Unashamed with the Robertson Family - Ep 1174 | Jase Is Named the Robertson Tattletale & Joseph’s Coat of Many Colors Steals the Show

Episode Date: September 26, 2025

Al and Zach kick things off by playfully debating the biggest Robertson “tattletale,” with Jase catching most of the friendly fire. Christian Huff admits he’s not a fighter, and John Luke says he might be able to take his younger, much bigger brother, Will. The guys trace Joseph’s story, from the colorful coat that annoyed his eleven brothers to the Egypt years. John Luke reflects on Joseph’s naïveté throughout his journey, from being sold into slavery as revenge to becoming one of the most powerful men in Egypt. Zach illustrates how a family feud becomes a family rescue and how this line ultimately sets the stage for Jesus, the Lion of Judah. In this episode: Genesis 1, verse 28; Genesis 9, verse 1; Genesis 37–50; Genesis 42; Genesis 45, verses 3–7; Exodus 1, verses 1–7; Revelation 5, verses 1–6 Today's conversation is about lesson 6 of The Genesis Story: Reading Biblical Narratives taught by Hillsdale Professor Justin Jackson. Take the course with us at no cost to you! Sign up at http://unashamedforhillsdale.com/ More about The Genesis Story: Genesis is a book of fundamental importance for the Jewish and Christian faiths and has exerted a profound influence on Western Civilization. In addition to being a great religious text, it is also a literary masterpiece.  This free online course explores some of the work’s major narrative themes, including the complex relationship between God and man, the consequences of a rupture in that relationship, and the path towards reconciliation. Check out At Home with Phil Robertson, nearly 800 episodes of Phil's unfiltered wisdom, humor, and biblical truth, available for free for the first time! Get it on Apple, Spotify, Amazon, and anywhere you listen to podcasts! https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/at-home-with-phil-robertson/id1835224621 Listen to Not Yet Now with Zach Dasher on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or anywhere you get podcasts. Chapters: 00:00–12:00 Snitches Get…Sold Into Slavery 12:01–20:38 The Violent Motivation of Joseph’s Brothers 20:39–31:54 Joseph Confronts His Family 31:55–42:30 Judah Makes The Right Choice 42:31–52:10 Generations of Family Are Restored — Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I am unashamed. What about you? I mean, as a kid, I know what sibling rivalry is. Did you guys have that with your siblings? I know you did, because I've watched y'all fight like cats and dogs. Did you guys have, like, fights with your siblings? Are we all pretty? Yeah, all the time. None like, I think, what y'all had, the more violent fist fights. But we definitely went out of a couple times.

It was like us without all the violence. The rest of the wrestling. Well, I mean, we were ever like, you know, was it you that Willie shoved rocks in your mouth? That was Gimber. Gimber. But I experienced his abuse. Yeah, we just talked to his brother into eating a plug of tobacco by telling him it was a brownie. Yeah.

So we were more, you know, like we would wrestle and. It was more civilized. More civilized wrestling. It was not like. Civilized. There was ever blows. Yeah. No, no, no, no.

You all both are big boys. They kind of got dangerous. Who, like, Jace through a, I can't remember what Jays threw a, uh, something. I can't remember what that story was, but, uh, yeah, it was a bunch of physical stuff, but never like any, like, violent, you know. One time I took a, we were, we were in the living room and I had a shotgun shell. That's what it was, it's the shotgun show. I did it, too Jace.

And so it's a full shotgun shell. They're heavy, you know, brass on one end. Oh, yeah. It's full of lead. Yeah. And I just lobbed it across the room. Now, I wasn't necessarily going for a headshot. I was just going for a body blow,

but Jay's moved at just the right time, and it just hit him square in the top of the head. It busted his head off? Oh, yeah, yeah. It was a bloody mess. Yeah. And, I mean, I realized in the moment, I shouldn't have done, that was probably a bit harsh.

So, Dad, you know, he's thumping me or give me a head swat or whatever. And I just thought that really describes our childhood. I mean, Jay's just sitting there. But you all had some knocked down dragouts, too, right? There was a lot of broken bones. I remember, like, I kind of remember Willie and Jace getting in a bunch of fights. They fought the most.

And Willie always losing the fight. I was sort of the Macavillion, like I was the puppet master, you know, directing all the... Well, we talked about the pattern of sin, and so I think the way that worked, my experience of that was I would come in as a cousin, and then Willie was mainly the torment, my tormentor, but it's caused hurt people, hurt people, right? Yeah. I said your dad. He had someone before Jeff came on. Your dad had trauma issues. Right.

Yeah, because he was the youngest up until for a while. Yeah. But y'all probably didn't have that because of your mom's influence and the other side. Because the Howard's a very congeny. No, we didn't really have that. I think because it's just how, like, relaxed my mom is. So she kind of, like, smoothed that out. And because I just, I had sisters close my age.

So it wasn't, like, a rivalry kind of thing. Like, Will was so much younger than me that it wasn't really a thing. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I was. Well, me and Grant, we had a little bit of a rivalry, but I was six years old or so. I was physically dominant. Mm-hmm. But I would, like, just ruthlessly, like, pick on him.

Yeah. And I mean, I did all kinds of things until he turned 19. And I was, like, 27. I was married. He came in to visit. And he had enough. Well, he's like, we started, we're talking. He started, like, wrestling with me.

And I'm like, I'm just going to wrap this kid up, like, I've always done. And I was like, oh. I think the testosterone finally happened in his life and I was like I could not subdue him and it was like then I was like okay

we're done we're in dumb now we're done no more of that but the sibling rivalry is a real thing I'm right at that point with Will that I'm sizing them up I'm like

I don't know I wouldn't know she'll take him anymore like I mean I know him faster but he's got there's a lot more power behind him he caught you just wrong. I know. If he catches me,

I think I'm done. Do you think if Will sat on you, do you think you could get up or do you think you would I don't see, that's what I'm saying. I think, I think on level ground, I think I'm faster. It can avoid that if he catches me, it gets me down. You can't grapple. We can't grapple.

If it goes to the ground, I'm screwed. Well, you've got a little jiu-jitsu with his. Yes, it was quite interesting. I don't love the grappling. I respect it, but it's not my... How much does strength overcome? Not as much as you would think.

So much of it more is technique than I would have realized. Plus, in judicious, you get... If you go so hard, so quickly, you just get gassed. Yeah. And, I mean, I'm in good shape. And cardio, I'm in pretty good shape. But when you're wrestling, grown men, and you're not withholding anything,

after about two or three minutes, you just get fatigued. You know you're in good company when you have to stop the conversation to get in the conversation. But we're back here every Friday for Unashamed Academy Powered by Hillsdale College. We love it. You guys are going to get a lot out of it. We're in the book of Genesis. We're in their study of Genesis, which are at the very end of it now.

And that actually went really quick. We're in Genesis chapter 37 to 50, which is the last portion of the text with Joseph. We're going to get into that today. Here's what you can do that. If you haven't signed up yet, we want you to take this. course with us. So not just listen to the podcast, but also I actually listen to the actual lecture that Hillsdale's putting on.

It's free. You can go to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com. Totally free to you because their generous donors have made it possible. All their courses are free. I think 4 million people have taken these courses. Yeah. Now 4 million and 4 because we're taking them. Exactly.

I'm a freshly minted graduate of the course, which my Hillsdale College certificate says right there. The Genesis store. This is what a printer can do. You should get it framed and put it on the wall. I'll put it on the wall with my scores of other things I've done. Well, I have the wall of Hillsdale accomplishments says we knock these courses out. We have a lot of these by the end of it.

We have a lot of them. I'd like to go through all of them if we, I hope we can, you know. Well, tell folks about that, yeah, give us what you think we are to do next, those that are taking the course with us. Well, if you listen to the last episode, we kind of passive aggressively, aggressively, passively, aggressively, push for Exodus. So we're going to let you guys decide

as long as it's Exodus. We still haven't decided. We don't decide. Yeah, seriously. We care what you think, but we still want to do it. Because, I mean, at some point, C.S. Louis, I love his stuff. We've got to maybe do something there.

Dante's Inferno. Dante's Inferno would be amazing. And I even like the, you know, political stuff and the Constitution and some of the more modern stuff would be a cool. The federal. They have the federal papers and stuff like that.

But that one would be a blast, yeah. Yeah, so I'm up for that, too. We're open. I was just being sarcastic. You would not be over that. Okay, so he... I would prefer the Bible. Okay, well, you can go check it out.

Unashame for Hillsdale.com. Sign up for this one. The courses are 30 to 20 to 30 minutes long. So remember a little bit longer. I don't think anything's ever 40 minutes, though. They're all under 40, and they're all on video, so you can take them whenever you want, wherever you want. And so right now we are in the story of Joseph.

Which, by the way, Lesson 6 was 39 minutes. That's right. Because it's the most chapters in Genesis, I thought that was appropriate. Well, you made that point in the last podcast as we ended it. This is the largest chunk of Genesis is this one story. There's a lot of neat and significance in this part of the story. Just to kind of give back up just a little bit, you know, God creates Saddam and the,

we went through kind of the whole creation order. So the way the courses divide up, it's like the pivotal moments in the book. It doesn't hit everything. The course doesn't. But it hits these pivotal moments that help us understand kind of the full narrative of where we're headed. Get to the Tower of Babel and then the creation of nations that come out of Babel. Israel being one of those nations that God pulls out that portion for himself. That's God's chosen people.

He made the promise to Abram. I'm going to give you descendants that are like the stars in the sky. Look up in the sky. Try to count all the stars. Abrams like, can't do it. That's right, you can't do it. And that's how many grandkids are going to give you. And then they try to circumvent the promise.

Not circumvent the promise. They try to, what would be the word? They try to enable, they try to help God to fill his promise with this scheme, with Hagar. And Sarah brings Hagar and says, like, Hagar to be the wife. They have a child named Ishmael. God's like, nope, that's not what I told you to do. God's faithful. He provides Isaac as the lineage, as the offspring.

And then he says, all right, sacrifice. the one child that you do have that I told you I was going to give you the grandkids through, which creates quite the dilemma if you're thinking about how to have grandkids, but Abraham is faithful and he goes to sacrifice Isaac, but God provides a substitutionary sacrifice in the form of a ram, and then Isaac does have children, and those two children are Jacob and Esau, and now we've talked about that in the last podcast,

and now we're on to Jacob, and now Jacob is going to have his own and the edge in his own sons. He has 12 sons, which later in our storyline will become the 12 tribes of Israel will be named after. It's actually 13 because there's two sons, but that's the whole other thing.

So what happens is this, and we didn't bring this up, and I was saying about when you were kind of giving the overview, Zach, that we've been talking a lot about rivalry, which has kind of been a theme, I think, to all of these stories of these early patriarchs.

But, you know, that's almost like that's a carryover from the curse, of the very first family, because you remember the first time we see vengeance and violence was over brother rivalry with Canaan Abel, which he didn't talk about that

in the lecture of that study, but really that's where it starts, right? Because one is making a sacrifice and the other was like, I don't like that sacrifice, and so think about he winds up killing his brother over what he was offering to God because of jealousy.

And so it's almost like that early curse that comes about because of sin. is sort of a thread line through all of this rivalry stuff about it's got to be my way, there's jealousy, and it may come out in the wife, it may come out in me, it comes out in someone else. And I don't know about y'all, but I don't want to rank sin, but jealousy is the one to me that in a family relationship and in a family setting is the most destructive. It's one of the hardest things to be. Oh, I agree. It's jealousy. Because it's like, what are you going to do with it? Like, it's something is

actual and it's real and at the same time what am i got what what can i do to fix that right because you're jealous of what i have or what i did so our story then just to advance where we're headed is now we have 12 sons and favoritism is all over the place uh some reminder uh go to unashamed for hillsdale dot com this is a free course that we have taken and it's very very good so wouldn't you to take it with us. This is about 12 sons and favoritism is all over the place. And we know that from the previous story. If you've been following us, you know that, you know Jacob had the favorite wife,

who then had the favorite sons. And they just happened to be the youngest. And so all this is going on throughout the process of their growing up. And it's really amazing because when we come into Genesis 37, which Dr. Jackson does, all of a sudden, Joseph's just 17 years old. So we don't get any like other background, you know, later, a little bit later, the next chapter we learn a little bit about Judah with some of his issues. But we just get this, okay, now they're all grown for the most part because he's one of the younger too. Right.

Which would mean Benjamin's even younger than 17. And we see him emerge as some sort of uniquely gifted kid. And, you know, it all depends on your take, how you read this. I mean, and he brings that out. was he arrogant or was he ignorant? I don't think that's the words you use, but that's the first question. Right.

In other words, did he know he was under his brother's skin? Or was he just like saying, dudes? I had this dream, and you got to hear it, you know. Everybody was bowing down. And then it's like, wait a minute, you're a little punk. You know, and then the other thing was,

unfortunately for him, and Dr. Jackson brings us out, he was kind of like the spy called upon by Jacob to keep an eye on the brothers which if you're if you're already like got issues with your brothers

if you're the dedicated snitch yeah that's only going to make things worse right but if you're a loving father and I want you to hear this if you're a loving father you young guys need to know this you want a snitch

you need a snitch you got to be one there's got to be a snitch in my family but Fred is the snitch in my family but Fred Favorite Fred is the snitch. Favorite Fred the snitch.

Favorite Fred the snitch is the snitch. And when we went on vacation a few months back to 30A, your neck of the woods. That he loved so much. Don't get him started. Don't get him started on that. I felt bad about ripping the whole thing. I felt like your dad does development down there.

But anyways. So Fred. He's not ashamed about it. Yeah. So Fred has gone, he's 14 now. So he goes off and finds friends at the beach. So now the tables have turned and literally without me even asking for it, Max, who's in college, my married daughter, Layla, and her husband, Dawson,

who are married and on their own, they go and spy on him to report back to me. I was like, you got to have spies. We are just seeing this passage play out. On the beach at 30A. Yeah. And by the way, in our family, when I started my double secret lifestyle as a prodigal because I did all of it at home, Jace was the snitch in my family about me. The problem was I was such a good Jacob.

I was such a good deceiver that they didn't believe it. They didn't believe it. So it's really bad when you're the snitch. I got the wrong snitch. He didn't have the personality of a snitch because he did. He just wanted him to be wrong. And so then he got super angry and it took him years to get over it, both of me and my parents, because they wouldn't believe him.

And I admit he was telling the truth. But I would beat him up for being a snitch. So he was getting beaten for telling the truth. And no one believed it. He didn't even get the favoritism. He's a even for the favor. Which now you understand Chase's personality. Does that not help out?

A little bit. Yeah. That is funny. Yeah. If I take on Joseph, after reading the chorus and reading through it again, it's more like socially awkward. Like he doesn't really,

it doesn't seem to me like he knows really what's going on in any circumstance. Like he doesn't really know how the brothers are going to react. He gets in the situation with Pover's wife, which is like he didn't really seem to know what was going to happen until he got in there. With the dreams later and with Potipher, he's kind of just doing his thing,

experiencing this and this stuff keeps happening all the way up until the end where he has his brothers come in and he doesn't know what to do in that situation the entire time that's a good point and i hadn't thought about that that the his negativity really is kind of out front with him yeah and and he typically does does what he thinks is the right thing to do right it's not everything about the consequences right it's not like that's a good point not intelligent it's just like he doesn't really know how other people are perceiving him. Yeah. What's the term now?

Neurodivergent? Yeah. Maybe it's like a, yeah. I don't know. I feel like with his coat, I feel like he, I feel like there was maybe a little bit of that younger brother kind of an annoyance that maybe he knew that that was probably going to get under their skin. I mean, that's kind of a pretty ostentatious like display, a coat of many colors to say

that you're my face. And then you're not having to work. Yeah. And then you're going to report back and then you're speaking illy of them, which is what it says. And then, hey, I had this dream and you were all bowing down to me. So I feel like there's probably a little bit of that. So that was the take that Dr. Jackson talked about is that he, Joseph didn't say that they, the interpretation from Joseph wasn't that they were bowing down.

The brothers made that interpretation. Joseph didn't say. Because he didn't really understand what it was. He didn't understand what it was. It was the brothers who said, oh, we're bowing down. But it was actually a correct interpretation. It was correct. It was correct, but it wasn't Joseph who made that interpretation at the beginning.

And then Dr. Jackson makes the point, he doesn't realize it to the very end of the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I always thought when I've taught this before, especially to kids or at camp, I always said that this was Joseph's letter jacket of the moment. You all remember, I don't know if letter jackets are any of the thing anymore, but when I was in high school, that was the big deal. If you had the letter, and the more like,

patches on there and pins, the bigger deal you were. And so, you know, and then you wouldn't wear them. You'd give them to your girlfriend to wear it, you know, to say, hey, not only am I a big deal, but look, she's wearing my jacket. Yeah. And so I always made that link like you did that there was something about the jacket. You know, there was something about saying, you know, hey guys, you know, just not me anything here, but I'm wearing the, it's like puffing the out. Exactly. Shrugging the shoulder.

And I could be wrong. It may, it may. Pop in the collar. It may totally have nothing to do with it. You think you popped the collar? I think he is a collar popper. I just, you know, he just, he seems like he fits into that narrative to me. But, but I love what John Luce says.

He's convincing me that maybe in his nativity, he really didn't know how he was just irritating everybody raw, you know, in the moment. Which has a way of irritating you more if the person's actually naive. Yeah. And they're like, they're the favorite and they're their best and they don't even know it. And they don't, yeah. Oh, that's even worse. With the jacket thing and him getting sold,

like it's kind of like one way or the other, when his brothers called him out to wherever he was going and he had the jacket on, and he put that jacket on, he had to know, these guys hate me. I know this is irritating to them, but I'm going to wear this jacket

to meet them out in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, he's just skipping through the theater. I know, he's like, oh, I'm about that, like, I'm putting this on. Or he's like, oh, this is just my jacket. my dad gave me, this is cool. Like, this is, like, just a nice thing I have.

They asked me to go meet them by this hole out in the woods. Like, okay, yeah, let's see what happens here. See how this turns out, what can go wrong? Like, he's like, yeah, what could go wrong? My brothers, yeah, they like me. I don't think he ever imagined that his brothers would actively talk about killing him. Right. I mean, I don't know that any of us ever would, that it would get to that place.

And that's where they were. I mean, they kind of came together that your loving brothers, became a mob because they were talking about violence. They were going to kill him. And then, of course, Dr. Jackson makes a big deal about Rubin,

who's the oldest, it sort of at first looks like, well, he's just the wise brother stepping in and basically saying, no, you know, we can't do this,

but he really is self-serving because he's trying to get back in good graces. I'd never seen that before. And he's right. I hadn't heard that either. So he had his own agenda as to why he was trying to like save this situation, which was interesting. So if you want to

hear more about this directly, go to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com to get the free course and so you can follow along with us. So it's really interesting how he sort of paints that narrative. And then Judah is the other brother that plays a pivotal role in this sort of discussion. And then later, when events begin to unfold once he's sold into slavery, that he has a repentance moment. that's a game changer too, which you brought up in the last podcast, which is interesting. I think what's happening with here

is that they're having this like collective discussion that they're entertaining out of their own jealousy, which to your point, it's a jealousy. I think there's something interesting about jealousy. You can't like contain it. I think we think, okay, I can entertain this jealousy in my heart and the sin.

But the truth is that kind of all, sin, you can't really maintain it and manage it. And I think that's the temptation that we think we can maintain this and control it, but it ends up having its way with you. And the end of that is always a death work. You know, what God's calling us to is the fruitful multiplication of life, Genesis 126, it's a life work. What Satan is calling us to is the end of life, a death work. And so he uses jealousy in this spot to kind of foster an imagination into brothers, man, we got We got to get rid of this guy. And in this case, it was talking about physically, literally they were talking about killing physical death.

But in most cases now, I see jealousy as the death of relationships. How many people do you know that won't talk to one another have been alienated for years? And it started because of jealousy. Either favoritism or something they felt like they were owed, they didn't get, or you got it. It's a hard one to confess, too. When's the last time you heard someone say, I'm really struggling with jealousy? You rarely of you. Yeah, of you.

I'm jealous of you. And I'm really, that's an awkward one to confess. Yeah, man, but it's sad because I think it's the root of all kind of issues. It was the root of the issue with Canaan Abel. He was jealous of Abel's offering, you know, and of his heart. It was like, man, I don't have that. And it made him angry. Well, and think about the brother's perspective of what they were about to do before they wind up selling him

into slavery, which is still super bad, obviously, right? But what they were willing to do through their own dad. Yeah. I mean, to let him think he was dead. Right. So even though they didn't kill him, the pain of that was still there. I mean, Jacob thought he was dead. He thought he was dead.

How do you guys think that they, like, they take Joseph so they don't kill him, instead they sell him into slavery? And on some level, I bet they were thinking, okay, we didn't kill our brother, but they did see their father just. like mourning and who by the way refused to be consoled what is that what's the word I'm looking for consoled yeah who refused to be consoled how do you think they they thought when they're looking at Jacob and he's just like no I'm not

I'm not going to be comforted I mean think about oh yeah they're probably like yeah that was too far I mean Jacob never gets over it never he's still even 20 years later when the whole when they go to Egypt, Jacob is still not over it, and that's the whole reason they did the next thing, which was go and get the sun and bring him back, because he's still in mourning. Yeah. And I'd say, I bet out of 10 brothers that some of them felt bad about it, and some of them said, see, that's why we did it.

Yeah. Well, Ruben wasn't even there when he was sold into slavery. Yeah. Because Ruben had led. He thought they really had killed. Yeah. Because he came back and he, the sister, and, yeah, Joseph wasn't in the cister. And then, yes, that's another kind of key detail that's interesting.

So Rubin actually wasn't there when Joseph was sold. You think, what do you think he thought? Because that was Jude's idea, right? Wasn't he the one that said less adamant's slavery? Yeah. What she probably thought was like a compromise. It's a compromise. Yeah, we're not going to kill him, you know.

We don't kill him, but he also gets rid of him. Yeah. One of my favorite points, and this wasn't in this study, but because I've never thought about this. It's really interesting if you think about it. So, because you're reading the story, right? And there are things that you know that at the time Joseph doesn't know. So if you were to guess, what is something that we know that at this point, Joseph doesn't know?

At this point in the story? At this point in the story. So what do you know as the reader that Joseph doesn't know? Are you talking about the point at which he's cast into slavery? Mm-hmm. That he's going to be second in the command of Egypt. Well, Joseph doesn't know that his father's... thinks he was sold in the slavery.

Joseph thinks that Jacob thinks he was killed. So the whole time Joseph is in Egypt, he's wondering why his father's never came to look for him. But it's because his father thinks he's dead. Oh, yeah, he doesn't know that. He doesn't know that. So you're reading this thing and like, oh, Jacob thinks Joseph is dead,

but Joseph is thinking, I'm just sold into slavery. Because Joseph does not know they came back and told him that he was killed and gave him the coat. So it was interesting. So when they come later in Genesis 42, they make the point that our youngest brother is dead. It kind of clicks for him that he's like, this whole time, my dad has thought I've died,

but he doesn't know. That's a good point. It's an interesting point because I think about the movie Taken, which is such a good movie. Remember when Liam Neeson tells her you're about to be taken, but I will find you. I will come. I will find you.

I will find you. And I have a certain set of skills. And then remember, I love this thing when he comes in and she's a bad guy and she says, you came and he says, I told you I would. And it's just like that idea we would expect as a teenager,

dad's coming. Yeah, he's going to come find me in Egypt. But Jacob thinks he's dead, so why would he go look? That also explains because as Joseph gets higher up in Egypt, he could have sent word at any time to his father.

father and said, hey, I'm here and I'm alive, but he never does that because he thinks his father never came and got him. Yeah. Which is why Pharaoh kind of became that father figure for it. Yeah. Because he thought his, he thought his father just, which because, because leading up to that, you've seen that with Jacob and Esau and then Ishmael, like, there had been times who were like, because I think there was kind of the correlation of like Joseph thought he was kind of like Ishmael of like he was cast it out. Like he was, he thought he was Esau. He was, you know, kind of the one that didn't receive the blessing, which is... Well, and even if, because we were kind of debating over how much we think Joseph knew as a teenager,

one of the things you can say safely about Joseph, because we're going to watch through the text that Dr. Jackson couldn't deal with because he went up to the end is sort of his character slice in chapter 39, chapter 40, you know, and 41. So this is from when he was 13, this is all these years later, so now he's 30 years old. So you're talking about 12 years of development of this young man and now into a man, a teenager into a man. And every time we see his character on display, it's pretty good. I mean, he gets in the first situation. He's in slavery.

He's in this man's house. There's something about him. He's so impressed with that as a teenager, he turns everything over to it. Right. So obviously he's got some skill set. And then, of course, his wife gets after this guy. And look, I would imagine in this day and age, if he's a young man, and said he was well-built and handsome, like Christian.

And so it's like, you know, they would just think, well, that's part of my, I'm a slave. I mean, I'm being told what to do. The wife says I have to sleep with her. You know, it's a tough job, but somebody's got to do it. And so, but he does it. He's like, no, how could I do such a thing as sin against God? So he has some bit of, he has this compass inside of him that there's something greater. He wouldn't have said that.

And he even told her, he said, your husband's put me in charge of everything. But I'm not in charge of you. And I'm not going to do that. Which we didn't get into, Dr. Jackson doesn't get into this portion of the story. Right, right. But it is interesting, as you were saying that. I was thinking of Joseph's narrative. It follows an arc that is like literally the arc.

the Bible. It's the arc of Genesis where you have creation. Everything is good. So in Joseph's story, he's the favorite son. Everything is good. He's got the coat of many colors. And you have the fall, you know, Genesis, a three, or man falls. They eat from the tree of the garden. And then they're, in the fall in Joseph's story is being sold into slavery. And then obviously the part of the slavery when he's in Egypt under Pharaoh. Then there's the redemption. right that happens which is him being put up in the second command of the entire country and then there's the restoration that happens with the brothers and so you see and then there's another one called consummation that comes at the end but you think about interpreting the bible through

creation fall redemption restoration consummation and or another word for that's glorification but that you're seeing that in joseph's story joseph's story really here we see four parts of it we see the we see the good he's everything's good he's favorite Favorite Joseph, just like favorite Fred. He gets sold into slavery, and then he winds up in Egypt's second in command, which is where a lot of the chunk of this lecture led up into. And I found that to be pretty fascinating where Dr. Jackson really pulls out the literary repetition of what Joseph is doing and what was done to him is very similar. but it has all these has some very small

but very important distinctions. By the way, if you want to check that out, go to Unashamefor Hillsdale.com and you guys can sign up for free and listen to the course. Take it with us. And you can kind of hear his points on that. But I don't know, did that kind of overlay

resonate with any of you guys as well? Oh, yeah, it was the way he was correlating like when the brother showed up and you brought it up earlier with the spies and how he called them spies, kind of as a callback to that's what he used to do to them. And then I thought the birth order when they were eating the dinner, and he set them in the birth order and said that they marveled at him,

I thought that was a crazy kind of callback to that. Let's start with the first one. So the first one, yeah, I'll pack that again. Because what happened in the first time is that we talked about that, he was the spy. And then when they come to Egypt and he realizes who they are, he's like, oh my gosh, these are my brothers. like they realize who they who these are the people that put me into slavery they don't recognize him yet

right and so that's what he makes the accusation yes that's genesis 42 uh 42 i guess we can do eight says although joseph recognized his brothers they did not recognize him and he remembered the dreams that he had had about them many years before and he said to them you are spies you have come to see how vulnerable our land is or how vulnerable our land has become uh yes So he's, and then obviously they end up saying, you know, we've come to buy food, we're not spies, we are honest men. But I wonder if he was thinking about that kind of, you know, how he used to be kind of labeled us that with his brother. So I don't know if he was, but I think the Holy Spirit certainly was. I think that plays out where Joseph played the part of the innocent child who was the spy.

Now they're playing the part of the innocent child, but they're actually not so innocent. and they're not really spying, but he's accusing them of this, right? And so they're like, they're taking up his position in a weird, ironic way. And Dr. Jackson then makes a whole point about how from that narrative, it goes into all the brothers trading for the one and one trading for all the brothers. And there does seem a pattern. And you wonder about that. I don't know what do you all think about this, but, I mean, is Joseph just messing with him?

Because it's like all these things are happening and he's replayed. And look, this is happening over months of time. This isn't like this is like. I kind of feel like he's like not making it up on the fly, but I feel like. That's what I would. We put him in prison for three days. He what? He put him in prison for three days.

Yeah, I think he's dealing with it. I think he's like going back. Is he like going to decide whether he's going to like, am I going to do vichets or am I not? That's how I took it. Like he doesn't know what to do. Because of this socially awkward. He's socially awkward, and he doesn't want, he doesn't want to tell the brothers who he is.

He wants them to like realize it. And so he like, he starts with the putting it in the order. And he does the, like, everything he does gets like more convoluted. Like, he just starts to like giving me. Why was that a big deal? Think about it. Why was it a big deal that he put them in order? He put them in order and he's like, oh, they'll know.

I know because of the order. Who's missing at the end of the caboose down there? Right. He's like suddenly trying to get them to guess who he is, but then they don't get it. And so then he does the next thing, which I don't know. You think he left an empty chair down at the end? Oh, well, for sure.

And why does he like, so is any other brothers back home? Oh, yeah. Oh, well, we happen to have a younger brother. How'd you know that? Yeah. And then he gets to the point where he's like, oh, I got. He's like, okay, they're not figuring it out. I got it. I'm going to hold this one and send one back.

And then I'm going to put the cup in the thing. Like he's just... What if he left the open He's like, oh, I'll just sit here just for dinner with you. Yeah, that's totally

how I imagine it. Because at one point, he goes back and he cries and he comes back in. Like, he's like, I... He's an emotional right.

He is. He's like, I just want them to figure this out. I don't want to tell them. And I always thought, this is totally just me projecting, probably watching movies.

But if, you think, well, how would they not know him? Of course, a lot of years had gone by number one, and he's obviously grown into a man now. But the other thing is,

when you see the movies and they depict how the Egyptians were, you know, they shaved their heads, they got the eye makeup on. I mean, you could see where this guy looks like, you know, Ben Hur or something, or I don't know, what are these Egyptian people. And he would look totally different. So I could see how they would totally not recognize it. Because at this point, for sure.

You have to keep in mind that God has not revealed himself as Yahweh yet. So there's no like Yahweh, I am, there's no Torah. There's no law. Like, this is pre all of that. This is just God, he says later in Exodus that, I think I mentioned this in the previous episode, to your father's Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, I revealed myself as God Almighty, but not, I didn't tell him my name. So at this point, like, yeah, he could have fully assimilated into Egyptian culture.

Which I expect he did. Yeah, I mean, certainly he was fully assimilated into the culture. You know he was if he's in the ruling hierarchy. I got, got to be. He's second in charge. So in other words, everything Pharaoh looked like he's going to look like. Yeah. And even all that stint when he was in prison.

and was interpreting the dreams and wound up before Pharaoh. All that, I think, was immersing him into this culture, where when they saw him, they never doubted for a moment that this guy was fully Egyptian. And the Egyptians probably never inquired as to where he came from. I mean, there were people showing up in the kingdom from all over the place. I mean, so he could have been anywhere. So I definitely think that played a role in,

but y'all are right. He wanted them to know he knew something, and they couldn't figure out what it was. what's also possible too. Like, you know, like when you tell a lie, but you know it's not true, then over the course of years, you end up believing that that was actually what the truth was.

So you can just imagine if for 20 years, you know, they have this narrative that Joseph died. That's what they're telling Jacob. Then they actually believe. So they might not even have remembered that Joseph was in Egypt. Oh, yeah. That's what I'm saying.

You convince yourself of the truth, or you convince yourself that the lie is actually true and it's not. That's a good point. Yeah. When you were talking about the meal, I think this was pointed out that the birth order was,

like, obviously he got the birth order right. But if you look at the way that the meal was distributed eventually, when Benjamin was there, Benjamin got five times the portion. That was cool. I think that's two things that I see there. One, like this is like reminiscent of his

position when he was the youngest. Benjamin's the new Joseph. He's the new Joseph. And and then two, I think there's something there about the portion of God's favor, like who, like God's people, and I think the favorites of God are just God's the people who are the people of God. Yeah. Like God's chosen people like, right, the elect. And yes, we're, that the elect are going to have the favor of God on them. They're going to have that five times. Which I thought, It was interesting when you go back to the apostle Paul talks about, you use that language first for the Jew, then for the Gentile, and then that comes together in a kingdom.

You know, a kingdom, the prophet Daniel says, can't be shaken nor destroyed when the son of man comes. And I think that's what's, this is all precursor of that. And at the end of this, I'll make a summation that I think we'll bring that point up. But the restoration that we're going to see here is the catalyst for that. because restoration hasn't happened yet to this moment. There's a lot of back and forth, a lot of Joseph trying to almost pull them,

seems to be trying to pull the repentance out of them, to pull the confession out of them. But at this point, they still haven't, you know, admitted that Joseph is even in the picture. And they didn't even want to tell him Benjamin was in the picture, much less Joseph. And so... Well, didn't you think it was interesting, too,

that Jacob, who we went through the whole last podcast, talking about having a name change, not being a deceiver anymore. And then when it comes down to it, when they've kept Simeon, and he sent them all back, and he says, you have to bring Benjamin back. You have to bring this youngest one.

I need to talk and see him. And Jacob said, why did you even tell him there was a younger brother? In other words, he went back to the old roots, right? Yeah. It's like, why did you have to say that? You know, they didn't even know this. Don't you know how we scheme around here?

Exactly. Don't you know that's where we are? And so it's really interesting because then when you go back, you realize that out of desperation, they had to go back. They're all starving to death. There's a huge famine. So out of desperation, even our deceit won't work, which is very powerful. So if you want to watch this with us, go to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com to sign up for this free course.

You're going to love it. We have all enjoyed it, as you can tell, because we're excited about talking about it. So I love, Al, talking a little bit about how we wind up at this place with where Judah kind of does come in and has a moment. But we kind of, there's a lot of back and forth jockey. You know, you mentioned that at the end of the last podcast. And, you know, there's always something in every one of these lectures. I don't know about y'all, but, you know, some things out here I knew, and then some things made me think. And then some things are like, wow, that's a wow thing.

And this is one of those. I'd never really put the Judah component as strongly into it as Dr. Jackson did, especially, I always wondered, it's kind of weird that Genesis 38 is stuck right in the middle of that with the Judah Tamar story, but now I get it. So they had the opportunity. So Benjamin does go back, and now it's like, oh, no, what's going to happen here? And so Dr. Jackson makes the point that they could have been done with him. They could have just all went back home and said, well, they kept him, you know,

your favorite son's the thief. That point was so interesting. Yeah, they could have just bought it at face value and said, you know what, he's a thief. He's, and now he's... They had a better excuse the second time around than they did the first time. And they did the first time.

Because now it's like, well, we don't know what happened to Joseph's still a lie. Because they don't, truthfully, they don't know that it was planted. I mean, they could have. No, they don't. They think he took it. Yeah. They really do. Yeah.

And so they had the opportunity then to continue. the deceitful way they've done this whole thing and to get rid of the second Joseph like they did the first. And he brings it. I'd never thought about this. But instead, Judah says no. Utah says, somebody's got to break this curse. And it's very interesting that he becomes, and all the way through the rest of the history of Israel and then into the line of Jesus, that idea that repentance is what changes they.

And it's going to change their existence as well. So he just says no. And he finally just tells Joseph the truth about everything, which then leads to this moment where Joseph finally does reveal himself. Because he saw the cycle was broken. Exactly. Yeah. And I had never seen that before that took the course.

I thought that same thing, that cycle and that Judah realized what was going on. Maybe not necessarily that Joseph was who he was. But he realized we've been in this situation before and the first time I made the wrong choice. This time I'm going to make a different choice. And he explained on that idea because it really is, it's not only that Judah was being self-sacrificial and that he was offering himself up to slavery, which he did. So, because Dr. Jackson talked about, he said, so Judah offered himself up to slavery for the love of his father because of how much he truly loved Jacob.

Because probably thinking back to how unconsolable he was. was after Joseph. But it was also with the notion of knowing that his father loves Benjamin more than him. So you're self-sacrificially giving yourself up to slavery because of the love you have for your father, yet while knowing he loves his other son more than you, which is like there's so many nuances there that are fascinating that he really broke down. And I couldn't have to think about the Jesus narrative of coming to earth to die for all of of humanity because God loved humanity so much of which Jesus was a part of creating that he would send a part of himself here to become a human being and to die for.

I mean, it just, it spoke straight to me. I was like, that's exactly. Well, there's a, there's a seed here. There's a seed right here in this text with Judah and his repentance and his essentially coming to honesty and a true repentance and confess. to Joseph for what happened. And that's the moment, by the way, where there's the restoration. Directly after this is when you have the restoration of the family

and the restoration of Jacob's sons and Jacob and John. And you do see a beautiful picture, right? And so the significance of this, though, is that this is really the first mention of Judah and the Bible. Like, not, I mean, this story of Jacob and, I'm sorry, the story of the sons and Joseph. And now you see Judas fully restored. But when you get to the end of the Bible in Revelation 5, one of my favorite texts in the whole Bible, is this scene that John, the Revelator,

is having this image of this scroll that he wants to look inside of, that we need to know what's inside this scroll because we can't get inside of this scroll, then we're all pretty much doomed. And the problem is, in Revelation 5, is that as he's looking around, there's like this realization that actually you have to have a certain worthiness to be able to open the scroll. And he looks around, he's like, there's nobody worthy. Like, nobody is worthy enough to open this scroll. And so he begins to weep out of desperation, going back to this idea of desperation.

So he's weeping out of desperation, which is exactly where these brothers are in desperation. John on the Alapapapus is weeping in desperation because no one is able to open the scroll who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seal and allowed he saw a mighty angel who says this and no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to even look into it I began to weep loudly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it And one of the elders said to me, I love this, weep no more, behold the lion of the tribe of Judah. Referencing all the way back to this moment, there is going to be a lion that is going to come out of that guy right there, Judah, the one who repented in this moment. Out of his offspring will come a lion, the root of David.

So then David's mentioned as well, who has conquered so that he can open the scroll. and it's seven seals. And then the best part of this is that when you get that image in your mind of this lion from the tribe of Judah, the first thing I think of because I've seen Narnia is Aslan. And like, you know,

Aslan, you don't mess with that dude. Like he's like, he shows up, you know, it's going to get scorched earth because the lion is here. You just don't play around with lions because they'll eat you and kill you. So whatever picture that you have in your mind, it should be a picture of sovereignty and power.

But when John turns to look at this lion, that's what it says. In between the throne of the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a lamb. Think about that. A lamb standing as though it had been slain. And so he says, look at the lion, but when he turns to look at the lion, he actually sees a land that had been slain, but he was what he was standing, so he had resurrected. So you're seeing like this full picture of what God's accomplishing in human history.

And so the significance of this moment, the significance of Judah, cannot be overestimated, in my opinion. Have you seen that perspective picture where you look at it and it looks like a line, then you turn your head a little bit and it turns into the lamb. I think about the exact same thing

you were doing there. I want to read this text in our last few minutes here because it's so powerful. This is Genesis 453. Joseph said to his brothers, I am Joseph. He just can't hold it anymore.

And he's moved to John Luke's point earlier by this repentant act. That's what moves Joseph to finally say. And then look at his first question. Is my father still living? Because, you know, they've been doing this cat and mouse back and forth, and he hadn't even been able to ask about the dad.

He's acting like he didn't even know who they are. But his brothers were not able to answer to him because they were terrified at his presence. Can you imagine this moment? You talk about a moment. All of a sudden, the reveal is here. This is the one we sold into slavery. And now they've had all this back and forth and all this. They have no idea.

This is Joseph. No. Joseph says to his brothers, and I love this, isn't this just exactly what happened with his dad and Esau, come close to me. When they had done so, he said, I'm your brother, Joseph, the one you sold into Egypt. And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you. For two years now, there's been a famine in the land, and for the next five years, they will not be plowing and reaping. but God sent me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by great deliverance.

So the idea was, I was put here to sustain even you. And he realizes this in the moment. I don't think he knew this until the moment. He puts it all together, but it's a moment of forgiveness rather than vengeance that changes everything. Do you guys remember what the call of and the purpose of man was in Genesis 126? Let us make man in our image. And then once he made him, what did he tell him to do? Go forth, be fruitful, and multiply.

And so do the earth and fill it. Yeah. And then, so think about that as we close here and why this matters to the story of Joseph, because that was what God told man to do. Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth. And then you have in Genesis of 9 when after he floods the earth, you know, he tells Noah and those guys, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. And then you get the story of Joseph.

Well, then you get to the book of Exodus. and listen to the way Exodus starts. It gives all the names of the sons of Israel who came to Egypt with Jacob, the story we just told you. This is how Exodus starts. I love this. This is why I want to exit next.

But you get to vote. But you get to vote. Put your vote in. And then Joseph was already in Egypt because of you know why. Verse 6, then Joseph died. And then all of his brothers of that generation. But the people of Israel,

listen to what they did. They were fruitful. and multiplied greatly or increased greatly, they multiplied and grew exceedingly strong so that the land was filled with them. So what you're seeing here is the exact, God is like, this is happening, okay? They're in Egypt, and they're doing the very thing

that the humans were commanded to do, and they're filling the earth, they're multiplying and subduing the land. And that's what, and then, but then what happens is, Favre comes in, the death work comes in, says, I have to stop the plan of God. Spoiler alert, Fero is dead. He didn't win. Yeah, I mean, he doesn't stop.

He went up on the bottom of the Red Sea. But that's why I want to do that next. But we are out of time. So look, guys, we really want you to join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy Power by Hillsdale. You're going to get a lot out of this. Make sure you go to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com to sign up at no cost to take the classes with us. Yeah, Hillsdale is really cool as an institution. It's a Christian liberal art school, and they do not take any money from the federal government, zero dollars, which is kind of unusual, and one of the reasons we trust them and trust these courses. Yeah, zero, not one red cent, not a penny. True freedom.

True freedom. Yeah, that's why we want to thank any of the sponsors that are donors at Hillsdale. That's who makes these courses possible. They're free. Hillsdale wants to educate America. So, like, we're four people who are actually taking the course on Genesis. and hopefully exits next. I'd love you all to join us. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy Powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to Unashamed for Hillsdale.com and sign up.

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