be this one thing left remaining,

which is a stump, and out of that stump, there's a holy seed. And from that, that's where everything is going to, come from that holy seat. I think that's the idea of even the parable of sewer. It's like what kind of soil do you have to have to receive and produce the fruit, which is this is about fruit here. You're going to produce much to produce 30, 60, and 100 fold.

The kind of soil you need is scorched earth, soil, which is exactly where Blake got in that car when he slammed his head up against that steering wheel. And it was scorched earth. There was nothing left except for a holy. And that's where suicide comes in is when you get to that end and you don't recognize the stump where there's a holy seed, there's a sprout, there's Jesus, he's right there. But if you can turn your eyes to Jesus in that moment, that's where it begins. So you know the pictogram I got when you were reading that day, the description, Mayhall tree. I thought about, you know, Mayhaal produces, in our opinion, the best fruit for the best jelly in the world.

It's delicious. It's wonderful. It's a blessing. But it comes from a tree. It's the gnarliest, ugliest, thorn-ridden tree in the swamp. I mean, it's one you don't want to mess with. And yet it produces this. You think about both those in that that you see, one you try to avoid.

How many times have we tried to avoid the thorns on a mayhaw tree, and you're trying to pick up that fruit. And I've always thought, you know, I assume the Almighty was trying to provide that fruit for what goes through the swamp. And so he didn't want something crawling up there eating it for it got ready. But I thought here we come along, picking it up off the ground, avoiding the thorn but going for the seat. I mean, Al, I thought the same thing because it just made this paragraph come to life when I went through that Hebrew structure of that word. I was like, okay, it makes sense.

And what do we turn the fruit into something that we think is the best thing in life, which is. And then we share it everybody we know. Yeah. Transformation. Even Shane and Shane show up with it. Although theirs was cut with cranberry Jews. Now, that's an imposter. What they did was...

It's the Judas. No, it's the Judas' kiss. It's love that's... They need to repent for that. But I wanted to go down a rabbit hole about the world, but we can get to that later. Because when it says this part, because that's another tricky word in the Bible, is the word world. Because that means a lot of different things. lot of different things, so we'll do that at a later date.

But I did want to bring this one thing up. I think we can only take one rabbit hole per podcast by the text. I mean, this is right in the text, though. I mean, it is. Well, this is the hate thing again. So you know what it made me realize is a verse that I've read hundreds of times, and thought, huh. And it's the, in Proverbs 6, 16 through 19, there are seven things.

that God hates. Well, I've always thought, well, I'm pretty sure he hates more than seven. Why these seven? Yeah. But it makes sense when you realize the word what it really means to avoid and reject and why. But look, in the vein

of what it's transformed into, just like he did. He gave you two, the little riddle is two things that happen. And, you know, one, to avoid and one to embrace and basically love and hate. So I just wanted to read it. It says there are seven things that God hates. A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,

a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift to evil, a false witness who lies, and one, here's why I wanted to read this, one who sows discord among brothers. You have that little seed analogy. It's not by accident now because I realize what the word hate means. That's why he said that. So it's the seeds you sow. But just think about those seven things.

I mean, you can just start picking them off one by one. This refers to a proud look. This refers to arrogance, hardiness, placing oneself above others and even God. That's thorny. Yeah. It's a relationship killer, you know, a lying tongue. Same thing. It's how it affects all around relationship.

Look, hands that shed innocent blood. Blood, this is a direct violation of, you know, not only of God being about life, but it refers, you know, you're taking the life. Well, that's the ultimate relationship. I got, I have to insert this because this is, this is gold. This is what I'm about to say is gold. Here a goal, he says. Here goal, because I want to take it back to the very beginning,

because here's how the thing started. And once you just read, was incredible. Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone. If you're going to understand this passage, you've got to understand what that means. Because the next question is, why,

what's wrong being alone? Well, then now you've got to turn it back to Genesis 2. Chapter 2. It is not good for man to be alone. So that's it. I mean, like, you think, why, why, what's going on here? What we're dying to, what we're hating is a self-centered, self-centric, humanistic, I'm hating being alone. And what I'm saying, that, that, I hate, when I hate my own life, what I'm hating is aloneness. I want to avoid loneliness. And instead, I want to be connected with someone else. Why? Because I was made in the image of a truant. And, that, I was made in the image of a, You and God who is not one person, but three persons. The reason why it's not good for man to be alone is because God's not alone. In his very nature, that's why when you say, when you get back to the love part of all this,

what do you mean? What does love even mean? Love by its very definition requires more than one person. You have to have a lover, and you have to have one that is beloved. And then also, even beyond that, there has to be an expression of that consummation of love, which is to try, that is God. So first John 4th, God is love. And so the reason why we're dying to self is we're dying to the things that would isolate us

that would prevent us from living in our true undefiled nature, which is relational. So it's amazing because Blake talked about that moment where he realized he hated his life and he got a call from some person named Kyle saying what? You're not alone. when Chad Robesho sat here and told us that he was sitting in a safe room with a gun drawn and pictures spread around him, he got a knock on the door from his wife whom he was separated from him to realize what? I'm not alone. I'm not alone.

And then they both turned to Christ, which is amazing. And by the way, that's the fruit. How does fruit come? How does fruit come from the Holy Spirit? What does that mean? What is that? Well, God's got to move in. And if God lives in me, I'm never, ever, ever alone.

and that's where the fruit comes from. We don't produce it. He produces it by living and being in the... Jay, that was good. I told you this rabbit hole was epic. That was good. I don't care who you are. If you don't like that,

I think it helps you understand when you read the word love and hate. It gives you a better understanding and know what we're talking about. Good. Good stuff. All right. We'll see you next time. Unashame.

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